为什么音乐能打动我们？与罗伯特·扎托雷博士对谈

你听到贝多芬第九交响曲的合唱部分时会起鸡皮疙瘩吗？

Do you get chills when you hear the chorale from Beethoven's ninth symphony?

塞缪尔·巴伯的《弦乐柔板》会让你感动得流泪吗？

Does Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings make you tear up?

有没有一些歌能带你回到另一个时代，不管是披头士、警察乐队还是涅槃乐队的音乐？

Are there songs that transport you to another time, whether it's music by the Beatles or the police or Nirvana?

有些音乐是不是让你感到开心，想跟着跳舞？

Does some music make you happy and want to dance?

对我们很多人来说，音乐能触动我们最深的情感和记忆，但对另一些人来说，音乐就是一般般。

For many of us, music taps into our deepest emotions and memories, and yet for others, music is just meh.

在过去的几十年里，心理学家和其他研究人员开始探索为什么音乐对我们影响如此深刻。

Over the last several decades, psychologists and other researchers have begun to explore why music affects us so profoundly.

当我们听音乐、唱歌或演奏乐器时，大脑里发生了什么？

What happens in the brain when we listen to music or when we sing or play an instrument?

为什么有些音乐让我们起鸡皮疙瘩，而其他音乐却让我们无动于衷？

Why does some music give us goosebumps while other pieces leave us cold?

另一方面，为什么有少数人对音乐几乎没有任何情感反应呢？

On the other hand, why do a small number of people experience almost no emotional response to music at all?

研究音乐和大脑，又能让我们对感知、记忆、语言和认知这些更广泛的问题有什么新的认识呢？

And what can studying music and the brain teach us about broader questions of perception, memory, language, and cognition?

欢迎收听《心理学之声》，这是美国心理学会的旗舰播客，探讨心理科学与日常生活之间的联系。

Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, the flagship podcast of the American Psychological Association that examines the links between psychological science and everyday life.

我是金·米尔斯。

I'm Kim Mills.

今天的嘉宾是博士。

My guest today is Doctor.

罗伯特·扎托雷，麦吉尔大学神经外科系的教授，同时在蒙特利尔神经科学研究所担任听觉与认知神经科学领域的加拿大研究主席。

Robert Zatorre, a professor in the Department of Neurology and Neurosurgery at McGill University, who holds a Canada Research Chair in Auditory and Cognitive Neuroscience at the Montreal Neurological Institute.

几十年来，他一直是音乐神经科学领域的先驱，研究大脑如何处理音乐、语音和声音，以及为什么音乐能引发如此强烈的情感体验。

For decades, he's been a pioneer in the neuroscience of music, studying how the brain processes music, speech and sound, and why music can evoke such powerful emotional experiences.

他的研究帮助解释了大脑的听觉系统和奖赏系统如何协同工作，从而产生音乐带来的愉悦感。

His research has helped to explain how the brain's auditory and reward systems work together to create musical pleasure.

他研究过很多话题，从音乐快感缺失——也就是无法从音乐中获得愉悦——到音乐与语言之间的关系。

He's examined topics ranging from musical anhedonia, the inability to derive pleasure from music, to the relationship between music and language.

他发表了超过三百五十篇科学研究论文，还写了一本书，叫《从感知到愉悦：音乐神经科学及其魅力》。

He's author of more than three fifty scientific research papers, as well as the book From Perception to Pleasure, The Neuroscience of Music and Why We Love It.

扎托尔博士，

Doctor.

感谢你今天来做客。

Zatorre, thank you for joining me today.

金，非常感谢你邀请我。

Thank you very much for having me, Kim.

我们先从一个宏观的问题开始吧。

Let's start with a big picture question.

我之前在采访中读到，你说音乐触及了所有认知功能。

Read in a previous interview that you said music touches every cognitive function there is.

你能详细谈谈吗？

Can you talk about that?

音乐是如何触及人类认知的这么多不同方面的？

How does music touch so many different aspects of human cognition?

我之所以这么说，部分原因是当人们问我，你知道，从科学角度研究音乐有什么价值时，

Part of the reason I say that is is when people ask me, well, you know, what's the value of studying music scientifically?

我常常喜欢指出，音乐不仅仅是声音的模式。

I often like to point out that music is not merely a pattern of sounds.

当然，它确实是声音的模式，但这只是开始。

It is that, of course, but that's just the start.

所以我们可以用音乐来理解听觉系统。

And so we can use music to understand the auditory system.

没错。

Absolutely.

这是一个关键特点。

That's a key feature.

但同时，音乐还涉及许多其他功能。

But at the same time, music engages many, many other functions.

比如说，在一个日常场景里，你在等电梯，有人走过，嘴里吹着口哨，哼着一段旋律。

So if you consider, for example, an everyday situation, you're waiting for an elevator and somebody walks by and they're whistling a tune.

你认出了这段旋律，尽管你以前从没听过有人用口哨吹它。

And you recognize the tune even though you have never heard it being whistled before.

你知道那是什么曲子。

You know what it is.

你立刻想到去年夏天，你和好久没见的好朋友在海滩时，这首歌正在播放，这勾起了你的回忆。

You immediately think of the fact that it was being played last summer when you were at the beach with your best friend that you hadn't seen for a while, this brings back memories.

同时，你开始随着想象中的音乐轻轻跺脚。

At the same time, you start to tap your foot as you imagine the music.

所以即使音乐已经消失，那个人也走过去了，你仍然能在脑海里听到它。

So even though the music is gone, the person walked by, you can still actually hear it in your mind's ear.

当你这样做的时候，你可能会跺脚，可能会随着音乐的节奏摇摆，这调动了你的运动系统，而且这可能也是一种非常愉悦的体验。

As you do so, you might tap your foot, you might sway to the rhythm of the music, engaging your motor system, and it may also just be a very pleasurable experience.

你可能会发现自己心情变好了，仅仅因为想起了那段音乐。

You may actually find that you're in a better mood just because you were thinking of that music.

所以想想刚才那一系列认知操作。

So just think of all the list of cognitive operations that went through there.

有某种听觉处理。

There's some kind of auditory processing.

有运动系统的参与。

There's some engagement with the motor system.

有记忆系统的参与。

There's an engagement with the memory system.

还有情感反应、愉悦反应、情绪反应等等。

There's an affective response, hedonic response, an emotional response, etc.

所以这就是为什么我喜欢说，你知道，它调动了整个大脑，因为它是一种非常复杂的人类活动，不仅仅停留在声音层面，而且从这个角度来看，我觉得它真的非常有趣，因为它太丰富了。

So this is why I like to say, you know, it engages the whole brain in the sense that it is a very complex type of human activity that doesn't stop just at the level of sound, but it it is really, I think, remarkably interesting from that perspective because it is so rich.

你在研究中发现，音乐和愉悦感之间的联系可以追溯到大脑的奖赏系统。

Now you found in your research that there's a link between music and pleasure that can be traced to the brain's reward system.

这是怎么运作的呢？

How does that work?

当我们享受听音乐的时候，大脑里到底发生了什么？

What's happening in the brain when we're enjoying listening to music?

这是我们研究中非常非常重要的一部分。

So this is a very, very, important, part of our our research.

多年来，心理学家和生理学家一直在研究所谓的奖赏系统。

For for years, Psychologists and physiologists had studied the so called reward system.

这是大脑中的一系列结构，已知对奖赏非常重要。

This is a series of structures in the brain that are known to be very important for reward.

那么在经典心理学意义上，奖赏是什么意思呢？

So what does reward mean in the classical psychology sense?

它指的是，你知道，一种强化物。

It means, you know, a reinforcer.

它指的是能促使行为重复的刺激。

It means stimulus that causes the behavior to be repeated.

但其中也包含享乐的部分。

But there's also a hedonic part to it.

虽然行为主义者不喜欢谈论这个，但认知心理学家确实喜欢讨论情绪。

So although the behaviorists didn't like to talk about that, cognitive psychologists do like to talk about emotions.

当有奖励性刺激时，通常都会带来愉悦感。

And when there is a rewarding stimulus, it is typically pleasurable.

你会感到一种快乐。

You feel a sense of pleasure.

这在某种程度上是积极的。

It's positive in some way.

所有这些效应都被追溯到多巴胺能神经元，特别是在纹状体中的某些结构，纹状体是大脑深处的一个核团，还有其他大脑区域，比如眶额皮层、杏仁核和腹侧被盖区。

And all of these sorts of effects have been traced to dopaminergic neurons in certain structures in the striatum in particular, which is a deep nucleus in the brain, as well as other other parts of the brain, the orbital frontal cortex and the amygdala and ventral tegmental area.

这是一个完整的复杂回路。

There's a whole complex circuitry.

大约二十五年前，我们发现音乐实际上激活了与其他奖励性刺激相同的奖励系统。

Now, about twenty five years ago, we discovered that music actually activates the same reward system as had been identified for other types of rewarding stimuli.

所以基本上，有一个单一的奖励系统，它既对初级奖励做出反应，比如食物。

So essentially, there's a single reward system that responds both to primary rewards, things like food, for example.

如果你拿一只饥饿的动物，把电极插到它脑子里，测量它对食物的反应，你会发现当食物送到时，那些多巴胺神经元非常活跃。

If you take a hungry animal and you measure its response to food by putting an electrode into its brain, you'll see that those dopamine neurons are very active when the food is delivered.

当时没人真正想到，包括我们自己，像音乐这样完全抽象的东西也能激活这个系统。

Nobody really knew, including us when we discovered it, that a completely abstract stimulus like music could also engage that system.

但确实，我们用脑成像技术发现了这一点。

But indeed, that is what we found using brain imaging techniques.

几年后，我们进一步证明，这种反应确实是由多巴胺神经元驱动的。

And then a few years later, we were able to demonstrate that the response is actually driven by dopamine neurons.

我们知道这一点，是因为我们可以用技术无创地测量大脑中的多巴胺反应。

We know this because we can use, technology to measure dopamine response in the brain noninvasively.

我们有正电子发射断层扫描，这是一种测量大脑化学活动的方法。

We have positive transmission tomography, which is a way of measuring the chemical activity in the brain.

最近，我们和西班牙的一些同事做了一些实验，通过给志愿者服用某些药物来药理学地调节多巴胺水平，这些药物要么提升多巴胺系统，要么抑制它。我们发现，在服用多巴胺前体后听音乐，确实会带来更多愉悦感。

And more recently, with some colleagues, in Spain, we did some experiments where we manipulated the dopamine levels pharmacologically by giving volunteers certain, drugs that would either elevate or, inhibit the dopamine system, and we found that indeed music given after the administration of the dopamine precursor actually gave more pleasure.

而当你服用多巴胺抑制剂时，愉悦感确实会减少。

When you gave the dopamine inhibitor, it actually resulted in less pleasure.

所以这就把音乐和那些更偏向生物本能的东西联系起来了，我觉得这引出了非常有趣的问题：我们的大脑到底是怎么能够对音乐这种完全抽象的东西产生反应的呢？

So this links music to all of these more biologically given sorts of stimuli and I think raises very interesting questions about how is it that our brains are able to respond to this completely abstract stimulus that we call music?

而且顺便说一句，不只是音乐，其他艺术形式也一样。

And it's not just music, by the way, it's other art forms as well.

还有，这种非常原始的、跟生存相关的机制是怎么被调动起来的呢？

And how is it that this very kind of primal survival related mechanism is brought into play?

我觉得这是我们，还有全世界很多实验室，都在积极研究的一个课题。

And I think that's that's a topic, you know, that we're very actively pursuing, we and many other laboratories around the world.

那你刚才讲的是对音乐的欣赏，听到音乐时的反应，那如果是演奏音乐呢？

So what you described just was about appreciation of music, reaction to hearing music, but what about producing music?

大脑里有没有一个负责理解音乐的结构？

Is there a structure in the brain that's responsible for musical comprehension?

其实，听觉系统和运动系统之间有着非常紧密的联系。

Well, there's actually a very, very tight coupling between the auditory system and the motor system.

比如，如果我们测量大脑运动区域（就是控制肌肉的部分）和听觉区域（就是处理声音的部分）的脑电波振荡，我们会发现这些振荡是高度同步的。

So we we can see that if we measure, for example, brain oscillations in the motor part of the brain, the part that controls the muscles, and the auditory part of the brain, the part that is responsible for processing sound, we see that the oscillations are very strongly coupled.

听觉和运动系统之间是同步的，这种同步性在视觉和运动系统之间就不太会出现。

They're in phase with each other between the auditory and the motor system in a way that doesn't quite happen, for example, if you look at the visual on the motor system.

所以视觉和运动系统的耦合不如听觉和运动系统那么强。

So they're they're not as strongly coupled as they are for the auditory and motor.

我们认为这意味着感知声音和产生声音之间有着非常紧密的联系。

And we think that this means that there's a very close relationship between perceiving sounds and generating sounds.

你想想看，基本上你听到的每一个声音都是某种动作的结果。

If you think about it for a moment, basically, every sound that you hear is the outcome of some action.

如果没有动作发生，就不会有声音，除了极少数例外，比如雷声。

There is there can't be sound if no action has occurred with some very, very slight exceptions like, I don't know, thunder.

即便是雷声，云层里也有某种动作。

And even then, there's some action in the cloud.

分子之间也有某种相互作用。

There's some kind of interaction between the molecules.

所以如果环境完全静止，没有任何变化，那就会是一个寂静的环境。

So if you have a completely static environment where nothing is changing, it'll be a silent environment.

所以从物理层面来看，这两者之间已经有很紧密的联系了。

So already at the level of sort of physics, there's a close link there.

再从生物学的角度想，很多很多动作——虽然不是全部，但很多动作都会产生声音，包括我们说话的时候。

And if you think about it from terms of biology, many, many actions, not all, but many actions produce sound, including when we speak.

现在，我就在协调地移动嘴唇、舌头和喉头，来发出特定类型的声音。

Right now I'm moving my lips and my tongue and my larynx in a coordinated manner to produce certain types of sounds.

我走路的时候也一样。

Same thing when I walk.

我走路时，你能听到脚步声。

When I walk, you hear footsteps.

如果我拍手，你也能听到声音，对吧？

If I clap, you hear sounds Right?

所以所有这些声音都是不同动作的结果。

So all those sounds are the outcome of different kinds of actions.

我觉得从生物学的角度来看，这是非常非常根本的东西。

And I think if we think about it from sort of a biological perspective, this is something that's very, very fundamental.

从生命的最初时刻起，我们就听到自己发出的声音。

The from the first moments of life, we hear sounds that we produce ourselves.

对吧？

Right?

婴儿从子宫里出来的第一件事是什么？

What's the first thing that an infant does upon emerging from the womb?

哭。

It's great.

如果健康的话，就会哭。

If it's healthy, that's what it will do.

对吧？

Right?

所以，从第一刻起，你就在激活你的声道并发出声音。

So literally, from the first moment, you're activating your vocal tract and producing sound.

所以我认为，在最基本的层面上，这就是运动、动作和声音之间的联系。

And so this, I think, is kind of a very, very basic level is the link between movement, action, and sound.

而且，这些东西还会互相影响。

And also, these things influence each other.

所以，如果我演奏乐器或者说话，我做的动作会产生特定的声音。

So if I'm playing a musical instrument or if I'm speaking, action that I make will produce a certain sound.

但比如说，如果我演奏乐器，我心里会有一个目标。

But if I'm playing an instrument, for example, I have a certain target in mind.

声音应该是某个音符，带有特定的音色。

The sound is supposed to be a certain note with a certain tone.

所以当我演奏的时候，比如说拉小提琴，当我用弓划过琴弦时，我会听那个声音。

So as I'm playing, let's say I'm playing a violin, as I'm drawing the bow across the strings, I'm listening to the sound.

如果那不是我要的，我的听觉系统就会反馈给运动系统，说，不对。

If it's not what I wanted, I will my auditory system will feed back to the motor system and say, no.

你得调整你的颤音，或者弓要压得更重，或者诸如此类。

You have to adjust your vibrato or you have to press harder with the bow or what have you.

所以这是一个持续的互动过程。

So it's a constant interplay.

声音会影响动作。

Sound influences the action.

动作产生声音。

The action generates a sound.

所以这两者之间是一个反馈循环。

So it's it's a feedback loop between the two between the two things.

这对音乐来说确实如此。

And that's true, you know, for music.

对说话也是如此。

It's true for speech.

对其他可能产生声音的活动也是如此。

It's true for other activities that might, also generate sounds.

回到愉悦和音乐的问题上，有些人，虽然不多，从听音乐中得不到任何愉悦，这被称为音乐快感缺失。

Well, getting back to the question of of pleasure and music, there are some people, albeit not a lot, who don't get any pleasure from listening to music, the musical anhedonia, it's called.

这是你研究过的领域。

This is something that you've studied.

是什么原因导致的？如果一个人对音乐毫无感觉但想享受它，能克服吗？

What causes it, and can it be overcome by somebody who doesn't get anything from music but would like to enjoy it?

这是一个非常有趣的现象。

This is a very interesting phenomenon.

我们大约十五年前发现的，因为在那之前，包括我们在内，所有人都认为……

We discovered it about fifteen years ago or so because prior to that, I mean, everyone, including us, we had the assumption.

当然，每个人都喜欢音乐。

Well, of course, everyone loves music.

对吧？

Right?

然后我们开始更认真地思考这个问题。

And then we started thinking about it more seriously.

作为科学家，你应该质疑自己的假设。

And as scientists, you're supposed to question your own assumptions.

对吧？

Right?

这本来就是科学的一部分。

That's supposed to be a part of science.

我有很多优秀的学生，他们经常质疑我的假设。

And I have very good students, and they will often question my assumptions.

这是他们的职责所在。

That's part of their job.

我也鼓励他们这么做。

And I like to encourage them to do that.

然后其中一个学生问我，我们怎么知道每个人都喜欢音乐呢？

And so one of them sort of said to me, well, how do we know that everyone likes music?

我当时就说，哦，这个我还真不知道。

And I was like, Oh, well, I don't know.

我只是理所当然地这么认为。

I'm just taking it for granted.

那不如我们实际去调查一下吧。

Well, why don't we actually find out?

长话短说，我们设计了一系列问卷。

So to make a long story short, we developed a series of questionnaires.

我们到实地去调查。

We went out into the field.

我们测试了几千人，想弄清楚这个问题。

We tested a few thousand people to figure it out.

结果让我们很惊讶，大约有百分之二的人，他们其他方面完全健康，真的没什么问题。

And what we found really to my surprise is that about something like two percent of people or so who are otherwise completely healthy, there's really nothing wrong with them.

我不完全把这称为一种障碍，因为……

I don't refer to this as a disorder exactly because it's.

他们自己觉得没什么问题，你知道的。

They don't think there's anything wrong with them, and you know you.

我觉得这是神经多样性的一部分。

I think it's it's part of neurodiversity.

其实，我认为不应该把它看作一种负面的东西。

Actually, I don't think it's should be looked on as a as a negative sort of thing.

但这些人说他们对音乐没有愉悦感，但重要的是，他们对其他一切事物都能感受到愉悦。

But these are people who report no pleasure to music, even though importantly, they experience pleasure to everything else.

我之前提到过奖励系统，它会对食物或其他令人愉悦的活动做出反应，比如社交互动、智力体验，当然还有浪漫的爱情和性。

And I mentioned the reward system earlier as responding to, you know, food or other pleasurable activities, including, for example, social interactions, including intellectual sort of experiences, including, of course, romantic love sex.

这些都会激活奖励系统。

These are things that activate the reward system.

所以这些有音乐快感缺失的人，他们对所有这些事物都有反应。

So these people with musical anhedonia, they respond to all those things.

我们通过让他们玩一些非常容易上瘾、可以赢钱的电子游戏来专门测试他们。

We we tested them very specifically by having them play really kind of addictive video games that where you can win some money.

我们知道这会激活奖励系统。

And we know this activates a reward system.

这就是为什么这些游戏会让人上瘾得令人恼火。

This is why those games are annoyingly addictive.

当我们把这些游戏给这些人玩时，他们和其他人一样，也很快就上瘾了。

And when we gave those games to these people, they sort of got hooked on it just like everyone else.

但是当我们给他们播放音乐，并让他们进入脑部扫描仪时，我们发现他们的奖励系统完全没有反应，或者反应非常非常有限。

But when we played music to them and we put them in a brain scanner, we noticed there was no response at all in their reward system or very, very limited.

这正好符合他们在问卷上报告的情况。

And so this is exactly in line with what they report on questionnaires.

当你问他们时，他们会说，当然，我喜欢和朋友一起看电影，然后出去吃顿饭，也许再喝几杯啤酒。

When you ask them, they say, well, of course, I'd like to go watch a movie with my friends, and then I'd like to go out for a meal afterwards and maybe enjoy a few beers.

我有个男朋友，我喜欢和他一起出去玩，等等。

And I have a boyfriend and I like to hang out with him and etcetera.

这些都是生活中正常的乐趣。

These are all the normal pleasures of life.

但是当我和朋友在一起时，他们说，哦，我们去听音乐会吧，我总是完全无感。

But when I'm with my friends and they say, oh, let's go to a concert, I'm always completely blank about it.

然后他们告诉我，哦，你一定要听听这个新出的乐队。

And then they tell me, oh, you have to listen to this new band that just came out.

他们放起音乐，我却完全无动于衷。

And they put the music on, and I'm completely flat.

我告诉他们，不，音乐对我来说就是没什么感觉。

And I tell them, no, music just doesn't do it for me.

所以这很有意思，因为它意味着我们体验音乐的方式，可以和我们之前谈到的愉悦反应分开来看。

And so this is very interesting because it means that way that we experience music can be dissociated from the pleasure response that we talked about earlier.

当我们进一步研究这些音乐快感缺失者的大脑时，我们发现，连接大脑听觉区域和奖励系统的白质纤维，确实比正常情况下要弱一些。

And when we dig further into the brains of these folks with musical anhedonia, what we observe is that literally the connection, the white matter fibers that connect the auditory part of the brain with the reward system, that system is less robust than it normally is.

那条通路的结构不如通常那么完善。

That pathway is not as well structured as it typically is.

所以我们认为这很可能是先天性的。

And so we think this is very likely a congenital sort of effect.

人们通常告诉我们，这是他们记事起就有的情况。

People usually tell us that this is something that they've had ever since they can remember.

不是最近才发生的。

It is not a recent something that happened.

所以就像我说的，我觉得从神经多样性的角度来理解这个问题比较好。

And so like I mentioned, I think it's good to think of it in terms of neurodiversity.

每个人的大脑运作方式都不一样。

People's brains are wired in different ways.

虽然我们大多数人都对音乐有反应，有些人反应特别强烈，我们称他们为“高享乐者”。

And even though most of us are really wired for music, some of us very strongly so, we call them hyper hedonics.

但也有一些人，音乐对他们来说真的无法引起情感上的共鸣。

There are some people for whom music is really not emotionally engaging.

顺便说一下，他们的听觉系统也没有任何问题。

By the way, there's nothing wrong with their auditory system either.

我们当然会检查这一点。

We, of course, check for that.

我们会测试他们分辨不同音调高低的能力，以及类似的东西。

We test for their ability to distinguish the pitch of different tones and and things like that.

所以并不是他们听不出那些模式。

So it's not that they can't hear the patterns.

只是那些模式对他们来说，并不能特别引起情感上的触动。

It's just that the patterns are not especially emotionally engaging for them.

考虑到我们现在对大脑可塑性的理解，有没有办法通过训练来让自己欣赏音乐，如果你对音乐无感的话？

And given the brain's plasticity, as we now understand it, is there a way to train yourself to appreciate music if you are anhedonic?

这个问题问得真好。

That's a really good question.

事实上，我的一个同事现在正在测试这个。

One of my colleagues is in fact, testing that right now.

我对此持怀疑态度，因为如果我说过的那个连接在生理上功能不太正常，那么我认为，至少对我来说，那条通路的缺失表明，这可能不是那么容易训练出来的。

I'm skeptical that it will work because if this connection that I talked about is is physically, you know, not not as functional as normal, then I think, you know, the the the absence of the that pathway suggests that to me at least that, it probably isn't something that's easy to train.

但我必须保持开放的心态，因为我们确实知道这些通路通常可以通过不同的经历得到增强。

But I have to keep an open mind about it because we do know that these pathways often can be, enhanced with different kinds of experience.

所以这是有可能的。

So it is is possible.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我们拭目以待吧。

We'll see.

可能再过一两年，等我同事的研究完成，我们就会知道了。

We'll we'll know maybe in another year or two when my colleague study is is finished.

其实，我们接触到的很多有音乐快感缺失的人，并不觉得这对他们的生活有什么妨碍。

I mean, many of the people we talk to with musical anhedonia don't report it as any kind of hindrance to their lives.

他们说，不，我的生活挺好的。

They say, no, my life is perfectly fine.

我真的不懂音乐，但这并不困扰我。

I really I don't get music, but it doesn't bother me.

所以我觉得我们得尊重人们对这件事的感受。

So I think we just have to be careful about respecting you know, how people feel about it.

这不一定是一种需要治愈的疾病。

It's not it's not a disorder that needs to be cured necessarily.

对。

Right.

对很多人来说，音乐有一种神奇的能力，能唤起回忆。

Well, for a lot of people, music has an amazing ability to bring back memories.

你知道，某首歌可能会把我们带回到第一次听到它的那一刻，或者带回到我们生命中的一个重要事件。

You know, a particular song might transport us back to the moment when we first heard it or to a significant event in our life.

你之前也提到，哪怕只是听到别人吹口哨的一小段旋律，也能唤起一段回忆。

And you were talking earlier about even just hearing a little bit of a snippet of somebody whistling a song could bring back a memory.

为什么音乐对自传体记忆有如此强大的触发作用呢？

Why is music such a powerful cue for autobiographical memory?

这是一个非常受关注的话题，目前有很多高质量的研究正在试图详细回答这个问题，尤其是因为如果我们能弄清楚其中的原因，就可能开发出一些应用，比如针对记忆障碍患者的治疗应用。

This is a topic of great interest, and there's a lot of very good research going on right now attempting to answer that question in in some detail, especially because if we can figure out why it is why it is the case, we might be able to develop certain applications, like therapeutic applications for people with memory disorders.

所以我觉得这确实值得研究。

So that's something that I think is is important to research.

我给出的简短答案要回到奖赏系统，因为我们知道奖赏系统对记忆形成至关重要。

The short answer that I would give goes back to the reward system because we know that the reward system is central to memory formation.

我在最开始提到过，奖赏与强化有关。

I mentioned at the very beginning that reward is related to reinforcement.

强化学习的历史可以追溯到很久以前，在心理学中，对吧，追溯到上世纪中叶。

So reinforcement learning it goes way back, you know, to in psychology, right, to the middle of the previous century.

这个想法是，你会根据行为的回报程度来学习执行某些动作，这意味着你在编码信息时，多巴胺水平越高，编码效果越好；多巴胺水平越低，编码效果就越差。

And the idea is that you learn to perform certain actions based on how rewarding they are, which means that you're you're encoding information and you're encoding that information better when your dopamine levels are higher and less well when your dopamine levels are lower.

从生物学的角度来看，这完全合理。

And this makes perfect sense from a biological perspective.

你想记住那些重要的、突出的、能带来回报的事情，而不是那些琐碎或不重要的事情。

You want to remember the things that are important, the things that are salient, the things that will bring you reward compared to things that are kind of trivial or unimportant.

所以，既然音乐确实能激活奖励系统，那么当你听音乐时，你处于一种信息处理增强的状态，这有助于更好地形成记忆。

So it stands to reason that since music does activate the reward system, when you are listening to that music, you're in a state of heightened, information processing, which leads to better memory formation.

因此，我认为这就是为什么我们有时会有这些相当强烈的自传式记忆效果，因为通常这些事件在情感上也非常突出。

And so that, I think, is is part of the reason why we have these sometimes quite strong autobiographical sorts of, effects because, typically, they're very emotionally salient events as well.

所以，这既是因为音乐引发的情感，也是因为事件本身引发的情感。

So it's it's the emotion generated by the music, but also the emotion generated by the event.

两者结合在一起，就在音乐和事件之间形成了关联，也就是你正在回忆的那个事物。

The two together cause an association to, to be formed between the music and the event, the whatever it is that you're remembering.

我们稍作休息。

We're going to take a short break.

我们回来之后，我会和扎托雷博士聊聊是什么让音乐变得优美，以及有没有哪些音乐作品被普遍认为是优美的。

When we return, I'll talk with doctor Zatorre about what makes music beautiful and whether there are any pieces of music that are considered universally beautiful.

我想聊聊是什么让音乐变得优美。

I want to talk about what makes music beautiful.

如果你在谷歌上搜索“世界上最美的音乐”，对吧，谷歌这个万能的来源，你会得到各种各样的答案。

Now if you Google world's most beautiful music, right, Google the source of everything, You get an amazing range of of answers.

我是说，从我在开头提到的芭芭拉·扎托雷，到诱惑乐队的《我的女孩》，再到《歌剧魅影》的原声带，等等。

I mean, everything from Barbara Zatorre that I mentioned in the intro, to the temptations, my girl, to the soundtrack for, phantom of the opera, for example.

但除了那些有快感缺失症的人的反应之外，有没有哪些音乐作品被普遍认为是优美的呢？

But aside from the reaction of people who have anhedonia, are there any pieces of music that are universally considered beautiful?

我会说，就具体的音乐作品而言，答案是否定的。

I would say that the answer is no with respect to specific pieces of music.

但就不同类型音乐背后的具体原则而言，我会说答案是肯定的。

I would say the answer is yes with respect to specific principles that underlie different types of music.

让我稍微详细解释一下。

So let me unpack that for you a little bit.

所以音乐是非常依赖文化的。

So music is extremely culturally dependent.

对吧？

Right?

所以当有人说他们喜欢披头士，大概这个人是在某个特定时期、某个特定地方、有某种特定文化背景长大的。

So when someone says that they like the Beatles, presumably this is someone who grew up in a certain time period in a certain place with a certain sort of cultural background.

如果你找一个亚马逊雨林里与世隔绝的部落成员，他们的音乐跟我们的不一样，而且很可能不是披头士。

If you take someone who is a member of an isolated tribe in the Amazon Forest, they have the wrong music and it is probably not the Beatles.

如果你给他们放披头士，他们会说，我不知道那是什么，但我更喜欢我的笛子和鼓，那些对我来说有意义。

And and if you play the Beatles for them, they'll go, I don't know what that's about, but I prefer my my flute and my drum, which are meaningful to me.

这确实是事实。

And this is this is true.

对吧？

Right?

音乐在所有文化中都存在，但在表面形式上差异很大，比如使用的乐器和音阶都不同。

Music is present in all cultures, but differs significantly, at least in its superficial expression, in terms of the instruments that are used, in terms of the different scales that are used.

你知道，我们都熟悉西方音阶。

You know, we're all familiar with the Western scale.

人们往往认为那是唯一存在的音阶，但事实绝非如此。

People tend to think that's the only one that exists, but it's absolutely not the case.

如果你听印度古典音乐，他们有拉格，这和西方的音阶很不一样。

If you listen to Indian classical music, they have ragas, which are quite different from the western ones.

如果你去印度尼西亚，他们演奏甘美兰，那种音乐的声音结构完全不同，其他许多文化也是如此。

If you go to Indonesia, they play gamilans, which have a completely different sound structure to them, and so on and so forth for for many different cultures.

节奏也是一样。

The same for rhythms.

在西方音乐中，我们通常使用二拍子或三拍子，但比如非洲的某些文化，他们使用复杂得多的节拍结构，比如七拍或十一拍这种质数节拍，我们听起来觉得奇怪，甚至无法重现，但他们可以。

In Western music, we tend to use, duple or triple meters, but there are certain cultures in Africa, for example, that use far more complex metrical structures, you know, meters of seven or 11 sort of prime number metrical structure, which is sounds weird to us, and we can't even reproduce it, but they can.

那么，是什么让音乐变得优美？

So what makes music beautiful?

我认为，无论文化背景如何，音乐之所以优美，有一个普遍的特征，那就是某个音乐片段的可预测程度。

I think there is a universal feature of what makes music beautiful, irrespective of the culture, and that is the degree to which a particular moment of music is predictable or not.

心理学里有一个基本原理，从十九世纪威廉·冯特那时候就为人所知了，就是说，你需要一定程度的惊喜才能让某件事变得令人愉悦、重要或者突出，但惊喜不能太多，也不能太少。

And there's a fundamental principle in psychology which has been known from the time of Wilhelm Wundt in the nineteenth century, which is that you need you need to have a certain degree of surprise to experience something as as pleasurable or important or salient, but not too much surprise and not too little surprise.

所以这里有一条曲线。

So there's there's a curve.

叫做冯特曲线。

It's called the Wundt curve.

他在1887年发表了这条曲线，从那以后被反复验证了很多次。

He published it in 1887, I and it's been demonstrated many, many times since.

那这意味着什么呢？

So what does it mean?

这意味着大脑一直在试图解读从环境中接收到的信息，并且预测接下来会发生什么。

It means that the brain is constantly trying to interpret what it receives from the environment and trying to anticipate what the next thing will be that's coming.

这又回到了一个非常基本的生存机制。

This again goes back to a very fundamental survival mechanism.

如果你在一个环境里，看到一系列事件，你希望知道接下来会发生什么，这样才能做好准备，采取正确的行动。

If you're in an environment and you see a sequence of events, you want to be able to know what's going to happen next so that you can be prepared to take the right action.

正确的行动可能是扑上去抓住猎物吃掉，或者可能是尽快逃跑，或者也可能是，你知道的，接近同类中的另一个成员，提出一些求偶之类的建议。

The right action might be to pounce and grab the prey and eat it, or the right action might be to run away as fast as you can, or the right action might be, you know, approach another another member of your of your species, you know, with some proposal for for lovemaking or something like that.

对吧？

Right?

这些都是非常不同的行动，但你总是在试图预测接下来会发生什么。

These are all very different actions, but you're always trying to anticipate what's happening.

音乐就是这种机制的一个缩影，因为音乐是由一系列随时间展开的元素组成的，它们遵循某种模式，这取决于你的文化背景。

Now music is kind of a microcosm of that because music consists of a sequence of elements over time that are unfolding over time, and they follow a certain pattern depending on your culture.

可能是某种节奏模式，也可能是某种音阶结构。

It might be a rhythmic pattern of a certain type, might be a scale structure of a certain type.

这些在不同文化中有所不同。

Those differ across cultures.

但在所有文化中，你总是对接下来会发生什么有一定程度的期待。

But across all of them, you always have some degree of expectation about what will happen.

而音乐家对此心知肚明。

And the musician knows this implicitly.

我聊过的每一位音乐家，每当我解释这套理论时，他们都会说，对，当然，我们早就知道了。

Every musician I've ever talked to, whenever I explain this whole theory, they go, well, yeah, of course, we know this.

这就是我们做的事。

This is what we do.

我们会给你一些和你预期不太一样的东西。

We give you something a little different than what you were expecting.

我们不会给你完全一样的东西，因为那太无聊了。

We don't just give you the identical thing because that's boring.

如果我弹个大调音阶，就弹个大调音阶，超级无聊。

If I play something like a major scale, if play major scale, super boring.

没人会听那个。

Like, no one would listen to that.

为什么？

Why?

因为太可预测了。

Because it's too predictable.

你完全知道每一刻会发生什么。

You know exactly what's gonna happen at every moment.

如果我给你弹一堆完全随机的音符，完全混乱，那也特别无聊。

If I play you a bunch of completely random notes, complete chaos, that's also totally boring.

为什么？

Why?

因为那也太不可预测了。

Because it's it's also unpredictable.

没有结构。

There's no structure.

所以你没法预测接下来会发生什么。

So you cannot predict what's gonna happen.

但有一个最佳点，就是可预测性和惊喜之间的平衡。

But there's a sweet spot that identified, which is the balance between predictability and surprise.

所以你需要一些惊喜，但也需要一些可预测性。

So you want some surprise, but you also need some predictability.

实际上，要想感到惊喜，你得先有可预测性。

In fact, in order to get surprised, you need to have predictability.

要想感到惊喜，你得先预期某件事会发生。

In order to be surprised, you have to be expecting that something's going to happen.

如果你完全迷失，不知道发生了什么，你就无法感到惊喜，因为你没有对将要发生的事有任何预期。

If you're completely lost without knowing what's going on, you can't be surprised because you have no expectation about what's going to happen.

所以我认为这就是音乐以及其他艺术形式的关键所在。

So I think this is the key to what makes music and other other art forms as well.

人们已经把这个理论应用到了诗歌，比如，或者幽默上。

People have applied this theory to to poetry, for example, or to humor.

你知道，我们有些像笑点就是意外事件，甚至视觉艺术也是这样。

You know, we have some like the punch line is an unexpected event, even to to visual art.

人们尝试过这个，而且我认为奖励系统，回到那个想法，我们从实验中知道这一点。

People have tried this, And I think that the reward system, coming back to that idea, is we know this from experiments.

我们知道它对获得意外的奖励极其敏感。

We know that it's extremely sensitive to obtaining rewards that are unexpected.

所以我提到过，你知道，那些经典的实验，比如测量老鼠在得到食物时的多巴胺分泌。

So I mentioned, you know, the classical experiments where you're measuring dopamine from, let's say, a rodent as it receives food.

当然，会有反应。

Sure, there's a response.

但更有趣的是，你可以把这个反应和一个无关的刺激联系起来，比如亮一盏灯，表示食物要来了。

But what's even more interesting is that you can condition that response on an unrelated stimulus, let's say a light goes on that signals that food will come.

一旦动物被训练好，奖励系统就会更早地对那个信号做出反应。

And the reward system will, once the animal is trained, will respond to that signal earlier in time.

然后如果它得到的奖励比平时大，多巴胺反应就会有一个巨大的提升。

And then if the reward that it receives is larger than usual, you'll get a huge boost in the dopamine response.

所以这就是奖励系统敏感的地方。

So this is what a reward system is sensitive to.

它敏感的是你相对于之前那些线索、那些预测线索所体验到的奖励。

It's sensitive to the reward you're experiencing in relation to the cues that preceded it, the cues that predicted it.

所以如果你在跟着音乐走，你做了某个预测，然后音乐家弹了一个不同的和弦，转到了另一个调。

So if you're following the music and you make a certain prediction and then the musician plays a different chord that modulates into a different key.

比如，或者有新声音的加入。

Or there's the entrance of a new voice, for instance.

你听到贝斯吉他，然后歌手在某个时刻进来，可能是个稍微出乎意料的时刻。

You're hearing the bass guitar and then the singer comes in at a certain moment, maybe a slightly unexpected moment.

这些正是人们觉得音乐特别愉悦的时刻，这可以追溯到那些非常基本的机制，也就是你感到惊喜的时候。

These are the kinds of moments of music that people find super pleasurable, and it can be related back to these very fundamental mechanisms where you are surprised.

你本来期待某件事，但得到的比期待的还要好。

You were expecting something, but what you got was even better than what you were expecting.

这时候多巴胺就真正起作用了，给你带来愉悦感。

And that's where dopamine really kicks in and and gives you pleasure.

我在想，音乐能力和语言天赋之间有没有联系，因为音乐是一种有效的语言形式。

I'm wondering if there is a connection between musical ability and language aptitude since music is an effective type of language.

它也是一种数学。

It's also a type of mathematics.

我的意思是，没有一些基本的数学直觉，你真的没法演奏音乐。

I mean, you can't really play music without having some fundamental intrinsic understanding of math.

你在神经学上能看到这些联系吗？

Do you see these connections neurologically?

既是也不是。

Yes and no.

我觉得我们确实能看到这些不同功能之间的一些关联，但并不是人们通常想的那种方式。

I think we do see some relationships between these different functions, but not in the way that people usually think about it.

所以，现在有一种流行的说法，有人为了赚钱而推广，就是说，如果你让孩子上音乐课，他们的数学成绩会更好。

So a common idea that's out there that people are promoting because they can make money from it is that, oh, well, if you give your kid music lessons, they'll do better in math class.

我对这个证据并不是很信服。

I'm not terribly convinced by the evidence for that.

而且，如果你的目标是让孩子数学更好，那他们应该上数学课，而不是音乐课。

And besides, if your goal is to make the kid be better at math, they should take math lessons, not music lessons.

我觉得音乐课很棒，是因为音乐本身很棒，而不是因为它对数学有好处。

I think music lessons are fantastic because music is fantastic, not because it's good for math.

所以对我来说，这种说法不太对。

So to me, that's not quite the right thing.

话虽如此，我们确实知道大脑中有某些认知操作，既与音乐创作有关，也与数学这类活动有关。

Having said that, we do know that there are certain cognitive operations in the brain that are relevant for both music making and for something like math.

我举个例子。

And I'll give you an example.

大脑中有一个区域叫顶叶，我们知道它对进行数学家所说的坐标变换很重要。

So there's, a part of the brain, the parietal lobe, which we know is important for taking, for doing sort of what what mathematicians would call coordinate transforms.

这可以简单到像识别一个物体在某个方向，然后你把它旋转到另一个方向，你还能认出它是同一个物体。

So that could be as simple as recognizing an object when it's in one orientation, and then you rotate it to another orientation and you recognize that it's the same object.

所以大脑的顶叶部分负责这类事情，我们做这些事非常自动，甚至习以为常。

So this part of the brain is in the parietal lobe is responsible for things like that that we do very automatically and take for granted.

你可以把它扩展到真正的数学，比如做几何，或者几何定理，或者，我不知道，矩阵代数。

You can extend that to actual math, so doing geometry, for instance, or geometric theorems, or I don't know, matrix algebra.

数学的很多方面都会涉及类似的计算。

There are many aspects of math that would involve similar kinds of computations.

事实证明，音乐中也有类似的计算。

It turns out that there are also musical computations.

这些都是隐性的计算。

These are implicit computations.

对吧？

Right?

就是说，你自己都没意识到。

Like, you're not aware of it.

比如，当你从不同角度认出同一个物体时，你不会在心里想，哦，这里旋转了37.6度，对应着某个变换。

Like, when you when you recognize the object in different orientations, you're not thinking to yourself, oh, there's a rotation of 37.6 degrees, you know, which corresponds to this, you know, transform.

不会的。

No.

你就是直接认出来了。

You just recognize it.

是你的大脑在默默计算。

It's your brain is doing the math.

你对这些操作没有有意识的感知。

You don't have conscious access to those operations.

几年前我开始想，音乐里有没有类似在空间中移动物体的概念？

And some years ago, started thinking, well, what's the musical equivalent of moving an object in space?

然后我们想，那什么是物体呢？

And we thought, oh, what's an object?

比如说，一段旋律。

Well, let's say a melody.

那怎么移动它呢？

How do you move it?

它不在空间里移动，但可以在音高上移动。

Well, it doesn't move in space, but it can move in pitch.

音乐家称之为移调。

And musicians call that transposition.

这是一个很常见的功能，比如同一首曲子用不同的音域唱出来，你也能认出来。

This is a very commonplace function that you can recognize the same tune if it's sung in different registers, for instance.

这不需要任何特殊的音乐训练能力。

That doesn't take any special musical training ability.