SLP450 比特币开发者教育概览与Josibake

大家好，您正在收听Stefan Lovera播客，这是一档由Swan Bitcoin呈现的关于比特币与奥地利经济学的节目。今天我的嘉宾是Josie Baig，他是一位比特币核心开发者，我们将讨论比特币开发者教育及相关资源，为那些有兴趣成为比特币开发者的人提供信息——无论是直接参与比特币核心开发、其他比特币实现方案，还是比特币生态系统中相关领域如闪电网络、应用层或其他方向。本节目由Swan Bitcoin赞助播出。

Hi. You're listening to Stefan Lovera podcast, a show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics brought to you by Swan Bitcoin. Today, my guest is Josie Baig. He is a Bitcoin core developer, and we're talking today about Bitcoin developer education and resources available for those of you who are interested and looking into becoming a Bitcoin developer, whether that is directly on Bitcoin core another implementation of Bitcoin or something else related in the Bitcoin ecosystem, whether that's Lightning or application level or other things. Now this show is brought to you by Swan Bitcoin.

对于企业主听众，请考虑将比特币纳入公司资产负债表。现在操作比以往任何时候都更简单。Swan Bitcoin Treasury Solutions能轻松帮您将比特币整合到财务战略中，通过专业指导实现比特币投资、托管和管理策略的自动化。别忘了，我们还提供比特币福利计划。

So for those of you who have a business, think about adding Bitcoin to your corporate or business balance sheet. It's never been easier. Swan Bitcoin Treasury Solutions can make it easy for you to incorporate Bitcoin into your financial strategy. You can automate your Bitcoin investment, custody, and management strategy with expert guidance. And don't forget, there's a Bitcoin benefit plan.

若您想为员工提供额外激励，比如每月100美元的比特币奖励，比特币福利计划能协助实现，Swan将承担所有繁琐工作。感兴趣请访问swan.com/business。开发者朋友们请注意，Blockstream正在运营一个名为'Build on l two'的社区项目。

So for those of you who want to give an additional incentive, let's say a $100 of Bitcoin for your employees every month, Bitcoin benefit plan can help you with that, and Swan handles all the heavy lifting. So if you're interested in this plan, go to swan.com/business. Now if you are a developer, this particular program will be interesting for you also. Blockstream is running a community. It's called Build on l two.

这个新成立的倡议项目是由社区主导的协作平台，面向在Core Lightning和Liquid Network上构建的贡献者与企业。建设者可以通过活动获得产品经理、设计师和工程师的反馈，加入导师计划加速成功，或与志同道合者交流合作。

So this is being formed now. It's an initiative. It's a community led effort for contributors and companies building on Core Lightning and the Liquid Network. So if you are a builder and you need some feedback from product managers or designers or engineers coming together, you can come together through events. You can join a mentorship program to fast track your success or just have some other like minded individuals to chat and work together with.

立即注册请访问buildonl2.com。在比特币安全领域，coinkite.com提供多款实用工具，最著名的是Cold Card——这款比特币硬件签名设备（原称硬件钱包）可用于生成私钥并安全存储比特币。

So go sign up. You can see that platform over at buildonl2.com. Now when it comes to securing our Bitcoin, coinkite.com make a lot of really useful tools, most notably the cold card. This is known as a Bitcoin hardware signing device, previously known as a hardware wallet. You can use this to generate your private keys and then use it to store your Bitcoin.

本质上，您通过存储在Cold Card中的私钥控制地址。该设备能轻松实现密钥离线保管，并兼容Sparrow Wallet、Spectre Desktop和Electrum等钱包。购买Cold Card请访问coinkites.com，使用优惠码Lavera可享折扣。

And basically what you're doing is the addresses are controlled by a private key on or stored in your cold card. And the cold card helps make it easy for you to secure your keys and keep them offline. And you can use it easily with wallets like Sparrow Wallet, Spectre Desktop, or Electrum. So if you're interested in getting a cold card, go to coinkites.com. Use code Lavera for a discount on your cold cards.

现在让我们进入与Josie的对话环节。Josie，欢迎来到节目。

And now onto the show with Josie. Josie, welcome to the show.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

那么，乔西，我知道你很想聊聊，我知道你在比特币开发领域做了一些工作，还参与了一些指导工作，并且想谈谈比特币开发者教育的过程及其重要性等话题。不过我们先从你个人开始吧，能简单分享一下你进入比特币核心开发的历程吗？

So, Josie, I know you are keen to, chat about, I know you've been doing a bit of work in the Bitcoin development world, doing some mentoring as well, and keen to chat a bit about the process of Bitcoin developer education, why is it important, all of that. But let's let's first start with a little bit about you. Can you tell us a little bit of your journey getting into Bitcoin core development?

好的。我的背景也是我对此话题如此热情的主要原因。在接触比特币前，我已在科技行业工作了约八年，主要从事数据科学和数据工程相关的工作。几年前，我开始从技术角度对比特币产生兴趣，当时正好处于一个职业倦怠期——那份工作已经不太吸引我了。

Yeah. So my background and mostly why I'm so passionate about this topic. So I'd I'd been working in tech for about eight years before I got into Bitcoin, kind of on the data science and and data engineering side of things. A couple years ago, I was getting more interested in Bitcoin from the technical side and then just came to a place where it was like, alright. Let the job I was at wasn't super interesting at the time.

我对比特币越来越着迷，参加了Chaincode的比特币开发研讨会后，就决定：干脆试试全职投入比特币吧。于是我几乎毫无保留地跳了进去，直接开始为比特币核心贡献代码，后来逐渐了解了资助申请流程并获得了资金支持。至今我已工作近两年，第一年资金来自Coinbase，最近则获得了Gemini的资助。

I was becoming increasingly obsessed with Bitcoin, and I took the the chain code Bitcoin development seminar, and then was like, alright. Let's just try this. Let's go full time Bitcoin for a while. So I jumped in kind of without a parachute, just started working and, you know, contributing to CORE directly, and then that turned into learning about the grant process and then getting funding. So I've been working for almost two years now with well, one complete year funded by Coinbase in the first year and then most recently with a grant from Gemini.

这就是我对此话题兴趣的由来——刚开始时我对如何进入比特币核心开发一无所知，而这些资源对我帮助极大。所以我想确保其他人也知道这些资源的存在及使用方法。

So that's kind of where my interest in this topic comes from is I didn't know anything about getting into Bitcoin core development when I started, and these resources were super helpful for me. So I wanna make sure that everybody else knows that these are out here and how to use them.

你认为这些年开发者的入门体验有所改善吗？

Would you say the developer onboarding has improved over the years?

我觉得是的。特别是这种改善往往呈波浪式——先是许多人集中发力，然后可能进入平静期或新人减少，接着又会出现新一波询问如何参与比特币开发的人潮，这又会促使人们重新关注相关资源。最近两年随着萨尔瓦多等国家对比特币产生兴趣，这种集体协作的态势变得更为明显。

I I would say so. Yeah. Especially and I think it comes in waves where there's a really concerted effort from a lot of people, and then maybe there's a lull or there's not a new a lot of people coming in, then there's a new wave of people coming and asking questions about how to get involved in Bitcoin, then it causes people to look at that stuff again. I think in the last couple years, you've seen this be more of a a concerted focus, especially with things like El Salvador and other countries getting interested in Bitcoin. There's that element of, like, okay.

我们如何吸纳本地开发者人才，让他们参与到比特币及更广泛的比特币生态系统中来？并举例说明。比如当我最初听说这件事时，有个陈科研讨会，但后来出现了toragos.dev——一个专注于萨尔瓦多的平台，还有其他几个。我记得现在还有个专门针对巴西开发者的教育项目。

And how do we also take the local developer talent and get them involved with contributing to Bitcoin in the larger Bitcoin ecosystem? And some examples of that. So you you know, when I first heard about this, there was the Chenco seminar, but since that, you've now had toragos.dev, which is an El Salvador focused one. There's a few others. I think there's now a Brazilian focused developer education.

对，Vintium。没错。

Yeah. Vintium. Yeah.

是的，是的。所以你会发现这类项目如雨后春笋般涌现，这在我看来意味着情况正在改善，或者至少获得了更多关注。

Yep. Yep. So you've seen these things kind of pop up all over the place, which end indicates to me that it is getting better or at least getting more attention.

我记得有段时间融资很困难。现在情况更像是资金充足，但他们在寻找合适水平的人才、能力、资质，或者说积极性。不过考虑到现在处于熊市周期，这种情况可能会像比特币的牛熊周期一样起伏波动，对吧？

And I recall at one point, it was difficult to get funding. And I think nowadays, it's more that there is funding, but it's more they're looking for the right level of talent, the right level of ability, aptitude, let's say, motivation. But, I guess we are in a bit of a bear cycle right now, so, you know, maybe that can wax and wane just like Bitcoin's bull and bear cycles, doesn't it?

确实。我觉得这有点遗憾。在牛市时，大家手头都有闲钱，有些人就开始随意投资开发者项目。我过去参加资助计划时就遇到过——项目进行到一半，他们突然说‘明年不再续约任何人，因为市场下行，这不再是我们的重点’。但让我对未来乐观的是，现在有更多长期合作伙伴加入，他们说‘我们要长期资助开发者，会更审慎以确保能跨越牛熊周期持续支持’，而不是像牛市时那样。

Yeah. I I think that's the the the somewhat unfortunate part. When when you're in the the bull market, everybody's got extra cash laying around and some of them start just throwing it at like, I will just developer funding. That was kind of my experience in the past where I joined a grant program and then midway through the grant program, they were like, okay, we're not renewing anybody next year because the market's going down and this is no longer a focus for that for us. I think one thing that makes me positive about the future in this is it does feel like there are more long term partners coming in and saying, hey, we're here to fund developers for the long run, and we're going to be a little bit more careful so that we can sustain supporting those developers through bear and bull markets instead of being like, it's a bull market.

‘我们要资助所有人’，结果一到熊市就说‘好吧，资助到期后谁都没钱了’。所以这种更可持续的长期承诺让我感到鼓舞。就像你提到的，现在有更专注的资助团体，比如你刚才说的Ventium。

We're going to fund everybody. And then we go into a bear market, and they're like, oh, okay. Well, nobody's getting money once your grants run out. So that commitment to a more sustainable long term thing is encouraging to me. I think also you you like you mentioned, there's more focused funding groups like I think Ventium is what you said earlier.

他们正在开辟细分领域，明确表示‘我们不会筹款资助所有开发者，但会专门支持巴西开发者，这是我们能专注的领域’。Toragaz也是类似的例子。越多人专注于细分领域，我认为越有助于整个流程的可持续性。

They're kind of carving out a niche. They're saying, okay. We're not gonna raise money and fund all developers, but we are gonna support Brazilian developers, and that's an area that we can kind of focus on. Toragaz, I think, was another example. So the more that people kind of specialize in a niche as well, I think that helps make the process more sustainable.

是的。可以说现在有更多组织在做这件事，而把时钟拨回五、六、七年前，可能只有Blockstream、MIT DCI等少数机构在做。但现在我们有了Chaincode、Brink，人权基金会也在资助开发者。我认为从事这方面工作的组织更多了。但如果我们只思考比特币开发者教育这个概念本身，为什么它如此重要？

Yeah. And it's fair to say there are a lot more organizations now doing this, whereas rewind the clock five, six, seven years, it might have been at that stage Blockstream and maybe MIT DCI and, you know, maybe a few individual things. But now we have this chain code, we have Brink, we have, HRF does some funding of developers as well. So I think there's more organizations doing that. But I guess if we were to just think about the concept of just Bitcoin developer education, why is that important?

我认为重要性体现在几个方面。首先作为开发者，我希望看到更多开发者加入这个生态系统工作。这里的生态系统可以是比特币核心代码、替代实现方案、闪电网络或钱包应用——这个领域有太多需要开发者人才的开源项目。

Yeah. I I think it's important for a couple reasons. Well, the first reason, as a developer, I wanna see more developers coming in and working in the ecosystem. And when I say the ecosystem, can be Bitcoin Core, that can be, alternative implementations, that can be Lightning, that can be wallets. I mean, there's so many open source projects in the space that need a pool of developers.

对我来说开发者教育如此重要的原因在于，这需要经历很长的培养周期。你不可能某天醒来就说‘我有技术背景会编程，现在要转做比特币核心开发或其他生态贡献’——这里的学习曲线相当陡峭。

And I think why developer education is so important to me is there's there's quite a long funnel there. You don't just wake up one day and say, you know, I'm technical. I know how to program. I'm gonna just switch over to Bitcoin Core or whatever in the Bitcoin ecosystem and start making meaningful contributions. There's quite a steep learning curve.

至少我个人深有体会：虽然想参与并成为长期贡献者，但我原本预计要到第二、第三年才能真正做出有意义的贡献。第一年只是熟悉环境、了解运作机制、协助减轻他人工作量；第二年可能开始主导项目；到第三年我才觉得自己算得上成熟开发者。正因为培养周期长，必须保持人才输送管道的畅通——毕竟有人会因生活变故或兴趣减退而退出。

And at least for myself, what I what I felt like I was up against was I wanted to get involved, and I knew that I wanted to be a long term contributor, but I didn't even really expect to see myself making meaningful contributions until year two and three. The first year is kind of just getting your bearings, figuring out how things work, helping ease the workload of others. And then maybe in that second year, you start to take more ownership over projects, take on bigger things. And then in that third year, you know, I I would consider myself like a full swing developer. So because it's such a long funnel, you gotta keep people in that pipeline because people are gonna start, they're gonna fall out because of life circumstances changing or losing interest.

所以持续补充新鲜血液至关重要。即使你的目标不是成为核心开发者或钱包构建者，掌握比特币技术原理也极其重要——哪怕未来从事完全不同的行业，只要需要与比特币交互，这些技术知识就有价值。作为系统用户，提升技术认知对每个人都重要：我们越懂比特币，就越能成为优质用户并积极参与网络交互。

So it's important to have, I think, constantly have that funnel filled so that there are new developers coming into the ecosystem. I think it's also quite important to me, like, even if your goal isn't, I want to be a Bitcoin core contributor, or I want to, you know, build a Bitcoin wallet, just going through the technicals of Bitcoin is super important. Even if you're gonna work in a totally different industry, but you wanna somehow interface with Bitcoin, having that technical knowledge of how it works. And even as users of the system, I think it's important for everybody to be enhancing their technical knowledge. Because the more we understand how Bitcoin works, the better users of the system we are and the more active we are gonna be in in in interacting with the network.

比特币这个系统非常需要用户的主动参与。

Like, Bitcoin is a very it it requires active engagement from the users of the system.

比特币面临的另一个独特挑战是它没有自上而下的管理者，不存在所谓的‘比特币CEO’。这对想要从事比特币开发的人会带来特殊困难吗？

One other challenge with Bitcoin is that there is no top down boss. There's no CEO of Bitcoin. So does that present any special challenges for a person trying to do this Bitcoin development thing?

是的，完全正确。通常我们通过采取高度集权或自上而下的方式来解决这些效率低下的问题。我们在其他开源项目中甚至见过这种情况，那些项目会采用'终身仁慈独裁者'模式。就像，好吧，我们有一个非常强势的开源项目领导者，这个人说的话就是金科玉律，他们基本上决定了项目方向、解决冲突等等。

Yeah. Absolutely. Oftentimes, we solve these inefficiencies through taking a very authoritarian or top down approach. And we we've even seen this in other open source projects, where open source projects will adopt a benevolent dictator for life approach. We'll just be like, okay, we have one, like, very strong leader of the open source project, and what that person, you know, says goes, they kind of define the direction for the project and resolve conflicts and whatnot.

这种模式往往效果很好。当然，这对比特币来说是不可行的。所以我认为这有时会让进展变得非常缓慢，而且我认为这需要那些试图加入和学习的人付出更多努力。因为有时候你只想说：'嘿，直接告诉我该做什么'。

And that tends to work really well. Of course, that doesn't that that's not gonna be tenable for Bitcoin. So I think that thing that can make things very slow sometimes, and it I think it requires more work on the people trying to onboard and learn. Because sometimes you just wanna be like, hey. Just tell me what to do.

比如告诉我该读什么，该做什么工作。但在比特币社区，每个人都会说：'不行，你得自己弄明白，你得自己决定什么是重要的'。

Like, tell me what to read. Tell me what to work on. And then you say that on Bitcoin, and everyone's like, well, no. You have to figure that out for yourself. You have to decide what's important.

你还必须学会如何倡导自己的想法并达成共识。当有项目经理或项目负责人时，你只需要加入然后看看路线图说：'好的，我想做这个'。

And you kinda you have to learn how to advocate and build consensus around your ideas as well. When you have a a product a project manager or someone kind of leading the direction of the project, you just come in and you see, like, alright. What's on the road map? Okay. I'd like to work on that.

但当你接触比特币时，感觉就像：'哇，路线图在哪？我们现在的优先事项清单在哪？'虽然我们确实有一些这样的元素，但实际上更多是：'你觉得什么重要？你想贡献什么？'

You come into something like Bitcoin and it's like, woah. Where's the road map? Where's the where's the list of priorities that we have right now? And though we do have some of some elements of those, it really is more like, well, what do you think is important? What do you wanna contribute?

你认为什么是有意义的？你能说服其他人同意并一起做这件事吗？我认为这也带来了挑战，比如我们如何决定接纳新人？谁来制定权威的学习路径？这些问题都悬而未决，而且我们也不希望比特币开发存在某种主观的'正确方式'。

What do you think will be meaningful? And can you get other people to agree with you and work on something like that? I think it also it can present challenges and even how do we decide to onboard people? Who who decides what, you know, the the authoritative curriculum is? And that's very much up in the air as well and something that we don't want, like, there to be this opinionated way to develop on Bitcoin.

所以我认为这种模式存在合理的理由。但如果你期待更传统的教育体验，那将会很有挑战性。

So in in the I think there's good reasons why it is that way. But if if you're looking for a more traditional education experience, then that's gonna be challenging.

确实。公平地说，这取决于你想在生态系统的哪个领域工作。显然，你提到的一些内容与比特币核心和比特币协议层面的工作最为相关。但如果你只是在一家比特币公司工作，协助他们的钱包和节点部分，那可能更多是遵循典型的结构，对吧？

Right. And to be fair, it might vary depending on what area of the ecosystem you wanna work on. Obviously, some of the stuff you're mentioning is most relevant with Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin protocol level work. But if you're just working in some Bitcoin company and you're just helping as part of their wallet and their node and that that part might be a little bit more having a typical structure. Right?

你知道，在这样的工作环境中，可能会有工程经理或首席技术官这类自上而下的领导架构，至少在这种情境下是存在的。他们可能有自己的培养路径让你遵循，也许这就是现状。所以你能稍微评论下你提到的课程理念吗？类似这样的体系现在存在吗？是Chaincode的课程吗？还是其他机构的？

You're working you know, there might be an engineering manager or a CTO and that kind of top down leadership, at least in that context, maybe that exists there and that they might have their own pathway that they send you through and maybe, you know, that's that's what it is. So maybe you could just comment a little bit on the you you you mentioned the curriculum idea as well. So does something kind of like that exist today? Is it Chaincode's curriculum? Is it somebody else?

是阅读Andreas的《精通比特币》还是Kalle Rosenbaum的《深入理解比特币》？你认为要成为比特币开发者，需要学习或经历哪些关键内容？

Is it reading, you know, Mastering Bitcoin by Andreas or Grocking Bitcoin by Kalle Rosenbaum? Like, what's what's what would you say is some of the key things that you need to learn or go through to be a Bitcoin developer?

是的。目前《精通比特币》仍然是黄金标准。我认为任何尝试在比特币技术领域做点事情的人至少都接触过这本书。我想特别强调的是Chaincode举办的比特币协议开发研讨会，那是我第一次接触比特币协议编程。

Yeah. I mean, so far, the the mastering Bitcoin continues to be the gold standard. I think anyone who's ever tried to do anything in a technical sense on Bitcoin has at least encountered that book. I think I think, you know, the one I like to highlight is is the Bitcoin protocol development seminar by Chaincode. That was my first exposure to the Bitcoin, like programming on the Bitcoin protocol.

我读完《精通比特币》后参加了Chaincode研讨会。这个研讨会的优秀之处在于，他们从一开始就开源了所有材料和使用模式，初衷并非要求每个人都必须参加Chaincode研讨会才能从事比特币开发——这正是他们想避免的。相反，他们提供了一份精心筛选的资源列表，将其组织成半结构化的六周课程。你可以参加他们的项目，也可以自行利用这些材料开展学习。

So I had read Mastering Bitcoin, then went through the the Chaincode seminar. And I think that the the Chaincode seminar is really good in that from the beginning, they open sourced all of that material and open sourced the model that they were using to run those with the hope that it's not that everyone should go through the chain code seminar before they wanna work on Bitcoin, and that's something they wanted to avoid. Instead, it's here's a list of great resources that we've curated. We've put it into a semi structured six week program. You can join ours, or you can pick this up and run with it on your own.

令人兴奋的是，我看到很多人以Chaincode研讨会为起点开展自己的项目。我自己在参加完研讨会后也这么做过——召集了一群对比特币技术感兴趣、经常向我提问的朋友。与其分别回答五个人相同的问题，我提议：'你们何不一起学习Chaincode材料？我们每周聚会讨论，大致遵循原课程形式。'最终其中一两个人坚持下来，有的进入了比特币公司工作，有的开始贡献代码。

And that's been exciting to see where people have used the Chaincode seminar as kind of a launching point for their own programs. It's something, like, I I also did myself after I had gone through the Chaincode seminar and got together a bunch of friends who were technical and, like, asking me a lot of questions about Bitcoin and and kind of interested in getting involved or just learning more. And instead of answering the same question five different times with five different people, I was like, why don't you guys all just get together, go through this Chencode material? We'll follow loosely the format where we'll meet once a week and we'll discuss. And I think, like, from that, one or two of them actually have stuck around and either moved into working from working for Bitcoin companies or contributing.

因此在我看来，这就是黄金标准：这里有个优质课程供你入门，可根据需求调整，Chaincode并未设限——他们积极鼓励人们使用这套体系。这种模式既保证了质量，又规避了'必须通过某个门槛才能入门'的风险。

So that is to me kind of the gold standard of there here's this great curriculum you can start with. You can tailor it to your needs. It's not really gatekept by chain code. They they actively encourage people to pick it up and use it. And that kind of the the the quality is good, and it also kind of gets around that risk of like, okay.

嗯，如果你想从事比特币相关的工作，每个人都得通过Chaincode。

Well, everyone has to go through Chaincode if you wanna work on Bitcoin.

没错。我理解有时候会有人提出批评，说在这个领域做任何事都必须经过特定渠道，必须有人指导，否则你就没走对门路，因此不会被接纳，或者说你的改动永远不会被审核、推广和推进，最终只会被边缘化到某个无关紧要的领域。我想这是其中一种批评。你觉得这种说法现在还成立吗？或者这其实是个不公平的批评？

Right. And I understand that that was at sometimes there have been people who've made a criticism saying, oh, it seems like to do anything in this area, you must have gone through this area. You must have been mentored by somebody, and, otherwise, you you haven't come you haven't come through the right gatekeepers, and therefore, you won't be accepted, let's say, or your changes will just not be ever reviewed and promoted and pushed forward and, you you know, you'll just be relegated off into some irrelevant area. I guess that was one of the criticisms. Would you say that's still true or not not a fair criticism?

这确实是我从未经历过的情况。我既没因未走正规渠道受过批评，也从未在与他人合作时听闻过类似暗示。当然这可能是别人的经历，我不能武断否认。但这确实是我从未察觉到的现象，也是我会强烈反对的。

It's something I've never experienced certainly. Both I've never been criticized for not coming through a proper channel, and I've also been working with other people. Never heard or gotten a hint of that. Certainly, that's been someone else's experience, I can't be like, no, you didn't experience that. But it's something I've never gotten a whiff of and something that I would probably call out and push against pretty hard.

另外我认为，通过开放这些材料的设计，Chenkut其实在很好地缓冲这类批评——他们既保留了研讨会渠道（我们投入了大量精力确保其顺利运行），同时也允许任何人自行举办这类研讨会。事实上已经有人这么做了。我希望从NTM等项目中出来的人不会觉得'没获得Chaincode认可，我的工作就无人问津'。

And I also think you know, just by design of making that material available for others, I think Chenkut is doing a good job of hedging that criticism a little bit and saying, like, look, obviously, people can still go through our seminar, and we've put a lot of work into making it run smoothly, But anybody can run these seminars. And it seems like people have been doing that and running those, and I I would hope that the people coming out of NTM and some of these other programs aren't feeling like, oh, I didn't get the chain code approval. So nobody's paying attention to the work I do.

当然。需要澄清的是，我并非在批评Chaincode。我个人也研读过部分材料并受益匪浅，尽管我甚至不是开发者。

Yeah. Of course. And to be clear, I'm not criticizing chain code. I mean, I I've I've looked through some of the material, and I've personally benefited. I'm not even a developer myself.

你知道，我只是想及时了解动态并学习新事物。

I you know, obviously, I'm just trying to stay up to date on what's going on and try to learn about things.

不过明确指出这点很有必要。对吧？我们需要保持警惕，避免招致批评或显得像是在批评。

It's a definite it's a good thing to call out though. Right? Like, we wanna be careful. You know? You want to avoid criticism and the appearance of criticism.

或者说你要避开邪恶及其表象，对吧？你要确保以某种方式运作这件事，这就是为什么开源如此重要，而不是将其据为己有，声称这是我们的项目。因为如果有另一个团队站出来说，我们创造了这个惊人的比特币教育内容，我们会帮助你成为开发者，但你必须通过我们的项目来实现。

Or you wanna avoid evil and the appearance of evil. Right? You wanna make sure that you're running the thing in a way that that's that's why the open sourcing of it is so important than not kind of holding it and saying it's our program. Because if there were another group to come out and be like, we've created this amazing Bitcoin, education content, and we'll we'll help you be a developer. You have to go through our program to do it.

这在我看来是个危险信号。我会想，为什么你不能直接展示你使用的材料呢？如果我们想用你的项目，我们可以选择。如果我们想自己使用也行。所以这些细微差别，我认为对这类事情很重要。

That to me would be a red flag. I'd be like, well, why can't you just show us the material you're using? And if we wanna use your program, we can. If we wanna use it ourselves. So these these little distinctions, I think, are important for stuff like that.

是的。我认为另一个方面是这种观念：举办培训或研讨会是一回事，但让人们看到隧道尽头有光，有某种有偿机会也很重要。我认为这才是真正激发人们兴趣的原因，因为假设你现在是计算机科学专业的学生、开发者或任何类型的学生，你在思考：我的职业道路是什么？我认为重要的是最终要有某种可行的路径。

Yeah. And I think one other area is this notion that it's one thing to have a training or a seminar, but I think it's also important that people see there's a light at the end of the tunnel that there's some kind of paid opportunity. And I think that's what makes people have real interest because you might be a let's say you're a computer science or developer or some kind of student today, and you're looking, okay. What what are my career pathways? I think it's important that there's some kind of viable pathway at the end.

对吧？

Right?

是的，这非常重要。如果学习比特币协议开发这样的大事对你没有切实的好处，哪怕只是更深层次的理解，都很难有动力去承担。但反过来说，这也是很难保证的事情。很难说如果你完成这个项目，就一定能找到工作。

Yeah. That's super important. It's difficult to have the motivation to take on something as big as learning Bitcoin protocol development if if if you don't have some sort of tangible benefit for yourself, even if it's just a deeper understanding of it. The flip side of that is that's not something that's very difficult to guarantee. That's a very difficult thing to say, like, if you go through this program, you're going to get a job for sure.

另外还有一个因素，你当然希望人们做事是有原因的，动机必须来自某处，但必须有一个‘我是因为内在动力才做这件事’的元素。必须有一种‘我想学这个，因为我着迷于此，我想加深理解，无论如何都想找到贡献的方式’的成分。因为有时候隧道尽头的光会非常模糊。如果不知道能否在公司找到工作，或者能否获得资金支持，你如何激励自己继续下去？

And there's also an element of like, you certainly want people who are doing it for a reason and the motivation has to come from somewhere, but there has to be an element of I'm doing this because I'm internally motivated to do it. Like, there there has to be an element of learning this because I want to, because I I I'm fascinated by it. I wanna enrich my understanding. I wanna find a way to contribute no matter what, because sometimes that light at the end of the tunnel is gonna be very unclear. And how are you gonna motivate yourself to keep doing this if it's unclear if you're gonna get a job in a company, or if it's unclear if you're gonna get funding?

我在向人们推荐这些事情时非常谨慎，会说‘你应该看看这个’，但不会说‘听着，如果你完成这个，就一定能找到工作或获得资助’。因为如果那成了你的动机，你会想‘好吧，我要做这个，我要拿资助，我要找工作’，结果完成后什么都没实现，就可能产生沮丧和愤怒，觉得‘我完成了项目却什么都没得到’。而如果我们设定合理的期望，说‘听着，外面确实有工作机会，对闪电网络开发者、比特币开发者、贡献者确实有需求，也有人愿意资助。但你需要付出努力，我们无法保证最终结果’。

And I try to be really careful when I'm, you know, shelling these things to people and being like, should look into this, to not also be like, look, if you go through this, you'll definitely get a job, you'll definitely get a grant. Because then if that becomes your motivation and you're like, alright, cool, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna get a grant, I'm gonna get a job, you go through it and that doesn't materialize, then there can be just frustration and anger and be like, well, you know, I went through the program. Whereas if we set healthy expectations and be like, look, this is there there are job opportunities out there. There's a real need for these things, lightning developers, Bitcoin developers, contributors, and there are people willing to fund and grant. You are gonna have to put in some work here, and we can't guarantee something at the other end of it.

所以你必须深入审视自己，问问自己：即使最终没有成功的保证，我是否有动力坚持下去？

So you gotta look deep in and be like, do I have the motivation to carry myself through this even if there's not a guarantee at the end of it?

是的。我很好奇想听听你看到的瓶颈是什么。比如，在一个人从对比特币开发一无所知到成为有意义的贡献者或担任某种比特币相关角色的过程中，你认为存在哪些瓶颈？

Yep. And so I think I'm curious to hear from you if there are any bottlenecks that you see today. Like, what kind of bottlenecks do you see in terms of that pathway for a person to go from not knowing, you know, Bitcoin development to being a meaningful contributor or working in some kind of Bitcoin role?

是的。我认为有两个主要瓶颈。一个是组织这些研讨会的人。这涉及到组织工作，需要有人负责筛选参与者名单。

Yeah. I I think, you know, two really big bottlenecks I see. One is people running these these seminars. You know, there is a there is an organization component. Someone has to curate a list of participants.

需要有人处理申请，比如从所有表达兴趣的人中筛选。还需要有人负责后勤工作，比如安排每周在Jitsi或Google Meets上开会，分组配对等。Chaincode一直在做这些研讨会工作，现在我们也有其他一些类似项目。但第一个瓶颈是，虽然这个模式设计上可以支持全球各地同时举办多个研讨会使用相同教材，但总要有人来具体组织和处理这些后勤事务。

Someone has to, you know, go through applications and be like, alright, we've got all these people that are expressed interest. Someone needs to run the logistics of like, let's all meet on Jitsi or, you know, Google Meets once a week, here's I'm gonna pair you up in groups and whatever. So Chaincode's been doing that with our seminars and now we have a few of these others that we mentioned. But I think that's the first bottleneck is that this is designed where you could have many, many different seminars using the same course material running all over the world. Concurrently, it just takes someone to run it and do those logistics.

所以这是第一个瓶颈。第二个瓶颈是在另一端：有哪些公司在招聘？哪些项目需要贡献者？现在我们有一大批人在漏斗顶端，但最终要把他们输送到哪里？

So I think that's number one. I think two, on the other end of that on the other side of that, the the bottleneck is who are the companies that are hiring? Who who are the projects that need contributors? So now we've got a bunch of people in at the top of the funnel. Where do we send them at the end of the funnel?

我们能否满足这些期望？第三个可能永远存在的瓶颈是导师资源。我们是否有愿意与学习者互动交流的人？能否为他们提供一对一的机会？能否让他们分享自己在项目中认为有价值或无价值的经验？

And can we meet those expectations? Maybe third and and and one that I think is always gonna be a problem is just mentorship. Like, do we have people that are kind of engaging with people who are learning and growing? Do we have a chance for them to meet one on one? Do you have a chance for people to kind of get share their experience of what's worthwhile for them in the project and not?

我知道在核心开发组和其他一些项目中确实有自愿担任导师的人，但这往往成为瓶颈，因为我们手头都有无数工作要做，再要求别人承担这项可能很耗时的额外任务确实很难。

And there have been I I know this happens in core and and and a few other projects. There have been people who will volunteer to mentor, but that oftentimes ends up being a bottleneck because we've all got a million and one things that we're working on, And then, you know, asking someone to add this additional thing that can be really intensive is a difficult ask.

说到比特币核心的入门指南，我记得有个有趣的网站资源，0bc.256k1.dev，它提供了相当深入的内容，详细介绍了整个流程。你能给我们讲讲这个网站吗？

And so when it comes to onboarding to Bitcoin Core, I know there was an interesting website and resource. It's 0bc.256k1.dev, and it's got a it's got a, you know, a full on it's quite a in-depth resource, like, going really into, like, what is the process? Could you tell us a little bit about this site?

是的，这就是《比特币核心入门文档》。过去一年里，Will Clark为此投入了大量精力，我想是和Adam Jonas以及Chaincode的几位同事合作的。初衷是当人们参加比特币协议开发研讨会时，通常只能学到比特币协议的高层概览和运作原理——这固然很好。

Yeah. So this is the onboarding to Bitcoin Core document. This has been Will Clark has been putting a ton of work into this over the past year, I think, in conjunction with Adam Jonas and a few other people from Chaincode. But the the idea is, you know, when you go into the Bitcoin protocol development seminar, you're just kind of learning a high level overview of Bitcoin the protocol and how things work. So that's great.

你理解了整体框架后，作为开发者想要为比特币核心贡献代码时，下一步该去哪里？有人发现这里存在断层——确实缺少对比特币核心代码库的系统性概览：代码有哪些模块？各部分如何协同工作？

You know how everything fits together, but you're a developer and you're ready to start contributing to Bitcoin Core. Where do you go next? And some people had identified that there was a gap there of, like, there really doesn't exist this high level overview of the code base of Bitcoin Core. Like, what are the sections in the code? How do the different modules fit together?

这份文档正是为了解决这个问题。它假设你已经理解比特币协议的工作原理，现在要带你认识比特币核心代码库的运作方式。文档采用高层架构的编排方式，既不需要随代码频繁更新，又能提供足够具体的帮助，比如解析特定类别的代码组织结构。

And so that's what is is being tackled in this document where it's like, okay. It's expected that you kind of understand how Bitcoin, the protocol works. Now do you understand how Bitcoin Core, the code base works? And it's organized as kind of that, like, high level to where it won't need to be updated super often as the code changes, but it's still specific enough to be helpful. So it gets into, like, certain classes and code organization.

这是个相对新的资源。我们计划在当前我参与指导的CALA培训中使用它。预计很多开发者教育项目都会开始采用这份材料。我认为它填补了长期存在的需求——如何从宏观视角理解这些动态组件的协作？毕竟光是比特币核心的代码库就相当复杂。

So this is a relatively new resource. We're planning to use this in the current CALA cohort that I'm helping mentor. I imagine it'll start being incorporated into a lot of other developer education programs. And I think it serves a really like, it it meets a need that has existed for a while of, like, what's the high level view of how all these moving parts work together? Because, like, even just Bitcoin core, the code base is quite complex.

正如你巧妙提及的，比特币其实有多种实现方案，比如libbitcoin、BTCD和Bitcoin等等。

And as you rightly, I guess, allude to, there are multiple implementations of Bitcoin as well. So, you know, there's like libbitcoin and BTCD and Bitcoin and

虽然这份文档的编写方式与比特币核心的组织结构紧密相关，但其中讨论的某些内容同样适用于Bitcoin等其他实现方案。这是个有趣的角度——比特币协议开发并不局限于比特币核心。协议开发研讨会讲授的更多是比特币网络本身的知识，比如挖矿与点对点通信的区别。而这份文档更像是比特币核心客户端的操作手册，但同时会解释诸如共识机制与验证逻辑等概念，以及为何要将这些代码与其他部分分离。因此即使你研究其他实现方案，这份文档依然具有参考价值。

This I think the way this is written, it is, very much tied to how Bitcoin Core is organized, but it's also written in such a way that some of the stuff that it's talking about, it would be valid if you were looking at the Bitcoin or something else like that. And that's an interesting point too because, you know, the Bitcoin protocol development is not specific to Bitcoin Core. What you're learning in the Bitcoin protocol development seminar is more just Bitcoin the network, what are, you know, mining versus peer to peer. This is more this is a handbook to Bitcoin Core, the client, but with kind of points of, you know, what is consensus and validation, and why do we keep that code separate from this over here? So I think it it would still have uses if you're interested in looking at another implementation.

是的。既然你也提到了卡拉，我们该聊聊这个。听众朋友们，我还有一期与阿布·巴克尔合作的节目。不过，乔西，说说你的看法吧。卡拉是什么？你在其中参与哪些工作？

Yeah. And now you mentioned Carla as well, so we should chat about that. Also, listeners, I have an episode with Abu Bakr as well. But, Josie, give us your take. What's Carla and what's your involvement there?

没错，卡拉很棒。去年我见证了首届学员班的启动，整个筹备过程让我非常振奋。自从参加了BPD研讨会后，我一直与比特币社区保持联系，现在通常会以导师身份回归。最近有几个人联系我，询问是否有兴趣指导卡拉新一期学员班。

Yeah. Kala is awesome. I'm I'm I was I saw the first cohort happen last year and was really excited about the effort. And so because I've been involved with the the Bitcoin the BPD seminars ever since taking them, I usually try to pop back in as a mentor. A few people reached out and asked if I'd be interested in helping mentor this next cohort in Kala.

作为导师和讲师，我们更多是引导和辅助学员。就像陈科研讨会那样，这里采用强交互的同伴学习模式——不是单向灌输知识的传统课堂，而是提供全套学习资料（很多源自BPD研讨会，也会用到比特币核心入门指南等资源），大家共同研读讨论后应用到项目中。我们的角色更像是学习互动的协调者。

And so, as mentors and instructors, we're more just there to guide the students and help them, because I think, you call them much like the the the Chenko seminars, it's very much a peer to peer learning style, where we're not setting up a classroom environment where we teach and they listen and there's this one way flow of information. And it's very much, here's all of this material that we need you guys to go through. A lot of it's drawn from the BPD seminar, onboarding to Bitcoin Core will be used as well, other resources. Read this together, discuss it, and then we're gonna apply it to projects. So as a mentor, we're more there to just kind of shepherd that interaction.

具体来说就是通过提问推动学员深入思考，在他们遇到技术难题时答疑解惑。可能该向听众说明下：卡拉是个面向非洲开发者的训练营，学员本身具备大学学历或软件工程从业背景。我们要做的就是把他们培养成能理解并参与比特币开发的工程师，因此采用高强度实践教学，最终目标是让学员能进入比特币公司或参与开源项目。

Ask quest you know, ask questions to kind of push the students to dig more, answer questions when people are stuck, and help unblock them as they go through technical projects. And I guess perhaps I should have mentioned, for the benefit of the listeners, what Kala is. It's a boot camp that's focused on African developers, and they're already technical, and that can mean either university or working in a software engineering position. And this is how do we take you from being a software engineer to a software engineer who understands and can work on Bitcoin. So it's very hands on, very project based, and the goal of Kala is at the end of it, we have them interviewing with Bitcoin companies or contributing to open source projects.

这个项目有很明确的职业转换导向。首届学员班是全脱产制，后来我们发现要求人们辞掉工作来参加（尤其在当前比特币乃至整个科技行业都不景气的情况下）确实压力太大。所以我现在参与的新一期改成了兼职制。

So there there is that very, like, tangible, we want you guys to do this as a transition into a Bitcoin career. I think the first cohort was full time, and then one of the learnings there was, like, that's that's quite an aggressive ask, to ask people to quit their jobs and do this, especially as the market's uncertain, you know, not only in Bitcoin, but in the the the wider tech industry. So this new cohort that I'm a part of is part time.

确实这样更合理。还有其他资源吗？我记得有个叫《比特币开发哲学》的电子书？

Yeah. And that that makes a lot of sense. And so any other resources? I know there was another one called Bitcoin Dev Philosophy. So this is an ebook I've seen.

能给我们简单介绍下这本书的内容吗？

Can you tell us a little bit about this one and what's going on here?

是的。我认为这算是第三个环节。我们有BPD研讨会，概述比特币、网络、协议及其运作原理。还有比特币核心入门，讲解参考客户端和比特币核心的工作原理。然后是比特币哲学，探讨在比特币生态系统中构建产品（无论是全节点、钱包还是其他）时，指导我们决策的原则。当你开始与全球开发者协作参与比特币开发时，这些内容会显得格外有趣。

Yeah. I think this is kind of the third So you have, you know, BPD Seminar, which is an overview of Bitcoin, the network and the protocol and how it works. And you have onboarding to Bitcoin Core, which is how the reference client works, how Bitcoin Core works. Then you have this Bitcoin philosophy, which is kind of the as people who build things in the Bitcoin ecosystem, whether that be full nodes or wallets or whatever, what kind of principles guide our decision making? And there's this is something that's really interesting as you start to interface with devs from all over the world, and we're working on Bitcoin.

我们可能且应该对使用比特币的方式持有多种个人观点——包括我们想如何使用以及世界该如何使用。但作为开发者，我们需要在某些原则上达成共识。当我们在比特币上构建时，应该牢记哪些准则？这些都在比特币哲学文档中有所阐述，涵盖去中心化等核心理念。

We all might have, and we should have, a very diverse set of personal views, both on the use of Bitcoin and, you know, how we wanna use it and how the world should use it. But then there should be some things we can all agree on as developers and kind of have consensus around. So when we come to building on Bitcoin and working on Bitcoin, what are the things to keep in mind? And those are kind of laid out in the Bitcoin philosophy document. So they cover things like, you know, decentralization.

为什么去中心化如此重要？还有免信任机制——为什么我们要在比特币中做出这些权衡？这些原则指导着开发决策。因为作为软件工程师，你本可以采用更中心化或需信任的模型，从而获得更高效率。

What why is that so important? And trustlessness. What why do we make these trade offs in Bitcoin? And that guides development decisions. Because oftentimes, you you can as a software engineer, you can go towards a more centralized or trusted model and end up with something that's far more efficient.

我们构建可信的集中式系统自有其原因。当工程师面临困境时——比如'这太难了，为什么不用简单方法'——这份文档就是共识基础：'不，正因这些比特币原则，我们必须迎难而上'。它涵盖去中心化、隐私等主题，提醒工程师们应在这些原则上达成一致，并将其融入开发项目。

There are reasons why we build trusted centralized systems. So as a software engineer, when you're facing with, like, okay, this is really hard, why are we doing it this way, we could just do it this other way, that document kind of serves as a good starting place for everyone to be like, no, no, no, this is actually super important that we do it the hard way because of these principles in Bitcoin. So that document covers some things like decentralization, privacy, and other topics to kind of be like, these are things that as engineers, we should all kind of have some agreement on and build these principles into the the software and the projects that we do.

可以理解为这些是项目公认的高层目标。如果你的改动违背这些原则，很可能无法获得社区批准，其他比特币用户也不会接受。当然具体执行时会有细节争论——比如不同原则的权衡比例——这就要通过IRC或社交媒体等在线讨论来解决。另外，能否为刚接触比特币开发的听众说明，主要讨论通常在哪里进行？

So it can be understood like these are broadly understood, these are some of the goals of the projects in a way, and that if you if you do something that cuts against those, then that change may not really get approved. The other users and Bitcoiners may not really go with that change, and so therefore, there's not really much point trying to do something that's gonna cut against some of these high level ideas. And, of course, there'll be debate exactly, you know, the the nuances of what how much of this versus that should we have. And I guess that's where the online discussion can go, whether it's IRC or online on social media and so on. So, also, could you outline just for listeners who who maybe if they're new to Bitcoin development, where does most of the discussion take place?

至少在比特币核心开发中，大部分讨论发生在核心开发IRC频道。有人会问为什么用IRC？因为它门槛极低，全球参与者都能轻松加入且不泄露隐私。IRC本身就是相对去中心化的聊天解决方案。

Yeah. So the the the at least in Bitcoin Core, a lot of the discussion is happening in the Bitcoin Core dev IRC channel. And that some people are kind of like, why why IRC? It's a very low bar, and it's it's easy for people to participate from anywhere without compromising privacy and other things like that. And and IRC is is one of the more decentralized chat solutions out there.

因此这是个理想的折中选择。我们每周举行IRC会议专门讨论比特币核心事务。IRC上还有其他开发频道，比如'Bitcoin builds'频道，以前还有个钱包专题频道。

So it's kind of this nice middle ground. So a lot of we have the weekly IRC meeting, which discusses things just particular to Bitcoin Core. There are other channels on on IRC that people will start for development stuff. There's a, like, a Bitcoin builds channel. There's a used to be a wallet channel.

我不确定那个项目是否还在维护。IRC通常是首选的交流平台。此外还有其他群组，比如Slack上的比特币设计频道，适合那些对硬核编程兴趣不大、更侧重设计的人。那里也是许多人聚集协作的地方。

I'm not sure if that's still maintained. So IRC is kind of the first place you go to. There's also other groups. There's the Bitcoin design channel on Slack if you're if you're less on, like, the the hardcore coding and more just on the design side. So that's where a lot of people kind of gather and work there as well.

对于想参与进来的新人，还有比特币核心PR审查俱乐部，同样在IRC上活动。这是个绝佳的入门途径——我们每周聚会一次，氛围非常友好，会有志愿者带领大家审阅比特币的开源PR，并精心设计问题来激发成员思考。

For also new people coming in who are interested in getting involved, there's the Bitcoin Core PR Review Club, which also happens on IRC. And that is a great way to get your feet wet. It's a very noob friendly place where we meet once a week, and someone has volunteered to go through a PR. So they'll pick a PR that's open in Bitcoin. They'll curate some questions to kind of, encourage thought amongst the members.

所有人都会在IRC会议前预审PR，然后聚在一起讨论。这个平台能有效吸引新人参与比特币开发。我最初就是加入比特币核心开发频道，潜水三个月观察交流风格和议题类型。

Everyone will review before the IRC meeting, and then they just get together and chat and discuss it. And it's a place to kind of attract new people and and get them involved with Bitcoin development. So those are kind of the, like, the main areas to get started. When I first got interested in Bitcoin development, I just joined the Bitcoin Core development channel and just lurked for, like, three months. Just listened and kinda got a sense for the communication style and what kind of things were discussed there.

确实。GitHub评论则更聚焦比特币核心项目（虽然也用于其他项目），人们会在那里讨论各类PR和议题。另外还有邮件列表，能否请你谈谈这方面的参与经验及注意事项？

Yeah. Then there's also GitHub commentary, and then now this is more specific to Bitcoin Core, let's say. Although, I mean, the GitHub is used for other projects too, but we'll see people discuss there in GitHub commentary about various pull requests or issues. And then there's also the mailing list as well. So if you could offer a bit of a comment there on any involvement you have there and, you know, what to expect there.

GitHub是技术历史的宝库，PR和议题中有大量优质讨论。我们备份了所有元数据以防迁移之需——那里沉淀了极其丰富的历史资料。当你有新想法时，查阅已合并/关闭的PR和议题总能发现宝藏，甚至能找到2014年之前开发者们深思熟虑的辩论记录。

Yeah. So GitHub's a great place for technical just history, a lot of really good discussions that have happened on PRs and in issues. We we back up all of that metadata from GitHub, so in the event we ever had to move, we could take it there with us because there's there there is such a rich history there. Oftentimes, when you're thinking of something that you wanna do or an idea you've had, one of the best places to go is go look at PRs that have been merged or closed and look at GitHub issues, and you'll often find discussions going all the way back to, you know, 2014 or older with, like, really well thought out arguments between different developers on these things. So that that that's an amazing resource.

邮件列表则适合长篇论述。当你想获得比特币生态系统的广泛反馈时——不仅限于核心开发组——可以在这里发布详细观点，其他人也会用深度回复进行互动。

You you also mentioned the the mailing list, which is great for more long form posts. So you have an idea or something, and you want to get wider feedback from the Bitcoin ecosystem. And, you know, with Bitcoin mailing list, you're not even really limiting yourself to just Bitcoin Core. So there you're gonna get feedback from everybody involved in developing on Bitcoin. And then that way, you can kind of craft a much longer form, more thoughtful post, and then people can respond in longer form, which is really great.

常见做法是先在邮件列表发起大规模意见征集，再将精华内容提炼成具体的PR或议题。你刚提到还有...我们说了邮件列表和GitHub。

So oftentimes, you'll see people kind of, like, submit something to the mailing list for this really big feedback session, which then gets distilled down into opening a PR or an issue or something a little bit more specific. And you mentioned one more. Mail we said mailing list, GitHub.

我想大概就是这些。我记得有GitHub的问题追踪、拉取请求和邮件列表。当然，比特币开发者邮件列表是存在的，还有专门针对闪电网络的开发者邮件列表。那么，能否也聊聊你现在的经历，比如在比特币核心贡献方面，你主要关注哪些工作？

I think I think that was it. I think it was GitHub issues, pull requests, and, mailing list. But, yeah, there's Bitcoin dev mailing list. There is the Lightning dev mailing list as well, obviously, more focused for the Lightning, developers out there. And then, yeah, I guess if we could talk a little bit about your experience as well, like, nowadays with contributing in Bitcoin Core, what kinds of things are you focusing on?

至于我自己，去年我花了很多时间在比特币核心项目上。我把时间大致平分，一半用于代码库的实际工作，比如审查PR和提交自己的贡献。我倾向于专注钱包部分，因为刚开始时另一位开发者给我的建议是：解决自己的痛点。找一个你实际使用的比特币功能模块，这样你会有最强的动力去改进它，同时也能从用户视角出发进行开发。

For my yeah. For myself so I spent a lot of time last year working in Bitcoin Core. I I split that time about half actually working in the repository, so reviewing PRs and adding contributions myself. I tend to focus on the wallet just because when I first started, a piece of advice that I got from another developer was scratch your own itch. Find a part of Bitcoin that you use or that you, yeah, that you actively use because then you're gonna be the most motivated to work on it, and you're gonna have the perspective of a user as a developer.

所以我就想，既然我使用比特币核心钱包，而且有些地方让我觉得不便，何不从那里入手呢？

So I was like, well, I use the Bitcoin Core Wallet, and there are some things about it that annoy me. So why not start there?

然后

And

我逐渐乐在其中，因为钱包看似简单，实则涉及隐私、效率等多方面的复杂问题。所以我专注于此，另一半时间则处理数据相关工作。比如我最近和Chaincode的一位研究员合作，收集内存池数据并进行分析。今年我还计划继续深耕钱包领域，与Rubin Thompson合作无声支付方案，参与代码审查。

then really started to enjoy it because wallets while they sound pretty simple, there's a really complex space there of problems, with implications for privacy and efficiency and a lot of different things. So I focus there, and then in the other half of my time, I work on the data side of things. So I've been working on a project around collecting Mempool data and analyzing that with one of the researchers from Chaincode. Going into this year, I I'm spending also my time in the wallet, working with Rubin Thompson on the silent payments scheme. So helping to review there.

除此之外，我希望能稍微跳出钱包领域，或许更多涉足密码学方向，重新捡起那些生疏的数学知识。

And then beyond that, I think I wanna branch out of the wallet a little bit and maybe get more into the cryptography, dust off all my dusty maths.

对于不太熟悉的人来说，比特币核心有这些不同的功能模块。你能为不了解的听众简单介绍一下吗？

And so for people who aren't familiar, there are these different areas of Bitcoin Core. Could you just explain what those are for people who don't know?

是的。所以，当我们讨论比特币核心的不同领域时，我通常倾向于从模块和代码组织的角度来思考。但其中一些主要领域包括内存池（mempool），这是比特币中可以专注的一个独立领域。从内存池延伸出来的是点对点网络（peer to peer），这里面又有很多不同的细分专业方向，但点对点本身就是一个广泛的分类范畴。

Yeah. So, I mean, when when we talk about the different areas of Bitcoin Core, I tend to generally think of this in terms of modules and code organization. But some of the major areas are so the mempool is one kind of discrete area of Bitcoin that can be focused on. From the mempool, then you have peer to peer. And there's lots of different, you know, sub specializations within peer to peer, but peer to peer is one of those broad categories.

还有钱包模块，这是比特币核心中一个不言自明的组成部分。然后是共识与验证模块，这部分没人敢轻易改动，或者说至少会非常谨慎对待。我也会把构建系统视为独立模块——包括如何构建比特币核心、管理依赖项、确保可复现性等等，这同样是个独特的领域。

You have the wallet, which is kind of a self explanatory module of Bitcoin Core. And then you have consensus and validation, which is a part that nobody wants to touch, or at least touch very carefully. I would also put put the build system as its own module. So how we how we build Bitcoin core, how we manage the dependencies, how we make things reproducible, etcetera. That's kind of its own unique area as well.

最近甚至有人讨论要划分出更细粒度的部分，比如底层网络处理就是近期热议的话题，我可能还遗漏了其他方面。测试也被视为独立模块，包括单元测试框架和功能测试框架。我们有专门持续为这个领域贡献代码的人员。

There's there's been some discussion about even breaking out more granular sections, like low level net processing has been something being discussed recently, and I'm probably missing, others. Testing is kind of considered its own module, the unit test framework and the functional test framework. We have people that kinda just regulate regularly contribute to that area.

稍后节目继续。如果您担心比特币托管安全并想升级防护措施，Unchained Capital能为您提供安心保障。他们的礼宾式入门服务会指导您使用多重签名方案——这能通过消除单点故障显著提升安全性。即使您从未掌握过私钥，Unchained Capital也能寄送硬件设备，通过电话全程指导操作流程。

Back to the show in a moment. If you are worried about your Bitcoin custody and you want to upgrade your security, give yourself that peace of mind, Unchained Capital can help you. They have a concierge onboarding program where they guide you into using multi signature. So this is one of those things where you can dramatically improve your security by removing single points of failure. And Unchained Capital can send you the hardware, they can do a call with you, and walk you through the process even if you have never held your private keys before.

这将极大提升您的安全感。访问Unchained Capital还能使用他们的遗产协议服务，确保您的继承人能继承比特币而非永久丢失访问权。他们提供分步检查清单和全套流程工具。

So this can dramatically improve your peace of mind. If you go to Unchained Capital, they also have an inheritance protocol. So this can help prepare you to make sure that your heirs can receive those coins as opposed to losing access to your Bitcoin. So they have a step by step checklists. They have a range of tools that you can use as part of the process.

感兴趣请访问unchained.com/concierge。最后，您还在用传统区块浏览器吗？我推荐mempool.space，它能帮您精准设定交易手续费：既能实时观察链上动态，又能根据您对交易确认的急迫程度灵活调整费率。在mempool.space上您可以查看内存池状态、区块链数据、闪电网络及节点信息。

So if you're interested in this, go to unchained.com/concierge. And finally, are you still using a plain old Block Explorer? My favorite is mempool dot space. You can use mempool dot space to target your fee for your transactions so that you can keep an eye on what's going on on the blockchain and you can use this to target your fee based on how impatient or how patient you are in getting your transactions confirmed into Bitcoin's blockchain. So on mempool dot space, you can see the Mempool, you can see the blockchain, you can see the Lightning Network, and you can see other Lightning nodes.

我选择闪电通道合作方时也会使用mempool.space的闪电网络浏览器。这是个绝佳工具且支持自托管。企业用户可定制专属内存池实例：添加公司标识、获得优先功能开发支持、更高API调用限额等增值服务。

And I use Mempool dot space's Lightning Explorer as well when I wanna pick somebody to open a Lightning channel with. So it's a really great tool, and you can host it yourself. So for enterprises, mempool dot space offers custom mempool instances. You can have your company's branding. You can get increased access to the team for feature requests, increased API limits, and more.

访问mempool.space/enterprise。现在回到与Josie的节目。明白了。另外，能否为从事比特币开发的人解释一下，首先基本来说，能否简单介绍一下Testnet、Regtest和Signet？能否说明它们是什么，我们为什么使用这些？

Go to mempool.space/enterprise. And now back to the show with Josie. Gotcha. And also, if you could explain for people who are doing Bitcoin development how to like, firstly, basically, if you could explain a little bit about Testnet, Regtest, and Signet. If you could just explain what those are, why do we use those?

好的。先从RegTest开始，这几乎可以说是一个开发环境，就像本地开发环境。你可以启动一条小链并运行节点，但都仅限于你的电脑。所有东西都联网在你的电脑上。所以我们用RegTest来运行功能测试框架。

Yeah. They're so starting with RegTest, that's their very I would almost call it like a a dev environment, like a local dev environment. You can spin up a little chain and you can run nodes, but it's all local to your computer. Everything's networked to your computer. So RegTest test is what we use for running the functional test framework.

实际上我们会启动一个节点，然后用Python封装器管理节点间的交互，模拟不同场景，但都运行在你的本地电脑上。Testnet则稍复杂些，你可以加入一个与其他节点交互的网络。Testnet还包含挖矿功能，你可以获取测试比特币，用这些假币测试各种工作流程。比如我想测试多签设置。

We'll actually spin up a node, and then we have these Python wrappers around it that can manage the interactions between these nodes, simulate different experiences, but it's all local to your computer. Testnet's kind of one step more complicated than that, where you can join a network that you're interacting with other nodes. And I believe there is a mining component to Testnet. You can also get test Bitcoin, and so you can start to run through different workflows all with fake Bitcoin. So, like, I wanna test a multisig setup.

我会在Testnet上启动节点，获取一些测试比特币，发送交易并确保能花费它等等。这就像个游乐场。而比Testnet更正式和精简的版本是Signet。Signet实际上有常规的挖矿功能，可以生成区块。

So I'm gonna spin up a node on Testnet. I'm gonna get some Testnet Bitcoin, and I'm gonna send a transaction, make sure that I can spend it, etcetera. So it's like a playground. And then from Testnet, you have a, like, a a much more formal and cleaned up version, which is Signet. And Signet actually has, like, a a regular mining function, so you can have blocks get mined.

你可以与其他节点交互。最近有些关于建立多个Signet的讨论。比如AJ在Bitcoin acquisition运行的项目（我还没深入研究），这个想法是：如果有潜在的比特币软件，我们可以把它放到测试网里观察交互情况。这对开发者非常重要。

You can interact with other nodes. There's been some discussion recently about, like, having multiple Signet. So I think AJ's been running something in Bitcoin acquisition, which I haven't dug too much into, but that's an idea of, like, if something's a potential software for Bitcoin, we can throw it all into this test net and kind of see how stuff interacts. So this is super important for developers. Right?

比如你在开发某个功能，想看看实际运行效果，就需要在testnet或Signet上测试。但它对比特币普通用户也是绝佳资源。你可以运行节点，尝试发送接收交易、复杂钱包备份恢复等操作，在Signet或Testnet上完成所有测试。它的行为与主网完全一致，但能让你在实际操作主网前建立信心。所以既适合开发者，也适合用户。

Like, you're you're working on something, you wanna see how it works in the wild, so you gotta run it on test net or or Signet. But it's also a amazing resource for people who just use Bitcoin. You can actually run a node, do stuff with sending, receiving transactions, complicated wallet backups, recoveries, and you can do it all on something like Signet or Testnet. It's behaving the same way it would on Mainnet, but you can give yourself that confidence to know what you're doing before you actually run something on Mainnet. So good for developers, but also good for users.

还有个概念叫'新手友好问题'和问题追踪器。你能简单解释一下吗？

There's also this concept of a good first issue and an issue tracker. So can you just explain a bit about that?

是的。在比特币核心项目中，有一个标签系统，当我们遇到问题或有人提出想法时，你可以创建议题并打上标签。比如'新手友好议题'，这是吸引和鼓励新开发者参与的好方法。因为当你开始为开源项目做贡献时，既需要专业知识（对我们来说就是比特币），也需要掌握如何在开源社区工作的通用技能。

Yeah. In Bitcoin Core, there's a label that as we run into stuff or if someone has an idea, you can put an issue and you can put the label on it. This is a good first issue. And that's a way to draw in and encourage new developers to get involved. Because it when when you start contributing to any open source project, there's the subject matter expertise, which in our case is Bitcoin, and then there's just the general knowing how to work in open source expertise.

通常新人刚加入时这两方面都很欠缺。所以我认为'新手友好议题'能让人在不需太多比特币知识的情况下，体验开源协作流程。比如你已了解比特币基本原理，这时遇到一个简单任务——既不需要深入理解代码库，也不要求对比特币有很深认识。这样你就能专注于学习提PR、获取反馈、保持良好提交规范、撰写清晰说明等流程。

And oftentimes, people have have neither when they first joined. So a good first issue, think, is a way to give someone an opportunity to go through the process of working in open source with something that doesn't require a ton of Bitcoin knowledge. So you can kind of be you you're familiar with how Bitcoin works, you're familiar with the fundamentals, and here's a task that's pretty easy. It's easy to wrap your head around and doesn't require this, like, deep understanding of the code base or even of, like, Bitcoin knowledge. And then that allows you to go through that process of, like, opening a PR, getting feedback, making sure your commit hygiene is really good, writing good descriptive messages, seeing it through.

因为即便是'新手友好议题'也可能开放数月甚至一年。以我自己为例，刚加入时就发现一个被搁置的此类议题。虽然最终花了一年才被合并，但这让我学到了比特币核心的沟通风格、如何请求代码审查、变基操作等宝贵经验。

Because even, like, a good first issue can be open for months or even even a year. I think, you know, for myself, I found a good first issue when I first joined the project, and someone had taken a stab at doing it before and had kind of fallen off, so I found this issue. And it ended up taking a year for it to get merged, but it was like a good exercise for me of of learning, you know, what's the communication style in Bitcoin Core? What how do you kind of ask for review? How do you rebase, etcetera?

因此即使在这些基础议题上，你也能获得大量与比特币无关的流程反馈。虽然保持这类议题的持续供给很有挑战，但作为开发者，我们会主动留意：'这个非关键问题我虽然能快速修复，但是否更适合作为教学案例留给新人？'

And so you get a lot of feedback that doesn't have anything to do with Bitcoin even on those good first issues. Something that we're, you know it's it's always difficult to keep that pipeline primed, but as as we as developers, as we work on Bitcoin, I we're trying to keep an eye out for, like, okay. Here's here's a nice easy thing that I could probably fix really quickly. But if instead, if it's not critical, can I make it a good first issue, and can I put it there for somebody else who it wouldn't take me that long to fix it, but it could also be a really great teaching tool for someone else?

明白了。另外我觉得值得讨论的是，John Attack也经常强调这个观点——现在瓶颈在于审阅人力不足。因为大家都想做新贡献，但项目真正需要的是有经验的审阅者对其他人的PR投入时间。

I see. And I think it'll also be interesting to chat a little. I know, John Attack has also been quite vocal about this idea, and I think generally people talk about this idea that it's like there's a bottleneck in terms of how many people are doing review because people want to do a new contribution. But actually what people need or what the project needs is experienced reviewers and review time on other people's full requests.

确实。这是个需要重视的问题。包括我自己在内，很多开发者都有同感：写代码比做代码审查更有成就感，我们本能地更倾向编写新功能。

Yeah. I I mean, it's a great thing to to call attention to. Oftentimes I mean, is true of myself, I'm sure there's other developers that feel the same. It can feel not as rewarding to do something like review. So our inclination is to write new code.

对吧？比如我更想写测试、开发新功能或修复漏洞，看到自己写的代码被合并确实令人满足。但往往真正重要且具有挑战性的工作，其实是代码审查。

Right? Like, I wanna write a test or I wanna write a new feature. I wanna fix a bug, and that's more satisfying. And it's satisfying, you know, to see code that you've written get merged into the code base. But oftentimes, the real work, not only in terms of importance, but in terms of difficulty as well, is review.

这正是我们需要专业人士仔细审查他人编写的代码之处，以确保我们以最佳方式行事，避免引入错误或代码冗余等问题。因此我认为，或许因为有时我们将代码审查视为不那么严肃或回报不高的工作，容易将其推迟。人们会想，好吧，我要为比特币核心做贡献，所以得找点东西来写或修复。而实际上，认真进行彻底的代码审查才是对项目最有帮助的事。话虽如此，就像任何事情一样，我们可以说...

That's where we really need people with expertise scrutinizing the code that other people have written to make sure that we're doing things in the best way, and we're not introducing bugs, or, you know, code cruft or whatever. And so I think because maybe sometimes we think of review as as not as serious of work or it's not as rewarding, it can be easy to put off. You think, okay, I'm gonna contribute to Bitcoin Core, so I'm gonna I gotta find something to write or fix. When instead, really just showing up and doing good thorough review is the thing that's gonna help the project the most. That being said, you know, like anything, we we can say, okay.

项目所有新人都必须参与代码审查。如果你是新人，不要急于提交新的拉取请求（PR）。这同样不是我们期望的。因为如果你有绝妙的想法，且在比特币之外的领域有专长，能做出卓越贡献，我们当然也欢迎。

Well, all new people to the project have to do review. And if you're you're new, don't open new PRs. That's not also yeah. That's also not what we want. Because if if you have this amazing idea, like and you have expertise in this area outside of Bitcoin, and you can come and make an amazing contribution, we would want that as well.

但我觉得要时刻牢记——至少我自己在日常工作中会注意平衡：当我提交需要他人严格审查的PR时，是否也在能力范围内参与他人的代码审查？我训练自己这样思考：深度参与审查能带来巨大收益。当我逐行研究他人PR中的代码，真正思考其意图及与代码库的交互时，即使小型PR我也会留出1-2天审查时间，这让我能深入理解代码逻辑。

But I think it's it's good to keep in mind, at least for myself as as well as I work in the day to day, I try to balance, like, okay, I'm opening PRs, which is really demanding review or asking for review from other people. So am I also balancing that by giving review when I'm able to? So I open PRs, but also look for, okay, there are things that I can help review to help move someone else's project along. One way I've kind of trained myself to think about it as well, and I found this to be true in practice, is I also benefit a ton from doing good thorough review. When I take someone else's PR and code that they've written, and I go through it line by line, and I really think about what is going on here, what are they trying to do, how is it interacting with this part of the code, I'll often give myself one to two days to review even a small PR, because it allows me to really dig into what's happening.

这样做的好处是：我能将学习过程转化为对他人的实质性帮助。在研读代码时，我会记录所有疑问——无论是关于代码库还是作者意图，最终整合成审查意见：『我这样理解，这里为何如此处理？或许可以这样改进』等等。这促使我成为更积极的审查者。

And the benefit there is I'm able to take my own learning and turn it into a deliverable work product to someone else. So as I'm learning about this and digging into the code, I'm taking notes, anything I don't understand either about the code base or what the person's doing, I'm writing questions, and then I can synthesize that into a review and be like, okay, went through this. This was my understanding. I didn't understand, you know, why you were doing this, and I thought maybe you could do it this way, and, you know, etcetera and etcetera. So that's encouraged me to be a more active reviewer.

这相当于为自己预留学习时间，再将所学回馈给他人。项目永远需要这种推拉平衡，因为代码审查其实比编写新代码更耗费精力。所以适当搭配些轻松或有成就感的工作很重要。

It's it's set time aside for myself to learn, and then I turn that learning back into something that can be useful for them. It's always gonna be a push and pull in the project, think, too. Because, you know, doing review can be very exhausting. It's it's in in some ways, it's more taxing, I think, than just sitting down and, like, banging out some new code. So balancing your review with thing also, you know, something a little lighter or something a little bit more rewarding is important.

当然。能否给听众简单描述下作为比特币核心开发者，你典型的工作日常是怎样的？让大家有个直观期待。

Sure. And so can you give listeners just a a taste? What does a day in the life look like for you as a as a Bitcoin core developer just so they get an idea what they could look forward to?

首先每位开发者的工作日常都独一无二——这正是项目的魅力所在。有人去办公室与同事协作，也有人来自世界各地，在不同时段以不同风格工作。我很享受与这样多元化的国际团队共事。

Yeah. The first thing I would say is a a day in the life of one Bitcoin core developer is gonna be as unique and and different from a day in the life of another. And that's a cool feature of the project to me. You know, we have we have some people that work on Bitcoin Core, and they go into an office with coworkers. We have other people, you know, coming in from all over the world at various hours, different working styles, and that's something I enjoy working with that really diverse and international group of people.

但对我来说，通常是这样开始的：我醒来后先浏览IRC频道，看看有没有遗漏什么。你们还有个方便的GitHub机器人，会在PR开启和关闭时发布到IRC频道。这就像是一个信息流，让我知道有哪些新动态？有什么特别吸引我的吗？之后我通常会往待审清单里加几项，比如'这个看起来很棒'，或是'这部分代码我有想法，想看看具体进展'。

But for me, it it usually starts with, you know, I wake up, try to read through the IRC channel to see if there's anything I've missed. You also have a a handy little GitHub bot that posts in the IRC channel when PRs are open and closed. So that's kind of a way to see the feed of, like, what's coming in? Does anything strike me as super interesting? From there, I'll usually add a few things to a review to do list, like, oh, that looks really cool, or that's a part of the code base that, you know, I have an opinion about, so I kinda wanna see what's going on here.

如果我手上有未处理的PR，接下来就会查看是否有人给我反馈？需要处理什么问题？是否需要rebase操作？还有没有未完成的事项？处理完核心部分的工作后，就可以继续其他事情了。

If I have any open PRs, that's the next thing I'll look at is, has anyone given me feedback? Is there anything to address? Are there do I need to rebase or whatever? Do I have any outstanding to dos on this? And then, you know, after spending some time in Core, then it's okay.

除了核心项目，我现在还有其他在进行的项目吗？需要分配时间给它们。我发现有个上司其实有很多好处，有人告诉你该做什么也很有帮助。作为贡献者，我经常面临的挑战是：早上醒来要自我激励，寻找有价值的工作，并说服自己这确实有价值。因为独立贡献者没人会告诉你'这才是你该做的'。

Are there any other projects that I'm working on right now outside of Core? And and devoting time to that. The interesting thing I found is there there's there's a lot of benefits to having a boss, and there's a lot of benefits to going into work and having someone tell you what to do. So oftentimes, the struggle I find as as a contributor is waking up in the morning and motivating myself to do something, finding something to do that is valuable, convincing myself that it is valuable work. Because as independent contributors, there there's not really anybody telling us, you know, this is what you this is what you should be working on.

'这才是最高优先级，别管其他事情'。所以需要管理自己的动力，甚至是自己的'冲刺计划'——想完成什么目标？有时还要应对自我怀疑：'可能只有我对这个感兴趣'。

This is your highest priority. Don't work on that other stuff. Work on this instead. So managing your motivation and even, you know, your own sprint, if you will, of, like, what do I wanna accomplish? And sometimes dealing with the doubt of, like, I I I maybe I'm the only one that's interested in this.

因此我另一个关注点是尽可能多地与他人互动。可以通过IRC交流，或是直接问开发者'能不能快速开个Zoom会议讨论下？'。参加技术会议也很重要，能让你感觉更融入社区，把握生态系统的脉搏——看看大家都在推动哪些'大石头'。

So I think another thing that I try to focus on is interacting with other people as as much as I can. And that can be interactions on IRC. That can be just asking another developer that, know, hey. Can we hop on a Zoom call real quick and chat through something? Or also attending technical conferences so that you do feel like you're a little bit more connected and you can get the pulse of the ecosystem of, like, what what are the big rocks that people are moving.

明白了。我很好奇你对比特币未来发展有什么期待？比如更注重隐私性，还是更关注可扩展性？有没有特别希望实现的高层理念？

Yeah. I see. So I'm also curious if if you have any views on what do you want to see come to Bitcoin. Like, are you looking for, let's say, more privacy or you're looking for, you know, more scaley scalability? Like, are there any high level ideas that you're really interested to see come to Bitcoin?

对我来说——这也是当初吸引我参与钱包开发的原因——隐私性非常重要。这是个宏大课题，我认为在比特币生态中具有最高优先级。

Yeah. For for me and I think part of this is what drew me to the wallet. Privacy is is really big for me. That that that's a huge area. It's a huge topic, and I think it's of utmost importance in Bitcoin.

在我决定要研究或思考什么时，隐私性通常是最吸引我的因素。钱包中有许多与隐私相关的工作正在进行，比如跨输入签名聚合技术——这是我今年晚些时候想重点研究的，因为它可能为比特币隐私带来重大突破。这种技术能让隐私成为最经济高效的选择，而这两者往往难以兼得。这些方向让我非常兴奋。点对点V2协议虽然不完全是隐私导向，但也涉及隐私。

So as I'm deciding on stuff to work on or think about, usually, the the privacy aspect is is what attracts me to something. So there's a number of things in the wallet, you know, where we're working with privacy. I think cross input signature aggregation is something I wanna look at later in the year because that could be a really big win for privacy in Bitcoin because it's it's a way where we can almost make privacy the the cheapest, most effective option when when those things are oftentimes at odds with each other. So those are things I'm excited about. Peer to peer v two is another it's not really I mean, it it is privacy.

这其中还涉及许多其他方面，但最让我期待的是它能对比特币进行重大升级。钱包相关的隐私技术也极其有趣——不仅关乎隐私，我们还能通过常规比特币脚本和交易实现更多功能。比如迷你脚本、Taproot技术，以及最近涌现的大量提案，如James O'Bearn提出的OpVault等。这些创新理念让我们不仅能安全转账，更能构建更健壮的系统，而这些都将通过钱包开发实现。我认为这对推动比特币普及和扩容至关重要——我们需要让比特币功能更丰富、更防错，降低用户安全使用和托管比特币的知识门槛与复杂设置。

There's a lot of other things involved with it, but that's something I'm excited about and would be a a pretty big upgrade to Bitcoin. But the privacy the the the wallet stuff is also super interesting for me, not just from the privacy, but we can do a lot more just with regular old Bitcoin script and Bitcoin transactions. We've got mini script, we've got taproot, you've seen a lot of proposals recently around covenants and, like, James O'Bearn recently with OpVault. So there's all these cool ideas of, like, outside of just regularly sending and securing our Bitcoin, we can build much more robust systems, and that's all gonna be happening in, like, wallet development. And so that's something I'd really like to see because I think that's key for adoption and and scaling Bitcoin is how can we enable Bitcoin to be more feature rich and more foolproof so that we don't have this very high bar of to safely use Bitcoin and custody Bitcoin, you need to have all of this knowledge and all of this complicated setup.

这些正是最让我振奋的领域：降低使用门槛，让人们更轻松安全地托管比特币，同时提升整个系统的隐私性。

So those are the areas where I I get really excited of, you know, lowering that bar and making Bitcoin easier and safer for people to custody and also improving the privacy of the system.

确实有趣。这个领域常引发社区讨论，比如有人质疑为什么闪电网络是重点，认为持有（HODL）更重要，或者应该优先优化多签使用体验。

Yeah. Interesting. And I think this is an area where, you know, people talk about you see debates even in the community of people saying, well, why is Lightning such a high focus? Isn't it more about HODLing? And we should make multisignature easier to use.

当然，每个人都有自己的优先级。就我个人而言，最希望看到非托管（或者说更准确的说法是'自我托管扩容'）方案的发展。比如Anyprov这样的软分叉提案若能实现，将极大扩展比特币自我托管用户规模。

And then, of you course, everyone has their own different priorities, what they think is important. But, you know, for me, I I would really like to see noncustodial or, let's say, self custodial, or maybe it's a more precise term, self custodial scaling. And so I guess the way I'm seeing it, I'd love to see, something like Anyprov out. You know? And now I know that's a soft fork idea, but that could massively scale the number of people who could self custodially use Bitcoin.

当前规模实在太小了。UTXO账户约8500万，GlassNode估计链上实体数量约3000万，就算取整算4000万——全球80亿人口中占比仅0.5%。

Because, you know, where we are today is, you know, it's tiny. Right? And I've I've mentioned this before, and I'm sure you're you're familiar with these ideas as well. Right? Like, if the UTXO account is something like 85,000,000 or let's say GlassNode has estimated the number of on chain entities at, you know, 30 let's say, you even if we round up, let's say, 40,000,000, if the world is 8,000,000,000, that's half a percent.

这就是当前比特币用户的上限：全球0.5%的人口。而且其中很多人可能只持有50美元左右的比特币，并非主要资产配置。因此我认为，未来五到十年真正需要突破的，是如何大幅提升这个比例。

Like, that's the max. We are half a percent. That's the max number of people who have Bitcoin today. And we know many of those are just kind of like some person who has, like, maybe $50, you know, they're not storing like a significant portion. And so I think that's maybe where the real you know, if we look out over the next five to ten years, what would really move the needle?

我认为这是一个例子。但没错，隐私方面也很重要，比如能否让人们更容易进行币混（coin join），或者更容易实现这种支付联合（pay join）功能——假设你我开通一个通道，双方都向通道注入资金。这样我们就开始打破常规的输入所有权推断模式。这对隐私保护将是革命性的，对吧？

I think that's one example. But, yeah, the privacy aspect as well, like, could it be easier for people to do coin joins or maybe easier for people to do this kind of pay join thing where, let's say, you and I open a channel and we both contribute inputs into that channel. And then we're now we're starting to break we're starting to cut against the common input ownership heuristics. So that would be massive for privacy. Right?

是的，我...你知道，我觉得我们经常把这些事情分门别类。比如'我只关心链上托管'或者'我只专注闪电网络扩容'。

Yeah. I I I you know, I think oftentimes, it's we we put these things in boxes. We're like, okay. Well, I you know, I care about huddling, so I'm only gonna care about on chain custody and whatnot. But but I I care about scaling, so I'm only gonna work on lightning over here.

实际上很多时候这些领域是相互交织的。我对闪电网络超级兴奋，甚至不得不克制自己不要过度投入，因为它太酷了——但人的精力有限。我认为通过托管与闪电网络的结合，能产生许多改善隐私和其他功能的绝妙点子。

And and and a lot of times, these things interplay with each other a lot, actually. I I'm super excited about lightning. I I I kind of have to, like, keep myself from getting more involved with Lightning because I think it's so cool, but I can't you know, you can't focus on both. You have a limited time. But I think there's a lot of really cool ideas of how we can improve privacy and other features by the interplay between custody and Lightning.

当你在闪电网络上开通/关闭通道、转移资金时，我们能获得哪些隐私优势？关于托管问题，你说的很对——不仅是扩容托管规模（这本身已是难题），更要改善托管用户体验。因为...

And so when you're opening channels and closing channels and moving funds through Lightning, what are the privacy benefits we can gain from that? I think you're also right about, like, the the custody thing of not just scaling the custody, which is in itself already a problem. I mean, I think people have talked about this before, like, not everybody's gonna be able to own a UTXO if we do the math and take those numbers out. But even just scaling the like, improving not scaling, but improving the user experience of custody. Because I when

我

I

最初接触比特币时，我很害怕自己掌管资金——这是我人生中第一次真正对自己的钱负责。没有银行，没有信用卡公司，搞砸了就血本无归，连求助对象都没有。

first got into to Bitcoin, I was scared to take control of my own money because you're like, it's the first time in my life I had actually been responsible for my own money. Like, I it wasn't the bank. It wasn't, you know, a credit card company or an app or whatever. It's like, oh, shit. If I if I screw this up, like, I lose my money and there's nobody to talk to.

我认为越是能给用户提供功能丰富的钱包工具，帮助他们建立自主托管的信心，情况就会越好。要正确扩展比特币和闪电网络，必须有人真正持有这些比特币。如果未来只剩下大型闪电节点在运营管理，用户都依赖托管方案，这就背离了比特币的初衷。所以即使在扩容讨论中，链上管理和托管也至关重要——我们要确保是网络的实际参与者在做这些事。

And I think the more that we can give users feature rich wallets and tools to help them to have more confidence in their self custody, that's gonna really improve. I also see, you know, the the interplay between to scale Bitcoin correctly, to scale Lightning correctly, someone's gotta own that Bitcoin. Someone's gotta custody that Bitcoin. And, you know, I think a vision of the future where it's only, you know, major Lightning nodes running and managing, and users are using a mix of custodial solutions on Lightning is is not really the future that I would want for Bitcoin. So, you know, the the custody thing and and the on chain management is important even in the scaling conversation because we wanna make sure that, it's the actual participants of the network that are doing this.

我认为听众可能好奇的另一个领域是你的观点。关于隐私问题，比特币缺乏隐私显然受到很多批评。早期时，可以说如果你在获取和使用比特币时足够谨慎，链上监控技术可能没那么先进。而如今，人们几乎嘲笑在链上实现隐私的想法。你怎么看？

And one other area I think some listeners might be curious, your views. In terms of privacy, there have obviously been a lot of criticisms of Bitcoin's lack of privacy. And I think, you know, in the early days, it it was probably fair to say if you, let's say, were careful about how you acquired your coins, careful to have about how you spent the coins, maybe the the chain surveillance techniques were not as advanced. Whereas today, there's a sense that, you know, people sort of scoff at this idea that you can have privacy on chain. What's your view?

你认为这对大多数人可行吗？他们会都使用CoinJoin和TOR等匿名技术吗？还是说这本质上是个难题，我们在链上隐私方面可能无法取得太大进展？

Do you think that will be feasible for many people to do? Like, are they all just gonna use CoinJoin and TOR and other pseudonymity techniques, or do you see that, like, it's just a fundamentally difficult problem, and we may not make that much progress in terms of on chain privacy?

是的。首先我要说，在数字时代实现隐私本身就是个根本性难题。我对任何声称有银弹解决方案的人都持怀疑态度。仅保护数字身份隐私就几乎是个无解的难题，保护比特币隐私同样困难。

Yeah. I I would say, first and foremost, recognizing privacy in the digital age period is a fundamentally hard problem. And I'm I tend to be skeptical and suspicious of anybody who claims they have a silver bullet for it. Just trying to be private with your digital identity is almost an intractable an intractable problem. Trying to be private with your Bitcoin is a difficult problem.

但考虑到问题的难度，我并不准备对比特币放弃希望。虽然很多人批评比特币隐私性极差，但这类批评往往带着'我们有解决方案，只要比特币这样做就能改善'的预设。实际上比特币中很少有这种简单案例，更多时候我们面对的是各种权衡取舍。

I don't think, however, given the difficulty of the problem, I don't think that I'm ready to throw in the towel on Bitcoin. I I know there's a lot of criticism saying, like, you know, the privacy in Bitcoin is terrible. Sometimes it feels like those those those criticisms are presented from a, we have a solution, all you have to do is this, and if Bitcoin just did this, everything would be better. And I I don't think there are many examples of that in Bitcoin. I think a lot of times we're looking at trade offs, and we're looking at, okay, could do this one thing over here, but does that hurt some of the other aspects of Bitcoin?

因此隐私通常与许多其他因素相互制约，使这个领域变得复杂。我对比特币中正在开发的隐私改进方案感到兴奋。有些是容易实现的改进，可以堵住明显不该存在的隐私漏洞。同时我认为用户教育至关重要——必须尽可能让隐私保护成为默认设置，否则要求用户额外操作就很难实现隐私。

So privacy is something that's usually held in tension with a lot of other things, which makes it, a complicated space. I am excited about some of the things that we've been working on in Bitcoin and ideas to improve privacy. I think there's there's some low hanging fruit, and there's some work we can do to make it more private or to stop ways that are just obvious leaks that shouldn't be there. And I also think a big part of privacy is, especially with Bitcoin, is gonna be user education. As much as possible, we have to make privacy the default, because if it's something where we're requiring the user to do it a specific thing that's outside of their flow, then privacy becomes very difficult.

这既是用户教育问题，也需要构建重视隐私的系统架构。隐私将永远是场挑战，每次我们推出新的杀手级隐私功能，总会有人找到破解方法。这种猫鼠游戏会持续下去。我认为比特币的最佳隐私方案可能存在于链上历史与闪电网络相互转换的交互设计中。

So it's it's both a user education, but also creating the system to be opinionated about privacy. It's, you know, I think it's always gonna be a challenge. And and and every time that we come up with some new killer privacy features, someone's gonna come up with a way to break it. And there's always gonna be this cat and mouse game in privacy. I think when I when I look at the best privacy we can have on Bitcoin, I'm excited about a lot of the ideas on the interplay between you have your on chain history and then moving to Lightning and then coming back to on chain.

我们能否在用户实际操作流程中嵌入隐私保护机制？CoinJoin显然也是方向。能否降低参与CoinJoin的门槛和成本？甚至让用户不仅为隐私，也为更便宜的交易费而主动使用CoinJoin？

Is there is there things we can do there that work into the actual user flow that can protect and help the privacy? CoinJoins obviously too. Like, are there ways that we can make CoinJoins easier to participate in? Are there ways that we can make CoinJoins cheaper to participate in such that maybe you wanna do a CoinJoin not just for privacy, but also to send a cheaper transaction.

保存中。

Saving.

是的。而且围绕这些协作协议也有很多想法。你之前提到过PayJoin。但我认为还有一些未被探索的领域，比如当人们说比特币隐私性差时，我们就直接放弃。实际上还有很多工作要做。

Yeah. And and and there's a there's a lot of ideas too around these collaborative protocols. I think you mentioned PayJoin earlier. But there there's I think there's some unexplored territory where when people say, like, oh, privacy is bad on Bitcoin, and, you know, we're just gonna give up. It's like, well, there's a lot of work to do.

对吧？而且改进空间很大，但我们需要有人来研究和解决这个问题。

Right? And and there's a lot of room to improve, but we gotta have people that work on this and study this.

是的。既然你提到了一些容易实现的目标，如果要列举几个比特币隐私方面容易改进的点，你会选哪些？

Yeah. So if you had to as you mentioned, you mentioned some low hanging fruit. So if you had to name, you know, a few low hanging fruit ideas for Bitcoin privacy, what would they be?

对我来说，目前主要关注的是交易构造方面的低垂果实。大约一年半前，我开始研究现有的链上启发式方法，尝试应用并验证其可用性。比如找零检测就是一个方向，对吧？

Yeah. For me, it's it's mostly looking right now, I feel like the low hanging fruit is in just transaction construction. So one of the things I had started with about a year and a half ago was just looking at the on chain heuristics that were out there, trying to apply them and and see if I could use them. So one area, like, change output detection. Right?

我能否区分付款和找零？于是我查阅了维基，编写了一些代码，发现确实有些启发式方法能较容易识别找零输出。比如当存在不同脚本类型时，我对比特币核心钱包和币选择做了调整：如果有一堆混合脚本类型，就尽量一起花费它们，避免在找零输出中暴露不必要的信息。

Can I figure out which is the payment and which is the change? So I pulled up a wiki, wrote some code, and figured out that, yeah, there there there are some heuristics that we can use to pretty easily identify the change output. One of those being when you have, like, different script types. So I made a change to the Bitcoin Core wallet and coin selection that was like, okay. Well, if I have a bunch of mixed script types, let's only try to spend them together so that I don't end up exposing more information than I need to in the change output.

这是其中一个方向。随着深入研究币选择，我发现其中蕴含大量隐私影响和可改进之处。比如核心代码中的Branch and Brown算法试图创建无找零交易，但这需要特定的UTXO池作为支撑。

So that was kind of one area. And as I dug more into coin selection, it was like, oh, there's actually a lot of privacy implications in coin selection and a lot of things that we could probably do. One example, I think, in core is we have the Branch and Brown, which tries to make changeless transactions. Right? But in order to make changeless transactions, you need to have a certain UTXO pool to pull to pull from.

因此，当你的UTXO池拥有一定数量和规模的UTXO时，分支定界算法将更有可能实现无变更交易，这对隐私保护非常有利。在我看来，这里存在一个机遇：既然我们想要无变更交易（因其有利于隐私），我们该如何逐步优化UTXO池的管理，使其更有利于生成无变更交易？目前似乎还没有人积极研究这个方向，但这会是个值得探索的酷炫领域。或许在手续费较低且条件理想时，与其生成一个找零输出，我可以生成四个不同大小的找零输出——这样能提高后续交易实现无变更的概率。我认为仅就钱包的币种选择与交易构建这个领域，就有海量创意可挖掘，关键在于如何确保我们不会泄露超出必要的信息。

So branch and bound is gonna be more able to make a changeless transaction, which is very good for privacy, when your UTXO pool has a certain number of UTXOs and a certain size of UTXOs. So to me, there's an opportunity of, alright, well, if we want changeless transactions, because that's good for privacy, how can we over time make our UTXO pool manage our UTXO pool so that it's conducive to make changeless transactions? Which is, you know, I I don't think anyone's looking at at that right now actively, but that would be a cool area to to kind of research and figure out. Maybe occasionally, if fees are low and it's, you know, ideal to do so, instead of making one change output, I can make four change outputs of different size because then that will help the chances of my subsequent transactions to be changeless. So that, you know, I think there's tons of ideas in that area alone of wallet, coin selection, and transaction construction of how do we make sure that we're not leaking any information more than we need.

此外，我们能否主动出击？能否在交易构建中采取对策来打破已知的启发式规则？这个领域显然还有广阔的研究空间。

And, also, can we also be proactive? And can we take kind of, like, countermeasures in transaction construction to break known heuristics? And that's, you know, plenty of runway in that space, I think.

我明白了。按照你的思路，其中一些方案可能需要更多交互性。这可能正是挑战所在——我也听到人们讨论过，一旦引入交互性，就可能伴随其他风险，比如出现拒绝服务攻击的漏洞，或者有人会假装说‘嘿Josie，给我看看你的UTXO集，我们好协作完成交易’，实则心怀不轨，只是想探查你的持币情况。

I see. And so the way you're seeing it then, maybe some of those ideas would involve more interactivity. And so perhaps that's maybe where some of the challenges, and I've seen people talking about this as well, where once you introduce that interactivity, there can also be other risks like maybe there's now a DOS vector or maybe someone can come to you and say, oh, hey, Josie. Show me your UTXO set so that I can do a collaborative transaction with you. But, actually, I was malicious, and I was just doing that to kind of figure out what your you know, what your coins are.

对吧？这是个相当复杂的领域——人们追求简洁，他们只想展示‘看，这就是我，这是Josie，这是我的比特币地址’。

Right? So there's kind of it's a I I can understand that that being a it's a complicated area because people want simplicity, and they just wanna show, okay. Here here I'm here I am. Here's Josie. Here's my Bitcoin address.

你可以往这个地址付款。当然，使用单一地址并非好习惯，但确实有人这么做。这始终是便捷实用性与隐私保护之间的博弈。

You can pay me to that. Now, of course, single address is not really a good practice, but there are people doing that. And so, you know, it's sort of there's always this interplay there between what's easy and just kind of practical and then what's better for privacy.

确实。我认为要求更多交互、更多用户输入几乎必然导致人们不愿配合。人类天性趋简，总会选择系统中最省力的路径。

Yeah. And it, I think requiring more interaction, requiring more input from the users almost always means that people aren't gonna do it. Right? We're like, human beings, we're pretty simple. We're gonna go for the path of least resistance in the system.

所以对我来说，关键在于如何幕后为用户主动决策？如何让钱包在币种选择上更有主见？虽然有种观点认为应该给用户大量选项和协议选择，但绝大多数人不会使用。我们必须将参与混币的摩擦降到最低，让人们不知不觉就开始使用——这才是实现普及的唯一途径。

And so for me, it's also how can we behind the scenes be making proactive decisions for the user? How can we make the wallet be opinionated about coin selection? Because, you know, there's there's one school of thought, which is like, well, let's just give the user tons of options and and, you know, tons of different protocols that they can interact with, and some people are gonna do that. But the vast majority aren't. So how can we make sure that the the the friction to participate in a coin join is so small that it just kind of people just start doing it without even thinking about it, because that's the only way we're really gonna see that increase.

我们如何让钱包在隐私方面更有主见，使用户无需担忧？他们只需发送比特币，知道钱包正在处理隐私决策。比如单一地址就是个好例子，这也是为什么我一直专注于与Reuben研究静默支付——最简单的做法就是给别人一个比特币地址并重复使用。就像说，嘿，想给我转比特币吗？

How can we make the wallet be more opinionated about privacy so that the user doesn't even have to worry about it? They just send some Bitcoin and know that their wallet is making privacy decisions. Like, the single address is another great example, like, and why I've been focused on on silent payments with Reuben is the easiest thing you can do is just give someone a Bitcoin address and reuse it. Like, be like, hey. You wanna send me Bitcoin?

就用我上次发给你的那个地址。我们都知道这对隐私很不利，但人们图方便还是会这么做。所以，我们越是能提供既便捷又保护隐私的方案，就越能赢得用户。不过，一旦涉及交互性和协议，问题就不只是隐私了，整个领域的复杂性也会激增。

Just, you know, use the one that I sent you last time. And we all know that that's terrible for privacy, but people are gonna do it do it because it's convenient. And so the more that we can make something just as convenient that also preserves privacy, I think is where you win the battle with users. But, yeah, I mean, it's especially when you start talking about interactivity and protocols, then it's not just the privacy, but also the complexity of the space that starts to blow up.

我明白了。或许我们会看到这样的批评：外界观察者，比如有人审视比特币开发者和核心社区时，可能会说——我们总在讨论那些‘总有一天’会实现的东西，但眼下急需解决方案的人怎么办？

I see. Yeah. And maybe we'll see. Like, I think maybe one criticism I could understand from the outside looking in, like, if somebody is looking at the, let's say, the Bitcoin developers and the kind of hardcore Bitcoin community, they could sort of look out and say, well, we're talking about all these things that are kind of, oh, that's someday someday. What what about the people who need it now?

对吧？我觉得这正是我们目前难以给出完美答案的地方。确实如此。

Right? And I think maybe that's where we don't have as good an answer. Right? Yes. Of course.

我可以说：去用CoinJoin，运行全节点，使用混币服务。但问题在于，如果你想真心帮助某人，他们今天要额外付出多少努力才能获得可用的方案，而不是等待所谓的‘某天’？

I can tell that, hey. Get get get a CoinJoin, you know, run talk, you know, do run your own Bitcoin node, use CoinJoin. But I guess that's the question of if you're trying to honestly help somebody, how much extra work do they have to do to get something that works today as opposed to the quote someday?

是啊，这种矛盾总是令人沮丧。我们希望现在就能为所有人服务，但需要有人持续推动才能实现。我常说的起点是：如果想以最私密自主的方式使用比特币，你必须习惯运行全节点。

Yeah. I this is always the the frustration. Right? Like, we we want it to work for everybody today, but then we need people to work on it to get it there. You know, it's where I always start with this is if you wanna use Bitcoin in the most private and sovereign way, you've gotta be comfortable running a node.

这可以说是最基本的起点：先熟悉运行自己的节点并与之交互。对于当下急需的人，恐怕我们只能告诉他们：需要大量阅读学习。毕竟你必须清楚这些工具的工作原理。

And, like, that's kind of the the the first place to start. Get comfortable running your own node, interacting with it. And for the people who need it today, I I unfortunately, I think the best answer we can give them is, like, you've got a lot of reading to do. Right? Like, you're gonna have to know how these tools work.

你必须学会如何有效使用这些工具。这对人们要求很高，这很不幸。但我们能在这方面做得越多越好。而且，越多人使用这些复杂难用的工具，我们就能从他们那里获得更多改进的想法和灵感。这有点像又回到了整个开发者流程的起点。

You're gonna have to learn how to use them effectively. And that's quite a big ask of people, and that's unfortunate. The more we can chip away at that though, the better. And also the more people we can get using the complicated, difficult to use tools, the more ideas and inspiration we get from those people to fix them. So it's kind of like circling back to the whole developer pipeline.

就像，第一步就是使用这些工具并鼓励人们使用它们，运行你的节点，使用混币服务，而使用这些的人最终可能会成为开发者，就像，嘿，就像我使用比特币核心钱包时那样。会觉得有些地方我不喜欢，所以我可以感到沮丧，等待别人做出更好的钱包，或者去挑选别人可能已经做好的钱包，或者我可以参与制作我想用的钱包。我认为这才是关键。如果人们真的关心比特币的隐私，你必须使用比特币。你必须进行交易。

Like, the very first step is using the tools and promoting that people use the tools, running your node, using coin joins, and the people who are using those hopefully end up becoming developers to be like, hey, was use like, I mean, it's very similar to me, using Bitcoin Core Wallet. Be like, there are things about this I don't like, so I can get frustrated and wait for someone to make a better wallet or, you know, go wallet shopping to find someone else who's maybe already made one, or I can get involved with making the wallet that I wanna use. And I think that's the key. Like, if people really care about privacy in Bitcoin, you've gotta use Bitcoin. You've gotta transact.

你必须了解其中的含义。你必须知道这些工具能做什么和不能做什么，而最好的方法就是使用它们。在使用过程中，不要变得愤世嫉俗。就像，这是我们必须要对抗的另一件事，当你使用这些东西时，你会觉得，天啊，它可以变得更好。这很令人沮丧。

You've gotta know what the implications are. You gotta know what the tools are capable of and not capable of, and the best way to do that is to use them. And as you use them, don't get cynical. Like, that that's that's another thing we have to fight against is when you use this stuff and you're like, man, it it could be so much better. It's it's frustrating.

我们永远无法达到理想状态。相反，试着保持乐观，想着，好吧。我们能做些什么来改进？我们能做些什么让它更容易？我能做些什么让自己更轻松，同时又能帮助别人避免同样的困扰？

There's no way we're ever gonna get there. Instead, try to be optimistic about it and be like, okay. What can we do to improve this? What can we do to make this easier? What can I do to make it easier for myself, but also what can I do to help other people avoid the same struggle?

这可能不是最令人满意的答案，但我认为，我们让系统变得更好的方式就是更多地使用它，并将这种沮丧转化为改进的动力。

It's maybe not the most satisfying answer, but, like, it's I think the the the way we make the system better is we use it more, and we take that frustration and we channel it into improvements.

是的。而且，明确一点，我并不想对比特币整体过于批评，因为我说这些的意思是，我们必须现实一点。对吧？比特币在全球仍有这种网络效应。有各种各样的人会进行点对点交易，这很困难。

Yeah. And, yeah, to be clear, I'm not, you know, overly I don't wanna be too critical of Bitcoin overall because I'm saying I'm saying this in the sense that we have to be realistic. Right? And Bitcoin still has this network effect around the world. There are all kinds of people who will trade it peer to peer, and that's difficult.

像那种品牌认知度，那种用户基础，基础设施，稳健性，商家和交易所的数量，以及人们、交易者、教育者、软件和硬件对比特币的支持，简直令人难以置信。所以我认为关键在于认识到这一点，然后看看，好吧。如果有人今天想要隐私，那么隐私方面的一、二、三个关键步骤是什么？然后实际使用这些工具，再决定下一步该怎么做。

Like, that kind of name recognition, that kind of user base, the infrastructure, the robustness, the number of merchants and exchanges and people and, you know, traders and, you know, educators and software and hardware out there for Bitcoin is just incredible. And so I think it's it's about recognizing that and then looking at, okay. Well, what are the okay. What are the kind of the, you know, the one, two, and three key steps for privacy if somebody wants to be private today? And then, you know, actually using these tools and then figuring out where to go from there.

所以约瑟夫，我觉得这里是个不错的结束点。你对大家有什么结束语吗？关于他们为何以及如何应该考虑成为比特币开发者，以及比特币开发者教育的问题。

So I think it's probably a good spot to finish up here, Joseph. You had any closing comments for people about how and why they should look at getting involved as a Bitcoin developer and the education for Bitcoin developers?

结束语。我我我想说，首先也是最重要的，尽可能多地使用比特币，无论你是不是开发者，运行自己的节点，与之互动，了解它能做什么。如果你有技术背景，我相信这会引导你发现某些地方可以改进，或者某些地方不太理想，然后追随这种灵感。使用它，追随灵感，然后利用现有的资源。即使作为用户，也要更多参与正在发生的事情，使用这些工具。

Closing thoughts. I I I would say, first and foremost, start using Bitcoin as much as you can, whether you're a developer or not, running your node, interacting with it, learning what it's capable of. If you are someone with a technical background, I'm sure that will lead you to, oh, this could be better, or this kinda sucks, and just kind of chase that inspiration. Use it, chase the inspiration, and then take advantage of the resources that are out there. And even as a user, get more involved with things that are going on, use the tools.

当你发现某些事情让你感到不舒服或困难，或者你不理解时，深入挖掘它的技术层面。我认为作为比特币使用者，无论我们是要为比特币做贡献还是仅仅使用比特币，我们都应该处于不断学习和理解系统如何运作以及其中的新事物的状态。作为结束语，我总是提醒自己，也试图提醒大家，特别是在回应我们讨论的最后一点时，对比特币持极度批判态度是可以的。作为开发者和用户，我们应该诚实地面对系统实际能做什么。我们应该诚实地认识到局限性在哪里，哪些地方真的很糟糕，因为只有这样我们才能让它变得更好。

And when you find that something is uncomfortable or difficult and you don't understand, dig into the technical side of it. Know, I think as Bitcoiners, whether we're gonna contribute to Bitcoin or just use Bitcoin, we should be in this continual state of learning and understanding how the system works and and the new things in it. And, you know, as a closing thought that I just always remind myself of and try to remind everybody and kind of in response to the last bit of our discussion, it's okay to be super critical of Bitcoin. And as developers and users, we should be we should be honest about what what the system can actually do. We should be honest about where the limitations are, where where things really suck, because that's the way that we're gonna make it all better.

当我们陷入这种想法时，作为用户和开发者，认为比特币的隐私性没问题，用户体验也足够好，你只需要自我教育，这种想法是危险的。作为用户和开发者，保持健康的批判态度是好的。所以，是的，保持批判，同时享受乐趣。

And when we get into this idea you know, when we get into this mode as users and developers that, like, okay, you know, privacy on Bitcoin is fine. It's good enough for user experience on Bitcoin is fine. You just need to educate yourself. That's that that's a dangerous place to be in, and it's it's good to have healthy criticisms both as users and developers. So, yeah, be critical and have fun.

是的。所以，听着，参与进来吧。我会提供链接。听众们，我会在节目笔记中放入所有链接。

Yeah. So, look. Get involved. I will link. So listeners, I'll put in the show notes all the links.

我们会提供Chaincode Labs的研讨会资料。有比特币核心的入门指南，有Kala，有比特币开发哲学，还有各种资源和项目。

So we'll have the Chaincode Labs seminars. There's the onboarding to Bitcoin Core. There's Kala. There's Bitcoin Dev Philosophy. There's all kinds of resources and programs out there.

还有比特币之夏。所有这些都会在节目笔记中。乔西，谢谢你今天和我一起。

There's Summer of Bitcoin. All of that will be in the show notes. Josie, thank you for joining me today.

好的。谢谢邀请我。

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

希望你喜欢这个节目。记得分享给对比特币开发感兴趣的朋友们，你可以在Twitter上找到我@stephan lavera，或者发邮件至stephanlavera@pm.me。感谢收听，我们下次见

I hope you're enjoying the show. Make sure to share this with any friends who are interested in Bitcoin development, and you can find me online at stephan lavera on Twitter or give me an email at stephanlavera@pm.me. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the