Episode 826 | How to Find, Hire, and Work with Owner-Level Thinkers

当我刚踏入职场时，我只是一个专注于任务层面的思考者。

When I first started my career, I was a task level thinker.

我根本无法同时处理多件事。

I just couldn't do multiple things at once.

我无法分清优先级。

I couldn't prioritize.

我无法妥善管理。

I couldn't manage it.

我无法让所有事情同时顺利进行。

I couldn't keep all the plates spinning.

在最初的五六年左右，我记得自己逐渐变得非常擅长管理项目。

And then over the course of the first five ish, six ish years, I remember getting to the point where I was really comfortable running projects.

我认为在那时，我已经成为了一个扎实的项目层面思考者。

And I think I became a solid project level thinker at that point.

当我开始尝试成为创业者时，我还不是一个具备主人思维的人，因为我需要太多的确定性。

And then as I dipped my toe into becoming an entrepreneur, I wasn't an owner level thinker because I needed too much certainty.

我无法在信息不完整的情况下做出艰难的决定。

I couldn't make hard decisions with incomplete information.

我不知道该怎么做到这一点。

I didn't know how to do that.

又过了五到八年，我才真正融入其中，对自己的能力充满信心，信任我的创业者直觉，并培养出这种直觉，从而能够做出明智的决策——因为这正是成为所有者级思考者所必需的。

And then it took me another five to eight years to really feel into it and to be confident in my own ability, to trust my founder gut, and to develop my founder gut to the point where I was making good decisions because that's what being an owner level thinker requires.

欢迎回到另一期节目，《我们普通人创业记》。

Welcome back to another episode, Startups With The Rest Of Us.

我是你们的主持人，沃林。

I'm your host, Walling.

在本期节目中，我将深入探讨一些听众提出的主题性问题。

And in this episode, I'm gonna dive into themed listener questions.

所以如果你还不知道的话，我最近重新开始写作，自2011年以来首次重新发布文章。

So if you don't know, I've recently started writing again, publishing essays for the first time really since about 2011.

我是在 robwalling.com 上进行这些写作的。

And I'm doing that over at robwalling.com.

如果你在该网站的任何表单中输入姓名和邮箱，就可以开始每周收到我的思考分享。

If you enter your name and email in any of the forms on that site, you can start receiving a weekly thought from me.

其中一些是思维模型、框架，或者是我经常被创始人问到的问题，无论是来自TinySeed、本播客、MicroConf社区，还是通过电子邮件直接提问。

And some of these are mental models, they're frameworks, they're questions that I'm often asked by founders, whether that's from TinySeed on this podcast, in the MicroConf community direct via email.

这些概念中的大多数，我之前在书中都没有涉及过。

And most of these are concepts that I have not covered in a prior book.

有些是我在这档播客中发展出来的概念，或者正在播客中逐步完善的。

Some of them are concepts that I've developed here on this podcast or am developing on the podcast.

我意识到自己每年都在发布大量的音频内容，以及在youtube.com/robwalling上发布大量的视频内容，但很久没有做过系统的文字内容了。

And I realized that I'm putting out a ton of audio content every year, a ton of video content on youtube.com slash at robwalling, but I haven't really done serialized written content in quite a long time.

因此我决定今年要更加专注于这种表达方式，因为我感觉有很多人可能不想听音频或视频，而他们最擅长的学习方式是通过文字内容。

And I decided that I wanted to double down on that modality this year because I feel like there are a lot of folks who maybe don't wanna listen to audio or video, and the way they learn best is through written content.

所以如果你访问robwalling.com，每周都会听到我的一个新观点。

So if you head to robwalling.com, you'll hear a new thought from me every week.

不过在做这件事的过程中，我形成了一个很好的反馈循环：我发送这些邮件后，收到了大量关于它们的提问。

As I've been doing this though, it's been this great feedback loop because I'm sending out these emails and receiving a lot of questions about them.

当只需回复一封邮件就能向我提问时，我觉得自己会收到更多关于这些话题的问题。

And when it's as easy as just hitting reply to an email and shooting me a question, I feel like I get a lot more questions about the topics.

我还收到了很多感谢，有人说很高兴我重新开始写作，这让我感到非常有动力，也很感激能拥有如此棒的社群。

I'm also getting a lot of thanks and I'm glad you're writing again, makes me feel really motivated and makes me feel grateful to have such an awesome community.

但最近我发了一封关于任务级、项目级和负责人级思考者的邮件。

But recently I sent out an email about task level, project level, and owner level thinkers.

针对这封邮件，我收到了大量问题，比如如何找到这样的人、他们有多贵、该如何识别他们等等。

And in response to that, I received a lot of questions about how to find them and how expensive are they and how do you identify them and so on.

因此，我想在这期节目中花不少时间专门谈谈如何做到这一点。

And so I wanted to spend a good chunk of this episode talking about how to do just that.

如果你还没加入我的邮件列表，错过了那封邮件，别担心，朋友。

And if you're not on the list yet and you missed that email, don't worry my friend.

我正在把这些邮件整理成一个序列，所以如果你今天注册，就会收到我几周前发送的邮件。

I'm putting all of these emails into a sequence such that if you sign up today, you will receive the emails that I sent a few weeks ago.

但如果你还没加入我的邮件列表，应该去 robwalling.com 找一下任何邮件订阅入口。

But if you aren't already on my email list, you should head to robwalling.com and just look for any email opt in.

博客的页脚或侧边栏里都有一个。

There's one in the footer or there's one in the sidebar of the blog.

我还会将部分这些邮件作为新文章发布在 robwalling.com/essays。

And I'm also publishing some of those emails as new essays@robwalling.comslashessays.

最后，如果你在 YouTube 上，但还没关注我，请访问 youtube.com/@robwalling。

And finally, if you are on YouTube and you're not watching me, youtube.com/@robwalling.

我每两周发布一个视频，内容完全全新，既不在这个播客中出现，也不会通过邮件发送给我的订阅者。

I'm putting out a video every other week, and it's completely new content that is not done on this podcast and not sent out via email to my list.

因此，通过关注这三个渠道，你能更全面地了解我的思考。

So you get a just a lot more of my thinking by hitting all three of those avenues.

好了，接下来我们来看我的第一个读者问题。

And with that, let's dive into my first reader question.

由于我没有事先征得每位回复者的同意，我会将大家的身份匿名处理。

Since I didn't get permission in advance from everyone who responded to me, I'm gonna leave folks anonymous.

但我的第一位提问者，是针对我那封关于任务级、所有者级和项目级思考者的邮件做出的回复。

But my first question asker responded to, again, to this email about task level, owner level, and project level thinkers.

实际上，让我快速定义一下这三个层次，以防你还没读过这本书或错过播客的那一集。

And actually, let me do a quick definition of those three levels in case you haven't read the book or you missed the podcast episode.

我对与我共事的人的能力水平有一个心理框架。

So I have a mental framework about different levels of ability with folks who you work with.

大多数人，尤其是在职业生涯早期，都是任务型思考者。

Most people, especially when they start out earlier in their career, are task level thinkers.

意思是，你交给他们一个任务，通常还需要给予一些指导。

Meaning you hand them a task and usually you have to give them some guidance around it.

有时你甚至不给指导，他们也能自己想明白。

And sometimes you don't and they can figure it out.

但他们完成这个任务后，会把结果交还给你，然后等待你分配下一个任务。

But they work on that task, then they return the results to you, and then they move on to the next task that you've assigned them.

项目型思考者则比这高一个层次。

Project level thinkers are a level above that.

这些人能够管理整个项目，应对可能相互冲突的优先级和更复杂的状况，并推动项目持续前进。

And those are folks who can manage an entire project with potentially conflicting priorities, a lot more going on, and they can keep it driving forward.

有时他们管理着任务级思考者，或者至少在推动——即使不是直接管理——他们也在推动一个或多个任务级思考者协助完成项目。

Sometimes they're managing task level thinkers or at least driving, even if not directly managing, they're driving one or more task level thinkers to help deliver the project.

显然，管理项目需要更多的复杂性和更多的技能。

There's obviously a lot more complexity and a lot more there's a lot more skills needed to manage projects.

我认为大多数人，尤其是刚进入职业生涯时作为个人贡献者（IC），他们的职责是完成任务。

And I think most people, again, when they first start out in their career and they're an IC or an individual contributor, they are there to do tasks.

但到了某个阶段，当你足够优秀时，就可以开始管理项目了。

And at a certain point, you get good enough that you can start managing projects.

不过，很多人我认为并没有达到下一个层次，也就是第三层次：拥有者级思考者。

A lot of people though, I don't think they make it to this next level, the third level, which is owner level thinkers.

你可以称这种人为创始人级思考者。

You could call this a founder level thinker.

你也可以称这种人为高管级思考者。

You could call this an executive level thinker.

但我称之为拥有者级。

But I call it owner level.

我认为任务级思考者通常会提前几小时考虑，有时根据任务的不同，也会提前一两天。

And I think of it like a task level thinker probably thinks ahead a few hours or maybe depending on the task a day or two.

我认为项目级思考者会提前几周，甚至几个月考虑问题，这同样取决于项目的规模和复杂性。

I think a project level thinker is thinking ahead weeks, maybe a few months, again depending on the size and complexity of the project.

而所有者级思考者可能会提前六个月、十二个月，甚至两年进行规划。

And an owner level thinker might be thinking ahead six months, twelve months, two years.

他们要考虑公司内发生的方方面面，提出全新的想法，然后进行评估——不是像有创业型注意力缺陷障碍那样，把所有想法一股脑丢给团队，而是真正地评估浮现的想法、机遇，然后推动团队共同实施。

Thinking about everything that's going on at a company, coming up with brand new ideas, and then weighing them, not having entrepreneurial ADHD and shoving that all to their team, but actually evaluating thoughts and ideas that are coming up and opportunities, and then getting the team on board to implement those.

这不仅包括对人员的管理，还包括对优先级的管理，学会对很多事情说不，作为所有者级思考者需要做出大量决策，面对不完整的信息做出艰难抉择；而作为任务级思考者，你通常不需要做艰难决策，而且往往拥有完整的信息。

It includes not only management of people, but management of priorities, saying no to a lot of things, a lot of decision making as an owner level thinker, making a lot of hard decisions with incomplete information versus as a task level thinker, you don't have to make hard decisions, and you usually have very complete information.

作为项目级思考者，你可能需要做出一些艰难决策，但大多数情况下你已经掌握了大部分信息。

And as a project level thinker, you might have to make some hard decisions, but for the most part you have most of the information.

而作为所有者级思考者，这正是你的全部工作——任何找上你的问题，都是在信息不完整的情况下必须做出的艰难决策。

And then as an owner level, it's your whole job, anything that comes up to you is a hard decision with incomplete information.

因此，总结一下定义：所有者级思考者显然在管理大量的优先事项和众多人员。

And so to wrap up the definition, owner level thinkers obviously are managing a lot of priorities and a lot of people.

他们描绘愿景，让每个人负起责任，并带领整个团队朝着一个方向前进。

And they are painting a vision, keeping everyone accountable, and moving the whole team in a direction.

但你知道，也可能存在不管理任何人的所有者级思考者。

But you know, can have an owner level thinker who doesn't manage anyone.

你依然能感觉到他们是更高一层次的人。

And you'll still know that they are they're kind of next level.

他们的思维方式和执行力，远超你身边其他人的水平。

They just think and execute at a level that is seriously advanced compared to the other folks you're working with.

基于这个定义，我的第一位提问者说，这个阐述非常清晰、结构完善。

So with that definition, my first question asker said, This was very well framed and laid out.

你会说所有者级思考者通常更资深、更有经验吗？

Would you say owner level thinkers are typically more senior and experienced?

还是说这更像是一种性格类型和思维模式？

Or is it more of a personality type and a mindset?

以我的经验来看，我认为要掌握这种能力需要多年时间。

And in my experience, I think it takes years to learn it.

我想不到有谁在刚入行的头几年，仅仅凭借性格或心态就能像所有者一样思考。

I can't think of someone who has just the personality type or the mindset and is in their first couple years thinking like an owner.

因为所有者会从战略角度思考。

Because owners think strategically.

他们会考虑长期发展。

They think long term.

你需要大量的信息。

You need a lot of information.

你需要出色的、非常出色的创始者直觉和敏锐的洞察力。

You need good, really really good founder gut, really good intuition.

你才能做出正确的决策。

You'd be making good decisions.

我认为，如果没有经历过相当多的历练、大量的工作、多次的失败与成功，以及见证什么有效、什么无效，

And I just think without quite a few notches on your belt, quite a bit of work, quite a bit of mistakes and successes and seeing what works and what doesn't.

以及在晋升过程中积累的所有伤痕——这么说可能有点奇怪，但我认为这通常意味着更资深。

And all the scar tissue that comes from working of working your way up, it sounds like a weird way to say it, but I think it is generally more senior.

但这并不意味着只要一个人资历更深，他就具备主人级别的思维方式。

That doesn't mean just because someone is more senior that they're an owner level thinker.

我敢保证，有很多人职业生涯已经十五年、二十年、二十五年甚至三十年了，却仍然只停留在任务级或项目级的思维层面。

I guarantee you there are folks who are fifteen, twenty, twenty five, thirty years into their career who are still task level or project level thinkers.

所以，并不是每个人都能达到这种境界。

So it doesn't mean everyone gets there.

但我很难想象，一个具备主人级别思维的人，却没有至少工作几年的经验。

But I have a hard time imagining an owner level thinker that hasn't been working for at least a few years.

不过，我确实看到一些二十七八岁的初创创始人非常出色。

Now I do see some startup founders that are in their mid to late twenties that are really sharp.

还有一些TinySeed的创始人正在疯狂执行，年经常性收入达到数百万美元。

And there are some TinySeed founders that are executing like crazy, doing millions a year in ARR.

他们才28岁。

And they're like 28 years old.

所以这其中确实有某种原因，但我认为这极其罕见。

And so there's something there, but I think it's extremely rare.

我认为一般来说，就我自身而言，刚入行时，我是个任务型思考者。

I think generally, and I will speak for myself in this, when I first started my career, I was a task level thinker.

我一次根本没法处理多件事。

I just couldn't do multiple things at once.

我不会优先排序。

I couldn't prioritize.

我管不好这些事。

I couldn't manage it.

我没法让所有事情同时顺利进行。

I couldn't keep all the plates spinning.

在最初的五六年左右，甚至更久一点，我记得自己逐渐变得能从容地推进项目了。

And then over the course of the first five ish, six ish years, maybe a little longer, I remember getting to the point where I was really comfortable running projects.

我认为那时我成了一个扎实的项目型思考者，并且记得自己在这方面越来越熟练。

And I think I became a solid project level thinker at that point, and I remember getting better at it.

当我开始尝试创业时，我还不是个拥有者型思考者，因为我需要太多的确定性。

And then as I dipped my toe into becoming an entrepreneur, I wasn't an owner level thinker because I needed too much certainty.

我无法在信息不完整的情况下做出艰难的决定。

I couldn't make hard decisions with incomplete information.

我不知道该怎么做到这一点。

Didn't know how to do that.

然后我又花了五到十年，甚至可能五到八年，才真正适应过来，对自己能力有信心，信任自己的创业直觉，并培养出能够做出明智决策的创业直觉。

And then it took me another five to I don't even know, five to ten, five to eight years to really feel into it and to be confident in my own ability, to trust my founder gut, and to develop my founder gut to the point where I was making good decisions.

因为这就是成为所有者层级思考者所要求的。

Because that's what being an owner level thinker requires.

所以总结一下，我认为一般来说，这与资历和经验更相关。

So to recap that, I do think generally it's more senior experienced.

如果我要雇人，我通常会把工作年限作为一个至少的参考指标。

If I was going to hire someone, I would generally be thinking about years on the job as at least a proxy.

当然，你还是得评估，因为一个人即使有十五年经验，仍可能只是个任务层级的思考者。

And of course then you have to evaluate, because again someone can be fifteen years in and still be a task level thinker.

第二个问题是，在你的经验中，美国或北美地区的薪酬范围是多少？

Second question is, in your experience, what is the compensation range for US or North America?

因为在加拿大，某人的薪资可能便宜20%到30%。

Because obviously in Canada, someone might be 20 or 30% cheaper.

这是针对拥有者级思考者的薪酬范围。

And this is the compensation range for owner level thinkers.

这个问题很难回答，因为它取决于很多因素。

This is really hard to answer because it depends.

你可以找到一些具备潜质的人，他们是非常出色的项目级思考者，迫切希望成为拥有者级思考者并独立主导事务，但之前从未被赋予过这样的机会。

So you can get someone who has the raw material, who is a great project level thinker and is itching to be an owner level thinker and really run their own thing, but they've never been allowed to.

所以他们正处在那个临界点上。

And so they're right on that cusp.

很难判断。

It's hard to tell.

我们稍后会谈到如何评估或识别项目级和拥有者级思考者。

We're going talk a little bit later about how to evaluate or how to identify project and owner level thinkers.

但如果你找到一个正处于临界点的人，他们在为你工作的第一年或第二年就成长为拥有者级思考者，那么显然你可以以某个薪资范围聘用他们。

But if you get someone right on that cusp who becomes an owner level thinker within the first year or two of working for you, then obviously you can get them at a certain salary range.

如果我考虑美国或北美，我觉得可能是80万到90万美元；但如果是那些有经验、被允许充分发挥、真正主导过组织并成为主人级思考者，且薪酬与其价值相匹配的人，那收入肯定是六位数的低端到中端。

And if I think US or North America, I mean maybe 80,090 thousand dollars But if I think of someone who has the experience and has been allowed to stretch their legs and really drive an org and really be an owner level thinker and they were kind of paid commensurate based on their value, you were definitely looking at low to mid 6 figures.

然而，这取决于他们住在哪里。

However, it depends on where they live.

我知道一些住在湾区的任务级个体贡献者开发者，年薪高达50万美元。

I know task level individual contributor developers living in the Bay Area who are making $500,000 a year.

这包括股票期权之类的收入。

That includes stock grants and such.

而我也知道一些住在生活成本极低城市或远程工作的人，做着非常相似的工作，年薪只有10万美元；当我们说‘美国’时，这个差距非常大。

And then I know folks living in a very low cost of living city or working remotely who are doing a very similar job in making $100,000 when we say The US, that's a big spread.

加拿大也是如此。

And Canada as well.

但你明白我的意思了。

But you get the idea.

有些主人级思考者年薪能达到25万到35万美元吗？

Could some owner level thinkers be making $250,000 $350,000 a year?

当然。

Absolutely.

我只是知道，大多数听这个播客的公司，以及我接触的大多数预算负责人，并不需要雇佣这样的人。

I just know most companies listening to this podcast and most folks that I deal with budget don't have to hire folks like that.

然后我想最后一个问题是，是否可以在不通过工资单W2的情况下雇佣这些拥有者？

And then I think the last question is, is it possible to hire these owner without payrollW2?

或者当你说到全职时，是否默认就是W2工资单？

Or when you say full time, is the payrollW2 assumed?

也许你可以采用每周30小时的薪酬加基于目标的奖金结构，因为W2工资单根据州或地区不同可能会带来额外的税务负担。

Perhaps you could do a mix of thirty hour pay plus some kind of bonus structure based on goals since W2 payroll can create additional tax liabilities depending on the state or location.

我的意思是，这要看情况，也许吧。

I mean it depends, maybe.

我从来没听说过这种做法。

I've never heard of this.

如果一个人真的这么优秀、这么有价值，只要你提供福利，他们就会成为全职W2员工并享受医疗保险。

Like if someone is this good and they're this valuable, they will be full time W2 with healthcare if you offer it.

你们还有哪些其他福利？

Any other benefits you have.

换个角度想一想。

Think about it this way.

你该怎么让这么优秀的人来为你工作？

How do you get someone who's this good to come work for you?

因为他们如果知道自己价值，去哪里都能找到工作。

Because they can work anywhere they want if they know their value.

所以每周三十小时加上其他一些东西，我不知道。

And so thirty hours a week plus other stuff is I don't know.

这是一种拼劲十足的初创者做法。

It's a scrappy bootstrapper y way to do things.

也许你会走运，但真正有主人翁思维的人本来就很难在现实中找到。

And maybe you'll get lucky but owner level thinkers are hard enough to find in the wild anyways.

这种人很难找。

They're hard to find.

如果你找到了这样的人，希望他们也清楚自己的价值，可以去任何地方。

And if you find them, know hopefully they know their value and they can kind of go anywhere.

所以我无法想象有人愿意加入并每周只工作三十小时，除非这真的符合他们的整个生活方式。

So I can't imagine someone wanting to come on board and work for thirty hours a week, unless that really fit their whole lifestyle.

他们可能会说：哦，我只想工作三十小时。

They were like, oh, I only want to work thirty hours.

对吧？

Right?

确实有一些人想要这种生活方式，他们渴望每周多出十小时的自由时间。

There are some folks who do want that lifestyle and they want that freedom of that extra ten hours a week.

在这种情况下，是的，也许这样可行。

And in that case, yeah, maybe it would work.

也许你可以这样考虑：

Maybe you could hire here's the thing.

也许他们更愿意以自由职业者的身份工作，因为他们确实想保持生活方式的自由和灵活。

Maybe they wanna work as a contractor because they do wanna maintain that freedom and flexibility of their lifestyle.

在这种情况下，我想这可能是可行的。

And in that case, I guess it could work.

通常来说，我认为如果你希望有人在你的组织中担任这种拥有者级别的思考者，他们很可能会成为你组织中至关重要的部分，甚至可能负责管理整个领域或部门，因此作为留任激励，他们或许应该获得股权。

It just generally I think if you want someone in your org this owner level thinker will likely become a pretty pivotal part of your org and potentially be managing the whole area or department, managing the whole thing, they maybe should get equity as a retention motivator.

所以，我认为这些就是我的想法。

And so yeah, I think those are my thoughts there.

W2形式会根据州和所在地产生税务责任。

W2 creating tax liability depending on state and location.

是的，这不过是必然发生的事。

Yeah, it's just what happens.

有些州我不会考虑在那里招聘，就是因为这个问题。

There are certain states I don't think I would hire in because of that.

谢谢你的这些问题。

Thanks for those questions.

因此，我认为这个问题引出了另一个你必须认真自问的问题。

And so I think that question begs another question that you really have to ask yourself.

你有预算聘请一个项目负责人或所有者级别的思考者吗？

Do you have the budget to hire a project or owner level thinker?

因为以前我熬夜周末自己创业时，根本没这个预算。

Because back in the day when I was bootstrapping nights and weekends, I just didn't have the budget.

这就是为什么我养成了事必躬亲的坏习惯，只雇佣虚拟助理或非常廉价、初级的资源，然后培训他们，给他们标准操作流程。

And this is why I developed some bad habits of doing everything myself and only hiring virtual assistants or really inexpensive resources and really junior resources and training them up and giving them SOPs.

那段时间倒也还行。

And it was fine.

那正是我当时所需要的。

And it what I needed at that time.

但后来这习惯反噬了我，因为我养成了一个坏习惯。

But it came back to bite me later because it was a bad habit that I developed.

我花了很长时间才意识到，到了某个阶段，我必须在团队上花更多钱，雇更多中高级人才，这样我们才能更快推进，所有决策的负担不再压在我一个人身上。

And it took me a long time to get to the point of like, oh no, need at a certain point, need to spend more money on my team and I need to hire more mid level and senior people so that we can move faster and that all of the decision making burden is not on me.

所以要对自己关于预算的情况保持现实。

So being realistic with yourself about budget.

你有吗？

Do you have it?

如果你有，能的话就雇用项目级和所有者级的人才。

And if you do, hire project if you can, project level and owner level if you can.

但很明显，这可能会很贵。

But obviously it's, you know, it can be pricey.

我认识的每个创始人都梦想过退出时会是什么样子。

Every founder I know dreams about what an exit might look like.

但如果你的年经常性收入在200万到2500万美元之间，你可能已经意识到自己处于一个奇怪的中间地带。

But if you're doing between 2 and 25,000,000 in ARR, you've probably realized you're in this weird middle zone.

太大了，不适合在线市场；太小了，投资银行又不感兴趣。

Too big for the online marketplaces, too small for an investment bank to care.

这正是我的好友埃纳尔·沃尔萨特创立Discretion Capital的原因。

That's exactly why my good friend Einar Volsat started Discretion Capital.

埃纳尔是我在TinySeed的联合创始人，他帮助过你在这档播客中听过的公司实现了改变人生的退出。

Einar is my co founder at TinySeed and he's helped companies you've heard on this podcast have life changing exits.

如果你听过 Scraping Bee 或 Jim Desc 的访谈，你就听过那些创始人谈论 Discretion 为他们做了什么。

If you listened to the Scraping Bee or Jim Desc episodes, you heard those founders talk about what Discretion did for them.

那些都是巨大的成果。

Those were massive outcomes.

他的团队帮助 Segments.ai 被 Uber 收购，也帮助 Sparkloop 被 Convertkit 收购。

His team has helped Segments dot ai exit to Uber and Sparkloop to Convertkit.

无论你是想了解公司可能值多少钱，手头有报价但不确定是否值得，还是想启动完整流程以实现最大价值，都请访问 discretioncapital.com，与 A&R 团队聊聊。

Whether you're just trying to understand what your company might be worth, you've got an offer on the table and you're not sure if it's any good, or you want to run a full process and get maximum value, head to discretioncapital.com and have a conversation with A and R's team.

不过另一个问题是，项目层面真的需要所有者吗？

Another question though is do you need owners in project level?

‘需要’这个词对我来说很难定义，但我想说，自从我们雇佣了更多中层和高级人才来接手这些重大任务后，作为创业者，我的生活变得轻松多了。

Need is a difficult thing for me to define, but I would say that my life has gotten so much easier as an entrepreneur since we have hired more mid level and senior folks who can take these big tasks off my plate.

这让我能腾出时间去思考更长远的规划，探索新计划，并专注于我的优势领域——而不是公司日常运营。

And it frees me up then to think longer term and to think about new initiatives and to stay in my zone of genius, which is not day to day operations of a company.

当然，我也可以亲自操办这些事。

Of course, I can operate one.

我做过很多次了。

I've done it many times.

这是我的第六家公司，TinySeed是我第六家公司。

This is my sixth, TinySeed is my sixth company.

我能够操作。

And I can operate.

但这并不是我最喜欢的事情。

It's just not my favorite thing.

如果我能找到一个做得和我一样好甚至更好的人来处理日常运营和管理，那么这些琐碎事务可能并不是我最该花时间做的事。

And day to day operations and management and being in the weeds is perhaps not the best use of my time if I can find someone who can do it as good as or better than me.

这就是关键。

And that's the thing.

有很多人比我在管理和激励团队方面做得更好。

There are a lot of folks who manage people and motivate people better than me.

他们应该去做这些事。

And they should be doing it.

所以，思考这个问题的方式是：你是否需要，以及是否有预算？

And so that's the way to think about it is do you need and do you have the budget?

另一个我收到的问题是夸奖了我的文章，如果你想要订阅并接收这些邮件，可以访问 robwalling.com/essays。

Then another question I received complimented my essay, robwalling.com/essays, if you want to subscribe and get those emails.

这个问题其实是两个问题。

The question well, it's two questions.

你在哪里找到？

Where do you find?

你是在哪里找到的？

Where did you find?

这才是问题所在。

Is the question.

你在哪里找到你的高层级思考者的？

Where did you find your owner level thinkers?

你花了多长时间找到他们，并将他们融入你的公司？

And how long did it take you to find them and integrate them into your company?

所以我要对此做一个概括。

So I'm going to generalize this.

你在哪里找到那些有这种思维水平的人？

Where do you find folks who are thinking at this level?

显然，如果你拥有一个极佳的人脉网络。

Obviously, if you have an incredible network.

这才是你应该建立人脉的地方，而不是建立受众。

This is where you should build your network, not your audience.

如果你拥有一个极佳的人脉网络，或者哪怕是受众，你也应该先从那里找。

If you have an incredible network or an audience for that matter, you look there first.

因为即使是间接的熟人介绍，也往往能带来你合作过最优秀的人才。

Because warm introductions, even second or third hand are going to be some of the best folks that you work with.

但关键是。

But here's the thing.

每次我们招聘时，都会撰写职位描述，并在互联网上广泛发布。

Every time we've hired, we have created a job description and we have posted it all over the Internet.

我们聘请了Remote First Recruiting来帮助我们推广职位并筛选候选人，这样我们就不用自己做所有工作。

We've hired Remote First Recruiting to help us promote the job and then to screen candidates so we're not doing all the work.

我 definitely 推荐他们。

And I definitely recommend it.

他们是Dan和Ian的Remote First Recruiting。

It's Dan and Ian's Remote First Recruiting.

很多TinySeed公司都在使用他们，自TinySeed和MicroConf成立以来，我们几乎每一次招聘都用过他们。

A bunch of TinySeed companies use them and TinySeed and MicroConf have used them for almost every hire we have ever done since they've existed.

但这就是我们的起点。

But that's where we start.

我之所以说我们从这里开始，是因为我们会把职位发布在招聘网站上，并通过我们的社交媒体和自有媒体进行推广。

And the reason I'm saying we start there is we post on the job boards, we promote it through our socials and our owned media.

我们会通过邮件列表发送，并在TinySeed的Slack群组中分享。

We put it through our email lists and we go to the TinySeed Slack.

但之后我们会开始动用人脉，询问别人：你认识符合这个描述的人吗？

But then we start working our network and asking folks, Do you know folks who might fit this description?

我现在合作的那些具有老板级思维的人，是通过多种途径来的。

And the owner level thinkers that I work with now have come through a mix.

其中一些人之前我就认识，或者是我团队里的人认识的。

Some of them were known previously by me and folks on my team.

比如特蕾西·奥斯本，她是产品负责人，在MicroConf和TinySeed承担了大量工作，我相信她曾在2016年参加过MicroConf的演讲。

So Tracy Osborne, who's the head of product and does a lot of heavy lifting at MicroConf and TinySeed spoke at MicroConf in 2016, I believe.

她曾是Wedding Lovely的创始人，并且参加过500 Startups项目。

And she was a startup founder of Wedding Lovely and had gone through 500 startups.

但我们之后没有保持联系。

And we hadn't stayed in touch.

但当我们发布这份职位描述时——我想是哪一年来着？2019年？

But when we posted this job description in, I think it was what, 2019?

是的。

Yeah.

2019年或2020年，她对此感兴趣。

2019, 2020, she was interested.

我当时就想，哦，一位前创业创始人对这个职位感兴趣？

And I was like, oh, a former startup founder interested in doing this role?

这立刻是个好迹象。

That's instantly a good sign.

但也可能是个坏迹象。

It can be a bad sign.

换个角度看。

Take it on the flip side.

有些人创业失败是因为把公司搞垮了，他们并不擅长这个。

Some folks' startups fail because they drive it into the ground and they're not good at it.

而有些人创业失败是因为大多数创业公司都会失败。

And then some folks' startups fail because most startups fail.

这本来就是常态。

That's just the way it goes.

但并没有什么秘密渠道可以找到这些人。

But it's not as if there's some secret place to find these folks.

对我们来说，其实就是招聘网站。

I mean for us it's literally just job boards.

关键是筛选。

And the key is screening.

要找到那些真正能执行、有类似经验或具备潜质的人，而难点在于，你是在投资一个人，让他成长为那样的人。

It's getting down to the folks who are really executing and who have a role that is similar or have the raw material, and this is where it gets tough, is you're investing in someone to become that.

因为特蕾西2019年刚加入我们时，她是个非常出色、具备项目级思维的人。

Because when Tracy started working with us back in 2019, she was a really solid and exceptional project level thinker.

我觉得这现在就是我的评价。

I I think that's my evaluation these days.

真有趣。

Funny.

我真没怎么想过这个问题。

Haven't really thought about this.

但这些年来，她已经成长为一个具备主人翁思维的人了。

But she's developed into, you know, an owner level thinker over the years.

我们团队里还有其他人也经历了这样的转变。

And there's there's a couple other folks on our team that have done that.

所以我认为，看到人的潜力固然重要，但这也可能很危险。

And so I think there's a certain amount of seeing the potential in people, but that can be dangerous.

因为你可能会看到一些潜力，而他们却从未真正发展出来。

Because you can see potential that they never develop into.

当然，能够真正评估项目级和主人级思考者，是我们稍后要讨论的内容。

And of course, being able to actually evaluate project and owner level thinkers is something we're going to talk about in a second.

但第二个问题是，你花了多长时间找到他们？

But this second question of how long did it take you to find them?

正常的时间。

A normal amount.

你知道的，从发布职位到他们被录用并开始工作，大概几个月吧。

You know, whatever it is, a couple months from posting the job until they were hired and starting.

两个月，两个半月，不管怎样，直到他们提交辞职信为止。

Two months, two and a half months, whatever, until they gave notice and all that.

所以这属于正常时间。

So it was a normal amount.

但接下来的问题是，让他们融入公司需要多长时间？

But then the question is how long to integrate them in the company?

这才是关键，对吧？

And that's the big thing, right?

我认为，当人们被赋予拓展空间和责任时，很多人会成为具有主人翁意识的思考者。

I think a lot of folks become owner level thinkers when given the ability to stretch their wings and when given the responsibility.

而他们必须赢得这种信任。

And they have to earn it.

但很多人之前在其他公司工作时，可能受到管理方式的限制，或缺乏责任，或根本没有他们的成长空间。

But a lot of folks have worked at other companies and they've potentially been constrained by management or lack of responsibility or there's just not room for them.

那里没有发展机会。

There's no growth opportunity there.

所以我想说的是，你招聘的这类人，我认为多数会更偏向项目层面。

And so I guess what I'm saying is a lot of folks you hire like this I think are gonna be more project level.

但当你与他们交谈时，你内心问自己的问题是：我认为他们有能力成长为一名拥有者思维者吗？

But the question you're asking yourself as you talk to them is, do I think they have the ability to become, to grow into this role as an owner level thinker?

有趣的是，我对时间表没有任何猜测。

And the interesting thing is I have no guess on timeline.

他们能在六个月内成为这样的人吗？

Could they become one in six months?

或者可能需要三年？

Or maybe it's three years?

我认为这两种情况都可以，只要他们能胜任当前作为项目级思考者的工作，并且在此期间不断成长。

I think either is fine as long as they can do their current role as a project level thinker and they're kind of evolving over that time.

对我来说，当我观察小公司，尤其是看到人们成长时，你会听到这样一个说法：你是你常相处的五个人的平均值。

To me, when I look at small companies especially, and I see people evolve, it's like you've heard this thing about how you're the average of the five people that you hang around with.

这是一种朋友群体的类比。

So that's a friend group analogy.

你在音乐人身上也能看到这种现象，比如披头士乐队、齐柏林飞艇，或者任何一支杰出的团队，他们几乎是在无意识中彼此激励。

You see it with musicians, where like the Beatles or Led Zeppelin or any incredible group that develops, they lift each other up almost unintentionally.

也许还存在一种友好的竞争，或者某些特质会彼此影响。

And maybe there's a friendly rivalry or there's certain things that rub off from one to the other.

而有一个在某方面特别出色的人，其他人也会受到影响。

And one person who's exceptional at something, everyone else that.

这个人擅长销售，或者擅长决策，或者擅长推动事务进展，擅长管理。

This person is exceptional at sales or exceptional at decision making or exceptional at moving things forward, exceptional at management.

你看到这个人就会想，天啊，他们真的太厉害了。

You see that person and you're like, Man, they're really good.

我也要学着做一点他们正在做的事情。

I'm going kind of do a little bit of what they're doing.

只要基础条件具备，而且每个人都愿意学习，每个人都会变得更好。

And everybody gets better if the raw material is there and everyone is interested in learning.

我在这些小团队中也看到了同样的现象。

And I see the same thing on these small teams.

所以，如果你开始招聘那些卓越的人，他们不断进步，并且带动下面的人，也许他们正在管理这些人，而这些人也开始进步，整个团队就像潮水上涨，水涨船高。

And so if you start hiring people that are exceptional and they're getting better and they bring someone up underneath them, maybe they're managing them, and they start getting better as well, The whole team, the rising tide, it raises all the boats.

困难的部分在于，如果你雇了一个能力不够的人，而且这一点很明显，那就很棘手。

And the hard part is if you hire someone who isn't as good and it's noticeable, it's tough.

这会拖累整个团队，稍微打击士气。

It drags the team down, drags the morale down a little bit.

这可能会给这种氛围泼冷水。

And it can put a damper on that.

我几乎觉得这就像一种指数级的正向循环。

I almost think of it as this exponential yes, ending.

另一个类似的比喻是这些音乐场景。

Another analogy is these scenes.

上世纪90年代，西雅图有过一个音乐场景。

You had the Seattle music scene in the 90s.

每隔几年，一个城市就会兴起一个新的音乐潮流，比如20世纪70年代英国的朋克场景。

Every couple years there used to be a new scene in a city and there was the punk scene in The UK in the 1970s.

那么，为什么会发生这种情况呢？

And it's like, why does this happen?

这是因为这些乐队看到周围的其他乐队，受到它们的影响，但它们都在共同崛起。

And it's because these bands see the other bands around them and they're influenced by them, but they're all kind of rising up together.

这种势头、兴趣和好奇心交织在一起。

And there's this momentum and there's this interest and there's this curiosity.

也许它们是有意互相帮助，也许这是无意识的。

And maybe they're intentionally helping each other out or maybe it's unintentional.

但不管怎样，每个人都在进步，形成了一种良性循环。

But whatever it is, everyone's getting better and it's this virtuous cycle.

因此，我也用这种方式来理解它。

And so that's also how I think about it.

尤其是小团队。

Especially small teams.

我认为即使在大公司内部，也可以有小团队。

And I think you could be small teams within a larger company.

人们彼此之间会产生深远的影响。

People really impact each other.

所以，如果你能招到出色的人才，并且持续不断地培养他们，新来的人就会明白这家公司对他们的期望是什么。

So if you get exceptional people working for you And if you are able to just keep feeding that, then new people who come in realize what the expectations are of this company.

每个人都非常非常擅长自己的工作。

Everyone is very very good at what they do.

我们都不会掉链子。

And none of us drop balls.

我们都是善良的人，但天哪，我们执行力超强，不断推出产品，而且以我们的规模，取得的成果和对世界的影响远远超出了我们的预期。

And we're all kind people, but man, we execute and we ship and we punch way above our weight class in terms of what we get done and the impact we have on the world.

一个小团队。

Tiny team.

想想MicroConf和TinySeed，只有九名全职员工和两名兼职员工。

Think of like MicroConf and TinySeed is nine full time people and two part time.

在过去七年里，我们投资了两家B2B SaaS公司。

And we have invested in two ten B2B SaaS companies in the last seven years.

除了主脑匹配和连接服务，我们还负责运营所有的MicroConf活动。

We run all the MicroConf events in addition to mastermind matching and connect.

我们推出这个播客和YouTube频道。

We push out this podcast and YouTube.

我们运营SaaS研究所的高级辅导服务。

We run SaaS Institute premium coaching.

我们运营一个完整的SaaS加速器。

We run a full SaaS accelerator.

我们管理的资产接近六千万美元，达到五千九百万美元。

We have $59,000,000 almost $60,000,000 of assets under management.

有些团队规模是我们两到三倍，却做不到我们这么多事情。

There are teams that are two or three times the size of us that don't do the number of things that we do.

我们能做到这些，是因为团队里有很多杰出的人才。

And the way that we're able to do it is because we have a lot of exceptional folks on the team.

我经常被问到的一个问题是，你们如何识别这样的人才？

Another question that I got a lot was how do you identify folks?

有没有特定的职位名称或职位描述？

Is there a specific job title or job description?

我认为这就是你应该开始的地方。

I think that's where you start.

如果你想找到一个具有主人翁思维的人，就不要给办公室经理这个职位写职位描述。

If you want an owner level thinker, you don't put a job description for an office manager.

你也许能在那个职位上找到一个具有主人翁思维的人，但在职位层级中，这些头衔是有其含义的。

You may get an owner level thinker at that, but in the hierarchy of job titles, these things have meaning.

有初级岗位，然后是个人贡献者，接着是主管，然后是经理、总监、副总裁、高管层。

There's entry level, then there's individual contributors, and then there's supervisors, then there's managers, directors, vice presidents, C level folks.

我认为，如果你想要一个人真正掌控整个领域、整个业务单元或任何其他部分，希望他能承担责任，那你谈论的应该是总监级别或以上。

And I think generally if you want someone who's really going to take control of an entire area, entire business unit, entire whatever, you want them to take ownership, I think you're talking at director level or above.

通常，这个级别也对应着一定的薪资水平。

And typically a certain salary is equated with that as well.

所以，要识别出具有项目主人翁思维的人，关键还是要问他们过去在推动项目方面做过什么，对吧？

So identifying folks who are project owner level thinkers really comes back to asking them questions about what have you done to drive projects in the past, right?

你做过什么来承担责任，并将某件事发展得超越其原本的规模？

And what have you done to take ownership and grow something beyond what it is?

当你展望未来六个月时，要有远见，并拥有极大的自主权和决策权，甚至可能拥有预算权来推动事情前进。

Have a vision when you're looking ahead six months and have the incredible autonomy and decision making power and potentially budgetary power to drive things forward.

你不仅是在问他们，还在查看他们的简历。

You're not just asking them, but you're actually looking at their resume.

他们究竟做过什么？

What have they actually done?

然后深入探究：哦，你当时在一个300人的团队里，却说你推动了这些成果。

And then digging into, oh you were on a team of like 300 people, and you say that you drove these results.

你到底具体做了什么？

What did you actually do?

你个人做了什么，而不是你整个团队做的？

What did you personally do versus the rest of your team?

你的营销文案和设计太棒了。

Your marketing copy and your design is amazing.

你是有一整个团队在做这些，而你只是在做项目管理吗？

Did you have a whole team doing that and you basically just project manage everything?

这也没关系，因为现在你是个项目经理。

That's okay too because now you're a project manager.

但你能了解他们的技能。

But you get to know their skills.

当你和别人交谈时，有一些未言明的东西。

There's the unspoken when you're speaking to someone.

他们对这件事有多少热情？

It's how much energy do they have for something?

他们对这个职位有多少兴趣？

How much interest do they have in the position?

因为一个人越感兴趣，就越可能热爱自己所做的事情，并愿意积极推动并承担责任。

Cause the more interested someone is, the more likely they're gonna love what they do and wanna really drive it forward and take ownership.

还有另一点。

Here's the other thing.

在项目层面，尤其是负责人的层面，这类思考者去哪里都能工作。

Project level and especially owner level thinkers, they can work anywhere.