策略与博弈论

欢迎来到《星谈》，这是宇宙中科学与流行文化碰撞的地方。《星谈》现在开始。这里是《星谈》体育特辑，今天的主题是策略与博弈论。哦，绝对会爱上这个话题。

Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk sports edition, and today's topic is gambits and game theories. Oh. Gotta gotta love it.

我请到了谁呢？当然是我那无所畏惧的搭档，查克·奈斯。嘿，查克。嘿，尼尔。好的。

And who do I have? Of course, my intrepid cohost, Chuck Nice, Chuck. Hey. Hey, Neil. Alright.

非常好。你不是这个团队里的职业运动员。这方面我得找加里·奥莱利。没错，加里。

Very good. You are not the professional athlete in this group. I would go to Gary O'Reilly for that. That's right. Gary.

怎么了，兄弟？

What's up, bro?

嗨，尼尔。

Hi, Neil.

你们好吗？今天我们几个人都没有特别专业的竞技背景。我们要讨论博弈论，探讨二十一世纪的国际象棋，那里有很多值得探讨的内容。它算运动吗？

How you doing? Now, none of us have any particular competitive expertise in the stuff we're gonna talk about today. We're gonna talk about game theory. We're gonna talk about twenty first century chess, and there's a lot going on there. Is it a sport?

我们该把它纳入奥运会吗？还是电脑正在击败我们？到底怎么回事？所以我们得请一位专家来。

Do we bring it into the Olympics? Or are computers beating us? What's going on? So I hey. We had to bring in an expert.

对吧？所以我们请来了乔纳森·谢弗博士。乔纳森，欢迎来到《星谈》。

Okay? And so we're bringing in doctor Jonathan Schaeffer. Jonathan, welcome to StarTalk.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

好的。你是加拿大阿尔伯塔大学计算机科学系的教授。之前你曾担任系主任，但很快就明智地卸任了。所以现在你终于能真正做些研究了，对吧？

Alright. You're a professor in the computers computing science department at the University of Alberta, Canada. Formerly, you were dean there, but you quickly stepped down, I think, wisely. So now you can actually get some work done. Right?

是这样运作的吗？

Is this how that works?

是的。

Yep.

好的。根据记录，你创建了一个名为Chinook的计算机程序。这是二十五年前的事了，它成为了美国跳棋的世界冠军？

Alright. And we have on record here that you created a computer program called Chinook. This is now twenty five years ago that became the world champion of American checkers?

没错。

That's correct.

好的，好的。跳棋，你知道的，但那不是国际象棋。对吧？所以

Okay. Okay. Now checkers, you know, but that's not chess. Right? So

正如跳棋经常因为这种比较而被贬低。是的。是的。是的。那个

As as as Checkers is often disparaged by that comparison. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the

那家伙在玩跳棋，不是国际象棋。

That that guy's playing Checkers, not chess.

我就是这个意思。没错。

I'm just that's right. That's right.

没错。我只是说说而已。

That's right. I'm just I'm just saying.

但我特别想说的是，你还参与了Polaris程序的开发。我说对了吗？顺便说一句，这名字很棒。如何赢得房间里每位玩德州扑克的天文学家的好感。

But what what I'd like to especially is you're also behind the program Polaris. Did I get that right? Great name, by the way. How to get in good with every astronomer in the room that plays the Texas Hold'em poker.

没错。

That's right.

所以对我来说，这这更引人入胜了。但告诉我，你在人工智能和游戏解题方面参与过什么样的工作？

So for me, that's that's even more intriguing. But tell me, what what kind of work have you been involved in with AI and and game solving?

嗯，当然，我在从事AI研究，年轻时我曾想成为国际象棋世界冠军。鲍比·菲舍尔是我年少时的偶像。但天赋不足和一个有趣的女孩让我偏离了轨道，于是我转向AI来实现梦想。如果我自己当不了世界冠军，就让我的电脑程序成为世界冠军。这促使我开发了国际跳棋、扑克等多种游戏的世界冠军级程序。

Well, of course, I'm doing research in AI, and when I was young I wanted to be the world chess champion. I mean, Bobby Fischer was my role model when I was young. But a lack of talent and an interesting girl sort of got in the way, and so I turned to AI to realize my dreams. If I couldn't be world champion, I'm gonna let my computer program be the world champion. So that led to building world champion caliber programs and checkers, and poker, and a variety of other games.

所以我开始这类项目时会非常争强好胜。我们要赢，我不会让人类的自尊心阻碍打造超强游戏程序的目标。

And so I'm a very competitive person when I start one of these projects. We wanna win, and I don't let human egos get in the way of trying to build superhuman game playing programs.

对。所以你的意思是，尽管受到鲍比·菲舍尔启发，但你的棋艺没达到预期水平。于是你开始编写不仅能超越自己、还能击败他的程序。

Right. So what you're saying is you weren't you weren't as good in chess as you wanted to be, as inspired as you were by Bobby Fischer. So you started writing software and code that could beat not only you his ass.

能打败你自己？基本上他就是这么想的，如果我不能成为最棒的，我就创造最棒的东西。这样间接地，我就是最棒的。哦，不。

Could kick your own ass? Basically, that's why he was like, you know, if I can't be the best, I'm gonna make the thing that's gonna be the best. And then by proxy, I am the best. Oh, no.

我明白了。即使他无法成为最棒的 即使

I see. Even if he can't be the best Even if

我我是天才。我是天才。我是天才。对吧。

I I am a genius. I'm a genius. I am a genius. Right.

所以这就像电影情节对吧？你说，哦，想打败我？先过了我的机器人这关。懂吗？

So in this is in movies. Right? You're saying, oh, you wanna kick my ass away? First, have to kick my robot's ass. Okay?

是啊。得准备些

Yeah. Gotta get some

事情就是这样运作的。

That's how this works.

但是，你知道，

But, you know,

查克查克，说到你的观点，我人生中最痛苦的时刻之一就是开发我的国际象棋程序时，我是一名国际象棋大师，当它最终击败我的那天，我几乎既想哭又因喜悦而欢呼。是的。

Chuck Chuck, to your point, one of the most traumatic moments in my life was working on my chess program, and I'm a chess master, and the day that it finally beat me, I almost cried and cheered with delight. Yeah.

是啊。你知道吗？我我我懂那种感受。每次我和我14岁的儿子争论输了时，都有同样的感觉。

Yeah. And say, you know what? I I I know that feeling. I have it every time I have an argument with my 14 year old son and lose.

有点像达斯·维达和天行者的那一刻。

Sort of Darth Vader Skywalker moment.

对。但它

Yeah. But it

也可能非常皮格马利翁式。对吧？就像你的造物。你爱上你的程序了吗？

could also be it's very sort of Pygmalion. Right? It's like your creation. You fall did you fall in love with your program?

不予置评。不。你说得对。

No comment. No. That's right.

够了。那是你在开发的另一个AI程序。好吧。

That's enough. That's a different AI program you're working on. Yeah. Alright.

那是机器人女友。就是那位让他对其他事物产生兴趣的年轻女士。

That's the robot girlfriend. That was the young lady that got him interested in something else.

你刚刚向那位国际象棋大师提了那个问题，也见识了他的棋路，对吧？就是和Right对弈的那次。

You just asked the chess master that question, and you saw his moves there, didn't you? Just with Right.

几年前，我们曾邀请美国国际象棋特级大师莫里斯·阿什利来访。记不清他是恰好来城里还是我们特意请来的——总之这位特级大师来到了我办公室。我向他请教了关于鲍比·菲舍尔的问题：让机器学会下棋，是要模仿菲舍尔的学习方式还是遵循其他规则？让我们听听他当时怎么说的。

So a couple years back, we I had Maurice Ashley, chess grandmaster, American grandmaster, come to he visited. I forgot I I whether he was in town or we nabbed him or what I forgot how we got him into my office. But a a chess grandmaster, and I I asked him about Bobby Fischer and what it is to get a machine to learn how to play chess. Do you learn the way Bobby Fisher learned or the other rules? Let's find out what he said.

特级大师莫里斯·阿什利认为：菲舍尔的创新才华正源于无人指导。他全靠自己摸索，因此走出了与众不同的道路。若接受正规训练，他的棋路就会被人熟知。但自学成才者往往让人无从揣测。

Grandmaster Maurice Ashley. Was Fisher innovatively brilliant Because nobody trained him. And he had to figure it all out on his own, so therefore he came out of someplace else. Because had he been formally trained, everyone would know he learned these moves that way and that. If you come from somewhere else, if you're self taught, nobody knows how to play you.

这其中是否

Is there some of that

有联系？

in there?

我认为

I think

确实存在这种关联。菲舍尔是个独特的天才，除了天赋异禀，他最大的优势是极致勤奋。他研习所有棋谱，甚至学习俄语以便阅读原版资料。

there is some of that in there. Fischer was his own freak. I mean, he had his own genius. And his main forte in addition to being immensely gifted was his work ethic. He studied everything, looked at everything, looked at other languages so that he could read stuff in Russian.

他拥有惊人的信息消化能力，更会在吸收基础上加入个人创新。要知道，当时整个苏联棋院都视他为眼中钉，誓要击垮这个横空出世的新星。

He he was incredibly gifted at just consuming information. And then him being himself, he would On top of that. He would just add his own twist to it. And the you have to realize, the whole Soviet school was pitted against him. They wanted to destroy this upstart.

早在他14到16岁时，苏联人就意识到——这个在棋坛崭露头角的少年不容小觑。在棋盘面前，国籍、种族、性别都不重要。当一个人展现出棋力时，棋手们立刻就能判断：这家伙会把你

And they knew it from when he was 14, 15, 16 years old. I mean, this was this was a star in the firmament that spotted and said, that kid can play. And, you know, it doesn't take much. I don't care what country you're from or race you're from, gender, you name it. You start playing chess moves, and chess players are like, this person will kick your

杀得片甲不留。

ass.

当心。他们从他年轻时就知道，他决心要击败他们，因为他是个完美主义者，渴望与最强者对弈。那种驱动力、那股能量无人能及，无可匹敌。也许我们可以说卡斯帕罗夫有那种专注力，但国际象棋史上鲜有棋手拥有那种纯粹想要彻底击溃你的炽热欲望。而菲舍尔正是如此。

Watch out. And they knew it from when he was young, and he was bent on taking them down because he was he was a perfectionist, and he wanted to play against the best. So that drive, that energy was unmatched, was unparalleled. Maybe Kasparov, we could argue, that kind of focus, but there's very few players in the history of chess that had that burning desire to simply eviscerate you. And that was Fischer.

而且他亲口说过。他就是热爱那种感觉

And and he said it. He just he loves that

战斗宣言。

Battle terms.

那是...那就是我要说的...

That's that was I will that's the

碾压并摧毁你。我要将你彻底击溃。

Crush and destroy you. I will eviscerate you.

这简直...这简直...

That is that is just

持续在棋盘上。

keeps on a board.

噢，不。噢，不。我们都知道，

Oh, no. Oh, no. We know,

噢，这一切。

Oh, with this all this.

我得走了。

I gotta go.

什么？继续说吧。

What? Go on.

我们谈论的是国际象棋。棋如人生，人生如棋。这可是费舍尔的直接引述。

This is chess we're talking about. Chess is chess is life. That's that's a direct quote from Fisher.

那么，乔纳森，如果鲍比·费舍尔算是一种完美的学习机器，那么在当今现代AI模型中，它们是否也像鲍比·费舍尔那样是完美的学习机器？他是某种系统、某种可遵循的方法和操作，还是AI已经找到了更聪明的成功途径？

So so, Jonathan, if if Bobby Fisher was sort of a perfect learning machine, today, in modern sort of a a AI models, are they perfect learning machines like Bobby Fisher? Is is he some some system, some method and operation to follow, or has AI found even more clever pathways to success?

人类与计算机有本质区别，他们的运作方式截然不同。鲍比·费舍尔绝对非凡，他在巅峰时期所取得的成就令人难以置信。但经验告诉我们，如果将人类知识输入AI，它们的表现反而不如让它们自主学习。看看

Well, humans are fundamentally different than computers, and they do things very differently. Bobby Fischer was absolutely remarkable. What he did in the span of time that he was on the top of his game is incredible. But what we learned from experience is that if you feed human knowledge into AIs, they don't play as well as if they can learn on their own. Take a look at

哇，这话真冷酷。

Damn, that's cold.

我本来想说这完全合理

I That's just not was gonna say this makes perfect sense

不过某种程度上确实如此。以AlphaZero国际象棋程序为例，它最初只掌握游戏规则，然后通过自我对弈——虽然过程孤独，但经过数百万次对局后，它达到了超人类水平。更妙的是，它的下棋方式与人类迥异，反而能让我们从中学习。这些AI最可贵的是没有自我意识，

though. But it does in a way, and if you take a look at the AlphaZero chess program, it starts off with just the rules of the game, and then it plays against itself. It's a very lonely experience, but it plays against itself millions of times, and it becomes superhuman. And not only does it superhuman, it plays chess in a way that is so different than humans do that we can actually learn from these AIs. The nice thing about these AIs though is that they don't have an ego.

击败你时不会冷嘲热讽。而且，这完全是

They're not gonna make a snide remark when they they beat you. And, well, it's a completely

不同且更困难的

different and harder than

你在做的事。不过编程方面，乔纳森，你完全可以给AI编程让它说风凉话。

you're do. Programming though. By the way, Jonathan, you can program the AI to make snide remarks.

那不是很搞笑吗？

Wouldn't that be funny?

实际上，在比赛中互相嘲讽。

Actually And to and to trash talk during the game.

其实在我的第一个国际象棋程序里，我就这么做了，因为，嗯，在AI研究者的表象之下也藏着好胜心。

Actually, in my first chess program, that's exactly what I did because, well, there's a competitive spirit behind the facade of an AI researcher.

天啊，这太酷了。你为什么不保留这个功能？我超想给某人用，你知道这些象棋程序现在超级火。

Oh, man. That's so cool. Oh, why didn't you leave that in there? I want so badly to give somebody because, you know, these chess programs are immensely popular right now. Yeah.

网上有些免费版本可以玩初级模式，我猜这就是他们吸引用户的手段。先让你免费玩初级版，等你上瘾了再升级。但如果程序能说'你就这点本事？'之类的话就太棒了。

And, you know, they have some of the free versions online where you can get the beginner versions, and I guess that's how they suck you in. They give you the beginner version for free, and then you play that, and then you move up. But it would be so great just to have that program saying things like, that's all you got?

或者说'哦，不会吧'

Or Oh, no.

查克，怎么

Chuck, how

你居然这样？得用施瓦辛格终结者的声音才对。

are you that? You gotta give him the Schwarzenegger Terminator voice.

噢，对吧？所以现在要

Oh. Right? So now now

提升游戏体验，设计特色语音，加入某些电影角色台词，这样嘲讽才够劲。

you gotta up the game and and sort of characterize the voice and have certain movie characters that come in there and just then you can trash.

哇哦。皇后到篮球四，你要输了。你要输了。你知道是谁

Oh, wow. Queen to Basketball four, you're going down. You're going down. You know who

接下来想对付谁，对吧？

you wanna do next, don't you?

那么乔纳森，你说它能进行数百万局对弈。它和自己对弈一百万局需要多久？

So, Jonathan, you said it plays millions of games. How quickly can it play a million games against itself?

非常快。因为这些计算机以光速运转。人脑虽然惊人，但速度极其缓慢。鲍比·菲舍尔下棋时每秒大约分析两个棋局，这对人类很快，但对计算机来说太慢了。看看深蓝。

Very quickly. And the reason is because these computers are operating at the speed of light. You know, the human brain is amazing, but it's incredibly slow. When Bobby Fischer plays chess, he's analyzing roughly two chess positions per second, which is fast for humans, but slow by computers. Take a look at Deep Blue.

我们都知道深蓝。这个1997年开发的国际象棋程序击败了

We all know who Deep Blue is. Chess program built in 1997, which defeated

IBM开发的？

By IBM?

IBM的深蓝

IBM's Deep

它的去向。

where it goes.

1997年的技术，那是二十三年前了。那个程序每秒能分析2亿个棋局，而加里·卡斯帕罗夫只能分析两个。知道最惊人的是什么吗？媒体总是搞错重点。人们听到计算机比人类强时会震惊。

1997 technology, that's twenty three years ago. That program was looking at 200,000,000 chest positions per second compared to Gary Kasparov's two. You know what's amazing? The media doesn't get it right. People are stunned when they say, oh, computers are better than humans.

而我认为，这算不上多精彩的技术故事。真正有趣的是人类竟能抵挡计算机技术冲击这么久。因为从这些数字来看，计算机具有压倒性的速度优势。

And I say, well, that's not such an interesting technology story. What's much more interesting is that the humans withstood the technological onslaught of computers for as long as they did. Because when you look at those numbers, the computers have an enormous speed advantage.

等等，那么电脑是否更优秀呢...好吧让我理清思路。电脑比我们强是因为它们比我们快吗？

Well, wait. So so computers are better well, what what okay. Let me let me slice it. Let me thread a needle here. Are computers better than us because they're faster than us?

它们比我们强是因为更聪明吗？如果只是速度快，那当然快。我自己可算不出八位数的平方根，交给该死的电脑就行。

Are they better than us because they are more clever? Because if they're simply faster, of course, they're faster. Alright? I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna find the square root of a an eight digit number on my own. Give it to the damn computer.

所以你能告诉我AI的思维路径和人类完全不同吗？

Alright? So so can you tell me that the AI is coming from a whole other place in where it's going?

AI和人类棋手都有两个要素：搜索与知识。人类搜索极慢，每次只能评估两个棋局，电脑却能快上百万倍，这是巨大优势。

So the AI is two things or as are human chess players. There's search and knowledge. And humans do search very slowly. They only look at two positions at a time. Computers can go millions of times faster, and that's a huge advantage.

人类用知识弥补搜索不足。加里·卡斯帕罗夫能讲述精妙的棋理，我的AI可能做不到。所以

Humans make up for the search by knowledge. Gary Kasparov can tell you amazing things about chess. My AIs, maybe not so much. So

而且那一百万步里大部分都是臭棋，专业棋手根本不会考虑。对吧。

Plus, of those million moves are not interesting, and an expert chess player would never involve. Right.

绝大多数走法都是无效的，会立刻被排除。是的，

There's a majority of the moves, an overwhelming majority of the moves that are immaterial. They're ruled out right away. Yeah,

但如果你开发的AI拥有速度优势，遍历所有走法零成本，虽然99%都是烂棋，但不全看就可能错过真正的好招。

but if you're building an AI that's got all these speed advantages, costs nothing to look at all these moves, and yeah, 99% of them are bad, but if you don't look at all of them you might miss something really good.

当讨论模式识别和机器学习时，与人类拥有的真实智能相比——本质相同但实现方式不同。在象棋程序中，可曾有过电脑提出创新走法让人惊叹的情况？

When you talk about pattern recognition and machine learning as opposed to actual intelligence that human beings possess, which is an actual the same type of thing, but executed differently. In a chess program, has there ever been the computer that has come up with the innovation. So it's wow, look at that.

从来没有

Nobody's ever

想到这一点。

thought of that.

乔纳森就是这么说的。他说由于探索了所有参数空间，他们玩游戏的方式完全不同了。

That's what Jonathan said. He said they play the game completely differently as a result of having explored all the parameter space.

而且他们发现了所有这些人类从未想过要关注、或者坦白说被人类忽略的惊人事物。所以我们

And they find all these amazing things that humans never even thought of looking at, or quite frankly humans overlooked. So we

会犯错。如果我们拥有这种强大且高速的人工智能，它能否自行推导出类似纳什均衡的理论？还是说它只会以特定方式输出结果，而无法创造出能推广到生活各个领域的此类理论？

make mistakes. If if we've got this powerful speed freak of AI, could it then go away and bring together or bring forward something like Nash's equilibrium? Or is it just going to deliver in a certain way but not create things like that that will allow to roll out into all sorts of different areas of life?

等等。什么是纳什均衡？

Wait. What's Nash's equilibrium?

查克，我们非得每件事都给你解释吗？

Do Chuck, do we have to explain everything to you?

没错。完全正确。这就是我在这儿的原因。正是我来这儿的目的。

Yeah. Absolutely. That's why I'm here. And me. Exactly why I'm here.

好让你们给我解释一切。

So you guys can explain everything to me.

好吧。那么更多关于

Alright. So so more what

纳什均衡是什么？

is Nash equilibrium?

好的，等一下。更广泛地说，博弈论扮演着什么角色？以及你何时、为何甚至会在其中发现纳什均衡。

Alright. Hold up. More broadly, what role does game theory play? And and which is how and when and why you might even find a a Nash equilibrium in the middle of it.

有一种博弈类型叫做完全信息博弈，比如国际象棋和跳棋。在游戏的每个节点，你都清楚当前局势——知道棋子位置、轮到谁行动，拥有完整信息。另一种是不完全信息博弈。

So there's one type of game, it's called the perfect information game. It's like chess and checkers. At every point in the game you know exactly what's going on. You know where the pieces are, you know whose turn it is, you have complete information. There's another kind of game called imperfect information.

这类博弈中部分信息是隐藏的，就像扑克游戏：你知道自己的牌，但不知道对手的牌。约翰·纳什提出了...

That's where some of the information is hidden. That's like a game like poker where you know your cards, but you don't know your opponent's cards. John Nash came

哦对了，这还包括桥牌——你和搭档一起玩，却不知道对方的牌。不知道对方的牌。

up Oh, by the way, that would include even bridge where you're playing with someone, but you don't know their cards. Know their cards.

嗯。

Mhmm.

尽管你们是同一阵营。

Even though you're on the same side.

对，明白了。

Right. Okay.

没错。我们专注讨论扑克吧，因为...确实。更多人理解扑克的核心概念是虚张声势，这是扑克的关键策略。纳什提出的卓越见解是：在这些不完全信息博弈中，存在一个所有玩家都能遵循的策略组合，使得无人能通过单方面改变策略获利。

Right. Let let's stick to poker because I think Sure. More people understand that the the real concept of poker, is a fundamental concept, which is bluffing, which is a really important concept in poker. And what Nash came up with was this brilliant idea that in these imperfect information games, you can get to a point where everybody has a strategy they can follow and everybody breaks even. And if you deviate from that strategy, you're going to lose.

这个纳什均衡非常反直觉，约翰·纳什因此获得了诺贝尔奖。

And so this Nash equilibrium is something that is quite surprising. John Nash got the Nobel Prize for it.

经济学奖。

In economics.

在经济学领域。没错。许多听众可能通过电影《美丽心灵》认识了约翰·纳什，这部精彩影片详细讲述了他时而悲剧性的人生。不过你提到的纳什均衡很有意思——人们认为扑克是欺骗与虚张声势的游戏，确实如此。但本质上，这只是人类的概念。

In economics. That's right. And many of your listeners may recognize John Nash from the amazing movie called A Beautiful Mind, which details his at times tragic life. What's interesting though about this Nash equilibrium, since you bring it up, is that people think of poker as being a game of deception and bluffing, and it is. But the reality is that that's a human concept.

还记得我们讨论国际象棋时说过，AI的下法截然不同，它们下棋方式近乎外星生物。但在扑克领域，我的扑克程序根本不懂虚张声势或欺骗。事实证明这些都蕴含在数学中——当你将博弈论的数学领域、纳什均衡等概念编入程序时，虚张声势和欺骗会自然涌现。最终结果就是，就像国际象棋一样，你能开发出击败所有人类的扑克程序。

And the AIs, remember when we talked about chess, they play very differently. They play almost alien like in terms of how they play chess. But when it comes to poker, my poker programs have no knowledge of bluffing or deception. It turns out that it all falls out in the mathematics, and so when you take the mathematical area of game theory, the Nash's equilibrium, and you use these concepts in your program, you get bluffing and deception for free, and the net result is you get poker playing programs that can, just like in chess, can beat all humans.

所以不需要教它们识别微表情或肢体语言？

So you don't need to teach them how to read a tell or facial micro expression?

听着，因为你始终在玩概率游戏。你在进行数学计算。这些根本不重要——如果我确定你只有4%概率持有特定牌型，我何必在意你的表情？我会针对这4%下注，因为我有6%胜率。

I mean, listen, because you're playing the percentages at all times. You're playing the math. It doesn't make a difference. Why do I care what your face looks like if I know that you have a 4% probability of having a particular hand? I'm gonna bet that 4% because I have 6% chance of winning.

不，不是这样。关键是你有4%概率拿到能击败我的牌型。这正是我要说的。

No. No. That's not it. It's whether there's a 4% chance you have the hand that will beat your hand. But that's what I'm saying.

呃，不是...我是希望你持有那个我想要的...

I mean, of well, no. No. I want you to have the pan that I will

会输的牌，Neil。我只是在精确表述。好的，那我等着。

lose, Neil. I'm just clarifying for precision here. Yeah. Okay. So I wait.

等等，我对这个太着迷了。你是说——人们总想着通过戴墨镜隐藏眼神情绪来防止被读牌，但AI对战AI时，根本不需要解读肢体语言就会自动虚张声势？

Wait. Wait. I'm I'm very fascinated by this. What you're saying is this notion that I'm gonna read you know, I'm gonna they're gonna wear dark sunglasses so you can't see their eyes, so they can't see their emotions, so they can't see this. You're saying that AI playing AI will bluff without having to read anybody's body language.

完全正确。

That's correct.

哇，这太酷了。

Yeah. That's so cool.

这真是太棒了。他们不仅会虚张声势，

That's a that's amazing. Not only will they bluff,

而且会做得很好。

they'll do it well.

最酷的是，如果你观看世界扑克锦标赛，他们会有一个AI与正在进行的游戏一起玩

The cool thing is if you watch the world championships of poker, they have an AI playing along with the game that's being played

是的。

Yeah.

这样你实际上可以看到每一手牌的数学概率和百分比，这样你就可以看到真实的人类玩家之间的对决水平如何，与AI的衡量标准相比。我认为这是我看的唯一原因。

So that you can actually see all of the mathematical probabilities and percentages of each hand so that you can see how well the actual human players are playing against one another as opposed to the measure of an And I think it makes it it's the only reason I watch.

嗯。所以，所以，乔纳森，我们得结束这个环节了，但让我们以一个问题来结束

Cha. So so so, Jonathan, we gotta bring this segment to a close, but just let's exit with I got one question

给你。我们得留住这家伙。这些东西太迷人了。

for you. Let's keep this guy. This is fascinating stuff.

他是我们的新好朋友。

He's our new best friend.

他是我们的新好朋友。对吧。或者你因为

He's our new best friend. Right. Or you because

你想赢一些扑克游戏。这就是你想做的。是的。

you wanna win some poker game. That's all you wanna do. Yeah.

你喜欢最好的。所以实际上，我我我想在扑克里扮演查克。

You like the best. So Actually, I I I'd like to play Chuck in poker.

我认为

I think

那里对我来说是个真正的机会。

there's a real opportunity there for me.

绝对地。我原以为那是...哦，该死。乔纳森？乔纳森？他可能他刚刚

Absolutely. I thought that's a oh, damn. Jonathan? Jonathan? That he might he just

他那就是个...那是个当场击败。

he that was just a that was a smackdown right there.

不完全是。因为让我告诉你，如果我的扑克脸不够好我会很生气的。你会输的。你会输的。

Not really. Because let me tell you something. I would be offended if my poker face wasn't You're gonna lose. You're gonna lose.

恐怕我只能使出我最好的阿诺德·施瓦辛格式的压制，

I'm afraid I will just have to use my best Arnold Schwarzenegger takedown and

让你认清自己的位置。

put you in your place.

那么你现在有没有在开发什么程序，为了将来击败某些东西，我们会...你会在新闻上出现吗？

So are are you working on any programs now to beat something in the future that we're gonna you're gonna show up in the news?

目前没有。我在研究一些与游戏相关的基础问题，但不是为了打造超人类的游戏程序。

Right now, no. I'm working on some fundamental problems to do with games, but not to build superhuman game playing programs.

好的。我希望的是，你知道，我们做游戏，整个游戏宇宙正在崛起，越来越受到大家的关注，尤其是我们的关注。

Okay. So what I'd like is, you know, we do games game the whole gaming universe is rising up in everyone's awareness, especially ours.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以如果我们能请你回来聊聊其他出现的游戏，那就太好了，你可以作为我们随时需要的专家顾问。

And so if we can bring you back to talk about other games that show up, that'd be great to have you as our sort of man at arm's reach for when we need expertise How on

你玩大富翁怎么样？我

are you at Monopoly? I'm

掷骰子特别在行。我练习了

really good at rolling the dice. I've practiced a

很多次。好吧。

lot. Alright.

好的。那么，乔纳森，很高兴你能来。我们肯定会找个借口请你再来，因为显然，你现在是我们最好的朋友了。

Alright. So so, Jonathan, it's been a delight to have you on. We will definitely find it an excuse to bring you back since you're apparently, you're our best friend now

就因为这个。

for this reason.

就这样吧。

There you go.

好的。乔纳森·沙福德，感谢你的加入。很愉快。我们还会再见的。这里是《星谈体育版》，策略与博弈论，稍后回来。

Alright. Jonathan Shafford, thanks for joining us. Pleasure. And we'll we'll be back. This is StarTalk sports edition, gambits and game theory when we return.

欢迎回来。这里是《星谈体育特辑》，策略与博弈论专场。本期我们将聚焦二十一世纪的国际象棋。你知道，象棋总让人联想到那些老派绅士在桌边对弈的画面，但我觉得最近这种情况正在改变。所以在这一环节，我想稍微拓宽下话题。

Back. We're StarTalk Sports Edition, gambits and game theory. And in this segment, we're gonna focus on chess in the twenty first century. You know, chess brings back all these images of, like, old crusty men playing at tables and things, And I think that that's been changing of late. And so I in this segment, I wanna sort of broaden this out.

不过在开始前，请允许我重新介绍我的搭档查克·奈斯。查克，查克，你穿的那件T恤上写的什么？哦...我好像有点印象...

But before we do so, let me reintroduce my co host, Chuck Nice. Chuck, Chuck, what's what's that shirt you're wearing? You got the Oh. I kinda recognize what

上面写着'科学即为真理，无论你信与不信'。

It says, science is true whether or not you believe in it.

我...我好像听过

I re I I've heard of

这句名言。

that quote.

其实你本人就印证了这句话，我当时

Well You you resemble that quote, I was

是啊。你

yes. You

反感对吧？不，这是件很酷的新款星谈T恤...

resent yeah. No. So this is a cool new StarTalk shirt that Okay.

我连一件都还没有呢。好吧。

I don't even have one yet. Okay.

不。是的。所以你拿到了

No. Yes. So You got

在那份早期名单上。

on the early list for that.

我做到了。好的。我收到了这个，是和疫苗一起收到的。所以我现在很好。哦。

I did. Okay. I I got this, and I got it along with the vaccine. So I'm just good now. Oh.

哦，他假装自己90岁，然后插队到一位老太太前面去了。

Oh, he pretended he was 90 years old and stepped ahead of some little old lady.

是啊。不。不过，是的，你们现在可以领取这些了。大家现在就可以订购这些了。看看这个。

Yeah. No. But, yeah, you you can pick these up now. You can order these now, people. Look at that.

而且真的很酷。

And it's really cool.

我是说我会放个链接

I mean I will put a link

在里面。

in it.

我还没看到呢。所以你们这是背着我搞的。非常酷。加里。

I hadn't I haven't seen it yet. So that's, y'all doing this behind my back. Very cool. Gary.

是的。

Yes.

有你真好，伙计。

Always good to have you, man.

谢谢，

Thank you,

我的朋友。好吧。我欣赏你的体育嗅觉。我们这儿没人下国际象棋，就算会下，可能也水平一般。

my friend. Okay. I love your sports sense. So here's what none of us play chess, or if we do, we're probably not good at it.

没错，确实如此。

No. Exactly.

我们知道。我们需要找个在这领域有真才实学的人。所以我们请来了15岁就赢得全美女子国际象棋锦标赛冠军的高手。哦，明白了吗？

We know. We needed somebody who had some street cred in this at all. So we've got somebody who won the girls nationals, US girls nationals at age 15. Oh. Okay?

好的。目前拥有国际棋联女子大师头衔。明白吗？这可是个正式称号。清楚了吧？

Alright. Currently ranked women's FIDE master. Okay? That's a title. Alright?

你还是Botez Live的主播——在Twitch上和妹妹安德莉亚一起直播。这位24岁的国际象棋选手兼网络红人，以犀利言辞著称的亚历山德拉·波泰兹。亚历山德拉，欢迎来到《星谈》。

And you're a host of she's host of Botez Live, alright, on Twitch alongside her kid sister, Andrea. And she's a 24 year old trash talking chess player and Internet influencer, Alexandria Botez. Alexandria, welcome to StarTalk.

非常感谢邀请，我超级兴奋。

Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited.

太棒了。我得先问些例行问题——比如，是什么让你对国际象棋产生兴趣的？让我们先把这些基本问题解决掉。

I excellent. Excellent. I gotta ask you the, like, the the perfunctory questions. Like, what got you interested in chess? Let's get these out of the way.

那就简单说说你与象棋结缘的经历吧。

So so give us a give us a short history of your interest in chess.

好的。在美国，象棋传统上被视为书呆子的游戏。但在东欧，这是全民运动。我父母来自罗马尼亚，那里有浓厚的象棋文化。实际上我六岁时，父亲就开始教我下棋了。

Yeah. So, traditionally, in The US, chess has been seen as a game for nerds. But in Eastern Europe, it's a game for everyone. And my parents came from Romania where there was a very heavy chess culture. So my dad actually started teaching me when I was six.

哦，好吧。所以这就像是，比如你带着孩子们出去，在后院和他们一起打球。

Oh, okay. So this is just that's like here, like, you go out with your kids and and play ball with them in

后院。对。

the backyard. Yeah.

然后他们让你坐在棋盘前。老兄，这太酷了。好吧。

Then they set you up in front of a chessboard. Man, that's badass. Okay.

没错。我是说，所有孩子都得经历这个。这就像一种成人礼。

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, all of the kids have to do it. It's just kind of a rite of passage.

等等。但你并没有拒绝它。所以不是每个人都会接受。那你有什么不同之处？

Wait. Wait. But but but you didn't reject it. So not everyone is gonna embrace it. So what's different about you?

想吃东西。不。她就像，哦，哦，查克。

Wanted to eat. No. She's like, oh, Oh, Chuck.

这反映了你的育儿技巧。

There's a window on your parenting skills.

我是说，他没错。不。实际上，我觉得这开始只是因为我超级好胜，这点遗传自我爸。他其实是想戏弄我妈，她不太会下棋。他说，我要教我六岁的女儿下棋，我打赌她两周内就能赢你。

I mean, he's not wrong. No. Actually, I think it started just because I was super competitive, which I got from my dad. So he actually wanted to troll my mom, who didn't play very much chess. And he said, I'm gonna teach my six year old daughter how to play, and I bet she can beat you in two weeks.

哦，这垃圾话真是戳中我了。

Oh, the trash talking is So hitting me

这是骨子里的。对。我

it's in the blood. Yeah. I

从小就是这样长大的。所以当我说某些话时，那不是我的错。这是从小就被灌输的。你明白吗？

grew up like this. So when I say things, it's not my fault. It's been ingrained since a young age. You know?

好吧。所以这就是你的洗礼，你的象棋洗礼。那么接下来

Alright. So alright. So you that's your baptism, your chest baptism. And what does

等等。两周后发生了什么？

wait. Two weeks later, what happened?

对。用开局技巧。想象终结者下棋时带着他记住的四步战术组合，然后我只是运气好，而我爸永远不会让我妈忘记这件事。所以

Yeah. With an opening trick. I mean, think of the Terminator coming into chess with, like, a four move tactical combination he remembered, and then I just got lucky, and my dad just will never let my mom forget. So

等等。所以你两周后就打败了你妈妈？

Wait. So you beat your mother after two weeks?

他在象棋对局中赢了。小心点。

He won the At chess at chess meal. Careful.

好吧。真是厉害。让我们看看下一段与莫里斯·阿什利的剪辑，因为我问过他们，要达到象棋巅峰需要什么？通常来说，实现这一目标需要哪些条件？一起来看看吧。

Okay. That's damn. Let's take a peek at my next clip with Maurice Ashley, because I asked them, what did it take to make it to the top of the game? Generally, what is required for this to happen? Let's check it out.

你已经充分证明了早期对象棋的热爱近乎痴迷。一个人能否仅通过学习而非完全痴迷就成为国际象棋特级大师？

You've made a strong case for being possessed in your early days in your love for chess. Can someone reach international grandmaster just simply by studying but not being completely possessed by it?

不。真的吗？不。你不可能成为国际

No. Really? No. You cannot become an international

所有国际象棋特级大师，他们都有点与众不同。

all the international grandmasters, there's something a little different about them.

确实如此。确实如此。想要成为国际象棋大师，我认为，你知道马尔科姆·格拉德威尔提到的一万小时定律远远不够。我的意思是，你必须具备

Absolutely. Absolutely. To to want to be a grandmaster of chess, I think, you know, Malcolm Gladwell talks about ten thousand hours. That's not enough. I mean, you have to have

你得下一万盘棋。对，忘掉一万小时吧。

You play 10,000 games. Yeah. Forget the ten thousand hours.

你必须拥有热情。你必须拥有意志，必须拥有决心，必须怀揣投入如此大量时间学习的渴望，将海量信息输入大脑。更重要的是，你需要有最厚的脸皮来忍受攀登巅峰途中反复遭受的羞辱。我见过许多天赋异禀的年轻棋手，人们都说他天赋过人。

You you have to have the passion. You have to have the will, you have to have the determination, you have to have the desire to study that much to put in that amount of data into your brain. And on top of it, you have to have the thickest skin to tolerate being humiliated over and over on your way to the top. I've seen many talented young players. Players where people say, he's got the gift.

他是下一个鲍比·菲舍尔。他们都...你能看出他们是出色的棋手。但当他们达到某个水平，开始遭遇挫败，无法像年少时那样轻松取胜时，他们突然感到些许不适，突然觉得这游戏不再那么有趣，突然不再那么热衷。而突破那个临界点的挣扎，扼杀了无数天才的成长。

He's the next Bobby Fischer. They all get all And you can see that they're excellent players. But the moment they get to a level where they start getting punched in the nose and they can't quite win as easily as they did back in the young days, they suddenly start to feel a little less comfortable, and suddenly the game's not as much fun, and suddenly they don't wanna do it as much. And that struggle to get past that critical point has stopped many a prodigy.

我觉得我儿子就经历了这个，因为他从小学到初中一直轻松击败对手

I think that happened to my son, because he was he beat people easily throughout elementary school, middle school

这很糟糕。

Bad thing to do.

直到高中。

Into high school.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他12岁开始能赢我，到14岁时我和他下30盘才能赢1盘。后来他参加高中联赛，甚至是全国性比赛，开始遇到同龄甚至更小的对手，这时才发现：哦，没那么容易了。不再那么...我认为成为顶尖选手真正需要的努力，在那些年里他从未真正体会。所以他可能就像你描述的那样成了牺牲品。

And he started beating me when he was 12, and by the time he was 14, I would take one game out of 30 from him. And then he goes into high school tournaments and now, like national tournaments, and then you start seeing people his age, even younger, and it's like, oh, it's not so easy anymore. It's not so, you know and I think the effort that it actually requires to be the best had eluded him all those previous years. And so I think he might have been a casualty in just the way you described.

是的。我不确定他是否如此，但很多年轻人都会这样。尤其是当一切来得太容易时。要知道，有些事情本不该太轻松。你是有天赋，但不应该...确实。

Yes. I don't know that that's what happened to him, but that happens to a lot of young people. They especially when it comes easy. You know, that one of those things, things should not come too easily to you. You're gifted, but you shouldn't Yeah.

你不该想着‘哦，来吧，我要打败所有人’。嗯。因为这需要付出巨大努力。关键是，顶尖的每一位都是天赋异禀。

You shouldn't feel like, oh, come on. I'm gonna beat everyone. Mhmm. Because it takes so much work. And the thing is, everybody at the top is gifted.

无论其中哪位棋手，最后站在顶端的都是天赋惊人的存在。马格努斯·卡尔森是精英中的精英，但排在他后面的也都是怪物。他们全都必须拼命努力，极其刻苦才能保持那个水准——因为此刻中国可能就坐着个16岁少年，所有人都指着他说是下一个王者。

Every last one of them is tremendously gifted no matter which one of those players. Magnus Carlsen happens to be the best of the best of the best, but everyone after him is a freak. And they all have to work really hard, extremely hard to maintain that level because there's some kid who's 16 years old in China right now who everybody's pointing at and saying, he's the next one.

中国可有十几亿人口

And China's got a billion people

正叩响冠军之门，而你坐在巅峰心想：天啊，我得拼命保住这个头衔。我要保持顶尖，因为那个新秀一旦崛起，就有人要被取代了。

and knocking on the door, and you're sitting at the top like, man, I'm trying to hold on to this title. I'm trying to be one of the best because as soon as that player comes up, you're gonna somebody is gonna get replaced.

嗯。哇。那么亚历山德拉，你现在是古怪地着魔了吗？

Mhmm. Wow. So, Ale Alexandra, so are you weirdly obsessed, possessed?

听完这些你是不是彻底抑郁了？

And are you, like, thoroughly depressed now after that hearing all that?

我不是特级大师，只是大师。

I am not a grandmaster. I'm a master.

只是个大师。

Just a master.

只是个大师。

Just a master.

我们干嘛要...为什么我们要跟他说话？这段剪掉。各位我们为什么在这浪费时间？哎呀，不过是个大师罢了。

Why do why do we Why are we even talking to them? Off the show. Why are we wasting our time here, guys? Oops. It's just a master.

好吧。那么告诉我们，人们需要陷入何种程度的怪异执着痴迷，还是说这并非必要条件？

Alright. But so so tell us what level of weird preoccupying obsession has to descend upon people or does it?

这绝对是必须的。你必须全身心投入国际象棋。人生中有些时刻它会是你的首要任务。而最终成为职业棋手的处境比成为挣扎的艺术家更糟，我觉得这更糟糕。

It absolutely does. You have to live and breathe chess. There's moments in your life where it's your number one priority. And to end up being a professional chess player is worse than becoming a struggling artist. I just feel like it's worse.

实际上，我相信艺术家的处境也很艰难。但关键在于，除非你是世界前十的棋手，否则国际象棋赚不到多少钱，所以你纯粹是出于痴迷和为了成为最强而竞争才从事它。因此你必须有个非常坚定的下棋理由。

Actually, I'm sure artists also have it pretty bad. But the point is, there's not a lot of money in chess unless you're in the top 10 in the world, so you're only doing it because of your pure obsession and being competitive for the sake of being the best. So you have to have a very strong why to why you play.

哇。所以总结你刚才说的，你的意思是其他很多职业里，非常优秀的人能赚大钱。嗯。但在这里，金钱只属于极少数人，所以你不是被金钱驱动的。

Wow. So what so just to restate what you just said, you're saying in so many other professions, there's a lot of money awaiting people who are all really good at it. Mhmm. But here, the money is only awaiting the very few, so you got you're not driven by money.

没错。这是纯粹靠热情的运动。

Yeah. Exactly. It's a pure passion sport.

天啊。好吧。

Gee. Okay.

别别别...好吧。用一位即将卸任总统的话说，你究竟为什么要这么做？

Don't so so so okay. In in the words of a soon to be former president, why why would you do it?

我认为这正是关键问题，这也是改变我人生轨迹的转折点。因为当我赢得女子全国冠军后，德克萨斯大学给我提供了全额奖学金加入象棋队。

I actually think that's the question, and that was one thing that really changed my trajectory. Because when I won girls' nationals, I got offered a full ride to be on the chess team at University of Texas.

好吧。这倒是个理由。

Okay. That's a reason.

这确实是个好理由。

That that is a good reason.

那里面有个不错的点。好的。

That's a good in there. Okay.

那是个

That's a

很好的理由。

good reason.

那确实是个好理由，但这也意味着那将成为我的首要任务。而我意识到如果我想专注于国际象棋，那将是我唯一能做的事。对我而言，这并不构成一个足够吸引人的理由。我更热衷于为国际象棋创作优质内容，让普通人也能参与其中——我认为这既充满意义又鼓舞人心，这就是为什么我转向了内容创作的方向。

That that is a good reason, but it would also mean that that would be my number one priority. And I realized that if I wanted to do chess, that's all I could ever do. And for me, that wasn't a compelling why. I'm much more passionate about things like making really good content for chess and getting the average person into it, which I think is so beneficial and so inspiring that that's why I switched more to the content side of

所以你更愿意成为这项游戏、运动或事业（不管人们怎么称呼它）的推广大使。关于它是否算运动的问题我们稍后肯定会讨论，现在我不想就此插话。但推广工作是你的热情所在吗？

it. So you you see being more of an ambassador for the game, the sport, the endeavor, whatever anybody's gonna call it. We'll get to whether or not it's a sport, I'm sure, at some point. So I don't wanna I don't wanna be I don't wanna chime in right there. But is is the ambassadorship where your passion is?

我认为这才是关键——根据我们之前听莫里斯说的内容，要达到那种程度的投入，对任何人来说都是极高的门槛。很少有人能对任何事物保持那种级别的专注。

That's what you feel is because I think that that's, you know, based on what we were listening to with Maurice, I mean, you're talking about an extremely high litmus for anybody to to to pass in terms of that kind of dedication. There are very few people who have that kind of dedication to anything.

没错。完全正确。完全正确。就像爱迪生谈论自己有多努力工作那样。

So Right. That's right. That's right. That's right. If you look at Edison talking about how much he worked.

对。

Right.

对吧？没人会说'他天生就聪明'，那家伙是

Right? Yeah. No one is saying, oh, he's just naturally brilliant. That boy worked his

拼了命地工作。拼了命地工作。

ass off. Worked his ass off.

好的，等一下。那么，亚历山德拉，你的意思是说，你原本可能全部投入国际象棋的那部分精力，现在也分散到了——正如恰克所说——成为这项运动的大使，提升公众认知，以整体促进这项运动的健康发展。这是你的首要任务吗？

So Alright. Wait a So so, Alexandra, are you so what you're saying is some of your chess energy that might just be purely put into chess, you are also spreading into, as as as as Chuck said, becoming an ambassador for the sport, raising the awareness level just to increase the health of the sport in general. Is that priority?

这是我目前最大的优先事项。而且很酷。我必须做出这种转变，因为我知道痴迷于国际象棋是什么感觉，正是这种痴迷让我达到了现在的水平。但我也觉得，能够向那些原本可能永远不会对这项游戏感兴趣的人解释这些复杂的概念，是极其迷人的。

That is my my biggest priority right now. And Cool. I had to have that switch because I know what it's like to be obsessed with chess, and that's what got me to the level that I'm at right now. But I think it's also extremely fascinating to be able to explain these difficult concepts to people who maybe never would have been into the game otherwise.

完全如此。当然，帮助你的还有Netflix上《后翼弃兵》的巨大成功。我们大概在它上线两天内就抽时间看了。但所有的轶事证据都表明——从假期间棋盘销量的激增，到相关的讨论、会员数量以及总对局数的增长——它确实产生了实实在在的影响。我是说，你们两位。

At all. And and what's helping you, of course, is the the the the runaway success of The Queen's Gambit on Netflix. We we we made time for that sort maybe within two days of and it posted. But all anecdotal evidence suggests that I mean, from from the sales of of of chessboards over the holidays to the chatter that's going on and the membership and the number of total games played, that's had a real effect on things. I mean, the two of you.

对吧？

Right?

是的。《后翼弃兵》的成功确实渗透到了各类国际象棋赛事、国际象棋内容以及棋盘等器材中。看到这一切非常令人兴奋。

Yeah. I mean, the Queen's Gambit success has absolutely bled into all types of chess events and chess content and chess equipment like boards. So it's been super exciting to see.

等等，加里，你听到她用‘渗透’这个词了吗？这更像是...不是溢出或泛滥。不。

Wait. Wait. Gary, did you hear she used the word bled into that's very more like. It didn't spill, overflow. No.

是渗透。

You bled.

不。我们已经听莫里斯·阿什利谈论过‘掏空’了。好吧。有人觉得这简直是TNT炸药级别的比喻。

No. We've we've already heard Maurice Ashley talk about evisceration. Okay. Anyone thinks this is this is t n t n biscuits.

简单来说，我想卖更多棋盘。我们会‘渗透’进去的。

As simple as I wanna sell more chess boards. We'll bleed into it.

这挺...这挺...是的。

This is pretty this is pretty Yeah.

我是说，好吧。我们正在目睹一场暴行

I mean, alright. We we are looking at brutality

好的。以最不合理的形式。我不想让这件事就这么过去，除了我之外没人注意到。好了，继续吧，亚历山大。

Okay. In most the most unreasonable form. I didn't want that to go by without somebody other than me noticing. Okay. Keep going, Alexander.

好吧。你不会让我流自己的血。这不是某个月的语录之一吗？我是说，你得想想

Alright. You won't make me bleed my own blood. Isn't that one of the month quotes? I mean, you gotta think

这些超级狂热的国际象棋玩家。我小时候没人关心这个游戏。它很书呆子气。人们嘲笑它。而现在突然间，它成了Netflix上的头号热门。

of these super passionate chess players. Nobody ever cared about this game when I was growing up. It was nerdy. People made fun of it. And now all of a sudden, it's a number one hit on Netflix.

作为一个国际象棋爱好者，你一生中从未有过这样的时刻。所以我们都在尽力把握这个机会，非常兴奋地期待着Try

You never have a moment like this as a chess enthusiast in your entire life. So we're just all trying to make the most of it and are so excited to see Try

乘上这股浪潮。

to surf that.

就像这个游戏。是啊。

Like this game. Yeah.

是啊。而且我认为你这么做是对的。我认为你乘这股浪潮是对的，因为我听说帕尔切西紧随其后。你知道，一旦那玩意儿流行起来？就完蛋了。

Yeah. And I think I think you're right to do it. I think you're right to ride this wave because what I hear is Parcheesi is on your heels. You know, what's what's that catches on? Forget about it.

那部关于Park ZZ冠军的新Netflix节目。

That new Netflix show about the Park ZZ champion.

哦，天哪。我已经感到害怕了。

Oh, man. I'm intimidated already.

所以问题是，亚历山德拉，你审视自己的运动领域，作为一个20岁的年轻人，你通过数字社交媒体这一天然视角来看待它，

So the thing the thing is, Alexandra, you look at your sport and then being 20, you see it through your natural lens of digital, social media,

如何以21世纪人的方式。

how to twenty first century person.

对吧？她会看着它说，这东西需要电气化。事实上，我打算

Right? And she's going to look at it and say, this thing needs to be electrified. I'm gonna In fact,

让我们明确这一点，让我们明确这一点。好的。所以你24岁，快25岁了。

let let's establish this let's establish this clearly. Alright. So you're 24 going on '25.

其实我已经25岁了，但

I actually turned 25, but

选择三。好吧。这意味着如果你是个普通人，你对20世纪的记忆几乎为零。因为我们最早的记忆通常在四岁左右，如果你特别早熟，可能三岁。但基本上是在三到五岁之间。

the choice three. Okay. So what it means is you barely have a memory of the twentieth century if all if you are a normal human. Because our our earliest memories are when we're four, Typically, if you're really precocious, maybe three. But, basically, between three and five.

所以20世纪对你来说，完全是21世纪的产物。这对国际象棋有什么影响？我不想完全归功于Netflix剧集《后翼弃兵》，因为你就在那里。你拥有大量粉丝，你和妹妹一起追踪乐趣。

So the so the twentieth century is some is you are all made branded made in the twenty first century. So what is that doing to chess? Because I don't wanna entirely credit the Queen's Gambit, Netflix series for this because you're out there. You got a huge following. You you got p and you track the fun with you and your sister.

我看到了其中一些内容。你知道，光是看着那些混乱就很有趣。对吧？而且是有趣的混乱，因为总有明确目标。所以你不能告诉我你不是这个领域的参与者。

You know, I caught some of those. You know, that's just fun to just to watch the confusion. Right? And and it's fun confusion because there's always an objective there. So you I'm not you you can't tell me you're not a participant on this landscape.

是的。这让我改变了在国际象棋上的优先级。以前全是关于精确度，这是个完全信息博弈，你唯一要优化的就是最精确的走法。

Yeah. I mean, it's made me shift how I prioritize what we're doing with chess. Before, it was all about accuracy. It's a game of perfect information. All you're trying to optimize is for the most accurate play.

那是你的首要目标。但现在在网上玩快棋时，不仅关乎精确度，还要下那些在限定时间内难以计算的诡招。再加上观众的存在，首要目标就变成了要么有趣，要么有教育意义，或者如果你有天赋，两者兼得。

That's your number one goal. But now with playing online, when you're playing fast games, it's not just about accuracy. It's also about playing trickier things that are hard to calculate in a specific time. And then when you add an audience on top of that, the number one goal is making it either entertaining or educational, or if you're talented, both.

好的。让我们看看莫里斯实际上说了什么，因为我问过他关于二十一世纪的国际象棋。这个采访虽然只有几年前，但让我们听听他的见解。

Okay. Let's see what Maurice actually had to say because I asked him about twenty first century chess. And this interview is only a couple years old, but let's find out what he tells us.

我认为国际象棋确实与二十一世纪完美结合。现在它已成为一款大型在线游戏。每个人都上网下棋，全世界的人都可以随时登录这些网络象棋俱乐部、chess.com等优秀网站，与全球各地的玩家对弈。

I think that chess has definitely married well with the twenty first century. It's now a big online game. Everybody goes online and plays. Everybody all over the world, you can just get online and play in these Internet chess clubs and chess.com and all these great sites. You just go on and you play players from all over the world.

你说得对，面对面那种个人较量、棋盘前的人际互动确实有所缺失。但与此同时，这项运动也因国际化程度提高而得到增强。比如布鲁克林的孩子可以随时和南非、东京或澳大利亚的孩子在线对弈。

And I think that you're right. There is something that's lost in the face to face personal, mano a mano, and also just the interaction between people at a board. But at the same time, it also does something enhanced because the game has gotten much more international. And if I'm a I'm a kid in Brooklyn, I could get online and be playing some kid in South Africa or in Tokyo or in Australia just like that.

那怎么防止有人在网上作弊呢？毕竟看不到对方真人，只有个用户名。如果有人连接电脑程序来对弈怎么办？

What's to stop someone getting online? Because there's not a picture of you there. You're just this probably a name handle. What's to stop someone from attaching a computer to the other side and then you end up playing the computer?

但你

But you

无法辨别。完全没办法。唯一约束他们的就是诚信。如果缺乏诚信，那么

don't know. Absolutely nothing. Nothing. The only thing that stops them is their integrity. If there's a deficit of that, then

你就是在和电脑下棋了。我觉得显然有些人会

you're gonna be playing against a computer and that's it. I I think there I mean, clearly, there's some

这么做，但大多数人上网是为了娱乐。而且很快就能发现对手水平异常。毕竟大家主要是来玩的，真正作弊的人很少。

people who do that, but most people are online to have a good time. And you can pretty much very quickly see when someone's playing a little out of their league. And most people just wanna have fun, so very rarely do they cheat.

所以亚历山德拉，莫里斯没预见到的是——他在谈论二十一世纪如何利用电子技术和互联网时，没料到这项活动会变成观赏性体育项目，而这正是你们实现的。

So so, Alexandra, what Maurice is not imagining here because he's saying twenty first century, you're exploiting the electronics of of and the Internet and the web. What he's not imagining is turning that activity into a spectator sport, which is what you've done.

没错。就像当初没人预料游戏也能这样。看别人打游戏获得乐趣，这确实有点反直觉。

Right. I mean, nobody expected that for games either. It seemed a little bit counterintuitive for anybody to enjoy watching somebody else play a game.

玩电子游戏，

Play video games,

这很了不起。是啊。

which is huge. Yeah.

没错。仔细想想，这和体育比赛很相似。为什么你会选择观看体育比赛而不是亲自参与？因为你在欣赏那些在这个特定项目上最顶尖的人，这非常有趣。而且你还能从中学习更多。

Right. And when you think about it, it's kinda similar to sports. Why would you watch sports instead of just play it yourself? Because you're looking at the people who are the best at this particular game, and it's really entertaining. And you learn more from it.

你会受到启发。国际象棋现在在互联网上正经历类似的崛起，突然间人们觉得观看它既有趣又有教育意义。

You get inspired. And chess is now having a very similar uprising on the Internet where all of a sudden people think it's entertaining or educational to watch.

看，就是这样。你会模仿你的英雄，尼尔。你知道，作为一个看足球长大的小男孩，我想成为贝利。我想成为世界级巨星并模仿他们。

See, that's it. You do. You emulate your heroes, Neil. You know, as as a young boy growing up watching soccer, I wanted to be Pele. I wanted to be the the world's greats and and emulate them.

而且我认为

And I think

等等。你试过那个倒挂金钩射门吗？

Wait. Did you do the back the backwards bicycle kick into the goal?

试过。但我基本上每次都踢不到球。

Yeah. But I missed the ball pretty much every time.

你没踢到球。

You missed the ball.

你做出动作了。只是没踢到球而已。

You you did the move. You just missed the ball.

是啊。也许我并没有想象中那么天赋异禀。当我们听亚历山德拉讲话时，我满脑子想的都是——国际象棋或许正成为新的摇滚乐，但眼前这位会不会是新的主唱人选呢？

Yeah. And maybe I wasn't as naturally blessed as I imagined. All I all I look at when we when we listen to Alexandra is, you know, chess may be becoming the new rock and roll, but am I looking at the new lead singer here?

哇哦，这真是过奖了。你是在说尼尔吗？

Oh, wow. That's very flattering. Are you talking about Neil?

噢，没错没错。他确实需要我吹捧他。对。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He needs me to flatter him. Yeah.

很好。

Good.

说实话，这种想法本身就很奇怪。但确实，我已成为最知名的女性国际象棋人物之一，我认为任何运动与社交媒体结合时都是这样——既要擅长这项运动，又要精通内容传播和受众触达。嗯。

I mean, it it it's really weird to even think that. But, yeah, I mean, I've definitely become one of the most well known female chess figures, and I think that's what it usually goes like with the intersection of social media in any sport. Mhmm. It's the person who is good at that sport, but also very good at spreading content and learning how to reach a wide audience.

所以...莫里斯绝对没想过国际象棋在21世纪会以这种形式呈现。对吧？这很有趣。亚历山大，你可能孕育了...

So so and and that's what I don't think Maurice was imagining as a twenty first century manifestation of chess. So right. So so this this is interesting. So, Alexander, you could have birthed

一个

an

全新的国际象棋爱好者阶层，但你可能也惯坏了他们——因为他们以为这就是国际象棋的全部。等他们真正参加国际比赛，面对俄罗斯对手时还想着打嘴炮，这可不合规矩。

entire, an entire stratum of chess enthusiast where, well, you could be spoiling them because they think this is what chess is. And if they get really good and they go to the international contest and there's the Russian across the table, now they just wanna smack talk it and that you're not supposed to do that.

确实。但我更想知道普通棋手的真实诉求——任何人都可以参加线下锦标赛，因为系统会匹配水平相近的对手。而业余爱好者现在只需在线对弈就能享受乐趣。未来可能会出现这种情况：人们在网上下了无数棋局，却从未体验过一局超过两小时的实战，这简直...

That's true. But I actually wonder what the desires of the average person is because anyone can play in an over the board tournament, and they can enjoy it because, they're also gonna get matched with people who have a similar ranking to them. But for the hobbyist, now you can enjoy chess just by playing it online. So maybe it's gonna be a difference where people are playing the most chess ever online before they've even ever played a game that lasts over two hours, which is insane to

令人难以置信。

me. Wow.

哇。好吧。那只是不同而已。就是

Wow. Okay. That's just a difference. That's

仅仅是差异。与Schafer博士教授讨论策略和纳什均衡。而在这里，我在听一位棋艺大师讲解非常二十一世纪的策略。我想找人打嘴仗。实际上我打算在下棋时解说我的每一步，所以这也有教学的部分。

just a difference. Discussing strategies and Nash equilibrium with professor with doctor Schafer. And here, I'm listening to a chess master whose strategies are very much twenty first century. I wanna trash talk someone. I'm actually going to illustrate my moves as I play, so there's an educational part of it.

有时候，如果你玩闪电战，你会走复杂的棋步，迫使对方在短时间内计算。顺便说一句，这很邪恶，大家都该知道。我是这么想的，因为我不会下棋。但这同样是策略，Alexandra似乎正在将其运用到她自己的

There's a time, if you play Blitz, that you'll play complicated moves so as that person has to calculate in a short space of time. This is evil, by the way, just so as everyone knows. That's how I think about it because I can't play chess. But this is strategy all the same, and Alexandra seems to be working it to her own

她自己的优势上，这是肯定的。我们得休息一下。但回来后，我们会深入探讨她的玩法，因为Alexandra，我们把第三部分留作闲聊环节。对吧？所以我想了解你的战术是什么，它们有多成功，以及你妹妹，你的小妹妹在这其中扮演什么角色。

her own advantage most certainly. We gotta take a break. But when we come back, we'll get into her gameplay and just find out because, Alexandra, we saved the part three for just sort of shoot the shit. Right? So I just wanna get into sort of what your tactics are and and how successful are they, and what role you have your sister, your kid sister playing in in all of this.

所以我们要短暂休息一下。这里是《星谈体育版》，策略与博弈论。回来后继续。《星谈体育版》

So we're gonna take a quick break. This is StarTalk Sports Edition, Gambits and Game Theory. When you return. We're back. StarTalk sports edition.

我们正在讨论应用于国际象棋的策略与博弈论。我有Chuck。Chuck。嘿。嘿。

We're talking about gambits and game theory as applied to chess. And I got Chuck. Chuck. Hey. Hey.

一直在那儿。Gary。

Always there. Gary.

嘿，Neil。

Hey, Neil.

你帮我做这个，我们得请个至少懂点国际象棋的人，不像我们三个。所以我们直接找到了网络顶尖的Alexandra Bottes。Alexandra，欢迎来到《星谈》。这是我们的第三部分，我们即兴发挥，试图学点东西，自由联想。但为什么有一种特别的策略与你特别相关。

You're helping me do this, and we had to bring in someone who had at least some expertise in chess unlike the three of us. And so we went straight to the Internet top, Alexandra Bottes. Alexandra, welcome to StarTalk. This is our third segment where we're just try we just, unscripted, just try to, learn some stuff, free association. But what why is there there's a particular kind of gambit associated with you in particular.

那是什么？

What is that?