PLAN B 卢加诺播客 - 第二天与Jack Mallers和Chris Pavlovski的对话 | SLP698

我认为这个领域在即将到来的创新数量上是常青的。比如，我们从未推出过增长如此迅猛且极具冲击力的产品。这充分说明了人们对‘不卖出比特币也能生活’的需求有多大。你本不该为清算问题失眠，也不该被迫接受12个月的期限。

I think the space is evergreen in the amount of innovation that there is to come. Like, we have never launched a product that's growing this fast that strikes. So it it tells you the amount of demand that people have for help me live on my Bitcoin without selling it. And you shouldn't have to lose sleep over liquidation. You shouldn't have to be forced to use a twelve month term.

你应该能够获得信用额度。

You should be able to get a line of credit.

欢迎回到Plan B播客，这里是卢加诺的现场直播。我是客座主持人Stefan Lovera。今天与我同台的是一位长期比特币倡导者，他在社区和商业领域都做出了卓越贡献——Strike公司的CEO兼联合创始人Jack Mallers，欢迎你。

Welcome back to the plan b podcast coming to you live from Lugano. I'm your guest host, Stefan Lovera. Joining me today is a long time Bitcoin advocate, really doing a lot of great work in the community and, you know, in business. He is the CEO and cofounder of Strike. Welcome, Jack Mallers.

最近怎么样，兄弟？你们好吗？

What's going on, man? How are you guys?

是的。我认为你做得非常出色，让我们简单聊聊。你是在2019年还是2020年创立Strike的来着？

Yes. I think you're doing a great job out there, and let's let's hear a little bit. You know, now you started Strike, was it 2019? 2020. Yeah.

我的意思是，你在这个领域深耕已久。显然产品经历了多次迭代。现在最新的进展应该是借贷业务方面。给我们简单更新下现状吧。

So I mean, you've been around. Obviously, it's gone through various iterations. Yeah. I think probably the latest thing now is the lending side of it. But, give us, you know, just a bit of an update.

Strike目前有什么最新动态？进展如何？

What is the latest on Strike? What's happening?

关于Strike，我们最初是一家专注于闪电网络的公司。它诞生于区块大小之争——说来好笑，现在社区内部又出现了类似的纷争。但我们正是从这场争论中起步，想证明比特币确实具有实用价值。后来随着FTX暴雷、币安陷入法律纠纷，加上2022年熊市，很多比特币持有者找到我们说：'我们真正需要的是你们提供的比特币金融服务，我们信任你们。'

So Strike, we started as a Lightning Network company. It was born out of the block size wars, which hilariously, there's some infighting in the community now. But it was born out of the block size wars, and we wanted to prove that Bitcoin had some utility value. Fast forward to FTX blows up, Binance gets in some legal trouble, and that bear market in 2022, a lot of Bitcoiners came to us and said, we actually want Bitcoin financial services from you guys. We trust you.

你们开发的软件可靠，愿景、使命和专注点都正确。我们还拥有合规牌照，具备成为比特币用户获取比特币的一站式平台的所有条件——现在他们还能用比特币作为抵押进行借贷。

You build reliable software. You have the right vision and mission and focus. We also had the right licenses. We had everything we needed to be the place that Bitcoiners could acquire Bitcoin from. Now borrow against their Bitcoin from.

当用户需要钱包时，我们提供比特币托管服务。因此我们从专注支付转型为全球比特币金融服务公司。如今我们已是全球最大的比特币经纪商之一，现阶段可能还是最大的零售贷款方（非批发业务，我认为泰达币是最大的批发贷款方），直接面向普通个人用户提供比特币抵押贷款。

Custody Bitcoin if they needed a wallet. And so we pivoted from just focusing on payments to being a global Bitcoin financial services firm. And so today, we're one of the biggest global Bitcoin brokerages in the world, and we might be at this point the largest retail lender. So not wholesale. I think Tether's the largest wholesale lender, but distributing bitcoin backed loans directly to the plebs, the individuals.

产品上线六个月后，我们可能成为全球最大。该产品已在欧洲、美国、澳大利亚上线，还覆盖了拉丁美洲六个国家。我们已成为比特币用户的万能商店，无论是想获取比特币，还是抵押借贷来改善生活，我们都能提供相应的金融服务。

In six months of the product live, we might be the biggest globally. We offer that product in here in Europe, in The United States, in Australia, and there's six countries in Latin America that we offer it as well. So we've become the one stop shop for the Bitcoiner. And we serve someone that wants to make Bitcoin money and and whether that's acquiring it or borrowing against it to finance part of their life, like, serve them financially.

明白了。请简单介绍一下贷款产品，比如利率水平、条款设置等基本信息。

Got it. So talk me through the lending product, just kind of the high level, like what's the interest rate, what are the terms you offer, like, just some of the basic kind of overview of the lending product.

好的。这款贷款产品让我非常兴奋——虽然我知道这是个敏感话题。我最爱说的话是：'不想用就别用，我又没拿枪指着你脑袋。'但这是我十三年来在比特币领域见过首个真正有市场需求的产品（我2020年创立Strike，但接触比特币已十三年）。

Yeah. So I'm very excited about the lending product and I know it can be a hot topic. My favorite thing to say is if you don't wanna use it, don't use it. I'm not putting a fucking gun to your head. But it's the first financial service in Bitcoin that I've seen, and I've been building in this space a long time.

它首次实现了产品与市场的完美契合。比特币用户不再需要把资产冷藏在硬件钱包里，而是能通过这项服务改变生活——他们可以将年化增长50%-60%的资产变现，用于支付子女大学学费、紧急手术或购置新房。我们有位客户原本带着两个孩子挤在小公寓，通过比特币抵押贷款终于买下带院子的房子，让孩子们有了玩耍空间。

I started Strike in 2020, but I've been in Bitcoin for thirteen years. It's the first one that we've seen have real product market fit. Like, it's actually enabling a Bitcoiner to not just keep it under their mattress in a cold card, but it's changing their life. They're able to take this asset that's 50%, 60% CAGR and then turn that into a university degree for their kid or an emergency surgery for a medical issue or a new home. We had a customer that had two kids in tiny little apartment and they wanted a yard And they were able to borrow against the Bitcoin and finance a home so the kids could play.

这是我们首次见证比特币在日常生活中具有实用价值。

And it's the first time we've seen Bitcoin have utility value in an everyday life.

因此我对此非常兴奋。初始产品及当前上线的是一款12个月期限的贷款产品。年利率最低约9%，具体取决于借款金额。我们实行阶梯利率——若借1USDT，利率接近13%。

And so I'm very excited about it. The initial product and the one that's live today, it's a twelve month duration loan. The term start as low as around 9% APR, and it depends how much you borrow from us. So we tier the rates. If you're borrowing one USDT, it's closer to 13 percent.

但若借款金额较大，利率会降低。这款产品虽好，但与未来可能性相比只能说中规中矩。因为12个月并非理想期限。而且从用户反馈看，产品上线时人人都在借款。我们收到最多的请求是'我想再借第二笔'。

But if you have a more material loan, the rate comes down. And this product, I think it's great, but compared to what's possible, I think it's okay. Because twelve month isn't the dream duration. And also what we're seeing from customers, a customer when we launch the product, everyone takes out a loan. The number one request we got is I want two loans.

你会觉得这很奇怪：'你不是已经借过一笔了吗？'对方却说：'没错，但第一笔是付牙医账单，现在我想再借一笔支付下月开支'。接着他们会要第三笔、第四笔、第五笔、第六笔...

So you say, that's weird. You already took out a loan. Yeah. But I took out this one for my dentist bill, and now I want one for my next months of payments. And then they want three loans, four loans, five loans, six loans.

这现象很有趣，你本以为人们借款只是为了加仓比特币。其实不然。只有在市场高峰时，用借款购买比特币的比例才占50%。实际上人们用这些钱创业、购房，或只是支付下月信用卡账单。我们现在正在开发的新产品...其实我原本只是在Noster上随口一提，结果消息传开了。

And it's fascinating because you'd think, oh, people are just levering to buy more Bitcoin. No. Only at peak, buying Bitcoin with borrowed capital is about 50%. People are actually going out and doing things, starting businesses, buying homes, or just financing their credit card payments next month. And so now what we're we're building I I was shitposting on Noster, and it kinda got out.

所以现在得认真对待了。我们正在打造基于比特币的信用额度服务。无论是闪电网络支付还是超市刷卡消费，都不必再申请12个月贷款锁定资金。你可以像使用担保信用卡那样直接消费比特币。我们正全力优化产品，目标是让人们既能依靠比特币生活，又不必卖出比特币触发税务事件，同时能根据个人风险承受能力理性决策。

So now I have to own it a little bit. But we're building, like, a line of credit on your Bitcoin. So if you wanna make a lightning payment, if you wanna swipe a card at the grocery store, you don't have to take out a twelve month duration loan and park capital for a year. You can just spend against your Bitcoin as like as if it's a secured credit card. And so the we're really evolving the product to how can you live on Bitcoin without having to sell it, spend it, incur a taxable event in a way that you can responsibly take on whatever risk is appropriate to you.

我们不想强迫用户接受12个月期限。这才是产品真正的进化方向——作为比特币信徒，我渴望实现'超比特币化'的生活。我理想中的世界不需要持有任何法币，事实上我现在就不持有。我对美元并不看好，因此设计了一套能让我舒适且负责任地完全依靠比特币生活的方案。

We don't wanna force this twelve month term onto people. And so that's really the evolution of the product, and it's the best because, you know, as a Bitcoiner, I want people to hyper Bitcoin I I I wanna live in a world like I don't own any fiat, and I don't plan to. It's I'm not bullish the dollar. And so I I've engineered a way where I can comfortably and responsibly live on Bitcoin.

太棒了。所以我认为这些年来观念已经转变了，哦抱歉。还有一件事。你能为我们澄清一下你们通常操作的LTV（贷款价值比）水平是怎样的吗？

Fantastic. And so And I think the shift the thinking has shifted over the years and, oh, sorry. One other thing. What else can you clarify for us what are the LTV kind of levels that you normally operate

我们最初设定的是50%的LTV。和任何优秀的公司一样，如果你需要定制服务，直接联系我。你可以联系我们。我们有一个团队，如果有特殊情况我们还有专门的私人团队。

We we start at 50% LTV. And like any good company, if you need anything custom, you just call me. You reach out to us. We have a team. We have a private team if there's a special instance.

但事实上，作为一家比特币公司，我们最大的优势是不碰垃圾币。我们不为投机人群提供服务。我们的客户平均贷款起始LTV实际上是40%。

But actually what's great about, again, us being a Bitcoin company, we do not work on shit coins. We do not tender and care to the speculative crowd. Our customers actually average their loans starting at 40% LTV.

所以这相当于要求更多一点的超额抵押。

So again over collateralizing a little bit more.

他们确实在做超额抵押。我们起始是50%。如果客户有特殊需求可以联系我们，但这从来不是问题，因为比特币玩家不是赌徒。

They're over collateralizing. So we start at 50. If a customer needs anything special, they reach out to us, but it hasn't it hasn't been an issue because Bitcoiners aren't degenerates.

对。那么举个简单的例子，为了方便计算，假设1个比特币价值10万美元，你可以抵押1个BTC借出5万美元。如果想更保险些，可能抵押1个BTC只借4万美元。

Yeah. And then, okay. So just kind of indicative example, like, with just for to make the numbers easy, let's say one Bitcoin is a 100,000, you can put up 1 BTC as collateral and you can borrow $50,000. Yep. But if you want to be more safe about it, maybe you put up 1 BTC and only borrow borrow $40,000.

没错。这样就是40%的LTV。正确。那么你能解释一下清算线之类的规则吗？好让大家有个概念。

Yep. And that would be a 40% LTV. Correct. And so can you explain for us just like what are the liquidation levels and things like that just so people are aware?

是的，这里有个区别。有保证金追缴和强制平仓两种情况。保证金追缴时，我们会联系你——我们有你的电话号码，会发送邮件和推送通知，告诉你：嘿，我们希望你能改善账户状况。现在情况有点危险了。

Yeah. So there's a difference. There's margin call and liquidation. Margin call, we'll reach out to you and we have your phone number, we'll send you emails and push notifications and say, hey, we want you to get in better standing. It's getting a little too close.

当保证金比例降到75%到85%左右时就会触发强制平仓。好吧。嗯，对，确实如此。

And then that's around 75%, 85% is liquidation. Okay. And yeah. Yeah. Fair enough.

我们希望确保你的保证金维持在50%到60%之间。当然你可以关闭这些通知，但我们的职责不是没收你的比特币。作为比特币持有者，我也不想这么做。显然我必须负责任地处理，否则没人会信任这个产品。但我们尽可能保持充分沟通——实际上我们正在开发的新功能预计本季度就会上线。

We wanna make sure that you're in this 50 to 60%. And you know, you can turn off these notifications, but our job is not to take your Bitcoin. And as a Bitcoiner, I don't wanna do that. I obviously have to responsibly do that or else no one would trust using the product, but we try and be as communicative as we can. We actually are, this will hopefully come out this quarter.

这是我第一次公开宣布这件事，我确实...

This is the first time I'm announcing, this, I'm really

正在爆料呢，继续说吧。

running Scoop, there we go.

我真是滔滔不绝啊。我们正在开发一个完全没有强制平仓机制的产品。

Really running my mouth here. We're working on a product where, there is no liquidation at all.

太棒了。没错，因为这是...

Fantastic. Yes. Because it's one

最大的诉求之一就是，我不希望客户需要为财务计算而倍感压力、失眠或过度思考。比特币的波动性对我们所有人来说都是一份礼物，而不应成为客户的负担。

of the biggest requests is people it's I don't want customers having to stress, lose sleep, or think too hard about finance calculations. It's Bitcoin's volatility is a gift to all of us, and it shouldn't be a stress to our customers.

所以

So

你们如何实现无清算产品？是通过高利率补偿吗，还是其他方式？

how do you achieve a no liquidation product? Is it like a high interest rate to compensate, or what is it?

这会是个更昂贵的产品。明白了。我...我想尽可能降低成本，所以具体收费还不确定。但关键在于，在Strike我们本就是盈利企业。我们的资产负债表上已有超过1500枚比特币，对于一家五年前起步的初创公司来说，这成绩相当不错。

It'll be a more expensive product. Gotcha. I I don't I I wanna make it as cheap as I possibly can, so I don't know exactly what we'll charge. But the point is, you know, at Strike, we were a very profitable business. We already own over 1,500 Bitcoin on our balance sheet, which for a startup that started, you know, five years ago, it's not bad.

我对管理团队和产品团队强调的观点是：我很乐意长期持有比特币。在违约情况下，我会选择保留资产负债表上的比特币，因为我知道它会升值。如果你采用定投策略，在任何四年周期里，最差表现也有110%涨幅。我不会离开这个领域。所以我说，让我们打造一款能让客户更安心的产品。

And the the point I made to my executive team and my product team is I'm happy to belong the Bitcoin. Like, in a default scenario, I'll take the Bitcoin on our balance sheet because I know it's going up. If you take buying Bitcoin, DCA ing Bitcoin over any four year cycle, the worst performance is a 110%. And I'm not going anywhere. And so I said, you know, let let's create a product where the customer can feel more comfortable.

显然这款产品会有溢价，毕竟风险由我们承担而非客户。我们可以通过增加储备来兜底——比如在现有1500多枚比特币基础上再追加。我们正在朝这个方向努力，争取在今年内推出。

Now, obviously, that product's a premium to where if they own the risk themselves. And then, you know, we can find a way to backstop it by just adding all instead of 15 whatever Bitcoin we 1,500 something. We 1,500 plus one. And and so we're working on that and trying to find a way to achieve that. But we think we can launch it before the year's over.

是的，这想法很棒。正如你所说，很多人对长期贷款和无清算模式感兴趣。他们可能愿意为此支付更高费用，觉得物有所值。

Yeah, think that'll be really cool because a lot of people are interested, as you said, in the longer term loan and a no liquidation style. And maybe they would pay more for that. Maybe that's worth it for them.

我认为理想状态是获得信用额度。比如你想买房，可能需要50万欧元的贷款。但如果只是想支付信用卡账单，或是外出用餐，你只需要在比特币基础上进行小额消费，等工资到账后再还清。对吧？就像任何消费信贷一样。

And I think the dream is a line of credit. Like, if if you wanna buy a house, you're gonna want, you know, whatever, $500,000 euro loan. But if you want to just cover your credit card payments, if you want to just go out to dinner, you just want incremental spending on top of the Bitcoin and then your paycheck comes in and you pay it off. Right? Just like any like consumer line of credit.

我觉得这就是理想状态。人们可以按自己的意愿承担风险。最后我想说，有时人们会说，假设年利率是10%，他们会觉得这太贵了，因为房贷利率才4%-6%。问题是房地产年均复合增长率平均只有2%-3%。

I I think that's the dream. And then people can appropriate their risk how they how they want. And the last thing I'll say is, you know, sometimes people say, well, let's say you're at a 10%, annual APR. And they say, well that's really expensive because mortgage rates are 6%, 4%. The problem is real estate compounds annually at around two to 3% on average.

所以房地产其实是存储财富的糟糕工具。比特币的年复合增长率高达50%-60%。显然如果我能降低利率，我会这么做。问题在于很难筹集资金放贷给客户。人们真正应该衡量的是抵押资产的年复合增长率与贷款利率的对比。

So it's a really shitty instrument to store your wealth. Bitcoin's compounding at 50 to 60%. And so obviously, if I can bring the rates down, I will. The problem is it's hard for me to get the capital to then loan on to customers. But what people should be measuring is what's the compound annual growth rate of the asset they're borrowing against, of their collateral versus the rate.

如果你持有的资产年增长50%-60%，10%的利率简直像白捡。对吧？我自己就是产品的重度用户，整天都在这么做，因为利差实在太大了。如果你的房贷利率是6%而房地产年增长只有3%，虽然6%比10%低，但这笔交易其实很糟糕——在犯罪率高、政府决策愚蠢的过度拥挤城市里买公寓，连通胀都跑不赢。

So if you if you have an asset that's growing 50 to 60%, 10% is a steal. Right? I'm a huge customer of my own product. I do it all day because that delta is so big. If your mortgage rate is 6% and real estate's compounding at 3%, I know the six percent's lower than 10, but it's a really shitty deal because you're not outperforming inflation by owning some condo in an overpopulated city with crime and all sorts of stupid fucking broke government decisions.

对吧？

Right?

是的。我认为另一个潜在因素是很多人低估了通胀水平。他们告诉你CPI可能只有3%，但实际上基础货币每年增长9%-11%。如果基础货币年增长10%而你只需支付10%利息，从借款方角度看其实是笔不错的交易。

Yeah. And I think the other kind of underlying factor is a lot of people underestimate what inflation is. Right? Because they'll tell you CPI is whatever, 3%, but actually the base money is growing at whatever nine, ten, 11% per year. So if base money is growing at like whatever 10% a year and you're only paying 10% for the interest, it's actually a pretty good deal for you on the borrowing side.

当然前提是你保持谨慎，做正确的事，不过度加杠杆等等。

Again, as long as you are conservative and, you know, doing the right things and not over over over levering and things like this.

是的。Strike，你知道，显然我们仍然是一个闪电钱包，而且可能是全球最受欢迎的钱包之一。如果人们想使用比特币消费、扫描二维码或去比特币海滩，这绝对是产品的一部分。但现在我们还推出了另一项功能，更支持我们认为正在上演的格雷欣法则——我们仍生活在一个消费品以欧元或美元计价的世界里，日常生活仍需要信用卡或借记卡。

Yeah. And and Strike, you know, obviously, we're still a lightning wallet and and probably one of the most popular in the world. And if people want to spend Bitcoin and scan QR codes and go to bitcoin beach, that's absolutely part of the product. But now we also have this other one where we're more supportive of what we think is like Gresham's law playing out, where we still live in a world where your consumer goods are denominated in the euro or the dollar. You still need a credit card or a debit card to live your everyday life.

我们只是支持人们用比特币在生活中自我赋权的不同方式。

And we're just supporting different ways for people to empower themselves with Bitcoin in their life.

那么让我们来谈谈这些年来的一个变化吧。你我涉足比特币领域都有段时间了，见证过几个周期。当然，最近大家思考的焦点都集中在上个周期——BlockFi、Celsius、FTX和Genesis这些事件，对吧？

So let's get into one thing that's I guess shifted over the years now. You and I have been around in Bitcoin for a little while. We've seen a few cycles. Of course, everyone's thinking like in the recent like the cycle before, was like all the BlockFi, Celsius, FTX, and Genesis, and all this stuff. Right?

现在回想起来，这大概是五年前的事了。当时并非所有人都在场，但记得三月那场疫情引发的暴跌吗？那时比特币从1万美元左右跌到了三四千美元。

And probably also now this is about five years ago. Right? So not everyone was kind of here at that time, but there was the big COVID crash in, like, March. Right? At that time, Bitcoin went from, like, 10 k down to maybe 3 or 4,000.

确实，那是个极其极端的场景，可能让很多人对这类借贷和抵押产品产生了恐惧，因为价格暴跌几乎是一夜之间发生的。我敢肯定你也知道，当时有些比特币玩家不得不紧急追加抵押品，否则就要面临清算。所以我认为，随着时间的推移，人们对债务的认知已经转变，因为大家意识到通胀加剧，这种做法变得合理。

Yeah. And this now admittedly, an extreme extreme scenario that maybe caused a lot of people to have a fear of these kinds of lending and collateralizing products because of that such a dramatic drop, and I think it happened over like overnight. You know what I mean? So in that scenario, you know, I know and I'm probably sure you know, there were, like, Bitcoiners we know who were, like, running to quickly load more collateral because otherwise they were gonna get liquidated. And so now I guess we've we've seen a shift over time in the, I guess, the mindset around debt because people understand there's so much more inflation, and so it makes sense.

另一个观点是比特币的波动性实际上正随时间递减。就像收益递减或幂律法则那样？按历史数据可能有60%甚至更高波动，但未来可能会降至40%到25%左右。

And maybe the other argument is actually Bitcoin is becoming less volatile over time. Right? Like, maybe it's like a diminishing returns or like a power law kind of idea. So maybe, as you said, historically, it's like kind of 60% or even higher. And maybe going forward, it's gonna be sort of somewhere between 40% down to like kind of 25% or so.

那么你认为这是否也是现在抵押类比特币产品重获关注的原因？毕竟相比早些年，波动性已经有所降低。

And so do you think that's also what's driving, some of this interest now in collateralized Bitcoin products? Because it's like the volatility has come down a bit from earlier earlier years.

也许吧。我认为更主要是两个原因。对我们来说，比如谁会在摩根大通用他们的贝莱德ETF借款？这大概和我服务的客户群体不同吧？

Maybe. I I think more so it's primarily two reasons. And this is for us. Like, who's borrowing against their BlackRock ETF at JP Morgan? Is it probably a different customer than who I serve?

但对我们而言，首先是资产类别正在成熟。你可以说，是的，这等同于波动性在降低。两者可能是一回事。但我更倾向于描述为：人们对比特币的理解比五年前深刻多了。他们对货币概念的理解也更好了。像萨菲尔的比特币标准理论在当时并没有得到充分传播。

But for us, it's it's one, the asset class is maturing. And you could say, yes, that's the same thing as saying the volatility is lessening. They might be one in the same. But I would describe it more as people understand Bitcoin much better than they did five years They understand the concept of money better. Things like Safedin's Bitcoin standard wasn't properly propagated back in those times.

对吧？所以我要说这个资产类别已经成熟了。行业成熟了。在座的各位，我们对比特币本质及其应用的理解都大幅提升了。另一个原因自然是升值。

Right? And and so I would say the the asset class has matured. The industry has matured. All of you in the audience, like, we've greatly matured in what Bitcoin is and how we can use it. The other is naturally the appreciation.

要知道，比特币持有者作为一个资产类别群体非常强大，因为我们积累了巨额财富。当我们与客户交谈时，他们说大多数客户50%以上的财富都在比特币里。很多客户90%以上的财富都是比特币。这些客户很多是在十年前、五年前买入比特币，从而获得了巨额财富。

You know, Bitcoiners as an asset class group, we're very powerful because we've accumulated a lot of wealth. Right? Like, when we talk to our customers, they say, a majority of our customers are over 50% of my wealth is in Bitcoin. A lot of our customers is over 90% of my wealth is in Bitcoin. And a lot of these customers also bought Bitcoin ten years ago, five years ago, and have come across a substantial amount of wealth.

于是问题就变成：如何在不出售比特币的情况下改善生活？有时根据个人情况，适当出售部分比特币是合理选择。我们看到很多早期持有者在10万美元价位抛售，这有时是合理的。但更多人会说：我有X枚比特币，我要用其中一小部分抵押贷款，买更好的房子，或者梦寐以求的游艇之类。

And so then the question is, how can you make it how can you impact your life while not parting with the Bitcoin itself? And sometimes, the right decision, depending on your situation, is to part with some of the Bitcoin. We've seen a lot of selling from OGs at this 100 k level, and and sometimes that's what's reasonable. But a lot of times people say, okay, I have x amount of Bitcoin. I'm gonna borrow against a smaller amount of my stack to get a cooler house, to get the boat I've always wanted, whatever that is.

我认为还有一点：我们看到这个资产类别大幅升值。要知道当某样东西每年复合增长60%时，无论你拥有其他什么资产或收入多高——如果你身处顶级财富联赛，比特币就是你净资产的主要部分。靠工资或热门科技股根本无法超越它。它就是头猛兽，会占据你的投资组合，因此你需要在不抛售的情况下创造现金流动性，因为你相信它的潜力。

And so I think it's that as well, is that we've seen the asset class appreciate so much and you have people that, you know, if something's compounding at 60% a year, I don't care what else you own or how much money you make. If you're the if you're in the Premier League, Bitcoin's the majority of your net worth. You cannot outperform that thing with a salary or with a cool tech stock. It's just a monster. And so it it it crowds your portfolio, and you need a way to create cash liquidity without parting with it because you believe in it.

所以我认为这是税务...

So I I think that's the tax

诸如此类的方面。

aspects and so on.

是的。这是个非常有趣的产品，因为比特币发展得越好，它就越受欢迎。

Yeah. It's a very interesting product because it gets more popular the more Bitcoin grows.

没错。我认为你提到的另一个要素是资产类别的成熟度，我们现在看到更多人参与，因为这里有两方阵营。一方是借款方，你想去借款；另一方是贷款方和资本提供方。对吧？因为在你这边，需要出去获取资金才能借给借款方。

Yeah. And I think the other element to what you were saying, the maturity of the asset class, we are now seeing more people because there's two sides of the house here. You've got the borrowing side of the house, you you wanna go and borrow, and you've got the lender and capital provider side of the house. Right? Because you, on your side, have to go out, get capital to be able to lend it to the borrowing side of the house.

所以我认为另一个方面是这个等式中的资本提供方已经相对成熟了。百分之百。对吧？因为现在更多人愿意，比如说，借钱给贷款初创公司。

So I think the other aspect is the capital provider side of this equation has matured a little. 100%. Right? Because more people are now willing to, let's say, lend out to lending startups.

我想现在大家都知道我和Tether关系密切。我认识Apollo很久了。我们共同创办了我的另一家公司twenty one。要知道在2019、2020年时，我无法和Tether合作开发这个产品。如今Tether对我们创建不可再抵押的比特币抵押贷款产品起到了关键作用——可能是你能找到的最佳定价，且极其稳健。

I mean, I think it's no secret at this point that I have a close relationship with Tether. I've known Apollo for a very long time. We co founded my other business, twenty one. Mind you, in 2019, 2020, I I couldn't work with Tether on this product. You know, Tether now has been instrumental in us creating a no rehypothecation, probably the best pricing you can find, incredibly durable Bitcoin backed lending product.

2020年时利率为零。Tether当时从未产生过任何收入。

Back in 2020, interest rates were zero. Tether Tether had never made any revenue.

那时候围绕Tether的法律问题要多得多。明白吗？

There were lot more legal questions around Tether in those days. Know?

对，回到你的观点，你看这就是你，我希望保罗——我是说，他绝不可能成为世界上最忙的人。他现在不在这里。但保罗是个比特币信徒，一个元老级的比特币信徒，可能比任何人都更关心比特币。

Right. And so to your point, the but that's you you see and I hope Paulo I mean, there's no way he's gonna be the busiest man in the world. He's not sitting in here. But Paulo, like, is a Bitcoiner. An OG Bitcoiner that cares probably more about Bitcoin than anybody.

你现在看到比特币持有者拥有足够的财富来做出实质性改变，像Tether这样的公司可以审视比特币行业并表示：出于对这类资产的支持，我们要确保一切运作得当，并支持像Strike这样的比特币公司作为我们的LP供应商之一。对吧？总之，如果这说得通的话，这个行业绝对在成熟。绝对如此。

And you're now seeing bitcoiners have the amount of wealth to make substantial change, where someone like Tether can look at the bitcoin industry and say, out of support for the asset class, we're going to make sure that this is done properly and support Bitcoin companies like Strike as as one of our LP providers. Right? So so anyways, if that if that makes sense, the industry is absolutely maturing. Absolutely.

是的。我想也许就是这样。所以我认为随着时间的推移，随着更多资本提供者加入这个游戏并表示‘我们要开始放贷’或‘我们将成为这些比特币抵押贷款公司的资本提供者’，利率可能会开始下降。我觉得这很有意思。你刚才还提到了安全组件的问题。

Yeah. And I think maybe that's there you go. And, so I think that may also enable over time, maybe the interest rates can start to come down as more capital providers sort of come to the game and say, hey, we're gonna start lending or we are gonna be a capital provider to these lending Bitcoin collateralization companies. So I I think that's interesting. Now another thing you touched on was the security components of this.

当然，‘不是你的密钥，就不是你的币’，这些都是典型的比特币极客信条，我们完全赞同。在禁止再抵押方面，我们看到借贷领域的竞争，比如多重签名等技术。你能稍微谈谈这个吗？或许我们可以从再抵押这点开始讨论。

Now of course, not your keys, not your coins, all the typical, you know, maxi, you know, obviously we endorse all that. On the no rehypothecation side of things and I guess what we're seeing is competition in the lending, Bitcoin lending side, things like multi sig, things like this. Can you touch on a bit of that? Maybe we'll start with the rehypothecation point.

是的。Strike贷款不存在再抵押，这应该是最基本的原则。而且永远不会有。关于我们的收费和产品运作方式，我们只收取利率。

Yeah. So there's no rehypothecation with strike loans. That should be a baseline. And there never will be. I mean, about what we charge and how the product works, we only charge the rates.

其他公司你会看到贷款发起费、提前还款费。而像BlockFi这样的公司显然会通过再抵押资金来赚钱。我们只有一种盈利方式，就是利率。没有贷款发起费，

So with other companies you'll see origination fee, you'll see an early repayment fee. And then obviously people like BlockFi, they were re hypothecating capital to make money as well. We make money one way. And that's the rates. There is no origination fee.

没有提前还款费，也没有再抵押。而且永远不会有。作为一家精简的、专注于比特币的公司，我非常重视企业盈利。我认为通过财务方式让世界变得更美好的途径就是成为一家盈利的公司。

There's no early repayment fee. And there's no rehypothecation. And there never will be. Also as a really lean, bitcoin focused company, I care deeply about making a profit as a business. You know, I think the the financial way of making the world a better place is being a profitable company.

对吧？这意味着我们为周围人创造的价值超过了我们从世界消耗的资源。我们为世界创造的比我们从世界获取的更多。因此，作为盈利企业，我们只需按自认为公平的费率收费即可，无需其他操作。明确一点：不存在再抵押行为。

Right? Like, it means we're creating more value for those around us than we're consuming from the world. We're creating more for the world than it's taking us consume from the world. And so, as a profitable business, we don't need to we don't need to do anything else than charge you what we think is a fair rate. So just to be clear, no rehypothecation.

关于多重签名的问题——谢谢兄弟。这很有趣，因为产品运作模式是：我们对外筹集愿意借给我们的欧元、美元资金，然后向下游分配。我们拥有全部牌照，也有应用程序。

Now, on the multisig point. Thank you brother. On the multisig point, it's it's interesting because if you go to so the way the product works is we go out and we source the euros, the dollars from people that are willing to lend to us, and then we are able to distribute it downstream. We've got all the license. We've got the app.

我们具备产品、品牌和面向个人的分销渠道。但我们自身没有数十亿美元的资产负债表外资金可贷。我们实际上是在创建这个市场。所以当我告诉别人'我们正在发放数亿美元贷款'时，

We've got the products. We've got the brand to distribute it to the individual. But we ourselves don't have billions of dollars to lend off balance sheet. We're turning around and we create almost this market. And so when I go to someone and I say, we're issuing hundreds of millions of dollars of loans.

我们需要数十亿美元资本。对方会说'很好，这是几十亿。但抵押品在哪里？'我需要知道抵押品去向，而我回答'采用三选二多重签名托管，你们持有一把密钥'。

We're going to need billions of dollars of capital. And they say, cool. Here's billions of dollars. Now, where's the collateral? I need to know where the collateral is and I say, well, it's in a two of three multi sig and you get one key.

他们就会说'这等于我在没有抵押品处置权的情况下放贷。如果发生极端情况，这个产品的核心设计让我无法自我保护。所以我不会以优惠条件给你几十亿，只愿以15%利率借你一千万'。

They say, that. I'm basically giving you a loan with no I don't have access to the collateral. In an in an extreme event where something goes wrong, is the whole point of building this product, I can't protect myself. So I'm not gonna give you billions of dollars at cheap terms. I'll give you $10,000,000 at 15%.

所以这其实是...

And so it's it's

这就像他们在利率和资金规模之间的权衡。我想关键在于：如果多重签名的技术门槛降低，他们愿意提供更多资金。这是分层的

It's like a trade off of what rate they're willing to give and how much capital. So I guess the point is they're willing to give more capital if there's less of a technological hurdle on the multi It's tier

要让一个产品规模化会非常困难，尤其是当你开口就要别人给你几十亿美元，而随着Stripe的发展，最终可能是数百亿美元，但我却不愿给你任何控制权作为回报。听着，我是你能找到的最资深的比特币玩家。我会坚持到底，这就是我的立场。

going be tremendously difficult to scale a product where you say, hey, give me billions of dollars, and at at the way Stripe's growing, eventually tens of billions of dollars, and I'm not going to give you control of anything in return. I Listen. I'm as Bitcoin OG as you'll ever find. Like, I will die on this hill. That's my line.

但你说得对。我也不会在没有任何抵押的情况下给别人100亿美元。所以我们或许可以通过技术手段共同改进这一点。但Strike的策略是打造最便宜、最可靠，同时也最实用的产品，能够规模化并满足需求。如果这不符合你的风险承受能力，就别用它。

But it's a good point. I wouldn't give anyone $10,000,000,000 in exchange for no collateral either. And so there are probably technical ways that we can all improve this. But our approach at Strike is we're going to build the cheapest, most reliable, but also most practical product we can that can scale and service the needs. And if it's not accordance to your risk tolerance, don't use it.

你不会伤害我的感情。我理解。我认为这个行业会逐渐成熟，假以时日会有解决办法。但行业目前的分歧在于，你无法将产品规模扩大到行业所需的程度，同时又不给那些给你数百亿美元的人实际控制权。

You're not going to hurt my feelings. I get it. And I think the industry will mature, and there's ways to solve this over time. But But I think the division that you're seeing in the industry is you cannot scale a product right now to a scale to where in which the industry needs it, where you're not actually giving the person giving you billions of dollars. Yeah.

没有任何监督或对抵押品的所有权。这对他们来说确实是个糟糕的交易。

Any any oversight or or ownership over the collateral. It's a really bad deal on on their part.

是啊，也许这只是时间问题，以及信任度的问题。因为他们可能需要在你的系统中投入更多信任。而他们那边，要么自己管理密钥，要么请专业人士代劳。这完全是另一个层面的问题。所以我能理解这其中存在某种权衡。

Yeah. Well, maybe it's just a time thing and, a comfort level thing that because, you know, maybe they would have to place a lot more trust in your kind of in your systems as well. And on their side, they would have to kind of either manage keys or have someone professional to do that for them. It's like another whole level. So, yeah, I I think I can understand there's a bit of a a trade

确实存在权衡。我想说的是，我们的产品才上线六个月左右。这不是在贬低行业里的其他建设者，但比特币抵押借贷领域充斥着太多不良行为者，比如FTX、Celsius。当我们进入时，发现要做的事情太多了，这里几乎是一片空白。

off there. I mean, what what I'll say is we only launched our product six months ago, about. And and this is no shade on anyone else that's been building in the industry, but so much of this borrowing against Bitcoin, really bad actors, FTX, Celsius. And so when we entered, we realized there's so much to do. There's like barely anything here.

我们上线才六个月，就已经成为头部之一。这里没有信用额度，没有担保信用卡，没有成熟的抵押品和透明度方案。我们正在以不同方式研究储备证明。

I mean, we launched, and in six months, we're like one of the top. We're like, there's no lines of credit. There's no secured credit card. There's no sophisticated ways to think about collateral and transparency. And really, there's different ways we're working on proof of reserves.

完全没有那些问题。我想说的是，这个领域在创新方面是常青的，未来还有更多创新。我们从未推出过增长如此迅速且如此引人注目的产品。这充分说明了人们对‘如何在不卖出比特币的情况下靠它生活’的需求有多大。而且你也不该因为清算问题而失眠。

There's none of that. And so what I will say is I think the space is evergreen in the amount of innovation that there is to come. Like we have never launched a product that's growing this fast that strikes. So it it tells you the amount of demand that people have for help me live on my Bitcoin without selling it. And you shouldn't have to lose sleep over liquidation.

你不该被迫接受12个月的期限。你应该能够获得信贷额度。你不该感到不确定是否存在再抵押的情况。我完全同意这些观点。最让我难以置信的是，居然没有人做过这件事。

You shouldn't have to be forced to use a twelve month term. You should be able to get a line of credit. You shouldn't have to feel like you don't know if there's rehypoth. I agree with all of that. The crazy thing that I couldn't believe is that no one had built it.

这简直令人难以置信。我感到很幸运能够有机会研究这些问题。正如你所说，我认为随着时间的推移，情况会好转。奇怪的是，这是我们行业中一个投资不足的领域，几乎被山寨币玩家和骗子占据了主导地位，坦白说。

Like, it's mind boggling. I I feel blessed to be in the position to work on these things. So to your point, I think with time, it'll get better. It's been, weirdly, an underinvested sector of our industry that's been almost crowded by shitcoiners and scammers, to blunt.

是的。我认为，正如你所说，随着我们经历行业的起起落落，每次大的下行周期都会吓跑很多人，可能也吓跑了一些资金提供者，甚至借款方的人也被吓到了。这是可以理解的，但与此同时，行业正在成熟。展望未来是件好事。你知道，数字在上升，越来越多人想要长期持有。

Yeah. And I think, maybe we we've, kind of all sort of as as we've kind of gone through the ups and downs of the industry, as you said, I think that has kind of each time we've kind of taken a big down cycle, that's kind of scared a lot of people away and maybe scared off some of the capital providers, scared off some of the people who wanna do it on the borrowing side as well because they've been scared too. So it's understandable, but at the same time, the industry is maturing. It's a good thing looking forward. You know, number number is going up and more and more people, wanna hodl.

那么，最后还有什么总结性的想法吗？我们只剩一两分钟的时间了。是的。

So, you know, last, you know, any closing thoughts, last one or two minutes, that's all we've got time for. Yeah.

不，我的意思是，我非常感谢我们作为一家企业所获得的支持。回想五年前作为创始人，我对Strike应该为世界提供什么的判断大错特错。回头看，我当时简直是个白痴，以为人们需要我们处理闪电支付。

No. I I mean, I I appreciate the support that we get as a business. You know, I I was so wrong on what I thought the world needed from Strike as a founder five years ago. I was like, looking back, I was an idiot. I thought people wanted us to process lightning payments.

正是这个群体和整个互联网告诉我们该成为什么样的人。因此作为企业，我们深深感激大家的支持，感谢每个人直言不讳的意见，也感谢你们邀请我上台。正如我所说，能为比特币用户打造这些产品是一种荣誉，虽然我们只是推动这一资产类别发展、帮助比特币改变人们生活的一小部分，但却是重要的一部分。我对你们所有人以及公司与社区的关系充满感激之情。

And it's this crowd and and the internet at large that told us who we needed to be. So I think as a business, we just deeply appreciate the support and the fact that everyone's vocal with us and you have me on stage. I mean, it's an honor, like I said, to build these products for Bitcoiners and feel like we are a small piece, but an important piece to, progressing the asset class and helping Bitcoin change people's lives. So I'm just very grateful and thankful for all of you guys and the relationship that the company has with the community.

太棒了。好的，我们时间到了。我会为Strike的Jack Mallers安排一个机会。这里是Plan B播客，正在卢加诺为您直播。我是Stefan Lovera。

Fantastic. Well, that's all we have time for. I'll put a chance together for Jack Mallers from Strike. We are here on the Plan B podcast coming to you live from Lugano. My name is Stefan Lovera.

我是客座主持人，再次与Rumble的CEO兼联合创始人Chris Pavlovsky一起。Chris，对你来说这是非常激动人心的一年，对吧？

I'm your guest host, and I'm rejoined by Chris Pavlovsky, CEO and cofounder of Rumble. Chris, it's been a very exciting, year for you, hasn't it?

确实如此。至少可以说很有趣。与过去五年完全不同的局面，很兴奋能在2025年站在这里。

It sure has. It's been been fun to say the least. A total different landscape than it was in the last five years, exciting to be here in 2025.

据我所知，我看到你们的公开数据显示，第三季度营收约2500万美元，月活跃用户达5000万，平台增长势头强劲，是吗？

As I understand, I think I saw in your public numbers, Q3 you had like $25,000,000 in revenue and you've got like 50,000,000 MAU users and you're seeing a lot of growth on the platform, aren't you?

是的，我们最近公开的第二季度数据显示，Rumble平台月活跃用户为5100万。

Yeah, so the last reported number in q two that we reported publicly was 51,000,000 monthly active users on the Rumble platform.

太好了。那么，我想深入聊聊比特币和USDT钱包的事。我们上次讨论过，但我知道可能有些新进展。能给我们更新下Rumble钱包的现状吗？

Excellent. And so, I think, I I I'd love to, dive into the Bitcoin and USDT while the wallet. We spoke about this last time, but, I know there's probably been some movement on that. Do you wanna give us a bit of an update what's happening there on the Rumble wallet?

是的。昨天是我们首次与创作者VivaFray测试钱包功能，完成了多笔打赏。这是大型平台首次接收比特币和USDT打赏，发生在昨天上午。我们计划在未来几个月逐步向更多创作者和用户推出，预计12月上旬到中旬全面发布，覆盖Rumble所有用户。这个项目是与Tether合作开发的，他们今年早些时候对我们进行了重大投资。

Yeah. So yesterday was the very first day that we, tested the wallet with the creator, VivaFray, then, we made multiple tips. So it was the very first time a large platform was receiving tips in, Bitcoin and USDT, and that happened, yesterday morning. So, we're gonna be rolling it out in the in the coming months here to multiple different creators and users, and hopefully for a full release early December to mid December, and have that out to the entire user base on Rumble. So we've been building that in cooperation with Tether since, they took a big position us in earlier this year.

太棒了。我想我可能更像个比特币极客，只是好奇，如果你对细节不太了解也没关系，这是支持闪电网络的功能吗？还是只是普通的链上支付？能给我们简单介绍一下吗？

Fantastic. And I'm I guess, maybe I'm more of a Bitcoin nerd, I'm just curious, And you tell me if you're not as deep in the detail, but is it like a Lightning supported thing, or is it just kind of on chain payments? Like, can you give us a a bit of information on that?

这个钱包将支持比特币。你可以用比特币打赏。同时也支持USDT和xAUT。我们会让创作者一开始用起来非常简单。我们的用户群体基本上还没接触过比特币和稳定币的世界。

So the wallet's gonna have, Bitcoin. You're gonna be able to tip in Bitcoin. You're also gonna be able to tip in USDT and, xAUT. We're gonna keep it really, really simple for creators to begin with. We our user base is not it it hasn't really been introduced to the whole Bitcoin and Stablecoin world.

他们大多数人可能连稳定币是什么都不知道。这需要一定的学习成本，所以我们想尽量简化操作，不让这个世界的复杂性干扰他们的使用体验。我们正努力让操作极其简单，让用户体验极其顺畅，从而让美国那些尚未接触过这些的人群能够接受。他们都明白黄金是什么，都明白美元是什么，但当你开始介绍USDT这类稳定币时，比如黄金稳定币...

Most of them probably don't even know what a Stablecoin is. You know, it it it it takes a little bit of a learning curve, so we wanna keep it super simple for them so that their experience is, not intruded by the complexities of, what this world has. So it's, we're trying to keep it super, super simple, make make the user experience super simple, and be able to convert a population in The United States, on using this that hasn't really been that introduced to it. They under they all understand what gold is. They all understand what the US dollar is, but once you start introducing USDT, like stablecoins, you know, a stablecoin in gold

完全是另一个世界。

It's another world.

比特币也不一样。对我来说同样如此。每个人都有自己的学习曲线，这不是你立刻就能理解的。但一旦理解了，就会发现这其实是世界上最简单的东西，和其他事物没什么不同。

Or Bitcoin, it it it's different. And it's like it was different for me too. Like, everyone had their learning curve, and it's not something that you, immediately get. When once you get it, it's like the simplest thing in the world. It's just like a you know, the same thing as everything else.

但有时候就是存在这种复杂性，我们想尽可能为Rumble用户（或者说所有用户）消除这些障碍。是的。

But it's, it sometimes it's just that complexity there, you want to remove as much of that for the Rumble users as possible, or for any users for that Yeah.

现在西方世界的另一个大话题是言论自由。我知道你对此发表过看法。我看到一条有趣的推文，好像是Pavel Durov说他40岁生日但没心情庆祝。你也回应说：首先生日快乐，然后提到世界局势正在恶化而非好转，人们可能对此有些视而不见。

Now another big topic is free speech in the West right now. I know you've been commenting on this. I saw an interesting tweet, I think it was Pavel Durov, said it was his 40 birthday but he didn't feel like celebrating. And you responded as well saying, hey, actually yeah, well first off, happy birthday. And then you said things are getting worse around the world, not better, and people are maybe a bit, blinded on this.

你能详细说明一下吗？比如，你如何看待世界各地言论自由的现状？

Can you elaborate a bit? Like, what do you see around the world, the state of free speech?

在美国，由于第一修正案的存在，言论自由一直得到保障。两周前我们在法国意外获胜，法院裁定法国政府发给我们的信函无效，这完全出乎我的预料。

So it's getting in America, it was it's it's always been there because of the First Amendment. We had a win in France two weeks ago, which I didn't expect. The courts ruled in our favor that, the letters that France sent to us were not, valid. And for me, I didn't expect that. I didn't expect, the French courts to come in our favor, but they did.

对我来说这是场非常有趣的胜利。但全球形势确实在恶化，看看巴西、英国和欧洲正在发生的事就知道了。

So to me, that was a very interesting win. But I do think things are getting worse around the world. We see what's happening in Brazil. We see what's happening in The UK. We see what's happening in Europe.

如今在世界范围内发表言论越来越难，尤其是言论自由理念已不再容易实现。虽然美国确实提供了这种保护（对此我非常感激），但其他国家没有类似的第一修正案，而且情况似乎在急剧恶化——我们亲眼目睹这种趋势。但我仍相信我们能反击，毕竟自由从来不是免费的，必须为之奋斗，这正是我们在做的。

And not easier to deliver speech, especially the the idea of freedom of speech is is not easy anymore around the world. It is really protected in The United States and, you know, very grateful for that, but, the rest of the world doesn't have that same First Amendment, and it seems like it's getting a lot worse around the rest of the world, and we're seeing that it's getting a lot worse. But I I am still hopeful we can fight back, and it's gonna you know, freedom doesn't come for free. You have to fight for it. You have to fight hard for it, and that's what we're gonna do, and that's what we have been doing.

法国的案例证明通过抗争能赢得胜利，我们需要更多这样的战斗。不能因为特朗普政府执政就松懈——他们保护言论自由固然很好，但绝不能视为理所当然。全球范围内反自由的力量正在强势反扑，这需要大企业、无数坚信自由的个体共同发声，我们必须形成多数派并高声疾呼：自由需要争取。

And France is an example of us fighting for it and and winning, so I think we need more of that, more fight. We can't give up because the Trump administration is in power. That's, it's great that that they're there and they protect freedom of expression, but, it's also it's you can't take it for granted because the rest of the world is pushing back on that very hard, and you need big companies, you need a lot of individuals, you need a lot of people that really believe in that to push back, and we need to be the majority, and we need to be loud about it. You have to fight for freedom.

是的。能否具体谈谈威胁的形态？比如在英国，有人因网络言论被判入狱或遭警方上门搜查。这是主要的威胁类型吗？还是像欧盟的聊天监控这类措施？

Yeah. And so maybe can you elaborate a little bit on the threat? Like as an example, in The UK, people are getting sent to jail or police officers are coming to their house because of things they said online. What are the main threats? Is that the main kind of threat you see, or is it things like on the chat control side in the EU?

你能否阐述下当前言论自由面临的主要威胁来源？

Do you want to explain a bit about where you see the principal threat here on free speech?

是的。我认为这本质上是政府试图控制民众的言论。他们通过聊天或其他渠道使用的各种手段只是表象，但根本上，对言论自由的威胁是广泛存在的。这实际上就是要确保他们能控制你说什么，掌握你的言论内容，他们想剥夺你的隐私权——而这一切都源于，要知道，没有言论自由就根本谈不上民主。如果连批评政府行为不当或评价他人好坏的权利都没有，那就不配称为民主。

Yeah. I would say it's just it's governments wanting to control what people say. And the mechanisms in which they use it through chats or whatnot are just mechanisms, but essentially, the threat to free speech is is broad. It's it's basically making sure they control what you say, making sure that they're aware of what you're saying, they want to get rid of your right to privacy, and that all stems from the ability of, you know you can't really even have a democracy without the ability to have freedom of speech. To be able to say that this government is doing something bad or this person is doing something good or this person is doing something bad, if you get rid of that, you're not a democracy.

这不是自由社会，而是完全相反的状态。没人愿意生活在这样的环境里，至少我绝对不愿意。问题在于他们实施控制的手段太过多样，这就像——

You're not a free society, you're the complete opposite of that. And that's not something that anyone wants to live in, not me anyways. And, it's I think the issue is it's the mechanisms in which they apply because there's so many different mechanisms Well, it's like

贸易往来

trade of

无论是在互联网、公共广场还是聊天软件中，核心问题都一样：政府总想控制民众。他们想维持权力，因此要压制你向权力说真话的行为。这就是他们持续打压的重点。

On the internet or whether it's the public square or whether it's through chats or whatever it may be. It's just the general broad idea that governments want to have controls over their population. They want to stay in power, and they want to make sure that you speak truth to power. That's what they're always trying to crack down on. That's what they're gonna continue to crack down on.

这是个亘古不变的问题。几千年来，政府和权力机构都想维持统治，而他们实现这一目标的方式就是限制并剥夺你的言论自由。

This is an age old problem. This is thousands and thousands of years. Governments and power authorities wanna maintain power, and that's they do that by trying to limit your and and seize your ability to speak.

是的。我想稍微转向AI方面的话题。我知道你们最近可能与Perplexity有合作消息？能否详细说明一下？据我理解，这是Perplexity与Comet浏览器的合作对吗？

Yeah. I wanna pivot a little bit onto the AI side of things. I know you also had a there was an announcement maybe recently on, Perplexity, so you're doing a partnership there. Can you explain that for us a little bit? As I understand, it's a partnership with Perplexity and the, Comet browser, yeah?

没错。我们与Perplexity达成了广泛合作：一是广告业务部分，他们将在广告方面与我们协作；二是我们已将其整合进Rumble Premium套餐，订阅Rumble Premium就能以几乎相同的价格获得Perplexity服务。

Yeah. So we did, a wide ranging partnership with Perplexity. One is the advertising component, so they're gonna be working with us for, on the advertising side. Two is that we've bundled them now in with Rumble Premium. So when you buy Rumble Premium, you can get Perplexity for basically the same price as Perplexity.

在12月31日之前，你基本上可以享受买一送一的优惠。此外，我们将利用Perplexity来优化平台上的推荐和内容发现功能。这是一项广泛的合作伙伴关系，是我们平台的首创。我们对这次合作感到非常兴奋，因为AI技术及其应用对Rumble平台至关重要，尤其对我们的创作者群体意义重大。

You get two for one, essentially, up until December 31. And then three, we're gonna be using Perplexity to help with our recommendations and our discoverability on the platform. So it's a it's a wide ranging partnership. It's the first of our kind, and it's, you know, something that we're we're really excited about because we you know, AI and getting into AI and being able to use these tools are very important to the Rumble platform, and it's especially important to our creator base.

是的。说到你刚才提到的内容发现方面，这会如何改变或提升Rumble用户的体验？你认为这只是意味着更好的推荐，还是有更深层次的影响？

Yeah. And so when it comes to the discoverability side, as you mentioned, how does that change or improve the experience for the Rumble user? Do you think it just means better recommendations or what does it mean?

没错。我们正在关注多个方面：比如在视频中定位精彩片段，为用户提供发现这些片段的能力。对创作者而言，内容发现显然是最重要的——获得更多浏览量，让用户找到他们的内容，并向正确用户推荐合适内容。AI将以我们尚未讨论的方式深刻影响视频领域。

Yeah. So in terms of we're we're looking at multiple different things, finding moments in videos, giving you know, providing that ability for users to find those moments. Discoverability is obviously the most important thing for a creator, getting more views and being able to find their content and being able to recommend the right content to the right user. So there's a lot of different things. But AI is gonna impact video in ways that, we're not even talking about yet.

例如，它能自动帮你剪辑视频并分发到其他平台，还能以前所未有的方式帮你实现视频内容变现。我认为必须充分认识到AI的潜力边界——它的可能性真的非常非常广阔。

Like, it's gonna help you clip your videos and send them to other platforms automatically. It's gonna help you monetize your video content in better ways than we've ever seen before. I think you gotta really look at how far AI can go because it can go really, really far.

是的。关于视频剪辑和内容检索这点说得很好。无论是创作端还是消费端，能精准定位到讨论特定话题的时间点（即使没有时间戳标记）的搜索技术确实非常实用。说到Comet浏览器这方面，能否详细说明下？

Yeah. That's a good point around the the clipping and, especially searching and finding things. Right? Even, like, on the making things side or on the consumption side of things, it's very useful to be able to kind of seek to the exact point that they talked about a particular topic and maybe it's not time stamped or whatever, this kind of search technique, I think that's pretty useful. On the Comet side, so this is the browser, can you elaborate a bit there?

那边也有合作关系吗？

Is there a partnership on that side as well or no?

是的。与Comet浏览器的合作属于广告合作伙伴关系。他们投入大量资金通过我们向Rumble用户推广产品。当你注册该浏览器时，还能同步获得Rumble高级会员的权益。

Yeah. So the the partnership with the Comet browser is the advertising partnership. So Comet's spending a lot of money with us to advertise their product to our Rumble base and Rumble users. And when you sign up to that browser, there's a partnership there that allows you to get Rumble premium as well.

好的，明白了。我认为还有一个更广泛的话题是关于自由科技的。我记得你也曾谈到过这个话题。显然，我认为比特币就是这类自由科技之一。

Okay, got you. Understood. And then I think there's like maybe a broader topic around Freedom Tech. I think it's something you've spoken about as well. Obviously, I think Bitcoin is one of those Freedom Techs.

人们会讨论它是否是——我不知道——比如Signal或TOR这类东西。你对自由科技是如何理解的？

People talk about whether it's, I don't know, Signal or TOR or these different things. Where are you how are you understanding Freedom Tech?

这正是Rumble的核心理念。我们希望打造一个完全自由的生态系统。在我们开展的每一项业务支柱中，都将自由置于首位。我喜欢将Rumble视为多支柱架构，总体而言，Rumble的宗旨就是确保每个支柱都围绕自由构建并保持这种自由精神。

So that is the entire ethos of Rumble. We want it to be a freedom ecosystem entirely. We want to be freedom first with every pillar of business that we want to do. So the way I like to look at Rumble is it's multiple pillars. Generally speaking, the purpose of Rumble is to make sure each pillar is built around freedom and maintains that freedom ethos.

首先是媒体板块，即我们的视频平台，最终会推出短视频产品。还有Rumble Studio支持全平台直播。其次是广告产品，它允许你在整个互联网（不仅是Rumble）上推广商品。另一个支柱是金融产品——Rumble钱包，支持自由交易。此外还有云服务支柱，提供基础设施支持企业建设。

So you have media, which is our video platform, which will eventually have short our Shorts product. It has Rumble Studio product that allows you to livestream everywhere. Then you have your advertising product, and the advertising product is allowing in exchange basically for you to advertise your products across the Internet, and and not just Rumble but everywhere. And then the other pillar is the the financial product, which will be Rumble Wallet, allowing you to to to transact. The and another pillar will be cloud, allowing you to build your business on top of an infrastructure.

这四大支柱都贯穿着自由精神：媒体保障言论自由，广告实现跨平台自由推广，金融确保交易自由。我们将推出不可冻结的非托管钱包，永远不会阻止你向他人转账。

And when you look at those four pillars, they all have an ethos of freedom. So, like, free speech, you know, the ability to to to freely express yourselves. Advertising, the ability to freely advertise across all these different platforms. Then you you have, the the finance side, the freedom to transact. You know, you you we're gonna have a noncustodial wallet that can never be canceled and that will never stop you from tipping somebody else.

云服务则是真正的'自由高速公路'，为所有自由产品提供底层支持。展望未来，我们计划进军AI、生产力套件、邮箱、浏览器等领域，还要建设数据中心。每个新增支柱——比如AI——都将代表某种自由：智能自由，让你完全掌控自己的AI，就像拥有手机上的私人智能助手，而非被企业控制。就像我们不拥有比特币但支持使用那样。

Then the cloud. It's literally the Freedom Highway. It's where all the infrastructure is built to support all these different Freedom products. And then when you look at the future of what we wanna do, we wanna get into AI, we wanna get into productivity suites, email, browsers, etcetera, and we wanna con we wanna get into data centers. We wanna build more pillars, and each one of those pillars will like AI, for example, will be the the freedom for intelligence, the freedom for you to own your own intelligence, for you to be able to have your own AI on your own phone that you own that a company doesn't own like us, something that kind of the same way we don't own Bitcoin, but we're allowing we we will enable you to use it.

我们无法控制比特币网络，也无法控制你的钱包。Rumble所有业务支柱都将贯彻这一原则。

We we're we can't control it. So, and we can't control your wallet. We wanna do that for all these different pillars across everything we do at Rumble.

是的，听起来很棒。关于Rumble云服务这方面，我觉得也很有意思，因为历史上人们经常被突然封禁，对吧？如果你持有不同观点，他们就会试图在云服务层面封杀你。而且最近AWS还出了个大范围宕机事件，你想对此评论几句吗？

Yeah. Sounds fantastic. And so on the Rumble cloud side of things, I guess that's also an interesting one just because people historically were getting shut down, right, like if you had the wrong view, they would sort of try to cancel you at the cloud level and I guess recently there was the kind of big topical AWS, outage as well, so do you want to comment a bit on that?

没错，我们之前就目睹AWS一夜之间封杀了Parlour，直接摧毁了一个企业。当时我们就意识到，必须建立自己的云服务才能避免Rumble遭遇同样命运。现在我们已经完全独立，两周前AWS宕机时对我们毫无影响。

Yeah, so we saw a while ago AWS cancel Parlour, and they overnight just took out a business. When we saw that, we were like, wow, this is existential for us to build our own cloud and make sure that no one can do that to Rumble, and we're in a position right now where no one can do that to us. We are completely independent. AWS went down two weeks ago. Doesn't even bother us one bit.

我们的客户都正常运行。Truth Social正常运行，Rumble正常运行。AWS宕机时，其他所有网站都瘫痪了。

Well, all our customers are up. Truth Social's up. Rumble is up. AWS is down. All the other sites are down.

我们依然坚挺。我们建立了完全独立的基础设施。在科技巨头主导的世界里，这至关重要。看看这些企业：Rumble和Tether代表自由、韧性、独立和隐私；而其他科技巨头则相反，他们主张审查、控制、中心化和捆绑合同等。我们是全球在各项自由支柱上践行最彻底的企业。

We're still up. So we built a completely independent infrastructure. And that is really, really important in the in the world of big tech because when you take a look at all the companies, you have Rumble and Tether, that basically are for freedom, they're for resilience, independence, privacy, and then you look at the other guys on big tech, and they're for the opposite. They're for censorship, control, centralization, and, locked in contracts, etcetera. So we're really the freedom based company on all different points of pillars that that that we execute on more than any other company in the world.

关键是要占据那条数字高速公路，必须扎根在那片云上。如果没有自己的基础设施，我们就失去控制权。所以我们从最底层开始建设。

And really, it has to sit on that highway. It has to sit on that cloud. If it's not sitting on that infrastructure, then we have no control. So we're building from the very, very bottom.

我知道你们也在多方位对抗科技巨头，我记得你们就RumbleLinks被谷歌降权提起了诉讼？现在进展如何？

Now I know you've also, been battling big tech in some ways that I know, I think you had, was it a lawsuit with Google around deboosting of RumbleLinks? What's happened there?

我们起诉了谷歌自我优待行为。在我们看来，他们偏袒YouTube。这种现象普遍存在，我认为谷歌在多个领域都存在严重反垄断问题。他们不仅是多领域的垄断者，我们提起的诉讼也不限于自我优待，还包括广告领域的垄断——我们认为他们垄断了整个广告市场。

So we have a lawsuit with Google for self preferencing. They're pushing their, in in our opinion, they preference YouTube. But this happens everywhere, and they they obviously in I think there's a big antitrust problem with Google on many different fronts. I believe they're a monopoly, on on many different fronts. We have multiple lawsuits, not just on self preferencing, but we also have one in the advertising space, which I believe they have a monopoly on the ad ad market.

我们正在对谷歌发起多项不同基金的挑战。我认为更多竞争确实至关重要。我坚信《谢尔曼法案》的理念——如果一家公司掌控一切，对消费者和社会都绝非好事。不能让企业的权力凌驾于政府之上。

So there's multiple different funds that we're challenging, Google on. And, you know, I I think more competition is is really important. I really do believe in the Sherman Act. I really believe that, if there's one company that controls everything, that's not good for the consumers, and it's not good for society. You can't have a can't have a company that has more power than a government.

谷歌正处于这种状态：他们在信息、广告、视频、搜索等领域拥有巨大的权力和控制力。我认为他们在众多领域都形成了垄断。

And Google's in that state where they have enormous amount of power, they have enormous amount of control on information, on advertising, on video, on search. I think they have monopolies in so many different respective spaces.

也有人提出担忧，比如现在连维基百科这类平台都存在某种偏见。这种网络偏见会影响你们的建设决策吗？

There's also think people are raising a lot of concerns about things like even nowadays Wikipedia, things like that, that there's a certain bias there. Does that I guess, online bias play into any of your, building decisions there?

没错。他们显然会歪曲事实来抹黑Rumble，这种观点我当然不认同。在我看来，维基百科就是全球多个情报机构联合操纵的巨型情报行动，旨在针对他们不认可的叙事制造舆论。他们会按照自己的意图丑化任何个人或企业——这就是我对维基百科的认知。

Yeah. Obviously, they, you know, they slant things to give an opinion about Rumble Rumble that I obviously disagree with. Wikipedia, in my my mind, is one giant intel op by multiple different intel agencies around the world to basically influence and create propaganda around whatever narrative they disagree with. So they'll characterize whoever they wanna characterize or whatever company they wanna characterize in a way that tries to malign them or defame them. And, that's how I look at Wikipedia.

我认为它就是个垃圾堆，以多种方式危害世界。可悲的是像谷歌这样的公司还利用维基百科为其站台。我怀疑他们根本就是通过维基百科来操控搜索结果，充当这些情报机构和政府的打手，向民众灌输不恰当的内容。他们本应公平对待所有搜索结果，而不是利用维基百科人为提升某些内容——但我觉得他们就是这么干的。

I think it's a pile of garbage. I I I think it does a disservice to the world in many different ways, but, it it it it's sad that companies like Google use Wikipedia to and prop them up, and it's my thought that they actually use Wikipedia to basically influence their search results to be arms of these intel agencies and these governments to kind of push things that, among populations are in my mind just not appropriate and it's not what they should be doing, they should be treating everybody fairly and equally in their search and not using Wikipedia as a source to move certain items up in their search but I believe that's what they do.

我们只剩一分钟了。展望未来，人们还能期待Rumble带来哪些新动向？

I know we've only got about a minute left, so I guess any other things looking out to the future, what else can people expect to see coming from Rumble?

这才是我最期待的未来。今年早些时候Tether向Rumble投资了7.75亿美元。我们与Apollo的合作计划规模宏大、雄心勃勃且令人振奋。那些我提到的核心业务都将构成Rumble的未来图景。

So it's the future that I'm looking forward to the most. Obviously, Tether invested in Rumble, $775,000,000 earlier this year. The plans that we have with Apollo are are huge, ambitious, and exciting. We cannot wait to to walk the future here. All those pillars I was talking about are the future of Rumble.

我们想深度投入人工智能领域。我们想全力打造生产力套件。我们的钱包功能即将上线，我们非常期待执行所有这些战略。最棒的是我们有支持者——我们有资金实力实现这些目标，而且我们的支持者Tethr和我们一样雄心勃勃。

We wanna get heavily into AI. We wanna get heavily into the productivity suites. We we have the wallet around the corner, and, we're really excited to kinda execute on all these strategies. And the best part is we have a backer. We have, we have the financial means to get this done, and we have a backer that's, very, very ambitious like we are, and that's Tethr.

所以我对未来从未如此兴奋过。虽然工作量巨大，今年我们已经启动了许多工作，2026年我们将继续推进。会有许多新事物即将面世，我已经迫不及待想向大家展示了，对我来说越快越好。

So I'm I've never been more excited about the future. It's, it's a lot of work. We've put a lot of this work in into motion this year, and we will, we'll continue to do that in 2026. So there will be a lot of new things that we'll be introducing, and I can't wait to introduce them. Can't come fast enough for me.

如果说我还有什么愿望，那就是希望开发速度能更快些。这让我想起鲍尔默总挂在嘴边的'开发者、开发者、开发者'——

I guess the one thing I wish more of is, more more velocity in development, and, it goes back to Balmer always saying developers, developers, developers. That

那个小视频

little video

我经常看到的，

that I keep seeing,

你知道的，一直记着

you know, keep that

这句话，因为对我们想构建的东西至关重要。我们需要更多开发者，他们对我们的建设如此重要。所以我对未来充满期待，期待我们能在这里打造出首个自由精神企业。

in my head because it's so important for what we want to build. We need more of them, and they're they're so important to what we're building. So you know I'm so excited for the future and what what we can build here on, in building the very first Freedom Ethos company.

太棒了。好的，这就是我们今天的全部内容。请大家为克里斯鼓掌。谢谢。

Fantastic. Well that's all we've got time for. Everyone please put your hands together for Chris. Thank you.

谢谢。感谢大家。谢谢邀请我来。

Thanks. Thank you. Thanks for having me.