沃伦·巴菲特：一生与遗产 1/13/26

最后，我和姐妹们一起演唱了《美丽的美利坚》，这段表演在WOW上播出后，我父亲收到了大量的支持。

And and then at the end my sisters and I sang America the Beautiful and that ran on on w o w and there was just an outpouring for my dad from that.

所以他们可能重播了很多次，我真希望能有一份拷贝。

So they may have run it a bunch more times and I'd give a lot to have a copy of that.

可惜我没有。

Unfortunately, I don't.

我父亲当选后，我做的第一件事就是从国会图书馆借走所有关于赛马赔率的书，因为当时我只知道国会图书馆以收藏一切而闻名。

Well, one of the first things I did when my dad got elected, I said I want to take out every book they have on horse handicapping from the Library of Congress because that's the only thing I knew about Congress was that they had this Library of Congress that was famous for everything.

我父亲说：‘你难道不觉得，一个新当选的国会议员把这作为对国会图书馆的首个请求，有点奇怪吗？’我说：‘爸爸，你两年后还要竞选连任呢。',

And my dad said, don't you think it's a little you might think it's a little peculiar for a freshman congressman to make that his first request at the Library of Congress, and I said, pop, I said, you're gonna be running for election in two years.

我的意思是，如果你是个孩子，我会为你寻找机会。

I mean, I will look for you if you're a kid.

结果我最终借来了数百本关于赛马赔率的书。

So I ended up with hundreds of books on horse handicapping.

你就借了这些？

That's what you took out of that?

嗯，那是第一件事。

Well, that was first.

后来又借了很多关于股票的书，但那时我特别对赛马赔率分析感兴趣。

More books on stocks came later, but I was particularly interested in horse handicapping at that time.

我会把这些书都拿来，要么做速度赔率分析，要么做血统赔率分析。

And what I would do is I I got all these books and I was either a speed handicapper or a class handicapper.

速度赔率分析者关注马匹过去的成绩时间，而血统赔率分析者则关注它们的育种背景。

A speed handicapper looks at the horses times that they've achieved and the class handicapper looks to their breeding.

我在十一二岁的时候，就要做出重大决定：到底是当血统赔率分析者还是速度赔率分析者。

And I was making a major decision at age 11 or 12 to be either a class handicapper or speed handicapper.

什么？

What

速度？

speed?

你选了速度赔率分析者？

You chose speed handicapper?

我是个速度评马师，没错。

I was a speed handicapper, yeah.

然后在芝加哥北克拉克街上有个地方，会卖你上个月的旧赛马表，每天都有，覆盖了所有主要赛马场。

And then there was a place on North Clark Street in Chicago that would sell you a month of old bracing forms, were daily, and they had every they covered all the major tracks.

所以我几乎不花什么钱就买下这些上个月的资料，然后每天用它们测试我的评马能力，进行40场比赛——可能是在五个赛马场各选八场，看看我的知识是否足够优越，能赢过那些高额抽成，比如大约18%左右。

And so I would I would buy these month old things for practically nothing, and then I would test my handicapping each day doing 40 races, maybe eight races at five tracks, and test out whether I could, my knowledge was superior enough to beat unfortunately which were very large expenses, like maybe 18% or something of the sort.

要赢下这么大的投注额非常困难，当然，在股票市场里，你有正向收益。

And that's a big, big handle to beat and, and of course in stocks you've got a positive something.

它们在赚钱。

They're earning money.

但在赛马场上，你只是在试图击败其他所有对哪匹马会赢做出判断的人。

But, but all you're doing at racetrack is trying to beat everybody else that's making judgments about what horse is gonna finish first.

所以没有任何新东西被创造出来。

And so there is nothing being created.

只是抽成而已。

There's just a take.

于是我从那个有18%抽成的投注模式，转向了股票市场，那里有着非常显著的正期望收益。

So I went from the, I graduated finally from the operation that had an 18% tad handle against it to something that's had a very dramatic positive expectancy in stocks.

当时道琼斯平均指数是100点。

And what The Dow Jones average was 100.

我买第一只股票的那天，它刚突破100点，如今它已经涨到42000点左右，而且一直都在派发股息。

It crossed 100 on the day I bought my first stock, and now it's at 42,000 or whatever, and it's paid dividends the whole time.

你找不到一匹马能做到这一点。

You can't find a horse that does that.

但是什么让你从赛马转向了股票？

But what pushed you out of horses into stocks?

有没有某个时刻让你转变了想法，对你产生了负面影响？

Was there a moment that turned you, soured you a

我曾经一段时间喜欢两者，但有一次我去西弗吉尼亚州的查尔斯顿，本来有几匹马想下注，却在第一场比赛输了一些钱。

I I liked both of them for a while but there was one time when I went to Charleston, West Virginia and I had a couple of horses in mind but I lost some money on the first race.

然后我做了最愚蠢的事——我继续赌每一场比赛。

And then I did the dumbest thing you can imagine, which I just kept betting every race.

我回家时，身上少了50美元，这正是我带的所有钱，相当于送了5000份报纸。

And when I went home I was $50 poorer, which was all I'd taken with me, and that was equivalent to delivering 5,000 papers.

我当时在送报纸赚钱。

I was delivering papers during money.

每份报纸赚大约一分钱，所以我为了做一件非常愚蠢的事，不得不送5000份报纸。

I made about a penny each, and so I had to deliver 5,000 papers for doing something very stupid.

我去了一家霍华德·约翰逊餐厅，身上还剩几美元。

And I went to the Howard Johnson's and I had a couple of dollars left.

我给自己买了一顿精致的饭菜，坐在那里反复思考，思考这笔交易。

I bought I bought myself a fancy meal and just sat there and thought about it and thought about it and the trade.

那之后，我就彻底告别了赛马。

And that was the end of war's racing.

接下来。

Up next.

在那之前，你经常对人说‘去你的’吗？

Did you used to tell people to go to hell a lot before that?

嗯，我确实以前做得更多。

Well, I certainly did it more before.

我后来听到的建议更多。

I heard that advice than afterwards.

这不是你能立刻就改变的事情，但是。

It's not something you would shake immediately, but.

我想在一开始，你可能更迫切地想要争取最好的交易。

I would say in the beginning you probably were a little more hard pressed to drive for the best deal possible

因为我的行为和生意随着时间发生了变化。

since My behavior on and business has changed over time.

没那么回事。

Not so.

这很大程度上是因为吸引了正确的人。

That is a product enormously of bringing around the right kind of people.

我的意思是，当你遇到像托马斯·墨菲那样的学生或合作伙伴时，如果你从他身上学不到东西，那你就根本不想成为伯尼·麦道夫那样的合作伙伴，你知道的。

I mean when you get to be, and I would pick out number one, a student in effect, or a partner of Thomas Murphy, if you don't learn something from that, you don't, you don't want to learn anything by being a partner of Bernie Madoff's, you know.

我真的很幸运，从为我父亲工作开始，接着为格雷厄姆和所有这些人工作。

And and I've been so so lucky, starting with working for, well working for my dad, but working for Graham and all all these people.

我从未遇到过一个糟糕的老板。

I've I've never had a bad boss.

当你94岁的时候，这可是相当幸运的，我遇见过最棒的那些人。

And that's pretty lucky when you're 94, I mean, I've had the best of them.

我只是希望早点遇到他们，但无论如何。

I just wish I'd met some of them a lot earlier, you know, but one way or another.

幸运的是，他们中的大多数都长寿，所以即使我是在40岁左右才认识他们，我仍然与像查理·芒格这样的人有着长久的交往，当然还有汤姆·墨菲，虽然方式不同，但相似。

Fortunately, most of them lived a long time, so even though I met them at age 40 or something, I still had long experiences with, you know, people like Charlie Munger, number one, but Tom Murphy in a different way, but similar ways.

你从汤姆·墨菲身上学到了什么？

What did you learn from Tom Murphy?

我学会了如何为人处世。

Oh, I learned how to behave.

他可能是我遇到过的最出色的商业管理者，但他并不是通过鞭策员工工作八小时，或逼他们干十二小时，来达到这个效果的；他只是激发了每个人最好的一面。

And he was probably the best business manager I've ever run into, but he didn't do it by, you know, whipping people to death for eight hours or turning it into twelve hour days or, you know, it it it he he he brought out the best in everybody.

但他并不是一个盲目乐观的人，如果你只研究他，就根本不需要再研究其他人了。

But he wasn't a Pollyanna, and, if you'd done nothing but study him, you wouldn't have had to study anybody else.

你从第一次和他共进午餐时学到了什么？当时的情况是怎样的？

What's, what's just a lesson you took away, maybe the first time you sat down and had lunch with him or something, what, how did things go?

嗯。

Yeah.

你是什么时候意识到他是个特别的人的？

When did you realize that he was somebody special?

我第一次和他共进午餐时大约四十岁，我记得当时有几件事，但那只是源源不断的一系列经历。

The first time I'd write, I did have lunch with him when I was about 40, and I remember a couple of things from that, but it was just a stream.

我也在观察他。

It was watching him too.

我的意思是，他的行为和他说的话是一致的。

I mean he wasn't behaving inconsistently with what he said.

但他告诉我，你总可以对别人说：明天再滚蛋。

But he, you know, he told me, he says, you can always tell somebody to go to hell tomorrow.

你知道，我的意思是，想想看，一直大喊大叫会带来多少麻烦。

You know, I mean, mean just think of how much trouble that keeps shouting.

因为你并没有失去这个选择的机会。

Because you haven't lost the option.

所以别觉得你只有十五秒或三十秒的时间来说这句话。

So don't feel that you've only got fifteen seconds to say it, or thirty seconds.

在那之前，你经常让人滚蛋吗？

Did you used to tell people to go to hell a lot before that?

嗯，我确实以前做得更多。

Well, I certainly did it more before.

我是在那之后才听到这个建议的。

I heard that advice than afterwards.

这不是你能立刻改变的事情，但我亲眼看到它在汤姆·墨菲身上奏效了。

It's not something you would shake immediately but I watched it work with Tom Murphy.

我不认识谁比他拥有更多良好的互动，无论是收购企业、运营企业，还是处理找上门来的各种人的难题。

I don't know anybody that had more good interactions whether it was with, you know, buying businesses, whether it was operating businesses, whether it was dealing with any person's problems that came to him.

我的意思是，这已经深深融入了他的行为方式中，方方面面都是如此。有一些信件或事情我没写，因为我记不清那些建议了，而你知道，人总是想对别人说‘去死吧’。

I mean it just, it was just built into his behavior in, in every way, and, and there's a few letters or things I haven't written because I don't remember that advice, and I, you know, it's very human to want to tell somebody to go to hell.

每个人都会。

Well everybody.

我的意思是，你什么时候真正从中获益了呢？唯一可能的是，你当时可能感觉好了一点点。

I mean, and when have you ever gained, I mean, the only thing is you may have felt a little bit better for

这确实能让人感到非常满足。

It can be really satisfying.

是的。

Yeah.

很让人满足。

Is satisfying.

但如果你真想这么做，就对着镜子去做吧，或者找点别的办法。

But do it, go, go into it, do it with a mirror or something.

但如果你只是不断告诉自己，你并没有放弃，第二天你依然会感到很大的满足。

But you can have a lot of satisfaction the next day if you just keep saying to yourself, you know, you haven't given up.

只是看着他，他就教会了我更多关于人类行为的知识，虽然很大程度上是商业导向的，但又不止于此。

And just watching him, he taught me more about human behavior but it was business oriented to a great degree, but it was beyond that.

远远不止于此。

It was way beyond that.

你去找任何与他打过交道、为他工作过的人，你知道的，哪怕是六十年前或七十年前和他分手的女友。

And you find me anybody that dealt with him, worked for him, you know, girlfriends he broke up with, you know, sixty years ago or seventy years ago.

我的意思是，找任何对他有负面评价的人，但他也不是个天真乐观的人。

I mean anybody that has a bad word to say about him but it was, he wasn't a Pollyanna.

是的。

Yeah.

他做出了各种重大的决定。

He made all kinds of big decisions.

我从他身上学到的每一课都是宝贵的。

Every lesson I learned from him was a good lesson.

这并不意味着我都应用了这些教训，你知道的，一生中能遇到这样的人，你真的很幸运。

Doesn't mean I apply them all, you know, and you're just lucky when you meet somebody like that in life.

然后就是我九岁时认识的查理。

And then it's like Charlie whom I met when I was nine.

查理和我从失败中获得的乐趣，比从成功中还多。

Charlie and I had more fun on things that failed than succeeded.

我的意思是，我们只是在挣扎。

I mean we just we just struggle.

她觉得，像我们这样的两个家伙犯下大错，真是幽默。

She was humorous that a couple of guys like ourselves should make a big mistake.

就是有一种默契，我的朋友们都很聪明，但他们智商都高达180甚至200，有时候曲线反而会往另一个方向弯曲。

It there's just a connection, and my friends have all been quite intelligent, but they've they've they've they've they've they've they've up to a 180 or 200 IQ so the curve starts bending the other way sometimes.

但他们确实都很聪明。

But but but they were all intelligent.

但他们也不是都觉得必须压倒对方。

But they also didn't all think they had to outsmart the other person.

默夫从不做那种非要榨干对方最后一分钱的交易。

Murph never made a deal where he tried to extract the last penny.

他总是做成好交易，虽然也有一些他没做成、却希望做成功的交易，你知道的，但他为别人做了很多事，尤其是我。

He always made good deals and he and there's number that he didn't make that he wished he'd make, you know, and but he did all kinds of things for other people, especially me.

你说你和查理从那些可能犯错的事情中学到了更多，或者从中获得了更多乐趣。

You said that you and Charlie learned more from, or had more fun from the things that maybe you made mistakes on.

你们俩一起做过什么项目？有没有哪笔交易你们搞砸了，但反而在想办法脱身或补偿别人的时候玩得很开心？

What's a project the two of you did together, a deal the two of you did together where things went wrong and then you had a good time as you were trying to figure out how to extract yourselves from it or pay back the people?

各种各样的事情。

All kinds of things.

嗯，我们在1965年或1966年买了巴尔的摩的一家百货公司。

Well, we bought a department store in 1965 or 06/1966 in Baltimore.

而且

And

和桑迪·戈特曼一起？

With Sandy Gottesman?

是的。

Yeah.

和桑迪·戈特曼一起，他是他妻子的叔叔，拥有这家生意，我是说，在巴尔的摩。

With Sandy Gottesman and was his his wife's uncle that owned the business, I mean, in Baltimore.

然后桑迪也加入了。

And and Sandy went in it.

他的公司占10%，查理的公司占10%，而我的公司占80%，因为那时候我们的规模比他们大，尽管其实也不算大。

And his firm took 10%, Charlie's firm 10 took 10%, and my firm took 80% because we were larger in those days than those guys, although we weren't very large.

桑迪和查理之前并不认识。

And Sandy and Charlie did not know each other ahead of time.

但他们俩都认识我，总之，买下之后我们就知道犯了个大错。

And, but they both knew me and anyway, after we bought it we knew we'd made a terrible mistake.

这简直再蠢不过了。

It was just, couldn't have been more dumb.

没有什么比拥有一个东西更能让你开始发现问题了。

There's nothing like owning something to start.

你花了钱，然后才能看清它哪里出了问题，你知道的。

You spent your money then to see what's wrong with it, know.

这就像是买了一栋房子，结果发现里面有很多你不满意的地方。

It's like buying a house and finding out that there's a whole bunch of things you don't like about it.

但这件事没那么容易。

And except it's not so easy.

于是我们三人拥有了霍丘尔公司，去了巴尔的摩，我们都承认犯了错误。

And and there we were owning Hochul going to Baltimore and we made a mistake and, and we all three agreed on that.

而且从来没有人责怪过其他人。

And nobody blamed the other one ever, ever.

实际上，我们在一起讨论这些错误时还挺开心的。

And, and actually we had a lot of fun discussing our mistakes.

我的意思不是说我们围坐在一起笑这件事，但仅仅是这种行为本身。

I mean, I don't mean that we sat around laughing about it or anything but but just just the very action.

这就像是身处战争中一样，我是说，或者类似的情况。

It was like, it's like being in a war, I mean, or something.

当你面临共同的问题，身边又有优秀的伙伴并肩作战时，这种经历会把你们紧紧联系在一起。

It just pulls you together when you've got a common problem and and you've got wonderful people in a foxhole with you.

这让人与人之间更亲近。

And that brings people closer together.

你拥有如此多非凡而出色的朋友。

You have had an extraordinary number of just spectacular friends.

这不可能是巧合。

That can't be coincidence.

不，你应该对朋友有所选择，并希望他们对朋友的选择也不要太挑剔。

No, you should be selective about your friends And hope they aren't too selective about theirs.

你应该不断升级自己的朋友圈，但不应该以欺骗的方式进行。

Now you should be trading up all the time but you shouldn't be doing it in a deceptive manner.

你是有意识地这样做吗？

How, I mean do you do that consciously or?

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

我觉得你只是被那些和你有相似兴趣的人吸引，某种程度上，我就是被这样的人吸引的。

I think you're just attracted to people that, I was attracted to people who were interested in the same thing I was to an extent.

也许没有我以前对某些事情那么强烈，或者你知道，他们有不同的背景和各种各样的情况。

Maybe not as intense as I was about some things or, you know, they had different backgrounds and all kinds of things.

但你知道，我不会用任何人来交换我的任何一位朋友。

But you know, I wouldn't have traded any of my friends for anybody else.

我的意思是，你知道，我们最后都喜欢一起做事情。

I mean, you know, and we ended up liking to do things together.

我组成了所谓的格雷厄姆团体。

I formed that so called Graham group.

是的，格雷厄姆团体是

Yeah, and the Graham group was

是的，它后来变成了许多不同的人。

Yeah, that became a whole bunch of different people.

它并不是以凯·格雷厄姆命名的，而是以本·格雷厄姆命名的。

From Kay Graham, who it wasn't named after, it was named after Ben Graham.

我们差不多每一年半就聚一次，持续了将近五十年。

And we met for close to fifty years, about every year and a half or so on average.

这些人都彼此欣赏，而且在各自的行业中被视为高不可攀。

All of these people liked each other and they were regarded in their own industry as, you know, unapproachable.

但他们却融合得如此默契。

And they just they just melded together so well.

我们一开始以为这只是一次性的活动。

We started out well we only thought it was going be held once.

本·格雷厄姆回到了国内，我打电话给11个人，问他们是否想去圣地亚哥。

Ben Graham was back in the country and I called 11 people and said, do you want to go to San Diego?

那时候去圣地亚哥不像现在这么方便，而且我们都没多少钱，尽管比起刚起步时，我们都已经富裕多了。

And it wasn't as easy to get to San Diego quite as is now and and and none of us had that much money, although we all had more money than we started with.

但我还是打电话给他们，说本·格雷厄姆在城里，他可能不会再回到这个半球了，这是一次难得的机会能见到他。

But I called I called them and said Ben Graham's in town and he probably won't be in this, in this hemisphere, know, in our future and it's a rare opportunity to see him.

他同意，如果我们过去，他会和我们待上几天。

He agreed that if we come out he'll spend a few days with us.

查理在那里，而我当时还不认识汤姆·墨菲。

Charlie was there and I didn't know Tom Murphy then.

但介绍我认识汤姆·墨菲的人也在场，还有许多同学，各种各样的人。

But the person that introduced me to Tom Murphy was there, and then a bunch of classmates, all kinds of things.

我们玩得非常开心，于是决定再办一次。

And we had such a good time that we decided to do it again.

本不再打算留在国内了。

Well Ben wasn't going to stay in the country anymore.

他要回法国了。

Was going back to France.

但下一次我们去了佛罗里达，再次玩得非常开心，于是这成了一个传统。后来我会安排不同的主题，最初更偏向财务方向，但随着这些年我不断加入新成员，你可以看到这个团体逐渐发展出新的活动。

But but the next time we did Florida and we, and again we just had a lot of fun and so it became something and then I would assign different topics, you know, that initially they'd be more financially oriented than they were as you could actually watch the sort of development of the, the group into new activities as I added people over the years.

他们都知道我，但大多数人之前彼此也多少认识一些。

And they all knew me, but most of them knew each other to some degree beforehand.

我们就这样开心地持续了五十年。

And we just had a good time for fifty years.

大家参与时都带着一种非常特别的精神——毫无虚伪，我的意思是，团体里没有人比别人更重要，而且

And people entered into it in a really unusual spirit of no baloney, you know, I mean there was nobody that was more important than somebody else in the group or, and

但就学习而言，某种程度上，通过讲座来学习这些内容

But with the point of learning, lectures to a certain extent, learning that on things

是的，学习总是很有趣。

that Yeah, learning is always interesting.

我的意思是，没有什么比学习更有趣了，当然可能还有几件事我不会深入谈，那是长期的事。

I mean there's nothing more interesting than, well there's probably a few things I probably won't get into, it's long term.

学习，学习更有趣。

Learning is, learning's more interesting.

你知道吗，想想几百年前，图书馆的概念。

You know what, I mean the idea of a library, just think of Just a few 100 years ago.

我的意思是，那时候晚上连一本书都读不了。

I mean, you know, there wouldn't even read one by at night.

我。

I.

当你想到。

When you think of.

当时的生活与现在相比是什么样子。

What life was like compared to what it is now.

这仅仅是。

It's just.

现在的生活真是太好了。

It's wonderful now for.

但仍然只限于少数人。

It's still for a limited number of people.

有各种各样的人，尤其是在美国以外的地方。

There's all kinds of people, particularly outside The United States.

但如果可以的话，我宁愿出生在几乎最贫穷的家庭。

But I'd rather be born in almost the poorest family if I could.

出生在今天的美国，也胜过出生在世界其他任何地方。

Were to be born today in The United States than to be born anyplace else.

所以你认为美国梦依然生机勃勃吗？

So you think the American dream is alive and well?

我爱它。

I love it.

如果，是的，如果没有毁灭地球的能力，我会说，今天出生在美国是前所未有的有趣之事。

If, yeah, if didn't come with the power to destroy the planet, I would, I would say that there'd never been anything remotely as interesting as being born in The United States today.

你担心人工智能吗？

Do you worry about artificial intelligence?

是的。

Yeah.

在一些人冒充我出去骗人几次之后，我们只是想到了其中一个。

After a few times when people pretending to be me of going out and scamming people, we just thought out about one of them.

即使是最懂这方面的人也说，他们不知道它会走向何方。

Even the people that are smartest about it said they don't know where it's going.

如果你是哥伦布或麦哲伦，说不知道要去哪里或许还说得通，但你总能掉头回去。

And it's one thing to, I guess, say you don't know where you're going if you're if you're Columbus, maybe Fortin, but you can always turn around go back.

但 genie 已经出了瓶子。

But they're the genie's out of the bottle.

我的意思是，如果有人想冒充我来骗人，无论他们相隔一万里还是在奥马哈，他们都能做到。

I mean that if someone wants to impersonate me in a way to scam people 10,000 miles away or in Omaha they can they can do it.

他们可以模仿我的声音，模仿我的外貌，说话骗过我的孩子们。

And they can imitate my voice and they can imitate my appearance and they can talk, can fool they can fool by my kids.

你怎么做才能阻止这种情况？

What do you do to stop that?

你该如何应对这个问题？

What do you, how do you combat it?

你如何把精灵重新塞回瓶子里？

How do you put the genie back in the bottle?

这和我们面对核武器的问题是一样的。

That's the same problem we have with the nuclear weapons.

我们知道如何制造它们，也知道如何不断制造出更大的核武器。

We know how to build them and we know how to build bigger ones all the time.

问题是，其他人也知道，而且他们拥有的唯一用途就是杀人。

The problem is so do other people and, and they've got no use except to kill people.

或者威慑对方不要使用他的武器。

Or deter the other guy from using his.

意思是，虽然这是世界上创造出来的东西，但在二战期间这么做是绝对必要的，因为当时根本不用怀疑德国人正在研发它。

Mean that is something to have created in the world but it was absolutely necessary to do it in World War II when, I mean, there wasn't any doubt the Germans were working on it.

你可以去搜索并阅读那封在德国入侵波兰前一个月寄给罗斯福总统的信。

You can go to to search and read the letter that was sent to President Roosevelt just a month before the Germans invaded Poland.

意思是，我并不了解这方面的任何事情。

Mean, doesn't mean I know anything about it.

我对铀或二月的事情一无所知。

I don't about uranium from February or anything.

我不懂，但我确实理解人类的行为。

I don't but I do understand human behavior.

意思是，这根本不算复杂。

Mean, it's hardly complicated.

我想，当你思考你的成长与思想演变时，我们还是回到这个话题上，谈谈你在商业上的观点是如何变化的。

I guess when you think about your evolution and thought, we'll go back to this thread of how your views in business have changed.

你提到过一些关于你对人的判断，以及从汤姆·墨菲那里学到的东西，但就你在商业上的思维演变而言，你会如何总结？

You've talked a little bit about how your assessment of people, what you learned from Tom Murphy along the way, but just your evolution of thought in business, how would you sum that up?

你会说你如今是

How would you say you're

其实有很多我以为自己在学习的商业知识，其实并不正确。

Well there's different a lot of that I thought I was learning about business that weren't true.

比如哪些？

Like what?

如果你谈论美国公司的董事会，那非常重要。

If you talk about boards of American companies that's pretty important.

你谈的是几乎整个国家的上市公司。

You're talking about the whole land, country almost with public companies.

而那些独立董事，通常并不独立。

And the people, independent directors are the, are not independent usually.

他们，他们，金钱对他们来说很有用，而且

They, they, the money is useful to them and

他们担任董事所获得的报酬是

The money they get for being on the board Being

董事。

a director.

我的意思是，这简直是世界上最好的工作，每年只需做些相当愉快的事情，就能拿到25万、30万，甚至高达50万美元的报酬。

I mean it's the best job in the world to get $2.50, 300, maybe 5, even up to $500,000 a year for doing something that's quite pleasant.

通常他们还会提供交通，安排专车接送你，一切都安排得妥妥当当，人人都对你彬彬有礼，谁不想要这份工作呢？

Usually they give you the transportation and they have cars waiting to take you around everything and, and everybody's polite and everybody'd love that job.

我的意思是，谁会不愿意呢？

I mean, who wouldn't?

假设我一无所有，有人对我说：沃伦，你想不想当XYZ公司的董事？每年给你30万美元，你只需要露个面，见见其他一些不错的人，而且别打嗝就行。

I mean if I didn't have any money and somebody said, Warren, how would you like to be a director of the XYZ company and you'll make $300,000 a year And all you have to do is show up and meet some other nice people and just don't, don't burp.

别说话。

Don't say anything.

别搞砸了。

Don't, don't screw it up.

而且，如果我去参加那个会议，发现别人持有公司10%的股票之类的，但他们并不独立，理论上是这样。

And I mean, if I go to that meeting and somebody else, you know, has had 10% of the stock of the company and everything else, but they're not independent, you know, in theory.

那我脑子里会想些什么呢？

And what's going to be in the back of my mind?

我知道怎么把年薪从30万涨到60万美元。

I know how to get a raise from 300 to $600,000 a year.

我只需要在有人被要求推荐一位‘真正优秀’的董事时，说：‘我知道奥马哈有个人，他当董事挺合适的。’

And all I've got to do is when some, some, somebody's called to come up with a quote good, end quote, director that they say, well I know this guy in Omaha, he'd be a good director.

现在你就有了两个人会推荐你给其他人，因为你没给他们惹什么麻烦。

And now you've got two people that are out there that'll recommend you to somebody else because you didn't really cause them any troubles.

如果你是CEO，想赚更多钱，等等。

And if you're the CEO and you wanted to get paid more money and, and so on.

你是说把他们放进你的薪酬委员会？

You mean put them on your compensation committee

哦，当然了。

Oh as absolutely.

独立董事的意思是，他们真的独立，没有利益关联。而你不可能比这更明显的利益冲突了——如果你本来没多少钱，比如你是个学校的校长之类的，但他们给你的报酬很少，一切就是这样。

An independent I mean, and the whole idea of getting independent directors is that they are independent, that they don't have an interest And you couldn't have a more obvious interest than doubling your, you know, if you aren't making any money, you know, you're head of a school someplace or something but they they don't pay you very much and everything.

你一年赚30万美元，就可以辞掉那个该死的学校工作了，那地方真是烦人。

You make $300,000 a year and you can quit that damn school, it's a pain in the neck.

他们可能会继续留着你，即使你75岁了，如果你是财务主管，甚至可能干到90岁还在董事会，但我们给的报酬并不高。

And, and they'll keep you around probably so you're 75 and if you're a bursary you might get to be 90 and be on the board but we don't pay that well.

这激励了什么。

What it incentivizes.

你知道，查理一直大力强调激励机制，而这个机制到底在激励你什么？

You know, Charlie was always a huge preacher on incentive, incentives and what are you incentivized by this?

嗯，我就说这个话题。

Well, I'm on the subject.

我是说，我正在看我们的委托书，那份文件有20页长，我们前几天刚弄出来。我刚入行的时候，确实会收到年度会议的通知。

I mean, I'm looking at our proxy statement which is 20 pages long which we set out the other day and when I started in the business, you know, I actually got notice of annual meetings.

有时候那通知只有两页或三页长。

Sometimes it was two pages long or three pages.

现在几乎每个人都有一百页甚至更多的文件，法院或监管机构合理地认为，股东有权知道首席执行官的薪酬是多少，并且应该有相应的解释。

Now almost everybody has a 100 pages or more and quite properly courts or ruling bodies or whatever thought, you know, the shareholders are entitled to know how much the CEO earns and there ought to be an explanation.

于是他们在文件中加入了一项内容：你的薪资与普通人的薪资相比如何？

So they stick in there one item that is how does your salary compare to the average person's salary?

比例大约是200比1。

It's like 200 to 1.

他们以为这样会让首席执行官感到尴尬。

And they think that's going to embarrass CEOs.

当然，实际情况是，除了伯克希尔之外，我曾担任过20家公司的董事会成员，ABC公司的首席执行官看到这份文件后，会拿它和XYZ公司比较，心想：我比这些人聪明，也更努力工作。

And of course, what it does is if, and I've been on 20 corporate boards aside from Berkshire's, CEO of ABC looks at this thing and he looks at the XYZ company and he thinks, I'm smarter than these guys and I'm working harder.

他们拿多少，我就应该拿得更多。

Whatever they get I ought to get that plus some more.

于是就产生了这种逐级攀升的效应，薪酬委员会则会聘请一位由公司秘书挑选的专家，而这位专家的利益与公司一致，你几乎想不出比让首席执行官去阅读隔壁公司薪酬水平更能激励他们提高自己薪资的方式了。

And then you get this ratcheting effect and the compensation committee, you know, is, gets some expert that, that the corporate secretary picked out who's got the same interests and, and you couldn't, you couldn't think of a way to incentivize people more to kick up their own salaries than have them read what somebody next door is making.

这完全背离了原本的意图。

It, it's just exactly the opposite of what what's intended.

独立董事最不想做的事就是被踢出董事会。

And the independent directors are the last thing in the world they want to do is get kicked off a board.

他们再也不会得到其他任命了。

They'll never get another assignment again.

他们旨在取悦他人。

And they aim to please.

你不该期待别的，你知道的。

And you shouldn't expect anything else, you know.

伯克希尔的做法与其他公司非常不同。

So Berkshire does things very differently than other companies.

我们之所以这样做，是因为我们真正思考过我们的所有政策。

We do it differently because we actually thought through what we've thought through all our policies.

这并不意味着我们找到了正确的答案，但至少我们思考过这些问题。

That doesn't mean we've come with the right answer but at least we've thought about them.

我们问自己：这会激励什么？

And we say what does it incentivize?

那么在伯克希尔，激励是什么？

And what is an incentive at Berkshire?

激励显然是要有一群人，他们时刻为其他股东着想，而自己并没有什么个人利益可图。

Incentive is obviously is to have a bunch of people who are thinking about all the other shareholders and who do not really have anything to gain.

所以你不希望伯克希尔去迎合其他公司的做法。

So you don't want Berkshire to conform to what everybody else

伯克希尔希望吸引那些精通商业的人。

is I Berkshire to attract people that are smart about business.

你希望他们最好能持有对自己而言意义重大的投资，并且是以与其他股东相同的方式购入的。

You want them preferably with an investment that's significant to them which they bought on the same basis as the other shareholders.

你希望让这份工作有趣，但不要过于丰厚的报酬。

And you want to make the job interesting but not remunerative.

你觉得如今商业中还有哪些愚蠢的做法？

What else do you think is stupid in business these days?

太多了。

A lot.

好吧，我来给你举一个例子。

Well I would say, I'll, I'll, I'll give you one example.

这不算最新情况，但我认为，CEO或代表CEO的人每隔几个月就去做投资者关系，是非常愚蠢的。

It's not quite current but, but I think it's very stupid for the CEOs or somebody who represents the CEO, every couple of months to do the investor relations.

如果他们以某种方式开展这些电话会议的话。

Calls they do if, if they conduct them in a certain way.

我的意思不是说所有这样的会议都这样，但太多人强调‘我们接下来要做什么’。

I mean I'm not saying that all of them, but so many emphasize here's what we're going to do.

我举一个我熟悉的例子，我甚至不知道是谁最先开始的。

I'll give you an example I'm familiar with and, and, and I don't even know who started it.

但很多年前，富国银行有人认为，强调客户在公司办理了多少种不同服务非常重要。

But at Wells Fargo many years ago, somebody thought it was important to emphasize how many different services people signed up for at the company.

一旦一位CEO连续几个月都这样做，他们就很难再回头说：这其实并不重要，或者我们发现这适得其反——在这个世界里，这种事情根本不会发生。

Once a CEO has done that for many months, a, they really can't reverse themselves and say, this really wasn't important or we find out that it backfired or that just doesn't happen in this world.

然后他们把公司交给了下一位CEO，如果这位新CEO在第一次电话会议上说：‘唉，约翰·史密斯以前管理这家公司时全搞错了。’

And then they hand the company off to and the next CEO, if they get on the first call and they say, well gee, John Smith that ran this place was doing it all wrong.

你不会这么说的。

You don't say that.

于是你继续这种做法，不断强调，却没人注意到这正在扭曲全球数百万人、下面数十万员工的行为。

And so you continue the process and you keep emphasizing and nobody's looking at the fact that that's perverting the behavior of millions of people down the world, hundreds of thousands that work down below.

当你在那些每次都会被媒体报道的电话会议中这样做时，你不应该引导人们走向错误的行为。

And when you do it on, you know, on calls that go out to people that write stories about your, about your call every time that takes place, you don't want to steer people down the wrong behavior.

我的意思是，这就像对待你的孩子一样。

I mean it's, it's like with your kids.

我的意思是，他们会观察你的行为，而不是你说了什么。

I mean, they're gonna watch how you behave, not how, what you, what you say.

起初他们可能会给你一些宽容，等他们还在摸索的时候，但过一段时间后，他们就清楚你到底在做什么了。

At first they may give you a little leeway at first while they're rooting the ropes, but after a while they, they know, they know what you're doing.

想想这一点吧。

And just think of that.

如果他们能在上个季度多做一些业务，或者攒一点小金库，他们就会去这么做。

If they can put some more business in the last quarter or store up a little piggy bank to, they're going to do it.

我的意思是，他们是在为自己的主人效力，你知道的，这种效应。

I mean it's, and they're serving their master, you know, effect.

你根本不需要对此下达任何指令。

And you don't have to issue any instructions to that.

相信我，我曾在20家公司工作过，见过太多这样的人了。

And believe me, having been at 20 companies I've seen a lot of that by people.

他们不会想到偷你门上的报纸或电话，但他们没意识到自己玩弄数字所带来的影响。

They wouldn't think of stealing your newspaper phone on your on your door but they they don't realize the impact of they like to play with numbers.

一旦你开始玩弄数字，就再也停不下来了。

And once you start playing with numbers, you don't quit.

一旦你把公司交到某人手里，而他一直在玩弄数字，然后你说：我们不再玩弄数字了。

And once you have somebody that handed you the reins to a company and they've been playing with the numbers and you say, we're going to give up playing with the numbers.

我的意思是，你不可能在全球范围内就这么简单地做到。

I mean, you just don't do this that worldwide.

除了科技七巨头之外，伯克希尔·哈撒韦现在已成为最有价值的公司

Outside of the Mag seven, Berkshire Hathaway is now the most valuable company

花了很长时间。

Took a long time.

在S

In the S

和P 500中。

and P 500.

但这是你建立起来的。

But it's something you built.

随着你变得越来越大，事情是如何变化的？

How, how did things change along the way as you got bigger and bigger?

变得越来越困难。

It got more difficult.

而且，而且，我的意思是，因为做起来更难了，将非常大的数字复利增长比小数字更难。

And, and, and I mean because it's harder to do, it's harder to compound extremely large numbers than small numbers.

我一直都知道这一点。

And I've always known that.

我的意思是，当我只有112美元买三股城市服务优先股时，让我的净资产翻倍并不是遥不可及的事。

I mean when I had a $112 to buy three shares of City Service preferred, doubling my net worth was not a remote possibility.

我只是得出去卖更多的可口可乐瓶子，或者挨家挨户做点别的事情。

Mean I just had to go out and you know sell more bottles of Coca Cola or do something door to door.

所以毫无疑问，我们再也无法像以前那样做了。

So there's just no question that we can't, we can't do what we did before.

这并不意味着我们什么也做不了，但我们就是做不到以前那样了。

That doesn't mean we can't do anything but we can't, we just can't do it.

随着时间推移，你可能变得更加保守了。

You you've gotten perhaps more conservative with time.

我的意思是，你一直希望保留一笔现金缓冲，而这个数额随着时间推移增加了。

I mean, you've always wanted a a buffer of cash around, and that that number's gone up over time.

我记得当时是200亿美元，是的。

I I remember when it was 20,000,000,000 Yeah.

也许是500亿美元。

Maybe 50,000,000,000

嗯，这是外部环境的变化。

Well, that's external circumstances.

我的意思是，等我们说完之后，如果你说，我非常认同你的想法，愿意投入一百亿美元，那我们就谈谈。

I mean, we believe me, it's it's after we get finished talking, you say, I've got a great $100,000,000,000 in your idea, I would say let's talk.

我不这么认为。

I don't.

但无论如何，总有可能明天有人会对我这么说，或者我有了什么新想法。

Well, but, that, there's always the chance that tomorrow somebody will say that to me or I've got something.

因为现在你手头的资金，我不知道最新的数额是多少，已经超过300亿了。

Because now you have, I don't know what the latest cash amount is, it's over 300 and

超过3亿美元。

It's over 300,000,000.

远超30亿，是100亿。

Well over 3 It's 100

超过3亿美元。

over 300,000,000.

更多，更多

It's more, it's more

现金比富时100指数所有股票的总价值还要高。

cash than the value of all of the stocks in the FTSE one hundred.

是的。

Yeah.

这意味着，当我观察股市、寻找那些规模足以对我们总资产产生影响的公司时，我看不到什么值得买的——我们确实买了的一两样东西，但都微不足道。

And it means that when I look at the stock market, when I look at companies of a size that would make any difference to our total, I don't see anything of well, we're buying one or two things but it's peanuts.

但我今天下午愿意花掉一千亿美元。

But I'm willing to spend 100,000,000,000 this afternoon.

很高兴我今天在这里。

Glad I'm here today.

不。

No.

不，我宁愿用一千亿美元投资一个真正优秀且价格合理的商业模式，而不是持有一千亿美元的现金。

No I'd rather have the 100,000,000,000 in a really good business model at a sensible price than have 100,000,000,000 in cash.

我知道现金水平为零是必要的，但现金并不是一种好的资产。

I know the cash, I mean is zero levels necessary but cash is not a good asset.

是的。

Yeah.

你需要氧气，你知道的。

You need, you need oxygen, you know.

你不需要被氧气包围，也不必为此花很多钱。

You don't, you don't need to be surrounded by, you don't have to pay a lot for it or anything like that.

但你确实需要氧气。

But you do need oxygen.

如果你有四五分钟没有它，你会明白的。

And if you ever without it for four or five minutes, you know, it will learn.

现金也是这个道理。

And cash is that way.

所以你总是需要随时拥有它，因为你不知道会发生什么。

So you always, you always need to have it available because you do not know what will happen.

我不知道股市会怎样，也不知道商业会如何发展。

I do not know what the stock market will do and I do not know what business will do.

我从这个假设开始，不管那是多少年前，到目前为止，我还没有学会预测股市会怎样。

I started out with that assumption, you know, however many years ago it was, and I haven't learned anything about what the stock market was gonna do.

我没找到答案。

I didn't find it.

我可能读遍了公共图书馆里的每一本书，但当时我依然没找到答案，无法预测股市下周、下月或下一年会如何。

I may have read every book in the public library but I didn't find the answer then to the question of what the stock market was gonna do next week or next month or next year.

我都试过了。

I tried it all.

我做过图表，做过各种各样的事情。

I did charts and all kinds of things.

我在寻找某种东西，但后来我发现，以我的看法，那种东西根本不存在。

I I was looking for something but it turned out I was looking for something that in my opinion doesn't exist.

但我仍然觉得这个游戏很有趣，于是我就换了一副本·格雷厄姆给我的眼镜来看待它，我发现，如果你……这其实是个你几乎不可能输的游戏。

And but I still found the game interesting so then I looked at it through a different set of glasses that Ben Graham handed me, and I saw this was a game you couldn't you couldn't you couldn't lose really if you

遵循了他的规则。

followed his rules.

接下来。

Coming up.

你知道吗，他说如果你非常富有，就应该留给孩子们足够的钱，让他们能做任何事，但不要多到让他们无所事事。

You know, he said if you're super rich, you should leave your kids enough so they can do anything, but not enough so they can do nothing.

是什么让你有信心去做一些以前没人做过的事？

What made you confident that you could do something that hadn't been

之前没人做过的事？

done before?

我不害怕失败。

I have no fear of failure.

开拓进取的女性正在改变游戏规则。

Trailblazing women changing the game.

我最喜欢的一条建议是：想想你的老板的老板需要什么。

One of my favorite pieces of advice, think about what your boss's boss needs.

领导力可以以多种多样的形式呈现。

Leadership can look in many, many different forms.

归根结底，就是要相信自己。

It really does come down to just trusting yourself.

人生短暂，而且

Life is short, and

你必须心怀远大目标，才能成就大事。

you just gotta think big to accomplish big things.

朱莉娅·博尔森主持CNBC《变革者》和《权力人物》。

Julia Borson hosts CNBC Changemakers and Power Players.

新节目每周二在您收听播客的平台上线。

New episodes every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts.

你曾表示，你将把99%以上的财富捐出，以尝试解决这些意外问题。

You have said that you are going to have 99% plus of your money that is given away to try and solve some of those problems of the accident.

这并不能彻底解决这些问题，但可以帮助解决某些具体问题。

It won't solve them, but it can help solve certain specific problems.

如果有人没钱上学，而奖学金能帮上忙，那它确实有积极作用，关键在于你如何管理这类事情，如何做正确的事。

If somebody is going, you know, can't doesn't have the money to go to school and, you know, and the scholarship does I mean, it does some good, you know, and how well you administer something like that and, you know, how you do the right thing.

但有些问题是金钱无法解决的，当我最初思考慈善时，我认为这本质上就像原子弹带来的威胁。

But there are certain problems money doesn't or can't solve and when I first thought about philanthropy I thought that essentially was the threat that the atom bomb presented.

我的意思是，1945年8月，当我15岁时，爱因斯坦说，这改变了世界上的一切，唯独没改变人们的思维方式。

I mean Einstein in August 1945 when I was 15 said that this changes everything in the world except how people think.

但自那以后，人们一直在思考这个问题，却依然没有根本改变——他们只是从认为只有一个国家拥有核武器，变成了后来苏联也拥有了，当时我们对苏联拥有核武器感到恐惧，尤其是考虑到当时美苏两国的领导人，比如肯尼迪和赫鲁晓夫。

But people have thought about it ever since and they still haven't the only progress they have made is they have gone from what they thought was one country to Abbott and then when the Russians or the Soviets got it, you know, we were terrified with the idea of Soviets in The United States with two pretty sound leaders, I mean, the Kennedy the Khurzov.

现在我们有八个，快到九个国家拥有核武器了，我们知道，有些人的存在让人胆寒，万一他们手里有枪或核武器，后果不堪设想。

Now we have eight going on nine and we know we've got some people that scares the hell out of you if they got a pop gun or a nuclear weapon.

但这场游戏并没有停止，而当初只有一个国家拥有核武器时，情况要好得多。

And the game hasn't stopped, but it was a lot better when only one country had it than one more.

我的意思是，两个国家拥有能互相毁灭的武器，和只有一个国家拥有，这之间的差别巨大，但如今回头看，那才是真正的黄金时代。

I mean the difference between two countries having a weapon that can destroy each other and one was huge, but now since then, you know, now the two were the good old days.

你对慈善的理念再次发生了变化。

Your philosophy on philanthropy again has changed.

你提到这是在最初的时候。

You mentioned that was at the beginning.

你一生都因没有更早捐出更多钱而受到批评。

And you have gotten criticism your whole life for not giving away more money sooner.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，如果你看那些有未来和资金的人，你应该让那些会愚蠢使用金钱的人来使用资金。

You know, if you looked at the people with their future and with funds, you should use the people who are going to use their money unintelligently.

你应该让他们资助当前的开支，而让那些为未来积累资金的人真正积累你的资产。

You should have them fund the current expenditures and you should have the people who are going to build the funds for the future actually accumulating your paper.

现在他们积累资金，因为你将使资金复利增长为更大的数额，并且会更明智地进行投资。

Now that accumulating their money because you're going to compound it into larger sums and you're going have it more intelligently invested.

这听起来非常自私，而它确实如此，你知道。

And that sounds very self serving, which it is, you know.

所以我们做得慢得多。

And so we did it much more slowly.

我认为我仍然会做同样的事情，但我本希望得到更好的结果。

And I think I would still do the same thing, but I would have hoped for a better result.

我放弃了所谓的核资金。

And I gave up on the, in effect, on the nuclear money.

解决这个问题。

Solving that problem.

我不知道钱如何解决这个问题。

I do not know how money solves it.

我不认为我可以从天上撒美元，就能让人放弃他们的核武器。

I do not think I can drop dollar bills from the sky and get somebody to get rid of their nuclear weapons.

你现在有了

You now have

如果我能拿出我拥有的全部东西

If I could lay out whatever I have got

超过一百

North of 100

五千亿美金，我就能挑出三个国家，让它们立刻永久放弃核武器，只需五秒钟。

and and 50,000,000,000 I could pick out three countries that would permanently get out of the nuclear game, would do it in five seconds.

我不会在那里干等。

I wouldn't wait around them.

我会不惜一切代价，直接去做。

I would die or do anything else, just do it.

我的意思是，那才是真正了不起的事。

I mean that would really be something.

现在你手上有超过一千五百亿美元，而且还在增长，而且

Well now you have north of $150,000,000,000 and growing and

嗯，它在增长，但这要看情况。

Well, it's growing, well it depends.

我不会下定论。

I won't call it.

好吧，我们称之为增长，但可能性是它会继续增长。

Well, we call it But the odds are it grows.

是的。

Yeah.

你希望怎么处理这件事？

What do you want done with this?

在你有生之年，你不会卖出一股伯克希尔的股票。

You're not going to sell a single share of Berkshire while you're alive.

活着，是的，

Live Yeah,

但我不会活那么久，你知道的。

but I'm not going live that long, you know.

我的意思是，我和我的孩子们都愿意这么做。

I mean, I'm and my kids are willing to do it.

我完全信任他们。

I trust them 100%.

我最近刚坐下来和你的三个孩子谈过，了解他们如何看待这一切，以及这份责任。

I've sat down with your three kids recently and talked to them about how they see all of this, just the responsibility.

这件事的规模之大。

The enormity of it.

你们三个人，你们的父亲已经向全世界表示，你们将负责决定如何处理他过去六十年在伯克希尔积累的全部财富。

The three of you, your father has told the world, are going to be responsible for figuring out what to do with all the money that he has built up in Berkshire over the last sixty years.

当他刚开始告诉你们的时候，你们是怎么想的？他什么时候开始跟你们谈的？

What did you think when he started telling you that, when he started getting to you guys?

他是什么时候来找你们的？

When did he come to you?

他跟你们说了什么？

What did he tell you?

你们当时是怎么想的？

What were your thoughts?

我想，我们最好能和睦相处。

I thought, well, we better get along.

两年前，

Two Something years ago,

两年前多一点，

a little over two years ago,

是的。

Yeah.

医生。

Doctor.

是的。

Yeah.

怎么回事？我不太清楚，医生。

What how did what I don't exactly Doctor.

差不多就开始谈这个了。

Sort of started talking about it.

是的。

Yeah.

我都记不清了

I don't even remember

怎么了，医生。

what Doctor.

那大概是两年前的三月。

It was probably March, two years ago.

所以，不管怎样，是的。

So whatever, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，就是想到，哇，你每天跳着踢踏舞去上班，持续六十年，然后，砰的一下，你就这样了。

And, you know, just the idea of, wow, you're tap dance to work every day for sixty years and then, boom, you're gonna There you go.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

而且我真不记得当时对我们有什么重大宣布。

And I don't really remember that it was like some big announcement to us.

他只是突然开始谈起这件事。

He just sort of started talking about it.

是的。

Yeah.

而且他

And he

在我们陆续处理遗嘱的时候，有一些暗示。

kind of, there were hints kind of as we went through the wills at certain times.

我的意思是，有些事情是逐渐演变的，然后他就这么决定了。

Mean, kind of, some of it evolved and then he just kind of decided.

但我认为其中一些事情还是有预兆的。

But I think there is a little bit of telegraphing of some of it.

不是具体的形式或如何发生的，但因为我们每次他立新遗嘱时都会坐下来，他会问：你们有什么问题或想法吗？

Not exactly what form or how it happened but because we went through, you know, when he would do a new will, we would sit down and he would say, you you have any questions or ideas or whatever.

至少十年前，他就变得非常愿意讨论这件事了。

He became really pretty open about discussing that like at least ten or twelve years ago.

是的，他一直很坦诚，因为遗嘱已经修改过好几次了，他始终很愿意谈论这件事，而且如果我们有什么问题，他也会随时解答。

Yeah, he's been very open about it because he's, you know, the Will's gone through a few iterations and over the he's always been really open about talking about it and you know, if we have any questions.

我的意思是，他总是在各个角落写满小纸条。

Mean, always have little notes written all around the niches.

我的意思是，他也一直很公开地向外界表明这一点。

Mean, he's been open about telling the world that too.

是的。

Yeah.

他认为这是正确的方式。

He thinks it's the right way.

这才是该做的正确方式。

That's the right way to do it.

是的。

Yeah.

尤其是当你的孩子都长大了，你不想留下任何疑问，也不想让他们困惑你为什么那样做。

Especially when your your kids are older, you don't wanna leave questions afterwards and you don't want them why you did things.

他一这么做，我所有孩子都给我打电话，问：‘我们什么时候吃饭？’

As soon as he did that, all my kids called me and said, When do we ever eat?

不，我开玩笑的。

No, I'm kidding.

但关键是，他积累了这笔财富。

But again, the big thing is he amassed this wealth.

因此，我不想留下这样的感觉：这是我希望它如何被处理的。

And so to not be left with a sense of this is what I'd like to see happen with it.

我的意思是，从他二十几岁写信给朋友说‘我会富有，但我不想让我的孩子变得富有’开始，他就一直深思熟虑，早就预见了未来的发展。

I mean, he thinks things through so thoroughly from the time he was in his 20s writing a friend saying, know I'm going to be wealthy and I don't want my kids to be he's known for forecasting what's

即将到来的，

coming,

我的意思是，当然，从他每天的工作来看，但他真的进行了全面的思考。

I mean, duh, in terms of the work he does every day, but really thinking it through.

所以，他把这件事公开出来，却没有给我们任何明确的指示。

So to put this out there without giving us any explicit instructions.

他给我们一些模糊的想法，告诉我们他希望看到什么发生，但从来没有任何明确的指示，坦白说，这有点让人困惑，我真希望我们能得到更多指导，因为这是你的钱。

He's given us some sense of what he would like to see happen in an abstract sense but there's never been and that, you know, again frankly that's a little bit, Gee, I wish we could have a little more guidance because it's your money.

这不是我们的钱。

It's not ours.

是的，但这一点在伯克希尔多年来的一些做法中也是一致的，因为他知道事情总会变化。

Yeah, but that's consistent even in some of the things over the years with Berkshire because he knows things are going to change.

没错。

Right.

他无法预测。

And he can't predict

是的，他能。

Yeah, he can.

所以，是的。

And so Yeah.

你知道，他会提供那些他当时认为合理、或者至少觉得合理的东西，但不会试图去预测未来。

You know, he provides what he feels confident will make sense at the time or at least thinks will make sense at the time but not try to predict it.

不要试图

Not try to

是的，没错。

That's, yeah.

他几年前在谈到STB基金会的工作时曾说过，那时候的钱远没有现在这么多。

He said years ago when he's talked about just about STB foundation work, he has said, you know, this is way before there was as much money as there is now.

他曾经说过，这就是我现在认为重要的事。

And he has said, you know, this is what I think matters now.

我母亲显然也对此非常明确。

My mother obviously was also clear about that.

但他也一直说，我不确定在我去世十年或二十年后，这是否仍然成立。

But he's also always said, I don't know if that'll be true in twenty years after I'm dead or ten years after I'm dead or whatever.

因此，我认为他一直不愿用‘你们必须把钱花在这些地方’来束缚我们，因为他会说，那些可能不再重要，而其他事情会变得更重要。

And so he's always, I think not wanted to constrain us with, you know, here's what you have to spend it on because he would say that may not matter and then something else will matter more.

那么，他给了你们什么样的指导？

So what guidance has he given you?

我听说的唯一一件事，其实也是他公开说过的内容，就是他希望这笔钱能用于帮助那些人，你知道，该用什么词呢？

The only thing I've heard is what he's also said publicly really, which is he hopes that the money can go to people, you know, what word do you use?

处境不利的人，比如生活在贫困线以下的人，总之要能以某种方式影响那些通常没有我们这样多机会、很多人也没有的群体。

Less fortunate, you know, below the poverty level, you know, whatever it is that it would in some way affect a population that normally doesn't have the same kinds of opportunities that certainly we have and a lot of people don't have.

我就听说过这些

That's all I've

是的，最大的挑战将是平衡这一事实。

Yeah, biggest challenge will be balancing the fact.

但当我说这个时，他已经为此提供了一些缓冲空间。

But he has provided, when I say this, he's provided some cushion on this.

但要平衡他希望这笔钱在十年左右内花掉这一事实。

But balancing the fact that he wants to see this money spent in ten years more or less.

同时还要平衡如何失去对伯克希尔投票权股份的控制。

And then balancing that with how you lose control over Berkshire voting shares.

我的意思是，这就是

I mean that's the

没错，这就是平衡的关键。

big That's balancing correct.

你知道，除非身临其境，否则你无法弄清楚这一点。

You know, and you can't figure that out until you're in that moment.

随着时间推移，情况会发生变化。

And as some time starts to go by because there's gonna be the dynamics change.

会出现一些事情，董事会里的任何人，包括我们，都无法预测。

There's gonna be things that happen that no one on that board, none of us can try to anticipate.

我们可以预测一些事情。

We can anticipate some things.

有些事情会很明显，而另一些则不会那么明显。

Some things will be obvious, and others won't be so obvious.

你也不知道他们是谁，他们想要什么。

And you don't know who they are, what they're after.

因此，这可能会影响你希望多快地放弃投票权。

So that could affect how fast you wanna lose or give up voting power.

在这一点上，你似乎也有一定的灵活性。

It feels like you have a little flexibility on that count too.

是的。

Yeah.

就像我们

Just as we

他都已经

He all has gotten

更灵活了。

more flexible.

是的。

Yeah.

当他告诉你三人要一起做这件事，必须达成一致，并且由你们全权负责时，你心里是怎么想的？

What did you think when he said that you three were gonna be doing this, doing it together, it had to be unanimous, and you're in charge of all of it.

你想要这个职位吗？

Did you want the job?

不。

Nope.

彼得真的不想要。

Peter really didn't want.

我不想要这个。

I did not want it.

我讲得很清楚。

I made that clear.

是的。

Yeah.

真的，当我打电话给他，说我想退出时。

Really And honestly, when I called him up and said, you know, I want to opt out.

他说，我不怪你。

He said, I don't blame you.

是的。

Yeah.

我们会对所有人这么说

We'd say that to all

我们所有人。

of us.

他其实觉得我们必须这么做有点好笑。

He actually thinks it's kind of funny that we have to do this.

是的。

Yeah.

而且他明白这会给我们带来巨大的压力。

And understands that it'll put us obviously enormous pressure on us.

所以，正如我们一直说的，我们到底该怎么办？

And so the idea again, like we've been saying around what are we going to do?

变量太多了。

It's like there's too many variables.

我们此刻不知道该做什么。

Have no what we're going to do in this moment.