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我认为，普通交易未能将许多用户认为是垃圾信息的内容定价出来，这是一个更大的存在性问题。
I think it's a much bigger existential issue that normal transactions are not pricing out what many users consider to be spam.
大家好，欢迎收听斯特凡·拉维拉的播客。
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Stefan Lavira podcast.
今天，我与查理·斯皮尔斯聊天。
Today, I'm chatting with Charlie Spears.
查理来自Blockspace，这是一个专注于比特币技术方面的比特币媒体和出版物，同时也是OpNEXT会议的组织者。
Charlie is from Blockspace, which is a Bitcoin media and, publication focused on, you know, Bitcoin technology aspects and also organizers of the OpNEXT conference.
所以，查理，欢迎来到节目。
So, Charlie, welcome to the show.
很高兴能来这里，斯特凡。
Glad to be here, Stephan.
我是长期听众，第一次打电话来。
Long time listener, first time caller.
谢谢。
Well, thank you.
是的
Yeah.
好吧，你看。
Well, look.
现在有很多争论，其中一些我也在参与，比如关于BIP110以及围绕序数币的分叉等问题。
There's lots of arguments going on right now, some of which I'm getting into those as well around, you know, BIP one ten and this fork around ordinals and all that stuff.
我知道你显然更接近垃圾信息生态和序数币这一侧。
I know you're obviously a lot closer to the, the spammer ecosystem and the ordinals side of things.
同情者。
Sympathizer.
所以我也是问题的一部分，
So I'm part of the problem,
但同时也，
but also,
比如到
like To
说清楚，我并不支持。
be clear, I'm not endorsing.
我没有向链上发送垃圾信息。
I do not spam the chain.
我没有拿任何钱。
I don't take any money.
我每天被指责一千次，所以我再说一遍。
I get I get a thousand accusations, so I'll just say it again.
我没有从山寨币或垃圾信息公司拿过任何钱。
I do not take any money from shitcoin or spam companies.
我没有投资任何山寨币或垃圾信息公司。
I'm not invested in any shitcoin or spam companies.
我只是，你知道的，反正也在复制这些争议。
I'm just, you know, copying the flack anyway.
但无论如何，听听你的看法吧。
But, nevertheless, let's, get your view.
你现在如何看待这一切？
How are you seeing all this now?
关于分叉和过滤的争论，我的意思是，这场长期争论已经进入第三年了。
With regards to the fork and the filter debate, I mean, this is really on year three of the long debate.
很多人以为这场争论是从2025年5月左右开始的。
What a lot of folks think was a debate which started in, like, May 2025.
但实际上，那可能已经是现代版本争论进行两年后的事了。
That was actually probably two years into the modern iteration of it.
是的。
Yes.
这可以追溯到比特币的起源。
It goes back to the genesis of Bitcoin.
是的。
Yes.
这可以追溯到2014年2月左右最初的那次关键争论。
It goes back to the original, like, opportune debate of 02/2014 or whatever.
但现代版本的这场争论，也就是我们现在正在讨论的这些话题，实际上是从Casey在2023年1月和2月抛出Org客户端后，邮件列表最初几周就开始了，我记得很清楚。
But the modern version of it, the same, like, conversations we're having right now really started the first couple weeks on the mailing list in right after Casey threw out the org client in January 23 and February 23 because I remember that.
我当时只是偶然在Discord上和Casey待在一起。
I myself was, hanging out with Casey on Discord just kind of by accident.
作为一名资深比特币爱好者，我当时感到很矛盾。
And as a long time Bitcoiner, I was conflicted.
我看到了邮件列表上早期的大量讨论，然后意识到这根本不是个问题。
And I saw a lot of the early discussion on the mailing list, and I realized it wasn't an issue.
有趣的是，我认为自那最初的几周以来，这场争论中再也没有引入过任何新信息。
And what's funny is, no I would say no new information has been introduced into this conversation since those first couple weeks.
争论只是不断演变，我想说它本该成熟了，但实际上却退化了。
The argument has just evolved and I wanna say matured, but it's it's degraded.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，确实有些细微之处发生了变化。
I mean, I would say there's been some little nuances of things that have shifted.
举个例子，Libre Relay 可能就是这样。
So as an example, Libre Relay is probably, like Yeah.
你不能否认，这改变了中继的一个重要动态。
You can't deny that's something that kinda changed a dynamic, an important dynamic in terms of Relay.
在这段历程中，确实有一些演变的元素。
There have been elements of, you know, evolution along this journey.
我知道，正如你所说，在2023年，尤其是2023年底，当时出现了费用激增的情况。
I you know, I would say, you know, in the earlier you know, as you said, in '23 and more like late twenty twenty three, there was, you know, this fee spike was happening.
很多人对此感到愤怒，而且大家也在讨论，社区应该做出怎样的回应？
A lot of people were angry about it, and, you know, there was a sense of should there what's the response from the community?
这应该是一个社会性的问题吗？
Should it be like a social thing?
还是应该努力去过滤它？
Should it be like an an effort to actually try to filter it?
是否应该改变共识之类的？
Should there be a consensus change, etcetera?
在那个阶段，大多数人发誓说他们绝对不会同意。
And and at that stage, most of those guys were saying they were kinda swearing up and down.
不。
No.
不要共识变更。
No consensus change.
仅靠政策就足以阻止这件事。
Only policy is enough to stop this.
你那边现在是什么情况？
Where do where are you at there?
有些人发誓永远不会支持共识变更。
Some people swore that they would never advocate for a consensus change.
任何说他们这样做的指控都是彻头彻尾的谎言。
Any accusations of doing that was an outright lie.
但他们现在却在倡导这一点。
They are now advocating for that.
我很高兴他们花了三年时间才意识到，我们早在多年前就知道，要减少这类数据需要达成共识变更。
I'm glad that it took them three years to come around to the fact something that we all knew years ago that to reduce these types of data would require a consensus change.
但同样，这一点早在多年前就已经众所周知了。
But, again, that's something that was well known years ago.
至于像Libre Relay这样的东西，是的，这实际上是一种新的演进。
As it relates to, like, something like Libre Relay, yeah, that's actually a new evolution.
但我想说，我倾向于信息论的观点：从长远来看，试图在政策层面限制这类数据是没有意义的。
But I would say, like, I kinda subscribe to information theory that, it doesn't really make sense to try to limit this type of data at a policy level long term.
如果比特币要为全球采用做好准备，我们就应该讨论共识变更。
If Bitcoin is going to be ready for, like, global adoption, then we should be talking about consensus changes.
政策就像护栏，帮助比特币在初期达到可能的几万亿美元市值。
The policy is like guardrails that helps Bitcoin bootstrap to the first maybe few trillion dollars market cap.
但除此之外，如果我们从对抗的角度思考，政策并不是一个可行的解决方案。
Beyond that, I think if we wanna think adversarially, policy is not really a feasible solution.
所以我认为埃里克·沃尔实际上对彼得·托德的描述很贴切：彼得就像一位坐在幕后施法的巫师，说这些激励机制最终会发挥作用，他偶尔会往里面加入一些东西，比如Levy就是其中之一，我也差不多这么认为。
So I think Eric Wall actually characterized Peter Todd in such a way that Peter, is a little bit like a wizard sitting back and saying, well, there's these incentives which will eventually play out, and he will kind of occasionally throw things into the mix, Levy really being one of them, and I kinda believe that too.
我在这一点上算是个加速者。
I'm a bit of an acceleration in that.
我也认为，对于像序号、铭文或我们今天所见的任意数据这类相对无害的事物，如今将它们引入网络，可能远比真正具有敌意的信息要好得多，而后者我预计终将出现。
I also think that for relatively benign things like ordinals or inscriptions or just arbitrary data as we see it today, That type of thing being introduced to the network today is probably way better than truly adversarial types of information, which I do anticipate will happen.
如果我们认为国家行为体会以某种方式攻击比特币，他们一定会通过某些手段来实现。
If we want to think that nation states will try to attack Bitcoin in some ways, they will do it through ways.
所以我更希望看到的是无害类型的数据。
So I'd rather much prefer I prefer it to be benign things.
而且，我只是觉得，成千上万新比特币用户加入的叙事，被现有传统比特币社区严重低估了。
And, also, I just think that the onboarding narrative of thousands, tons of new Bitcoin users is underappreciated by the existing legacy Bitcoin community.
这就是我的观点。
So that's my opinion.
是的。
Yeah.
你对目前这些垃圾信息是否可能构成实际危险有什么看法？
What's your take on whether any of, you know, the spam can actually be dangerous right now?
对吧？
Right?
显然，人们担心非法数据。
Obviously, there's concern around illegal data.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
你对此怎么看？
Where are you at on that?
政府可能会。
Governments could.
国家机构可能会查看比特币上的非法内容，并将其作为攻击手段。
State entities could, look at illegal stuff on Bitcoin and use it as an attack vector.
我认为这是无法阻止的。
I think that is impossible to stop.
所以，这种类型的信息以这种格式呈现，与Pubgis中的信息在实质上是不同的，这也很不连贯。
So to it's also very incoherent that, like, this type of information in this format is materially different than information in, like, Pubgis.
比如，随意区分非连续的小数据推送和大数据块，或者认为比特币上的公钥或哈希信息本质上毫无意义，这都非常奇怪。
Like, the like, it's very weird to draw an arbitrary distinction between non contiguous data in smaller data pushes versus larger data blobs, or the truly unsensible nature of information in pubkeys or, like, hashes on Bitcoin.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
让我花两秒钟为听众解释一下。
Let me just take a second here just to explain for listeners.
对吧？
Right?
因为，显然，你和我都明白，但对于听众来说，不管我们喜不喜欢，现在有多种方式可以把数据垃圾注入比特币。
Because, obviously, you and I both get it, but for the listeners, there are various way now whether we like it or not, there are various ways to spam data into Bitcoin.
对吧？
Right?
公开的，是的。
There public yeah.
比如，如果你分解一笔交易，会涉及到公钥、签名、脚本等，人们可以通过多种方式向这些部分注入垃圾数据。
Like, in if you break down a transaction, there's things like public keys, there's signatures, there's scripts, and there are various ways that people can spam into those.
对吧？
Right?
例如，OP_RETURN 是一种特殊的输出类型。
So for example, op return is a special kind of output.
我想，关于连续数据的最大容量，这些争论一直在反复进行。
And I guess some of these arguments are going back and forth on what is the maximum size of contiguous data.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，这成了节点和10过滤器讨论的一个焦点，但后来也有人反驳说，等等。
And so that became a talking point from the, let's say, the knots and the one ten filter And this has also been argued back because people were saying, well, hang on.
即使在Taproot铭文封装中，理论上你也可以这样放入400KB的数据。
Even in the taproot inscription envelope, you could have theoretically just put in 400 kilobytes that way.
那为什么现在要对100千字节这么大惊小怪呢？
So why are making a big deal about a 100 kilobytes now?
然后反对的声音说：不，不是这样的。
And then the argument back comes, well, no.
但你这是在让人更容易操作。
But you're making it easier for people.
以前做100千字节的op_return更困难，于是我们又陷入争论：等等。
And before, it was harder to do 100 kilobyte op return, and then we get into arguments of like, well, hang on.
有些人早在Core v30之前就已经在使用100千字节的op_return了，那为什么现在偏偏对Core v30这么大惊小怪？
Some people were doing 100 kilobyte op return even before Core v 30, so why are making a big deal now about Core v 30?
所以这些观点来回交锋，但我想知道，这种‘连续性’论点的核心立场到底是什么？
So there's all these different arguments back and forth, but I guess this point of contiguity, what is the steel man of that argument?
比如，这真的能让解码和转换变得容易很多吗？
Like, is it actually that much easier to decode and transform?
因为，我想再明确一点给听众：这取决于你怎么说。
Because, like, I guess one other point just to make clear for listeners, you it depends how you say it.
对吧？
Right?
但最终，比特币区块链的数据，你知道的，是十六进制数据。
But, ultimately, Bitcoin blockchain data is, you know, it's hex data.
你必须实际选择交易，解码它，将其转换为图像或某种非法数据。
You have to actually, you know, select the transaction, you know, decode it, transform it into an image or some kind of illegal data.
所以，关于这一点存在一些争议。
So, you know, there's a bit of a point of contention around that.
我认为这个论点似乎是，社区需要反对链上出现非法数据，而连续数据正是那些过滤器支持者想要阻止或至少尝试阻止的其中之一。
And I think the argument seems to be, well, the community needs to speak out against illegal data being on on chain and and contiguous data is one of the things that, you know, the the filter guys want to stop or at least try to stop.
是的。
Yeah.
关于连续数据的最强论点，我认为这可能是我对过滤器论点的最佳诠释：他们希望对他们认为是垃圾信息的行为增加额外成本。
The the steel man for contiguous data, and I do think that this is probably the best I can steel man the filter argument is that they want to impose additional cost to what they consider to be spam.
所以，我认为这是他们最有力的角度。
And so I do think that's the strongest angle that they have.
我认为这忽视了我们已经通过区块空间定价实现这一点的事实，这暗示着比特币网络尚未优先考虑对链上内容施加成本并设定限制。
I think this ignores the fact that we have already done this through block space pricing, and it implies that this hasn't already been a thing that the Bitcoin network has prioritized, putting a cost to what you can put on chain and having a a limit to that.
我们为此打过一场完整的战争。
We fought a whole war over that.
我只是想说，我知道我们比特币爱好者喜欢把自己视为具有对抗思维的人。
And I do just wanna you know, there is this I get that we Bitcoiners want to think of ourselves as adversarially minded.
我们倾向于认为国家想要攻击比特币，并会利用法律手段之类的方式。
We want to say, well, we want to imagine that the state wants to we want that the state wants to attack Bitcoin and that they will leverage legal means and stuff like that.
我认同这种观点。
I I share that view.
但如果在共识层面试图减少比特币可能面临的法律攻击，我认为这是我能想象到的最懦弱的心态。
I think if you are to, at a consensus level, try to reduce potential legal attacks for Bitcoin, that is the most fucking cucked mindset I can ever imagine.
抱歉。
So sorry.
你可以把这句话消音，但我觉得从协议设计层面来说，比特币不应该受我们对几个政府可能行为的猜测所影响。
You could bleep that out, but, like, I just think that Bitcoin at a protocol design level should not be affected by what we think a couple governments might do.
如果真是这样，那我认为我们应该对比特币协议的设计采取更多其他越来越妥协的立场，而不仅仅只是这样。
So if that were the case, then I think we should take a lot of other, I would say, increasingly cocked positions on how we design Bitcoin as a protocol and not just, like, be that.
所以，试图以发布法律数据为由来反对它，这是一个非常不连贯的论点，因为合法性是基于你所居住的司法管辖区而定的任意概念。
So I think it's a very incoherent argument to, like, try to argue against, like, posting legal data because legality is an arbitrary, definition based upon which jurisdiction you live in.
在美国非法的东西，在其他国家并不违法。
What is illegal in The United States is not illegal in other countries.
对我来说，这就像说世界上存在邪恶一样。
And to me, that would be like the same thing as saying there is evil.
有些图像，我们社会认为是道德败坏且邪恶的。
There are evil images that we as a society consider to be morally bankrupt and evil.
但在中国，这些图像的定义却不同，因为他们会审查中国的信息自由，比如‘坦克人’的照片。
But the definition of those image is different in China because they will they censor freedom information in China, like the tank man image.
那正是我最早刻录在比特币上的一条内容。
That's one of the first things I inscribed on Bitcoin.
所以我认为，关于何为合法或非法的规范性道德定义，在比特币协议设计层面是无关紧要的。
So I think that these normative moral definitions of what is illegal and not legal, are not relevant in the protocol at the protocol design level for Bitcoin.
所以，是的。
So, yeah.
我很难很好地为过滤器论点做最强辩护。
I cannot steel man the filter argument very well.
我可以很好地为其他协议变更立场做最强辩护，我认为，因为很多人会把我当成核心支持者或核心追随者，但其实我不是。
I can steel man other positions on, like, other protocol changes really well, I think, because a lot of people will frame me as a core supporter or core sycophant, and I'm not really.
有趣的是，我长期以来一直支持客户端多样性。
What's funny is, I'm I'm I'm long time pro client diversity.
最大的讽刺在于，我非常希望看到更多人运行不同的客户端。
This is the great irony is that I love to see more people running different clients.
非核心的、功能性的客户端生态非常稀疏和薄弱。
The landscape for, like, functional clients, which are not core, is very sparse and thin.
而Knots是Core的分叉，因此很难说它真正有显著差异，除了它多了些可调参数。
And because knots is a fork of core, it's, like, very hard to actually say that's very differentiated other than it's got, you know, more knobs.
新Luke会因为我这种简化比较而狠狠批评我。
A new Luke will eviscerate me for making that reductionist comparison.
但我希望看到更多样化的客户端群体。
But I want a more diverse client set.
所以，你知道，最近核心团队任命了一位专注于比特币内核、并试图将共识机制剥离出来的维护者，我非常支持这种做法，因为我认为，对于一个设计上具有强大对抗性的比特币网络来说，我们必须设想一个没有单一项目主导并成为比特币共识事实标准的世界。
So, you know, the recent core appointee to talk you know, the core maintainer who's focusing on, like, the Bitcoin kernel and, like, pulling out consensus, I love to see that because I think for a robust adversarial adversarially designed Bitcoin network, it's very important for us to imagine a world where there is not a leading project which defines, like which is a de facto definition of of core of Bitcoin consensus.
这很有趣，因为如果你持这种观点，你可能会以为我是Notts的支持者，但其实我不是，因为我相信Notts并不适合成为强大且权威的参考客户端。
So it's funny because, like, you would think if you were to take that view, you'd think I'd be like a Notts guy, but I'm not really because I believe that Notts is not positioned for a robust dominant reference client.
但我确实喜欢看到人们终于开始意识到它们之间的区别了。
But I do like that people are finally knowing they finally know the difference.
比如，几年前普通用户根本分不清这些区别。
Like, the average user didn't know the difference probably years ago.
而现在，尽管出于一些反直觉的原因，参与这些争论的普通用户和参与者似乎确实能区分客户端、共识机制和其他内容了。
And now for all of it, like, I think, perverse reasons, the average person and user who's involved in these arguments probably does differentiate between, like, client, consensus, and, other stuff.
我认为，拥有这些工具和语言对于奠定比特币未来十年的发展基础至关重要。
And even, like, having those tools and language is really important, I think, to set up the next decade of Bitcoin growth.
是的。
Yeah.
所以从不同的比特币客户端来看，总的来说，看到各种各样的客户端确实很好。
So in terms of, like, different, you know, Bitcoin clients, obviously, I think generally speaking, yeah, it's nice to see different kinds of clients.
主要的当然是比特币核心（Bitcoin Core）。
The main ones, obviously, Bitcoin Core.
并没有。
There's not.
比如BTCD，它主要用于闪电网络和Utriexo之类的项目，还有个叫bitcoin的，你知道的，
There's, like, BTCD, which kind of is used for, like, Lightning stuff and Utriexo stuff, and then there's a little bitcoin by, you know,
你对这个感到奇怪吗？
If you're if you're, weird, like, with that?
一个用Terry写的操作系统。
A Terry written OS.
它就像是比特币界的Temple OS。
It's like the temple OS of Bitcoin
客户端。
clients.
所以不管怎样，我觉得有趣的是，这场争论被简化为是否要调用，但实际上更像是过滤派与分散群体之间的分歧。
So anyway, I think the the that's kind of the funny thing because the debate is kind of being summed up as, oh, just call versus not, but it's more just like the filter camp versus the disparate groups.
对吧？
Right?
因为有不同的观点。
Because there are different views.
对吧？
Right?
即使是你我的观点，甚至在这方面也有所不同。
Even your and my your view and my view view is different on this even.
对吧？
Right?
因为我们对什么构成垃圾信息的看法不同。
Because we would have different views of what constitutes spam.
是的。
Yeah.
但与此同时，我仍然认为BIP10是错误的路径。
But at the same time, I still think BIP one ten is the wrong pathway.
我的意思是，我不觉得这对网络来说是正确的举措。
Like, I just don't I don't think it's the right move for the network.
是的。
Yeah.
好吧，我们来探讨一下这个问题。
Well, let's go let's go to that question.
在你看来，我想我是这么看的。
Like, in your view like, I guess here's how I see it.
我认为，基本上，BRC-20印章、JPEG文件，我把它们都视为比特币上的垃圾信息，但区别在于这相当大。
I think, basically, b r c 20 stamps, JPEGs, I consider those as spam on Bitcoin, but the difference is That's a fair bit.
我不认为我有很好的方法来阻止它们。
Don't think I necessarily have a good way to stop them.
所以这可能是，但你该怎么使用它呢？
So that's probably the probably but how do you use it?
真的存在垃圾信息这种东西吗，是的。
Is there such a thing as spam Yeah.
而这正是
And that's the,
在邮件列表的前几周，基本上讨论的就是这个。
that's what was basically discussed on the mailing list the first couple weeks.
安德鲁·波尔斯特有一篇标志性帖子，他讨论了区块空间重新定价、对垃圾信息施加额外成本、减少任意数据的方法，但这些都指出，这些措施不会产生实质性影响，而且任何此类做法都会违背比特币的核心原则。
There's a iconic post from Andrew Polstra where he addresses block space repricing, like, ability to impose additional cost to spam, ways to reduce arbitrary data, and all of these said this none of these would have a material effect, and any doing any of these would invalidate, like, the core principles of Bitcoin.
我当时就想，好吧。
And I was like, okay.
很好。
Great.
所以我读了那篇帖子，然后就想，好吧。
And so I read that, and I was like, okay.
我不觉得这是一个关乎存亡的问题。
I I don't feel like this is a a existential issue.
我认为，一个更大的根本性问题是，正常交易并没有将许多用户认为是垃圾信息的内容排除出去。
I think it's a much bigger existential issue that normal transactions are not pricing out what many users consider to be spam.
我们已经从经验中看到，你所说的垃圾信息对费率非常敏感。
We've seen empirically that what you call spam is very reflexive to fee rate.
它对费率非常敏感。
It's very sensitive to fee rate.
当我们没有像BRC-20这样的主要代币发行时，比如我们只看到一些JPEG图片，它们对成本非常敏感。
We see that when we don't have these major, like, secondary token mints like BRC twenties, when it's like we're looking at, like, just JPEGs, they're very cost sensitive.
即使在每字节10到100聪的费率范围内，它们占用的区块空间也会大幅减少。
Even around, like, a 100 to one 10 to, like, a 100 SAS per V byte, they dramatically fall off in, like, how how much block space they take up.
所以，我想说，如果我们看到比特币上出现更多真正的货币活动，或者在更动态的费率市场中出现更高的平均费率，这些内容自然就会被排除出去。
So, like, I would say that if we were to see more actual, like, monetary activity on Bitcoin or to see, like, average higher fee rates in a more dynamic fee rate market, we would naturally see this stuff priced out.
我们可以回溯测试并观察这一点。
We can back test this and look.
你可以观察并发现，这些内容确实会减少，它们确实会被定价排除。
And you can look and say that these things do reduce they they they do they are priced out.
至于二级代币，祝你好运，老兄。
And then as far as, like, secondary tokens go, best of luck, man.
那些投机者会继续投机，但他们的热度持续时间非常短。
The degens are gonna degen, but they have a really quick half life.
如果比特币无法应对这种剧烈的波动和投机活动，那我真的不知道我们还能做什么。
So if Bitcoin can't handle crazy spikes and speculative activity, then I don't know what we do.
所以，再次说明，我们还有很多细微之处和可以深入探讨的细节。
And so, again, there's lots of, like, little nuances and rabbit holes that we can go into.
是的。
Yeah.
但我只是想确保这场对话对大家来说是易懂且有教育意义的。
But I'm just trying to make sure the conversation is accessible and, you know, educational for people.
对。
Yeah.
但让我们来探讨一下这个概念：如果某些用于刷链的路径被政策或共识阻断——比如BIP110计划旨在限制某种特定的交易规模，他们试图彻底禁止所谓的Taproot铭文封装，这是一种投机者用来将JPEG文件注入链上的特定脚本方法。
But let's go to this concept of if certain pathways for spamming the chain are blocked off, either by policy or by consensus as is the plan as is the BIP one ten plan restricting, let's say, opera term below a certain size, and they are trying to basically outlaw the what's known as the taproot inscription envelope, which is a specific, like, scripting, you know, method that the spammer guys are using to spam their JPEGs into the chain.
而且不仅仅是JPEG。
And not just JPEGs.
对吧？
Right?
因为实际上有很多这种链上铭文，字节价值很小，或者就是是的。
Because there are there actually are a lot of these kind of small value in terms of bytes on chain inscriptions or, like, just Yeah.
指的是什么？
In terms of what?
还有。
Also.
就原始交易数量而言，99%都是代币铸造。
Just for context for, like, in terms of, like, raw transaction numbers, it's, 99% token mints.
就区块空间占用而言，大约30%是JPEG，70%是可替代代币铸造，也就是我们所说的那种你可能称之为垃圾信息的类别。
In terms of block space used, roughly it's like 30% JPEGs, 70% fungible token mints of that like category that we call that you might call spam.
我并没有完全认同这一点。
I'm not conceding this totally.
我会直接采用'Yeah'的语义。
I'll just, you know, adopt the semantics for Yeah.
为了更好地交流。
To have a good conversation.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
所以，从你的角度看，BIP-110 是否能阻止或显著遏制垃圾信息呢？
And so, I mean, tell us from your perspective, does BIP one ten either stop or meaningfully curb spam or, you know yeah.
在你看来，它是否能有效阻止或遏制垃圾信息？
Does it meaningfully stop or curb spam in your view?
不能。
No.
它会阻止当前在链上投放垃圾信息的手段。
It would stop the existing, tactics to put spam on chain.
所以，很多问题在于无法提前一步思考，即你无法控制二级市场会怎么做。
So a lot of this is not being able to think one step ahead, which is the you cannot control what the secondary market will do.
二级市场自有其自身的激励机制。
The secondary market will will will will do will will have incentives of its own.
这对外部的比特币来说是外生的。
It's it's exogenous to Bitcoin.
二级市场对于这类数据，可以使用某些数据嵌入方案。
What the secondary market can do for these types of data is they can use certain data embedding schemes.
BIP 110 摧毁了大多数流行的此类数据嵌入方案。
110 nukes the majority of those data embedding schemes that are popular.
但若对这类交易仍存在经济需求，它们就会演变为使用其他手段，而用来在链上嵌入任意数据的手段实际上有无穷多种。
What can happen though is if there's still economic demand for these types of transactions, they will evolve into using different tactics, and there are an effective infinite number of tactics you can use to put arbitrary data on chain.
因此，最终你会经历大量的挣扎与哀叹，以极大的精神代价，执行一次所谓的软分叉。
So what will happen is you will you will through much, you know, gnashing of teeth and wailing, you will somehow, at great expense to your sanity, execute a soft fork, we call it.
我们会说 BIP 110，它摧毁了这些已知的、或流行的嵌入数据的方式。
We'll say one ten, which which nukes nukes like these known ways of embedding or the, you know, the popular ways of embedding data.
但对于大型垃圾信息生态系统来说，进化其策略的难度要低好几个数量级。
But it is asymmetrically, by several orders of magnitude, less difficult for the big spam ecosystem to evolve and its tactics.
因此，仅仅因为这种行为的新颖性和显著性，就会出现新的垃圾信息嵌入策略，并在这些数据减少的软分叉中变得流行。
And so just the novelty and, like, you know, conspicuous nature of this, like, there will be new spam embedding tactics, which will be popular, in this new data reduced data soft fork.
你知道，我实际上要借用一下，老兄，这个。
You know, there is I'll actually steal, man, this.
你可以辩称，你可以传递一个社交信号，而且你可以。
You can argue that you can send a social signal, and you can.
我会从定性上说，这个社交信号反而加剧了这些垃圾信息发送者的敌意，让他们觉得这简直是胡扯。
I will qualitatively say that the social signal has only boosted the, like, antagonism from these spammers to say this is such bullshit.
我们根本不想做这种事。
Like, we don't want to do this.
事实上，我认为这激怒了许多原本持中立态度的人，因为很多人其实根本不在乎这件事，尤其是许多比特币开发者。
And in fact, I think it's antagonized people who are who are largely neutral because a lot of people really didn't care about this, especially, like, a lot of the Bitcoin devs.
他们觉得：对NFT不感兴趣，对代币也不感兴趣，但我真的不关心这个。
They're like, not really into NFTs, not really into tokens, but I don't really care about this.
但反垃圾邮件、支持过滤的论点变得如此难以忍受，并且与本质上非常反自由的论点交织在一起，我认为这激怒了许多原本持中立态度的人，因为他们觉得这一方的立场令人憎恶。
But, the anti spam, the pro filter arguments became so intolerable and, like, interwoven with essentially, like, like, very anti freedom arguments that I think it antagonized a lot of people who were previously pretty neutral because they find the one ten camp so abhorrent.
所以你实际上可以看到，我举了罗布·汉密尔顿的例子，他是个真正的中立人物，他总是提出反对过滤的论点，而他本身并不是一个JPEG爱好者。
So you actually see I I use, like, Rob Hamilton, who is, like, a true neutral character, And he's always, like, making anti anti filter arguments, and he is not really a a JPEG guy.
他在整个事件中设法与所有人保持友好关系，但最终却树敌无数，成了过滤派眼中的头号公敌。
He somehow managed to be friends with everybody during this, and he's finally made some enemies and become an enemy number one in, like, the the filter among the filter camps.
所以，像这样的人其实还有很多，不只是罗布。
So, like, there's a lot more of those type of people who are not just Rob.
他只是更显眼一些而已。
They're just he's a more prominent one.
因此，你看到了来自原本沉默的大多数中立比特币用户对10的抵制，因为他们认为这本质上是反自由的，或者说是违背比特币平等接入原则的。
So, like, you know, you've seen an alignment against one ten from, like, the previously the I would say the silent majority of neutral Bitcoiners, because they view it as anti freedom, largely, or just against Bitcoin, like, Bitcoin equal access, you might say.
所以
So
所以，正如我所说，你和我对垃圾邮件的看法不同，但在某种程度上，我们的结论却相似：我不认为这对比特币是正确的事情。
And so, yeah, as I said, you and I have different views on spam, but in a way, we sort of land in a similar way of, like, I don't think this is the right thing for Bitcoin.
即使我从未自己在链上发送垃圾信息，我也不会支持它。
Even if I never spammed the chain myself, I don't endorse it.
我不喜欢它。
I don't like it.
但有时候它就像新冠疫情一样。
But sometime it's just like COVID.
有时候就像封锁措施。
Sometime the lockdowns.
有时候，治疗比疾病本身更糟糕。
Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.
你知道吗？
You know?
这些人说的是，哦，这只是暂时的。
Like, these people are sort of saying, oh, it's only temporary.
是的。
Yeah.
我们以前在哪里听过这种说法？
Where have we heard that before?
嘿。
Hey.
仅仅两周就能阻止传播。
Just two weeks to stop the spread.
你知道的？
You know?
我们就只是，你知道的？
We're just gonna you know?
然后还有这些类似的相似之处。
And then there's all these, like, elements of parallels.
当然，另一方会有很多争论，说我们歪曲了他们的观点，等等各种问题。
Now, of course, there'll be a lot of arguments from the other side about, oh, y'all misrepresenting them, this, that, and the other.
我们没时间深入每一个细节，否则这期播客得六个小时了。
We don't have time to get into every little nook and cranny because otherwise, be six hour podcast.
时间。
Time.
所以，我试着做到，你知道的？
So, like, I try to, like, be you know?
你只能进行一小时左右的对话。
You can only have, like, an hour long conversation too.
所以，要全面讨论的话，得花一个月。
So, like, to be exhaustive, it would take a month.
那会像一个六小时的播客。
It'd be like a six hour podcast.
我们不会那样做。
We're not gonna do that.
但我们就聊聊一些关键点吧。
But, like, let's just talk about some of the key points.
对吧？
Right?
所以我认为这一点可能并没有被很好地理解。
So I think this is probably not a very well understood point.
对吧？
Right?
所以，假设BIP10现在，这可能性非常低。
So let's say BIP one now, again, it's very unlikely.
我上次查看相关预测市场时，概率大概不到5%。
Last I checked on a prediction market for this, it's like less it's like 5%.
甚至这个数字可能还高估了BIP10在比特币最重链上成功激活的概率。
And even that might be overstating the probability of success of one ten of BIP one ten here.
但仅以举例来说，如果BIP10确实被激活在比特币最重链上，我认为它仍然可能遭到垃圾信息攻击。
But just for example's sake, if BIP one ten does get activated on the heaviest chain in Bitcoin and it gets activated, I think it is likely to still get spammed.
他们可能会说，没关系，至少这不是连续的。
Now they might say, well, that's fine, at least it's not contiguous.
但你已经见过不同的观点，因为他们说，实际上，我们还会继续进行软分叉。
But you've seen different arguments on that because they've said, well, actually, we're gonna also keep soft forking.
问题是，你们打算进行多少轮这样的操作呢？
And it's like, well, how many rounds of these are you guys gonna do
你可以。
You can.
为了尝试，你知道的？
To try to you know?
想一想。
Think about it.
比如，BIP10最初被定位为紧急提案，原定目标是三周前就激活。
Like, one ten was originally framed as urgent, an emergency one that would have activated three weeks ago was the original target.
最初的目标日期是2026年2月1日。
It was originally 02/01/2026.
很多人忘了，时间线一再推迟，目标不断移动，风险不断让步。
A lot of people forget that it just the timeline keeps being pushed back, and there's and they keep moving goalposts and and and risk and and giving ground.
但，是的，你可以继续承诺更多的未来软分叉。
But, like, yeah, you can continue you can commit to more future soft works.
但你猜怎么着？
But guess what?
这和我们在区块大小问题上不想做的事很相似，当时我们没有把提高区块大小作为设计目标，主要原因并不是因为存在一个完美的区块大小。
That's a similar thing that we didn't want to do during the block size where a lot of the reason why we didn't commit to raising the block size as a design goal was not necessarily because there is a perfect block size.
我会因为这个观点被抨击，但真正的原因是我们不想对未来的区块大小共识讨论做出承诺。
I will get crucified for this, but rather because we don't want to commit to future consensus discussion on block size.
当时还有其他一些原因，但这一点是主要的。
There's a bunch of other reasons that were going on, but, like, that was a big one.
我们不能总是陷入争论：今年要不要再增加两兆字节的区块大小？这不符合良好的协议设计和共识原则。
We cannot like, it is not a good protocol design and good for consensus to have to always be fighting, like, do we increase the block size another two megabytes this year?
所以。
So.
对。
Right.
当时人们认为有几个关键目标：解决交易可塑性问题、二次哈希问题以及其他一些问题，当然还包括启用闪电网络等。
It was seen as a now there were a few things there, fixing transaction malleability and quadratic hashing and this, that, and the other, and, obviously, enabling lightning, etcetera.
但没错，这也被视为对大区块路径的拒绝。
But, yes, it was also seen as a rejection of the big block pathway.
它被认为是一种采用分层方法的信号。
It was seen as like, we're gonna do this layered approach.
我们会采用闪电网络，未来可能还有其他二层方案，而现在我们已经有一些这样的二层方案了。
We're gonna do lightning and maybe other l twos in future, and now we have some of those other l twos.
我们稍后再谈这个。
We'll get to that later.
但是的。
But Yeah.
关于垃圾信息问题，你能为我们详细解释一下吗？或者说明一下，博弈论——也许‘博弈论’这个词不太恰当——但这里的激励机制是什么？
Let's just on the spam question, can you maybe elaborate or explain for us a little bit what would the game theory or what maybe game theory is a a dumb word, but what's the incentive?
系统会如何应对？
What's the system gonna do?
简单来说，如果凯西和那些奇怪的索引者不得不去寻找新的垃圾信息攻击方式，比如新的脚本路径之类的，或者我见过其他一些方式——虽然我不支持或推广这些做法——但确实存在其他攻击途径。
Like, basically, can you talk us through what it would look like if Casey and and the odd guys, the odd indexer, they're gonna have to go figure out a new spam vector, which is like a new scripting pathway or whatever, or even some I've seen the again, not endorsing or promoting, but there are other vectors of doing this.
对吧？
Right?
有邮票。
There's stamps.
这是什么？
There is this what's it?
Audi knots，Taproot 团队，然后还有个叫 BPUB 的人，他直接在公钥里大量发送垃圾信息。
Audi knots, the Taproot guys, And then there's someone called BPUB, which is, like, literally spamming into, like, the pub keys.
是的。
So Yeah.
你能给我们详细讲讲接下来会怎样吗？
Can you just talk us through what would the next steps be?
比如说，如果一个 ten 被阻止了。
Like, let's say one ten gets stopped.
下一个垃圾信息传播途径是什么？它比当前的更昂贵吗？
What's the next spamming vector, and is it more costly than the current?
再假设，贵多少呢？
And let's say, how much more costly?
我们说的是贵5%、50%还是100%？
Are we talking, like, 5% more costly, 50% more costly, a 100% more costly?
你能给我们一个大概的概念吗？
Can you give us an idea?
可能会更贵。
It could be more costly.
很可能就是如此。
It probably will.
我得逐个分析每个方案。
I would have to look at each scheme.
大概Casey和其他对这些烂事感到厌烦的人，都会去查看哪种数据嵌入方案最便宜、最用户友好，然后直接更新ORD客户端。
Probably what Casey would do and probably a lot of other people who are just frustrated with all this bullshit would just look and see which data embedding scheme is the cheapest and and most user friendly if we just update the org client.
因为对听众来说，存在一个独立的软件，用来查看比特币区块并解读其中的数据，我们称之为ORD，也就是Ord客户端，它让你通过序数的视角，看到比特币上那些有趣的内容。
Because for the listeners, like, there is a separate software that you run to look at the Bitcoin blocks and interpret the data inside there, and that we call the ORD, the Ord client, and it lets you see through your ordinal's lens, the the fun stuff that's on Bitcoin.
所以，客户端会更新如何查看区块链的方式，或者Casey会更新到一种新的方案，以不同的方式查看区块链。
So what would happen is the client would just update how or Casey would, update to a new new scheme to just look at the blockchain differently.
因此，这样做会相当简单。
And so, it would it would it would be fairly trivial to do.
我不确定他们会选择哪种方案，老实说。
I don't know which scheme they would choose, honestly.
我觉得得看看，Scrum，我得查一下。
I think scrum, man, I'd have to look.
你这问题让我措手不及了。
This is you caught me off guard here.
我得具体看看它是如何识别Taproot支出脚本的推送的。
I'd have to look at specifically how not identifies the the Taproot spend script pushes.
我觉得这跟op_zero或者op_one之类的有关。
I think it's I think it's something to do with, like, the op zero or op one, whatever.
是的。
Yeah.
而且实际上这是硬编码进去的。
And they would so it's kind of actually hard coded in.
所以你还有其他方式可以把它们放在见证数据中。
So there's other ways you could put it in the witness data.
而且
And
对。
Right.
举个例子，我听说有人讨论过，因为他们正在Tapscript中移除OP_IF。
So as an example, I've heard I've seen some people talk about because they're taking away op if in Tapscript.
对吧？
Right?
因为这是Taproot的编码方式之一，或者我记不清确切的编码了，但人们一直在讨论，你可以用OP_NOT_IF，或者其他脚本机制来实现。
Because that's one of the that's the taproot or I I forgot the exact encoding, but people have been talking about, well, you could use op not if or there are other scripting mechanisms to do that.
我觉得这会是简单又首选的方式。
I think that'll be, like, the easy preferred one.
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所以这可能是凯西会优先选择的方案之一。
So maybe that's, like, one of the top candidates that Casey would choose.
但其他人会有他们自己的垃圾信息攻击方式。
But other people will have their own spamming vectors.
也许他们会采取其他做法。
Maybe they'll do something else.
谁知道呢？
Like, who knows?
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为你对市场感知
So I you the market sense
它会贵多少吗？
of how much more expensive it would be?
因为这可能是一个重要的观点。
Because that's probably an important point.
对吧？
Right?
如果你是Nuts或110的粉丝，正在听或看，或者根本不喜欢这些内容，你可能想知道，如果他们被迫采用下一个最佳的垃圾信息机制，成本会高出多少？
If you're a nuts or a one ten fan listening or hate listening or hate watching or whatever, you probably wanna get a sense how much more expensive is it if if they get pushed to using the next best spamming mechanism?
我不记得具体数字了。
So I don't have the numbers off my top of my head.
而且，说实话，我还没仔细研究过不同方案的具体成本有多高。
Also, haven't, like actually, I haven't looked at this like, haven't looked at exactly how expensive, different schemes are.
我觉得，大概是贵两到三倍的样子。
It's I would say, like, two x, three x more expensive sounds like
嗯，整个来说，好吧。
Kind of that whole Okay.
可能是吧。
Could be yeah.
而且我也觉得这不太可能对生态系统产生实质性影响。
And I also don't really think that would materially change that would materially change the ecosystem.
我们现在每字节是1个sats，所以如果你要在比特币上放一个脏JPEG，成本将是每字节3个sats，而我们并没有看到JPEG的成本显著高于使用公钥的情况——公钥可能是最贵的。
We're sitting at one sap per v right now, so that would be an effective, like, if you're gonna put a dirty JPEG on Bitcoin, it's gonna cost you three saps per v byte, and we don't see JPEGs materially costing more than If you're gonna do pubkeys, gonna it's be probably the most expensive.
也许会是10倍，但我们并没有看到JPEG在每字节8到10个sats以上时明显减少。
Maybe it's 10 x, and we don't really see JPEGs drop off at the eight to 10 sapprov byte level above that.
这在很大程度上取决于市场。
Like, it's kind of dependent on the market.
但，是的，如果你能对JPEG施加100倍的成本，我敢肯定它们会消亡，或者至少会像我认为的那样，变得非常特别。
But, like, yeah, if you could impose a 100 cost, a 100 x cost on JPEGs, I'm pretty sure they'd, like, die, or they'd be what I think to I think is they would just become much more special.
所以你真正做的是，把所有那些低劣、敷衍的内容都过滤掉，让比特币变成一个更像高端艺术区块链的东西——嘿，我可能更喜欢这样，因为我并不喜欢看那些愚蠢的东西。
So what you'd really do is you'd really just call all of the really bullshit low effort stuff, and you'd make Bitcoin more of like a a fine art blockchain, which, hey, I would probably prefer that because I don't like looking at a I don't like I don't like I don't like looking at the dumb stuff.
我是个艺术家，所以我希望比特币稀缺的区块空间能被用作更高端的区块空间。
I'm I'm an artist, so I I like, I like, Bitcoin's scarce block space to be used more, as a more premium block space.
但在没人使用比特币、手续费还很低的时候，你们尽管用吧。
But while nobody's using Bitcoin right now, like, while fees are low, like, have at it.
我其实并不在意。
I don't really care.
在你看来，你预测Ordinance生态系统未来会迎来大复苏，还是认为它现在处于低谷期？
In your view, do you predict, like, the Ordinance ecosystem making a big comeback in the future, or do you think it's kind of it's in a lull?
你觉得它现在处于什么状态？
Like, where do you see that?
因为有些人可能会说，嘿。
Because some people might say, well, hey.
也许这只是一个短暂的潮流，已经结束了。
Maybe it's just like it was a fad and it's over.
或者你觉得不是这样？
Or do you think, no.
它会回来吗？或者现在它在哪里？
It's coming back or, like, where is it now?
不会。
No.
我真的不知道。
I have no I really don't know.
我的意思是，我拥有大量序数币，而且经常会为了好玩而做铭文。
I mean, I own a lot of ordinals, and I will make inscriptions for fun all the time.
在它们还没价值的时候我就开始做了，现在我依然出于兴趣和爱好继续这么做。
I did it before they had value, and I I continue to do it for fun kind of as a personal interest and hobby.
我其实没卖多少它们。
I don't really sell many of them.
我卖过一些，但主要是因为别人一直求我给它们。
I've sold a few, but it's mainly because people are, like, begging me for them.
当然了。
But sure.
我不确定。
And I don't know.
我觉得其中一些会回来。
I think a few of them will come back.
我觉得这取决于比特币本身是否获得买盘，我也认为这取决于比特币链上经济的增长。
I think it's dependent on Bitcoin itself getting a bid, and I also think it's dependent on the on chain economy of Bitcoin increasing.
因为我觉得，你看这些链上二级资产的价格，通常在链上活动增多时会上涨，无论这些活动是堕落的、货币性的，还是介于两者之间的任何东西。
Because I think that, you see largely that the price of these, like, secondary on chain assets, increase when more shit's happening on chain, whether it be both degenerate and monetary and everything in between.
对。
Right.
所以你的意思是，这和牛市有点相关。
So you're saying it's kinda correlated to just bull runs.
比如，如果我们有比特币牛市，谁知道什么时候会来？
Like, if we have a Bitcoin bull run, who knows when?
你觉得这可能会引发一波反弹，或者导致链上垃圾序数活动之类的重新活跃起来？
You think that might have a resurgence or lead that might lead to a resurgence in spam ordinal activity, let's say, or whatever.
这会带来这些活动的再次繁荣。
It will lead to a resurgence in more activity of those things.
我不确定那些已经存在的资产会怎样，因为这似乎独立于它们通常的情况
I don't know if, like, the existing assets which are out there, I don't know what'll happen to those because that's, like, independent of they tend
但我们只是在讨论生态系统，而不是单个代币。
but we're just be talking about the ecosystem, not individual tokens.
它们往往
They tend
更感兴趣。
to get more interested.
更多人正在比特币上做各种事情，这很好，但我真的不知道。
More people are doing shit on Bitcoin, which is great, but I really have no idea.
我真希望它们能上涨，因为这意味着，说来奇怪的是，这些投机者在技术层面迅速超越了普通的比特币普通用户。
I would love for them to go up because it means that, like, these like, the what one crazy thing is that the degens very quickly started running circles at a technical level around the average, like, Bitcoin pleb user.
普通投机者对Tapscript的理解要深入得多。
The average degen has a much more sophisticated understanding of Tapscript.
如果你看看内存池的话。
If you look at the mempool.
空间捐赠，全是JPEG图片。
Space donations, it's all JPEGs.
因为这些是比特币上的高级用户，所以我希望比特币能有一个庞大的顶层入口，吸引人们使用它，即使是为了投机目的，因为我认为这会带来更多的比特币用户、更精通比特币的用户，而且他们通常对比特币项目的支持非常慷慨。
Because, like, these are power users on Bitcoin, and so I want Bitcoin to have this giant top of funnel to lure people into using it, even if it's for speculative means, because I think that results in net more Bitcoin users, net more sophisticated Bitcoin users, and they tend to be very liberal with their support of Bitcoin projects.
所以我认为这对生态系统有好处。
So I think that's good for the ecosystem.
你如何看待这种说法？这似乎是过滤派提出的另一种道德或声誉层面的论点。
What do you make of this so this seems to be kind of another moral or ethical reputational kind of argument we see from the filter camp.
他们给你一种印象，即如果人们看到比特币充满了JPEG图片而非货币活动，就会损害比特币的声誉，或让它成为更差的货币。
They sort of give you this idea that, well, if people look at Bitcoin and see that it's filled with JPEGs and not monetary activity, that that somehow harms the reputation of Bitcoin or makes it a worse money.
那你对此有何看法？
So what would you say to that?
Ordinals和所谓的垃圾活动会让比特币变成更差的货币吗？
Does ordinals and, you know, spam activity make Bitcoin a worse money?
你要扭曲自己才能做出这样的论点。
You have to be you have to twist yourself to make it to make that argument.
你必须非常勉强地、把自己绕进死胡同，才能说比特币的功能不同了，说你不能发送比特币交易，说你无法对比特币实现主权级访问。
You have to really, like you have to tie yourself into knots to say that Bitcoin functions differently, that you cannot send Bitcoin transactions, that you can't have, like, sovereign access to Bitcoin.
事实上，我们已经看到更多用户因为比特币而使用比特币。
Empirically, we've seen that more users use Bitcoin because of Bitcoin.
我们基本上把其他NFT和加密生态系统的全部能量都吸到了比特币上，现在他们拥有了比特币。
We basically siphoned all of the energy from these other NFT and crypto ecosystems onto Bitcoin, and now they own Bitcoin.
而这些人以前根本没用过比特币。
And they're really these people weren't using it before.
他们之前都在以太坊和Solana上。
They're all on ETH, and they're on Solana.
是的，他们仍然活跃在那些生态系统里，但现在他们拥有了比特币。
And yes, they still hang out on those ecosystems, but now they have Bitcoin.
如果你加入这些投机者的Discord群组，会发现普遍有一种共识：我在这些其他链上交易、投机，但我会把收益转入比特币储蓄账户。
If you hop in these, like, Degen Discord servers, there is a broad agreement that I trade on these other chains, I Degen on these other chains, and I roll that into a Bitcoin savings account.
我曾经花了很长时间试图说服人们为比特币这么做，但那简直是在推一根绳子。
Like, I have tried for so long to convince people to do that for Bitcoin, and it's really just pushing on a string.
我主持比特币线下聚会已经快十年了。
I've run a Bitcoin meetup for, like, close to closer to a decade now.
是的，那个。
And, like, the yeah.
当你遇到一个瑞波币的人，他们那颗光滑的小脑袋根本理解不了，这就像对砖墙说话一样。
It's like talking to a a brick wall when you meet a Ripple person that just doesn't compute in their smooth little brain.
但这些投机者不一样，他们懂，因为他们会说：哦，我想要比特币。
But these degens, like, they get it because they're like, oh, I want I want Bitcoin.
比特币就像是这么一个东西。
Bitcoin's like this thing.
这现在是他们的储蓄资产了。
This is their it is now their their savings asset.
所以我就
And so I
是的。
Yeah.
这很有趣。
It's interesting.
我会把这看作是一种平台层面的争论，而不是嗯。
I would friend this as like a kind of like a platform argument as opposed to the Mhmm.
比如说，在这个语境下，平台至上主义者认为，我们应该把这些其他用户带到比特币来，
Let's say, the monetary argument of like so the platform maxi in this in this context is like, hey.
而货币至上主义者则更倾向于说，不，
We should bring these other users to Bitcoin, whereas, like, let's say, the monetary maxi is more like, no.
滚开。
Piss off.
去别的地方吧。
Go somewhere else.
这似乎就是一条小小的分界线。
That's that's kind of the that seems to be a bit of a dividing line.
但没错。
But yeah.
我的意思是，我我
Mean, I I
我相信两者。
believe both.
实际上，我们唯一有分歧的时候是在讨论共识变更。
Like, the only time we actually disagree is when we're talking about consensus changes.
我们在讨论共识变更及其背后的动机，因为仅仅说你是OpCAT支持者、平台派还是货币极端主义者，界限实在太模糊了。
We're talking about consensus changes and the motivation behind these consensus changes, because it's really blurry just say if you are an OpCAT supporter if you're a platform or a monetary maximalist.
这个操作码非常受欢迎，因为它满足了不同阵营中许多人的需求。
It is a broadly popular opcode because it it checks boxes for many people in many camps.
CTV是一个更狭义定义的操作码，可能更有利于货币极端主义者。
CTV is a more narrowly defined opcode and probably benefiting more monetary maximalists.
但问题是，什么是垃圾交易、什么是货币交易之间的区别，比几乎任何人所承认的都要模糊得多——让比特币成为更好货币的特性，同时也为JPEG爱好者提供了用例，反之亦然。
But the thing is, because, like, the difference between what is spam and what is a monetary transaction is way more ambiguous and blurry than almost anybody I think, like, acknowledges, like, a thing which makes Bitcoin better money also provides use cases to JPEGers and vice versa.
所以我认为，这其实是一个非常宽泛的阵营，而我们站在它的两端，这是我的观点。
So you find that, like, this is really just a very big tent, and we're on opposite sides of it, is my view.
我觉得，道德层面的论点对我来说非常陌生。
And I just think that there is a lot more, like, the the moral arguments are very foreign to me.
这并不是我十年前认识的比特币。
That's not the Bitcoin I knew ten years ago.
这些是非常反密码朋克的论点。
That that's very these are very anti cypheric arguments.
你知道，比特币文化以及我们对比特币的思考方式是在演变和变化的。
And, like, you know, the Bitcoin culture and how we think about Bitcoin does evolve and change.
也许我们是一个道德优先的网络。
Maybe we are a morality first network.
我的道德和伦理核心是为人们提供更广泛的对比特币的自主访问权。
My morals and ethics are centered around providing more sovereign access to Bitcoin to people.
因此，我认为，关于什么是可接受或不可接受数据的规范性声明，比偶然让比特币成为某种JPEG技术的更好平台，对实现比特币作为自由技术构成更大的风险和危害。
And so, like, I think that the normative statements about what is okay and not okay data is much more risky and harmful to making Bitcoin freedom technology than making accidentally making Bitcoin a little bit better platform for some JPEG tech.
我明白了。
I see.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这将是其中一件事：某些升级可能确实对某些用途更有帮助，但最终，有一些升级是所有人都希望的。
And I think it's it is gonna be one of those things where certain upgrades maybe they do help certain uses more, but ultimately, there's certain upgrades that everyone wants.
也就是说，显然，这场分歧双方的大多数人，都会出于各自的私利而想要这样。
That, like, would not everyone, to be clear, that, let's say, most people people in both sides of that divide could want for their own selfish reasons.
所以，正如我所说，即使我觉得其中一些东西是垃圾信息，我也觉得我们没有一个良好或有原则的方式来阻止它。
And so I I guess, yeah, as I said, like, even if I think some of that stuff is spam, I just I don't think we have a good way to stop it or a principled way to stop it.
我认为解决办法带来的害处会比问题本身更严重。
I think the cure is gonna be worse than the disease.
我觉得很多核心开发者其实被冤枉了，他们背了那些垃圾信息发送者犯下的错。
I think a lot of the core developers are kinda getting blamed for things that the spammers did, really.
我觉得这有点像迁怒于传话的人。
Like, I don't I I think there's a bit of shooting the messenger going on.
但说到主权访问，我们总不能一直聊垃圾信息吧。
But speaking of sovereign access, let's you know, we're not gonna spend the whole time on spam.
我们来谈谈这个 Layers 项目吧。
Let's talk about this Layers, project also.
我知道你收购了 Bitcoin Layers。
So I know you acquired Bitcoin Layers.
我记得是雅尼斯在做这个吗？
I believe was it Yannis was, doing that?
所以给我们讲讲这个项目，以及你打算在这里实现什么。
So tell us a little bit about that and, what you're aiming to do there.
所以比特币层，我们在2024年初看到了一波比特币二层的爆发，其中大部分只是高级版的多重签名，甚至单签名桥接，还伴随着大量来自中国的投机资本，但这也没关系。
So Bitcoin layers, we saw, like, in early twenty twenty four an explosion of, like, Bitcoin l twos, the majority of which were glorified multisigs or even single sig bridges, and a lot of degenerate Chinese capital, but that's fine.
而在这个过程中，恰好与雅努斯和他的团队不谋而合，我为一个名为比特币层的开源项目组建了这个团队，旨在追踪、分类和定义这些技术。
And through that, it happened to coincide with Janus and a team of his that I built for an open source project called Bitcoin Layers, which, like, tried to track and categorize and define what these things are.
因为尽管很多这类知识在邮件列表或比特币圈的高阶讨论中是隐含的，但其实并没有任何正式的定义。
Because as much as a lot of this is implicit knowledge on the mailing list or in, like, the high the Bitcoin discourse, like, it's really not defined anywhere.
如果我们思考一下侧链系统和二层网络，或者联盟制侧链系统，你知道，闪电网络和Liquid、Arc、Spark之间到底有什么区别？
And if we think about, like, side systems and l twos or federated side systems, you know, how is Lightning different from Liquid is different from Arc is different from Spark?
你知道，状态链之间又有什么不同？
Are you know, what are the differences between the state chains?
它们的安全假设是什么？
What are the security assumptions?
真的没有任何地方可以弄清楚这一切。
There really is there really was no, like, place to figure all this out.
而且，也没有任何地方可以追踪这些其他侧链、系统或L2上发生的全部活动。
And on top of that, there was no place to, like, track all of the activity happening on these other side systems and chains or l twos.
于是，Janus、Red、Michael和其他一些人开始着手这个项目。
And so that's the project that Janis and Red and Michael and some other folks started working on.
我当年其实对这个项目进行了天使投资，但他们真的很难赚钱。
I actually was an angel into that project back in the day, But it's really hard for them to make money.
作为开源项目，赚钱真的很难。
It's really hard to make money as an open source project.
所以，Blockspace作为一家媒体公司，追踪这些数据、制作仪表盘、与这些其他的L2（广义上使用这个术语）合作，对我们来说非常合理。
So Blockspace, we're a media company, it makes a lot of sense for us to, like, track this data, dashboards, do deals with these other, you know, L2s, use the term broadly here.
我们可以帮助你们描述你们网络中正在发生的事情。
L2s to like, we will help you, like, describe what's happening in your network.
这非常有价值。
And that's really valuable.
所以这不再是一个开源项目了，但我们正在将其内部化，并将开发多个功能。
So it's not an open source project anymore, but we are taking it internal, and we will be building several things.
显而易见的是，如果你看一下比特币层，所有数据都变得有些过时了。
The obvious ones are, if you look at Bitcoin layers, all of the data has gotten a little bit out of date.
我们只是更新它，让它重新焕发生机，基本上就是复活这个项目。
Just updating it, bringing it back to life, and just basically resurrecting the project.
我们认为这与我们的整体媒体战略非常契合，因为我们想知道：有没有一份通讯能追踪所有其他链上持有的封装比特币？
We think it fits really well into our broader media strategy because we like, is there a newsletter that tracks, you know, all the wrapped Bitcoin held in all the other chains?
因为这是比特币经济中非常重要的一部分。
Because that's a massive part of the Bitcoin economy.
所以，如果它属于更广泛的比特币经济范畴，那么我认为这正是我们有责任去讨论和报道的领域。
So if it's in the broader Bitcoin economy, then, like, I think that's in our jurisdiction to talk about and cover.
因此，BitcoinLayers 对我们来说是一个非常自然的整合与收购对象。
So BitcoinLayers is a very obvious integration and acquisition for us.
我想，从我理解你的意思来看，主要是展示这些不同的 L2，它们各自有什么权衡取舍，帮助那些不太了解的人。
I guess, as I'm reading you then, it's mainly around showing these different l twos, what are the different trade offs, what are the you know, just to help, like, people who are sort of not Yeah.
仍然存在深层次的
There's still deep
在权衡之中，然后
in the trade offs and then
描述你各种BitVM桥的信任假设，但真正有价值的是追踪这些其他生态系统中发生的事情。
describing, like, trust assumptions of, like, your your various, say, BitVM bridges, but it's really value adding to, like, track, what's happening in those other ecosystems.
因此，Bitcoin Layers项目过去主要专注于定义风险假设，因为大多数用户并不知道，如果他们将比特币桥接到Arc这样的链上，他们的交易对手是谁？
So, the the project, Bitcoin Layers, had historically focused on defining risk assumptions because most users don't know that if they're bridging, you know, Bitcoin to, like, Arc, like, who's your counterparty?
他们的交易对手是谁？
Are their counterparties?
哪些Arc实现是不同的？
Which ARC implementations are different?
它们各自做了什么？
What do they do?
因此，关于这些内容可以有Twitter帖子。
And so there can be Twitter threads about this.
可能会有一些开源仓库来追踪这些信息，但这同样明显具有教育和生态追踪方面的价值。
There can be, like, open source repos that track this, but, it's also very clearly, like, a value add, like, educational and ecosystem tracking.
比如RiverLearn，这是目前最好的教育资源，也是他们其他产品的巨大流量入口。
Like RiverLearn, the best, like, educational, you know, resource there is, and that's a huge top of funnel for their other, like, products.
所以，我们可以继续推进Bitcoin Layers的工作，同时也可以开展其他有价值的事情，比如生态情报追踪。
So, like, we can maintain the Bitcoin layers work, then we can also, like, do other value add stuff such as, you know, ecosystem intelligence on.
你知道，如果像有上千个封装的比特币在某个链上，那么比特币本身的总量是多少呢？
You know, if if if there's if there's a thousand wrapped Bitcoin on, like, on, you know well, how much does Bitcoin have?
比特币本身，嗯，比特币和封装的比特币加起来有1000亿。
Bitcoin had you know, Bitcoin and wrapped Bitcoin has 100,000,000,000
这数量巨大。
It's huge.
是的。
Yeah.
我已经忘记具体是多少了。
I've forgotten how much.
是的。
Yeah.
这规模很大。
It's huge.
那么，关于包装的比特币，现在发生了什么？
It's like, what's happening with the wrapped Bitcoin?
这会影响比特币经济。
That affects the Bitcoin economy.
这确实与比特币价格有关。
That that kind of does relate to the Bitcoin price.
所以能够追踪这一点非常重要，我认为也很有价值。
So it's really important and I think valuable to be able to, like, watch that.
而且，其他像以太坊和DeFi的二层网络追踪器，比如L2Beat之类的，虽然也追踪这些层，但它们并不是比特币原生的。
And and the thing is, like, the other, like, ETH and, like, DeFi, like, l two trackers, like, l two beat and stuff like that, they track these layers, but they're not Bitcoin native.
我发现，我以为所有这些加密货币爱好者都对比特币了如指掌。
And what I found is I thought all these, like, crypto people, like, knew their stuff about Bitcoin.
他们真的不懂。
They really don't.
他们完全不了解比特币的工作原理。
They're, like, totally clueless about how Bitcoin works.
因此，在比特币媒体和加密货币媒体之间，存在着巨大的认知脱节。
And so there's this huge dislocation in, like, media and coverage between Bitcoin media and crypto media.
他们根本不理解比特币。
They do not understand Bitcoin.
他们以为自己十年来已经把比特币简化成了一个非常简单的资产。
And they think they've they've reduced it to this really simple asset for a decade.
它不是一个简单的资产。
It's not a simple asset.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以把它当作那样来对待，但它其实是一个极其深入、复杂而丰富的生态系统和协议。
You can treat it like that, but it's this incredibly deep, complex, rich ecosystem and protocol.
这就是我的观点。
So that's my view.
很有趣。
Interesting.
我真希望能更多地参与比特币的Layer项目。
I would love to be able to do more of Bitcoin layers.
现在我们手头有好几个项目在进行，工作量很大。
It's there's a lot of work because we have several irons in the fire right now.
是的。
Yeah.
当然，我知道你还有Up Next这个项目。
And then, of course, I know you have Up Next as well.
去年我和威尔聊过这个话题。
So I I mean, I spoke last year with Will about it.
是的。
I Yeah.
我本来很想参加的。
Would have liked to come.
我没能去成。
I couldn't make it.
你知道的，很难，但我看了YouTube频道上的一些演讲，有些确实很不错。
It's, you know, hard to hard to, but I I caught a few of the talks on the YouTube channel and some you know, they're they're pretty good.
我觉得你们的演讲嘉宾阵容挺不错的。
Like, I think you got a pretty good lineup.
至少去年我在你们的YouTube上看过一些演讲。
Least At some of the talks I saw from your YouTube last year.
我知道这次你们请到了几位有趣的人。
I know you've got a few interesting people coming for this one.
是的。
Yeah.
给我们讲讲Up Next吧。
Tell us a bit about Up Next.
那是什么？
What is it?
谁会来？
Who's coming?
目标是什么？
What's the goal?
是的。
Yeah.
这是一场比特币技术会议。
So it's a Bitcoin technical conference.
有几个非常重要的比特币技术会议。
There's a handful of great big Bitcoin technical conferences.
我多年前就爱上了BTC++，所以我喜欢这种氛围。
I fell in love with BTC plus plus years ago, and so I love that beat.
我们是一个规模较小的、200到300人的技术会议，旨在捕捉关于比特币未来的关键对话，特别是比特币扩展性、操作码、软件讨论、核心工作进展，以及当前最热门的话题。
We are a small two to 300 person technical conference, and we want to be capture the capstone conversations about the future of Bitcoin, specifically Bitcoin scaling, opcodes, software conversations, what's happening with core work, and the whatever the topic du jour is right now.
显然，每个人都在谈论量子计算。
Obviously, everybody and their dog's talking about quantum.
我们现在对量子计算的关注有些过度了。
We have we are overweighted quantum right now.
但这不是那些由风投推动的量子骗局和恐慌。
But it's not the bullshit just VC funded quantum FUD.
而是像乔纳斯·尼克、Blockstream、基于哈希的签名方案这样的真实内容。
It is your, you know, Jonas Nick, Blockstream, hash based signature schemes.
埃坦·海曼，OpCAT的作者，还有CAT加LAMPORT签名方案。
Ethan Heilman, OpCAT author, but also CAT plus LAMPORT signatures.
我们讨论的就是这类真正技术性的东西。
So, like, we have, like, that type of stuff.
而其中的一个关键区别是，我认为比特币的技术圈、开发圈和实际的比特币投资者之间存在巨大鸿沟。我们特别在纽约举办活动，旨在吸引机构、基金以及真正影响比特币价格的人群。
And a little of the difference is is that because I think there is a gulf, a giant divide between the technical world of Bitcoin, Bitcoin development, and the actual, like, investors in Bitcoin, We are in New York focusing in particular on bringing institutions, funds, and the actual people who decide who, like, who drive the Bitcoin price.
因为如果这些人只让ETF变成巨大的多重签名钱包，甚至还不如那样，且完全不参与协议开发，我们又如何在未来真正改进比特币呢？
Because those people, if we just let the ETFs be giant multisigs, or not even that, and they have no engagement with protocol development, how do we ever improve Bitcoin in the future?
如果只是核心团队和贝莱德不希望发生，那伟大的共识清理如何实现？
How does the great consensus cleanup happen if it's just core and BlackRock doesn't want it to happen?
我相信，是的，这里可能存在冲突和紧张，但你会惊讶于这些人之间沟通的渠道依然如此开放。
I believe, yes, there can be conflict and tension here, but you'd be surprised how much like more how how still open like the ability for these people to talk to each other is.
所以，如果我们能举办一场吸引投资者的会议，让他们派出分析师参加。
So if we can have a conference which brings in investors, they send their analysts.
如果我们能成为每年在纽约举办的一场关键会议——因为所有人都在纽约，让投资者和矿工都能来与开发者交流——那么我认为我们就达成了目标。
If we can have like, if we can be the one conference beat a year in New York, because everybody's in New York, that the investors and the and the the miners go to to talk to the devs, then I think we've accomplished our goal.
我认为我们在编程方面已经做得很到位了，因为我们赢得了开发者的信任，我们汇聚了非常广泛的人群，比如BIP作者、核心贡献者、平时很少在会议上发言的人，还有Layer 2的开发者，比如设计跨链桥的人。
We have nailed, I think, the programming because we've kinda won the trust of the developers because we have a really wide range of, like, people, you know, BIP authors, core contributors, people who don't talk at conferences that often, and we have, like, the the l two people, you know, people designing bridges.
我们的技术议程已经非常扎实了。
We've got the technical programming.
这一直是我负责的领域。
That's really been my domain.
我们希望有更多投资者和机构代表参与，因为当你跟这些公司的高管交谈时，他们根本不懂比特币是如何运作的。
We want there to be more investor institution representation because you talk to these c suite to these these companies, and they they don't know how Bitcoin works.
他们不知道什么是客户端。
They don't know what a client is.
他们根本不知道这一点。
They've they don't know that.
Coinbase 为他们保管着。
Coinbase holds it for them.
所以我们正在做这件事。
So we're doing that.
我还要说，由于我们在区块空间领域拥有主导的挖矿覆盖，我们一直能够超越自身规模，获得大量的挖矿代表。
I'll also say that because, like, Blockspace has we have, like, the dominant mining coverage, We've always been able to punch above our weight and get lot lot of mining representation.
因此，在过去两年的活动中，2024年我们在富达公司举办了首次活动，当时占了三分之一的算力。
So the past two up next, we've had the first one at Fidelity in '24, we had a third of the hash rate.
去年在策略会议上，我们拥有了超过一半的算力或区块生产者。
Last year at Strategy, we had over half of the hash rate or block producers.
也就是说，池代表了在场的参与者。
As in pools representing the room.
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
因此，我们得到了各大区块生产者代表的广泛支持和参与。
And so I we have, like, significant representation and buy in from representatives of the various block producers.
比如，Luxor是我们的赞助商，CleanSpark也赞助了我们很多活动。
So, I mean, like, Luxor's a sponsor, CleanSpark sponsors a lot of our stuff.
他们是第二大或第一大矿机厂商。
They're, like, second or first largest miner.
所以我们有这些资源。
So, like, we have that.
Foundry每年都来。
Foundry has come every year.
Foundry今年也会来。
Foundry's coming this year.
所以，如果你还记得的话，史蒂夫·李、Wren 和 Lyn Alden 发表过一篇关于比特币利益相关者群体和比特币共识的论文。
And so, like, if you remember, there's a paper by Steve Lee, Wren, and Lyn Alden on, like, Bitcoin stakeholder groups and Bitcoin consensus.
我听过一个播客，讨论的基本上是共识变更如何发生，哪些群体拥有哪些权力，等等这些内容。
I a podcast But talking about basically it was like, how do consensus changes happen and which groups have which powers and this and this and that.
是的。
Yeah.
但我想看到 BCAP 论文在 OpNEXT 上有所体现，因为有些会议专门聚焦于某一方面。
If, like, I but I I want to see the BCAP paper play out a bit at OpNEXT because there are conference beats which focus on one or the other.
你可以去参加‘比特币与企业’大会，那里所有人花十个小时围着迈克尔·赛韦尔转圈吹捧。
You can go to your Bitcoin for corporations conference and it's just everybody circle jerking Michael Saylor for, you know, ten hours.
你也可以去参加比特币技术会议。
You can go to Bitcoin technical conferences.
很棒，但那都是些非常小众的内容，根本走不出那个小圈子。
It's great, but, like, it's all really niche stuff that doesn't get outside that little circle.
我觉得这些人可以多交流一下。
I think that these people can talk more.
比特币里还有很多我所说的任意性争论。
There's also a lot of, I say, arbitrary arguments in Bitcoin.
撇开那十个技术细节不谈，总是有一些小摩擦，比如有人热衷于讨论区块大小战争，很多人彼此愤怒，这种状况一直持续着。
Setting aside the nauts one ten thing, like, there's there's always little beefs and people who like post block size war, there's a lot of just exhaustion and a lot of people angry at each other, and that's kind of continued.
我真的认为，大家一起喝点啤酒，或者在一个小型会议里同处一室，对提升比特币生态系统的和谐大有裨益。
I really think that just hanging out over beers and also in the same conference room in a small, like, you know, little conference is does wonders for just the harmony of the Bitcoin ecosystem.
我喜欢想象古希腊人。
I like to imagine, like, the Greeks.
他们会在元老院里或类似场合激烈辩论，清醒时讨论，然后喝醉后继续讨论那些想法。
They would they would have they would argue on, you know, they'd argue in, you know, on the senate floor or whatever and sober, and they would talk, and they'd put they'd they'd they'd struggle through these ideas, and then they would get drunk, and they'd talk about those ideas too.
这正是OpNEXT的运作方式：你经历了一整天高强度的编程，然后我们一起去酒吧。
It's like, that's kind of how OpNEXT works because you have a very intense day of programming, and then we go to the pub after.
这就是那种模式。
So, like, that's the that's the model.
这就是这种形式。
That's the format.
是的。
Yeah.
那这次的日期和时间是什么时候？
We've So what's the date and the timing for this one?
时间是2026年4月16日，在纽约市的《纽约时报》中心举行，所以我们正在提升制作规模。
It's 04/16/2026 in New York City at the New York Times Center, so we're kinda bumping up the production.
你上次看过直播吧。
So you saw the livestreams last time.
这次会更像一场TED演讲。
Now it'll look more like a TED Talk.
我会稍微展示一下我的实力。
And I'll, like, I'll, like, flex a little bit.
我们刚才聊到了Notts过滤器争议。
You know, we just talked about the Notts filter controversy.
这次的最新风波源自OpNEXT，因为我真的认为许多核心开发者没有直接参与比特币生态系统的互动。
That comes the recent flare up comes out of OpNEXT, and it's because I really think a lot of the core developers had not been engaging, like, the Bitcoin ecosystem as directly.
所以我当时就想，有一个特定的CTRAIA滚动数据发布机制，但我觉得这些核心主要机构甚至都不太关注。
And so I was like, there's, like, a specific CTRAIA roll up data posting scheme that I don't think these, like, you know, some of the core major corkatories even, like, pay attention to.
我们需要确保他们都在场，特里有一个非常有趣的BitVM二号演示，后来这变成了邮件列表上的争议，不幸的是，这引发了最近这一轮的讨论，是的。
We need to make sure they're in the room, and that So Trey has a really interesting BitVM two presentation, and then that turned into a mailing list issue, which then unfortunately kicked off this recent round Yeah.
所以，尽管这让我很沮丧，但这确实表明了这些讨论是如何开始的，我希望未来能有更多建设性的交流。
So, like, as much as that's frustrating for me, that is like- that does showcase, like, that this is where the conversations start, and I would hope there'll be more productive things.
例如，我们有安托万·蓬索在做格雷格·吉扎的清理演示。
For example, we have Antoine Ponceau doing the Greg Gizzas cleanup presentation.
他接过了马特·科拉洛的这项工作，这似乎已经成为核心领域广为接受的主流方案。
He's taken over that banner from Matt Corallo, and that seems to be, like, the core, like, accepted popular one.
你们这些Galaxies、Nydigs、Foundries以及其他机构、Coinbase等，必须了解GCC，并知道去联系安托万或其他人，以便理解这些内容，因为正如BCAP论文所说，开发者可以提出方案，但最终是由投资者来决定的。
And it's really important that your Galaxies, your Nydigs, your foundries, your other institutions, your Coinbase, that they, like, know about the GCC, and they know to, like, talk to Antoine or these other people so they can understand it, because as the BCAP paper says, like, the developers can put something out there, but the investors do seal it.
所以，如果没有桥梁，投资者完全不了解这些东西，那就非常关键了。
And so if there's no bridge and there's like the investors have no idea what any of this stuff is, then then it's important.
而且，我觉得投资者并没有充分考虑到比特币的风险。
Also, like, I don't think investors are pricing in a lot of Bitcoin risk.
比如毒块攻击，这其实可以追溯到去年的OpNexx，当时我在波特兰演示了毒块攻击，还在我的播客里讨论过，后来演变成了他的邮件列表争议，接着Luke做出了回应，最终引发了那场110号辩论。
Like the poison block attack, that also dates back to OpNexx, the same OpNexx last year where I had Portland demo poison block attacks, and I had them on my podcast, and then that turned into his mailing list issue, which then Luke replied to, which then turned into the one ten debate.
所以，作为一个非开发者，我投入了大量精力去寻找那些对比特币有深刻见解的人，虽然我对很多事情并非完全中立，但我努力让我们在呈现对话时保持中立，以便人们至少能就这些话题展开讨论。
So like, I really spend a ton of legwork as a non dev trying to figure out who are the insightful people talking about Bitcoin, and while I'm not neutral about all things, I try to- we try to like be pretty neutral about, like, how we present conversations so that people can at least, like, talk about them.
因为我们太多人只在网上争吵，却很少真正面对面地线下争论。
Because too much of us argue on the Internet, not enough of us actually hang out in person and argue offline.
最好的争论发生在线下，这就是为什么我希望这些争论能在Up Next上发生。
The best arguments happen offline, and that's why I want those to happen at Up Next.
有意思。
Interesting.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，确实有各种各样的会议和活动。
Well, I mean, yeah, there's a range of conferences, range of events.
我觉得，这些事情就像，我记得几年前在奥斯汀举办过一个BTC++，那算是一个大活动，当时那里还发生了一场辩论；还有卢加诺的那个活动，当时关于分叉和不分叉的问题也展开了激烈的争论。
I think, you know, these things just kind of like, I I recall even a couple years ago, there was, a BTC plus plus in I think it was Austin, and that was kind of like that was like a big I think there was a debate there at that point, and there was, like, you know, there was that one in Lugano and, like, that one, there were, like, you know, big arguments going back and forth about forks and not forking and so on.
是的。
Yeah.
但这些争论只是重复了之前已经说过的内容。
But those arguments just rehash stuff that had already been said.
问题是，这些活动根本没有引入任何新信息。
The thing is, like, none there's no new information introduced at these.
我希望的是能有新的信息被引入。
What I want is there to be new information introduced.
而且，我觉得确实每个会议及其周边活动都会提到一些不同的东西，你知道的。
And Oh, I just feel like I do think I do think there were different there are different things, like, that get kinda brought up in each of these, you know, conference in and around those conferences.
但无论如何，我并不反对OpNexx。
But nevertheless, you know, not against Opnex.
我觉得那是个不错的活动，演讲者也很棒，我虽然还没去过，但希望未来能去。
I think it's it's a good programming, good speakers there, and I haven't been, but I'd like to go in future.
显然，我这次去不了，但是
Obviously, I won't be able to make this one, but
我们下次得让你来主持一个小组讨论。
We need to get you to host a panel next time.
是的。
Yeah.
也许将来吧。
Maybe maybe in future.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
但不管怎样，有什么总结性的想法吗？
But anyway, any any closing thoughts?
时间快到了。
We're running up on time.
所以还有什么最后的想法吗？人们在哪里可以找到你，了解更多关于OpNEXT的信息？
So any final thoughts, and where can people find you online and learn more about OpNEXT?
你知道最好的事情是，我们前半段一直在争论关于过滤器的问题。
Best thing you know, we we spent the first half of this arguing talking about filters.
你可以把我说的每句话都扔掉。
You can take everything I say and throw it away.
你可以把斯蒂芬说的每句话都扔掉。
You can take everything Stephan said and throw it away.
如果你把比特币当作货币并提高比特币的采用率，所有这些问题就都不再是问题了。
If you use Bitcoin as money and increase Bitcoin adoption, all of these problems don't become problems anymore.
所以我认为你能做的最好的事情就是提高比特币的采用率。
And then so I just think the best thing you can do is just increase Bitcoin adoption.
另一件事是，是的，我们有大区块空间，我们做播客。
The other thing is, yeah, big Blockspace, we we have podcasts.
我们发布时事通讯。
We do newsletters.
我们举办这个会议。
We have this conference.
你可以在Twitter上关注我，账号是c b spears。
You can hit my Twitter at c b spears.
你可以在Twitter上关注Blockspace，账号是block at Blockspace。
You can go to block at Blockspace on Twitter.
Blockspace.media的通讯简报。
Blockspace.media newsletter.
所以我们把所有这些都做了。
So we do it all.
如果你有任何问题，请在评论区留言，我会尽量回复。
And if you have an issue, please leave it in the comments, and I'll try to respond.
我知道我看起来像个偏执狂，但我无所谓。
And I know I'll just be a viscer, but I'm fine.
我乐意当个出气筒。
I'm I'm fine being a punchy bag.
所以是的。
So yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，这确实是个‘是的’。
Well, it's a it's a yeah.
比特币现在确实是一个充满争议的时期，但你知道，也只能这样了。
It's a it's a definitely a contentious time in Bitcoin, but, you know, so be it.
我认为人们去参加一些这些活动、了解比特币及其不同方面是好事。
I think, it is good for people to go to go to the some of these events, learn about Bitcoin, learn about these different aspects of it.
而且，没错，我确实同意让更多人实际把比特币当作货币来使用的观点。
And, yeah, mean, I definitely agree this idea about getting more people to actually use Bitcoin as money.
比如，哪怕只是单纯地定期买入并提现。
Like, even just literally DCA and withdraw.
如果我们能让更多人只是这么做的话。
Like, if we could just get more people just doing that
定期买入并提现，然后合并你的UTXO。
DCA withdraw then and then collapse your UTXOs.
是的。
Yeah.
最终会的。
Eventually.
那个，是的。
That yeah.
但我的意思是，如果我们哪怕能有相当数量的人坚持定投并提币，这本身就足以创造大量的链上需求，从而挤出大量垃圾交易。
But, I mean, I'm my point is just if if we even had a decent number of people just doing DSA and withdraw, that alone would provide a ton of chain, you know, on chain demand, which would price out a lot of this spam.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
我想我就说到这里吧。
I I think I'll just leave that there.
哪怕你是个过滤器支持者，大概也会认同这个观点。
Like, even if you're a filter guy, you can probably agree with that message.
所以，价格。
So Price.
我们就这样放着吧
Let's leave
就留在那儿。
it there.
是的。
Yeah.
把它定价出来。
Price it out.
这能解决我们99%的问题。
That solves, like, 99% of our problems.
对。
Yeah.
那我们就说到这里。
So we'll leave it there.
听众们，如果你觉得这期节目有收获，请分享一下，并在节目说明中找到查理。
Listeners, make sure you share this episode if you found value in it and find Charlie in the in the show notes.
谢谢你来参加我的节目，查理。
Thanks thanks for joining me, Charlie.
当然。
You bet.
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