初创公司早期阶段的经验教训

我做过。

I've done it.

我们所有人，这里每个人都做过。

We've all, everyone here has done that.

但在早期融资时，你会犯一些错误，这些错误会像鱼叉一样迅速刺穿你的初创公司。

But there are some early stage mistakes that you can make when it comes to raising capital that are gonna shoot a harpoon into the side of your startup pretty quickly.

托比，你有什么经验？在早期阶段融资有哪些该做和不该做的事？

Toby, what experience have you had and what are some do's and don'ts about raising capital in early stages?

是的，老兄，我觉得我犯的错误比做对的还多。

Yeah, man, I've felt like I've made more mistakes than than not.

我个人成长了很多，也见过足够多他人的经历。

Personally, I've grown a lot and I've seen enough of others.

我认为，拥有经历过这些的人作为导师和周围的支持者，可能比任何其他事情都更重要，对吧？

I think this is probably where mentorship and experience having people around you that have done that is probably more important than anything, right?

因为投资者时间非常有限，注意力也很短，他们要看很多项目。

Because there is investors have very little time and they have short attention spans, and they look at a lot of deals.

所以，在进入之前，了解市场情况、什么是常态、他们希望你如何呈现信息，非常重要。除非你身边有最近刚经历过这些的人，或者十五年前做过的人，否则这两者根本不一样，对吧？

And so going in understanding kind of what's market, what's normal, how do they think you're supposed to present information, like going in unless you have someone who's kind of been there and done it and done it in a relatively near term, or someone who did this fifteen years ago, it's just not the same, right?

前者有点帮助，但完全无法跟过去三到五年内刚做过的人相比。

It's kind of helpful, but not anything like someone who'd done in the past three to five years.

而且，即使是今天，在新冠疫情期间，对吧？

And even in today and in COVID, right?

就在过去的六个月里，情况又变了。

So in the past six months, that's even changed again.

所以，有经历过融资、有经验的人在身边指导你，这一点非常关键。早期我去见投资人时，常常只有我一个人，从没想过要带上我的整个团队。

So having people alongside you that has raised, that have experience, that can coach you, like early on, I would go into these investors meeting and it would be just me and not think to bring the rest of my team.

我当时觉得，他们都很忙。

It's like, well, they're busy.

我希望他们专心把公司做起来。

I want them building the company.

我为什么要打扰他们呢？

Why why would I why would I bother them?

而且没有意识到投资者多么看重团队之间的互动。

And not realizing how important it was for the investors to see how the team interacted.

并不是我无法介绍公司。

And it wasn't that I couldn't present the company.

对吧？

Right?

他们看不到团队的其他成员。

They didn't get to see the rest of the team.

对吧？

Right?

所以我应该更早地带上我的团队。

So I should have brought my team along much earlier on.

你知道，投资者寻找的是那种极具韧性、积极主动、自信、谦逊且愿意接受指导的人。

You know, investors are looking for someone who's super tenacious and aggressive and confident and humble and coachable.

对吧？

Right?

这就是那种奇怪的‘是的，但是’：是的，你要非常有进取心、坚韧不拔、积极主动，同时也要有谦逊，敢于问出‘嘿，我不懂这里在做什么’这样的问题。

And that's kind of that weird yes and thing of like, yes, super aggressive and tenacious and aggressive and a go getter and humility to ask the question of, hey, I don't know what I'm doing here.

我对这个领域也不是很确定。

I'm not sure about this area.

所以在早期阶段，机会越早，投资就越具有关系性，对吧？他们更是在押注CEO；到了后期阶段，他们就会更多地关注财务数据和指标，比如流失率、销售模式和增长情况。

So being able to demonstrate that the earlier stage the opportunity, the more relational the investment, right, the more they're betting on the CEO, the later stage, the more they're getting into the financials and the metrics and kind of the the churn and you know, the the sales model and the the growth.

在早期阶段，真正重要的完全是CEO以及他周围的团队。

In early stage, it really is heavy, heavy, heavy, the the the CEO and the team around them.

我认为早期的CEO们太专注于推销公司，却忘了推销自己。

And I think early stage CEOs pitch the company too much and not let themselves pitch themselves.

所以，托比，我其实是你向EyeVerify融资时接触过的人之一，我拒绝了，我确实拒绝了。

And so, Toby so, Toby, I was actually one of the people you pitched EyeVerify to, and I passed and I passed.

我们来聊聊这件事。

Let's talk about that.

当时情况怎么样？

How did that go?

我也拒绝了。

And I passed.

对吧？

Right?

而且

And

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我很想多听听你早期为EyeVerify融资的故事，因为你知道，你当时想把一些知识产权推向市场。

And so I'd love to hear a little more of your story of the early days of raising for EyeVerify because, you know, you were trying to take some intellectual property and basically bring it to market.

但你并不完全清楚该如何使用它，谁会为此付费，以及如何实现盈利。

But you didn't necessarily know exactly how you would use it, who would pay for it, how you would monetize it.

这真的很难。

Like, that's really difficult.

对吧？

Right?

所以这就是为什么我仔细看了它。

And so that's why I'm look I looked at it.

我想，好吧，这真的很棒。

I'm like, okay, this is really cool.

如果你能想出怎么利用它，它可能会非常成功，否则你永远也搞不清楚该怎么用它。

And if you can figure out to do something with this, it could be really big, or you're never gonna figure out what to do with it.

所以法院

And so the court

在你回答之前，我有个问题，马特。

Before you answer, I have a question, Matt.

你为什么放弃了？

Why did you pass?

因为我真的不知道如何实现盈利的路径。

Because I didn't I just didn't know I didn't know what the path to monetization was.

你怎么能把这项技术转化成实际的产品呢？

Like, how are you gonna take the technology and make something out of it?

所以我认为这花了好几年时间，这也是我想听的故事的一部分：你是怎么为这种新型创业项目融资的呢？

And so and I think it took several years, and that's part of the story I'd like to hear is, like, how was it raising money for that sort of, you know, new venture?

你一开始经历了一段很长的时期，但最终还是做出了点名堂。

And you had, like, a very long and then eventually, you were able to make something out of it.

所以我觉得这是一个很有趣的故事。

So I think it was an interesting story.

不。

No.

确实是。

It is.

而且是的。

And yeah.

所以当时有不少像马特这样的人，他们说：嘿。

So there were a number of folks like Matt that was like, hey.

所以有个有趣的故事。

And so a funny story.

当我第一次为EyeVerify筹集资金，进行首轮预种子轮融资时，我用了标准的演示文稿，在财务页面上留了空白。

When I first raised money, my first kind of a pre seed round for EyeVerify, I had, you know, the standard deck and on my financials page, had a blank.

我懂财务。

I know financials.

因为说实话，我不知道它会是什么样子，这毕竟是预种子轮。

Because like, I don't know what it's going to be like, this is a pre seed.

我不知道它会属于医疗健康领域。

This is I don't know whether it's going to be healthcare.

它可能是企业级市场，也可能是金融服务领域。

It could be enterprise, it could be financial services.

我们还太早，无法确定。

And we're too early to know.

对吧？

Right?

所以你说得对，这是一场关于愿景和痛点的押注。

And so you're right, it's a bet on vision and pain point.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果你相信智能手机上的密码是个痛点，而生物识别技术能够解决这个问题，那么这就是一个不错的投资。

So if you believe that passwords on smartphones are Pain and something like biometrics is going to solve that problem, then this is a good bet.

但我并不清楚具体的商业模式。

But I don't know the exact business model.

不确定它是SaaS模式。

Don't if it's a SaaS model.

我不知道它是不是授权模式。

I don't know if it's a licensing model.

因此，有不少人说，我觉得这很酷，但我没搞懂它的商业模式。

And so there was a bunch of folks that just said, hey, I think it's cool, but I don't get the business model.

我现在选择放弃。

I'm going to pass right now.

我完全理解，对吧？

And I totally get it, right?

所以并不是这样，你知道的，就连对马特，我也完全理解他的立场。

So it wasn't, you know, so even like with Matt, like I totally understood where he came, he was coming from.

所以我得找到一些足够相信我的人，让我能进入下一阶段，开始取得一些进展。

So I had to get people that would believe in me enough that would get me to the next stage where I could start getting some traction.

于是我很快学会了，这一点在早期阶段尤其明显，也许是个很好的例子：你越早期，就越需要有人愿意稍微相信一下你的梦想。

And so I quickly learned, again, early and that's maybe a great example, The earlier stage you are, you've got to get people that are going to a little bit believe in the dream.

他们在押注

They're betting

在我身上。

on you.

是的，他们在很大程度上押注在我身上。

Yeah, they're betting on me to a large degree.

他们确实如此。

They are.

因此他们必须了解我。

And therefore they have to get to know me.

我们得花点时间在一起。

We got to spend some time together.

你知道，我很幸运，之前我的公司已经取得过一次成功。

You know, I was fortunate that I'd already had one win with my previous company.

所以很多老投资者都见证过我某种程度上的成功。

So a lot of my old investors had seen me kind of, you know, be successful.

而且，2009年的时候，正值金融危机，对吧？

And again, in 2009, that was the financial crisis, right?

2008年的时候，世界彻底崩盘了，一切都乱了套。

So 2008 was when the world fell off its wheels, when the wheels came off.

所以我们卖掉了公司，我记得是2009年5月或6月，把钱返还给了投资者。

And so we sold, I think May or June 2009, returning money back to investors in 2009.

我的投资者们非常支持我。

My investors loved me.

因此，我确实从这段经历中获得了不少助力。

And so I definitely had some wind in my sails from that.

但第一轮融资非常艰难。

But it was hard the first round.

即使是第二轮，我们的进展也远没有达到我预期的程度。

And even the second round, we did not have nearly the traction that I wanted to have.

让我极度自信的是，我们交谈过的每一个客户都说，这确实是个问题。

What gave me just extreme confidence of not a single customer we talked to said, this wasn't a problem.

每个人都说，我们讨厌密码。

Everybody said we hate passwords.

我们想在手机上操作。

We wanna do on mobile.

我们知道未来会在手机上做更多事情。

We know we're gonna do a lot more stuff on mobile.

如果你能解决这个问题，我们一定会使用它。

And if you could figure this out, we would love to use it.

但他们并没有直接明了地说：‘你现在的用户体验太差了。’

But they didn't quite say this bluntly, today, your user experience sucks.

确实如此。

And it did.

太糟糕了。

It was terrible.

但同样，我们知道这是一个值得解决的问题，并且知道我们有机会以一种非常独特的方式解决它，这正是让我们能够完成第二轮融资的原因。

But again, we knew we had a problem that was worth solving, and we knew we had a chance to to solve it in a really unique way, which is what allowed us to raise the second round.

实际上，前种子轮和种子轮都非常艰难。

It's really the first the pre seed and the seed round were both really hard.

之后情况稍微好了一些，开始获得更多的用户增长，我们也逐渐积累了一些势头。

We got a little bit easier after that, started to get little more traction, we started to get some more momentum.

头两年超级艰难。

Those first two years were super hard.

我认为这正好引出了另一个常见的创业错误：不了解自己的盈利路径。

I think that's a perfect layup for another common startup mistake is not understanding your path to revenue.

而且，我经常和人们谈论这一点。

And, I mean, that's something that I talk to people a lot.

顺便说一下，我想告诉你，我非常尊重你拿出一份财务数据为空的融资演示文稿的做法。

By the way, I wanna tell you, I completely respect the fact that you threw out a pitch deck with blank financials.

我真的感谢你，感谢你这么做，因为这背后附带了一个解释，比如：‘嘿，我在努力搞清楚这件事。’

Like, I thank you, Like, thank you for, I mean, on behalf of everyone that because it but it came with an explanation like, Hey, look, I'm trying to figure this out.

对很多人来说，这听起来像是：‘你为什么要这么做？’

And I think to many people that sounds like, Oh, why would you ever do that?

这是因为但凡见过足够多初创公司路演的人，都知道预测数据等于错误。

It's because anybody that's seen enough startup pitches knows that projections equal wrong.

每当我听到‘预测’这个词，我就直接想到‘错误’。

Like when I hear the word projection, I just think wrong.

因为实际情况肯定会变，事情总是在变化。

It's because it's gonna be, and things change.

但你必须对一件事有一定理解：多久才能拿到一笔不是来自投资人的真金白银？

But one thing that you have to have some kind of understanding of is how long is it gonna take to put a dollar in the bank that isn't an investor dollar?

我知道我经常遇到一些早期公司，他们说：‘我们再过六个月就能占据10%的市场份额’，还说什么总潜在市场有三千万人之类的。

And I think that I run, well, I don't think, I know I run into a whole lot of early stage companies that, you know, they're well in six months, we'll have 10% of market share and they're like total addressable markets, like 30,000,000 people and, you know, stuff like that.

就像你提到的，第六个月时，如果你的用户体验还没彻底崩盘，或者你至少有了一个最小可行产品，或者事情开始有进展、能正常运行，那就算幸运了。

And like you mentioned, like, I mean, in month six, you're lucky if your user experience isn't a complete train wreck, or if you even have an MVP or if things learn or things even work.

我现在想从Watson说起，因为对于Stackify来说，你们有没有惊讶于拿到第一笔收入花了这么长时间？

You know, I'll actually start with Watson at this point, because, know, with Stackify, were you surprised at how long it took to get a dollar in the bank?

是的，绝对如此。

Yeah, absolutely.

我们花了好几年时间。

It took us a couple years.

最初的想法在过程中发生了转变，而且至今仍在不断调整。

And, you know, the original idea, you know, kind of pivoted along the way and continues to to maneuver around a little bit.

这比看起来难得多。

And it's way harder than it seems.

我的意思是，至少我们有一个更清晰的路径。

Mean, at least we I mean, we had a more clear path.

好吧，我们知道我们要做什么。

Like, okay, we know what we're we're gonna do.

确实有人在做这样的事情，而且人们愿意为此付费。

And there are people that do things like this, and people will pay for this.

但没错，这比看起来难多了。

But, yeah, it's way harder than it seems.

我的意思是，这条路上很多人最终都失败了。

I I mean, that's a that's a path that many die on.

你知道吗，托比，你对这个怎么看？

And you know, Toby, what's your take on that?

就是通往收入的路径吗？

Just kind of the path to revenue?

我的意思是，甚至是那些错误。

I mean, or even the mistakes.

因为就像我说的，嘿，我们六个月就能占据巨大的市场份额。

Because like I said, like, hey, we'll have this huge market share in six months.

但六个月后，人们根本不会知道你是谁。

I'm like in six months, people aren't gonna know who you are.

所以这是最有趣的一个。

So here's the really, really funny one.

我以前真的很糟糕。

I I used to be so terrible.

我会构建这些非常复杂的模型和大型电子表格，所有东西都连在一起，你在这里增加一个人力，它就会自动增加所有相关部分。

I'd build these really sophisticated models and these big spreadsheets and everything tied in and you could add a headcount here and it would add everything.

我的意思是，这真的非常——你知道的——非常复杂。

I mean, it was really, you know, really sophisticated.

我记得卡斯珀曾提到过我最初的投资者、董事会成员和导师。

I remember like Casper was remembering about one of my initial investors, board members and mentors.

你知道，他会看一眼，然后说，托比，我并不怀疑你电子表格里的计算。

You know, he'd look at it and he's like, Toby, I don't doubt the math in your spreadsheet.

我怀疑的是你的假设。

I doubt the assumptions.

因为我从未听说过有创业者来找我，说他们在预测时过于激进或乐观。

Because I've never yet heard an entrepreneur come to me and tell me they're being overly aggressive and optimistic on their forecast.

每个人都很保守。

Everybody is conservative.

每个人都是。

Everybody.

而且每个人都错了。

And everybody's wrong.

对吧？

Right?

所以我只能不断尝试，你也得坚持尝试、持续迭代，我记得当时感觉特别尴尬。

And so I just gotta try and you gotta keep trying and keep iterating and I just remember feeling pretty sheepish.

现在每次我看到创业者展示他们的商业计划书和财务数据时，都会笑出来。

And now I laugh every time because every time I see an entrepreneur pitch their pitch deck, their financials.

这是我们非常保守的模型。

So this is our very conservative model.

我心里想：当然了，因为从来没人会拿出一个乐观或激进的模型来演示。

I'm like, sure it is because no one ever pitches an optimistic or aggressive model.

我觉得你得去尝试。

I think you gotta try.

在你还不确定之前，你必须去尝试，必须进去闯一闯。

Until you don't know, you gotta try, you gotta get in there.

我们最初以为企业市场会率先行动，觉得那是最大的痛点，也是最容易切入的市场路径。

You know, we initially thought enterprise would move first, but we thought that was the biggest pain point, easiest path to market.

但进展实在太慢了。

And it was just super slow.

市场规模不够大。

The numbers weren't big enough.

我们开始有点担心了，天啊，底特律的医疗健康领域，我们稍微涉足了一下医疗行业，这可是监管极其严格、市场进入难度很高的领域，而且还有很多既得利益者，他们不愿意共享资源，也不愿意好好合作。

You know, we're starting to get concerned of like dang, okay, Detroit healthcare, we pushed a little bit into healthcare, crazy regulated, hard path to market, a lot of entrenched players who don't like to share and don't like to play nice.

然后苹果推出了触控ID和Apple Pay，整个世界对我们敞开了大门，而我们之前已经做了一些银行和金融服务方面的工作。

And then Apple came out with Touch ID and Apple Pay, And that entire world opened up to us and we've doing already done some work in banking and financial services.

所以一切都立刻变得清晰了。

So it immediately became clear.

所以我们很快关闭了医疗和企业业务，说：好吧，所有赌注都押在这里了。

So we shut down healthcare and enterprise in very short order and say, okay, all our eggs, here we go.

我记得和我的投资者们谈过，我记得那些都是我的董事会成员。

I remember having the conversations with my investors, I remember those are my board.

我认识的一些人说，我们认为这不是企业市场。

I've had guys, we don't think it's enterprise.

我们认为这不是医疗市场。

We don't think it's healthcare.

我们知道我们在那个领域已经做了很多工作。

We know we've done a lot of work in that space.

我们认为应该止损，彻底关闭那部分业务，把所有资源都投入到金融服务和支付领域。

We think we got to cut our losses, shut everything down there and pour everything into the financial services and payments.

我记得有一位董事会成员问：我明白，但你意识到你把所有鸡蛋都放在这个篮子里了吗？

And I remember one of the board members asked like, I get it, but you realize you're putting all your eggs in this basket.

如果你错了，可能就没有下一次机会了。

If you're wrong, there's probably not another iteration on this.

是的，我明白。

And like, yep, I understand.

这正是我想说的。

And that's exactly what I'm saying.

我们确实这么做了，付出极大努力，也有一点运气。

And we did and we got a little bit lucky and worked our tail off.

但当然，你必须去尝试，保持开放心态接受可能犯错，多交流，并根据反馈的数据来调整。

But yeah, you just gotta try and and and be open to being wrong and have conversations and kind of look at the data as it comes back.

所以当你说到为公司关停时，是指重新分配业务拓展和销售资源吗？

So when when you say shut it down for your company, did that mean redirecting like biz dev and sales efforts?

还是指改变工程团队的投入方向？

Or did that mean like changing engineering effort?

对你来说，这具体意味着什么？

Or what did that mean for you?

我只是有点好奇。

I'm just kinda curious.

是的，很好。

Yeah, great.

业务拓展和销售。

Biz dev and sales.

核心产品在各个领域都适用。

Core product works across the board.

有一些集成方式不同，但你知道的，95%的核心产品始终是一样的，只是它如何集成到不同人的平台中有所变化。

There's some integrations that were different, but, you know, 95% of the core product was always the same, kind of how it got integrated into different people's platform changed.

但你知道，无论是在医疗、金融服务还是企业领域，它本质上都是将你的眼睛图像转化为替代密码的密钥。

But, you know, whether it was healthcare or financial services or enterprise, it was always basically transforming a picture of your eye into a key to replace passwords.

所以我想稍微回退一下，谈谈融资的部分，因为马特，我还没来得及问你，我想问你一个问题：在融资过程中，你犯过什么错误？

So I want to backpedal for a second to the raising capital part because Matt, I didn't get to ask, I wanted to ask you the question, what's a mistake that you've made that you look back at when it came to raising capital?

比如，你有没有在哪些方面疏忽了，或者有所改进，或者一路上有什么经验？

Like what's something that you might you either dropped the ball on or got better at or anything along the way?

我跟你说，对我来说，就是以为融资不会花太长时间。

And and I'll tell you, for me, it was thinking that it wouldn't take a long time.

我觉得，光是觉得自己能做成这件事就已经很难了。

I would say just thinking you can even do it.

就像认为每个人都能尝试去申请和投资吗？

Like just gen like that everyone can try to check and invest?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这件事花费的时间比你想象的长十倍，难度也高十倍，这是一份全职工作，你每天都有想跳楼的冲动。

The I mean, the it's it takes ten times longer than you think it's gonna take, and it's 10 times harder, and it's a full time job, and you wanna jump off a cliff most days.

我的意思是

I mean

我觉得这很公平。

I think that's fair.

除非你有一个公司正以惊人的速度增长，人人都想投资你，但这种情况大概百万分之一。

Unless you have this company that is growing at some astronomical pace that everybody is beating down your door, which is like one in 100 or one in 1,000.

对吧？

Right?

其余时间，你知道，你只是在经营某种普通生意，然后你拼命地到处奔走，戴着帽子乞求风投把钱投给你。

The rest of the time, you know, you've just got some kind of normal business and whatever, and you're, like, desperately running around with your hat out, and you're trying to get VCs to throw money in it.

而他们，不。

And they and no.

这根本行不通。

It just doesn't work.

你够大。

It you're big.

你太小了。

You're too small.

你所在的行业不对。

You're the wrong industry.

你是这个。

You're this.

你是那个。

You're that.

我的意思是，有一千个理由。

I mean, there's a thousand reasons.

他们都拒绝。

They all say no.

你得跟上千个人谈，才能找到一个说好的。

And you got to talk to, like, a thousand of them until you find one that says yes.

然后新冠疫情来了，他们还是说不。

And then coronavirus happens, and then they say no.

这就是它的运作方式。

That's the way it works.

他们要么拒绝，要么修改投资条款。

They say no or they change the term sheet.

是的。

Yeah.

对，你提到花费的时间。

Yeah, you talk about the amount of time.

我的意思是，这可能是我在和早期阶段的任何人交谈时最常遇到的问题之一。

I mean, that's probably one of the most common things I run into when talking to early stage anybody.

他们谈论着，你知道的，我看着他们说，你们的现金流只够撑六周了。

They're talking about how, you know, I'm looking at them and say, You guys have like six weeks of runway.

是的，但我们正在寻找投资者。

Yeah, but we're looking for investors.

这会没问题的。

That's gonna be okay.

我心想，你们可麻烦大了。

I'm like, You guys are in huge trouble.

我的意思是，你们有和任何人谈过吗？

Like, you know, have you talked to anyone?

你们在兑现支票吗？

Are you cashing a check?

所以，我们刚刚开始做融资路演。

So, you know, we just started giving out pitches.

我们认为进展会很顺利。

We think it'll go pretty well.

我心想：天哪。

I'm like, Oh man.

为了确认这一点，托比，你觉得从一个不认识你的真正天使投资人、真正的风投、基金或补助机构那里拿到钱，通常需要多长时间？

So, and just to verify that, Toby, how long do you think or how long does it typically take to get money from an investor that isn't someone that already knows you, that's a true angel, that's like, sure, I'll put in because I believe in you, an actual VC or a fund or a grant or any of that.

是的，我认为平均需要六到九个月。

Yeah, I'd say probably average would be six to nine months.

如果你运气好，三到四个月就能搞定。

You're lucky, could do it in three or four.

我见过花了一年时间的。

I've seen it take a year.

影响因素真的太多了。

It really so many variables.

对吧？

Right?

有多容易理解？

How how easy is it to understand?

这又是我学到的另一件事。

This is also like here's another thing that I learned.

他们喜欢找模式。

They like to pattern match.

对吧？

Right?

所以，当你去见风投时，如果能说明他们过去投资了哪些项目，以及你觉得你在哪个不同行业里和他们投资过的公司比较相似。

And so if you can say, so going into the VC, knowing what investments they've made and who do you think you kind of look like, but in a different industry.

这样能帮助他们快速判断，避免浪费你和他们的时间，看看这是否是个合适的项目，对吧？

So that really helps them quickly assess and not waste your time or theirs, is this a good fit, Right?

另外，如果你觉得自己和他们投资的某些其他公司有相似之处，他们已经投资了那些公司。

And what also helps there, if you feel like you pattern match with some of their other portfolio companies, they've already invested in those portfolio companies.

所以本质上，你是在说：我们看起来就像这些公司，你们已经投资过它们了，而这里是我们为什么仍然合理的原因。

So essentially, you're making the case, hey, we look like these, you've already made investments in these, and here's why we still make sense.

不过有个注意事项，我以前这么做过，而那个被投公司实际上是风投基金里的‘累赘’。

A caveat though, I've done that before and that particular portfolio company was like the dog in the VC fund.

后来我才意识到，哦，等等，可能我不该举这个例子。

I found out later like, oh, wait, probably should not have made that example.

是的。

Yes.

我们就像那匹每次比赛都垫底的马。

We're a lot like this horse that finishes last in the race every time.

但如果你非要打个比方，那就是最贴切的了。

But if you wanna make a comparison, that's the one.

我觉得这很有趣。

I think that's interesting.

还有，同样地，我看到很多人去追逐那些从不投资于他们特定领域或行业的公司。

Know, another thing too, is in that same boat, I see a lot of people chasing investment from companies that never make investments in their particular focus or industry.

而且，我觉得你可以把这种申请模式再精简一点。

And, you know, I think that you can narrow that application pattern down a little bit.

比如，如果有一家公司只投资软件，而你是家服务公司，我们在Full Scale就学到过这一点，你知道的，比如，我们很喜欢这家公司，但我们不会向服务公司投资，诸如此类。

And like, if there's a company that only invests in software and you're a service company, So we learned some of that at Full Scale, you know, like, hey, love the company, but we don't write checks to service companies, you know, or something like that.

所以，我的意思是，你只需要做一些基本的假设，根本不需要数据科学，大家只需要一些常识就行。

So, I mean, you can, through a little bit of just general assumption, you don't need data science to do this people, just some general assumption.

不知道，去找那些看起来支持你业务的人吧。

Don't know, aim for the people that seem to be supporting what you do.

马特，你有什么评论吗？

Did you have a comment, Matt?

嗯，时不时会有人来找我，想让我投资房地产。

Well, I was gonna say people come to me every once in while and they want me to invest in real estate.

我会说，我对房地产一窍不通啊？

And I'm like, what the fuck do I know about real estate?

我不会投资房地产。

I'm not investing in real estate.

我的意思是，这属于一部分

Mean, that's part

是同样的事情。

of it the same thing.

情况都一样。

It goes the same way.

比如，你投资你懂的东西，对吧？

Like, you invest in what you know, right?

你得找到合适的投资者。

You gotta find the right investors.

要寻找那些能为你带来重大影响的投资者。

Well, look for investors that are able to move the needle for you.

对。

Right.

你知道，即使在Full Scale，就像Toby一样，我们也做过一些本地项目。

You know, and that's, I mean, we've even at Full Scale, and you know, Full Scale is much like Toby, we've done some local stuff here.

我们面前有过很多很棒的创始人，他们的项目非常值得投资。

And I've had great founders in front of us that had stuff that was very much investment worthy.

我曾经说过，我真的什么都不懂。

And I've said like, I just don't know anything.

我知道沃森对这个行业一无所知。

I know Watson doesn't know anything about this industry.

我的意思是，医疗保健就是其中之一。

I mean, well, healthcare is one of them.

这根本不是我们俩有太多经验去寻找解决方案的领域。

Like that's just not something that either of us have had a lot of experience finding solutions around.

我一年甚至不去看一次医生，只有当他们打电话威胁我如果不来就怎么样时我才去，你知道的，这根本不是我们的专长。

I don't even go to the I go to the doctor once a year and that's because they call and threaten me if I don't come in, you know, and it's just not our wheelhouse.

托比，你觉得找那些真正有智慧的投资者来对齐方向怎么样？

Toby, how do you feel about getting aligned with investors that have the like that true smart money investor?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得最终你得到的是，你知道，在投资界我逐渐深刻理解的一个术语叫逆向选择。

Think it's what you end up with is, you know, there's a phrase that I've also come to to really appreciate in the investment world is called adverse selection.

对吧？

Right?

所以真正聪明的资金往往能获得非常好的项目渠道，因为人们知道他们是谁以及他们想要什么。

And so really smart money tends to get really good deal flow because people know who they are and what they want.

当你遇到那些只是提供资金的人——称之为傻钱时，他们通常投资的是那些无法吸引聪明资金的公司。

When you get people who are just money, call it dumb money, they tend to be the companies that haven't been able to get smart money.

对吧？

Right?

因此，这就会导致逆向选择。

And so you get adverse selection with that.

你知道的？

You know?

所以当人们来找我，或者当我总是鼓励他人时，我总会认真思考：这些人真正聪明的地方在哪里？

So when, you know, people approach me or when I've always pushed others, I've always really tried to think of, okay, where are these guys smart?

我该如何表达，真正清晰地说明他们的价值——那种不是金钱带来的价值——对我而言意味着什么？对吧？

And how do I say and really articulate where their, you know, value add, that's not money makes a difference for me, Right?

因为他们想知道自己的优势在哪里，他们能带来什么价值，是人脉、行业经验、技术，你知道的，有很多不同的方面，但关键是理解逆向选择从何而来，以及大量的交易机会。

Because they want to know where they're smart, how they add value, is it relationships, is it experience in a domain, is it the technology, you know, there's a lot of different areas, but kind of understanding where adverse selection comes in, and a lot of deal flow.

很多时候，如果你遇到的人对你所在的领域一无所知、毫无联系，那你接触到的就是逆向的交易机会，赶紧跳过，继续前进。

A lot of times, if you get people who have no idea, have no connectivity to your area, you're getting adverse deal flow and pass quickly, move on.

我觉得这些建议相当不错。

I I think that that's some pretty good advice there.

那么，你认为那些处于逆向选择阶段的早期公司，是因为拿不到聪明钱，还是仅仅因为它们根本不懂其中的区别？

Now, do you think that some of those early stage companies that are in that adverse selection area, do you think it's because they can't get smart money, or it's just because do you think they just don't know the difference?

这是一个混合情况。

It is a mix.

有时候，他们根本分不清区别。

You know, sometimes they don't know the difference.

这就是我们面临的问题之一，尤其是在旧金山、奥斯汀、纽约这些非高度集中的城市里，资源集中度这么高，获取反馈和指导相对容易，比如谁在融资、你处于什么位置、如何做路演。

And that's, you know, one of the issues that we have and when in these non, you know, heavily concentrated cities like San Francisco or Austin, New York, there's so much concentration is so, let's say it's easy, it's easier to get feedback and guidance on who's raising, where do you fit, how to make the pitch.

所以他们更容易获得这类反馈。

So they just it's easier to get that kind of feedback.

像堪萨斯城或美国中西部许多地区、较小的市场，密度不够，所以你们通过Startup Hustle所做的工作，以及Startland和其他人努力传播信息、为人们提供提问场所的做法，至关重要。

And places like Kansas City or a lot of the Midwest or the smaller markets, the density isn't there, you know, so some of the stuff that you guys are doing with Startup Hustle, you know, a lot of the stuff that folks are doing with Startland and others of getting the word out, giving people a place to come to ask questions is super important.

有时候他们真的不知道。

Sometimes they don't know.

有时候初创公司根本不该获得融资，对吧？

And sometimes startups shouldn't be funded, right?

并不是每个初创公司都是好点子。

Not every startup is a great idea.

每个提出想法的CEO，也许这个想法还不错，但他们根本不是优秀的创始人，就不该获得融资，对吧？

Every CEO that comes up with an idea, is maybe it's a decent idea, is just not a good founder and they shouldn't be funded, right?

所以我觉得，有时候我们误以为只要你是CEO、有个初创公司，就理应获得融资，但答案是否定的，其实并不然。

So I think sometimes we think if you're a CEO and you've got a startup, you deserve to be funded and the answer is no, not really.

你可能值得，但并不是每个项目、每个CEO都该获得融资。

You might be, but every deal and every CEO that comes along shouldn't be.

因此，我认为建立这样的生态系统，让有人积极现身、为人们提供接入点，是至关重要的。

And so I think having this kind of, you know, ecosystem and people trying to be visible and giving people touch points to get plugged in is super important.

所以，如果你确实具备正确的性格、坚韧不拔的精神和足够的毅力，并且有一个不错的点子，那你就能获得资金支持，有机会站上舞台。

So that at least if if, again, you do have that right personality, that right tenacity, that right grit, and you've got a decent idea, then you're gonna get fun and you get a chance to get up there.

因此，我们不希望人们因为错误的原因而失败。

So again, we don't want people to lose for the wrong reasons.

今天我们再次邀请到托比·拉什，他是我们堪萨斯城市场的投资者、企业家和意见领袖，也受到许多人的关注。

So with us today once again, Toby Rush, investor, entrepreneur, influencer here in our Kansas City market and to many people all around.

另外，托比，感谢你成为我们生态系统中如此重要的一员，也感谢你今天加入我们。

And by the way, Toby, thanks for being such an important part of our ecosystem and also for joining us today.

我知道我经常在各种活动和场合见到你。

I know that I've seen you around at a lot of different events and stuff like that.

我认为像你这样的人传递知识非常重要。

I think it's really important that people like yourself transfer knowledge.

也就是说，这是我们主要的使命之一。

Mean, that's one of our main mission statements.

在继续之前，今天的《Startup Hustle》节目由fullscale.io赞助，他们帮助你快速且经济地组建软件团队。

Now, before we move on, today's episode of Start Hustle is brought to you by fullscale.io helping you build software teams quickly and affordably.

Toby，我们会在《Startup Puzzle》每期节目的结尾进行一个叫做‘创始人自由发挥’的环节，这今天正好是个完美的过渡，因为我们已经谈到了经验教训。

Toby, we end episodes of Startup Puzzle with what we call the founders freestyle, which is a perfect segue for today, as we have talked about lessons learned.

总的来说，如果你必须分享一条作为初创企业创始人的经验，给未来的初创创始人，你最先想到的是什么？

Overall, if you had to share one lesson as a startup founder that you could give to future startup founders, what comes to mind first?

人际关系。

Relationships.

我的意思是，人际关系常常是公司成功或失败的原因。

I mean, relationships are often why companies succeed and why they fail.

这适用于你的联合创始人，适用于你的团队，适用于你的董事会，适用于你的投资者，甚至适用于你生活中真正享受的那些事情。

That goes for your founder, that goes for the team, that goes for your board, that goes for your investors, and just honestly, the things that you enjoy in life.

因此，我们生命中最珍视的财富就是人际关系，今天如此，明天如此，直到我们生命的尽头也是如此。

So the treasure that we care most about in life are relationships and that's true today, it'll be true tomorrow, and it'll be true at the end of our life.

有时候我们会感到困惑，甚至误入歧途，以为金钱才是目标，才是我们真正追求的东西。

And sometimes we get confused and I would say misdirected in thinking that money is the goal and money is the thing that we'll love.

但真正重要的是人和人际关系。

But it's really about people and relationships.

在创业过程中，永远不要牺牲或妥协人际关系，这会对你大有裨益。

And to never sacrifice or compromise people relationships on the journey and that will that will serve you well.

马特，你呢？

Matt, how about you?

是的，我也想呼应托比刚才提到的观点。

Yeah, to echo what Toby mentioned there too.

托比，你提到很多早期投资者都是你有关系的人。

I think, Toby, you mentioned that a lot of your early investors were people you had relationships with.

Stackify 的许多投资者也是我认识的人。

And a lot of the people that were investors in Stackify were people I had relationships with.

但我也想说，一个关键的建议是倾听并向周围的人、导师和社区成员提问。

But also, I want to say, I think a key advice is listening and asking questions from those around you, from mentors, people in the community.

这个周末，有人在 StartupKC 上分享了一个商业点子。

Like there was somebody on StartupKC posted this weekend about some business idea.

我一看就想到，这个商业点子我至少见过二十次了，而且每次都失败了。

And immediately, I'm like, seen this business idea about 20 more times, and it's failed all 20 of them.

所以我实际上联系了那个人，跟他说：我不明白你到底想做什么。

So I actually reached out to the guy and I'm like, I don't know what you're trying to do.

但你需要去跟那个人谈谈。

But you need to talk to that guy.

因为我知道这个方向会走向哪里，但它是行不通的。

Because I see where this is going, and it's not gonna work.

但之前我们作为创始人也讨论过这一点，你知道，我们往往孤注一掷，无所畏惧，诸如此类。

But we talked about this a little bit before as a founder, you know, we tend to bet the farm and be fearless and all those things.

但我们也必须倾听他人、倾听导师的意见，我认为这极其关键。

But we also have to listen to others listen to mentors, and that I think that's super critical.

但这很难。

But it's hard.

所以

So

我呢，马特，我想接着你刚才说的继续讲。

I, you know, I'm gonna parlay off of that, Matt.

在结束之前，我再提一下，今天的节目《Start Up》由Full Scale赞助。

And you know, before I go, once again, today's episode, Start Up Also brought to you by Full Scale.

所以，在你跳进去之前，你得先看看悬崖下面是什么，稍微了解一下你要面对的情况。

So yeah, I think it before you jump in, you got to look over the cliff and see what you're jumping into a little bit.

是的，我在Gigabook上就这么做过，我们推出了Gigabook，但很快发现竞争比我们最初想象的要激烈得多。

Yeah, I've kind of did this with Gigabook and you know, we launched Gigabook and quickly realized the competition was a lot deeper than we had originally thought.

而且，你会听到一些说法，比如‘兔子洞’。

And, you know, you hear phrases and things like the rabbit hole.

一旦你深入下去，就会像打扑克时已经投入太多筹码一样，发现自己陷入了一些棘手的困境，比如：我该不该就此退出？

And once you get far enough down it, you kind of mean similar to poker and being pot committed, you know, you find yourself in some having some interesting dilemmas, like, do I walk away from this?

我的一些尝试和失败经历表明，如果早点放弃，我反而会赚得更多，因为省钱就是赚钱。

And I mean, there's things that I've tried and failed at that it would have been a lot more profitable for me to quit earlier because saving money is making money.

我认为，对我而言，最重要的教训就是，通往收入的路途充满危险，要重新回到正轨并不容易。

I think, and for me, the overall thing is, I think the one lesson I've learned is just that that path to revenue and getting back to that and understand that it's a treacherous road.

你知道，对于服务公司、特许经营之类的企业，实现收入的路径可能要短得多，因为你能快速提供服务；而软件则不然。

You know, but a service company or a franchise or something like that, your path to revenue can be a lot shorter because you can provide services quickly with something like software.

而且你知道，当我们谈论从零开始开发软件时，我能感受到今天所有嘉宾和主持人正在掉头发，因为你真的完全没底。

And, you know, I can feel all of today's guests and hosts losing hair when we talk about building software from the beginning, because you really just don't know.

所以这就是为什么，当我们与Full Scale的潜在客户交谈时，我们会告诉他们：他们问，这要花多少钱？要多久才能完成？

And that's why, you know, when we talk to potential clients at Full Scale, we tell them, I'm like, they say, Well, how much is it gonna cost and how long will it take?

完全没概念。

No clue.

这完全取决于你。

That depends so much on you.

这不在预测范围内。

It's not in the forecast.

是的，确实没法确定，没错。

Yeah, can't, yeah, right.

我应该直接给他看，我就拿个托比的照片给他，我会说：这家伙告诉我这得花多长时间。

I should just give it, that's, I'm gonna take the Toby, I'm gonna just give him a picture of Toby a I'm blank gonna be like, this dude told me this is how long it would take.

但我认为这很关键。

But I think that's key.

我认为，不管你多么成功、多么有动力、多么充满热情，你都会遇到大量问题。

And I think that if you think that despite how successful you've been, how driven you are, how passionate, you're gonna run into a hell of a lot of problems.

如果你没有意识到这一点，人们应对这些问题的方式会各不相同。

And if you aren't, people handle those differently.

我们经常引用迈克·泰森的话：每个人都有计划，直到他们被一拳打在脸上。

We quote Mike Tyson a lot by saying everyone had a plan until they got punched in the face.

那么，你打算怎么应对这种情况呢？

So how are you gonna figure that out?

而且，你知道，你打算怎么度过这一关？

And, you know, like, how are you gonna get through that?

我的意思是，如果你花点时间观察一下，就会发现像托比、马特或者我自己这样的人，都非常愿意回答问题，因为当初也有人这样帮助过我们。

I mean, I think if you take some time and look around, there's people like Toby or Matt or myself that are probably very willing to answer questions because someone did that for us.

所以，环顾四周，看看你能找到谁。

So look around and see who you could find.

我知道第一个对我影响特别大的导师是拉雷尔·霍尔特，他曾经是我们的嘉宾，大概是第15位左右的嘉宾吧。

I know one of the first people that was a mentor to me that really stood out was Larel Holt, who's been a guest on, now he was what, maybe like guest 15 or something like that.

但他也出现在我的书《平衡自我》中。

But he was also in my book, Balance Me.

现在坐下来和Larel交谈，感觉就像见到了尤达，你知道吗？他提供的信息和建议如此深刻，需要时间去消化，有点像你得一层层剥开它的内涵。

Now sitting down with Larel feels like you just visited Yoda, you know, like you almost to the point that some of the info and input so deep, it takes time to, it's kind of like, you gotta peel back the layers of it.

当Liral登上《创业奋斗》节目后离开时，我看着Matt，Matt说：‘我想长大后成为像Liral这样的人。’

When Liral was on Startup Hustle, he left and I looked at Matt and Matt's like, I think I wanna be like Liral when I grow up.

你点了点头，我猜你见过Liral，Toby。

And you nodded your head, I'm assuming you've met Liral, Toby.

我见过，是的。

I have, yeah.

L'Errol很棒。

L'Errol's great.

我的第一家创业公司，是的，他太棒了。

My first company, yeah, he's awesome.

是的，你只需要找到这样的人，他会如实告诉你真相。

Yeah, so you just find, but he's someone that'll tell you what's up.

就像你所说的，去听一听。

And like you said, listen to it.

所以我们通常不会这么做，但这次我要把话筒再传一圈，因为我们聊到了一些不同的内容。

So now normally we don't do this, but I'm gonna pass the mic back around because we got into some different stuff here.

你们对早期阶段的成功或失败有什么总结性看法吗？

Do you guys have any closing arguments about about success or failure in the early stages?

没有？

No?

我想说的是，这其实是一个迭代的过程，你知道，公司在成功或失败，并不等于你个人的成功或失败，这让你能够真正地畅想更大的目标。

Oh, the only thing I'd say is, again, it's iterative, you know, success or failure at your company is not success or failure of you as a person, which allows you to actually dream a lot bigger.

你会不断猜测，你知道，当一件事失败时，如果它不代表你是个失败者，你就能梦想得更远。

You guess a lot, you know, you can dream so much bigger when if that thing happens to fail, it doesn't mean you're a failure.

所以，别把身份和结果混为一谈，大胆去闯。

So, yeah, separate that identity and go big.

是的。

Yeah.

我的沃森，还有别的吗？

My Watson, anything else?

是的。

Yeah.

我唯一想说的是，稍微跟进一下。

My my only thing there is just to follow a little bit.

你必须追踪资金流向，而不要过于死板地坚持某个所谓的北极星目标，比如‘我就是要做X、Y和Z’，但那根本行不通；相反，你应该发现可以做出微小的方向调整，从而取得成功。

You have to follow the money and not get too overly rigid on following some north star of like, no, I wanna do x, y, and z, but that's literally never gonna work, where you figure out you can make a slight change in direction and be successful.

有些人失败了，只是因为他们不愿意做出这种小小的调整。

And some people fail because they just fail to be willing to make that small change.

是的，这种方向的调整正是这一点的关键。

Yeah, and that's something that's important to that that change in direction.

我引用沃森的话：也许你离伟大只差一次转型。

I quote Watson, maybe you're just one pivot away from greatness.

好了，说到这儿，今天我听到了太多宝贵的建议， guys，我得回去工作了。

So now with that, man, I got so much great advice today, guys, I gotta get I gotta get back to work.

那我下次再和你联系。

So I'll catch up with you next time.

太棒了。

Awesome.

谢谢大家邀请我参加。

Thanks, guys, for having me on.

Startup Puzzles 由 fullscale.io 赞助，帮助您快速且经济地组建软件团队。

Startup Puzzles brought to you by fullscale.io, helping you build a software team quickly and affordably.

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Make sure you reach down and hit that subscribe button, then come find us on Instagram.

下次见。

See you next time.