NumoPay：通过Calle轻触支付比特币 | SLP728

我们想看看比特币的碰一碰支付功能。

We wanted to see tap to pay in Bitcoin.

我们都对法定货币的支付体验感到羡慕，你知道的，只要碰一下手机，支付就瞬间完成，大概只花一两秒。

We're all kind of jealous about the fiat payment experience with, you know, you tap your phone and the payment goes through instantly and takes maybe a second or two.

大家好，欢迎回到斯蒂芬·利维拉播客。

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast.

今天，我们再次邀请到我们的朋友卡勒。

Today, we're rejoined by our friend Calle.

卡勒以多项成就闻名，可能最广为人知的是他在Cashu上的工作，同时也参与了BitChat的开发。

Calle is known for a bunch of things, probably mostly known for his work on Cashu, but also working on BitChat.

我知道，卡勒最近推出了一款新产品。

And I know, Calle recently put out this new thing.

它叫NumoPay，我想和你聊聊这个，因为我觉得它非常有趣，我刚刚有机会试用了一下。

It's called NumoPay, I and wanted to chat about that because I thought it's fascinating, I had a quick chance to play around with it.

首先，欢迎回到节目，卡勒。

First off, welcome back to the show, Calle.

嘿，谢谢你邀请我，Stephan。

Hey, thanks for having me, Stephan.

那我们先从最明显的问题开始吧，为什么要做NumoPay？

So let's just start with the obvious, like why why NumoPay?

它的背后有什么故事？

What's the story behind it?

NumoPay是一个我们过去几个月一直在后台秘密开发的支付终端，它是一个开源的支付终端，任何人都可以下载并安装到自己的安卓手机上。

So NumoPay is a payment terminal that we've been working on for quite a while in the background in stealth mode in the last couple months or so, and it's a payment terminal, open source payment terminal that anyone can download and install on their Android phone.

你可以用它在你的实体店铺中接收比特币。

And you can use it to receive Bitcoin in your brick and mortar store, basically.

你可以在任何安卓手机上运行它，或者在那些常见的开源、开源硬件的POS设备上运行，这些设备现在几乎无处不在。

So you can run it on any Android phone out there or on a typical POS device, these open source, open hardware POS devices that are basically everywhere.

而NumoPay的差异化特点，也是我们投入开发它的原因，就是我们希望看到比特币也能实现‘轻触支付’。

And the the differentiating factor and the reason why we've been working on NumoPay was because we wanted to see tap to pay in Bitcoin.

我们都对法币支付体验感到羡慕，你知道的，只要轻轻一碰手机，支付就瞬间完成，大概一两秒就够了。

We're all kind of jealous about the fiat payment experience with, you know, you tap your phone and the payment goes through instantly and takes maybe a second or two.

而对于比特币来说，过去几年我们在用户体验上取得了不错的进展，但在支付方式上却略有停滞——我们几乎都转向了二维码扫描，展示二维码，这在世界许多地方已经很普遍。但全球范围内，人们越来越多地使用信用卡的‘轻触支付’功能。

And with Bitcoin, we kind of achieved good UX over the last couple of years, but we stagnated a little bit in terms of, you know, we all converge to QR codes and scanning, showing QR codes, and that is pretty common in many parts of the world, but all across the world people are using more and more tap to pay using their credit cards.

而NumoPay正是我们为比特币世界带来这种体验的解决方案。

And with NumoPay, that's our approach to bring that kind of experience into the Bitcoin world.

我们能够实现这一点，是通过利用Cashu本身的特性。

And how we were able to achieve this is by leveraging the features or the properties of Cashu itself.

Cashu是一个基于比特币构建的Tromium电子现金系统。

So Cashu is a tromium eCash system that is built on top of Bitcoin.

它提供了一种私密、即时且低成本的比特币支付方式，其支付通道建立在比特币之上。

It kind of gives you a private, instant, cheap way to make Bitcoin payments using payment rails that are built on top of Bitcoin.

它是一个托管型系统。

It is a custodial system.

这意味着当你存入比特币并换取电子现金时，你必须信任某个铸币运营商。

That means you have to trust a mint operator with the Bitcoin when you deposit Bitcoin and receive eCash for it.

电子现金本身具有高度的隐私保护性，它是一种由你存储在设备上的持票资产。

The eCash itself is highly privacy preserving and it's a it's a bearer asset that you store on the device that you hold it on.

所以，例如，这可能是你的手机。

So, for example, that could be your phone.

由于电子现金存储在付款人的手机上，我们现在可以构建这样的体验：当你将手机轻触到Numo终端时，电子现金可以通过NFC芯片从一部手机传输到另一部手机，而这正是构建比特币轻触支付用户体验所需的核心要素。

And because the eCash is stored on the payer's phone, we can now build these experiences where if you tap that phone onto a Numo terminal, the eCash can travel from one phone to another using the NFC chip, and that is exactly kind of the ingredients that you need in order to build this tap to pay UX flow for Bitcoin.

但如今，我们有了一个支持这一功能的开放协议，它几乎可以构建在任何技术之上。

But now with the twist that we have an open protocol that supports this, it can be built on top of basically anything.

显然，我们选择基于比特币构建，并且它具有高度的隐私保护性。

Obviously, we choose to build on Bitcoin, and it is highly privacy preserving.

这意味着我们罕见地实现了用户体验与隐私的完美统一——最佳的隐私方案同时也提供了最佳的用户体验。

That means kind of we have this rare occurrence where UX and privacy are perfectly aligned, where the best privacy option basically also can give you the best UX option.

我认为这并不常见。

And I think that that's that's not typical.

通常，你必须在这两者之间做出权衡，但在电子现金的情况下并非如此。

Usually, you kind of have to make a trade off between the two, but not in the case of eCash.

非常好。

Excellent.

所以，是的，这里面内容很多。

And so, yeah, there's a lot in there.

我们接下来会深入探讨其中一些内容，但我想先聊聊它实际是什么样子的。

We're gonna dive into some of those things, but I guess we'll talk through what it looks like.

我刚刚在手机上试用了它。

Now I had I just played around with it on my phone.

我觉得非常简单。

I found it very simple.

基本上，我的意思是，我可能只需要在屏幕上操作一下，但核心就是你下载并安装这个应用，它能让你快速显示一个二维码。

Basically, I mean, I could probably pull it up just on the screen, but basically, the gist of it is you download, you install this app, and it it allows you to very quickly, show a QR.

这个二维码可以显示一个Cashu，就像一个终端，如果听众在看视频的话，可以看到。

That QR can, you know, show a Cashu, basically, like a terminal that people can if listeners can see if you're watching on the video.

但总的来说，想象一下你正在农贸市场。

But, basically, it looks like just think you're a think about, you know, you're at the farmer's market.

你是那个卖肉或者其他东西的人。

You're the guy selling, you know, meat or whatever.

你可以直接输入你想接收的金额，比如11100美元之类的，然后它就会生成一个二维码。正如你所说，Calle，这里的不同之处在于，你不仅可以像我们平时用比特币闪电网络那样扫码支付，还可以通过触碰来支付。

You can, you know, literally type in, I wanna receive whatever $11,100 it says or whatever it is and just it shows a QR that I guess, to your point, Calle, the difference is here, you can also not just scan to pay like we're used to in Bitcoin with Lightning, but you can also tap to pay.

所以请再详细解释一下，这对听众来说是什么样的体验。

So just elaborate a little bit on what that looks like for listeners.

是的。

Yeah.

所以设置过程非常简单。

So the setup is extremely easy.

你下载这个应用。

You download the app.

你安装它。

You install it.

在设置过程中，就这些了。

And during the setup process, that's it.

你不需要任何额外的软件。

You don't need any additional software.

你不需要在云端运行任何服务器。

You don't need to run a server somewhere in the cloud.

你不需要租用VPS或任何其他东西。

You don't need to get a VPS or anything.

因此，对我们来说，安装过程必须极其流畅，这一点非常重要。

So that was very important for us, that the setup is super seamless.

你一开始唯一需要决定的是选择一个铸币厂，而我们会帮助你完成这一步。

The only thing that you need to decide at the beginning, and we help you with that, is to choose a mint.

这意味着比特币将流入哪里，之后你就可以从中提领出来。

That means where the Bitcoin is going to flow into, and then you can withdraw it from there.

一旦你完成设置，整个过程只需大约五秒，接着你会看到一个非常简单的收银台POS流程——你需要将手机对准摄像头，输入金额。

So once you've done that, and it takes you like five seconds to set it up, you're greeted with this, you know, you are showing it into the camera, basically a super simple checkout POS flow where you enter the amount.

正如你所说，输入金额后，你会看到两个二维码。

And as you said, you're then, you know, once you enter the amount, you see a QR code, and there are two QR codes there.

首先，有一个Cashu二维码，这是一个Cashu支付请求，你也可以切换到闪电网络，我们同时支持这两种方式。

First of all, there is a Cashu QR code, which is a Cashu payment request, and you can also flip on Lightning, and we do both.

基本上，它直接支持Cashu支付，同时也为还没有Cashu钱包的用户支持闪电网络支付。

Basically, it supports Cashu payments directly or Lightning payments for everyone else who doesn't have a Cashu wallet yet.

因此它会同时展示这两种方式，你可以用摄像头扫描二维码；此外，我们还为Cashu和闪电网络都实现了触碰支付功能。

So it presents you both and you can scan those with a camera, but on top of that there's also a tap to pay experience that we've implemented for both Cashu and Lightning.

也就是说，如果你和你的顾客都有Cashu钱包，他们不需要扫描二维码，只需将手机贴近你的手机，他们的Cashu钱包会自动识别这是一笔Cashu支付请求，从设备中选取一些电子现金，并通过NFC发送到收款方的POS设备上。

So that means in the case of Cashu, if you have a Cashu wallet and your customer has a Cashu wallet, they instead of scanning the QR code, they can just tap their phone onto your phone and their Cashu wallet will automatically detect that this is a Cashu payment request and select some eCash from their device and send it over via NFC to the receiver's POS device.

这完全是一种离线支付方式。

So that is a purely offline payment.

顾客的手机甚至不需要联网也能完成支付。

Your customer's phone doesn't really doesn't even need to be online for it.

只要手机里有电子现金，这些现金就能直接在两部手机之间传输，完全不依赖互联网。

As long as there is some eCash in the phone, the eCash will travel directly from one phone to the other without even touching the Internet.

这带来了一些非常酷的功能：首先，它是即时的，你不需要等待连接互联网的延迟。

And that has a couple of very cool features or, you know, gives first of all, it is instant, so you don't have this delay that you need to connect to the Internet.

其次，它不依赖网络连接，因此随时都能正常使用。

Second of all, it is independent of Internet connectivity, so it always works.

只要收款方的POS设备有网络，顾客就始终能够完成支付。

As long as the POS device, the receiver has Internet, the customer will always be able to pay.

顺便说一下，信用卡的碰一碰支付也是同样的情况。

And that is also the case for credit card tap to pays, by the way.

第三，由于你完全不接触互联网，再加上eCash本身提供的极致隐私保护，你甚至都不需要连接网络，这意味着如果你愿意，隐私保护程度还能再翻一倍——因为你的设备根本不会向任何正在处理这笔支付的服务器注册任何信息。

And third of all, because you don't touch the Internet and, you know, coupled with the incredible privacy that eCash already gives you, and you don't even touch the Internet, that means you have kind of like twice the amount of privacy even if you want, because your device doesn't even register, you know, on any server that is making this payment right now.

Mint唯一看到的是收款方的POS设备完成了一次兑换：eCash进来了，eCash出去了，也就是说，收款方把eCash交给Mint，换回了新的eCash，仅此而已。

The only thing that the Mint sees is that the receiver POS has done a swap, so that eCash came in and eCash went out, kind of like the receiver takes the eCash, swaps it with the Mint for new eCash, that's it.

Mint并不知道是否发生了交易、谁支付了款项，或者付款人的任何其他个人信息。

The Mint doesn't see whether there was a sale, who paid for it, and like any other personal information of the payers.

所以我刚才提到，除了eCash部分，还有Lightning部分。

And so I was saying there is this eCash part, there's also the Lightning part.

对于任何只拥有Lightning钱包的人来说，他们仍然可以在任何Numo终端付款，因为我们自动生成支付账单。

So for anyone with just a Lightning wallet, they can still pay at any Numo terminal because we create invoices automatically.

目前只有Phoenix钱包支持这种功能。

There is also a kind of Phoenix is the only wallet that supports this.

还有一项推动是支持通过闪电网络进行非接触式支付。

There's also a push to support tap to pay with Lightning.

因此，你的终端本质上是通过NFC提供闪电网络发票。

So what your terminal does is basically it it offers the Lightning invoice via NFC.

任何能够读取设备NFC的设备，例如Phoenix钱包，都可以读取这个Vault 11发票，然后通过闪电网络向终端发起支付。

So any device that can read NFC from the device, and that could be a Phoenix wallet for example, can read that Vault 11 invoice and then make a payment over the Internet to the terminal using Lightning.

遗憾的是，到目前为止，我只知道Phoenix真正支持这一功能，但生态系统中显然有更多兴趣。

Unfortunately, so far, I'm only aware of Phoenix really supporting this, and there is definitely more interest in the ecosystem.

这也是我们的目标：提升对Tap2Pay的兴趣，希望更多钱包能跟进并尽快集成Tap2Pay功能，尤其是那些仅支持闪电网络的钱包。

This is also our goal to increase interest in Tap2Pay and hope that more wallets will follow-up and follow soon and integrate Tap2Pay into their wallets as well, especially if it's just Lightning wallets.

显然，我们目前已经有大约八个Cashu钱包原生支持这一功能。

Obviously, we have, I think, eight or so Cashu wallets that support this out of the box right away.

因此，我们希望看到这种支付体验在闪电网络中的普及度进一步提升。

So we hope that we'll see also more penetration in Lightning for this kind of payment experience.

我们还在推动BIP321这一标准的采纳。

And we're also pushing for the adoption of a BIP, that's BIP321.

我认为至少统一二维码是这样的，BIP编号可能需要有人纠正我，但统一二维码或统一支付地址ROA，允许比特币钱包为你提供一个包含链上地址、Lightning地址，以及现在还包括Cashu支付请求的单一二维码，所有内容都打包在一个负载中。

I think at least that's unified QR codes, someone needs to correct me on the BIP number, but unified QR codes or unified payment addresses ROA for a Bitcoin wallet to offer you, for example, if you want to pay to it, an on chain address, a Bold 11 address and also now a Cashu payment request all in a single QR code, all in one payload.

对于二维码来说，这曾经是个问题，因为二维码变得越来越大，导致扫描越来越困难。

And so for QR codes this was kind of a problem because the QR code used to get larger and larger, which makes scanning harder and harder.

但对于NFC来说，这非常理想，因为NFC对负载大小并不太敏感。

But for NFC this is really ideal because for NFC you don't really care about the payload size that much.

它完全可以正常工作，你只需将手机靠近POS设备，它就能接收这个BIP统一二维码负载，然后钱包自身可以决定：我是链上钱包，那就通过链上支付。

It will work, so you just tap your phone to the POS device and it could receive like this BIP unified QR code payload and then the wallet itself could decide, I'm an on chain wallet, so I'll pay on chain.

我是闪电网络钱包，那就用闪电网络支付；我是Cashu钱包，那就用Cashu支付。

I'm a Lightning wallet, so I'll pay with Lightning or I'm a Cashu wallet, so I'll pay with Cashu.

因此，我们正努力提升人们对良好用户体验的期待，并希望其他人也能看到这一点，从而推动Tap to Pay在比特币生态中的更广泛采用。

And so we're trying to kind of raise the bar in the expectation of what good UX should look like and hope that everyone else will also see this and will see more and more adoption of Tap to Pay in Bitcoin.

是的。

Yeah.

我再简单确认一下，为了听众们，确实是BIP321，于2024年11月发布。

And I'll just quickly check just for listeners, it is BIP321, came out in November 2024.

这似乎是马特·科雷洛关于URI方案的内容，它有点像是BIP21的高级版本或更新升级，一些听众可能知道，BIP21历史上也涉及统一的二维码。

Looks like it's by Matt Corello relating to the URI scheme, and it's kind of like an advanced or maybe an update or a kind of a upgrade to BIP21, which some listeners may know historically, which was similarly about unified QR codes.

我们还应该向听众提一下另一件重要的事，卡勒，如果你能解释一下‘以闪电网络地址提款’这个概念，因为我觉得这也很实用。

The other big thing that we should mention for listeners, Calle, if you can explain this idea of order withdrawing to a Lightning address, because I think that's also really handy.

因为人们常有的一个担忧是：看。

Because a common fear people may have is, look.

如果我被这个铸币厂割了怎么办？

What if I get rugged by this mint?

但现在情况会不同，运作方式也会不一样。

Well, now it's gonna be a different context, or it's gonna work in a different way.

你能解释一下在NumoPay中这是如何运作的吗？

Can you explain the rationale on how this works in NumoPay?

是的，当然可以。

Yeah, absolutely.

因此，作为POS设备的Numo POS所收到的eCash会存储在设备本身上。

So the eCash that you receive as a POS device, as a Numo POS, lives on the device itself.

正如我们之前所说，Cashu 是一个托管系统，因此作为 Cashu 的用户，你希望尽量降低对铸币运营商托管风险的暴露。

And as we said before, Cashu is a custodial system, so as a user of Cashu you want to limit your exposure risk to this custodial risk of the mint operator.

显然，这个铸币系统本身可能由餐厅老板自己运营，因此在这种情况下，你并不存在这种信任问题，因为支付基础设施可能由使用 POS 的同一批人来运行。

Obviously, the mint itself could be operated by, let's say, the restaurant owner themselves, so you don't really have this trust issue there because the payment infrastructure itself could be run by the same people that also use POS.

但一般来说，这种情况并不成立。

In general this will not be true.

会有很多人只想使用 POS，而愿意运行基础设施的人会少得多，对吧？

There will be many more people who just want to use the POS and fewer people who will run the infrastructure, right?

因此存在这种风险场景，而且正如我所说，电子现金本身存储在设备上，这意味着尽管你拥有助记词并可以备份所有数据，但你最终还是希望将资金从 POS 提现到某个中心化的地点，比如你经营一家餐厅，需要将所有收款集中到一个大型钱包中，因此你希望管理的 10 个不同 POS 设备都能将资金提现到同一个地址。

So there is this risk scenario and again, as I said, the eCash itself lives on the device, so that also means although you have a seed phrase and you can back up everything, you eventually want to withdraw the funds from the POS to some other centralized place where, for example, you have a restaurant and you have a single big wallet where all the payments should flow in, so you want to handle your 10 different POS devices, they should all withdraw to the same address.

这正是我们的目标。

That's kind of the goal.

为此，我们内置了通过闪电网络地址自动提现的功能，其运作方式非常简单。

So for this we have built in the auto withdrawal with Lightning address, and what this looks like is very simple.

当你设置钱包时，可以进入设置，启用自动提现，然后设置一个金额阈值，例如 50,000 聪，并输入你非托管闪电网络节点或其他支持闪电网络地址的钱包提供的闪电网络地址。

When you set up the wallet, you can go into the settings and you say enable auto withdrawal, and then you can set a threshold, an amount threshold, for example it could be 50,000 satoshis, and enter a Lightning address from your non custodial Lightning nodes or any other wallets that provides you a Lightning address.

有了这个功能，你基本上就拥有了全部工具。现在你可以把POS设备交给你的员工，比如在店里工作的人员，让他们在一天中收集所有销售产生的付款。一旦钱包余额达到你设定的阈值，比如50,000聪，系统就会自动将资金提现到你指定的闪电网络地址，从而将每个设备的风险控制在安全范围内。

And with that you basically have everything, now you can give this POS to your, let's say your workforce and your, you know, people working in your store for example, and they could collect payments for all the things that they sell over the during the day, and as soon as the wallet reaches that threshold that you've set, so the balance of the wallet, the POS reaches let's say 50,000 SATs, it will automatically execute a withdrawal to the lightning thrust that you've set, so that the exposure risk per device can be perfectly controlled and kept in a safe range basically.

这样，你每天可以处理数十万聪的交易，而无需担心单个POS设备丢失、被盗，或者收单方随时关闭服务而卷走资金的风险。

So that way you can make, you know, hundreds of thousands of SATs per day without risking too much to either the individual POS devices being lost or being stolen or something like that, or the mint operator who could rob you anytime by turning off the mint.

是的，这非常令人着迷，看到这些想法如今如此迅速地演进，真的很有意思。

Yeah, it's fascinating, and it's just really interesting to see how quickly these ideas are kind of all evolving now.

如果我回想起早些年，要实现这一点，人们必须使用BTC Pay Server，进行复杂的配置。

Like if I think back to earlier years, in order to do this, people had to use BTC pay server and set it all up that way and have, you know, quite an involved setup.

或者，也许只是由一个人带着一个应用程序来处理。

Or maybe they had just like one guy with an app kind of thing.

但当你去商店时，这个人必须在场，并且懂得如何操作。

But then when you go to the shop, that guy has to be there and know how to use it.

否则，你就无法付款。

Otherwise, you can't pay.

而现在，情况完全不同了，人们可以使用各种不同的应用，资金可以自动提现到商户的闪电网络地址，甚至在他们需要时也能轻松处理。

Whereas now, it's like there are all these ways that that people can just have, like, different apps, and it can just be auto withdrawn, let's say, to the owners, the merchants, Lightning address, or even if he needs it.

假设他是个餐厅老板。

Let's say he's a restaurant owner.

他需要把钱发送到交易所上的闪电网络地址，因为他得卖一些比特币来应对风险。

He needs to send it to his Lightning address that's on an exchange because he has to sell some for fear.

比如，这可以自动通过程序完成。

Like, it can just be kind of automatically programmatically done.

因此，这正推动着各种新应用的出现，显然让人们对比特币点对点使用成为可能。

And so that's like it's just enabling all these new things that allow, obviously, people to use Bitcoin peer to peer.

所以我认为，我们正在见证一个非常有趣且引人入胜的演变过程。

So I think it's a really fascinating and a really, just kind of an interesting evolution that we're seeing.

当然，我仍然是BTCPay的粉丝。

Now, of course, I'm still a fan of BTCPay.

我不是说它已经被取代了，但现在确实有了很多不同的选择，对吧？

I'm not saying it's obviated, but it's just there are lots of different options now, aren't there?

不对。

No.

这最重要，而且我们有多种选择是好事。

That that's that's the most important thing, and it's it's good that we have a diversity of options.

针对不同的技能水平、知识深度以及你对技术的了解程度，总会有一种解决方案。

There will be a solution for every skill level, knowledge level, how deep you are already in the tech, obviously.

但我认为，比特币今天最大的障碍并不是技术本身的存在。

But the biggest blocking factor for Bitcoin today, I think, is not kind of the existence of the tech.

而是用户体验方面，以及说服人们持续使用的问题。

It's more the UX side and kind of convincing people to stay on board.

我自己多次注意到或经历过这种情况：我走进一家商店。

And I've noticed or experienced this multiple times myself that I go into a store.

正如你所说，店里那位比特币爱好者店主几个月前就设置了收款设备，但当其他员工加入，或者今天轮到另一位收银员当班时，他们可能不知道如何使用比特币，因此那天你就无法用比特币付款，只能改天再来。

As you said, there's like there's the Bitcoin Bitcoin enthusiast owner of the store who set up a POS device like months ago, and then as other workers join or, you know, another cashier works at the at the counter today, and they might not know how to use Bitcoin, and so on that day you cannot pay with Bitcoin, but you have to come back.

等店主回来后，你才能用比特币付款。

When the owner is back in the store, then you can pay with Bitcoin.

我以前就多次遇到过 exactly 这种情况。

Like, I've experienced exactly this scenario many times before.

这展示了真正的问题所在。

So this shows you what the real problem is.

并不是比特币每周四就无法使用，而是工作人员自己还没学会如何操作这个设备，尽管这其实很简单，或者有人可以教他们。

It's not that Bitcoin is off on every Thursday so you can't pay with Bitcoin anymore, it's because the workers themselves haven't learned how to use the device, although it could be very easy or someone could show them.

所以我们只是想降低门槛，让比特币对人们来说更实用。

So we just want lower the bar that makes Bitcoin useful for people.

而在法币体系中，你可以看到人们为确保法币使用得尽可能无缝和简单付出了多少努力。

And in fiat, and you can see how much work has gone into making sure that fiat is as seamless and simple as possible.

这就是如今信用卡体验所模仿的模式。

So this is what credit card experiences today mimic.

基本上就是——无需思考。

It's basically, you know, no thinking.

你只需要拿出手机。

You just take out your phone.

在大多数手机上，你现在甚至不需要解锁手机就能支付。

In most phones, you don't even need to unlock your phone anymore to pay.

你只需要把它靠近设备，就完成了。

You just hold it to the device and it's done.

你不需要使用指纹或其他任何东西。

You don't need to use your fingerprint or anything.

对于小额支付，他们设置了阈值，甚至不需要确认任何操作。

They have like thresholds for small payments where you don't even need to confirm anything.

因此，法币的POS市场已经非常成熟，提供了多种选择供人们使用。

So and obviously the POS market for Fiat is well established and has lots of different options for people to use.

而在比特币领域，我们尚未看到在超简单用户体验方面有如此大的推动力。

And in Bitcoin we haven't seen that much of a push in that realm with super simple UX yet.

所以目前大多数解决方案要么要求你理解比特币的工作原理——这对那些并非比特币用户、却需要在店里使用比特币的员工来说是个大问题；要么要求你自行搭建和管理基础设施——这对我来说没问题，但我知道98%的人无法掌握这种知识，因为他们想专注于其他事情。

So most of the solutions either, you know, require you to understand how Bitcoin works, which is a big problem for, you know, all these people who are not Bitcoiners but are supposed to use Bitcoin in the store when they work in there, or set and run and manage your own infrastructure, which is something that I can do, no problem, but I know that 98% of people won't be able to achieve that kind of knowledge because they want to focus on something else.

他们只想经营生意。

They want to run a business.

他们不想操心POS基础设施来完成自己的生意。

They don't want to take care of the POS infrastructure to actually do their business.

我认为，作为比特币的开发者社区，我们需要更加用心地思考我们的用户在哪里，以及我们真正希望谁来使用我们的软件。

I think as a developer community in Bitcoin, need to be much more thoughtful about what, you know, where our users are and who we want to actually use our software.

如果我们只是为彼此、为那些对比特币非常了解的极客们开发软件，那只会限制比特币的发展潜力。

If we just build software for each other, for all the nerds and all the people who are really deep into Bitcoin, that will just limit the way that Bitcoin can grow.

而其他支付渠道，尤其是法币和稳定币，正在大力推动，力求让它们的体验尽可能流畅、直观和简单。

Whereas other payment rails, especially fiat and stablecoins, are really pushing super hard to make their their experience as seamless and intuitive and simple as possible.

人们在这些功能上投入了大量资源，因为它们希望确保能够以一种流畅的方式完成支付。

There has been a massive investment in making these things as slick as possible because, hey, they wanna get they wanna make sure they can take payment in a slick way.

当然，这指的是法币支付渠道。

And of course, it's like the fiat payment rails.

我们现在在很多地方开始看到的现象，尤其是在疫情封锁期之后，当你去餐厅时，需要扫描二维码来查看菜单。

What we're starting to see in a lot of places now and especially kind of post all the lockdown era, we were starting to see when you go to a restaurant, it's you scan the QR to see the menu.

如今，这种情况已经相当普遍了。

And nowadays, it's quite common.

就连我本人，住在迪拜，住在阿联酋，也经常遇到这种情况。

I mean, even for me, I I live in Dubai, I live in The UAE.

我们去餐厅时，经常在付款时，他们会直接说：嘿。

We go to restaurants, oftentimes when you go to pay, they will literally be like, oh, hey.

你扫描桌上的二维码，然后通过它付款。

You scan the on your table and you pay through that.

而且这又是一种预付方式，可能是谷歌支付之类的东西，或者输入你的信用卡信息，但这就是趋势所在。

And again, it's a fee up payment, and it might be like Google Pay or something like this or typing in your your credit card details, but that's that's the direction things are going.

如果我们不能将比特币和闪电网络支付集成到这种流程中，那将是一场极其艰难的 uphill battle。

And so if we can't get Bitcoin and Lightning payments built in to that, it's it's just gonna be a very difficult uphill battle.

是的。

Yeah.

我们越来越难赶上，而这并不是我们希望处于的境地。

It's it's getting harder and harder to catch up, which is not the situation that we wanna be in.

你知道，比特币给了我们一种可能，让我们能够构建一个脱离这种法币体系的支付系统，而那些大公司多年来一直主导着支付领域的推广。

We you know, the Bitcoin gave us the possibility to build payment systems outside of this fiat system, which where you have huge companies pushing for adoption and they have been lagging behind for years before.

如果你回想十年前，当时的互联网支付在法币体系下仍然很糟糕。

If you think back ten years or so, fiat payments still sucked on the Internet.

那时候只有PayPal，而Google Pay、Apple Pay这些都还不成熟，也不够流行，尤其是在你刚刚描述的那种在餐厅使用网页结账的场景下。

There was kind of only PayPal and GooglePay, ApplePay, all those weren't, you know, either not round or not really popular, Especially the situation that you just painted, where you use a web checkout in the restaurant.

尽管你身在实体店，但网页结账本身更高效，因为你不需要起身排队，也不需要服务员专门为你服务。

Although you're physically present, the web checkout itself is more efficient because you don't need to get up, stand in line, a worker doesn't need to take care of you.

你可以在桌边完成所有操作，结账完毕后直接离开。

You do everything on your table and you finish the job on your table, you go out.

这是一种效率的提升。

That is an efficiency gain.

这也是这些技术得以普及的原因：越高效、越简便、实现目标所需的 manual 工作越少，通常就越容易流行并被大力推广。

And that is also why these technologies spread, because the more efficient, the easier, the less manual work is necessary to achieve a goal, that is typically something that gains popularity and is being pushed.

这些公司显然有经济动机推动这些技术，因为它们也能从技术的普及中获利。

These companies obviously have financial incentives to push these technologies because they also make a profit from seeing it being adopted.

这本身没什么问题，只是额外的推动力而已。

There's no issue with that, it's just like an additional incentive.

而在比特币领域，我们的动机主要是：我们从事开源工作，跨不同项目协作，因为我们都有一个共同目标——推动比特币的普及。

Whereas in Bitcoin, our incentive is mostly, you know, we work in open source, we collaborate across different projects because we have all a singular goal, is to push Bitcoin adoption.

因此，这也意味着需要更多的协调与合作，共同朝着同一个方向推进。

And so that also means that it requires a bit more coordination and working together in pushing it into the same direction.

这也是为什么像BIP321这样的BIP会存在，因为我们希望有一个所有人都能采用的统一体验，让我们能够齐头并进。

That is also why BIPs like BIP321 exist, because we want a unified experience that everyone can adopt so we can all march forward together.

有时候这会慢一点，但我相信它更持久。

Sometimes that's a bit slower, but I believe that is longer lasting.

我们拥有更坚实的基础来继续建设。

We have a better foundation to build on.

因为我深知，未来几十年我们将持续工作并改进比特币，所以我很有信心，随着时间推移，比特币体验与法币体验之间的差距会逐渐缩小。

And because I know that we'll be working and improving Bitcoin over decades and decades to come, I'm pretty confident that we will be able to make that gap between Bitcoin experiences and fiat experiences narrower and smaller over time.

所以，如果我要问你，NumoPay未来的方向是什么？

So if I were to think about if I if I were ask you where are you going with NumoPay in the future?

比如，你打算为这个项目开发哪些功能或朝哪个方向发展？

Like, what kinds of features or direction are you going to take that project?

所以它完全是开源且免费的。

So it is fully open source and it's free.

任何人都可以下载、修改并按自己的喜好使用它。

Anyone can download it, modify it, use it as they like.

它基于Cashu协议构建，因此为运营者提供了多种部署和实验的选项。

It is built on top of the Cashu protocol and so it gives you as an operator many different options to actually deploy it and experiment with it.

我们也在开发与BTCPay服务器的集成。

We are working on a BTCPay server integration as well.

因此，我们不仅希望将Cashum作为后端，也希望将BTCPay服务器作为后端。

So we want to be able to not only use a Cashument as a back end, but also a BTC pay server as a back end.

因为我们构建的用户界面和用户体验非常流畅，它对其他比特币项目也很有帮助。

Because the UI and the UX that we've built is super slick, it can be also useful for other Bitcoin projects.

例如，Numo有一个小费功能，顾客可以给工作人员留下小费。

Numo, for example, has a tipping feature where the customer can leave a tip to the worker.

它还有一个购物车功能，可以管理餐厅中的多个桌位，添加商品并稍后结账。

It has a basket feature where you can manage multiple, let's say, tables in a restaurant and then add items and check out later.

还有一个收据功能，可以打印收据提供给顾客。

A receipt feature where you can print out receipts that you can give to your customers.

因此，我们深入思考了许多非常实用的功能，考虑了在实际店铺运营中提供良好体验所必需的要素。

So there's a bunch of really useful features that we've thought hard about and we've considered what is necessary for a good experience in a store when you actually work there.

因此，我们还希望将这些功能提供给其他平台。

And so all of these features, we also want to be able to provide to other platforms.

我们正在开发一个基于比特币的服务器集成，目前已经可以使用。

So we're working on a BTC based server integration that is already working.

它尚未正式发布，但已经是开源的。

It's just not released yet, but it's open source.

如果你去搜索，可以在网上找到它。

You can find it online if you look for it.

我们还在开发一个仪表板，让你可以在店铺里的单台电脑上监控所有Numo终端的活动。

And we also have a dashboard in the works where a singular computer, let's say in the store, you can observe the activity of all the Numo terminals in your store.

假设你给员工配备了五个这样的终端，那么你就可以在一个统一的地方查看所有设备的销售总量、每位员工的收入情况、时间趋势等等。

So let's say you have five of these terminals that you give to your workers, then a single place where you can, there will be a single place where you can see how many items are sold across all the devices, who has made how much money and time series and so on and so forth.

我们正在开发更多分析和数据分析软件，以简化运营并改善与现有比特币钱包的集成。

So working on more analyticals, analytics software to make operations easier and improve integrations with existing Bitcoin wallets.

正如我所说，我们也在推动BIP321的采用，希望在整个生态中实现统一的支付负载和统一的二维码，我只想为我们的更大目标做出贡献，那就是我们的北极星目标：推动比特币作为货币，并促进比特币作为支付系统的普及。

As I said, also we're also pushing the adoption of BIP321, so we want more unified payment payloads, unified QR codes across the space, and I just want to be contributing towards our larger goal and that is our North Star goal is to push Bitcoin as money and as push the adoption of Bitcoin as a payment system.

这对我们来说是最重要的事，也是我们开发Cashu并推出Numo的最根本原因。

That is the most important thing for us and is kind of the highest reason, the biggest reason why we work on Cashu and why we put out Numo.

非常好。

Excellent.

关于Cashu，更广泛地说，能给我们介绍一下当前生态系统的现状吗？

And so with Cashu, just kind of more generally, give us a bit of an overview on where the ecosystem is at nowadays.

据我了解，有很多人在运行底层的Mint服务。

Like, as I understand it, I mean, there's a bunch of people running the underlying Mints.

目前也有多种Cashu钱包。

There are a range of Cashu wallets.

你们正在展示如何构建它，显然通过NumoPay，它可以成为一个商户工具。

You're trying to show ways that it can be built, Obviously, with NumoPay that it can be like a merchant tool.

给我们做个概述吧。

Give us an overview.

现在Cashu生态系统发展到什么程度了？

Where is the Cashu ecosystem at nowadays?

这个项目本身已经存在了大约三年左右。

So the project itself has been around for, I think, around three years now.

在这段时间里，我们看到了惊人的增长。

And in that time, we've seen quite astonishing growth.

我们最初只有很少几个项目。

We started with just a very few projects.

刚开始的时候，只有我和另一位伙伴加入，我们一起开发钱包和软件。

At the beginning, it was just me and another guy who joined and we've been building out wallets and software.

后来它逐渐演变成一个协议，于是我们有意识地简化了所有内容，并以文档形式重新构建了整个规范，确保任何人都可以加入协议并开发自己的软件。

At some point it became a protocol, so we kind of intentionally tared down everything and rebuilt everything as a specification with documents where everything is documented so anyone else can also join the protocol and build their own software.

我们成功实现了这一点。

And we've succeeded with that.

如今，要跟上它的进展已经非常困难了。

Today it's really hard to even keep track of it.

在GitHub上有一个很棒的Cashu仓库，我们正试图收集所有遇到的不同项目，但目前有数十个由不同团队维护和开发的钱包。

There is an awesome Cashu repository on GitHub where we're trying to collect all the different projects that we encounter, but there are dozens of different wallets that are being maintained, built by different projects.

我能找到大约五到一百个正在运行和操作的微型节点，规模从小型个人铸币（如单个家庭使用）到大型受监管公司的铸币系统都有。

And there are, you know, maybe somewhere between fifty and one hundred minuteS that I was able to find that are running and operating from small size to bigger size, from personal mints for a single family to a large mint of a regulated company.

从个人极客和黑客，到真正严肃的企业级部署，整个范围都有人通过运行基础设施赚钱。

So there's the whole bandwidth of individual tinkerers and hackers to actual serious company deployments where people even make money by running infrastructure.

因此，比特币支付系统在各个层面都实现了惊人的普及。

So there's been astonishing adoption across the board for Bitcoin payment systems.

此外，还有一层完全独立的Cashu用户或消费者，他们只关注eCash本身的代币和持票人资产特性。

And then there is kind of a completely separate layer of users or consumers of Cashu, which just basically focuses on their token and bearer asset nature of eCash itself.

这同时也是我们构建协议时的目标之一：展示并让每个人都能轻松使用eCash部分，而无需将其连接到任何货币基础系统。

And that was also one of the goals when we built the protocol, is to show and make it easy and possible for everyone to just use the eCash part without having to hook it up or connect it to a monetary base system.

因此，你可以完全不依赖比特币来使用eCash。

And so you can just use the eCash without Bitcoin.

像Tollgate这样的项目就是一个例子，它们实际出售的不是以聪为单位的eCash代币，而是以兆字节为单位、用于互联网路由器的服务。

And so projects like Tollgate come to mind where they literally sell not Satoshi eCash tokens, but denominated in megabytes for an internet router.

所以这就像一个社区互联网路由器，你可以自己成为互联网服务提供商，向你的邻居出售网络接入服务。

So it's like a community internet router where you can become an ISP yourself and you can sell internet access to your router, to your neighborhood, for example.

因此，他们使用Cashu来协调系统中的支付，或者你可以称之为使用该系统的积分。

And so they use Cashu in order to coordinate the payments in the system, or you could call it credits for using their system.

另一个我想到了的项目是Portal。

Another project that I'm thinking of is Portal, for example.

Portal是一个受比特币启发的新型钱包和身份管理应用，今年他们还与一场比特币大会合作，将门票以Cashu代币的形式出售。

Portal is a new Bitcoin inspired kind of a wallet and identity management app and they're partnering also with a Bitcoin conference in this year, where they are selling the tickets as Cashu tokens.

因此，你将拥有无法双重花费的、保护隐私的比特币大会门票。

So you will have privacy preserving tickets for a conference, for a Bitcoin conference, that cannot be double spent.

你也可以转售这些门票，或者送给别人。

So you can also sell them or give them to someone else.

票务行业的一大问题是双重花费，因为当你在线购买一张票时，比如它只是一个PDF文件，你怎么知道同一张票没有被卖给了另外三个人呢？

A big problem in the ticketing world is double spending, because when you go online and you buy a ticket, which is just a PDF file for example, how do you know that the same ticket hasn't been sold to three other people, right?

因此，没有办法验证这一点。

So there is no way to verify that.

使用 eCash，只需将该代币从一个人转移到另一个人，票务也随之转移。

With eCash it's just a simple transfer of that token from one person to another and then the ticket is transferred.

更棒的是，你拥有完美的隐私性，会议运营方根本不知道谁买了哪张票。

Even the nice part about it is that you have perfect privacy, the operator of that conference doesn't know who bought which ticket.

因此，eCash 在比特币领域得到了广泛采用。

So there's a lot of adoption in Bitcoin.

每个人都在谈论 Cashu。

Everyone is talking about Cashu.

我去参加各种会议，总会有 Cashu 的专题演讲。

I go to conferences, there's always a Cashu talk.

有数十甚至上百人正在研究 CashuMain 协议，或围绕 Cashu 进行开发。

There are dozens and dozens of people working on the CashuMain protocol, probably hundreds of people working around Cashu or with Cashu.

从这个角度看，它已经取得了巨大成功，如今已成为比特币生态系统中不可或缺的一部分——至少这是我所感知到的，也是我在各类会议上看到的活跃景象。

So in that sense it's a great success and a fundamental part now of the Bitcoin ecosystem, at least that's how I perceive it and that's how I see activity in conferences and so on.

此外，还有一种有趣的实验性应用，它直接利用 eCash 本身，试图提升非货币系统的隐私性和其他特性，比如互联网使用、票务系统等等。

And then there is like this interesting experimental adoption that basically just uses the eCash part itself and tries to improve the privacy and properties of other non monetary systems such as internet use, ticketing and so many more.

是的

Yeah.

这很令人着迷，因为我觉得它发展得非常迅速。

It's fascinating because I think it's there's it's it's grown so quickly.

如果好的话。

If okay.

让我们这么说吧。

Let's put it this way.

你认为人们应该在哪些目前尚未使用Cashu系统的场景中使用它，尤其是在网络或企业环境中？

Where do you think people should be using a Cashu system where they are currently not using it, especially in, like, web or corporate, like, environments.

我认为这对听众会很有帮助。

I think that that would be useful for listeners.

Cashu并不是非托管系统的替代品，因为在大多数情况下，你并不持有由Cashu代表的比特币的私钥。

So Cashu is not a replacement for non custodial systems because you you do not hold the keys for the Bitcoin that is denominated with Cashu in most cases.

因此，我们看待Cashu发挥作用的方式是改进现有的托管系统，而这类系统无处不在。

So how we see Cashu play a role is to improve existing custodial systems of which there are tons and tons around.

我们首先希望提升的是，让用户能够自行运行这些系统，而无需依赖第三方运营商公司，比如运行Satoshi钱包或Kraken等交易所，这些平台下你的比特币并非由你自己掌控——这就是Cashu发挥作用的地方。

We want to improve, first of all, the ability to run these systems on yourself, so you don't have to rely on a third party operator company that runs, let's say, know, wallet of Satoshi or something, or an exchange like Kraken or anything where your Bitcoin is not secured by yourself, that's where Cashu comes in.

你可以自己运行铸币节点。

So you can run the mint yourself.

这些系统的所有用户，其隐私性将得到极大增强。

And all the users those systems, their privacy is greatly enhanced.

我认为，目前任何加密货币所能提供的最佳隐私保护，可能就是使用eCash。

I want to say the best possible privacy that you can get with any type of cryptocurrency used today is probably using eCash.

因此，我们对它如此热衷，因为它让你即使在使用托管系统时，也能做到不可审查且无法追踪。

So that's why we are so passionate about it, because it allows you as a user to be uncensorable and untrackable even when you're using a custodial system.

从这个角度看，这是一个巨大的提升。

So in that sense it's a big level up.

在组织场景方面，我们已经看到有人表达了对内部组织资金的需求。

And for the organisational case, we've seen interest from people expressing their needs about internal organisational funds.

比如公司间的跨机构支付。

There's like cross company payments.

如果你是一家跨国公司，比如有人跟我提到过这样一个想法：他们想为自己的跨国组织设立一个铸币系统，因为他们面临一个大问题，那就是如何在内部传递资金并确保所有账目都清晰可查。

If you have a multinational, for example, where there's one project where someone told me about this idea is they want to set up a mint for their multinational organization because they have this big problem of sending funds around internally and making sure that everything is accounted for internally.

对于内部支付来说，这再完美不过了：你可以为你的国际组织设立一个铸币系统，然后以 eCash 的形式在不同分支机构之间转移资金，而无需额外记账，因为 eCash 本身的流动就已经自动完成了记账。

And for internal payments it's perfect because you could set up a mint for your international organization and then send around funds between different branches of that organization, for example, as eCash and you don't need to account for it because the eCash itself is already the flow of eCash itself is basically accounted for.

不存在双重支付的风险。

There is no double spending risk.

只要你收到了资金，你就知道对方已经收到了，你不需要再通过账本之类的方式追踪每一笔支付记录。

As long as you receive the funds, you know that the receiver has them and you don't need to make sure that you keep track of all the payments in a ledger, for example.

另一个引起人们兴趣的用途是组织内部的薪资发放。

Another thing where people were interested in is a payout of salaries within an organization.

你知道你正在支付员工工资，比如说每月支付 100 千单位，这就是你发放的工资总额。

So you know that you're paying your employees, let's say, know, I don't know 100 ks per month or something and that's the total sum of the salaries that you pay out.

而你可能并不想了解他们链上地址或他们的闪电网络节点公钥。

And maybe you don't want to know what their on chain address is and what their node public key is, the Lightning node public key.

如果你想在组织内部保持隐私和匿名性，这同样非常有用：你可以直接用 eCash 支付员工工资，让他们自行提现到自己的闪电网络节点或链上比特币地址，而无需记录谁拥有哪个地址。

So if you want to preserve privacy and anonymity within your organization, it is also useful for that because you could in that case just pay your employees in eCash and let them withdraw it to their Lightning node, to their Bitcoin on chain address without having to keep track of who has which address.

是的

Yeah.

所以值得注意的是，现在确实存在一些场景，可以利用这些技术来增强隐私性；因为即使在所谓的加密世界中，人们有时攻击比特币，说‘比特币不私密’，却忽视了那些已经可以在比特币上使用的隐私技术——比如Payjoin、沉默支付、闪电网络，以及你提到的Cashu。

So it's just interesting to point out that there are these scenarios where it could be used now to provide more privacy because sometimes in, you know, even in quote unquote crypto world, they all sometimes attack Bitcoin and say, oh, Bitcoin's not private, while neglecting some of these privacy techniques that can be used in that already can be used in Bitcoin, obviously, things like Payjoin, silent payments, Lightning, and as you mentioned, Cashu.

因为这些技术结合起来实际上可以提供隐私保护，但当今世界尚未完全准备好采用它们。

Because these all combined can actually provide privacy, but it's just more like the world today hasn't quite set up to use that.

对吧？

Right?

例如，如果交易所开始使用PayJoin，如果更多人使用闪电网络而非默认依赖静态捐赠地址进行链上交易，如果我们开始采用目前已有的最佳实践——如沉默支付、PayJoin、闪电网络、Cashu，或它们的组合，我们的比特币使用实际上就能达到一定的隐私水平。

So for example, if exchanges started to use PayJoin, if more people had, you know, Lightning users instead of defaulting to just doing things on chain with a static donation address, if we started to use like that kind of best the best that's available already today, silent payments, PayJoin, Lightning, Cashu, some combination of these things, we actually would have some level of privacy in our Bitcoin use.

是的。

Yes.

作为比特币的高级用户，你今天已经可以利用你提到的所有工具实现极高的隐私性；但正如我们之前提到的，这些隐私技术的用户体验在普及中起着关键作用。

So as a advanced user of Bitcoin, you can achieve great levels of privacy already today with all the tools that you've mentioned, but here's that is you know, it's related to the point that we were making earlier is the UX of these individual privacy methods really plays an important role in the adoption.

因此，我认为隐私应当成为默认设置，而不应让用户去决定、研究或摸索如何提升自己的隐私保护，才能让所有人都使用它。

So I believe that privacy needs to be a default, and you should not have to decide or research or figure out how to improve your privacy if you want everyone to use it.

所以我们应该致力于开发这样的解决方案，让用户根本无需关心是否使用了隐私保护方法。

So we should be working on solutions where the user even doesn't need to care whether it's a private method or not.

他们应该默认被纳入一个保护隐私的系统中，因此使用隐私保护系统必须像使用其他任何系统一样顺畅，因为大多数用户根本不愿花这么多精力去跨越这道门槛。

They should be just basically thrown into a privacy preserving system by default and that's why also using privacy preserving systems must be as smooth as using any other system out there because it just requires too much effort for most users to even climb over that hill.

而且，并不是每个人都有必要做到完全隐私，因为大多数人甚至不了解其中的风险。

And, you know, it's not in everyone's interest to be perfectly private, because most people don't even know what the risks are.

那他们为什么要关心隐私呢？

So why should they care about being private?

当你和普通人讨论这个问题时，你就会听到这些说法。

And that's what you will hear when you have these conversations with normies.

他们会说：我没什么好隐藏的。

They will say, like, I have nothing to hide.

这是大多数人最常说的话。

That's the most common thing that most people say.

显而易见，当你意识到需要隐私的时候，往往已经太晚了。

Obviously, you don't have anything to hide until it's too late.

所以，另一部分是，使用隐私保护系统的人越多，对其他人就越有利，因为隐私依赖于人数。

So we and the other part is, like, the more people use privacy preserving systems, the better for everyone else, because privacy lives off numbers.

加入匿名集合的人越多，该匿名集合内的每个人就越受益。

The more people are part of an anonymity set, the better for everyone inside that anonymity set.

这就是为什么用户体验如此根本重要。

That is why UX is so fundamentally important.

它几乎和解决该问题的实际技术方案一样重要，甚至可能更重要，因为如果太难用，就只会被极少数人采用。

It is almost as important or maybe even more important than the actual technical solution to the problem itself, because if it's too hard, then it will only reach a very limited number of people.

而对于隐私来说，这是一场根本性的失败。

And for privacy, that is a fundamental lose.

对于隐私，我们从根本上希望每个人都能使用它。

For privacy we fundamentally want everyone to use it.

因此，我们必须更加关注这些权衡，以及那些目标与你完全不同的普通人该如何使用这些技术。

So we just have to be a lot more cognizant about these trade offs and how real people with completely different goals than you should be using these technologies as well.

正如我之前所说，店主可能并不关心隐私，但他们关心自己的销售额，对吧？

As I said before, the shop owner probably doesn't care about privacy but cares about their sales, right?

而这正是他们应该关心的。

And that is what they should care about.

但我们可以通过提供内置强大隐私保护的解决方案，让他们无需做出这种认知上的决策。

But we can give them solutions that have incredible privacy built in even without having to make that cognitive decision themselves.

另一个我深知在当今与人工智能、氛围编程等密切相关的话题。

The other topic that I know is obviously very relevant nowadays with AI, vibe coding, and so on.

我知道你正在参与多个不同的项目，并且你也大量使用这些人工智能工具来提升你的生产力。

I know you're working on a bunch of different projects, and I know you are also using a lot of this AI tooling to amplify your productivity.

那么，你能分享一下你对使用人工智能、氛围编程这些工具来提高效率的看法吗？你目前处于什么阶段？

So can you give us some thoughts where are you at on the use of AI, vibe coding, these tools to be more productive?

是的。

Yeah.

我希望现在可能已经没有开发者还没有意识到，事情正在发生根本性的变化，尤其是对于开发者而言。

So I I I hope that there is probably no developer out there anymore who hasn't already, you know, figured that that things are fundamentally changing and and especially for developers.

在过去一两年内，一切都已彻底改变。

Everything has changed in the last year or two maximum.

不过，你知道，人工智能的发展和人工智能模型的演进其实是一个更漫长的故事。

Although, you know, the development of AI and the evolution of AI models has been a much longer story.

真正渗透到实际生产领域，可能才始于一两年前。

The penetration into the actual productive world has maybe started to materialize in one or two years ago.

而在过去六个月里，它明显加速了，如今每个人都意识到，软件开发再也不会回到从前的样子。

And it seems like in the last six months it is really picking up and at this point everyone is understanding that software development will never go back to what it was before.

所以我谈论的是AI辅助编程、智能代理编程或氛围编程——在这种模式下，你不再手动编写大部分代码，而是让AI代理来编写代码。

And so I'm talking about AI assisted coding or agentic coding or vibe coding, where you instead of writing most of your code manually, you let an AI agent to write the code.

作为软件开发者，你只需向机器描述你的意图或想要达成的目标，并以一种你期望机器能最好理解的方式进行表达。

And what you do as a software developer is you describe your intent or the goal that you want to reach to the machine, and we do that in a way that you expect the machine to understand you in the best way.

然后机器执行，你审查代码，或者接受、或不接受机器所生成的内容。

And then the machine executes and you review the code or you accept accept whatever the machine does or not.

因此，我们编写软件的方式和流程已经发生了根本性变化，随之而来的是，一个有动力的个体在极短时间内所能产出的效率和成果提升了数倍。

And so the flow or the method of how we are writing software has fundamentally changed and and with that, the productivity and the output that a single motivated person can produce has increased by many folds and within a very short period of time.

就我个人而言，我从未想过有生之年能亲眼见证这一切。尽管我长期以来一直密切关注人工智能的发展，亲眼目睹了每一个模型的演进，甚至早在GPT出现之前，人们就已经展示出这些模型能很好地生成文本，但当时并不清楚它们是否也能写出高质量的代码。

Personally, I would have never thought that I would ever witness this in the course of my lifetime, because although I've been following AI developments for a very long time very closely and seeing this happen in real time with every single model along the way and even, you know, before GPT and everything was around where people have been already demonstrating that these models can produce text really well, it wasn't clear really that they will also be able to produce really good code.

就连我，自认为对这个领域了解很深的人，一年前也没想到，我们会这么快就到达这样一个阶段——你几乎再也不用怎么看代码了。

And even I, so deep, I would consider myself so deep into the space, didn't expect a year ago that, we will come to a point that fast, that quickly where you don't even really have to look at the code that much anymore.

作为专业开发者，你大部分时候产生的代码质量都不会比机器本身更好。

And you as a professional developer will most of the time not be able to produce better codes than the machine itself.

所以，一年前我和开发者们的对话常常是这样的：嘿，你用这些工具了吗？如果不使用，为什么？

So, like one year ago my conversations with developers were often along the lines of, you know, hey are you using these tools and if you don't do, why not?

我得到的大多数回答是，这些代理还不够好，会犯错，达不到我的期望，所以我才不用它们；但就在短短一年内，这种情况彻底改变了。

And the answers that I would get most of the times were that these agents are still too bad, They make mistakes, they're not good enough for my expectation and that's why I'm not using them and within a single year that has completely changed.

当然，仍然有一些人极其出色，AI代理目前还无法与他们匹敌。

Are still people who are incredibly good at what they're doing and AI agents will not be able to match them yet.

显然，它们很快就能达到同等水平，因为这正是我们前进的唯一方向。

Obviously, they will be able to match them soon because that's the only direction that we're moving towards.

但对于大多数开发者来说，可能超过95%的开发者，如今AI代理生成的代码已经比他们更好，而且不仅更好，还快了整整一百倍。

But for most developers, and it's probably like above 95% of developers, AI agents today produce already better code than them, and they're not only producing better code, but they're also producing it a 100 times faster than any developer can do.

所以，如果你是一名开发者，那么如果你还没采用这些工具，现在几乎已经算晚了——但你仍然有机会挽救自己，因为正确使用这些工具所带来的效率提升，简直令人难以置信。

So if you're a developer, then it's almost already, you know, you're already too late if you haven't adopted this but you still have a chance, you still have a chance to save yourself because the output efficiency that you gain from using these tools correctly is just mind blowing.

这很难与其他任何事物相比，因为我真的找不到任何可以类比的东西。

And it's hard to compare it to anything else because I really can't compare it to anything else.

也许就像马车和汽车之间的区别，但就连那个也达不到这么大的飞跃。

Maybe, you know, the horse buggy against the car even, but not even that makes, you know, that much of a jump.

就连那个也没有达到十到二十倍的提升。

Not even that was like a 10 to 20 x improvement.

基本上就像是走路和开车之间的差别。

Basically like the difference between walking and driving.

是的，大概是这样，但可能就是如此。

It's yes, probably, but it's probably that.

但即使走路，你也能到达一些开车去不了的地方。

But, you know, there's even with walking you can get to places where you cannot go with driving.

你只是会慢一些，但终究能到达。

You'll just be slower, but you will get there.

借助AI工具和代理，你能到达作为个人永远无法抵达的地方。

With AI tooling and agents, you can get to places where you will never be able to go as a person.

对的

Right,

因为你也可以学习东西。

because you can learn things as well.

你可以，它知道，你不知道的那些东西

You can It knows Yeah, the things that you don't

所以对于有兴趣的听众，也许是开发者或构建者本身，你有什么建议，关于如何最好地利用这种AI或AI工具吗？

so can you for listeners who are interested, maybe the developers or builders themselves, do you have any tips on the best ways to leverage this AI or leverage AI tools?

你正在使用哪些工具？

What tools are you using?

对于想用AI构建比特币相关项目的人，你有什么建议吗？

Any tips for listeners who wanna build Bitcoin stuff with AI?

是的

Yeah.

所以，我现在说的任何话，两个月后都会过时，因此我不会给你具体的建议，或者我可以告诉你我今天的流程是什么，但我使用所有模型。

So whatever I say right now will be obsolete in two months, so I won't give you specific tips or maybe I can tell you what my pipeline is today, but I use all the models.