MAGA与情报界的“使命”

意识形态是智慧的大敌。

Ideology is the enemy of intelligence.

如果你是个意识形态主义者，你的思维就已经定型了。

If you're an ideologue, your mind is made up.

你不想被事实所困扰。

You don't wanna be confused with facts.

MAGA运动及其对特朗普总统的忠诚可能会危及中央情报局的使命。

The MAGA movement and its loyalty to president Trump could compromise the mission of the CIA.

普利策奖得主、记者蒂姆·韦纳在其新书《使命：21世纪的中情局》中如是说。

So says Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Tim Weiner, author of the recent book, The Mission, The CIA in the Twenty First Century.

我是萨莎·普法伊弗，代替玛丽·路易斯·凯利主持节目。

I'm Sasha Pfeiffer, in for Mary Louise Kelly.

这里是NPR的《方法与来源》栏目。

This is Sources and Methods from NPR.

意识形态只是韦纳在其现代中情局历史著作中提出的诸多挑战之一。

Ideology represents just one of the challenges Weiner lays out in his history of the modern CIA.

另一个挑战是技术。

Another is technology.

仅凭一本假护照和一套掩护故事就能让间谍混过去的时代已经一去不复返了。

Gone are the days when a fake passport and a cover story are all a spy needs to get by.

在这个摄像头无处不在、虹膜扫描仪和人工智能盛行的时代，一个有抱负的情报官员该怎么做？

So what is an ambitious intelligence officer to do in this era of cameras everywhere, of retina scanners, of AI?

在揭晓答案之前，提醒一下这是我们本周唯一的一期节目。

Before we get to the answer, a heads up that this is our only episode this week.

我们将因感恩节假期暂停更新，并于12月4日回归常规周四档节目。

We're off for the Thanksgiving holiday and back with our regular Thursday episode on December 4.

现在有请蒂姆·韦纳与玛丽·路易丝·凯利对话。

And now here's Tim Weiner with Mary Louise Kelly.

如今间谍活动的难度增加了多少？

How much harder is it these days for a spy to spy?

这是情报史上从未有过的挑战——要知道谍报活动可以追溯到26个世纪前孙子撰写《孙子兵法》的时代。

It's a challenge unlike any in the history of espionage, which goes back to when Sun Tzu wrote the art of war 26 centuries ago.

是啊。

Yeah.

孙子说过，知己知彼。

And Sun Tzu said, know your enemy.

问题是，你的敌人也了解你。

Well, the problem is your enemy knows you.

这就是中情局面临的挑战实例。

An example of the challenges facing the CIA.

嗯。

Mhmm.

十二年前，中国间谍和黑客入侵联邦人事管理局，窃取了2200万联邦政府工作人员的护照档案、指纹档案和安全审查表，其中包括为中情局工作的人员。

Twelve years ago, Chinese spies and hackers broke into the federal office of personnel management and stole passport files, fingerprint files, security clearance forms of 22,000,000 people who work for the federal government, including people who work for the CIA.

他们用从国际机场窃取的视网膜扫描数据，对这些信息进行了全面分析。

They crunched this data with, retinal scans, that they stole through from, international airports, crunched it all up.

如果你是一名以卧底身份抵达达累斯萨拉姆、北京或其他多个外国首都的中情局官员，很可能会遇到中国特工对你说：嘿，乔。

And if you are a CI officer arriving undercover in Dar Es Salaam or Beijing or any other of a number of foreign capitals, you are likely as not to be confronted by a Chinese officer saying, hey, Joe.

我知道你是谁。

I know who you are.

我们很清楚你的身份。

We know exactly who you are.

是的。

Yeah.

我想反过来美国也能做同样的事。

I suppose the flip side is that The US can do the same thing.

这对美国的竞争对手和敌对国家来说更难。

It's harder for America's rivals and adversaries.

中国间谍要想在纽约或明尼阿波利斯等地落脚而不被立即发现和跟踪会更困难。

Harder for a Chinese spy to land in, say, New York or Minneapolis and not be immediately spotted and tracked.

没错。

Yeah.

问题在于中国国家安全部的规模大约是中央情报局的20倍。

The problem there is that the Chinese Ministry of State Security is about 20 times bigger than the CIA.

而且中国有意将其监控国家的触角延伸至美国。

And the Chinese have ambitions to project their surveillance state into The United States.

我的意思是，俄罗斯和中国情报机构的区别在于，中国想了解我们，而俄罗斯只想搞垮我们。

I mean, the difference between the Russian and the Chinese services is that the Chinese want to know us, and the Russians just wanna screw us.

我本想继续追问这点，但我决定换个话题。

I'm tempted to follow-up on there, but I'm gonna I'm gonna move on.

你在书中以9·11事件开篇，讲述它如何促使中情局从冷战时期的间谍使命转向，将自己重塑为一支准军事力量，成为对抗基地组织的先锋。

You open the book with September 11 and how that caused the CIA to pivot from its Cold War era mission of espionage and remake itself into a paramilitary force, the tip of the spear against Al Qaeda.

此后这种态势又回调了多少？

To what degree has the pendulum since swung back?

在反恐压倒一切、将间谍与反间谍传统挤到次要位置的十五年后，

After fifteen years in which counterterrorism swamped pretty much everything and pushed, the traditions of espionage and counterintelligence into the background.

2017年中情局发生了深刻转变。

A profound shift happened at CIA, in the 2017.

中情局迎来了一位新的间谍主管。

There was a new chief of spies at CIA.

他的名字是托马斯·拉库桑。

His name, Thomas Rakusan.

他的祖籍是捷克。

His roots are Czech.

俄国人开进布拉格镇压捷克斯洛伐克民众反抗苏联压迫时，他才九岁。

He was nine years old when the Russians rolled into Prague to crush the popular resistance to Soviet oppression in Czechoslovakia.

他对俄国人的敌意是刻在骨子里的。

His, feelings about the Russians were bread in the bones.

他召集了中情局最优秀的特工——那些在反恐领域奉献了一代人光阴的顶尖间谍们，对他们说：听着。

And he called in his top people, the top spies at the CIA who had spent, you know, a generation in counterterrorism and said, listen.

俄国人通过操纵选举帮助唐纳德·特朗普当选。

The Russians manipulated our election to help elect Donald Trump.

我们如何确保这种事不再发生？

How do we make sure this never happens again?

他要求这些人将反恐行动中磨砺出的本领，

And he told them to take the talents that they had honed in targeting terrorists.

说到锁定目标，我指的不是把弹头对准额头。

And by targeting, I don't mean putting warheads on foreheads.

我的意思是查明他们的身份、生活方式、所爱之人、所恨之人，并努力招募他们。

I mean figuring out who they are, how they live, whom they love, who they hate, with an effort, to recruit them.

而且

And

将这些才能转向俄罗斯人，针对俄罗斯间谍、外交官和寡头。

turn those talents on the Russians, on Russian spies, diplomats, and oligarchs.

四年后的结果是，中情局渗透进克里姆林宫，窃取了弗拉基米尔·普京的乌克兰作战计划，并向持怀疑态度的世界宣告俄罗斯即将发动进攻。

And the result of this, four years later, is that the CIA penetrated the Kremlin and stole Vladimir Putin's war plans for Ukraine and told the world, a skeptical world, that Russia was about to attack.

让我插一句，因为我想就乌克兰问个单独的问题。

Let me jump in because I wanna ask I wanna ask a separate question on Ukraine.

但在那之前，回到你关于中国人想了解我们而俄罗斯人只想搞垮我们的论断——这是相互的吗？

But before I do, to go back to your, assertion that the Chinese want to know us, the Russians just wanna screw us, is it mutual?

嗯，搞垮敌人绝对是这个等式的一部分。

Well, screw thy enemy, is definitely part of the equation here.

自1947年中央情报局成立以来，它一直试图反对、削弱、颠覆俄罗斯在全球的帝国主义行径。

Ever since the CIA was founded in 1947, it has, tried to oppose blunt, undermine, subvert Russian imperialism in the world.

冷战结束后，这方面的努力有所退居次要地位。

That took, kind of a back seat, after the end of the Cold War.

中情局局长曾指示情报官员要对俄罗斯人友善，比如在反恐等共同利益领域与他们合作。

CI directors told the CI's officers to be nice to the Russians, to, like, work with them on, fields of mutual interest like counterterrorism.

一位中情局高级官员告诉我，这就像一个人出去买了只狒狒。

And one senior CIA officer told me that this was like, a guy who goes out, and buys a baboon.

结果狒狒撕烂了他的脸，然后他又出去买了另一只狒狒。

And the baboon rips his face off, and then he goes out and buys another baboon.

俄罗斯人对合作根本不感兴趣。

The Russians were not interested in cooperation.

他们一边和你握手，另一边就掏你的口袋。

They shook your hand with one hand and picked your pocket with the next.

那么让我们回到当下这个时刻。

So let me bring us to this moment.

我们身处2025年，中央情报局再次服务于一位公开质疑该机构领导层及其工作的三军统帅——总统。

We are in 2025, and the CIA again serves a commander in chief, a president, who has openly questioned the agency's leaders and their work.

当你向现任中情局官员询问此事时，会听到怎样的回应？

When you ask current CIA officers about that, what do you hear?

嗯，那种令人心碎作呕的感觉——美国总统已经倒向另一边，加入了威权主义阵营。

Well, the gut wrenching, nauseating feeling that the president of The United States has gone over to the other side and joined the axis of authoritarianism.

局外人很难理解这种感受。

It's hard for an outsider to understand.

当特朗普命令美国在联合国与俄罗斯、朝鲜和伊朗一起投票，反对去年2月24日谴责俄罗斯占领乌克兰的决议时，中情局高层弥漫的那种情绪。

The feeling that went through the high levels of the CIA when Trump ordered The United States to vote with Russia, North Korea, and Iran at the United Nations against a resolution condemning, the Russian occupation of Ukraine last February 24.

这

It's

中情局工作人员是否特别向你提起过那起事件？

Are CIA staffers raised that specifically with you, that incident?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

他们具体说了些什么？

And what what were they saying?

要知道，特朗普在中央情报局下令进行了一场意识形态清洗。

You know, there's an ideological purge that Trump has ordered at CIA.

而现任局长约翰·拉特克利夫——一个MAGA的忠实追随者——已命令那些有二三十年经验的高级官员和分析师另谋出路。

And the current director, John Ratcliffe, who is a MAGA acolyte, has told top officers and analysts, with twenty or thirty years experience to head for the exits, find a new line of work.

他直接解雇了两年内所有新入职的员工，即中情局在2023和24年招聘的每一个人。

He dismissed two years' worth of new hires, everybody the CIA had hired in 2023 and '24.

意识形态是情报工作的天敌。

And ideology is the enemy of intelligence.

如果你是个意识形态主义者，你的思维就已经固化了。

If you're an ideologue, your mind is made up.

你不想被事实所困扰。

You don't wanna be confused with facts.

玛丽·路易丝，这对中情局乃至整个美国国家安全来说都是非常困难且危险的时期。

And it's a very difficult, dangerous time for the CIA and indeed for all of American national security, Mary Louise.

国家安全机构——五角大楼、国家情报总监办公室、FBI及其国家安全情报部门——现在都掌握在皮特·赫格西特、图尔西·加巴德、卡什·帕特尔手中，而CIA则由约翰·拉德克利夫掌控。

You've got the instruments of national security, the Pentagon, the directorate of national intelligence, the FBI and its national security intelligence divisions in the hands of Pete Hegsitt, Tulsi Gabbard, Kash Patel, and the CIA in the hands of John Radcliffe.

这些人根本不是专业人士。

These people are not professionals.

他们都是外行。

They are amateurs.

更糟的是，他们是一群马屁精，会不择手段地讨好总统。

And worse, they are toadies who will do anything and say anything to please the president.

你需要情报部门告诉你真相，预警即将到来的危险。

You want an intelligence service to tell you the truth, to warn you about dangers coming over the horizon.

特朗普甚至国务卿卢比奥都公开说过：去他的情报。

Trump and indeed secretary of state Rubio have openly said, screw intelligence.

我们不在乎情报部门说什么。

We don't care what the intelligence services say.

我们自有对现实的判断。

We have our own facts in reality.

如果情报部门，如果中情局与此相冲突，那就让他们见鬼去吧。

And if if the intelligence services, if the CIA conflict with that, the hell with them.

我想区分一下你刚才说的有多少是基于报道的个人观点，有多少是现在机构工作人员告诉你的情况。

I wanna separate out how much of what you just said is your view based on reporting, but your view, and how much is what you are hearing from people who are working at the agency now.

我必须说人们正试图保持低调以免惹祸上身，这对全球最著名的情报机构来说可不是好状态。

I have to say that people are trying to keep their heads down less less they get chopped off, which is not a good posture, for, the world's most famous intelligence service.

你提到了中情局局长约翰·拉特克利夫。

You mentioned CIA director John Ratcliffe.

他废除的事项中包括长期存在的多元化员工队伍要求。

Among the things he's done away with are long standing mandates for a diverse workforce.

这当然与特朗普政府正在全政府范围内废除DEI（多元化、公平与包容）项目的行动一致。

This, of course, as the Trump administration is working to dismantle DEI programs across the government.

蒂姆·维纳，这对中情局是否构成了特定挑战？

Does it pose, Tim Weiner, specific challenges for the CIA?

中情局需要多元化员工队伍的原因是：派一个看起来刚从威奇塔市下车的白人男性进入中国、非洲等白人占少数的国家，这不是好的情报工作方式。

The reason the CIA wants a diverse workforce is that it is not good tradecraft to send a white guy who looks like he just got off the bus from Wichita into countries like China, into Africa, into countries where white people are the minority.

这不是好的伪装。

It's not good cover.

你需要的人员不仅要具备外貌特征，还要掌握目标国家的语言和国情知识。

You want people who have not only the look, but the languages and the country knowledge of the countries they're spying upon.

多样性曾是中情局的一大优势。

Diversity was one of the CI's superpowers.

这就是他们不被发现的方式。

It's how they don't get caught.

关于你的消息来源有个问题。

A question on your sources.

我负责情报条线报道多年。

I covered the intelligence beat for years.

我使用过大量匿名消息源，这是为了让人们能更自由地发言，并保护那些冒着失业风险与我交谈的人。

I used plenty of anonymous sources to do so, and that was to allow people to speak more freely and to protect people who were risking their jobs to talk to me.

你在这本书中没有使用任何匿名消息源。

You used no anonymous sources in this book.

你是怎么做到的？

How did you make that work?

嗯，我从事这行已经三十八年了。

Well, I've been at this for thirty eight years.

如果你在一个领域坚持足够久，人们就会在一定程度上信任你。

And if you hang around long enough, people come to trust you, up to a point.

而且我认为，如果过于随意地使用匿名消息来源，读者凭什么要信任你？

Also, I believe that, if you use anonymous sources too freely, why should a reader trust you?

如果人们愿意公开身份，这将增强读者对作者的信任和信心。

If people are on the record, that would instill trust in the reader and in, their faith in, the author.

但比如，你是怎么说服现任秘密行动处负责人接受采访的？

But how, for example, did you persuade the sitting chief of the clandestine service to talk?

这个人已经潜伏了三十多年。

This is a guy who spent more than thirty years undercover.

他从未接受过任何采访。

He's never given an interview.

我开口问了。

I asked.

促使我请求采访汤姆·西尔维斯特的原因——他在今年阵亡将士纪念日刚卸任中情局间谍主管一职

The thing that made me ask for an interview with Tom Sylvester, who stepped down this past Memorial Day as the CIA's chief of spies

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

是因为中情局有个内部播客，他以'汤姆·S'的化名（非全名）出镜，接受了一次非凡的访谈，这让我印象深刻。

Is that the CIA has an in house podcast, and he appeared on it as Tom s, not in full name, and gave just a remarkable interview, and it struck me.

于是我直接致电中情局公共事务办公室。

So I called up the CI's office of public affairs.

对。

Yes.

他们确实有这个部门。

It has one.

然后提出了采访请求。

And, request an interview.

请求已获批准。

Request granted.

这本书里有没有你希望能讲述却因消息来源不愿公开而无法记录的故事？

Are there stories you wish you could tell in this book and you couldn't get your source to go on the record?

我真希望能了解更多关于中情局如何在中国重建其招募的色情特工网络的情况，大约十四年前，这些特工中有数十人被捕、遭受酷刑、监禁甚至杀害。

I wish I knew more about how the CI tried to rebuild its network of recruited porn agents in China after dozens of them were rolled up, arrested, tortured, imprisoned, and killed, back about fourteen years ago.

我也希望能更了解当前的局势。

And I wish I knew more about what is going on right now.

让情报机构掌握在独裁者手中是极其危险的，我真心想知道，中情局内部是否真的存在对特朗普外交政策的抵制。

It is a very dangerous thing to have an intelligence service in the hands of an autocrat, and I wish I knew, if there is, in fact, resistance at the CIA, to Trump's foreign policies.

中情局是美国外交政策的工具。

The CIA is an instrument of American foreign policy.

除了极少数例外，它都会执行总统的指令。

With the rarest exceptions, it does what the president tells it to do.

我很想知道兰利总部内部是否存在抵抗力量。

I'd like to know if there's a resistance inside Langley.

我们俩都这么想。

You and me both.

最后让我们回到最初的问题：科技如何使得间谍活动和收集对手的人力情报比以往任何时候都更具挑战性。

To end by looping back to where we began and the questions of how technology has made it so much more challenging than it ever was to try to spy, to try to collect human intelligence on your adversary.

你现在已经写了几本关于中情局历史的书，这本涵盖了二十一世纪前二十五年的内容。

You've now written a a couple of histories of the CIA, this one covering the first twenty five years of this twenty first century.

你认为二十五年后还会存在一个形态可被识别的中情局吗？

Do you think there'll be a CIA around in anything resembling recognizable form twenty five years from now?

这取决于我们如何度过接下来的三年半。

That depends how we get through the next three and a half years.

美国总统对情报工作理念怀有不可调和的敌意。

The president of The United States is implacably hostile, to the idea of intelligence.

他认为中情局是'深层政府'的核心——这显然大错特错。

He thinks the CI is the capital, of the deep state, which it is decidedly not.

玛丽·路易丝，他们把间谍称为'世界上最古老的第二职业'是有原因的。

There's a reason, Mary Louise, that they call, spying the world's second oldest profession.

自从约书亚攻陷耶利哥城以来，间谍活动就一直存在。

It's been around since Joshua took Jericho.

间谍行为似乎深植于我们的骨子里。

Spying is somehow inbred in, our bones.

我们渴望知晓秘密。

We want to know secrets.

我们想知道别人在想什么。

We wanna know what the other person thinks.

而且，我无法想象一个没有情报机构预警远方威胁的美国能成为超级大国。

And, I cannot imagine America as a superpower without an intelligence service to warn of dangers over the horizon.

蒂姆·韦纳的著作名为《使命：21世纪的中情局》。

Tim Weiner's book is called The Mission, The CIA in the Twenty First Century.

该访谈的部分内容曾于七月在《All Things Considered》节目中播出。

A version of that interview appeared on All Things Considered in July.

再次说明，本周剩余时间因感恩节休假，我们NPR全体同仁感谢您今年对我们工作的支持。

Once again, we're off the rest of this week for Thanksgiving, and all of us at NPR, thank you for supporting our work this year.

我是萨莎·普法伊弗。

I'm Sasha Pfeiffer.

我们下周将带着更多来自NPR的消息来源和方法回归。

We're back next week with more sources and methods from NPR.