LQWD的战略：闪电网络与比特币储备——与Shone Anstey对话 | SLP689

大家好，欢迎回到Stefan Lovera播客。今天我将与Sean Ansty进行对话。他是Liquid公司的CEO兼创始人，这是一家闪电网络公司，一家闪电网络基础设施公司，同时也是一家比特币资金管理公司。Sean，欢迎来到节目。

Hi everyone and welcome back to Stefan Lovera podcast. Today I am going to be chatting with Sean Ansty. He is the CEO and, founder of Liquid, which is a lightning company, a lightning infrastructure company, but also a Bitcoin treasury company. So, Sean, welcome to the show.

谢谢Stefan。是的，很高兴来到这里。我刚从香港回来，这段时间非常忙碌，飞行频繁。

Thank you, Stefan. It's it's yeah. It's great to be here. It's just back from Hong Kong, so it's been a busy stretch here. A lot of flying.

幸运的是，我在返程时睡了十三个小时。醒来时旅程都快结束了。这些都是小小的恩惠，但能为团队、公司和股东传递信息真的很棒。非常兴奋能来到这里。

Thankfully, I slept through the return trip for thirteen hours. I'm almost all about woke up and the trip was almost over. So small, small graces for those, but, great to get the message out for the, for the team, for the company and for our shareholders. And, yeah, just really excited to be here.

是的，太棒了。趁你在这儿，我们快速聊聊对比特币亚洲大会的即时反应。显然我们都参加了，但我很好奇你的看法。有什么不同之处吗？

Yeah. Excellent. Look, let's just get a quick reaction on, Bitcoin Asia while you're here. Like, Obviously, you and I were both there, but just curious to hear your perspective. What was different?

你在亚洲注意到了什么？

What were you noticing in Asia?

至少在会议期间的香港企业界，零售投资者的数量和人们的热情令人难以置信。人们正在寻找选择并渴望学习。让我个人惊讶的是，演讲结束后有很多人来找我，他们说：'嘿，我们过去一年一直在关注Liquid并研究你们的模式。'

At least in Hong for corporations within the conference. It was incredible, know, the amount of just retail over there and excited people. So, you know, people are looking for options and just wanting to learn. For me personally, have a surprising number of people came up to me after my talk. I was like, hey, we've been following Liquid for last year and studying your model.

这种热情真的让我意外。我们还看到行业中一些更务实的变化。当然，比特币资金管理领域目前正面临短期熊市的冲击。在我看来，这是上升趋势中的整合。我们都谈论波动性，但它总是双向的。

And that really surprised me. Just the kind of outpouring and also just even some of the maybe more pragmatic changes that we've seen in the industry. Certainly, you know, the sector for Bitcoin treasuries is being given a bit of a kick in the teeth. It's a bear market short term in my view. It is some consolidation within an uptrend and hey, we all talk about volatility, but it goes both ways.

这个话题被讨论过。实际上我觉得这种讨论令人耳目一新。特别是Strive的Matt Cole做了一个非常有趣的演讲，谈到有些公司本不该承担某些债务，但出于各种原因还是承担了。我们主要讨论的是一些小型初级公司，而不是像MetaPlanet这样已经取得突破的微策略公司。这个话题可以深入探讨，但总的来说，能参与其中令人兴奋。

That was talked about. So I actually found that kind of refreshing. And I thought there was, you know, Matt Cole from Strive, he had a really interesting talk there about, you know, some companies just, you know, they shouldn't take on certain debt things and they have and, you know, depending on what it is. Think we're really talking about some of the smaller junior companies, not necessarily the MetaPlanet, some micro strategies that have broken through. We can get into them more longer, but, yeah, it was an exciting time to be there.

很棒。现在请简单介绍一下贵公司Liquid的情况。对于听众朋友们，我和Sean其实是在两年前的企业比特币会议上认识的，那是2023年，当时整个国债公司热潮还没兴起。能简单介绍一下公司的背景吗？

Excellent. And, let's hear just a bit of an overview from yourself, about the company liquid, because now I actually met you now for listeners. I met Sean a couple of years ago, actually at Bitcoin for corporations two or three, two years ago in 2023. Now this is before the whole treasury company craze had really kicked off. And so do you want to just give us a quick background overview on the company?

比如公司是如何起步的，以及现在的主要业务？

You know, how it started and, you know, what you're doing now?

当然。我们还在萨尔瓦多的第一届比特币闪电网络大会上见过。

Sure. And and also we met in Bitcoin Lightning Network Conference in El Salvador. First one.

哦，那真是太酷了。

Oh, that'd be cool.

是啊，虽然行程很赶，但我们还是有机会简短交流。关于公司，我是Sean。我从2012年就进入比特币领域，其实2011年就接触了。真希望2011年能多做些事，当时入行很早。由于我之前从事互联网技术工作，所以很自然地就接受了'互联网需要原生数字货币'这个概念。

Yeah. It was just a whirlwind, but we had we had a chance to briefly there. So, you know, the company itself, I'm Sean. I've been in Bitcoin since 2012, really 2011. Should have done a lot more in 2011 when I got into it very early and I came by it honestly and the fact that I worked in Internet tech up to that point, of course, you'd like well, of course, we're gonna have a native digital currency for the Internet and all that kind of stuff.

这部分理解起来没有太大障碍。之后你会深入金融领域的兔子洞，思考什么是货币等问题，慢慢就变成了半个哲学家。我在这个领域很久了。我还有一家叫Big Digital Assets的公司，运营着加拿大第二大交易所，完全合规持牌。我们在合规方面做了大量工作，致力于打破上市障碍，开拓合规市场。

So that part, I didn't have a big jump in terms of my understanding. Afterwards, you go down the finance rabbit hole and what is money and all these things, and you become a bit of a philosopher and it's its own thing. I've been in the space a long time. My other company, it's Big Digital Assets, it owns Canada's second largest exchange and it is fully regulated, fully licensed. We've worked with compliance, We've worked a lot of hard work in the industry about breaking the barriers down to getting things listed and being fully regulated to open that part of the market.

在2019年末，我密切关注着闪电网络。我一直认为它将成为互联网本身的支付层，这让我回想起我的技术哲学和成长背景。当然，这是其中重要的一环。我们在2019年启动了相关计划，之后不断推进建设，并利用我们在公开市场的成功经验。到2021年6月，我们成功借助加拿大初级市场再次上市，筹集了大量资金用于购买比特币。

And in late twenty nineteen, I kept a close eye on Lightning Network. I've always felt it's the it's gonna be the payment layer of the Internet itself, and it just go back to my old philosophies and my upbringing in tech. And certainly, it's it's one of those things. So we know we we started that and in 2019, I started that in 2019, and then we just kept building out and then we leveraged the success we had in the public markets. And by June 2021, we were able to leverage the Canadian junior markets and go public again and raise a chunk of money, buy Bitcoin.

我们的商业模式从未改变。我们发布的招股说明书明确表示：我们是一家基础设施公司，购买比特币并使其产生效益。这在最近派上了大用场——当我们进行最后一轮融资时，证券委员会提出质疑：你们是否变更了业务性质？是否实质上是投资基金？

The model has never changed. So we had an offering, a prospectus, which was like, we're an infrastructure company, we buy Bitcoin, we put it to work. And that came in very handy recently because as we raised our last round, the questions came up from the Securities Commission. Are you a change of business? Are you an actual investment fund?

我们只需指出四年前的招股书：我们至今仍在做完全相同的事，分毫未改。虽然因此收到了问询函，融资暂停了24小时，但问题很快得到了澄清。

Or are you you know, why are you? Well, let me just point to our perspective from four years ago. We're doing exactly the same thing. We're not we haven't changed a dime. And so we got our letter and it halted our financing for twenty four hours and it was cleared up pretty quickly.

我们始终坚持既定方向。作为闪电网络的坚定信徒，我们从技术角度看待其发展：如何构建互联网基础设施。我们所有的比特币和闪电网络实践，本质上都是互联网革命的延续——这是互联网发展的下一个重大阶段。当然，货币体系和金融世界正在因此改变。

So we just, you know, stick to what we're doing. So we're big believers in lightning and we really look at it from the technology standpoint of, you know, how do you build out the Internet. Everything that we do here, and I like to talk about this, everything that's going on with Bitcoin and Lightning and all these things, just a continuation of the revolution of the Internet. This is just the next big massive phase of the Internet. And and, yes, money is being changed and the world of finance being changed.

互联网的发展历程已经证明了这点。我始终秉持的观点是：比特币首先是信任协议，货币只是其首个应用场景。它通过添加信任协议扩展了OSI模型的基础架构，增强了互联网第八层的能力。从这个视角出发，你才能理解其超越表面价值的深层意义——不仅仅是关于'如果有足够多人相信'的讨论，更重要的是技术层面的革新。作为从1999年就开始从事互联网技术的从业者，我见证了互联网从被嘲笑的2亿美元市值发展到今天。

The Internet's just it's it's come along and it's done that, and I've always gone back to the the philosophy that Bitcoin is a trust protocol first and foremost. Money is its first use case, and it extends the very plumbing of the OSI stack, the plumbing of the internet, the eighth layer, by adding the trust protocol that extends the capabilities of the internet itself. And when you look at that from that perspective, you start to understand its deep value beyond just, Hey, if enough people believe or there's adoption, that's all interesting and all and there's a place for that. But just simply on a technical level, I go back to my history, here I am 53, working on Internet tech since mid ninety 1999. Internet's worth $200,000,000,000.

我记得当时人们的嘲笑。就像当年你告诉人们互联网将改变世界时，他们的反应：'我为什么要用电邮？为什么要在网上购物？互联网永远不可能扩展，视频传输更是天方夜谭。'

I remember laughing. And so I'm like and you were telling everybody then how it's gonna change the world and nobody why would I wanna use email? Why would I shop online? The Internet will never scale. You'll never do video.

'语音通话？在线音乐？都是无稽之谈。'那些荒谬的言论。银行甚至会因为你域名里有.com就冻结账户，监管机构因为无法理解新技术而试图封杀或研究对策。

You'll never do voice. You're never gonna stream music. You're gonna blah blah blah. All the nonsense. Bank account your bank accounts get taken away because you had a .com in your name and regulators were trying to shut it down or figuring out what to do with it because they couldn't understand it.

要知道，技术总是跑在监管前面。快进到2010年，互联网价值2万亿美元。那么今天的互联网是什么构成的？那是七层协议堆叠而成——从底层的WiFi到顶层的网站应用。四十年来构建的所有这些层级共同组成了我们此刻正在使用的互联网。

And because, you know, tech always outpaces regulators. You know, fast forward in 2010, the Internet's worth $20,000,000,000,000. And then, what's the Internet work today? That's seven layers of layer ones, WiFi, layer seven of websites. All the other layers that were built over forty years that came together to make the Internet that we're literally using this second.

这价值多少？

What's that worth?

我不知道。我不会...

I don't know. I I wouldn't

一个价值万亿美元的社会运转其上，对吧？曾经我们为它定价。当你开始理解比特币正是为数字时代扩展了这套基础设施，并将应用于人工智能、机器人、支付等领域时，我们认为其价值将达到2.7万亿美元。说真的，转眼间它就会突破20万亿，再转眼就是200万亿。

A trillion dollar society runs on. Right? And there was a time we put a price on it. And when you start to understand that Bitcoin extends that very plumbing for the digital age and will be leveraged for, you know, AI and robotics and payments and this massive we think it's 2,700,000,000,000.0. I mean, come on, we're going to be 20,000,000,000,000 before you know it, and 200,000,000,000,000 before you know it.

而且这进程会比我们想象的更快，因为时间被压缩了。所以，你知道...

And it will happen faster than we think because time is compressed. And so, you know.

好的。那我们稍微深入聊聊公司吧。在最近这波...大概过去一年左右的公司热潮之前，我更熟悉你们作为闪电网络服务提供商的身份，就是那个LSP，对吧？

Yeah. Okay. So let's, let's dive into the company a little. So as I you know, pre let's say the most recent, let's say, company hype of the last, I don't know, year or so, something like this, maybe eight eight, nine months. I knew you guys as more like a lightning, you know, LSP, right, from lightning context.

能否简单介绍一下这个转型过程？其实...这样，我们先说几个宏观数据。根据网上资料——如果我理解有误请纠正——截至今天2025年9月2日...

So can you just walk us through a little bit about that transition? I guess and actually, you know what? Let's just give some of the high high level stats. Just from looking online, you tell me if I'm getting this wrong or anything. As we speak today, it's the 09/02/2025.

好的。公司每股价格为1.60加元。我认为市值约为4400万加元，你们目前持有约239个比特币。能否简单介绍一下从闪电网络公司转型的过程？我最初认识你们时是家闪电网络公司，现在似乎正在成为闪电网络与资金管理并重的公司。

Right. Price of the company per share is $1.60 in Canadian. I believe the market cap is about 44,000,000, and you currently hold about 239 BTC. So can you just walk us through a little bit about kind of that transition from, like, being more, I guess, I knew you as a Lightning company, and now it's trying to become, like, a Lightning company and also a treasury company.

当然。作为CEO，我必须说我们被严重低估了——这话我们常说。虽然我认为我们确实被严重低估（以加元计算），但市场近期变得非理性，大家都很恐慌，公司做空各种资产，谁知道呢？市场自有其规律，我们只需专注自身业务。首先为不了解闪电网络的听众解释下：闪电网络是比特币的第二层协议，即一个极速支付基础设施，能在点对点网络中处理每秒数百万笔交易，支持比特币上的微支付等各种功能。它建立在比特币超安全的第一层基础上，我们通过运营节点和通道参与其中。

Absolutely. And so, yeah, as the CEO, have to say we're tragically undervalued because that's what we always say. Although, I believe we're tragically undervalued, that's in Canadian dollars, the market, you know, market's getting irrational for a while and everybody freaks out and companies short things, who knows? It'll do what it will do, we're just going to stay focused on what we do. But certainly, you know, just for those who don't know what the Lightning Network is, the Lightning Network is Bitcoin's layer two, in other words, a really fast payment infrastructure that can handle millions upon millions of transactions per second in this peer to peer type network that allows for micro payments or all kinds of stuff in Bitcoin, and it rides on top of Bitcoin's ultra secure layer one, and we operate infrastructure within that to have nodes and channels.

节点就是运行开源闪电网络软件的全球服务器，我们可以与其他节点运营商建立支付通道。但关键在于：为什么我们要做资金管理？因为开通这些支付通道必须持有比特币，这是技术上的硬性要求。

A node is just a server somewhere in the world running the open source Lightning Network software, and we can establish payment channels with other node operators. But here's the catch. Why are a treasury company? You must have Bitcoin to open those payment channels. It is the marker that is required.

没有比特币就无法运营通道。对我们而言，积累比特币始终是核心。即便在经历FTX崩盘等事件时，我们的首要目标仍是全力保护比特币资产。那段时期我们不得不艰苦奋战，因为我们坚信比特币会继续其发展轨迹，最终重新充实我们的资产负债表，让市值回归合理水平。

You cannot do it without it. It is a technical requirement. So for us, it was always about stacking Bitcoin. And even when we went through the FTX meltdown and all those things that happened there, our number one goal was to protect our Bitcoin as best we could. And we really had to slug it out during that time there because we felt strongly that Bitcoin was going to continue to march its do its thing and would, you know, reinflate our balance sheet and bring our market cap back up to something there.

这就是闪电网络的本质。我们帮助路由网络中的交易，目前在全球运营20个节点（香港、印尼、日本两地、加拿大等）和数千条通道。网络会自动寻找最快、最便宜、最可靠或唯一的路径，而我们的节点布局恰好具有极佳覆盖。我们始终强调：从很多方面看，我们本质上就是家资金管理公司。即便因决策失误搞垮公司（当然我们竭力避免），资产负债表上仍持有比特币资产。

So that's kind of the Lightning in itself and for us we help route transactions across that network and so they make we have 20 nodes all over the world Hong Kong, Indonesia, two in Japan, one in Canada and thousands of channels. So the network itself will look for, you know, fastest path, cheapest path, most reliable path, the only path, and we happen to have an amazing reach across that. So we started off with that and we've always said, look, you know, in many ways we are simply a treasury company. I mean, let's just imagine if somehow we managed to mess our entire company up by making bad decisions, which, you know, we fight hard to to against or against nature and to do the right thing. But, ultimately, you still have Bitcoin on your balance sheet.

这种资产具有持续监控价值。因此我们自创立起就是资金管理公司，只是现在这个概念变热门了。我们微调了宣传定位，称为'比特币闪电网络资金管理公司'。投资我们公司就等于获得我们比特币资产的风险敞口——这些资产我们还在持续增持。最近我们还宣布通过闪电网络获得了收益，目前正聚焦收益增长。

And so this is an asset that you can use to monitor for. So we've been a treasury company from day one. It just became a hot topic, and we slightly changed our message to say, know, a Bitcoin Lightning treasury company, and so, you know, if you people want to take a position in our company, you know, you get exposure to our balance sheet of Bitcoin, which we're looking to continue to expand and grow, And we deployed on a Lightning Network. And as we announced recently, we've been earning, earning some yield, and we've been focused on on the yield aspect of it.

明白了。在深入讨论闪电网络和资金管理业务前，能否说明下你们239个比特币的分配情况？有多少部署在闪电网络节点，多少在冷存储？因为两者的安全属性截然不同，投资者对此看法也会不同。

Gotcha. So just one thing before we get into Lightning and, you know, the treasury company side of things, can you just, I guess, outline for us, do you have like some of those coins in the lightning, in the lightning network nodes? Because, versus some of that in cold storage, because obviously there's very different security properties of those things. And so, you know, people will have a different view on that. So can you just explain the split there of the $2.39 BTC?

什么是冷存储？实际上，比如说私钥在某个闪电节点上是热存储的。

What's like just cold storage and what is actually, let's say the private keys are hot on a lightning node somewhere.

没错。目前大约有70个比特币在闪电网络中，其余都存放在比特币冷存储里。我们当然有很多控制措施，我们是经过审计的公司，已经连续三年接受审计。

Absolutely. Probably about 70 Bitcoin and lightning right now, the rest remains in Bitcoin cold storage. And we have a lot of controls, of course, under Bitcoin. We are an audited company. We've been audited for three years.

我们的节点都经过审计，为此我们做了大量报告和建设工作，因为审计很困难。虽然我讨厌用'区块链'这个词，但审计人员确实懂得如何审计第一层比特币网络。我们投入大量精力来证明对节点的控制权。节点内部设有严格的安全控制和双重认证机制。我不会公开所有安全细节，但我们非常重视这方面。闪电网络软件已运行多年，网络上流通的比特币不仅限于我们的节点。

Our nodes are audited, which is, you know, we had to do a lot of reporting, a lot of build out around that because that's difficult because, you know, the layer one blockchain, like, you know, layer one Bitcoin I hate to use the term blockchain it's been banded around way too much but ultimately people get they the auditors get how to audit that straightforward and but then we you know we put a lot of reporting into how do you audit and show you have control of your nodes and all the other stuff that happens to get an audit. So within those nodes themselves we have a lot of security controls and two factor authentications that happen to even just access certain things and along the narrow. I won't get into all the security aspects just for, you know, there's no reason to have that in public, but ultimately we do take that very seriously and we but the software itself, the Lightning software, it's been out there for a while, there's quite a bit on it, in terms of like the network itself, there's quite a bit that's roaming around in terms of Bitcoin that's on the nodes, not just ours, but on the network.

开源软件受到广泛关注，因此我们对此很有信心。我们与领域内工程师保持紧密反馈循环，密切关注并尽力减少任何攻击面。这就是我们能做的全部。

And there's a lot of eyeballs on the open source software. So we're fairly confident on that. We have a tight feedback loop with the engineers in the space and we keep an eye on it and we do our best to minimize any attack plane. And then that's, that's all you really can do.

好的。考虑到可能有新听众更关注公司财务方面，我们先集中讨论这个，稍后再谈技术细节。让我们从公司财务方面开始。

Yeah. And look, so yeah, certainly let's try to, you know, I think, just cause I'm, I'm guessing probably there'll be listeners who are new and they're kind of more focused on the treasury company side of things. So let's keep it there for now. And then we'll get into the technical light afterwards. So let's start on the treasury company side of things.

能否解释一下相关策略？你们会考虑股权ATM吗？会采用债务或可转换票据吗？比特币积累策略是怎样的？

Can you explain for us like the strategies there? Like, are you looking at equity ATM? Would you consider debt and convertible notes? What's your kind of Bitcoin accumulation strategy?

我们已设立ATM机制，并建立了基础架構发行计划。几年前我们就预见到周期变化，申请了最高5000万加元的额度。其中1000万已分配给ATM，我们设有最低价格但目前尚未触及。公司目前零负债，虽然收到过可转债和其他贷款方案，但我们认为这些会成为负担。

So we actually have an ATM that is in place and we have what they call a base shelf offering. So we put in a couple of years ago in anticipation of the cycle breaking higher up to 50,000,000 Canadian and you can renew that thing over, you know, relatively quickly once it gets because it has to be gone from the BC Securities Commission and the TSX, so we have up to 50,000,000 in this and 10,000,000 of that has been allocated towards an ATM And we have a floor price that we haven't hit it yet. We're certainly not hitting it in a down market right now. So we currently company has no debt. We have had offers of convertibles and different loan structures that we just looked at and said, this is just gonna be an anchor around our neck.

我们不需要资金来支持她。是的，我们想尽快获得比特币，但我们不会以未来可能损害公司为代价来获取。多年来我投入了大量个人资金和大量时间。我们有优秀的股东。UTXO也一直在支持我们。

We don't need the capital to second her. Yes, we want Bitcoin as fast as we can, but we won't take it at a cost to potentially damage the company in the future. And I've put a lot of my own money and tremendous time in for years. We have great shareholders. UTXO has been backing us as well.

因此，我们目前将继续采用股权模式，直到债务模式定价更合理。关键在于，与业内其他公司不同，我们不必承担债务。我们的商业模式不仅仅涉及MNAV这类有趣的内容，更要认识到这是债券市场的套利行为。在加拿大初级市场，我们的规模还不足以实际利用这些机会。你可能会以10%的利率获得2000万股权条款，但这些最终会反噬你，甚至摧毁你的资金库。

And so we're, you know, we're going to continue just to use the equity model for now until we till the debt model has become more appropriately priced. The thing is, unlike other companies in the space, we don't have to take on debt. We have a business model that, you know, in terms of like not just MNAV and that kind of stuff, which is interesting and all, but we have to recognize that that is an arbitrage on the bond markets and all the other things that are going on in the finance space. In the Canadian junior markets, we're just not big enough to tap that realistically. And so you may get equity terms for 20,000,000 at 10% or something that will eventually come back to haunt you and potentially destroy your treasury.

实在没有理由让公司承担这种风险。短期内——我指的是接下来的30到45天——我们将重点部署更多比特币到收益结构中，证明我们可以通过赚取SATs持续积累，然后将这一模式展示给市场：看，我们是一家优秀的小型资金公司，是市场中的粉钻。结构清晰，完全流通股3400万（含期权和认股权证等），零债务。通过比特币赚取收益，增加每股SATs持有量。

And there's really no reason to put the company in that kind of risk. So we're going to focus over the short term, and I mean over the next thirty days here, and and thirty, forty five days, on just deploying a lot more Bitcoin to our yield structure and and prove that we can continue to stack SATs by by earning SATs, and then take that model back to the street and say, Hey, look, you know, we're a great little treasury company. We're a pink diamond in this market. Clean structure, you know, 34,000,000 fully outstanding including options and warrants and everything else, no debt. Earning earning yield in Bitcoin, earning SATs, increasing our SATs per share.

现在我们希望启动更大规模的融资，争取市场支持来购买更多比特币。随着市场好转，我们将使用ATM（按需发行）机制。

And we now we want to we want to get a much bigger financing underway and support in the market to buy another big chunk of Bitcoin. And as the market improves, we'll we'll use the ATM.

明白了。这其实也是我想问的关于零债务的问题。对一些听众而言，公司保持一定杠杆率是有吸引力的——当然要在合理范围内——他们认为这能让公司表现优于单纯持有比特币。但如你所说，债务条款的质量至关重要，没人想要限制过多、成本过高或结构不良的债务。能否请你评论下作为零债务资金公司，与保持10%-15%杠杆率的区别？

I see. And so, yeah, I guess that was going to be one of my questions around not having debt because for some listeners now, again, there's different treasury company investors and maybe for some of them it's attractive that the company has leverage because for them now within a certain range, They don't want it to be over levered, but within a certain leverage range, they see that as that's how this company can help outperform just holding Bitcoin. But of course to your point, it also matters the terms that you can get on that debt, because obviously you don't want to take on debt terms that are too restrictive or maybe too costly or just bad structure or bad terms, this kind of thing. So maybe if you could just comment on that aspect of being a treasury company that has literally zero debt versus having, let's say a leverage ratio of 10% or 15%.

确实，当市场明显好转时，采用杠杆可能很有意义。八周前市场火热时，各种融资邀约纷至沓来，现在明显放缓了。你会发现加拿大比特币相关公司的收购公告也少了很多。

Yeah. I mean, may be a time where that leverage makes a lot of sense as the market certainly straightens up here. And, you know, we, when things were really hot, even just eight weeks ago, all kinds of offers rolling in. They've certainly slowed down. You've seen a lot less announcements from Canadian companies in the space with Bitcoin purchases.

在我看来，有些同行公司为了发布价格公告而接受不利条款，幻想能扭转行业颓势，却忽略了市场转变。有时你需要耐心应对。我们不会为了短暂的价格上涨而行动——那种一两天后就回落的行情我们不感兴趣。我们将关注MNAV等资金指标，同时开发LNAV等自有评估体系。作为资金运作方，我们将坚持独特道路，在市场保持独特性，战略性地兼收并蓄。

And I think you've seen in my view, you've seen some companies in the space that have taken on terms just simply to get a price release out in hopes that they would pull back the ocean without recognizing that there's a shift in the industry and sometimes you just have to be patient and work your way through it. And, you know, we're not here just to, you know, try to get a price release out and feels good for about a day or two and then you get sold off again. I'm not we're not interested in that. So, you know, we'll we'll we'll see how this this next next stretch plays out, we're gonna focus on you know, what we're looking at, we'll be certainly looking at MNAV and all the other aspects that are there in terms of the treasury aspects, but we're working on our own metrics like LNAV and things like that. We're a treasury play, but we're going to march the beat of our own drum, be our own treasury play and be unique in the market and be true to what we've been doing, and we'll leverage the best of both as it makes strategic sense.

现在，你只需看看股价和行业情况就会意识到，所有人都在遭受打击。最好保持低调，集中精力，在后台准备好所有事项，比如融资所需的文书工作等，尽可能把这些都安排妥当。我们正在努力推进，在很多方面已取得长足进展，但要为下一次市场回暖做好准备，因为根据我们多次观察到的市场规律，机会窗口会突然大幅打开并持续一段时间。我记得多年前的2017年，我带领上市的第一家公司经历了种种压力，当时有位银行家说过：最先冲出来的五家公司将获得所有资金和关注。

Right now, you just have to look at the share prices and the sector and realize that, hey, everyone's getting kicked in the teeth. It's better to hunker down, focus, prepare all the stuff in the back end in terms of like, you know, what you can do for financings and get all that paperwork and everything lined up as best you can, and we're working on that, and we've come a long way in a lot of things, but and be ready for the next upswing because if it plays out we've seen a number of times in the market, the window will open drastically and again and for a period of time. I remember years ago, it was 2017, the first company I took public and all the stress that went around with that, the I remember that one of the bankers saying, look, here's what's gonna happen. The first five companies out of the gate are gonna get all the money. They're gonna get all the attention.

然后无论是加拿大市场还是美国市场，都会经历一段火爆期。但突然之间，市场会毫无征兆地关闭机会窗口，甚至你都不知道原因。虽然可能还有些掉队者能完成融资，但整体上就像'噗'的一声结束了。所以我们必须持续发力，把事情做成。我们现在就在提前做同样准备，我认为历史会重演。对我们而言，就是要持续提升公司知名度，让投资者了解我们的动向。

And then and the window and and the Canadian markets, US market, it's gonna be hot for a stretch. And then suddenly, for whatever reason the market is just going to close, the window will close and you don't even know why and there'll be some stragglers coming in, they might get some financings, but that'll be it, just poof, done. So you need to get, you know, keep going hard and and get it done. And so then this we see the same thing here that we're preparing ahead of time, and I think the same thing's gonna happen. And so for us, yeah, just keep promoting the the name, let our people know what we're doing.

我不喜欢自称推广者，因为我更是个实干家。但我们只需让工作成果说话，并为下一次市场复苏做好准备。

And I don't like to call myself a promoter because I'm a builder, But we just, you know, let our let our work do the talking and be prepared for the next up swing.

明白了。是的，我认为这很有道理。就加拿大市场而言，您能否为正在评估贵公司作为财政实体的投资者们指出任何特殊之处或需要特别说明的细节？

Got it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it makes sense. In terms of the Canadian market, I guess, just generally, are there any idiosyncrasies or specific things to the Canadian market that you want to spell out for people who are assessing you as a treasury company?

当然。加拿大市场对某些初创企业其实非常有利。传统上温哥华和多伦多是全球资源中心，如果你是资源、黄金或白银公司，很可能会在这两个城市设立办公室。这里作为世界黄金之都，银行家和营销人员有各种方式降低风险，他们熟悉初创企业的风险特征。

Sure. I mean, Canadian markets are actually really amazing for some junior startups. And one of the reasons is, is that traditionally Vancouver, Toronto are resource capitals of the world. If you're a resource or gold company or a silver company, you will probably have an office in Vancouver, Toronto where something going on that is the gold capital of the world. And so there's a lot of ways that the bankers and the marketer de risk themselves and they're used to the risk profile of junior companies.

因此DAC表格非常适用于我们这类公司的发展需求。这个市场很独特，拥有完整的配套体系。我们希望能升级到TSX主板上市，目前还在创业板。

And so the DAC sheet serves very well for these type of things that are going on for companies like ours. So is unique. It has a whole infrastructure around it. I think for us, we'd love to, if possible, get up listed to the TSX Big Board. We're on the junior board.

主板上市将为我们打开更多融资渠道，吸引那些只能投资主板公司的机构。但这需要我们满足特定要求，随之而来的是更短的报告周期等新挑战。我们正在朝这个目标努力，虽然升级上市能带来更大交易量（就像纳斯达克那样），但监管合规工作会消耗大量时间精力。有时候真要小心许愿，因为可能会梦想成真。

The Big Board will open up the doors to more financings from different companies, firms that can only invest in BIGBoard, but it also requires that we meet certain requirements. Will happen then is, and then you have shorter reporting times and all these other things that come up there you got to be prepared for. That's kind of one of the things we are working towards, and we know that uplisting creates more volume, there's more volume on the NASDAQ, etc, but there's only so much time in the day, and these things can get you burdened down with regulatory stuff to get there. And, sometimes it's, you know, be careful what you ask for. You might just get it.

明白了。是的。在财务公司方面，MNAV是一个很多人喜欢用来评估的重要指标。当然这只是众多考量因素之一。举个例子，现在策略显示，我看仪表盘上大约是1.37倍。

I see. Yeah. And on the treasury company side of things, MNAV is a very big metric that lots of people like to, you know, assess. Now it's one of many things that you would look at. So as an example, strategy right now, as I'm looking on a dashboard, it's about 1.37.

再举个例子，让我查下准确数字...好的。哦，这个仪表盘显示是1.6倍。可能这个数据有误或过时了。

And then as an example, you guys, let me just get the exact number. Yeah. Okay. Oh, it looks like this dashboard's got it at 1.6. Maybe this one's out or wrong.

好的，明白了。

Okay. Gotcha.

我现在就可以告诉你。我们有自己的仪表盘Treasury.lqwdtech.com，显示我们的比特币净资产倍数是1.24倍。

So I can tell you right now. I can tell you right now. Got it. We have our own dashboard there. Treasury.lqwdtech.com, and I think it's you know, we're 1.24 x our Bitcoin NAV.

让我看看MNAV值...找到了，MNAV是1.24倍。略低于策略值。对我来说最看重的指标是每股SATs值，毕竟我是大股东。

Let's see what the MNAV is. If I could find it, we'll MNAV is 1.24. A little below strategy there. For me, the number one stat that I like, and I like this because I look at, you know, obviously I'm a major shareholder, is SATs per share. Yeah.

我只关心两件事：每股SATs值，以及如果公司明天清算我能分到多少比特币？这才是最本质的核心问题。当然我不是建议要清算，只是说这是最直接的评估方式。

All I wanna know, SATs per share and how much if the company was liquidated tomorrow, how much Bitcoin would I get? That's like the brass tacks, the most hard look at everything you could get down to. I'm not suggesting we're doing that. That's not that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that's just a really tough direct way to look at it.

如果全部清算，我能得到多少比特币？这就是我的核心指标。我们会通过股权、ATM、债务等合理方式持续积累比特币。

If everything was liquidated, how much Bitcoin would I get? That's it. Yeah. And so that's my number one metric to work with and just continue to stack it. And we'll stack it through, you know, equity, ATM, debt when it makes sense or if it makes sense.

对我们来说，最终目标是持续获得实际收益

And the ultimate for us is continuing to earn actual

闪电网络统计

Lightning Network stats

在闪电网络上再投资，实现复利效应。只需让它继续运作，不断周转。

on the Lightning and put it back in and have that compounding effect too. Just put it back to work and continue just to turn it over.

是的。那么你能给我们提供一个比特币收益率或具体数字吗？人们想知道最近的比特币收益率是怎样的？

Yeah. And so can you offer us a, I guess like a BTC yield percent or a number that people can think about or what have you, people want to know what's the BTC yield been like recently?

当然可以。我们最近发布的公开信息显示，在3-4周的时间里，我们获得了19.9个比特币，略低于20个，收益率达到24%。具体细节都已公开。

Yeah, for sure. I'm certainly we did our last press releases, public information here. We had 19.9, just a little under 20 Bitcoin. We had a 24% yield off of a stretch of three to four weeks here. The details are out there.

大家可以查阅。我们采用了加权计算方式，因为并非所有通道都同时开放。所以我们计算的是加权年利率（APR），如果按全年直线计算的话，收益率约为2.5%，但并非所有通道都在第一天就开放。因此需要看我们如何获得速度，实际赚取多少收益。

People can look it up. We used a weighted volume because not all channels are open at the same time. So we have our, you know, the APR, sorry, a weighted APR because doing a year like a straight APR, the numbers are about 2.5%, but not all the channels open on day one. And so you need to look at like, how are we gaining velocity? Like what are we actually earning?

明白了。

Gotcha.

是的。我们想要让数据尽可能准确，接下来我们会陆续公布更多信息，我们会尽快分享这些数据，这些数据将真实反映我们的收益情况。目前来看，各项数据表现非常成功，我们正继续推进现有模式。我们的模式很独特，因为我们建立了覆盖全球的网络节点和基础设施，通过这些年积累的交易数据——我们非常注重数据分析——这些数据帮助我们实现了当前这样的收益率。

Yeah. And how are the we want to make the numbers as accurate as possible and we'll have them over the next stretch or we're gonna have a much more information coming out that we're gonna share and and I'll try to share it, you know, we're gonna try to share it as quickly as we can and it'll tell a story of what we're actually earning on. But so far, the numbers have been very successful, and we're continuing to to move forward with the model that we have. And we have a unique model because of the global network that we built with all these nodes and all that infrastructure, the data that we've gained from that, because we're very data analytic centric, and we've been able to pull a lot of transactional data from our network over the last number of years and use that to our advantage to help earn this kind of a yield.

明白了。好的。为了让关注财政方面的听众跟上节奏，我先快速做个概述。闪电网络本质上是一个双向支付通道组成的网络，但不仅仅是——比如说我和Sean之间开通一个通道那么简单。

Gotcha. Okay. So just for the treasury focused listeners, let's give a bit of a lightning overview just so people, are all following along. So I'll try to offer just a basic overview so people get a basic idea and then you can elaborate further. So in the Lightning Network, it is literally a network of bidirectional payment channels, but it's not just, you know, let's say I open a channel with Sean.

这不仅仅是我和Sean之间互相转账的数据统计，实际上还涉及路由功能。比如我和Sean有通道，他可能和别人也有通道，这样我就能通过他的通道完成支付。闪电网络的工作原理就是开通和关闭通道。

It's not just the stats that I would fling back and forth between me and Sean. It's actually the routing as well. So let's say I have a channel with Sean. He might have a channel with someone else and then I could pay through that channel. So the way things work in Lightning is, you know, you open channels and you close the channel.

这在比特币链上是一笔交易。关键在于这些闪电节点会相应设置费用。一般来说，在闪电网络中你希望处于资金流动的中间位置，当人们通过你运营的通道进行路由时，显然他们会支付路由费用。据我了解，闪电网络中有不同的收费方式。

That's an on chain transaction on Bitcoin. But the point here is these Lightning nodes will set their fees accordingly. And then I guess generally speaking in the Lightning network, you want to be in the middle of the flow, right? Like if you people are routing through the channels that you operate, then obviously they'll be paying you some routing fees on that. And so in the Lightning Network, there's different ways people will do the fees as my understanding.

通常采用基础费加交易金额百分比的形式。这个模式具有一定竞争性，因为在闪电网络中节点位置很关键——如果你运营的是更中心化的大型节点，别人就更可能选择你的路由通道。这大概就是我给新手解释的高阶概念。

There's like a base fee plus a, like a percent of the transaction fee. And that's kind of the general model that people use. And it's somewhat competitive in the sense that. You know, central in the Lightning Network matters because if you have bigger, more central nodes, other people will kind of know you and they'll more be more, maybe they're more likely to route through you. So I guess that's kind of my kind of high level, how I would explain that for somebody who's a bit new.

当然普通用户只需打开闪电钱包，输入金额点击发送就行。但我们讨论的是底层运作机制。你同意这个说法吗？或者你想补充...

So obviously if you're an end user, you just pick up your lighting wallet, you scan, or you type in the amount and you hit send. But what we're talking about is kind of what's going on under the hood. So, do you agree, disagree, or where do you want to

不，这个比喻非常到位。就像熟悉网络服务提供商的人知道的，当你访问google.com时，数据请求会经过Verizon、AT&T等运营商最终到达谷歌服务器。闪电网络也是类似的点对点网络概念，只是具有方向性特征。你说得很对。

maybe No, that's great way of putting it. Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. Would say to people who are familiar with Internet service providers, may go to google.com, your data and requests will go through Verizon, AT and T, and eventually to Google servers and back. It's kind of in the long night same concept where it's a it's a peer to peer network, but on in your case, it's by it's, you know, it's directional in that sense. And then and you're right.

你想置身于资金流动的核心。对我们而言，我们没有任何终端客户，也不为任何人提供入驻服务。我们是一家基础设施公司，在幕后连接所有人，并因此赚取SATs，所以我们会继续专注于这一领域。

You wanna be in the middle of the money flow. So for us, it's like we we don't have any end customers. We don't onboard anybody. We are an infrastructure company. We connect everybody behind the scenes and we earn SATs for doing that, and so we're just going to continue to stay focused on that.

在我看来，闪电网络最吸引我的一点是，它正是我们90年代期盼却未能实现的互联网支付层。这是一个真正开源、可扩展至互联网规模的支付层，不受任何第三方控制——无论是谷歌、微软还是其他机构都无法干预。任何人都能加入、使用或基于它进行开发，完全没有任何限制。如果这听起来很熟悉，那是因为互联网本就如此——互联网早已内置了等待支付网络接入的标准。比如我们都见过的'402需支付'和'404未找到'网页提示。

It is, I mean, one of the things that always interests me about Lightning Network is Lightning Network in my view is it is the payment layer of the Internet itself that we wanted it to do in the 90s and didn't exist. It's a true open source payment layer that can scale at the level of the Internet that is not controlled by any third party, not Google, Microsoft, nobody in the way, and anybody can join it, anybody can use it, anybody can build off of it, there's absolutely no restrictions. If that sounds familiar, that's because that is the Internet and there's already standards built into the Internet waiting for a payment network. You know, four zero two payment required. We've all seen four zero four payment and web you know, page not found.

这些标准在八十年代末和九十年代就已构建，内置于每个网络服务器和浏览器中，一直在等待一个真正能无限扩展的互联网支付层。最令我兴奋却少有人讨论的是，虽然现在我们谈论人与人之间的支付，但最终将是机器与机器之间通过微交易完成支付。它们将用于身份验证、数据校验、直接支付等场景，在AI机器人领域将快速普及，速度远超我们想象。我常给人讲这个例子：记得雅虎曾派工程师带着硬盘飞往日本重建服务器，这种事现在简直难以想象。

Those standards are built in in the late eighties and the nineties, and they're built into every web server and every web browser and all that kind of stuff, and it's just been waiting for something here, the true payment layer of the Internet that can just have unlimited scaling. And where I've always thought is extremely exciting that we don't talk about a lot is we talk about, you know, people paying people, but ultimately it'll be machines paying machines and they're going to use micro transactions to do it and they use it for authentication, use it for validation, they use it for straight payments, all kinds of things are going happen in the world of AN robotics and it'll happen way quicker than we realize. And people I always tell people the same story. I remember Yahoo put engineers on a plane, flew them to Japan, and they gave them hard drives to rebuild their feet on the inside. You wouldn't even think about that.

对吧？当时你根本无法通过网络传输数据，技术根本达不到。如今时间被极度压缩，这些变革发生得更快了。我记得多年前听过一个观点：当技术发展超过十五年，人们就会觉得它一直存在。

Right? So, like, but then you couldn't send it over the wire. It was not there was just it just wasn't there. And so now time is super compressed and these things are happening faster. One of the I can't remember I heard this years ago, just remember tech when it hits that kind of fifteen year mark, it's like it's always been there.

你能想起没有iPhone或安卓手机的时代吗？

Can you think of a time when you didn't have an iPhone or an Android?

这个嘛，得回溯相当长的时间了。

Mean, it's You gotta go back a while for that.

没错。超过十五年后，比特币就会给人这种感觉——仿佛它一直存在。对很多人来说，它几乎就像从来就有的东西。

Right. It gets past fifteen years. It's like it's always been there and you're at that point for Bitcoin. It's like, hey, yeah. It's almost like, hey, it's always been there for a lot of people.

这是一件了不起的事情。当技术发展到经历所有迭代后突然达到十五年这个节点时，这个现象就很有趣了。这就是必然的声音，因为比特币既是技术突破，又是计算机科学突破，更是一项重大发现。但如今你开始亲眼见证它了。关于闪电网络，我想说的是就像你提到的，终端用户只管使用就好。那么过去一年发生了什么变化你知道吗？

It's a thing. And so that's an interesting aspect when tech hits that level where it survived all of its iterations and things and suddenly hits the fifteen year level. It is the sound of inevitability, you know, because Bitcoin is a technical breakthrough and a computer science breakthrough and a discovery and really is something special, but now you're starting to see it. One thing on the Lightning Network I want to talk about is you brought up here like end users just use it. So And what what has happened in the last year is you have the you know?

闪电网络技术的下一阶段我就不深入细节了，但它就像魔法般运作。你完全不需要了解原理，甚至不用知道开放通道这些复杂概念。你什么都不用准备，只要说'我想给你转点聪'，比如'我要给Stefan转20美元的聪'就行了。

So the next phase of the tech with Lightning Network won't get into too many details, but effectively, it works like magic. You don't need to know anything about it. You don't even know how open channels or all the complications. You you don't even have to have anything. You just, I wanna send Sats to you, and you can do, oh, so I wanna send $20 in Sats to to Stefan.

所有这些通道操作和时间协调都在后台自动完成。作为终端用户，你只需享受它如魔法般的顺畅体验。正是这种易用性让采用曲线开始腾飞。

And and it'll it just happens behind the scenes with channels and time and all the technical reasons, but as an end user, you it just works, and it works like magic. And that is when you start to see that curve and the adoption take off here because, it's easy to use.

没错。听着，我们得聊聊。我想财政部听众会想了解这部分收益。有几个要点需要讨论，包括收益本身、运营成本以及其他相关费用。从你推文看，你们在24天内部署了19.75个BTC国库资金，通过路由费实现了约24%的年化收益对吧？

Yeah. So look, we should chat. I think the treasury listeners might be interested to understand a bit about this yield. So there's a few things we've gotta kinda discuss because there's the yield, and then there's also the cost of operating and the cost of, you know, those aspects of it. So, from your I think from the tweet, I think I saw it says deploying 19.75 BTC from treasury over twenty four days to achieve about 24% annualized yield through routing fees.

就像之前解释的，使用闪电网络时，要么你自己支付接入费用，要么你使用的服务商代付这些费用。

Right? So as we explained earlier, when you're on the Lightning Network, you pay fees to access that or either you or the service provider who you are using, they are paying fees.

当然。

Sure.

那么能否详细说明下这部分收益？随着投入节点运作的比特币数量增加，你认为这种收益率能持续保持吗？

And so can you explain for us a little bit about that yield and, you know, do you expect that to be sustainable even as you grow the Bitcoin number of shots that you've put into the nodes to do this yield initiative?

确实如此。运营网络的成本主要在于建设费用，这与比特币挖矿不同，我们不需要庞大的基础设施。我们运营的是服务器，因此在全球各地都设有数据中心。

Absolutely. So costs are running the network. It's really just the build out costs because it's unlike Bitcoin mining where we have this massive infrastructure. We're running servers. And so we have data centers all over the world.

维护和托管这些设施需要成本，但与大型比特币矿工相比相对较低，他们需要每三四年升级设备，承担巨额电费。我们没有这些开销。关键在于建设、相关报告、自动化程度，以及如何运营我们20多个节点组成的全球网络，目标是建立完全自动化、能自我学习并适应的系统。这正是我们一直在内部构建的方向。

There's a cost to maintain that and host that, but it's relative compared to say a major Bitcoin miner where you've got to upgrade gear every three, four years, you have mass electrical costs. We don't have that. With that said, it's all about the build out, the reporting around it, all the automation, how do you run a, for us, 20 plus nodes, how do you run that as a global network with large levels, basically try to have fully automated systems that are self learning and adapt accordingly. And so that's been what we've been building out to do that, do it internally.

关于这点，你是否认为——当然不必透露全部细节——但我想问，这是否属于所谓的'秘密配方'，比如知道在哪里开通通道？这是技术知识的一部分吗？还是说Liquid更多是与闪电网络钱包、交易所等建立了商业合作关系？

On that, would you say let's say and obviously, you don't have to disclose everything, but I'm just saying, is that, like, part of the quote unquote secret source of like knowing where to open channels? Is that kind of a secret source thing? That's like a part of the technical knowledge or are you saying here it's more like liquid has business partnerships with, I don't know, lightning wallets and exchanges like that side of things.

我们确实与部分闪电网络钱包等有集成合作。但归根结底，真正的'秘密配方'在于全球网络。我们整合了各类数据，甚至开发了类似谷歌机器人的系统，它能主动扫描网络，寻找符合要求的节点运营商——可能是运行了一段时间并拥有特定通道的新节点，我们会自动与其建立通道。我们在加拿大设有超级节点，并计划在其他关键区域部署更多超级节点来持续支持网络。

We do have, we're integrated with Lightning, some Lightning wallets, etcetera. But ultimately, yes, the secret sauce is global network. We've taken all kinds of data that we have here and we actually have our own version of a sort of Google bot where, you know, it'll in the sense that it'll look out and scan the network and see if there's a node operator that meets the requirements. Maybe it's a new node, but it's been up for a period of time and has a certain channels, and we'll automatically open a channel with it. And we'll do that because it makes sense, and we have our super node in Canada, we're looking to deploy more super nodes across other key areas on the network and continue to support it.

我们还注重地理特异性。如果印度尼西亚有节点运营商，我们的印尼节点会自动建立通道，确保随时获得最佳连接，全力支持当地网络发展并抢占市场份额。明白了。

So we also want to make sure that's geo specific. If there's a a node operator in Indonesia, our our Indonesian node will actually automatically open a channel, make sure that that we have the best connectivity that we can possibly get at any time and support the network as aggressively as we can here and and then and and capture that that market share. And so Gotcha.

因为我想人们可能还会追问：如果面临竞争怎么办？当然最终会形成某种...

Because I guess the other follow-up point people might have is, okay. What if it gets competed away? You know, like now, of course it will kind of settle to a

特定

certain

层面。但我想，也许因为人们会有兴趣了解，是否存在某种竞争优势或护城河，使得Liquid仍能成为极具竞争力的闪电网络节点运营商，你知道，运营多个节点而非单一节点。

level. But I guess, maybe because people will be interested to understand, is there some kind of competitive edge or some kind of moat that allows liquid to still, be a very competitive lightning node, you know, routing operator, you know, multiple, not one node.

在网络上建立所有这些新事物需要时间。这不是一蹴而就的，你不可能在24小时内完成。如果你是上市公司，最好想清楚如何接受审计，因为这也非易事。此外我们拥有海量数据分析能力，这让一切变得更智能。我预计会有竞争者出现，但正是独特的竞争者才能造就一个行业。

Takes time to establish the new all this kind of stuff in the network. It's not a straight you can't just do it in twenty four hours. If you're a public company, you better figure out how you're gonna get audited because that's not a straight shot either. And then you have to have the all the we have a massive amount of data that we use for analytics as well that makes things a lot smarter. Now I expect competitors come along, but unique competitors make an industry.

我认为网络本身正在发展，我看到它每季度增长约25%。由于部分闪电节点是私有的，确切数据难以掌握，但我们确实看到该领域的快速增长。稳定币肯定会进入这个领域，那将带来全新的市场机会。我们目前只专注于比特币等领域，毕竟我们团队都是硬核比特币信徒。

And I think the network itself, know, some of the things I'm seeing it's growing, you know, 25% a quarter. You know, it's hard to know because sometimes some Lightning nodes are private, but we see, you know, rapid growth within the space. Certainly stablecoins are coming for it and that'll be a whole other market opportunity. We're really just focused on Bitcoin, etc. That's, you know, we're as Bitcoiners and the team are hardcore Bitcoiners.

是的。当然。

Yeah. Of course.

因此，要想进入这个行业并宣称'我们要做到Liquid的水平'，需要完成大量准备工作，绝不可能在一周内实现。这是不现实的。对吧。

The and so, yeah, there's a bunch of stuff there that you would have to do in order to to break into the industry and say, here's what we're gonna do at Liquid did and just didn't turn it up in a week. That's not gonna happen. Right.

你需要技术实力，还需要...是的。要实现这个目标需要具备很多条件。没错。我其实也很好奇你对这个问题的看法，因为在比特币极端主义者和闪电网络用户圈子里，最近经常听到这种说法：'闪电网络的容量一直在下降'。

You need technical competence and you need yeah. There's a lot of these things that are required to actually make it happen. Yeah. Sure. I I'm curious as well to get your take on this because this has been like, for those of us in the, you know, Bitcoin, Maxi, Lightning user world, a common kind of argument people are throwing around is, oh, the Lightning Network capacity has been coming down over time.

他们指的是公共网络容量。当然还存在私有路由和私有节点等。根据mempool.space/lightning仪表板显示，目前公共容量是3845个BTC，对吧？这个数字确实下降了。

Now by what what they mean by this is the public network capacity. Of course, there's private routing, private nodes and so on. Looking on the dashboard on memple.space/lightning, as I can see today, the public capacity is 3,845 BTC. Right? And so that's come down.

我认为峰值大概是5,000到6,000个BTC左右。但常见的观点是，'啊，锁定在闪电网络里的比特币没那么多，所以它失败了'，这种论调很普遍。当然这只是存量视角，我们还需要考虑流量问题。

I think the peak was maybe 5,000 or 6,000 BTC, something like this. But a common, I guess, argument is, oh, there's not that many Bitcoin locked up into Lightning. Therefore, you know, it's failed. That's kind of a common narrative. Now, of course, that's looking at the stock, but we also need to consider the flow.

实际流动的交易量是多少？能否请你从流量角度给我们讲讲？

The what is the actual amount of volume flowing? So can you shed some light there on Yeah. The flow aspect of that?

对，流量问题。这正是我们正在处理的难点，也是我们施展魔法的部分——如何实现再平衡？如何管理整个网络中比特币的流动？虽然比特币数量变少，但在我看来，这个网络正从草根节点运营者的自发支持，

Yeah. The flow. I mean, that's really what we're you know, we're turning overflow, and that's part of the the, you know, the difficulties that you have to solve and the magic that we do, know, the rebalancing and how do you manage it? And how do you manage the Bitcoin across all different aspects of your network? And so, there's less Bitcoin, but what we're seeing is, in my view, you're going from it was grassroots supported by random node operators, very passionate about the space.

他们可能为了收益或纯粹热爱，逐渐走向专业化。现在像LQWD这样的专业公司正用更高水准管理网络容量，他们具备相应资源。我认为这是网络的职业化进程，整个体系正变得更加成熟。代码本身和系统稳定性也是——几年前30%交易能成功，大部分会失败，

Maybe they can make some yield, maybe they can, maybe they super were interested, to now it's becoming professionalized where companies like LQWD and others in the space are managing it at higher level in terms of what the capacity and they have the resources to do so. So I think you're seeing the professionalization of the network. It's getting a lot more mature. The code itself and then the stability of all that stuff. Years ago, 30% of the transactions would work, most would fail.

那时非常实验性。现在99.9%都能成功，除非遇到极端情况才会出问题。用户甚至察觉不到自己在使用它。随着我们跨越这道门槛，这个优势还在持续增强。

Was very experimental. Now it's majority 99.9 unless there's edge cases that just go through no problem. You don't even know you're using it. And that just continues to get stronger and stronger as we've crossed that bridge.

是的。可能让行业外人士惊讶的是，实际流量数字其实有巨大增长。因为他们只盯着存量数字在想'怎么下降了？肯定失败了'，其实不是。

Yeah, I think it's a, yeah. So we have seen, we, that's maybe the surprising thing that let's say outsiders to this industry, they don't realize that that there's actually been a huge growth in the actual flow number because many of them are looking at this stock number and thinking, oh, what? It's going down. Must be failing. No.

实际上可以说效率变得更高了，对吧？用更少的资本就能高效完成支付路由。

It's actually, you could argue it's actually becoming more efficient, right? It's more efficient use of that of smaller amount of capital to actually route these payments and

当然。

For sure.

正如你所知，我想你在香港跟我提过，人们当时对Cash App背后的公司Block（前身为Square）公开表示他们一直在处理这些资金并从中获得收益时，感到相当惊讶。闪电网络的内部人士可能知道这点，但外界确实不太了解。

As as you know, and I think you mentioned this to me in Hong Kong, you know, people were looking, were kind of surprised by when, miles from, block, AKA the company behind cash app came out and said, you know, we've been routing all this money, you know, and we made all this yield on it. It's, I guess lightning insiders would know. Yeah. He's he's correct. But outsiders didn't really know that.

百分之百正确。这确实分散了一些注意力，而且这个领域还有其他事情在发生，这其实很完美，因为我们能在熊市期间低调建设。公司就是这样成长起来的，过程艰难但也令人兴奋，因为你有明确的发展空间和更少的干扰。

100%. Yeah. And that's kinda what you know, it it lost some attention and there's other things going on in the space here, and that's perfect because we were able to build during, you know, bear markets and build where things are quiet. And that's how companies are made. It's tough but it's also exciting because you get a clear runway and less distraction.

所以是的，网络本身的流动性更强了。我们看到更多集成和采用，为下一步发展奠定了基础。通过Tapper数字资产，其他资产也将流通其中，无论你是不是比特币极端主义者。我不打算争论这个，只是务实地说会有其他东西流通。这是一个开放的支付网络，就像比特币和闪电网络一样，它是道德中立的信任协议，不在乎你是谁、做什么。它就是能运作。

So yeah, network itself, a lot more flow. We're seeing a lot more integrations, lot more adoptions and the groundwork is laid for the next thing, will be other assets will go across it through Tapper Digital Assets, whether you're a Bitcoin Max or not. I'm not here to argue that, I'm just pragmatic saying there will be other things that will go across it. It is an open payment network And just like, you know, Bitcoin and Lightning, you know, it is a morally agnostic trust protocol that doesn't care who you are, what you are, what you do. It just works.

任何人都可以使用它，就像互联网一样，无论你是好人、坏人还是无所谓的人，它都不在乎。这就是为什么我认为闪电网络会持续被采用，以各种方式被使用。我曾对Visa说过：无论你喜不喜欢，总有一天你会使用闪电网络，这是不可避免的趋势，因为它就是互联网。这让我想起90年代中期，当时银行们虽然喜欢互联网的概念，但又害怕它充满黑客。

Anyone can use it just like the Internet, whether you are a good person, bad person, or indifferent, it doesn't care. And that's where you're going to see this as, you know, continued adoption here of Lightning for used in ways in my prediction, I've said this to Visa, you will use the Lightning Network someday whether you like it or not, it is the sound of inevitability because it is the Internet. And it reminded me of my time when back in the, you know, the mid nineties where, you know, they the I remember it was we had the r three stuff for blockchain. I think that came up a few years ago, but ultimately, back in the mid nineties, the banks were like, you know, we really like the idea of the Internet, but it scares us because it's full of hackers.

私有互联网的想法。

The private Internet idea.

那太糟糕了。他们想着'我们要搞私有互联网，配上二十一点和酒水，绝对棒极了'。结果银行们花大价钱互相连接，却无法达成共识或理解，最终失败了。而那个TCP/IP协议，那个互联网的东西反而表现出色，因为它是一个道德中立的开放网络，向所有人敞开大门。你不需要把任何人接入你的私有网络，你本身就处在一个开源系统中。

It's terrible. It's all so we're gonna go private Internet and we're gonna have blackjack and and drinks, it's gonna be awesome. They'll spend all kinds of money interconnecting banks, and nobody could get along or understand it and that failed and inevitably that TCP IP thing, that Internet thing seems to be quite interesting because it is a morally agnostic network that just opens the doors to anybody. You don't have to onboard anybody to your private network. You just you're onboard in an open source.

同样的情况也适用于闪电网络，这就是我们目前所观察到的现象。我们希望继续保持这种态势，并会密切关注。对我们而言，我们将努力获取更多比特币，力争突破千枚大关并持续增持，确保尽可能多的比特币投入使用。我们非常好奇未来30到60天内会发生什么，因为我们将持续注入更多比特币，观察收益率变化。作为上市公司，我们当然会保持高度透明，分享信息、公布进展、汇报收益和运作情况。目前一切顺利，我们对现状感到振奋，但我们会耐心等待后续发展。

And the same thing with Lightning, where it's just you know, that's what we're seeing here. We wanna continue to see that, and we'll keep a close eye on it. For us, we're just gonna work to get, you know, more Bitcoin coming up here as we we wanna get to our thousand mark and beyond and make sure we have as much of it deployed as possible. And we're going to be very curious what's going to happen over the next thirty, sixty days here as we continue to pour more Bitcoin onto our nose and continue to see what the yields look like and we'll be very transparent about it, of course, as a public company, and we'll share the information and tell people where we're at and what we're earning and how it's working. So, so far so good and we're very excited for what we're seeing, but we're going to wait, come back.

我们将采用数据驱动的方法，这种方法让我们走到今天，也将引领我们迈向下一步。

We're going to use our data driven approach that's got us here to continue to get us to the next step.

本节目由CoinKite赞助，他们制造了我最爱的比特币硬件钱包Coldcard Q。有人认为自我托管太难，但这实际上是关于对比特币财富负责，理解自我托管能带来真正的自由感。Coldcard Q配备全键盘和大屏幕，拥有双安全元件和真正的物理隔离，支持从种子生成到交易签名的全流程二维码离线操作。设备使用三节AAA电池供电，无需插电。可轻松搭配PC端的Sparrow Wallet或移动端的Nunchuck使用，并能根据需求自定义安全等级和复杂程度。

This episode is brought to you by CoinKite, the makers of my favorite Bitcoin hardware wallet, the Coldcard Q. Now some people think self custody is too hard, but it's really about taking responsibility for your Bitcoin wealth and understanding that self custody gives you a true feeling of liberty. The Coldcard Q has a full keyboard and big screen, it's got two secure elements and a true air gap allowing you to go fully air gapped using QR codes from seed generation to transaction signing. You can power the device using three AAA batteries so you don't even have to plug it into the wall for power. You can easily use it with Sparrow Wallet for PC or Nunchuck on mobile and you can dial it into the right level of security and complexity that you choose.

若想要简单设置，只需使用12个单词和单签名。想要密码保护也很容易。如需添加多重签名或联合签名功能也一应俱全。访问coinkite.com，使用优惠码LAVERRA可享Coldcard及其他设备九折优惠，立即升级您的自我托管方案。我想无论是国库投资者还是闪电网络爱好者，大家最关心的问题就是：如你们数据显示，24天内投入19.75个BTC实现24%年化收益率——

If you want a simple setup just use 12 words and single signature. If you want passphrases easy. If you want to add multisig or co signing features you've got those too. So go to coinkite.com use code LAVERRA to get 10% off on your cold card or other devices and level up your self custody today. So I guess probably a big question for a lot of people whether they're on the treasury investor side of things or the lightning nerd side of things, as your stat says 19.75 BTC over twenty four days to achieve 24% annualized yield.

这些数字相当可观。很多人会质疑：用20个BTC做到是一回事，但用200甚至1000个BTC还能实现吗？你认为收益率会从24%下降吗？

Mean, these are some pretty big numbers. And I think the question mark from a lot of people will be, okay. It's one thing to do that with, let's say, 20 BTC, but could you do that with 200 or a thousand BTC? What are your thoughts there? Or do you think that number comes down instead of 24% yield?

会降到15%吗？还是10%？我不确定。

Is it, I don't know, 15%? Is it 10%? I don't know.

这确实要看情况，因为这是个加权年利率——我们并非同时开通所有通道。但我们需要一个能衡量资金周转效率的指标，比如通道开通速度、收益生成速度以及资金部署速度，这些都会影响我们内部称为LNAV的指标。我认为当前系统还有很大容量空间，看起来我们能部署更多资金，但作为上市公司，我不想做出任何前瞻性声明。未来30到60天内我们会持续观察，并尽快向股东汇报进展和成果。

I well, it really depends because that's a weighted APR because we didn't open all the channels at the same time, but we needed to get a metric that let us understand the velocity, like how that's our velocity, our torque, how quickly we're opening channels and how quickly we're going to yield on and how quickly we could deploy all that kind of stuff, know, and that gets down to our LNAV, as we call it internally. And really, so I do think there's a lot more capacity in there. So far, looks like that we could deploy quite a bit more, but I don't want to give any forward looking statements to the market as a public company. We will see over the next thirty-sixty days here, and we will report back as quickly as we can to our shareholders of what we've done and how

它正在运行，

it's working,

什么是可能的，就活在现实世界中。但与此同时，作为一家独特的财政公司，我们是一家独特的财政公司，你能接触到比特币的价格。它支撑着我们的资产负债表，你还能获得闪电网络的潜在收益，在我看来——当然我有非常偏颇的观点——但我认为它被严重低估了，终有一天，我们可能现在就看到它开始真正反映在我们的股价和其他一切方面。话虽如此，我们正处于行业整合阶段。这是我总喜欢说的，就像你在阻挡海洋一样。

what's possible and just be in the world of reality. But at the same time, as a treasury company, we're a unique treasury company, you get access to, you get tied to the price of Bitcoin. It underpins our balance sheet and you get also the potential upside of Lightning, which in my view, and of course I have a very biased view, but I think it's very undervalued and very underrated and there will come a time and we potentially seeing it play out now where that starts to actually reflect on our share price and everything else that's going for. Now, that said, we're consolidation in phase in the sector. It's one of these things I always like, you know, you're holding back the ocean.

有时候你做什么并不重要。每个人都在争先恐后地发布消息来支撑他们的股票，但这从来都不奏效。这个行业正在遭受打击，你只能挺过去。你无法阻挡海洋，所以你必须在这里战术上聪明一点，是的，脸皮厚一点，挺过去。

It doesn't matter what you do sometimes. Everybody was racing to get news up to support their stock and that just never works. You know, the sector is just taking its beating, and you just gotta work your way through it. You and you can't hold back the ocean, so you just gotta be you gotta be tactically smart here and just be, you know, just Yeah. Have some thick skin and get through it.

所以

So

但有趣的是，拥有这个基于闪电网络的运营业务实际上让你能够获得收益，即使你处于所谓的熊市，因为这里真正重要的是流量。对吧？就像我们说的，如果有足够的闪电网络流量，当然假设LQWD节点在其中并赚取一些路由费用，那么你就在熊市中赚取收益。这其实是一个有趣的观点。

But it is interesting then that, having this lightning based operational business is actually allowing you to yield even even if you are in a quote, unquote bear market because what matters here is actually the flow. Right? Like we're talking about. If there's enough lightning flow and of course assuming, you know, LQWD nodes are in the middle of it and earning some routing fees, then you're earning yield in the bear market. So that's actually an interesting, kind of point.

所以我很好奇你的想法，我们看到的是流量的长期增长，还是它与牛市和熊市相关？

So I'm curious your thought there on, you know, we seeing like a secular growth in the flows or is it kind of correlated with bull and bear markets?

不，我认为我们看到的是实际流量本身的长期增长。我认为这更多是结构性的。我认为这真正始于我们讨论过的技术问题达到拐点，我们在这里看到更多结构性的事情发生，这实际上是我对此感到兴奋的原因。它并不依赖于牛市或熊市。

No, I think we're seeing a secular growth in actual flows itself. Think it's much more structural. I think it really started with the technical stuff that's hitting its inflection point as we talked about, and we're seeing more structural stuff happen here, which is actually why I'm excited about it. It's not sort of reliant upon bull or bear.

对，数字上涨了，没错。

Yeah, number go up, yeah.

数字上涨这类事情，这里有一个结构性变化，这正是我想要密切关注的部分，看这部分增长有多快，我们的判断是否正确，但最终我们相信自己是正确的，并据此行动。对我们来说，就像你说的，我们提高每股统计数据。每赚取约3500万统计数据，我们的每股统计数据就增加一个，我们要尽可能快地提高这个数字。然后通过使用MNAV，即国库模型筹集资金、购买比特币、可能通过债务购买比特币。只要网络收益率超过我们可能需要偿还的债务成本，我们就会对债务感兴趣。

Number go up kind of thing, There's a structural change here and that's what I want to keep a close eye on to see how quickly that part is growing and how correct we are or incorrect, but ultimately we feel we are correct and take it from there. So for us, yeah, like you said, we grow our stats per share. You know, about every 35,000,000 stats we earn, our stats per share goes up by one, and we to have that go up as quickly as possible with the stats per share and grow that. Then between using the MNAV, it's treasury model raising capital, buying Bitcoin, potential debt to buy Bitcoin. We would be interested in the debt provided that our yield on the network outpaced the what we'd to potentially pay back.

但与此同时，这不在考虑范围内，因为这不现实。目前提出的条款是不可接受的，我们不会那样做，我们只专注于可控之事。这是个令人兴奋的领域，我认为这是突破的契机。就闪电网络和其他方面而言，我们希望其他公司能加入，但我们打算保持市场领导地位，拥有人们认可和信赖的品牌，这也是我们利用公开市场的原因之一。

And but in the meantime, that's not on the table because that's not reality. The terms that are coming in are unacceptable and we wouldn't do that, but we're just going to focus on what we can control and you know, that's exciting space here and I think this is a chance for things to break out. So in terms of Lightning and everything else, then we hope that other companies will come along, but we we intend to remain a market leader and have the brand that people recognize and trust, and that's one of the reasons we're leveraging the public markets to do so.

好的。说到闪电网络，正如你提到的，增加交易流量，随着时间推移，这部分确实在增长。有趣的是，即使在交易领域，像Breeze SDK这样的工具正在接入更多钱包，流量在增加。我们开始看到ARC等技术的出现，就是ARC实验室那帮人开发的。

Yeah. Okay. Now speaking of Lightning Network and as you mentioned, you know, increasing that flow of, transactions so that you you know, now over time, that is growing, as you said, and it's interesting to see as an example, even in the transactional space, things like, Breeze SDK, kind of plugging in more wallets, and now there's more flow. We're starting to see things like ARC. So the arcade guys from ARC Labs rather.

应该说ArcLabs团队，他们正在尝试让ARC能够直接支持闪电网络。这让我觉得闪电网络正开始被视为各种L2之间交流的方式。不仅是闪电网络，还有ARC、Spark、Ecache或Liquid，它们都被视为相互交流的渠道。

ArcLabs guys, I should say, with their technology. Arcade, they're trying to, you know, have Arc that can speak lightning per se. So that's kinda it sort of spells out to me that lightning is starting to be get a bit of, it's starting to become seen as the way that mult you know, various l twos speak. Right? Whether they're not just Lightning, but ARC or Spark or even the Ecache or Liquid, it's sort of the it's being seen as the way that they speak.

随着更多人使用这些L2解决方案，最终这些流量都会汇聚到闪电网络上。

So as more people get using any of these L twos, it's sort of that volume ends up coming to lightning.

这个说法很好，我平时谈得不够多，你提出这点后我以后肯定会多讨论。你说得对，这就像是为所有不同L2提供统一层，让它们通过闪电网络互联互通。它们增长，我们也随之增长。作为基础设施提供商，我们随着比特币的增长而增长，这影响国库、融资能力等方方面面。闪电网络正以每季度25%甚至更快的速度超速增长，而其他L2如ARC等，正如你所说，将其作为统一层使用，也在加速整个生态的发展。

It's a good way of putting it and you know, it's something I don't talk enough about and I think I probably will after after you bringing up that point so I'm gonna I'm definitely gonna borrow that for future for future discussions but you are correct and and certainly it's a you know it's like a unified layer for all these you know everyone all these different L2s speaking together and running across lightning and so yeah they as they grow, we grow. And that's the one thing we'd like to talk about. As an infrastructure provider, we grow with the growth of Bitcoin because that affects treasuries, affects our ability to raise capital and all those things. We grow with the growth of Lightning, which is, you know, some of the stats are it's growing 25% a quarter and probably beyond and hyper accelerating. And certainly on the other L2s and the like ARC, all the things you talked about there just in using it as well as a unified layer just continues to accelerate what's going on.

我们的工作就是处在资金流动的中心，出于多种原因支持这个网络。首先，我们要为股东创造利润。我们要确立自己的地位。同时我们也是比特币的坚定信仰者，相信它能给世界带来的改变。人的一生中能真正影响世界运作方式的机会寥寥无几。

And so our job is just to, you know, be in the middle of the money flow and help support the network for a lot of reasons. One, we want to make money for our shoulders. We want to establish our spot. We're also hardcore Bitcoiners and we believe in what it can do for around the world. You get very few opportunities in your life to leave an impact or something that will truly change how the world will work.

在我的职业生涯中，我很幸运能够从事互联网相关工作，那一切都是关于自由、民主发声、学习、知识以及最终的电子商务。它的使用方式甚至超出了我们最初的设想。我们知道这一天会到来。有趣的是我记得那时候如果你在网站上放广告，社区会公开谴责你，说你比希特勒还恶劣。

I've been fortunate in my career to be able to work on Internet stuff, which was all about freedom and democratic voices and learning and knowledge and ultimately e commerce. And it was used in ways that we didn't even see in the beginning. We knew it would come. It was interesting because I remember back in that time there where if you put an ad on your website, the community would call you out. You were worse than Hitler.

你会背叛这项事业。我当时就说，互联网会被用于你不一定认同的方式，但它是一个开放网络，会被各种分析利用。它会用于你喜欢或不喜欢的事物，但最终会让世界变得更好。所以你必须接受这一点。比特币也是如此。

You would betray the cause. And I was just like, look, the Internet will be used in ways that you don't necessarily agree with, but it is an open network and it'll be analyzed. It'll be using things that you like, things you don't like, but it will change the world for the better ultimately. And and and so you just have to get out of here. And same thing with Bitcoin.

有些人会以我们不认同的方式使用它。他们可能会...最终，虽然我不愿说是自由市场，但市场会自行调节，它会按照自己的规律发展。它将被用于我们尚未见过的方式。感谢闪电网络，我们即将迎来像资金流这样的新事物。

It's some people will use in ways we don't agree with. They may to and and ultimately, the you know, I guess, hate to say the free markets, but the markets will figure it out and it'll just march along and do its thing. It'll be used in ways we haven't even seen yet. Thanks for Lightning. We have things like streaming money coming down the line.

我们有机器对机器支付，有各种我们甚至无法想象的新事物。它们将利用现有优势创造下一个优势，并不断推进发展。

We have machine to machine payments. We have all kinds of things that we can't even imagine yet. They'll just be leveraging the current strength for the next strength and taking that forward.

是的。我们之前提到过另一个领域，比如树根资产。简单来说，闪电实验室团队推出了他们的协议，而今年一月左右，Tether的Paolo宣布Tether将支持树根资产。这是世界上最大的稳定币现在可以通过树根资产获取的一个例子。

Yeah. Now one other area we touched on this earlier, taproot assets as an example. So, I guess I'll just offer a very quick kind of, the idea is the Lightning Labs guys came out with their, protocol and Tether, I think as of January or so this year, Paolo from Tether announced that basically Tether would be coming to tapered assets. So this is one example. The largest stablecoin in the world is now available on taproot assets.

我们将看到各种钱包开始相互通信，即使发送方或接收方不一定关心比特币BTC，他们可能对赚取（比如这个例子中的）Tether或用Tether支付感兴趣，交易双方可以使用不同的资产。比如商家可能想赚取其他币种或其他稳定币。这是一个例子。我知道还有RGB，这是另一种智能合约和资产协议。但我想说的是，树根资产代表了另一个可能吸引非比特币用户的领域。

And so what we're going to see is various wallets that will start speaking to each other, even if the sender or the receiver don't necessarily care about Bitcoin BTC, they may be interested in earning, let's say, Tether in this example, or paying with Tether, and it could be like different assets on either side of that exchange. So let's say the merchant, he wants to earn something else or, you know, some other coin or some other stable coin. And this is one example. Now I know also there's RGB, which is another smart contract and asset, protocol. But I guess the point here is tapered assets represents another thing that may bring in people who are not necessarily Bitcoiners.

对吧？这些人可能想要稳定币的功能。那么你认为这会对交易量产生什么影响？你对此有什么看法或知道相关情况吗？

Right? These may be people who want the stable coin aspect of it. So what do you think that will do in terms of driving volume? Do you have any thoughts on that or where is that?

确实。我们在加拿大已经做了一些初步工作。Tether仍被归类为证券，而USDC则不是。这里有些奇怪的现象。我最近写了一篇名为《枫叶法案》的论文，已提交给影子财政部长等人，主要是试图推动这些事项进展，并阐述我们对发展路径的看法。

Definitely. Yeah, we've done some preliminary work on it in Canada. The Tether is still classified as a security where USDC is not. There's some weird things going on there. I recently wrote a paper called the Maple Act, which was put in front of the Shadow Finance Minister and stuff like that, to basically to try to move these things along and give our view on how it can unfold.

但这可能是一个30万亿美元的市场，即使你是比特币极端主义者，有人通过钱包使用稳定币，也会让他们接触到整个数字资产领域，而使用便利性将提升比特币的声誉。美元不会明天就消失，比特币本身对其不构成威胁，真正威胁法币的是糟糕的政策。最终我们希望看到美元继续由比特币支撑。

But it is potentially a $30,000,000,000,000 market and even if you're a Bitcoin Maxi, somebody using a stablecoin off of a wallet, it's going to expose them to the whole digital asset space and the comfortability of using it will just enhance Bitcoin's reputation. But the U. S. Dollar is not going to go away tomorrow and Bitcoin's not a threat to it per se, it's bad policy, which is really the threat to any of these fiat currencies. Ultimately we'll see, hopefully we'll see the US dollar continue to be backed by Bitcoin.

但它将穿越闪电网络。我们认为这是个巨大机遇。那里可以赚很多钱。它将实现最后一公里触达。我一直不明白为什么像伊丽莎白·沃伦这样的人始终无法理解：如果允许像Tether这样的稳定币——它们需要购买巨额美债来持续支持美国政府——就能直接触达地球上每个人的终端消费。这对美国非常有利。

But it will traverse the Lightning Network. We think it's a huge opportunity. There's a lot of money to be made there. It will have last mile reach. I never understood why the Elizabeth Warren to the world and stuff could never wrap their minds around the fact that if you allow stablecoins like Tether who have to buy unbelievable amounts of U.

这将对美国非常有利，但他们却因各种银行安排而作茧自缚——那些银行可能在支持他们的选举，我不知道幕后发生了什么——他们就是无法理解这对任何能利用它的国家都极具威力，而美元无疑将是主要驱动力。但比特币仍将作为重要标志存在，人们会大量接触它。

S. Treasuries and continue to back the US government and has last mile reached every single person in the planet direct consumer. That's very powerful for The United States, but they couldn't get out of their own way for whatever banking arrangements who were backing their part of backing their elections or who I don't know what was going on behind the scenes there, but they simply just could not get themselves out of the way of understanding this is very powerful for whatever nation can leverage it and certainly the US dollar will be the driving factor across that. But Bitcoin will, you know, still a marker going across there. People are going get a lot of exposure to it.

它将继续成为人们想要的硬资产。我们在北美或迪拜讨论比特币波动性时，虽然货币在贬值但仍相对稳定。但世界上其他地区呢？你想要黎巴嫩元还是比特币？我们常忘记自己生活在泡沫中——世界上很多地方腐败严重，货币和政府都极度腐败。

It's going continue to be that hard asset that people want and it's, you know, if you're we talk about volatility in Bitcoin and because, know, we're here in North America or Dubai, have, you know, relatively stable currencies even though it's melting away. But if you're in other parts of the world, know, what do you want? Do you want to have Lebanese dollars? Do want to have Bitcoin? And we forget that about our little bubble that a lot of the world is just that there's high corruption, the money is highly corrupt, the governments are highly corrupt.

这是我在《信任与比特币崛起》一书中讨论的重点。这实质上是知识帝国主义——在比特币崛起背景下的腐败问题。有些国家深陷腐败泥潭，我们作为发达国家做了什么？我们通过提供更好生活来挖走他们最优秀的人才，因为这里更清廉，不用搞关系。我们为给予机会而兴奋，却忘了有时我们带走了他们最杰出的人才。

And this is one of the things I talked about in my book called Trust on the Rise of Bitcoin. Really, it's just about intellectual imperialism, corruption on the rise of Bitcoin, where, we have these nations that are mired in corruption for as long as I can remember. What do we do as nations there? Well, we strip mine their intellectual capacity by bringing them over to Canada and North America by offering them a better way of life because it's less corrupt here, you can get ahead, you don't have to play the game. And so we're all excited that we give these people opportunity, but we forget that sometimes we've taken their best and their brightest.

我们夺走了他们的医生、律师和领袖，而他们深陷于永远无法修复的体系中。他们的货币体系和治理体系都已崩溃。现在我把希望寄托在比特币上——这种能重建信任的事物，相信经过几代人的努力，他们的货币体系将得到巩固，政府将实现透明化。想想为什么我们要派联合国去战乱地区？因为当人们拥有透明度时，战争罪行就会减少。

We've taken their doctors, taken their lawyers, taken their leaders, and they're just mired in systems that are broken forever. They have broken money and broken governance. Now my hope is with Bitcoin and all the trust that can come out of this thing, that over the course of a couple generations you're going to see their money system will be solidified, their government will have transparency. You know, why do we send the United Nations into a war torn area? Because when people have visibility, they're less likely to have war crimes.

如果这些国家拥有比特币，腐败就会减少。如果能提升他们在腐败指数上的排名——比如芬兰得分92分，索马里仅8分垫底——那么整个世代、全体国民都将获得更好的人生机遇。比特币的愿景就是：修复货币体系，修复世界秩序，同时在数字时代减少腐败、重建信任。虽然全球互联网普及率还远未达到100%，但随着网络持续覆盖，这些国家将迎来转机，而闪电网络将成为关键组成部分——它道德中立、人人可用。这正是我们团队希望留下的遗产，若能实现将无比美妙。我们会为此努力，这就是我们预见的发展方向。

If you have Bitcoin in these nations, you're less likely to have corruption. If you could move them up the corruption index, you know, Finland being at score 92, Somalia with eight dead last, and everything in between, you can have an entire generation and entire population with a better chance at being successful in life. So this is the hope for Bitcoin is, you know, fix the money, fix the world, but also reduce corruption, allow for trust to happen there in the digital age. And as the internet still continues to roll out, as there's not a higher 100% penetration around the world yet, far from it, we're going to see a chance for these countries to do a lot better and lightning will be a big component of that and it's the you know, morally agnostic and anyone can use it and that's one of the hopes of you know, if that's what I get to leave behind and we as a team get to leave behind and we can look back that, then that would be amazing. And so we'll work to see that happen, but that's kind of where we see these things going.

不知道刚才怎么跑题了，但这些确实是我这几天一直在思考的事。

I don't know when I went off at a tangent there, but you know, that was on my mind over the last few days here.

对，没错。我觉得很多比特币信徒和极端主义者都会持类似观点——比特币能解决这些问题。至少它能改善当前诸多社会、文化和经济问题。也许无法面面俱到，但顺其自然吧。

Yeah. Right. I, yeah, I, I think I, you know, I think many, you know, Bitcoiners and Bitcoin maxi is going to see it in somewhat of a similar way that, you know, Bitcoin fixes this. So we think a lot of these social and cultural issues and economic issues of the day, will be enhanced with Bitcoin at least. Maybe it's not gonna fix every little thing, but, you know, so be it.

从宏观视角看矿业公司，我思考的另一个问题是：为什么有些矿业公司没有获得显著的资产净值溢价？比如某些比特币矿业公司...

I guess zooming out with treasury companies, do you I guess one of the maybe one other question I was thinking about is some of the treasury companies haven't really been, quote, unquote, rewarded with a big MNAV premium. No. I'm curious. Is that you know? And and in some cases, was, the Bitcoin mining company.

以Mara为例，他们持有超过5万枚比特币，但市场并未给予多少资产净值溢价。这是因为矿业业务的风险和运营成本吗？还是人们难以将纯粹的比特币资产管理与运营业务区分开来？

So for example, Mara, they've got, know, a big stack. They've got 50,000 plus BTC, but and yet the market's not really kind of rewarding them with much of an MNAV premium per se. Now is that because of the risk and the operational cost associated with the mining business? Is it some other is it just people are maybe struggling to sort of disaggregate, let's say, the pure play Bitcoin treasury side of things with the operational side of things?

说得太对了。矿业确实有趣但成本高昂，设备淘汰速度太快。我早期就参与过比特币挖矿，帮忙建立矿场，现在还用Bitaxe单机挖矿。但现实是：要想成为矿工，必须控制电力成本。

Spot on there. Yeah. I think it's know, you got all the mining stuff that's interesting, but it's been associated with high cost. You know the gear gets outdated too quickly. At the end of the day, in my view, and I've done Bitcoin mining from early on, I've helped set up you know Bitcoin mines and I'm solo mining right now off my bid axe and everything else, but the reality is, you know, if you're going to be a miner, you need to control your power cost.

电力公司才应该是最终进行挖矿的主体，我一直这么认为。你看，BC省政府和BC水电局这些机构，如果他们当初够聪明，就该利用多余电力来挖矿。他们可以无限期挖矿，电力成本为零。看看不丹

The power companies are the ones who should be ultimately mining, and I've always said this, you know, the BC government here, all the institutions of BC Hydro, if they were smart enough in the day, they would have taken excess power and mined it. They can mine indefinitely. Their cost for power is zero. So really Look at what Bhutan

或其他一些国家的做法。

did or some of these other countries.

没错。所以未来要想成为比特币矿工，本质上要么收购电力公司，要么被电力公司收购。在我看来，这就是下一阶段的竞争方向——既然有多余电力，为什么不利用呢？这就是我的观点。而且我认为市场确实已经将Myra这类公司的风险溢价考虑进去了，当然这可能会随时间变化。

Exactly. And so if you're going to be a Bitcoin miner of the future, you need to basically buy the power company or the power company buy them. And that's where the race is going to get to, in my view, in the next leg here, where, you know, if you have excess power, why wouldn't you? So, you know, that's kind of it. And I think, yeah, you're definitely seeing that risk price in my view that risk priced in for Myra and stuff like that, which is you know that may change over time.

随着市场走强，比特币突破14万美元时，所有预测都将失效。但纯业务公司在这个领域并未受到足够关注。在我看来，这完全取决于他们所处的市场。MetaPlanet和MicroStrategy就很有意思——后者巧妙利用了债券市场，而MetaPlanet则独辟蹊径进入了日本市场。那里存在无法直接接触比特币的特殊账户体系

Certainly as the markets you know strengthens and the Bitcoin breaks out to 140 then you know all bets are off, but it's the pure plays and some companies aren't getting the love in the space here, but in my view it really depends what market they're in. I think MetaPlanet of course MicroStrategy is very interesting they tapped into the bond market, they've, you know, very clever in the way they've done that, but MetaPlanet also has tapped into the Japanese market, which is very unique. You have a market that can't get access directly to Bitcoin in the different, you know, accounts they

可能存在税收套利之类的机会。

may There's like a tax arbitrage or something like this.

完全正确。日本面临严重的债券问题，无法从债券中获得收益。他们正处于一个绝佳位置——就像加拿大率先推出比特币ETF一样，当地有上市渠道。对我们而言，作为同时在加拿大和美国上市的公司，独特之处在于我们既是国库公司又具备运营视角。某些市场确实可能因此更具优势，获得更多曝光。但作为初创公司，现阶段我们升级到主板前还无法获得债券市场的优先股。

Absolutely, and they have a massive bond problem and they can't get yield in the bond. They're in this real sweet spot where, say in Canada or from others, this was the place where the first Bitcoin ETF ever happened and so there's options to get to listed there. So you know for us it's about, you know, in the Canadian market and we're listed in The US as well, is to be unique that we're a treasury company with an operating angle that we were passionate about. And so I think some markets just may be stronger than others simply because of that and they may be bigger, they get more exposure. But structurally, know, as a junior company, we're not going to get access to preferred shares of the bond market at this point if we upgrade to the big board.

这是个规模问题，等你们发展壮大后情况就会不同。

It's question of size and once you grow and so on.

确实如此。所以你必须突破那个规模限制，这可能会在接下来的周期内发生。你可能会看到其他MetaPlanets或其他更聪明的网络公司加入竞争。毫无疑问我们将参与这场竞赛，但我们也有运营业务，通过赚取SATs并持续购买、部署和赚取比特币。这就是我们的策略，仅此而已。

Absolutely. So you got to break through that size limit and that may happen over this next cycle here. You may see some other, you know, other MetaPlanets, other smarter web companies kick in here. Then we're going to be in that race, no question, but we also have our operating business where we earn SATs and we continue to buy Bitcoin, deploy Bitcoin, earn Bitcoin. That's our playbook and that's it.

要知道，我们非常直白易懂，就是尽可能多地把比特币纳入资产负债表，尽可能多地部署在闪电网络上，尽可能多地赚取闪电网络上的统计数据。周而复始，就这么简单。

You know, we're very straightforward to understand, get as much Bitcoin in the balance sheet as we possibly can coming up here and deploy as much as we can on the Lightning Network and earn as many stats as we can on Lightning Network. Rinse and repeat. Simple as that.

好的。我认为这是个不错的结束点。听众们应该思考一下，评估不同公司的不同风险。利弊各是什么？一方面，你需要评估公司的运营能力如何？

All right. Well, I think that's a good spot to finish things off. So I guess listeners should, you know, think about that, assess the different risks of different companies. What are the pros and the cons? I guess on one side, yeah, you have to assess, okay, what's the operational capability of the company?

他们能否保障代币安全？能否保障统计数据安全，特别是在闪电网络上？但一旦他们运营了一段时间，你会想，好吧，他们已经做了几年并且实现了盈利增长。所以我们就说到这里吧。最后还有什么要说的吗？或者人们在哪里可以在线找到你们？

Are they, can they secure the coins? Can secure the stats, especially in the lighting But once they've been operating for some time, you think, okay, well they've been doing it for a few years now and profitably growing. So yeah, I guess let's leave it there. Any final call out or where, where can people find you online?

是的，你可以在X上找到我，账号是Sean Ansty，当然还有我们的网站lqwdtech.com，我们在X上也有账号。我们尽量全方位覆盖。有个社区可以找到我们。LQWD是我们在多伦多证券交易所的股票代码，LQWDF是OTCQX的代码，欢迎随时联系我们，了解一下。我相信你会喜欢你所看到的。

Yeah, you can find, well, you can find myself at Sean Ansty on X and then certainly lqwdtech.com, that's our website and also on X as well. Try to be all over there. There is a community to find us. LQWD is our ticker symbol on the Toronto Stock Exchange, LQWDF on the OTCQX, but feel free to reach out, check us out. I'd like to think you'll like what you see here.

我们非常独特，作为上市公司非常透明，对我们正在做的事情和方式非常坦率，我们没有偏离方向去追逐其他花哨的东西。我们是比特币长期信仰者，对这个领域深信不疑，技术实力过硬。正如你提到的闪电网络，确实能保障代币安全。我喜欢闪电网络的一点是你可以获得收益，没有对手方风险，我们不出让密钥，不涉及Celsius那样的平台，而是实实在在赚取收益。当然随着技术发展存在技术风险，可能存在我们未知的因素，不过这项技术已经存在相当长时间，相当成熟了。但技术风险确实存在。

We're very unique, transparent as a public company, we're very upfront about what we're doing and how we're doing it, and we haven't veered off into some other chasing the next shiny thing here. We are Bitcoiners, we've been Bitcoin for a long time, we believe heavily in the space, we're technically competent. As you mentioned, Lightning Network, sure, secure coins there. What I like about Lightning is there's your earned yield, there's no counterparty risk, we don't give up our keys, we're not dealing with a Celsius, we're earning that. There's technology risk as technology moves forward here, potential you know things that we may not know, although it's been out there for quite some time, so that there's a lot of maturity in that, but you know, there's certainly the potential for technology risk.

不过我们已经建立了控制措施来最小化这些风险。我们对未来发展方向感到非常兴奋。请继续关注我们未来30到60天的动向。我们正在积极部署更多比特币，加速推进我们的Yield N Sats项目。我们称之为YISS项目（Y I S，Yield N Sats）。不知道这个名字是否够巧妙，但这只是个内部代号。我们还在完善其他指标，比如LNAV，并将其与MNAV等各项业务相结合。

But we have, you know, controls in place to minimize all of that, but certainly we're very excited where we're going. Stay tuned to what we're doing over the next thirty, sixty days here. We are aggressively deploying more Bitcoin here to see just ramping up our Yield N Sats. We call it Project YISS, Y I S, Yield N Sats. I don't know if that was a clever name or not, but it's just an internal name and we're working on some of our other metrics like LNAV and marrying it with the MNAV and everything else that we're doing here.

我们将继续打造并完善这个独特的比特币闪电网络资金库公司模式，它结合了MNAV和LNAV指标，我们在做的事情非常具有针对性。您应该来了解一下我们的项目。如果有任何问题，欢迎随时联系我们。

We're going to create and continue to work on our model of creating this unique Bitcoin Lightning Treasury company that combines MNAV and LNAV and the things that we're doing here to be, you know, very specific in what we do here. You know, if you you should you should check us out. And if you have questions, feel free to reach out.

太棒了。非常感谢您的参与。

Excellent. Well, thank you for joining me.

谢谢您，Stefan。很荣幸能受邀来到这里。

Thank you, Stefan. I appreciate you having me here.