宇宙问答——宇宙的起源，与简娜·莱文

对吧？

Right?

因为这其实根本无关紧要。

Because that doesn't even really matter.

我可以随便走动。

I can move around.

宇宙应该是一样的。

The universe should be the same.

但我知道，在这个房间里，情况不一样。

But I know that in this room, it's not.

我知道我的麦克风在我左边，这就不一样了。

I know that my microphone's on my left, and that's different.

这在物理上打破了对称，尽管物理定律在左右两边本该是一样的。

That's broken it just physically even though the laws of physics should be the same on my left and right.

我现在特别喜欢你们脸上的表情。

I love the looks on your faces right now.

给那些只听声音的人说一下，我刚才好像一下子长了四只眼睛。

For anyone who is just listening, I just got, like, four eyes.

哦，确实。

Oh, yeah.

这简直让人懵了。

And it's like, what the hell?

你一提到平行宇宙，我就忍不住想多了，脑子里全是各种宇宙的场景，比如：你可得好好管管你那帮孩子。

Well, you First of all, you you had me at baby universes because my mind just started going off to all these other universes that were just like, you better take care of your kids.

你孩子太多了。

You you got too many kids.

你孩子实在太多了。

You got too many kids.

是啊。

Yeah.

说不定真存在一个

There could be a

外面可能有大量小小宇宙，其中一些，按我们看重的标准——比如智慧生命的出现——来说，算是不太成功的。

whole bunch of little baby universes out there, some of which are are, you could say, less successful on the basis of what we think is important, which is the emergence of sentient life.

你不可能指望暗物质能孕育出多少智慧生命，对吧？

You know, you're not gonna make a lot of sentient life out of dark matter presumably.

不过也有可能，暗物质领域自成一个完整的现实世界。

Now there could also be this thing where the dark matter sector has its whole reality.

它也能形成恒星和星系。

It it makes stars and galaxies.

只是我们看不见而已。

We just can't see them.

而它能看见自己的一切，拥有完全独立的现实，我们和它就像平行存在，彼此完全看不见。

And it sees them, and it has this whole other reality, and we're just like in parallel, completely invisible to each other.

暗物质星系、暗物质恒星、暗物质行星。

Dark galaxies, dark stars, dark planets.

好吧。

And Alright.

所以根据我读过的那些内容，我对这个话题只是大概了解，就像晚上新闻里听来的那样。

So so so from what I've read, and I have a cursory understanding of this, I have, like, an evening news account of this.

从宇宙早期到现在，物质、引力、暗物质和暗能量在不同时期展现自身影响力的方式和强弱都不一样。

At different times from the early universe to today, matter, gravity, dark matter, dark energy all have different ways or different strengths of their capacity to manifest.

对的。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

明白了。

Okay.

那现在是谁占主导地位呢？

So so who's dominating today?

如今我们知道，宇宙的整体能量密度主要由暗能量主导。

So today, we know that the overall energy density of the universe is dominated by dark energy.

就像你刚才说的，这在非常遥远的过去可不是这样。

And exactly as you said, that was not true very, very far in the past.

这就像是在不同阶段互相竞争的各种成分组成的汤。

It it it's like it's like a a soup of ingredients that compete at different phases.

暗能量很特别，随着宇宙膨胀，因为它无处不在，感觉上它的量反而增加了。

And the dark energy, the strange thing about dark energy is as the universe expands, because the dark energy is everywhere, it's like it feels more of it.

所以膨胀变得越来越快，而你感受到的暗能量也更多，因为它根本不会像其他东西那样被稀释。

So the expansion gets a little faster and then it feels even more of it because it's It just doesn't how we dilute.

比如我如果把一锅热气膨胀开来，它就会变稀、变弱。

Like if I took a hot gas and I expanded it, it would dilute and get weaker.

但暗能量不一样。

Dark energy.

早期宇宙中的物质汤也是这样运作的。

And that's what happens to the primordial soup of matter in the early universe.

那时候它非常强大。

It's really powerful.

密度高得惊人。

It's totally dense.

所以我们的引力在减弱。

So we're diluting our gravity.

对。

Mhmm.

我们的引力在减弱，但暗能量却没有。

We're diluting our gravity and not diluting the dark energy.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

So that's right.

宇宙膨胀意味着我们和别的星系离得越来越远，所以它们对我们的引力影响也就变弱了。

The expansion is we're getting further and further away from other galaxies, so that's diluting their gravitational effect on us.

但暗能量的强度保持不变。

But the dark energy is staying the same.

明白了。

Okay.

所以你把这两者一比，暗能量就系统性地占了上风。

So you compare the two, the dark energy systematically wins out.

最终它一定会胜出。

Eventually, it'll win.

即使一开始，你懂的，那些物质——不一定是星系，而是普通物质——占主导地位。

Even if in the beginning the gal you know, this not necessarily galaxy, but, like, the stuff dominated.

然后宇宙不断膨胀，物质变得越来越稀薄，作用也越来越弱。

And then the universe was expanding, and it got more and more dilute and weaker and weaker.

而暗能量就在那儿，悄无声息地接管了一切。

And then the dark energy, there it was, and it just took over.

所以暗能量是靠膨胀的真空来维持的。

So dark energy feeds off the vacuum of an expanding

这其实就是膨胀宇宙中真空本身的能量。

Well, this is it might be the energy of the vacuum of the expanding universe.

真空越多，从真空里产生的能量也就越多。

So the more vacuum you get, the more energy from the vacuum you get.

说来奇怪，这让我想起《神秘博士》里那个哭泣天使的剧情，那些天使会吸走人的生命能量。

You know, weirdly, that reminds me of the weeping angels episode of Doctor Who, where weeping angels, they feed off of your life energy.

对。

Mhmm.

你就会从现在消失，突然出现在过去，因为你的时间和生命力都被它们夺走了。

And you disappear out of your time and you show up in the past because they took your present life energy from you.

所以暗能量，它正在吞噬我们所剩无几的一切。

So dark energy is is is taking whatever we possibly had left of ourselves.

这简直就是宇宙级的吸血鬼。

It's a cosmic vampire.

没错，就是个吸血鬼。

It's a vampire.

它干的就是这事儿。

That's what it's doing.

照这样下去，我有个朋友以前总说，我们现在得赶紧搞天文学，因为再过极其遥远的未来，天上连一个星系都看不到了。

Keeps going like this you know, a friend of mine, used to say, we have to do astronomy now because eventually eventually, in the very far future, there will be no galaxies in view anymore.

它们都会远得让我们看不见。

They'll all be too far away for us to see.

那就不存在宇宙学了。

There'd be no cosmology.

那就不存在宇宙学了。

There'd be no cosmology.

那就不存在宇宙学了。

There'd be no cosmology.

我们只能看到自己的星系，其他地方的天空都会是空的。

We'll just see our galaxy and the rest of the sky will be empty.

想象一下，在那种情况下搞天文学，我们根本不会知道宇宙中还有别的东西。

Imagine astronomy under those circumstances, we'd never know that there was anything outside of our

可直到1920年以前，情况就是这样的。

Well, that's what it was until 1920.

在1920年之前，没人知道那些模糊的天体其实是星系。

Until 1920, no one had any idea that the fuzzy objects were galaxies.

那时候人们只知道太阳系和夜空中的星星。

It was just the solar system and the stars in the night sky.

对。

Yeah.

那就是当时人们所认识的整个宇宙。

And that was the universe.

事实上，爱因斯坦也是这么认为的。

In fact, that was the universe to Einstein.

是的。

Mhmm.

那时候没人理解大爆炸，或者其他任何东西。

There was no understanding of a big bang or anything else.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以当时人们就以为宇宙就这么点大。

That's so it was just Yeah.

不是。

No.

事实上，最早提出大爆炸理论的是谁？

In fact, when did who's the guy who first advanced the big bang?

是那位修士还是神父？

The the monk or the the priest?

勒梅特？

Lemaitre?

勒梅特。

Lemaitre.

勒梅特。

Lemaitre.

那位比利时神父。

The Belgian priest.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yes.

真正为爱因斯坦方程奠定数学基础的是谁？

Who really put the math behind Einstein's equations.

那时候他有没有看到哈勃发现的宇宙膨胀？

Did he by then have Hubble's expanding universe?

他肯定看到了，

He must have,

我觉得是这样。

I think.

弗里德曼、勒梅特，还有罗伯逊、沃克这些人，其实早在哈勃之前就一直在研究这些问题。

So Friedman and LaMatia and some of these, you know, and Robertson and Walker, there were a bunch of cosmologists that were thinking about this long before actually Hubble.

但爱因斯坦觉得他们全搞错了。

And Einstein thought they were wrong.

所以爱因斯坦发表了理论，但他根本不知道宇宙大爆炸这回事。

So Einstein publishes his theory, but he doesn't he doesn't know that there's a big bang.

这可不是一目了然的事。

It's not like it just hits you in the face.

你得深入研究这个理论的机制。

You to study the mechanics of the theory.

所以早在他之前，就有人开始研究，发现这事儿真不寻常。

And so people jumped in even before he did and they realized, Oh, this is really strange.

如果你想象一个由普通物质主导的宇宙——那时候他们还不知道暗物质，只知道普通物质——它其实倾向于膨胀。

If you imagine a universe dominated by matter, they didn't even know about dark matter, but just stuff, It actually wants to expand.

这其实很困难。

It's actually hard.

这样的宇宙并不想保持静止。

That universe doesn't want to just stay static.

要让它保持静止，简直难上加难。

It's actually really, really hard to make it static.

所以他们

So they

所以我想，他们在还不了解星系之前，就已经在想象一个膨胀的宇宙了。

So I guess what I'm thinking is they're imagining an expanding universe before they even knew anything about galaxies.

没错。

That's right.

他们只是在想夜空中的那些星星。

They're just thinking stars in the night sky.

他们只是在想象整个宇宙。

They were just imagining universe.

是的。

Yeah.

他们只是想象到处都充斥着炽热的物质。

They were just imagining, like, a hot stuff everywhere.

你懂的。

You know?

就当是假设吧。

Just pretend.

那其实有点像是在想象。

It was kind of pretend.

如果没有星系，我们就根本无从了解宇宙的起源，那可就太无知了。

So without galaxies, we have no knowledge of an origin of the universe, and we'd be dumb stupid.

是的。

Yeah.

所以啊，我们现在确实得搞天文学。

So, yeah, we have to do astronomy now.

对。

Yeah.

因为总有一天，我们会回到那种状态。

Because because one day we're going back to that same state.

没错。

Yes.

但那是因为那些星系再也看不到了。

But only because it those galaxies won't be observable.

根本不会。

At all.

没错。

Right.

根本不会。

At all.

但将来会有人对子孙说：你信不信，以前的人会抬头看天空。

But it'll be somebody will be like, son, believe it or not, there was a time where people looked up into the sky.

那时候。

Time.

他们以为自己看到了一些东西，孩子。

And they and they thought that they saw things, son.

哦，查克爷爷，再讲讲。

Oh, grandpa Chuck, tell

跟我说说什么时候

me more when

你那时候

you were

还是个孩子。

a child.

你信不信，孩子。

Believe it or not, son.

他们以前抬头看天，能看见各种东西，但现在再也看不到了。

They used to look up there and see things, but no longer.

我们过去用来证明宇宙大爆炸的大部分证据，最终都会渐渐消失。

It's typically most of the evidence that we had a big bang in our past will eventually just fade away.

所以，贾娜，在我们休息之后，回答大家关于宇宙的问题之前，我晚上睡不着时一直在想：我们今天是不是正生活在一个时代——整个一章的数据，已经被从我们的认知中抹去了，就像未来当星系都不复存在时那样。

So so, Janna, before we take a break and then get to our actual cosmic queries with people's questions, what I lose sleep at night wondering whether we today live in a time where an entire chapter of data has been removed from our awareness, just as it will be in the day when there are no galaxies.

确实如此。

In indeed.

我的意思是

I mean

在末日后的文明里，他们将完全不知道查克讲述的那些过往故事，只能凭手头有限的线索去探索宇宙。

In a post apocalyptic civilization, they will know nothing of Chuck's stories about the day gone by, and they will try to figure out the universe with what they've got.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，我们现在以为自己掌握了全部数据，实际上却错过了哪些关键篇章呢？

So what what chapters are we missing today thinking we have full access to all the data, yet we don't?

这挺讽刺的，我晚上睡不着，是因为我睡前常喝伏特加。

And that's funny because I lose sleep because I normally drink vodka before bedtime.

不过原因不一样。

For different reasons.

谁会睡不着觉？

Who loses sleep?

明白了。

Okay.

我们真该准备点小酒，要是谁答错了宇宙问题，就喝一口。

We should, yeah, we should have little shots for our like, if you get if you get the cosmic query wrong.

所以呢，你知道的，

So so, know,

你就只是担心我们会不会漏掉了什么吗？

just Janna, do so worry about whether we're missing something?

我确实很担心。

I totally do.

但我觉得这个问题特别有意思，因为总有人说，如果根本没法观测到多重宇宙，那它就不算科学问题。

But I think this is a really interesting question because people say things like, if there's no way to observe the multiverse, then it's not a scientific question.

我觉得这种说法不对。

I think that's false.

比如在遥远的未来，如果人们说根本没法观测到其他星系，也不知道为什么，有人就断言，可能是因为宇宙膨胀得太快，那些星系已经超出了我们的视野——他们其实说对了。

For instance, in the far future, if people say there's no way to observe other galaxies and I don't know why and one person pontificates, maybe it's because the universe was expanding so rapidly that they're now beyond our view, they'd be right.

但对那时候的人来说，这根本没法验证。

But it's technically untestable for them.

没错。

Right.

我觉得这仍然是一个科学问题，即使我们没法通过观测来解决它。

I I do think it's a scientific question even if you can't resolve it observationally.

比如说，如果宇宙存在额外的空间维度，而目前这些维度非常微小，我们却很大，那也许我们现在根本没法检验它。

So, yeah, there are things like if the universe has extra spatial dimensions and and right now they're really small and we're really big, maybe that's something we can't test right now.

但在遥远的过去，这在技术上可能是可以检验的。

But maybe in the far, far past, it was technically testable.

等一下。

Wait.

所以，查克，她的意思是，有一天，一个新的维度会从你身体侧面长出来。

So, Chuck, she's saying one day, a new dimension is gonna grow out the side of your body.

她就是这个意思。

That's what she

你相信吧。

Believe me.

自从疫情以来，这种事情其实已经发生了。

Since the pandemic, that has already happened.

幸运的是，我们镜头只拍到上半身。

Mercifully, we're all, like, filmed from here up.

查克有六条腿和五只脚。

Chuck has six legs and five feet.

我们得赶紧休息一下。

We gotta we gotta take a quick break.

回来之后，简娜，就靠你了。

When we come back, Janna, you're here for us.

对。

Yes.

等《星谈》回来，我们会回答赞助会员的问题。

We're gonna take questions from our Patreon members when StarTalk returns.

我是布莱恩·富特曼，我在Patreon上支持《星谈》。

I'm Brian Futterman, and I support StarTalk on Patreon.

这是尼尔·德葛拉司·泰森主持的《星谈》。

This is StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

我们回来了。

We're back.

《星谈》。

StarTalk.

宇宙问答。

Cosmic Queries.

今天是庆祝《星谈》第二本书《宇宙问答》的发布，这本书源自我们节目中的一个热门环节，也是《星谈》系列里最受欢迎的格式之一。

This is a celebration of the release of the second StarTalk book called Cosmic Queries, inspired by this spin off of our show, one of one of our more popular formats of the StarTalk portfolio.

查克，这次当然少不了你。

And, Chuck, I got you here for this, of course.

没错。

That's right.

今天我们来聊第三、四、五章。

And we're we're doing chapters three, four and five.

我把这些章节的标题都写在这儿了。

And I got their titles written here.

宇宙是怎么变成现在这样的？

How did the universe get to be this way?

宇宙有多老了？

How old is the universe?

宇宙到底是由什么组成的？

And what's the universe made of?

Chuck，你一直在收集这些问题。

And Chuck, you've been collecting questions.

我先来开个头吧。

Let me just lead off.

Janna，我听过有人说，宇宙是专门为我们而设计的。

Janna, I've heard people say the universe is designed just for us.

对吧？

Okay?

就是为了让我们能存在。

Just so that we can have life.

但如果生命——我们所关心的人类生命——只存在了区区二十万年，这未免太浪费了。

But that seems really inefficient if life as we care about it, human life, has been around only for a couple hundred thousand years.

宇宙已经存在了一百四十亿年。

The universe has been around for fourteen billion.

这实在太过浪费了。

That just seems really inefficient.

所以如果你说一切都是为了我们而安排的，那这简直是极大的时间和空间浪费。

So so if you want to say, you know, everything's set up for us, that's a pretty big waste of time and space.

是的。

Yeah.

尤其是我们在这儿就为了短暂地制造些塑料，然后一走，把塑料全留在这儿。

Especially if we're just here to make plastics for a little while, and then we're gonna go on and leave the plastic behind.

你懂的。

You know?

塑料会比我们活得更久。

Plastic will will survive us.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的。

You know?

这就像乔治·卡林的一个段子。

It's like a George Carlin skit.

他说，这地球就是想让我们替它生产点塑料，然后赶紧走人。

He's like, the planet just wanted us to make plastic for it and then be gone.

没错。

Right.

对。

Yeah.

因为目前还没发现有什么东西能分解塑料。

Because there's no known thing that dissolves plastic.

对吧？

Right?

是的

Yeah.

对

Right.

还没呢

Not yet.

所以，查克，给点问题吧，老兄。

So, Chuck, give me some questions, dude.

好的

Alright.

来吧

Here we go.

我们

Let's

全部来自 Patreon。

All from Patreon.

这条提问来自 Patreon 的 Richie Damani。

Give Everybody's it to from Patreon, and this is Richie Damani.

Richie Damani 说：首先，Janna、Neil、Chuck，谢谢你们回答我的问题。

Richie Damani says, firstly, Janna, Neil, Chuck, thanks for taking my question.

我们都知道 CERN 的大型强子对撞机在粒子物理领域取得了重大发现。

So we know about the LHC at CERN, which has made huge discoveries in particle physics.

但你们有没有听说过一个正在规划中的更大项目，

But do you have any knowledge of a larger project that is in consideration that

它将进一步推动我们对量子世界的理解。

will further our knowledge of the quantum world.

有的。

Yeah.

Janna，有没有哪种粒子，科学家认为它确实存在，但现在必须造出比大型强子对撞机更大的设备才能找到它？

Janna, is there another particle that people think is out there and now we need something bigger than the Large Hadron Collider to find it?

暗物质。

Well, dark matter.

大型强子对撞机已经非常成功了。

So so the Large Hadron Collider's been very successful.

这真的让人兴奋。

It's very exciting.

它发现了希格斯粒子，解释了为什么万物会有质量。

It discovered the Higgs particle, which explains why anything has mass.

你说的是希格斯粒子还是希格斯？

Did you say Higgs particle or Higgs

粒子。

particle?

希格斯。

Higgs.

我以为你说的是希格斯粒子。

I thought you said the Higgs particle.

希格斯粒子有点不一样。

The Higgs particle is a little different.

意思是希格斯粒子解释了你为啥吃负鼠。

That the Higgs particle explains why you eat possum.

这太不尊重文化了。

Very culturally insensitive.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

希格斯粒子就是让我觉得自己处在量子层面，你们懂吧。

Just the Higgs particle is just like, I believe I'm on a quantum level, y'all.

量子。

Quantum.

烧烤，这有可能吗？

Barbecue, that possible?

哦，大家平时俗称它为‘上帝粒子’，但最初诺贝尔奖得主莱昂·莱德曼想给它起名叫‘该死的粒子’，因为那时候还没找到它。

Oh, so you know, it's called the God Particle in sort of colloquially, but it was originally called the Goddamn Particle by Leon Letterman, the Nobel Prize winner.

他本来打算在书里用《该死的粒子》当书名，毕竟当时大家还没发现它。

He wanted to write a call in his book The Goddamn Particle because they hadn't found it yet.

结果出版社逼他改成了《上帝粒子》，他说这反而惹恼了两拨人——信上帝的和不信上帝的。

And his publisher made him change it to The God Particle, which he said ended up alienating two groups, those that believed in God and those that didn't.

所以这名字就这么定下来了。

So it's That's been great.

一直沿用到现在。

It's stuck.

对。

Yeah.

不过大型强子对撞机本来是有可能探测到暗物质的，那才是大家最期待的结果。

So but the LHC could have detected dark matter and that would have been really like That would have just been what everybody had mostly hoped for.

可惜并没有。

And it hasn't.

那我们能不能把能量再提高一点，再提高一点？

So could we go higher energy and higher energy?

如果你想想大型强子对撞机的能量，它对应的是宇宙早期的一个阶段。

If you think of the energy of the Large Hadron Collider, it's from a very early era in the universe's history.

那时候你应该能制造出各种各样的粒子。

And you'd expect to be able to make kind of everything.

回溯得越早，你能造出来的粒子就越多。

The earlier back you go, the more you can make.

能产生的粒子种类也就越多。

More kinds of particles I you can

我从来没这么想过。

never thought of it that way.

你这是说大型强子对撞机像个厨房？

You're telling me the LHC is a kitchen.

对。

Yeah.

这简直就是宇宙厨房。

It's it's a cosmic kitchen.

所以不管你用多高的能量，只要往宇宙的时间尺度上看，就能回溯到那个时刻。

And so if you whatever energy you hit, you just look on your cosmic scale and say, got you back to Right.

宇宙大爆炸后两秒。

Two seconds in the Big Bang.

没错。

Exactly.

能量再高一点，就能回溯到大爆炸后一秒半。

Then higher energy, I got you back to one and a half seconds.

对。

Yeah.

那我们需要多高的能量，才能探测到早期宇宙中暗物质形成的时候？

So where what how much how much more energy are gonna need to get to the formation of dark matter in the early universe?

大概要高出一千万倍。

Like, 10,000,000 times higher.

哦，明白了。

Oh, gotcha.

就这些。

That's all.

就这些。

That's all.

我们要举行选举。

We an election.

是的。

Yeah.

这个我们有。

We got that.

我们

We

这个我们也有。

got this.

没问题。

Not a problem.

对吧？

Right?

所以这个数值真的很高。

And so that's really high.

12.2亿瓦的能源。

1.22 gigawatts of energy.

这正是我们需要的。

That's what we need.

不对。

No.

让我告诉你实际情况。

Like, here's what's going on.

210亿瓦。

21 gigawatts.

我们还要回到过去。

And we're going back in time too.

所以就是这样。

So yeah.

尼尔正在看的那本食谱里说，如果你在某个温度下烹饪，就会产生一定数量的粒子，这完全是基于我们目前的理解。

So in the recipe book that Neil's looking at that tells you, if I cook at this temperature, I'm gonna have this number of particles, that's just based on as much as we understand.

而我们对大型强子对撞机的能量和宇宙大爆炸最初那一瞬间——那个极微小的时间片段——之间的理解，能量差距高达一千万倍，但这并不意味着我们就对了。

And as much as we understand between the the energy of the Large Hadron Collider and the very, very you know, the earliest second of the big micro tiniest little fraction of a second of the Big Bang is, like, 10,000,000 higher in energy, but it doesn't mean we're right.

所以可能会出现一些我们完全没想到的东西。

So there could be, like, a bunch of stuff that starts to appear that we had no idea about.

还有其他一些未知的现象。

And that's what it would Other stuff

比如一些未知的物质。

like stuff.

不只是暗物质可能会显现出来。

Not just, like, dark matter might appear on there.

你知道吧？

You know?

可能还有别的东西，也许暗物质并不是孤单的。

Other stuff might and maybe dark matter isn't alone.

也许存在着一个完整的暗物质领域，一个全新的暗世界，我们可能会发现大量的暗物质粒子和暗力。

Maybe there's, like, a whole dark sector, a whole dark reality, and we start to discover tons of dark matter, particles, and forces, dark forces.

所以，简娜，我很喜欢这个说法。

So, Janna, I love this.

你的意思是，更强大的对撞机可能会为我们打开一扇全新的门，让我们看到宇宙中正在发生的一切。

You're saying a a a more powerful collider could just open up a whole new door to what's going on in the in the universe.

是的。

Yeah.

用粒子来做烹饪。

Cooking with particles.

天哪。

Oh, dear.

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

我们确实知道做不到。

We do know that we can't.

用常规技术，我们永远无法达到某些能量尺度。

We will never hit certain scales with usual technology.

你得把整个太阳系的资源都集中起来，建一个和太阳系一样大的粒子对撞机。

Like, you would have to have all the resources in the solar system in a particle collider the size of the solar system.

所以我们才要研究天文学。

So that's why we do astronomy.

你需要1.21吉瓦的功率。

You need 1.21 gigawatts of power.

我觉得天文学的好处就在于，宇宙中的现象发生在远超人类工程能力的能量尺度上。

I think that's the benefit of astronomy is that stuff happens at higher energy scales than human beings can engineer.

所以我们知道，来自超新星爆发或某些恒星系统的高能粒子正在撞击我们的大气层，它们的能量远超大型强子对撞机。

And so we we know we have high energy particles hitting our atmosphere from supernova explosions or solar systems that are are at higher energies than the Hadron Collider.

所以宇宙比我们的大型强子对撞机更像一台强大的对撞机。

So the universe is a better Hadron Collider than our Large Hadron Collider.

没错。

That's right.

只是这么做更困难，你知道的。

It just requires you know, it's harder.

你没法控制它。

You can't manipulate it.

你没法逼它发生。

You can't force it.

你只能等着。

You just have to wait.

你得等到它自然产生你想要的现象。

You to wait until it makes what you want.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

如果这部分反过来找你麻烦，那你就知道，嗯，你确实存在了。

If a part of it bites you in the ass, it's like, okay, I guess you exist.

对。

Yeah.

这就跟当演员差不多。

So basically like being an actor.

别给我们打电话。

Don't call us.

我们会主动联系你。

We'll we'll call you.

没错。

Right.

正是如此。

Exactly.

只能等着它慢慢卷起来。

Just gotta wait for it to roll up.

好的。

Alright.

这样挺好。

So so that's good.

我喜欢这一点。

I I like that.

但在我们继续下一个问题之前，我想强调一下你之前提到的一个观点。

And so but I want to emphasize a point you made before we go to the next question.

你的意思是，在我们的生活经验里，如果一件事只持续三分钟、五秒甚至一秒，那时间本来就短，谁会在意那点差别呢？

What you're saying is, in our life experience, if something lasts three minutes or five seconds or one second, that's not very much time and who cares about the difference?

但在宇宙早期，有些现象只持续了万亿分之一秒，甚至更短的千万亿分之一秒。

But in the early universe, there are things that lasted a trillionth of a second, and then a quadrillionth of a second.

我们可能会说，哦，这不就是不到一秒钟吗？

And we say, oh, that's just less than a second.

但这些微小的时间差异，在宇宙早期的能量状态中却意味着巨大的不同。

But each of those are huge differences in the energetics of the early universe.

这样理解对吗？

Is that a fair way to think about it?

完全正确。

Absolutely.

比如，在最初的万亿分之一的万亿分之一的万亿分之一秒内，有些粒子会生成，然后迅速衰变成别的东西，而且以后再也不会出现了。

I mean, there's stuff that can be created in the first, you know, trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second that very quickly decay away into other stuff and will never be made again.

因为要制造出一个具有这种质量的粒子，所需的能量尺度虽然比起一杯咖啡来说微不足道，但对单个粒子而言已经极高了。

Because the energy scale required to create a single particle with that mass, even though the mass itself is objectively not a lot compared to, you know, a coffee cup, it's a lot for one particle.

这种粒子可能在整个宇宙的历史中，再也不会被制造出来了。

And it will never be made again probably in the history of the universe.

哇。

Wow.

所以，那些在第一万亿分之一秒内诞生、又在万亿分之一秒后消亡的粒子， yeah。

So anything that was born in the first trillionth of a trillionth of a second and dies a trillionth of a second later Yeah.

它们活了自己寿命的万亿倍。

Lived for a trillion of its own lifetimes.

是啊。

Yeah.

那可是完整的一生。

That was a full life.

没错。

Right.

天啊。

Man.

那就是它们的全部寿命。

That was its life expectancy.

哇。

Wow.

对。

Yeah.

你看这个。

Look at that.

好吧。

Okay.

我们确实认为，理论上有可能制造出有史以来最重的单个粒子——那就是一个微型黑洞。

So we do think, like, you could make in fact, it's possible that one of the heaviest single particles that ever could be made is a microscopic black hole.

它并不是由恒星死亡或物质坍缩形成的，而是在宇宙极早期作为量子粒子诞生的。

And that it was made not by dead stars, not by collapsing matter, but it was made as like a quantum particle in the very early universe.

它的质量相当于一小堆面粉，但体积却比原子核还要小得多。

And that it was the weight of like a little pile of flour, but it was incredibly smaller than a nucleus.

但要成为黑洞，它必须极其致密。

It's But very dense to be a black hole.

没错，就是黑洞。

It's black hole Exactly.

虽然体积小到极致，但质量却大得惊人。

It's very spatially tiny but heavy for its incredibly small spatial size.

要是我把钥匙掉进一个微观黑洞里……

And if I lost my keys into a microscopic black hole.

是的。

Yeah.

千万别伸手去掏，那样没用。

Don't don't reach in to pull them out because that ain't gonna work.

明白吗？

Okay?

往后退。

Do back.

查克，我再给你配一套钥匙。

Chuck, I'll get you another pair of keys, another set of

钥匙。

keys.

这简直就是《黑洞生存指南》第三章的内容。

That's like chapter three in Black Hole Survival Guide.

太棒了。

Sweet.

乔娜，这让我想起一件事，你记得吗？

So you know what this reminds me of, Janna?

我忘了是哪本书了，抱歉。

I forgot which book, forgive me.

但有个作家叫库尔特·冯内古特，他在某本小说里写过，这是人类说过的最后一句话。

But the the novelist Kurt Vonnegut, one of his novels, I he says, this is the last sentence ever spoken by humankind.

是一位科学家对另一位说的：要不咱们换种方式试试？

It was one scientist speaking to the other and says, let's try it the other way.

这句话一说完，文明就终结了。

That's the end of all civilization.

对。

Right.

那咱们看看能不能

So let's see if we can

制造一个微型黑洞。

make a a mini black hole.

人类说的最后一句话。

Last word ever spoken.

确实有人认真讨论过，大型强子对撞机会不会造出这样的东西。

Well, so there was some serious discussion about whether or not the Large Hadron Collider could make one of these.

一个微型黑洞。

A mini black hole.

一个微型黑洞。

A mini black hole.

我们通常觉得不可能，除非能量高到不可思议的程度。

And we usually think, no, you really couldn't until you were at the much, much, much higher energy.

但事实是，宇宙确实存在额外的空间维度，而且这些维度有特定的大小。

But it does turn out that the universe does have extra spatial dimensions and they're of a certain size.

你实际上可以调节引力的强度。

You could actually manipulate the strength of gravity.

你想啊，维度越多，空间越大，引力就越分散。

If you think about it, gravity dilutes when you have more dimensions, like more volume, it gets more dilute.

所以如果有这些额外维度，制造黑洞所需的能量门槛就会降低，因为引力因为这些维度而进入了我们的可及范围。

So if these dimensions, you start to notice it brings the scale of making black holes down in energy because gravity's getting getting into your range because of these extra dimensions.

等一下。

Wait.

你的意思是，如果有额外维度，引力就有更多空间可以扩散开？

So what you're saying is if you have extra dimensions, then the gravity has more space to dilute into.

是的。

Yeah.

那就意味着，引力产生危险效应的临界值也会更低。

That means that your thresholds of gravity bad stuff is lower.

更低了。

Is lower.

如果是这样，那在大型强子对撞机里就可能制造出黑洞。

So you might make a black hole at the Large Hadron Collider if that's the case.

当时有人申请禁令，试图阻止大型强子对撞机启动，因为大家担心：一旦造出黑洞，它就会把地球吞噬，把我们全灭了。

And so there were injunctions taken out by people to try to stop the Large Hadron Collider from turning on because there was this anxiety, well, if you're to make a black hole, it's going to, like, digest, know, it's going to consume the earth and the And kill us all.

没错。

Right.

但这个说法其实挺让人安心不了的，毕竟只是理论上的——这些黑洞会瞬间蒸发掉。

But the argument, which might not be very soothing because it is theoretical, is that they would evaporate too quickly.

它们会像鞭炮一样砰地一下就没了。

They would just go off like firecrackers.

所以你的意思是，我们也许真能造出黑洞，但霍金辐射会保护我们，不让它吞噬地球？

So you're saying you would possibly make them, and they would consume the Earth except that Hawking radiation protects us.

正是如此。

That's right.

我们看看。

And we look.

黑洞并没有人们说的那么危险。

Black holes are not as dangerous as people portray.

我们银河系的中心就有一个黑洞。

There's a black hole in the center of our galaxy.

我们围绕着这个黑洞运转。

We orbit that black hole.

它主导着整个星系的运行。

It dominates the entire behavior of the galaxy.

它可不是吸尘器。

And, doesn't it's not a vacuum cleaner.

对吧？

Right?

你得找找写《黑洞生存》那本书的人。

You have to the can person who wrote the book, Black Hole Survival Right.

没人会写这样的书。

No no one's no one writes a book

如果你想活命，就待在这儿就行。

If you wanna survive, just stay here, basically.

没人会写《小狗生存指南》。

No one writes the book, the puppy survival guide.

不会的。

No.

你写生存指南，得写那些会吃掉你的东西。

You write survival guides with stuff that's gonna eat you.

明白吗？

Okay?

是的。

Yeah.

这挺搞笑的。

That's funny.

这是小猫生存指南。

It's the kitten survival guide.

不对。

No.

不对。

No.

黑洞生存指南。

Black hole survival guide.

危险重重。

Peril.

对啊。

Yeah.

好吧。

Alright.

我们得休息一下。

We gotta take a quick break.

回来之后，继续聊聊宇宙那些事儿，欢迎收听《星谈》。

When we come back, more cosmic queries when StarTalk returns.

我们回来了。

We're back.

《星谈》宇宙问答时间。

StarTalk Cosmic Queries.

我们正在庆祝《星谈》第二本书《宇宙问答》的出版，这本书正是基于这个节目形式编写的。

We are celebrating the release of the second StarTalk book, Cosmic Queries, inspired by this format.

顺便说一下，书里不同章节我们会邀请不同的嘉宾来讨论。

By the way, we're gonna have different guests for the different kinds of chapters that are in the book.

现在我们要探讨一些非常深刻的问题，比如宇宙到底是由什么构成的，又是怎么变成今天这样的。

And right now, we've got some very deep questions about what's the universe made of and how did the universe get to be this way.

简娜·莱文，很高兴你又来了。

Janna Levin, always good to have you.

每次都特别有意思。

Always fun

给节目的一位朋友。

to a friend of the show.

谢谢，顺便说一下，你身后那个地方，哦，对了。

And thank and by the way, that place behind you Oh, yeah.

看起来像个掩体。

It looks like a bunker.

我是。

I am.

这地方看起来特别安静，根本找不到人。

It looks like a like a chill place to never be found.

那你现在在哪儿？

So where where are you right now?

我同时也是位于布鲁克林的先锋工坊的科学总监，这个机构最初是以艺术为主的。

So I am also director of sciences cultural center in Brooklyn called Pioneer Works, which is largely originated in the arts.

我在这里举办了很多科学活动，把科学带进社区。

And and I've been doing science events here and bringing science into the community.

这其实非常

It's very much an

你这分明就是想装出一副布鲁克林很潮的样子。

That is attempt just to so Brooklyn cool.

我真羡慕你。

You know, I'm I'm jealous.

我得说，我最喜欢这个地方的一点就是它完全免费、对所有人开放，只接受自愿捐赠。

I have to say, this is the what I love about this place, it's free and it's open to all, and it's a donation only model.

我们经常邀请特别出色的人来这儿，谈科学、谈艺术，办展览。

And we we really bring, like, amazing people here to talk about science, to talk about art, to have exhibitions.

对我们来说，让每个人都能自由进出，至关重要。

And it's really important to us that the doors are open for everybody.

科学和艺术的交汇点，比任何人想象的都要广阔得多。

And the intersection between science and art is much greater than anyone ever thinks about or imagines.

而你就站在这个交汇点的正中央。

And you're there in the middle of that.

没错。

So Yeah.

继续加油。

Keep up the good work.

好的。

Alright.

Chuck，给我们的宇宙学家提几个问题吧。

So Chuck, give me some questions for our cosmologist in the house.

简在这儿。

Janna Here

我们开始吧。

we go.

Tovey Sonnenberg问：泰森博士和莱文博士，您好。

Tovey Sonnenberg says, hey, doctor Tyson and doctor Levin.

有时候，物理学家会说，像轴子这样的粒子是被某种理论预言的，或者能完善某个理论。

Sometimes physicists say that the existence of a particle such as the axion is predicted by a theory or completes a theory.

他们这么说是什么意思？

What do they mean by this?

好问题。

Oh, good question.

嗯，这没关系。

Well, that's okay.

那我来告诉你最典型的例子是什么吗？

So let's you know what the best example of that is?

就是希格斯粒子，我们之前已经提过了。

Is the Higgs, which we already mentioned.

我们之前看过宇宙中所有物质的标准模型，但里面少了一块，因为如果不引入希格斯机制，我们就没法解释为什么粒子会有质量。

So we looked at the standard model of all the matter in the universe, and there was just like one thing missing because there was we couldn't make sense of why particles had masses essentially unless the Higgs was proposed.

希格斯粒子的作用，简单说就是让这一切成为可能。

So what the Higgs does, it's basically again, permits

但希格斯是个姓氏。

But Higgs was a person.

希格斯是一个人，他提出了

Higgs was a person who

这个人是谁？

Who's a person.

明白了。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

这个理论。

The theory.

希格斯粒子的概念是，宇宙中存在一种遍布整个空间的场，有点像我们所说的暗能量。

And the idea of the Higgs particle was that that there was this field that permeated all of space, kind of like what we think about dark energy.

有些人曾猜测，暗能量会不会就是像希格斯场那样遍布全宇宙的东西，但数据对不上。

So some people wondered if dark energy itself was like the Higgs permeating all of space, but the numbers didn't quite work out.

但它可能跟暗能量类似。

But it could be something like that dark energy.

它可能就像这种遍布整个空间的场。

It could be something like this field that permeates all space.

当我们穿过这个场时，由于与希格斯粒子的相互作用，就会产生一种惯性。

And as we move through this field, because of our interactions with the Higgs, it creates a kind of inertia.

我们变得黏稠，像被胶住了一样。

We get sticky, we get gluey.

就像在黏稠的液体里移动一样。

It's like viscous moving through it.

而这就是我们拥有质量的原因。

And that's what gives us mass.

对吧？

Right?

质量意味着我比顶针更难推动，但又比汽车更容易推动。

Mass means I'm harder to push around than a thimble, but I'm less hard to push around than a car.

这就是惯性。

There's inertia.

这种难以推动的感觉，其实源于我们与这个场的相互作用。

And this difficulty pushing around has to do with our interaction through the field.

这就是核心观点。

That's the idea.

所以希格斯粒子填补了一个理论空白。

So the Higgs particle was filling a gap.

这跟发现一个没人预料到的粒子是不一样的。

That's So that's different from discovering a particle that nobody ordered.

没错。

That's true.

就像罗比说的，这句话特别贴切。

So like Robbie said, it's a great quote.

那位物理学家罗比曾问过：谁点名要这些新粒子的？

The physicist Robbie said, who ordered that when he began to discover more particles?

希格斯粒子正是为填补这个空白而被预言的，而这恰恰是问题的关键所在。

So the Higgs was predicted to fill a gap, which was exactly what the question was about.

结果呢，它真的出现了。

And lo and behold, there it was.

这足以让你们所有人感到自豪。

This can make all y'all very proud of yourselves.

对吧？

Right?

因为这意味着

Because it means

是的。

Yeah.

你们不仅理解了我们已经发现的物理规律，还理解了那些尚未被发现的物理现象。

You you you understand not only the physics that we've discovered, but the physics awaiting to be discovered.

这给了你们很强的信心。

That gives you pretty good confidence

这才是最棒的。

That's the best.