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现在招聘工程师的方式有点问题。
Hiring engineers right now is kind of broken.
AI简历、虚假资料，有些人简历看着像资深人士，却根本无法交付实际成果。
AI resumes, fake profiles, people who look senior on paper but can't ship anything real.
G2i 能彻底解决这些问题。
G2i cuts through all of that.
他们已经预先审核了超过8000名工程师。
They've pre vetted over 8,000 engineers.
不是简单看看他们的GitHub就通过审核，而是通过真实的技术面试进行实际测试。
Not we glanced at their GitHub vetted, actually tested with live technical interviews.
无论是外包还是全职，只要告诉他们你的需求，几天内你就能开始审核真实候选人，并享受无风险试用。
Contractor or full time, just tell them what you need and within days you're reviewing real candidates and you get a risk free trial.
如果不合适，他们会在24小时内更换工程师。
If it's not a fit, they'll replace the dev in twenty four hours.
Meta信任他们，1Password信任他们，那些需要快速推进又不想犯昂贵错误的初创创始人也同样信任他们。
Meta trusts them, 1Password trusts them, so do bootstrap founders who need to move fast without expensive mistakes.
如果你去过React Miami，你就知道他们深深扎根于开发者生态中。
If you've been to React Miami, you already know they're deeply embedded in the builder ecosystem.
他们今年还将推出AI Miami。
They're also launching AI Miami this year.
请访问 g2i.co/rob 了解更多。
Check them out at g2i.co/rob.
提及 Startups for the Rest of Us，即可享受七天免费试用并优惠1500美元。
Get a seven day free trial and $1,500 off when you mention Startups for the Rest of Us.
网址是 g2i.co/rob。
That's g2i.co/rob.
你正在收听《Startups with the Rest of Us》的另一期节目。
You're listening to another episode of Startups with the Rest of Us.
我是主持人罗布·沃林，本期节目我邀请到了Tailwind CSS的联合创始人亚当·瓦坦。
I'm your host, Rob Walling, and in this episode I welcome Adam Wathan, co founder of Tailwind CSS, to the show.
在本期节目中，我们实际上讨论了两个非常不同的主题，因为我原本邀请亚当来谈谈创始人健身，或者作为创始人如何保持健康。
And in this show we actually talk about two very disparate topics because I had originally invited Adam on to talk about founder fitness or just staying fit as a founder.
这并不是关于每天举很多重量、在健身房待两个小时，而是关于如何以最短的时间保持一个还说得过去的体态，同时经营一家耗尽你全部精力、时间和专注力的公司。
This isn't about lifting a bunch of weights and spending two hours in the gym every day, it's actually about how to do it as quickly as possible and staying in half ass decent shape as you're running an all encompassing company that takes all your energy, time and focus.
我邀请他来参加节目，但在这期间，他发布了关于Tailwind公司不得不进行大规模裁员的消息。
And I invited him on and then in the meantime he has posted about how they had to do pretty dramatic layoffs at Tailwind.
所以今天这一期，我们将深入探讨这两个话题。
And so in this episode today we dive into those two topics.
首先，更新一下Tailwind Labs的现状，以及那里发生的一切。
First an update on Tailwind Labs and how they're doing you know as a company and everything that went down there.
然后我们会转到创始人健身这个话题。
And then we switch it up and head into Founder Fitness.
在进入我和Adam的对话之前，MicroConf欧洲会议的门票已经开售。
Before we dive into my conversation with Adam, MicroConf Europe tickets are on sale.
今年MicroConf欧洲将在冰岛雷克雅未克的宏伟哈帕音乐厅举行。
This year MicroConf Europe is in Reykjavik, Iceland at the stunning Harpa Concert Hall.
日期是9月21日至2026年。
Dates are September 21 through the 2026.
我们已经公布了前几位演讲者，但我猜在公布所有演讲者之前，门票就会售罄。
We've already announced our first couple speakers, but I would guess we will sell out long before we announce all the speakers.
除了我之外，另外两位演讲者是Agelyx的Agnes Gianna Sanne和Conversion Factory的Corey Haynes。
Two speakers in addition to myself include Agnes Gianna Sanne of Agelyx and Corey Haynes of Conversion Factory.
你可以前往microconfeurope.com购买门票。
You can head to microconfeurope.com to grab your ticket.
门票的价格永远不会比今天更低，你知道门票价格每两三个月就会上涨一次，而且过去几年我们的每场活动都售罄了。
Tickets will never be less expensive than they are today, and as you know ticket prices go up every month or two, and we've sold out every event for the past several years.
所以，如果你想要来和我以及大约150到175位你最喜欢的自力更生创始人朋友相聚，就应该去microconfeurope.com。
So if you want to come hang out with me and I don't know about a 150, 175 of your favorite bootstrapped founder friends, you should head to microconfeurope.com.
好了，接下来让我们开始我和Adam的对话。
And with that let's dive into my conversation with Adam.
Adam Wathan，感谢你参加我的节目。
Adam Wathan, thanks for joining me on the show.
谢谢你的邀请，先生。
Thanks for having me, sir.
最近怎么样？
How's it going?
非常好，老兄。
It's going really well, man.
你从来没当过初创公司专家吗？
I can't believe is this the first time you've been a startup specialist?
我以前从来没上过这个节目。
I've never been on this show before.
这是我的疏忽。
That's an oversight on my part.
我们曾在MicroConf上演讲过，一起聚会、吃饭、喝酒，聊邮件都好几年了。
We've spoken at MicroConf, we've hung out, we've had dinner, we've had drinks and talked email for years.
但我有时候就是觉得
But I just sometimes it's an
开放的，是的。
open Yeah.
不。
No.
我非常兴奋能上这个节目，因为我从很久以前就开始听这个节目了，早在我们相识、我在MicroConf演讲或参加MicroConf之前就一直在听了。
I'm I'm excited to be on because I've been listening to the show since a long time before we ever met or I got to speak at MicroConf or even attend MicroConf.
所以能上这个节目真的非常棒。
So it's definitely awesome to be on.
而且这时间上还挺巧的，因为制作人罗恩告诉我：嘿。
And there's a kind of coincidental timing because producer Ron had told me, hey.
我们应该做一期关于创始人和健身的节目，因为之前在Slack上有一个小小的讨论串，后来突然火了。
We should do an episode about founders and fitness because there was a tiny seed Slack thread that kind of went wild.
人们在谈论塑形，不只是举重——那种内容哪里都能找到，对吧？或者说是健身。
People talking about getting in shape and not just about lifting weights, you can get that anywhere, right, or fitness.
但作为创始人，通常还要照顾家庭，你该怎么做到呢？
But it's like as a founder, usually with a family, how do you do this?
于是我去了X平台，问：谁应该被邀请来聊聊这个话题？
And so I went on X and said, who should I invite on to talk about this?
有好几个人提到了你。
And several people mentioned you.
所以我本来想在节日期间邀请你，但几天后你就发布了那期播客，说我们裁掉了75%的工程团队之类的。
So I went to invite you around the holidays, and then within a few days you had that podcast episode where you're like, We laid off 75% of our engineering tier or whatever.
我心想，天哪。
I'm like, Oh my gosh.
这真是太残酷了。
So it's brutal.
对创始人来说，这通常是旅程中最糟糕的一天。
It's usually the worst day of a founder's journey when that happens.
我觉得我基本上想聊聊这两方面。
I feel like I want to talk about both, basically.
如果不谈谈你的经历，那就太疏忽了。
It would be an oversight not to talk about your experience.
然后我也想听听最新进展，因为当时你公开做了这么大的回应。
And then I want to hear an update too, because there was such a public outreach.
那期播客叫《亚当的晨间散步》，我想是第三或第四期。
That podcast episode is called Adam's Morning Walk, and I think it's episode three or four.
那期内容基本上火了。
That basically went viral.
我觉得杰森·弗里德还评论了它，然后就彻底爆了。
I think Jason Fried was commenting on it and it just blew up.
当时有很多人想赞助。
There was this whole people wanting to sponsor.
我所在的Slack群组里有人说：‘我甚至都不用Tailwind，但我现在就要买个授权。’
People in Slack groups I'm in were like, I'm buying I don't even use Tailwind and I'm going to buy a license right now.
太疯狂了。
Was crazy.
我们稍后再谈那个点，但先带我们回溯一下，因为当我想到Tailwind CSS和你的公司Tailwind Labs——也就是那个开源项目时，我最后一次公开听说你们年收入已达数百万美元。
We'll get to that point, but take us back to because when I think of Tailwind CSS and Tailwind Labs, which is your company around the open source project, Last I heard publicly you're doing millions a year in revenue.
这不是持续性收入，而是一次性购买，对吧？
It's not recurring, but it is one time purchases, right?
你们当时有一个六到八人的小团队吗？
And you had a small team of six, seven, eight people?
大概是这样吗？
Is it something like that?
是的，我们最多的时候有八个人。
Yeah, we're eight people kind of at our biggest.
所以有足够的预算来支持人员开支。
And so plenty of budget to handle people.
但你之前提到过过去大约十二到十八个月的收入变化曲线，能给大家讲讲发生了什么吗？
But then you described this slide in revenue that you've seen over the past, what is it, twelve to eighteen months?
你想给大家详细说说吗？
You want to talk people through what happened?
是的。
Yeah.
差不多两年。
Like two years.
是的。
Yeah.
我想是吧。
I guess so.
我的意思是，我不确定我们回溯到多早，但基本上，你知道，Tailwind 显然是一个非常受欢迎的项目。
I mean, I don't know how far back we go, but basically, you know, Tailwind, obviously, the really popular project.
它似乎已经成为构建网站新前端的事实标准。
It's kind of become sort of a de facto standard, it feels like for building new front ends for websites.
我们可以说，收入在2023年达到了峰值。
You know, we sort of hit a peak, would say, in revenue at the 2023.
这正好是在ChatGPT首次出现、人们开始对AI感到兴奋之前。
So this is kind of like right before ChatGPT first, like, came on the scene and people started getting excited about AI.
而且也正好是Tailwind增长的巅峰时期，我想可以说，它目前基本上已经渗透了开发者市场。
And also just like right at sort of the peak of Tailwind's, I guess you would say growth, like it's it sort of feels like it's sort of saturated the developer market at this point.
到目前为止，每个人都听说过它，而那时候人们还在陆续接触并从其他工具转向它。
Like, everyone's heard of it at this point, whereas kind of back then people were still, like, coming into it and and switching to it from other things.
所以那时候正是我们表现最好的时候。
So right around that time is like when we were sort of doing the best.
我认为当时有好多因素在起作用。
And I think there was a bunch of factors there.
再说一遍，我们的商业模式是一次性销售。
Like, again, like, our business model was like one time sales.
所以新用户越多，对我们越有利，而不是市场饱和的那个阶段。
So the more new people are finding out about it, like the the better for us versus just like the market saturation sort of point.
当时也没有那么多竞争对手在开发类似的产品，但这种情况不可能永远持续。
There also wasn't as many people building like competing products, which that never lasts forever.
但那确实是个不错的状态，尤其是几乎没有免费开源产品的竞争。
But that's like a nice spot to be in, especially not as much like free open source competition.
而且，那时AI相关的东西还没真正兴起。
And yeah, the AI stuff hadn't really happened yet.
然后，我的意思是，我们在2023年初的时候表现得非常好。
And then, I mean, we were doing like really, really well at the beginning of 2023.
我们一直努力支付给员工比他们 elsewhere 可能拿到的更高的薪酬，这一点我一直很自豪，因为从来没有人主动要求加薪，而每个人却都多次获得了加薪。
Like, we've always tried to pay people like more than they'd probably get somewhere else, you know, that's something I've taken a lot of pride in is no one ever asked for a raise at this company ever and everyone got them multiple times.
是的。
Yeah.
所以那时我们的表现非常好。
So we were doing really well then.
然后，事情开始逐渐缓慢下来。
And then things like started to sort of slow down gradually over time.
但我在播客中描述这种情况时，感觉就像温水煮青蛙，因为变化太过缓慢，以至于在我心里，每个月都好像刚触到最低点。
But the way I described it on the podcast is it really felt like a sort of boiling the frog scenario because it was just happening so gradually that in my mind, like, every month just kinda felt like, oh, we sort of hit the bottom.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
是的，我们确实经历过一段蓬勃发展的时期，但之后就开始下滑，最终稳定在一个平稳的底部。
Like, yeah, we had, like, this really booming period, but it's, like, dropped off and we've sort of hit, like, a stable floor.
这么说听起来有点傻，甚至只是被动地做出这样的假设，我自己都觉得有点奇怪。
And it sounds like sort of silly to to say that and even just like talk about me sort of like passively making assumptions about that.
但我认为，很多创始人应该都能理解，你本质上并不是公司的销售总监、首席财务官之类的角色，对吧？
But I think probably like a lot of founders can empathize with just like, you're not primarily like a CRO at the company or a CFO or whatever, right?
我不是每天一整天都在分析电子表格和做预测。
Like, it's not like I'm spending all day every day analyzing spreadsheets and doing forecasts.
我主要是在做产品，思考我们下一步该做什么，诸如此类的事情。
I'm like working on the product, trying to figure out what we should do next, whatever.
只要能付得起账单，每天结束时账户里还剩点钱，我就没深入分析过，你知道吗？但到了去年年底，我决定：嘿，我真该确认一下，我关于一切稳定的假设是不是对的。
As long as like you can pay the bills, and it feels like there's money left over in the bank account at the end of the day, it just, I didn't analyze it that deeply, you know, and eventually, towards the end of last year, I decided, you know what, like, should really just like make sure that my assumptions about things being like stable are correct.
当我真正把趋势图画出来时，我才意识到，收入其实一直在稳步下降，每个月大约减少15美元。
And when I actually like plotted out the trend, I realized that, you know, revenue was dropping like pretty consistently by say, like $15 a month.
我突然意识到，除非收入跌到足以构成真正问题的临界点，否则我根本不会察觉到这种变化。
And it kind of dawned on me that like, I'm not really gonna feel this until like we cross that threshold where it's like dropped enough to be like a real problem.
这感觉就像非黑即白的事情，你知道吗？
It feels like a very black and white thing, you know?
一切看起来都很好，然后突然间，你就没钱发工资了。
It's like everything's fine and then all of a sudden you don't have enough money to pay people.
我意识到，如果这个趋势持续下去，我们大概在六七个月内就无法支付工资了。
And I realized if like the trend continued, like we weren't going to be able to make payroll within about like six or seven months.
是的。
Yeah.
于是，这件事逐渐变成了一种紧急状况。
So that's when it kind of became sort of a bit of an emergency.
我意识到，好吧，那我有哪些选择呢？
And I realized, okay, so like, what are my options here?
我可以继续努力扭转局面，重新回到能够负担现有团队的水平，这显然是每个人所希望的。
I can either keep trying to sort of like turn things around and get back to the point where we can still afford the team that we have, which obviously that's what everybody wants.
不管我做什么，这都是我想要的。
That's that's what I wanted regardless of what I did.
但最终我决定，无论我多么努力去这么做，这其实正是我过去两年一直在尝试的事，而我们试过的所有方法都没能真正解决问题，让我们重回增长轨道。
But ultimately decided, like, no matter how hard I try to do that, that that's what I've been trying to do for the last two years, and none of the things that we've tried have really, like, fixed it and turned us back into sort of growth mode.
无论我多么努力，我其实并没有掌控它的能力。
No matter how hard I try to do it, I I can't I don't actually have control over it.
你明白我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
我所能做的就是尽最大努力去影响它。
All I can do is try to affect it as much as possible.
因此，如果我不尝试做出一些应对最坏情况的改变，我觉得这对我来说是不负责任的。
So it kind of felt irresponsible to me to just not try to make changes that sort of plan for the worst case scenario.
因为我最不想看到的就是，等事情无法挽回时，某一天不得不告诉大家：‘嘿，伙计们，对不起。’
Because the last thing I wanted to do was not be able to turn it around and then one day just have to tell everyone, hey, guys, sorry.
我们负担不起继续保留所有人了，而且银行里也没有足够的钱为大家提供一份像样的遣散费，帮助大家顺利过渡到下一份工作。
We can't afford to keep everyone around and we don't have enough money in the bank to kind of provide you like with a solid severance for transitioning to the next thing.
如果我那样做，我根本无法原谅自己，因为我太清楚这对大家来说会有多大的压力。
Like, I wouldn't be able to live with myself doing that because I just know how stressful that would be for people.
所以我干脆做了决定：好吧，趁我们现在还有能力，现在就削减开支，给大家提供一份丰厚的遣散费，让这个过程不至于那么紧张，还能帮助他们找到下一份工作。
So instead just made the decision, okay, well, let's cut the expenses now while we can still give everyone a really healthy severance and make it not like a stressful situation for them and help them find like their next thing.
然后再想办法从那里重新翻身。
And then figure out, you know, how to turn it around from there.
至于我所认为发生的事情，其实是因为一个 GitHub 问题，有人想在我们的文档中添加对 Markdown LLM 端点的支持。
And in terms of like, what I sort of thought happened, like it sort of blew up because it was like a GitHub issue where someone was trying to add support for like markdown LLM endpoints to our docs.
我当时没把这个优先处理，因为我正忙于让业务运转起来。
And I had sort of like not prioritized it because I was busy trying to like make the business work.
有一天，有人发了一个非常无礼且自以为是的评论，直接问：‘什么时候有人会看这个？’
And one day someone just posted like a sort of rude entitled comment and it just saying like, when is someone gonna look at this?
已经过去好几个月了之类的。
It's been this many months or whatever.
而就在同一天，我刚刚裁掉了所有人，这简直就是一场完美风暴，让我彻底被激怒了。
And and that was like the same day that I had laid everyone off and it just was like the perfect storm of like, okay, like this has just gotten under my skin.
所以我最终回复了那条评论，解释说：听好了，你们想添加的这个功能，只会让更少的人访问我们的网站，而我们的流量已经下降了 40%，这意味着收入大幅下滑，因为我们的网站是产品的主要分发渠道。
So I just eventually so I just replied to it and sort of explained like, listen, like this feature that you wanna add is going to just make it make less people come to our website and traffic is already down by like 40%, which means revenue is down by a lot because our website is the distribution for our product.
而我花时间去开发这个功能，感觉和我们自己的商业模式背道而驰。
And me like spending time working on this feels like it's in like conflict with our own business model.
而现在，我已经陷入这种境地——我们不得不裁掉这么多人。
And right now I'm already in this situation where we just had to lay all these people off.
那我怎么有理由把时间花在这上面呢？
So how can I justify spending this time on that?
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
所以最终引爆这则大新闻的是：Tailwind Labs 因为 AI 裁掉了大批员工，虽然我认为这并不是全部真相，但我确实觉得这是故事中非常重要的一个部分。
So that's that's what ended up blowing up into the big news story was like, okay, Tailwind Labs just laid off a bunch of people because of AI, which I don't think is necessarily the whole story, but I do think is like a big a big part of the story.
从那以后，我们一直在思考：如何顺流而下，而不是逆流而上？
And what we've been trying to figure out ever since then is how can we sort of swim downstream instead of upstream?
因为自从 AI 出现以来，它基本上就成了我们的竞争对手。
Because AI has basically been our competition ever since it showed up.
但我并不希望情况变成这样，因为我对 AI 非常兴奋。
And I don't really want it to be that way because I'm a huge I'm hugely excited about it.
我每天都在使用它，它彻底改变了我的工作方式。
I use it every day and it's like changed the way that I work.
所以这真的就是让人觉得，我 personally 激动不已的这项技术，竟然成了我们业务的竞争对手，这感觉太糟了。
So it's really just sort of like, man, it sucks to feel like this technology that I'm personally excited about is in competition with our business.
而且肯定有什么办法，能重新思考我们该做什么，以适应这个新世界。
And surely there's got to be some way to like, reimagine what we do to sort of work in this new world.
而这正是我们现在正在努力探索的方向。
And that's kind of, you know, what we're what we're kind of working on now.
但说实话，当我发布那个播客时，我甚至都不知道自己为什么要发出来。
But yeah, when I put that podcast out, really I don't even know why why I put it out.
我一直都在做这个播客，只是坦率地聊聊我正在解决的问题，大概每周一次之类的。
Like I've been doing this podcast where I just sort of candidly talk about what problems I'm working on, you know, once a week or something like that.
当时我觉得听众也没多少，因为这本来就没打算做成一个热门节目。
And I don't think I had tons of listeners at the time, because it wasn't really intended to be that.
它纯粹就是我想说点什么的时候，随口说说而已。
It was it was really just like, what's on my mind?
我遛狗的时候，就用一个小小的电池供电领夹麦克风录下来。
I'm walking the dog using like a little battery powered lav mic.
你明白我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
这并不是一个制作精良的东西。
It's not a highly produced thing.
但结果它突然爆红了，许多公司纷纷主动出来赞助这个项目，而在此之前我们一直很难找到赞助方。
But that ended up really blowing up and tons of companies kind of came out of the woodwork to sort of sponsor the project, which we'd been having trouble sort of finding sponsors for the project before then.
是的。
And yeah.
说实话，这真的彻底改变了我们业务的财务方向。
Like like, honestly, really changed the direction of our business financially.
现在单靠公司的赞助收入就足以覆盖我们的开支，我们甚至都不用再操心产品了。
Now there's enough coming in from just companies sponsorships to cover our expenses without us even worrying about the products.
所以这挺好的。
So that was nice.
但确实，这完全是一场疯狂而意外的旋风。
But yeah, it was it was really just a crazy unexpected sort of whirlwind.
你知道吗，这让我想到了所谓的运气接触面问题。
You know, it makes me think of like the whole just luck surface area thing.
你知道，你只要谈论一些事情，把自己暴露出来，事情就可能发生。
You know, you just like you talk about things, you put yourself out there and like thing things can happen.
但说实话，我发布那个播客时并没有什么战略目标。
But yeah, there was no strategic goal when I've released that podcast.
我只是在发泄一些情绪，你知道的？
I was just venting about something, you know?
但总之，不管怎样。
But yeah, so anyways, whatever.
我这个故事讲得有点东一榔头西一棒子的。
I'm all over the place with this story here.
但这就带我们来到了今天。
But that kind of gets us to today.
不，这样挺好。
No, this is good.
你总结了一下。
You recapped it.
是的。
Yeah.
我本来想开个玩笑，说在你的《晨间散步》播客里，我特别喜欢你的环境音效，你如何加入假的脚步声和背景里树叶沙沙作响的声音，因为你说你知道你正对着一些假邻居打招呼。
I was gonna joke that in your Morning Walk Podcast, I love your Foley work and how you insert fake footstep noises and fake leaves rustling in the background because Saying I know you're in some hello to fake neighbors.
没错。
Exactly.
太棒了。
It's great.
你让AI为你工作了。
You got AI working for you.
我想谈几件事。
There's a few things I want to touch on.
我们还要聊聊健身，以及你在播客后半段如何彻底重塑了身体。
We're also going to talk about fitness and how you've really reworked your body in the latter half of the podcast.
但我有几件事想问问，这些年来我听过你多次提到，我想和你一起复盘一下：如果三年前你尝试过这些，作为创始人——或者说是联合创始人，我想你应该是对这件事最了解的人——你觉得这会改变局面吗？
But there's a couple things that I'm wondering, and I've heard you talk about them over the years, I'm wondering if you and I could Monday morning quarterback them and say like, if three years ago you had tried this, do you think as the founder or as a co founder, I guess, and most knowledgeable person on this, do you think this would have changed things or not?
还有几件事。
And there's there's a couple things.
一个是经常性收入。
One is recurring revenue.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我们来聊聊吧。
Let's talk about it.
对。
Yeah.
我听你在播客里提到过，有人给《Start Up To The Rest Of Us》写信说，亚当·瓦坦在谈论这个，我觉得你当时说的是《Hackers Incorporated》
I heard you talk about it on your podcast because someone wrote in to Start Up To The Rest Of Us and said Adam Wathan was talking about this, Hackers Incorporated I think was your
节目。
show.
是的。
Yeah.
你之前谈到过，这种模式不适合采用持续性收入。
And you were talking about how it wouldn't work being recurring.
然后鲁本和我在这里探讨了如何思考这个问题。
And then Ruben and I here answered the question of like, here's how we might think about it.
我们有两三个想法。
We had two or three ideas.
真的吗？
Oh really?
我应该发给你。
I should send it to you.
这可能都是一年前的事了，甚至更久。
It's probably like a year old now, maybe more.
话虽如此，当你发布关于你不得不裁员的那期节目时，我所在的几个私密Slack群组里，一些创始人说：‘真希望她当时收费订阅，我愿意为它支付年费。’
All that said, when you posted the episode about how you had to lay people off, there were some private Slack groups I'm in where founders were like, oh, I wish she just charged a subscription because I would pay a yearly an annual fee for it.
对吧？
Right?
我不是在说。
And I'm not look.
我不是说，只有三个人在Slack群组里这么说，你就该这么做。
I'm not saying that three people saying this in Slack groups means you should have or anything.
但当然，我是个 recurring revenue 的人。
But of course, I'm the recurring revenue guy.
我是说，我确实做过一次性销售的业务。
Like, I believe I've done one time sale businesses.
我曾经做过，也记得那种波动有多大。
I've had them, and I remember how how swingy they were.
你知道的？
You know?
因为在2008年，我的收入从一个月到下个月暴跌了90%，就是因为这不是持续性收入。
Because in the 2,008, I lost 90% of my revenue from one month to the next, and I was it's because it's not recurring.
我记得你提到过，你的收入从峰值下降了大约70%。
I think you've commented that you're down maybe 70% from peak revenue.
我有个想法，我知道这有点棘手，因为你有开发组件，你能不能收费？比如一次性收费300或400美元？
The thought I have, and I know it's dicey because you have it's tricky, because you have a developer component and could you charge because what is it, like 300 or $400 one time?
大概就是这个价格吗？
Is that about what it is?
是的。
Yeah.
问题是，你能不能每年收这笔费用？
Could you charge that the question is, could you charge that every year?
还是说，你一次性收400美元，然后每年再收100或200美元的维护费？
Or would you charge $400 upfront and then charge $100 or $200 a year as a maintenance fee?
类似这样的方式。
Something like that.
回顾四五年之前，你觉得你希望当时已经这么做了吗？
Do you feel like looking back to four or five years, do you wish you'd done that?
或者，你的想法是怎样的？
Or do you I guess, are your thoughts on it?
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
这是个好问题。
It's a good question.
老实说，我不这么认为。
I honestly don't think so.
有些事情我可能会做得不一样。
There's some things that I maybe would have done differently.
我觉得我们从一开始就可以为团队许可证提供订阅服务，这很可能已经足以产生显著的差异，因为我只是不认为企业对一次性付费和订阅制的敏感度，会像个人用户那样高，尤其是如果只是每年收费的话。
I think we probably could have done subscriptions for team licenses from day one, which would have honestly probably been enough to make like a pretty substantial difference because I just don't think businesses are as sensitive to like the one time versus subscription thing, especially if it was just like an annual thing as maybe individuals.
而且我认为这更有理由，因为公司里不断有新人加入、旧人离开，你希望持续为这些人维护访问权限，等等。
And I think there's more justification for it too because you have different people joining the company and leaving the company and you wanna keep maintaining access for those people, whatever.
但当我们选择一次性定价模式时，我们的策略其实是考虑当时产品所传递价值的形式。
But sort of like the the strategy for us when we picked the one time pricing model was it was really thinking about how like value is delivered in the shape of the products at the time.
它是一堆网站模板、组件之类的东西。
It's a bunch of website templates and components and stuff like that.
你可以订阅并下载所有内容，然后取消，却依然保留所有东西，六个月后再回来，再订阅一个月，下载任何新内容，然后离开，你知道的。
And you could subscribe and download everything and then cancel and have everything and then come back six months later, subscribe for one month again and download anything new and then leave, you know.
这感觉和SaaS产品完全不同，SaaS产品是你每天都要登录使用的东西。
And that just felt like it's not the same as like a SaaS product where you're coming in there and using it every single day.
我认为年度订阅或许可行，但我仍然相信，由于没有订阅带来的阻力，我们的转化率要高得多。
I think like an annual subscription could have could have maybe worked, but I also still I still believe that like our conversion rate was a lot higher because there wasn't that like subscription friction.
我们这样想的另一个重要原因是，我不知道Tailwind会流行多久，因为开发者工具总是周期性更替的。
And a big part of our mentality for it too was like, I don't know how long Tailwind is gonna be popular for to have all this developer tooling goes in in cycles.
这真的让人觉得应该抓住当下，尽可能多地为公司积累利润，以防有一天这一切都消失了。
It really feels like capitalize on the moment and basically just like sack away as much profit as we can as a company in case one day this like all goes away.
也许这个决定在某种程度上促成了这样的结果，但与此同时，我也确实从中得到了我想要的东西。
And maybe that decision like contributed to that outcome in some ways, but also at the same time, like I did get what I wanted out of it.
我从未隐瞒过，这个生意对创始人来说做得非常、非常、非常成功，同时给员工提供了极高的薪酬，并创造了一个我认为非常有趣、轻松且令人愉快的工作环境。
I've never like made it a secret that like the business has done really, really, really, really well for the founders while paying people like extremely well and creating, I think a really fun and relaxed and interesting place to work for the people that work here.
但与此同时，即便我已经存够了足够的钱，感觉就像从这家企业中实现了退出，这并不意味着一旦现金流和支出失衡，我们就不得不对公司做出调整——这很让人沮丧，因为显然，你不能用自己的钱去补贴一个自身无法盈利的生意。
But at the same time, like, okay, even if I've put away enough money that it feels like I basically got an exit out of this business in a lot of ways, that doesn't mean that once the cash flow and expense balance is like out of whack, you know, we still have to make changes at the company, which sucks because it doesn't make sense to like, you know, personally like subsidize a business that's like not working on its own, of course.
我认为这是一个普通大众没有经营过企业就很难理解的话题。
And I think that's like a topic that I think like the general public hasn't run a business.
也许他们有点难以共情，但任何我交谈过的创业者都当然能理解：你不会把自己的钱投进一个无法运转的生意里，而这恰恰就是你当时在做的事。
I think maybe does have a little bit of hard time empathizing with, but any business owners I've talked to, of course, like understand that, you know, like you wouldn't invest your own money into a business that's that's not working, which is basically what you'd be doing then.
而且你还在拖着员工，让他们继续留在一个无法持续的公司里工作。
And then you're also stringing people along, like keeping them in a job at a company that isn't working.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
他们本该去寻找其他机会，做点别的事情，对吧？
Like, they should be taking different opportunities and doing something else anyways, you know?
我想我们本必须想办法让产品更像一个订阅服务，才能真正配得上订阅模式。
I guess I believe that we would have had to figure out a way to make it feel more like a subscription product to really justify a subscription.
也许这正是我们当初应该专注的方向。
And maybe that's like what we should have focused on.
我要说的是，我们接下来要做的项目，计划采用订阅制收入。
And I'll say like the next thing that we're working on, you know, we are planning for it to be subscription revenue.
你会很高兴听到这个消息。
You'll be happy to hear.
但说实话，我不确定。
But, yeah, I I don't know.
我想，如果我们回到过去，从一开始就为所有人推出订阅服务，我依然会担心用户流失率过高，就像订阅类教育产品常见的那种流失，我觉得这历来是个非常棘手的问题。
I guess I guess I just feel like if if we went back in time and made a subscription for everyone from the beginning, I still have those same concerns about really high churn, like the sort of churn that people have on like subscription education products, you know, which I think is a historically really challenging thing.
我也觉得，那样的话，我们一路上的总收入可能会更少。
I also just think like we would have just made less total in revenue along the way.
而且，如果我们现在处于这个环境，人们依然选择用AI来生成界面内容而不是付费购买产品，他们迟早还是会取消订阅的，对吧？
And if we found ourselves in this current environment where like people are still choosing to use AI to like generate UI stuff instead of paying for a product, they would have canceled anyways, you know?
所以我显然不可能回去做AB测试。
So I obviously, I can't go back and AB test it.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
但我想我的观点是，我并不真的会后悔，觉得我们犯了错误，因为显然，裁员和收入下滑这种状况很糟糕。
But I guess I guess my point is I I don't really look back with regret as if like we made a mistake because, like, obviously, it sucks to lay people off and be in this like situation where revenue is dropping.
当我真正放眼全局时，我依然觉得这对我来说是个非常不错的结局。
When I really zoom out, I still feel like it's still been a really great outcome for me.
而且我对事情的发展依然心怀感激，你知道吗？
And I'm still really grateful for how things have played out, you know?
所以我也说不准。
So I don't know.
但我真的很想听听你对此的看法。
But I'd be really curious to hear what you think for sure.
嗯，有两点。
Well, Well, there's two things.
你说这对你是很好的结果。
You said it's a great outcome for you.
我反而认为，这对你的团队来说也是一个相当好的结果。
I actually would argue it's been a pretty good outcome for your team.
即使是被裁掉的人，我相信他们的薪资也高于市场水平。
Even those that got laid off were paid, I believe, above market salaries.
而且你还给了他们丰厚的遣散费。
And you gave them generous severance.
是的，被裁员很糟糕，但你照顾了那些人。
Yes, it sucks to be laid off, but you took care of those folks.
对。
Yeah.
让我谈谈订阅的问题。
Let me weigh in on the subscription.
我觉得年付订阅会更有效。
I think an annual subscription would have worked.
这是我的直觉。
That's my gut.
你也这么认为吗？
You think so?
是的。
Yeah.
然后这会给你带来，嗯，它实际会带来的效果。
And then it would have given you well, here's what it would have done.
你说得对。
You're right.
你可能会经历更少的暴利年份，那时候你赚了很多钱。
You would have had probably less of the boom boom years when you were making loads of money.
但我认为这样会更稳定。
But I think it would have been more stable.
它会持续增长、增长、增长、增长，然后也许最终会趋于平稳。
It would have grown, grown, grown, grown, and then maybe if anything, would have plateaued.
这只是经常性收入，尤其是年度收入，其下滑速度远慢于任何一次性收入。
It's just recurring revenue, especially annual, it slides so much slower than any type of one time.
所以你觉得我们当初是否应该采用同样的入门定价，然后每年以相同价格续费，或者可能更低一些？
So do you think we should have just done like the same kind of get your foot in the door price and then either recur at that same price annually or maybe like a lower amount to sort of?
大概就在这个范围内。
Somewhere in there.
我凭直觉可能会觉得，如果 upfront 是 399 美元，只要每年支付 399 美元，你就能一直获得更新和其他服务。
I probably gut feel would have been like, look if it's $399 upfront, you get updates and stuff as long as you pay the $399 every year.
你可以永久使用，但你得不到什么？更新或支持？
You can use it in perpetuity, but you don't get what, updates or support?
通常这正是开源项目所伴随的。
Mean that's usually what comes with an open project.
然后每年每个人都可以重新评估。
And then every year everyone gets to evaluate.
你说得对，我认为你的流失率会比企业级 SaaS 或 Salesforce 高，但我认为它仍然会低很多。
And you're right, I do think your churn would be higher than like enterprise SaaS or Salesforce, but I think it would have been significantly low.
按月收费会是一场灾难。
Monthly would have been a disaster.
我不认为你会选择按月收费。
I don't think you would have done monthly.
是的。
Yeah.
按月收费，我觉得行不通。
Monthly, don't think would have worked.
在我脑子里，我设想的是，如果终身收费是这个价，那么年费就必须低于这个价。
I guess in my head I had it pictured it as like, well, if the lifetime is this, then annual has to be less than that.
而你却在说，情况并非如此，对吧？
And you're kind of saying, not the case, you know?
我非常想知道结果会怎样。
I would be super curious to see.
即使你先收3.99美元，然后每年199美元，这也仍然是个不错的方案。
And even if you were to do a $3.99 upfront and then it's 199 a year, it's still something.
但我不明白你为什么不直接定3.99美元。
But I don't know why you wouldn't just do $3.99.
这可能是我会倾向的选择。
That's probably where I would have leaned.
但另一点是，我想听听你的看法，因为我对这个业务还不够了解：我看到有一些成功案例，只有少数几家微型种子公司专注于开发组件。
But the other thing is, and want to ask your opinion on this because I don't know the business well enough, is one thing I see working, there's only a couple tiny seed companies that are dev components.
可能只有两到四家，数量非常少。
Maybe it's two or four, it's very small.
顺便说一句，它们也正受到人工智能的严重影响，因为当AI能直接写出所有代码时，人们不再考虑单独的组件了。
They're also seeing impact by AI, being heavily impacted by it by the way, because people aren't thinking about a component anymore when AI can just go write all the code as you're seeing.
但它们赚不少钱的一种方式是，它们有200到400美元的开发者套餐，同时还提供每年5到10美元的中端市场套餐，主要面向我们称之为企业的客户。
But one of the ways that they make quite a bit of money is they do have their developer 200 to $400 thing, but then they have their mid market 5 or $10 thing a year that's for we'll call it enterprise.
通常企业级定价在3.5万美元以上，也许你也可以设置这样的方案。
Usually enterprise is more like 35 k and up, and maybe you can have that too.
但即使只是一个5000或10000美元的套餐，也是面向团队的，同时还能提供企业客户在意的额外支持和服务。
But even just a 5 or $10,000 package that is, it's for teams, but it's also when they want more support and they want there's stuff you throw in, right, that enterprises care about.
我认为这些客户的流失率会非常低，这是我的直觉。
And the churn on those, I think, would have been very, very low, would be my gut.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
一旦你进了门，那些合同就会被扔在某个文件夹里积灰。
Once you got in the door there, like those contracts, they collect dust in some folder
确实如此。
They do.
好多年都是这样。
For years.
确实如此。
They do.
而且如果你得走采购流程，那就要定在3.5万美元以上了。
And and if you had to go through procurement, then you make it 35 k and up.
我的意思是，这算是一个经验法则。
I mean, that's kind of a rule of thumb.
但我很好奇，除了因为企业销售并不有趣而不愿这么做之外，
But I'm wondering, aside from just not wanting to do that because enterprise sales is not fun.
对吧？
Right?
还有我，作为一个招聘经理。
And me, a hiring manager.
除了这一点之外
Aside from that
原因嘛，老实说，我们现在在合作伙伴计划中就做了不少这样的事。
reason Well, honestly, we're doing quite a bit of that now with, like, the partner program.
这正是我猜的。
That's what I was guessing.
是的。
Yeah.
我在想，如果你早点这么做，你会希望如此吗？你觉得那样会成功吗？
I was wondering if you if you wished you'd done that earlier, if you think that would have worked.
因为这一直是我的想法：天啊，我觉得这些公司愿意支付的费用远不止每月300美元。
Because that was always something I thought, man, I think these orgs would pay a lot more than 300 a month.
是的。
Yeah.
老实说，我们本该早点这么做的。
We probably should have honestly.
我对自己努力打造一个依靠真实产品利润持续运营的开源项目感到异常自豪，因为这些产品真正提供了实际价值。
I think I took like an irrational amount of pride in trying to build like an open source thing that was sustained on like real profits from making a real product that like delivered actual value.
我讨厌那种感觉——好像我们靠捐款才能维持下去。
And I hated the idea of feeling like we're making it work like on donations, you know.
我希望让人觉得是市场在推动它发展，这或许让我对这一点的看法有了一些改变，因为我认为我们确实为参与我们合作伙伴计划的公司提供了真实价值。
I wanted it to feel like the market was making it work, which I think might have changed my opinion on that a little bit in the sense that I think we are providing real value to the the companies that are part of our our partner program.
是的。
Yeah.
我不认为人们会无缘无故地给别人钱。
I don't think people tend to just, like, give people money for nothing.
你知道的。
You know?
如果他们选择为你提供的东西付钱，那就说明他们看到了其中的价值。
If they're choosing to give you money for what you're offering, then they're seeing value in it.
你知道的。
You know?
无论是他们从网站上获得的曝光，还是能直接联系我们的团队，从而在遇到bug报告之类的问题时能优先得到处理。
Whether that's, like, the exposure that they're getting from the website or just having a more direct connection with our team to kind of like skip the line when they have like bug reports and stuff like that.
而且希望它能持续存在，老兄。
And wanting it to exist, man.
我的意思是，我曾经待过的有些公司，当我们采用一项技术时，比如Sidekick，我们会说：‘我们只能找Mike Perham，他是这个项目的负责人。’
I mean, there are companies I've worked at where when we would implement a technology, Sidekick, for example, we when we were like, we can only give him Mike Perham, who runs it.
对吧？
Right?
我们每个Sidekick实例只能给他一千美元。
We can only give him a thousand dollars per Sidekick instance.
我真的很想更多地支持这个项目，因为我们用了大量的基础设施基于Sidekick。
I was like, I actively want to support this more because we had so much infrastructure built on Sidekick.
我觉得我就是希望这个项目能继续存在。
I think there's that I want this to exist.
我不希望它被废弃。
I don't want it to be abandoned.
Twitter发布了一个UI框架，我们在DRIP也在用，猜怎么着？
Twitter puts out a UI framework and we were using it at DRIP, guess what?
两年后，没人再维护它了。
Two years later, nobody's maintaining it.
对吧？
Right?
所以我觉得它的价值更大。
And so I think there's more value.
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对我来说，这从来不是捐赠。
To me, was never a donation.
首先，我们会获得优先支持。
It's A, we do get priority support.
我记得这一点对我们很重要，因为我们在某个周六遇到过停机或一些故障。
And I remember that being important for us because we had some downtime or some glitches on a Saturday.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，对于像Drip这样的产品，你的提示
I mean, for a product like Drip, your cues
极其重要。
Incredibly important.
这是整个产品最关键的基础架构之一。
That is some of the most critical infrastructure for the whole product.
所以对你来说，想想看，如果有公司愿意支付10美元、35美元，或者任何远高于400美元的金额，我不觉得这是捐赠，老兄。
And so for you, think if there's a company mean, there are companies that want to pay $10 or $35 or whatever the number is that's significantly more than 400, I don't see it as a donation, man.
我觉得这是他们。
I see it as them.
这不仅仅是说，哦，让我们支持这个项目。
And it's not just like, oh, let's support this project.
而是说，不，这个产品至关重要，因为它嵌入在我们的应用程序中，成千上万甚至数万行代码都依赖它，我们希望它能持续存在。
It's like, no, this product is critical because it's in our application and thousands, if not tens of thousands of lines of code, we want it to exist.
所以这正是我原本想表达的意思。
So that's more of what I was thinking.
是的。
Yeah.
很多人也明白这一点，这很好。
And a lot of people see that, which is good.
这就像一份保险，你知道的，我觉得确实如此。
It's like an insurance policy, you know, you know, which I think yeah.
所以我的意思是，很高兴我们最终这么做了。
So I mean, I'm glad like we ultimately did that.
这真的进展得非常好，尤其是那期播客发布后。
That's like worked out really well, especially with that podcast that came out.
这创造了一个完美的契机，让各大杂志开始撰写关于人工智能对我们业务及其他企业影响的文章，现在其他公司也想站在这场公关的正面一方，赞助我们等等。
It just created this perfect storm where we had magazines writing articles about the impact of AI on our business and other businesses now kind of wanting to be on the good side of that PR and sponsoring us and and stuff.
所以，这确实是一个令人欣喜的意外，当然，我们之前就已经做好了所有准备，才能抓住这个机会。
So, that that really was a a welcome surprise, of course, just having all that stuff set up to even be able to take advantage of that moment.
我真的很感激这一切能如此顺利地发展。
So really grateful that that that worked out the way it did for sure.
听到这个真好。
That's great to hear.
我很高兴现在至少有了一个圆满的结局。
I'm glad it's kind of a happy ending for now.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我们现在有一些令人兴奋的东西。
And we've got like stuff that we're excited about now.
我们现在正在开发一个之前提前预告过的用户界面。
Like we're now we're working on we kind of preannounced this like UI.
Sh 是我们现在正在打造的产品，其理念是增强人们已使用的 AI 工具，以生成更好的前端代码和设计，把我们多年来构建产品所积累的经验教给机器人，让你在自己的工作中也能获得这些好处。
Sh is the product that we're trying to build now, which is the idea is to basically augment the AI tooling that people already use to be able to produce better front end code, better design, sort of take all of what we've learned building stuff over the years and sort of teach the robots how to do that so that you can get some of those benefits in the stuff that you're doing.
而且，对我来说，这显然是我们应该去做的方向。
And I I mean, it seems like an obvious thing for us to work on.
当我持续投入一段时间，感觉正在让它运转起来，并掌握了如何让它运作后，这件事显得更加显而易见了。
And it it seems more obvious than ever now that I've been working on it for a while and feel like I'm making it work and know how to make it work.
但 AI 这东西本质上就像一个黑箱，充满了大量的试错，直到你找到那个能让它精准完成你想要任务的‘密钥’，否则你常常会感到困惑：我到底该怎么让它做我想做的事？
But the AI stuff really is such like a black box full of so much trial and error that until you feel like you have the secret passphrase to get it to do exactly what you want, sometimes it feels like how am I supposed to make this thing even even do what I want?
但我相信我们一定会顺利的。
But I think we're gonna be alright for sure.
很高兴听到这个消息。
Glad to hear it.
好吧，我们先结束这个话题，转到创始人健康上。
Well, let's let's wrap up that thread and move on to founder fitness.
谢谢你为我们梳理了这些，兄弟。
Thanks for thanks for talking us through that, man.
我知道这很难。
I know it's it's hard.
这确实可能很难。
It can be hard.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得，谈谈那些不顺利或没成功的事情很重要。
I think, you know, to talk about stuff that isn't working or hasn't worked.
我非常欣赏你在本节目前后展现出的开放与坦诚。
And I appreciate your openness and honesty both before this and on the show.
确实，能有地方聊聊这些事很好，也能有机会和你这样经验丰富的前辈交流，获得一些想法。
It's good to have places to talk about it, honestly, and have opportunity to talk to people with tons of experience like yourself that can help with ideas.
我认为在这些情况下沉默忍受是错误的做法。
I think suffering in silence is the wrong play when you're in these situations.
你需要外部的视角。
You need that outside perspective.
是的。
Yeah.
我很高兴事情最终好转了。
I'm really glad it turned around.
我一直在为你加油。
I was definitely rooting for you.
你的推文帖子收到了很多回复。
There were a lot of replies to your Twitter threads.
我也在其中。
I was in there.
我当时就想，天啊，我希望你能挺过来。
Was like, man, I think you're I hope you pull through.
我们换个项目聊聊创始人和健身吧。
Let's switch it up and talk about founders and fitness.
这完全是彻底转向了。
It's a total right turn.
谈这个要容易多了。
Is so much easier to talk about.
说实话，我觉得你引起我注意的原因，是因为你在你的播客《Hackers Incorporated》（之前的播客）里提到过这件事。
Realistically, the reason you came across my radar I think is because you talked about it on your podcast, Hackers Incorporated, former podcast.
我不知道你现在还做不做这个了。
I don't know that you do it anymore.
但你提到过，你减掉了70磅。
But you talked about it, you lost 70 pounds.
你体脂率降到了大约12%，现在你还坚持卧推315磅吗？
You got to about 12% body fat and you still do you still bench three fifteen?
老兄，那可是相当重的体重啊。
Dude, that's it's a lot of weight.
我仍然能卧推315磅，但我的体脂率已经不是12%了。
I I can still bench three fifteen, but I'm not at 12% body fat.
这没关系，我们并没有对你有这种要求。
Which is fine, we're not holding you to that.
但关键是，你是一位联合创始人，非常重视自己的事业，努力工作，还有家庭，是位父亲，而我们大多数人都在想：怎么才能挤出时间来做这些？
But the idea is that you are a co founder of a business, you care about it lot, you work on it hard, you have a family, you're a dad, and most of us are like, how can we fit this in?
你曾经提到过，你的锻炼时间非常短。
You've talked about having really short workouts.
我想从这一点开始聊，因为我对此最感兴趣——我最近并不喜欢锻炼，但我喜欢保持身材。
And this is the thing I want to start with because I'm most interested in this because I've recently I don't like working out, but I like being in shape.
这就是我的生活方式。
That's just how I work.
有些人真的很享受锻炼，我挺羡慕他们的。
Some people really enjoy working out too, and I envy them.
但我不是这样的人。
That's not me.
所以我最近从做三组 whatever 改为做两组，使用更重的重量做到力竭，不管怎样。
So I've recently dropped from three sets of whatever to I'm doing two sets with higher weights to failure, whatever.
这些都是我在网上听到的，还有我15岁的孩子告诉我该做的，所以我正试着简化。
It's stuff that I've heard on the internet and my 15 year old tells me to do, and so I'm trying to cut it down.
我把它缩短到了大约十二分钟——抱歉，是大约二十分钟。
I've been getting it down about twelve I'm sorry, to about twenty minutes.
对我来说，每周两次，每次三组，已经不错了。
And it's twice a week for me, man, of three.
每周三次是个巨大的进步。
Three is big victory.
但每周两次就已经足够了。
But twice a week is like plenty.
我身高六英尺二英寸，体型很瘦。
I'm six foot two and I'm pretty slender.
我不需要一直锻炼。
It's not like I need to work out all the time.
但你比我更厉害。
But you've one upped me.
你不是只做六分钟腹肌训练，你比我多做了一分钟，因为你有十五分钟的锻炼时间。
You didn't just six minute abs, you seven minute abs to me because you have fifteen minute workout sessions.
是的。
Yeah.
但我现在并不是这样训练的。
So I'm actually not training that way right now.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我可以聊很多不同的内容。
But I can talk about a lot of different stuff.
随时打断我。
So stop me whenever.
我会解释一下我当时在做什么。
But I'll I'll explain sort of what I was doing there.
当我下定决心要减掉大量体重时，因为我当时非常超重。
So when I was like, I really made this commitment to sort of, like, shed a bunch of weight because I was very overweight.
我认为，任何曾经超重的人，每周都会有一天突然意识到：天啊，我必须改变现状了。
I think, like, anyone who's ever been overweight, once a week, they have that day where it's like, man, I I gotta turn this around.
我必须得锻炼起来，诸如此类。
I gotta, like, get in shape, whatever.
而我当时启动这个过程的关键方法是，我知道我需要找到一种方式，让自己真正为这件事花钱。
And for me, how I, like, got that process started at the time that really made it happen was I knew, like, I need to find some way to basically, like, be spending money on this.
所以我认真对待这件事。
So I I'm taking it seriously.
我知道很多人通常是怎么做的。
Like, I know, like, what a lot of people do.
很多难以去健身房的人，会选择报名健身房的课程或团体课程，因为这样会把时间安排进日程。
Like, a lot of people who have a hard time going to the gym, like signing up for, like, classes at the gym or, like, group classes because it goes in your calendar.
这不再是那种‘我觉得周二下午可以去健身房，锻炼一小时左右’之类随性的事情。
And it's not just, like, something that you're gonna make time for, like, oh, I think Tuesday afternoon, like, I'm gonna go to the gym and get in an hour or whatever.
这就像是在日历上安排了一次牙医预约一样。
It's like, it's on your calendar like a dentist appointment.
对很多人来说，这已经足够让他们去做了。
And for a lot of people, like, that's that's enough to, like, get them to kind of go.
对吧？
Right?
我也想为健康饮食、更好地控制食量这些事情找到类似的方法。
And I I wanted sort of the same thing for sort of just like eating healthier and controlling my portions better and all this stuff.
因为最终，减肥说到底就是这些事。
Because ultimately, that's like what losing weight comes down to.
光靠锻炼很难把多余的体重减掉。
It's hard to just exercise that away.
很多问题在于改变不良习惯和不良关系。
A lot of that is changing bad habits and bad relationships.
你和食物之间有着各种关系。
You have food and stuff.
所以我找到了一个叫 My Body Tutor 的服务，每月收费几百美元，你会有一位教练，每周和你进行一次电话沟通，但他们每天还会给你发短信。
So I found this service called My Body Tutor, where it was like a couple $100 a month, and you worked with a coach who would basically you do a phone call once a week, but they would also like text you every single day.
你每天结束时必须填写一份日志，发给他们，比如今天每顿饭的照片都拍下来。
And you had to fill out like a log at the end of the day and send it to them with like, here's a picture of every meal I had today.
还有一堆非常有趣的问题，比如你睡得怎么样？
A bunch of like really interesting questions, like how well did you sleep?
里面还包括感恩日记的内容。
There's like gratitude journaling in there.
还有很多其他内容，所有这些结合起来，能帮助你培养更积极健康的心态，并维持这些习惯。
There's a lot of stuff that's just like all kind of comes together to sort of get you into like a more positive healthy mindset and helps you sort of maintain these habits.
对我来说，就是这么简单：好吧。
And for me, it was just like, okay.
如果我每天都要给一个我不认识的人发我吃的东西的照片，还要每月花几百美元，
If I need to like send pictures of like what I'm eating to someone who I don't know every single day and I'm spending like a couple $100 a month on it.
我希望这样能足够让我行动起来。
My hope is that that's gonna be enough to like get my ass in gear.
从这个角度看，它对我来说效果非常好，因为很难给一位身材健美的健身教练发一张你在Dairy Queen吃冰淇淋的暴风雪照片，还不会觉得自己像个傻瓜。
And it worked really well for me in that sense because it's really hard to send a picture of like a blizzard from Dairy Queen to some like really in shape fitness coach, you know, that you're working with, and not feel like an idiot.
所以，这对我来说是第一步，真正帮助我养成了这个习惯。
So that was sort of like the first step for me that really helped me sort of like get into that habit.
一旦你建立了这种连续性，就更容易想：好吧，我过去两周都吃得很好，而且一直控制在卡路里预算内。
And once you sort of have that chain going, it's a lot easier to be like, okay, well, I've eaten like well and it stuck to my like calorie budget for the last two weeks.
我今天真的想把这一切都毁掉吗？
Do I wanna throw that away today?
你知道的？
You know?
这就像是杰瑞·塞infeld那个‘别打断链条’的理论，你知道吧？
It's like that Jerry Seinfeld don't break the chain thing, you know?
所以，这基本上就是对我来说真正有效的方法的总结。
So that's like the summary of really like what worked well for me there.
当然，还有很多不同的策略可以帮你更好地管理饮食，比如吃得特别特别慢，每吃一口就喝一口水。
And of course, there's like a lot of different strategies that you can actually implement to do better like with your eating like things like eat super, super slow, take a drink of water between like every bite.
吃饭时什么都不要做。
Don't do anything while you're eating.
让吃饭变得尽可能无聊，这样你就会想尽快吃完，回去做你原来在做的事。
Make eating as boring as possible so you don't so you want to be done with it and get back to what you were doing.
如果你坐着吃饭时还刷手机，就更容易吃得多，因为你被分散了注意力。
If you're sitting there like eating lunch and like browsing your phone, it's way easier to like eat more because you're sort of entertained.
但如果只是我跟这盘食物在一起，我只想赶紧吃完，好回去继续我那个有趣的项目，你知道吧？
But if it's like, no, it's just me and this plate, and I just want this to be over with because I wanna get back to those interesting project I was working on, you know?
是的。
Yeah.
你往往会吃得少一些。
You tend to not eat as much.
但说到锻炼，我过去经常做大量的力量训练，因为我曾经参加过力量举比赛。
But when it comes to the workouts, historically, I've done like a lot of heavy weight training because I used to compete in power lifting.
而我之所以开始接触锻炼，是因为尝试了多种不同的方式来开始锻炼。
And I kind of got into that because through a bunch of different attempts at getting into like working out.
我觉得大多数人开始锻炼是因为想看起来更好。
I think like most people like get into working out because they want to look better.
你知道，我觉得这通常是人们锻炼的原因。
You know, I think that's generally why people do it.
但在外貌上看到改善需要很长时间。
And it takes a lot of time to see visual improvements there.
所以很难保持动力坚持下去。
So it can be hard to sort of stay motivated to stick with it.
但我后来逐渐转向力量训练，不再只是为了看起来更好而锻炼。
But then I sort of got into into strength training over just like working out to look better.
现在你每天都会记录，比如今天做了多少次重复，举起了多重的重量。
And now you're like keeping track every day of like, okay, I did this many reps, I lifted this much weight.
你可以真正看到日复一日、周复一周的进步。
And you can actually see improvements there like day to day, week to week.
这其实非常有激励作用，因为你可以看到，比如上周我卧推185磅做了10次，这周我做到了11次。
And that's actually really motivating because you can see, okay, well, I benched one eighty five for 10 reps last week, and this week I got it for 11.
你知道，这真的很棒。
You know, it's like, yeah, this is awesome.
我正在取得进步。
I'm making progress.
你不知不觉就会上瘾。
You sort of get addicted to it.
因为这种反馈周期比每天拍照、 hoping 你开始看起来长了点肌肉要短得多，而那可能需要几个月、几年甚至更久。
Because like that feedback cycle is so much shorter versus like taking pictures every day and like hoping that you start to look like you've put on some muscle or something because that could take months and months and years and years really.
对吧？
Right?
我真的爱上了这种感觉。
I just really got into that.
我对大多数事情都倾向于走极端，而去健身房进行力量训练的极端版本就是参加力量举比赛，努力举起比别人更重的重量。
And like, I've sort of an extreme person with like most things that I do and sort of like the extreme version of going to the gym and doing strength training is like competing in power lifting and trying to like lift more than everybody else and lift as heavy as you can.
所以我后来就投身其中了。
So I kind of got into that.
但这种训练方式在我试图减掉大量体重时并不太有效，因为不管你有没有健身经验，只要你是在减重，你在健身房的力量肯定会下降，因为你的身体没有以前那么多能量了，而且你的身体也不是那种能只燃烧脂肪、完全不损失任何瘦体重或肌肉的完美高效机器。
But that form of training like didn't really work well when I was trying to cut down a bunch of weight because no matter what, unless like you've never been to the gym, if you're trying to lose weight, like you're gonna get weaker in the gym because your body doesn't have as much fuel as it did before and your body isn't this perfectly efficient machine that can burn only fat and not lose like any lean body mass or any muscle or anything.
所以如果我继续尝试深蹲、卧推这些大重量训练，我的成绩肯定会下滑，我担心这会打击我的兴奋感和动力。
So if I was going trying to squat heavy and bench heavy and whatever at the gym, like my numbers were gonna go down and I worried that that was gonna sort of like hurt my excitement and motivation.
因此，我想重新调整我的训练方式，让减重和燃脂的过程本身能提升我在训练中的表现。
So I wanted to restructure my workouts into something that felt like getting lighter and losing fat was going to like make my performance at those workouts better.
于是我开始做负重背心循环训练，这个方法是我从吉姆·温德勒那里学来的，任何对力量举有所了解的人都知道这个人，他是一位资深且广为人知的力量教练。
So I started doing these, weighted vest circuits, and it's something I picked up from this guy, Jim Wendler, who's like a anyone who's, like, been into powerlifting will know who this guy is, but he's just like a really longtime well known, like, strength coach guy.
我多年来一直阅读他的内容，他也提到过这种训练方式。
And I I've read his stuff for years and he talked about doing this stuff.
基本上，我只是戴上一个20磅的负重背心，然后做三到五组循环训练，包括平板支撑——我加入这个动作是因为多年来我背部受过多次伤，发现这对我特别有帮助。
And basically, I just threw on like a 20 pound weighted vest and I would do like three to five rounds of a circuit where I was doing like some planks, which I incorporated because I've had a lot of back injuries over the years and I found that kind of really fixed that for me.
然后是负重俯卧撑或负重双杠臂屈伸，再配合负重背心做自重深蹲，或者手持壶铃之类的动作。
And then like weighted push ups or weighted dips with the weight vest and then just body weight squats with the weight vest or maybe holding a kettlebell or something like that.
最后是引体向上，如果你能做的话——我知道不是每个人都能做到，尤其是戴着负重背心的时候。
And then like chin ups if you can do them, which I know not everyone can, especially with the weighted vest.
但我通常会做15个深蹲，手里拿着壶铃再加上负重背心，10个俯卧撑，然后做5个引体向上。
But I would do like say 15 squats with like a kettlebell plus the weight vest, 10 push ups, and then like five chin ups.
我会重复做三到五组这样的训练。
And I would do three to five rounds of that.
好处是，当你变轻了，所有这些动作都会变得更容易，这意味着你可以更快地完成整个训练。
And the nice thing was like as you get like lighter, all those movements get easier, which means you can sort of complete it in a faster time.
所以我一直在记录完成这套训练所花的时间，一开始五组要花十五到十七分钟，后来逐渐缩短到八到九分钟就能完成五组。
So I was like tracking the time that was taking me to do this and it just maybe taking me like fifteen to seventeen minutes to do five rounds and eventually got that down to like eight or nine minutes to get through five rounds.
我每天早上都会穿着负重背心带狗散步三十分钟，然后直接去车库的健身房做这套训练。
And I would just go for a walk with the dog in the morning for like thirty minutes with the weight vest on and then just go straight to the garage to the gym after and do that workout.
我每周都会这样练五天。
And I would do that like five days a week.
说实话，我觉得自己从未像现在这样在做这些训练时感觉这么好。
And I felt like honestly, like I've I felt better than like I've ever felt in my life like doing those workouts.
这套训练的强度没那么大，我认为你不可能像做深蹲这类大重量训练那样长出那么多肌肉。
And it's not as heavy, and I don't think you're gonna build as much muscle as you're gonna build doing like heavy squats and and stuff like that.
但你可以通过尝试提高动作速度来让自己更难一些，比如做俯卧撑时。
But you can make it harder for yourself just by just like trying to increase the the velocity, for example, that you're doing a push up.
比如，如果你以一种舒适的节奏将自己推起来， versus 试着尽全力快速弹起，就能让一组10个俯卧撑变得难得多。
Like, if you push yourself up, like, kind of at like a comfortable pace versus like, try to really throw yourself up as hard as you can, you can make like a set of 10 push ups like way harder.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
如果你真想挑战，还可以增加到十组左右。
And you can increase it to up to 10 rounds or something if if you really wanted to.
但我发现，对我来说，最合适的组数是三到五组，具体取决于那天我有多少时间。
But I found like for me, the sweet spot was like three to five depending on how much time I had that day.
也许在最后一组时，我会多做几个每个动作的重复次数，努力让肌肉充分充血，你知道的。
And maybe on the last round, would do like more reps of each exercise and just really try to get like a pump or something, know.
这真的太棒了。
It was really awesome.
而且我觉得它也显著提升了我的心肺功能，而不需要做那种传统又枯燥的有氧运动。
And I felt like it really improved my cardio too without having to do like kind of more traditional boring cardio.
我觉得 anyway 很无聊。
Like, I find it boring anyways.
所以是的，这对我来说特别有效，因为它契合了我减重的目标。
So yeah, like that really worked well for me because it worked with the the weight loss goal that I had.
它让锻炼保持得又短又好。
It kept the workouts nice and short.
而且这些锻炼并不是那种会让你特别酸痛的高强度训练。
And they're not like super intense workouts that you get super sore from.
所以你可以每天坚持做，这有助于培养习惯。
So you can kind of do it every single day, which is good for kind of building that habit.
饮食方面也是同样的道理。
Same with like the eating.
它太简单了，而且真的非常适合我。
It's so simple and it just it worked really well for me.
我喜欢它的一点是，它彻底解决了‘我没时间’这个问题。
What I like about it is it crushes the I don't have time piece.
因为对我来说，总是没时间花一个小时去做这些事。
Because that's always for me is I don't have time to do this for an hour or whatever.
我们家楼上有个屋顶露台，那里放着一些哑铃。
We have dumbbells up in the we have a rooftop deck and there's an area there where we have dumbbells.
现在和我一起住的有三个人，我们有一个15岁的孩子，还有谢丽和我，我们共用这些哑铃。
And the three of us who live here now, because we have a 15 year old and Sherry and I, we share them.
我没有负重背心，但我做类似的循环训练，只是会喘得厉害。
And so I don't have a weighted vest, but I do similar circuit workouts that are just and I'm breathing heavy.
而且，当我练到大约二十分钟时，我通常会想：天啊，我真的练够了。
And again, by the time I get to about twenty minutes, I'm usually like, man, I'm so done with this.
我总是为此感到内疚，因为我以前常常看。
And I always feel guilty about that because I used to look.
在高中和大学时，我是个运动员。
When I was in high school and college, I was an athlete.
我练过田径，也踢过橄榄球。
I ran track, played football.
而且，我的意思是，我以前会连续锻炼两小时，每周四到五天，交替练腿部和其他部位。
And, I mean, I'd work out two straight hours, like, four days four or five days a week, alternating legs and everything.
但我现在根本不可能那样做了，所以我总觉得自己是个失败者。
And I'm just there's just no chance I'm gonna do that, and so I always feel like a failure.
所以这让我感觉好了一点，因为我对自己的结果很满意。
So it kinda it kinda made me feel a little better of like because I'm I'm fine with my results.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
就像，我不喜欢锻炼，但我喜欢保持身材，因为我喜欢那种感觉。
Like, I feel I again, I don't like working out, but I like being in shape just because I like feeling that.
所以我觉得这真的很有趣，因为我还没听过别人谈论这种锻炼方式——你的意思是，你只做八到十二分钟的锻炼，这真的很了不起。
So I find it really fascinating because I haven't heard anyone else talk about doing I mean, you're talking about doing an eight eight to twelve minute workout, and that's pretty amazing.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得在这方面，二八法则确实很有效，你能在更短的时间内获得比人们想象中多得多的成果。
I I I do think, like, the eighty twenty on that stuff is a lot you can get a lot more results in a lot less time than I think people think they need.
而且这种锻炼方式也不需要去健身房。
And and that type of workout too, you just you don't need to go to gym to do that.
你不需要任何设备，除了引体向上之类的，你知道的，但你可以找到一些方法，比如买一个门框式引体向上杆，架在门框上，如果力量不够做不了引体向上，还可以绑一条阻力带帮忙减轻难度。
You don't need, like, any any equipment except for, like, chin ups or something, you know, but you can find some I mean, you can get a doorway chin up bar that you can put, like, over the trim and and throw like a like a resistance band around it or something if you're not strong enough to do a chin up to make it a little bit easier.
基本上，你真的只需要这些就够了，你知道的。
And, like, that's basically all you really need, you know.
你这么做不可能练成职业健美选手那样的身材，但只要你坚持下去，就能跻身前1%，你知道的。
Like, you're not gonna get into, like, competitive bodybuilder physique or anything doing that, but you're going to be in the 1%, you know, if you're consistent with it.
塑形对你来说，有没有让你成为一个更好的创始人？
Did getting in shape do you feel like it made you a better founder?
你有没有注意到自己的精力或决策能力有了变化？
Like, did you notice a difference in your energy or your decision making?
你应对压力的方式有改变吗？
How you handled stress?
这是个好问题。
That's a good question.
这有点复杂。
It's a little tricky.
我认为总体上是的。
I think yes, overall.
但我要补充的是，在我生命中的那个特定时期，我过于专注于减掉所有体重和塑形，以至于实际上很难像投入健康目标那样给予事业足够的关注。
But I'll caveat that by saying at that specific time period in my life, I was so focused on dropping all that weight and getting in shape that it actually made it hard for me to give the business as much attention as I was just giving that mission of just trying to fix my health.
对我来说，我一生都在与饮食问题作斗争。
For me, like I've always struggled with eating my whole life.
因此，所需的那种自律和意志力确实严重消耗了我的精力。
So the amount of discipline and sort of willpower that it took really sort of drained my battery personally.
所以这其中包含两个方面。
So there was kind of two elements to it there.
我确实睡得更好了。
Like I definitely I slept better.
我感觉更好了。
I felt better.
我确实更有精力了，我相信这一切都对我有好处。
I definitely had more energy, and I'm sure all that was good for me.
但说实话，对我个人而言，那时这变成了我的一种执念。
But, yeah, to be perfectly honest, for me specifically, that became like my obsession at that at that time.
我不认为别人也必须这样，但我当时遇到了问题，迫切需要集中精力解决它，于是这就成了我当时的主要关注点。
I don't think it needs to be that way for people, but I was in a situation where I just had a problem and I just really needed to focus on solving it and that became sort of my focus at that time.
那么我们先总结一下这个话题，然后我就让你走吧。
So wrapping us up on this topic and then I'll let you go.
你提到了几次，你不再做那种锻炼方式了。
You've mentioned a couple times that you no longer do that workout style.
你已经改变了。
You've changed.
你现在在做什么？为什么？
What are you doing now and why?
主要是因为，偶尔尝试点新东西感觉挺好的。
Mostly out of just like, it's nice to do something new once in a while.
但现在我的商业伙伴史蒂夫每周有三天来我家和我一起工作。
But now my business partner Steve works with me at my house like three days a week.
这是我们大概在去年年中或年初开始的做法。
That's something we started doing at the maybe mid last year or early last year.
我在家布置了一个很棒的健身房，他喜欢锻炼，但自己很难坚持下去。
And I have a really nice gym set up at home and he likes to train, but doesn't do a good job of sticking to it by himself.
所以现在他和我一起工作时，我们会下到地下室，在设备齐全的健身房里，每周两到三次进行一小时的真正力量训练，使用杠铃等器械。
So now that he works here with me, me and him will go down to the basement and work out in the nice gym doing real weight training with barbells and stuff for an hour, two or three times a week.
因为我们是一起做的，感觉时间很充裕，而且整个过程中我们都在聊工作。
And it feels like we have the time for it because we're down there doing it together and we talk shop the whole time.
我觉得我们俩都能从这些锻炼中获得很多新想法。
And I think both of us end up coming away from that with lots of new ideas and stuff.
这从来不会让我们觉得是在硬挤时间去做这件事。
It never feels like something that we're trying to make time for.
所以我们某种程度上又回到了那种训练方式。
So we've kind of transitioned back to sort of that type of training.
我觉得我自己确实很难坚持锻炼。
And I think like, I do have a hard time doing it by myself.
我想这也是我想给任何想锻炼的人的另一个建议，这和参加课程有点类似。
I think like that's the other tip that I would give anyone who's trying to like, it's similar to doing a class.
如果你能找到一个训练伙伴，你们俩可能某天都不想锻炼。
If you can find like a training partner, both of you might not feel like working out that day.
但除非你们俩都说出来，否则你们都会觉得对方期待你到场，明白我的意思吗？
But unless both of you come out and say it, you're gonna expect that the other person's expecting you to be there and say, you know what I mean?
所以这种相互监督，我觉得真的很有帮助。
So that accountability, I think, I think really helps.
而且也让我觉得，我不知道，也许不是每个人都这样，但我发现有人陪着聊天，确实有趣多了，就像那样。
And also just like makes it I don't know, maybe not everyone's this way, but I just find it so much more fun to just have someone to to chat with and to sort of yeah.
这会营造出一点点竞争的氛围。
It just it it like a little bit of a competitive atmosphere.
并不是说你们在互相竞争，而是就像有人在旁边看着你一样。
Not that you're competing with each other, but it's almost like someone's there like watching you.
你希望好好努力，因为有人在看着你，你知道的？
You want to like put in some good work because like someone's sort of observing you, you know?
而且你也想这么做。
And you want yeah.
所以我觉得这对我们来说非常关键。
So I think that's been huge for us.
能和你的联合创始人一起锻炼，真是太棒了。
It's just like being able to actually work out with your co founder is awesome.
是的。
Yeah.
完全没错。
Totally.
你们有这种条件真不错。
That's a nice luxury you guys have.
你们住得够近。
You live close enough.
嘿，老兄，非常感谢你终于来参加这个节目。
Well, man, thanks so much for finally coming on the show.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
谢谢你的邀请。
Thanks for having me.
大家想在X上关注你。
Folks wanna keep up with you on X.
你是亚当·瓦坦，w a t h a n。
You are Adam Wathan, w a t h a n.
当然，如果他们想在不离开HTML的情况下快速构建现代网站，请访问tailwindcss.com。
And of course, if they wanna rapidly build modern websites without ever leaving their HTML, tailwindcss.com.
现在甚至不用离开终端。
And without ever leaving your terminal now.
就是这样。
That's what it is.
这是H1，我只是在读一下。
That's for H1, I'm just reading it.
再次感谢你来参加我的节目，老兄。
Thanks again for joining me, man.
太棒了。
Awesome.
谢谢，罗布。
Thanks, Rob.
再次感谢亚当抽出他繁忙的日程来参加节目，与我们分享他的经历。
Thanks again to Adam for taking time out of his busy schedule to come on the show and tell us about his experiences.
无论是个人成长，还是Tailwind Labs不得不做出裁员的艰难决定，以及他过去几年如何保持健康。
Both growing, Tailwind Labs having to make the hard decision of letting some of his people go, and about how he's been staying in shape these past couple years.
感谢你本周以及每一周的收听。
Thanks to you for listening this week and every week.
我是罗布·沃林，为您播报第825期节目。
This is Rob Walling signing off from episode 825.
就像披头士乐队《Abbey Road》专辑末尾的隐藏曲目《Her Majesty》一样，这段内容也是本期《给普通人的创业故事》的隐藏彩蛋。
Much like the track Her Majesty by the Beatles, the hidden track at the end of Abbey Road, this is the hidden track of this episode of Startups for the Rest of Us.
在这段里，我突然向亚当·瓦坦抛出了一些 trivia 问题。
In it, I ambush Adam Wathan with trivia questions.
我选了一个我不确定他是否了解的主题。
Five of And I've picked a topic that I don't know if he knows anything about.
但我让查德·奇皮·蒂帮我准备了10个 trivia 问题。
But I asked Chad Chippy Tee to give me 10 trivia questions.
我们只做其中五个。
We're only gonna do five of them.
我会自己挑选它们。
I'm gonna pick them.
关于 Tailwind CSS 的问题。
About Tailwind CSS.
哦，天啊。
Oh, God.
好吧。
Alright.
我非常感兴趣。
I am fascinated.
我也是。
Me too.
我很好奇。
I'm fascinated.
有时候GPT会冒出一些莫名其妙的东西，让人想：这到底是什么？
Well, sometimes GPT pulls out such random crap that it's like, what is this?
你懂我的意思吧？
Or you know what I mean?
它能变得如此详细。
It can go so detailed.
但我问它的时候，通常我会选难度一到十，十个问题，然后我慢慢挑，最后一个难度是十。
But I asked it for difficulty normally I go difficulty one to ten, ten questions, and then I kind of pick through and the last one is a 10.
我说难度三到十，因为我不想有任何送分题。
I said difficulty three to 10 because I didn't want any gimmies.
你那边有送分题吗？
Any gimmies for you?
好的。
Okay.
没有，没问题。
No, all right.
它可能会问：提交哈希值是
It's gonna be like, what is the commit hash of the
九，完全对。
nine Totally.
一百，然后你就会说：9A4B。
100 And you're like 9A4B.
我知道这个。
I know this.
我手腕上有两个。
Got two on my wrist.
好吧，我们开始吧。
All right, let's go.
我用这个套路 ambush 过很多人。
I have ambushed many a person with this.
我总是挑那些我感到自在、喜欢、并且当面见过的人。
It's always people I feel comfortable with, that I like, that I've met in person.
所以我希望你能把它看作是一种荣幸，而不是我故意使坏。
And so I hope you consider it a privilege and not a dick move by me.
好吧。
All right.
第一个问题，难度三级。
First question, difficulty three.
如果你说这些是错的，那就是另一回事了。
And if you say these are wrong, that's the other thing.
ChatGPT 可能只是错了。
There's a chance that ChatGPT is just wrong.
所以这会很有趣。
So it'll be interesting.
Tailwind CSS 与传统 CSS 框架（如 Bootstrap）的核心理念有何不同？
What core philosophy differentiates Tailwind CSS from traditional CSS frameworks like Bootstrap?
我不知道该怎么给出正确答案，但我会说，核心理念是高度依赖表现类，直接在标记中用细粒度的工具类来构建元素。
I don't know how you give a correct answer to this, but I would identify I would say the core philosophy is heavy reliance on presentational classes and building things out of tiny utility classes directly in your markup.
这正是 ChatGPT 所说的。
That's what chat chat GPC says.
它是一个工具优先的框架，而不是预设组件。
It's a utility first framework instead of built components.
它提供底层的工具类。
It provides low level utility classes.
不错。
Nice.
难度四。
Difficulty four.
配置？哦，所以你是一对一。
What config oh, so you're one one for one.
通常使用什么配置文件来自定义 Tailwind 项目的设计系统、颜色、间距和断点？
What configuration file is typically used to customize a Tailwind project's design system, color spacing, and break points?
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
在2025年1月之前，这会是你的 tailwind.config.js 文件，或者 tailwind.config.ts 文件，或者其他类似文件。
So prior to January 2025, this would be your tailwind dot config dot j s file or tailwind dot config dot t s or whatever.
但如今，你可以在一个 CSS 文件中配置 Tailwind，文件名可以任意命名。
But nowadays, you configure Tailwind in a CSS file, which can be named whatever you want.
就看你决定把你的CSS文件叫什么名字。
It's just like whatever you decide to call your CSS file.
老兄，这回答太棒了。
Dude, that's a great answer.
ChatGPT只会说tailwind.config。
ChatGPT just says tailwind dot config.
js。
Js.
所以你答对了。
So you nailed it.
你给出了加分答案。
You gave the bonus answer.
你就像个get current。
You're like a get current.
get current。
Get current.
两对两，兄弟。
Two for two, man.
好的。
Alright.
Tailwind 2.1 引入了什么功能，允许开发者直接在方括号内写入任意值？
What feature introduced in Tailwind 2.1 allowed developers to write arbitrary values directly inside square brackets?
比如 top-[117px]。
Like top dash square bracket 117 pixels.
所以有两个可能的答案。
So there's two possible answers.
一个是这个功能本身，叫做任意值支持。
One is just the feature which is called arbitrary value support.
但实现它的关键是我们的即时编译引擎。
But the thing that enabled it was our just in time engine.
完美。
Perfect.
没错，答案就是通过 JIT 引擎实现的任意值支持。
That's the exact its answer is arbitrary value support via the JIT engine.
好的。
Okay.
就是这样。
There you go.
老兄，你简直就像知道得一清二楚，好像这都是我搞出来的似的。
Dude, it's like you know It's like I made it.
你好像对这一切都了如指掌。
It's like you know everything about this.
好吧。
Okay.
所以最后两个，我要挑战难度九和难度十了。
So for the last two, I'm gonna go to difficulty nine and difficulty 10.
我们要上大招了，因为这些题也太简单了。
We're gonna go nuclear because these feel way too easy.
我们来看看能不能替你。
And we'll see if we can sub you.
在 Tailwind 中，CSS 文件里使用哪个指令来注入基础样式、组件和工具类？
In Tailwind, what directive is used inside a CSS file to inject base styles, components, and utilities.
所以是 Tailwind 基础样式、Tailwind 组件和 Tailwind 工具类。
So it's Tailwind base, Tailwind components, and Tailwind utilities.
但在最新版本中，这也不完全准确。
But that's also not really true in the latest version.
在 ChatGPT 的世界里，确实是这样的。
In the chattypieces world, that's true.
我太喜欢这个了。
I love this.
你简直太到位了，兄弟。
You are nailing this dude.
你觉得这看起来像难度九吗？
Did you does that seem like a difficulty nine to you?
这看起来挺简单的。
That seems pretty simple.
这就像入门文档里的内容。
That's like a getting started documentation thing.
你需要输入这个才能让它工作。
Like you need to type that to make it work.
是的。
Yeah.
我不知道查德，GPT快把我逼疯了。
I don't know what Chad, gbt killing me.
哦，这个挺有意思的。
Oh, that one's interesting.
Tailwind 做了什么有争议的设计决策，让许多早期批评者反对？
What controversial design decision did Tailwind embrace that many early critics objected to?
是泛指这种工具类类名的做法吗？
Is it just the utility class thing in general?
你知道吗，我觉得那正是人们真正觉得问题所在的地方——不够语义化。
You know, like, I think that was the thing that people really just it's not semantic.
它不符合可维护性的关注点分离原则。
It's not gonna be maintainable separation of concerns.
这些通常是人们会提到的术语。
These are the terms that would be thrown around generally.
就是这样。
That's it.
写大量的类名。
Writing lots of the answer.
直接在 HTML 标记中写大量工具类，认为难看的标记总比在单独的 CSS 文件中切换上下文、处理命名抽象要好。
Writing lots of utility classes directly in HTML markup arguing that ugly markup preferable to context switching into separate CSS files and dealing with naming abstractions.
天哪。
Dude.
就没有更难的了吗？
There's no harder ones?
在 Tailwind 3.0 及更高版本中，tailwind.config.js 中的 content 字段有什么作用？
In Tailwind version three and later, what is the purpose of the content key in Tailwind dot config.
js？
Js?
它取代了早期版本中的什么问题？
And what problem did it replace from earlier versions?
我不太清楚，好吧。
I don't know that ever Okay.
content 字段用于指定项目中所有可能包含 Tailwind 类的文件路径，以便我们扫描这些文件，确定你实际使用的工具类。
So the content key is where you specify all the paths to all of the files in your project that may contain Tailwind classes that we need to scan through to figure out what utility classes that you're using.
但这个功能是在 2.1 版本引入的，而不是 3.0。
But that was introduced in v2.1, not v3.
而它解决的问题是，这让 Tailwind 能够只生成尽可能小的输出，而不是像以前那样生成一个包含框架中所有可能工具类的多兆字节 CSS 文件，那样会严重拖慢开发速度和浏览器中开发工具的性能，所以
And the problem that it just I mean, that's the thing that makes it possible for Tailwind to just like produce the smallest possible output instead of being like a multi megabyte CSS file that contains every single utility possible in the framework, which really slowed down the development speed and dev tools performance in browsers So
是的，你说到点子上了。
yeah, you nailed that.
它说这取代了 V2 及更早版本中的 purge 配置。
And it says it replaces the old purge configuration from V2 and earlier.
这是真的吗？
Is that true?
是真的。
That's true.
其实确实是这样。
That's true, actually.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
All right.
我会把所有东西都给你。
I'd give you everything.
如果我问过它取代了什么？
If I had said what did it replace?
我觉得你本来是可以做到的。
Think you would have gotten to it.
不，你确实说过。
No, you did say that.
我 literally 忘了之前它叫这个名字。
And I literally forgot that that was called that before.
这很好。
That's good.
我觉得我们再试一次吧。
I think let's try one more.
为什么不能在每个可能的 Tailwind 工具类上使用 apply 呢？
Why can't you use at apply with every possible tailwind utility?
比如一些响应式或伪类变体。
For example, some responsive or pseudo class variants.
根本的限制是什么？
What's the underlying limitation?
老兄，这个问题太过时了。
Dude, that's a super dated question.
是的，你可以。
Yeah, you can.
看吧，我放弃了。
See, I give up.
我们放弃了。
We give up.
就这样吧。
That's it.
哦，我喜欢这个家伙。
Oh, I love this dude.
我觉得你可能是七战七胜之类的。
I think you're like seven out of seven or something like that.
恭喜。
Congratulations.
嗯，那个《大清除》的，我对自己选了《大清除》感到挺丢脸的。
Well, the Purge one, I feel a pretty shame on getting the Purge.
你就像在这次测验里只得了A-。
You're like, I only get maybe an A minus on this test.
不。
No.
太棒了，伙计。
That was great, dude.
谢谢你的配合。
Thanks for playing along.
你的奖品马上寄出。
Your prize is in the mail.
酷。
Cool.
好吧。
All right.
谢谢，兄弟。
Thanks, man.
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