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嘿，Trax。
Hey, Trax.
你最近怎么样？
How are you doing?
有点不舒服。
Under the weather.
已经好久了。
It's been a long time.
我都烦透了。
I'm sick of it.
而且，我希望自己能快点恢复正常，不再拖累别人，但这需要很长时间。
And and I wish that I could just be back to my normal self and stop being a drag, and it's taking a long time.
而我已经等得不耐烦了。
And I'm impatient.
给听众们说明一下，Trax已经病了一个多星期了，你没法
For those of you listening, Trax has been sick for over a week, you can't
差不多两周了。
tell by Almost your two weeks.
差不多两周了。
Almost two weeks.
所以我们试着跑得有点太早了。
So, we tried running a bit too early.
她睡得不太好。
She's not sleeping great.
总的来说感觉不太好。
Altogether doesn't feel really good.
嗯，Trax。
Well Trax.
不是我自己。
Not myself.
我们今天的节目是关于睡眠的，我知道你因为生病没睡多少觉。
Our episode today is all about sleep, and I know you haven't been getting much of it because you're sick.
所以这也许是个好话题。
So maybe it's a good topic.
当然。
Sure.
这永远是个好话题。
It's always a good topic.
好的。
Okay.
但在我们深入之前，我想展示一下，虽然没人看得到，但是——
But before we get into it, I just wanna show, and no one can see this, but
我知道。
I know.
我现在喝的这个杯子其实是个旅行杯。
This mug I'm drinking out of is actually a travel mug.
你说到——
You talk about
对。
it Yeah.
有一点。
A little
得给莉莉·诺布尔点个赞。
Gotta give a shout out to Lily Noble.
我来自新罕布什尔州的好朋友，她设计了这些漂亮的杯子，专门适配车里的杯架，方便那些像我一样喜欢用杯子喝咖啡的人，结果发现很多人也喜欢。
My dear friend from New Hampshire, she makes these beautiful mugs that she designed to fit in the cup holder in your car for people who prefer to drink their coffee out of a mug, which is me, and it turns out many other people.
太酷了。
It's so cool.
就是……
It's...
杯口有个小小的旅行杯那样的边，方便你喝。
It has the little travel cup kind of lip at the top that you drink out of,
而且实际上，你自己其实不太喜欢它。
and actually so you don't really like it yourself.
这就是为什么我喜欢在家喝，因为，可以想象，有时候
That's why I like drinking it at home because, as one might imagine, sometimes
你会把咖啡洒在自己身上。
I You do spill on yourself.
我经常把东西洒在自己身上。
I spill things on myself all the time.
到目前为止，我用这个杯子洒过咖啡吗？
Have I spilled my coffee out of this mug yet?
还没有。
I have not.
我敢打赌你永远不会。
I bet you never will.
而且我可能永远不会。
And I probably never will.
我敢打赌你永远不会，而且它也很漂亮，上面有山。
I bet you never will, but also it's pretty, like it has mountains on it.
她是个真正的艺术家。
She is a true artist.
去看看吧。
Go check it out.
太不可思议了。
It's incredible.
那些设计。
Designs.
好的。
Alright.
这是我今天第三杯咖啡了。
Is my third cup of coffee today.
回去睡觉吧。
Back to sleep.
我还能再说点别的吗？
Can I also say something else?
完全同意。
Totally.
我一点味觉都没有。
I have no taste buds.
咖啡一点都不好喝。
Coffee does not even remotely taste good.
什么吃起来都没味道。
Nothing tastes good.
唉。
Ugh.
生病最难受的就是这个。
That's the worst part of being sick.
是最难受的之一。
I mean, one of the one of the worst parts.
绝对排前三。
It's on top three, for sure.
喝不到咖啡的味道确实很难受。
Not being able to taste your coffee is hard.
我早上醒来，都不期待喝第一杯咖啡了。
I wake up in the morning, and I'm not looking forward to my first cup.
那太糟糕了。
That sucks.
真的很让人难过。
It's really sad.
好吧。
Okay.
不过我已经熬过去了。
But I'm done.
我会继续前进。
I'll move on.
这总会结束的。
It will end.
谢谢你的倾听。
Thank you for listening.
我，我很感激，希望你感觉好点，Trax。
I I appreciate hope you feel better, Trax.
是的，谢谢。
Yeah, thank you.
让我们进入这期关于睡眠的节目，因为这是你一直……
Let's get into this episode about sleep because this is something that you've...
这是你和我经常讨论的话题，而且，听众们，你们可能知道也可能不知道，我一直在为此挣扎，因为我有两个小孩。
This is something you and I have talked about a lot, and this is something, listeners, you may or may not know, I've been struggling with because I have two small kids.
我从来没有对我最小的孩子进行过睡眠训练，所以他不会一觉睡到天亮。
Never done sleep training with my youngest, and so he doesn't sleep through the night.
我最近终于不再在夜里给他喂奶了。
I finally recently stopped nursing him in the night.
他已经半岁了，所以看起来是时候了。
He's 0.5, so it seemed time.
大概是时候了。
It's probably time.
对。
Yep.
但是，是啊，所以我不太确定。
But, yeah, so I don't know.
所以睡眠一直是个问题，而且我知道，Trax，我们也聊过你的睡眠问题。
So sleep has been kind of an issue, and I know, Trax, we've talked about sleep for you as well.
当然。
Absolutely.
作为一个年纪较大的女性运动员，睡眠可能是我的最大障碍之一。
An older female athlete, sleep is probably one of my biggest barriers.
好的睡眠可能是我恢复的最大障碍之一。
Good sleep is probably one of my biggest barriers to recovery.
你觉得在睡眠方面，你最挣扎的是什么？
What do you feel like is the thing that you struggle with most when it comes to sleep?
对我来说，现阶段最大的问题就是醒得太早，而且想睡又睡不着。
I would say for me at this stage, it is waking up way earlier than I want to and not being able to fall back asleep.
所以我说的是凌晨四点就醒了，然后一整天都感觉没精神。
So I'm talking in the fours and, you know, then just feeling like I'm dragging because of that.
还有一件事，我就直说了。
And the other thing is I'll just go right in and say...
跟你说点私人的事，我经常夜里出汗，这让我晚上睡不好。
Get personal here and tell you that I have frequent night sweats, and that keeps me awake at night.
所以，这些生理和心理上的影响加在一起，以前我盼着晚上能躺下睡觉，现在反而有点让我焦虑了。
So between the physical and emotional, you know, impact of those, what used to be something I looked forward to, hitting the pillow at night, is now something that gives me a little anxiety.
那肯定不好受。
And that probably doesn't feel good.
而且这可能会让你更难入睡。
And that might make it harder to sleep
如果你……
if you're
一想到要上床睡觉就焦虑。
anxious about going to bed.
没错。
Sure.
这确实没帮助。
Doesn't help.
我已经两年多没睡过整觉了。
I haven't slept through the night tracks in over two years.
我之前在这里分享过这个。
I've shared that on here before.
而且
And
你正处在最艰难的时候。
You're in the thick of it.
说实话，我都是和孩子一起睡的，所以，对吧。
And also, you know, truth be told, like, I sleep with my kids, so Right.
那确实让事情变得更难了。
That totally makes it harder.
不过，我得说，昨晚我从11点40分睡到5点，中间一次都没醒。
But also, I will say, last night, I slept from 11:40 until five with no interruption.
那可真是一大觉啊。
That's a huge night sleep right there.
确实挺大的。
It's big.
非常大。
Huge.
而且我其实直到10点11分30秒才上床。
And I actually didn't get a bed until 10:11 thirty.
不过话说回来，最近总的来说，我其实觉得休息得还不错。
And the thing is, though, by and large, lately, I actually feel fairly rested.
比如，下午不会有一阵特别困的时候。
Like, I don't have a dip in the afternoon where I get really tired.
而且有时候我会喝很多咖啡，但不经常。
And sometimes I drink a lot of coffee, but not often.
我通常喝两到三杯，大概八盎司一杯的咖啡。
I usually drink two to three, like, eight ounce cups of coffee.
但你得在十一点前喝。
But you should have before eleven.
我
I
我正想说十一点前。
was gonna say before eleven.
你不会在下午一两点喝咖啡吧？
You're not drinking So it at one or two in the afternoon?
不会。
No.
我下午完全不喝咖啡。
I don't drink coffee in the afternoon at all.
而且我也没有那种能量下降的感觉，所以我也说不上来。
And I don't have, like, a dip in energy, so I don't know.
我有点好奇
Part of me wonders
是不是你的身体已经习惯了你的作息。
If your body's just gotten used to your schedule.
是我习惯了作息，还是我睡眠充足？
Have I gotten used to my schedule, or am I getting enough sleep?
我不知道。
I don't know.
嗯，也许你没有，但你也让它运转起来了。
Well, maybe you're not, but you're also making it work.
就你目前的情况来说。
For where you are right now.
确实。
That's true.
不过我觉得我睡眠需求一直都比较低。
Though I've always had sort of lower sleep needs, I think.
但也许这也不是真的。
But maybe that's not even true.
嗯，那也有帮助。
Well, that helps as well.
不过就在最近几个月，你开始出去在跑道上努力训练。
But, I mean, just recently in the last few months, you've started to get out there and grind on the trails.
而且你开始找回那种去年年底没有的能量。
And you're starting to feel that energy back that you didn't have at the end of last year.
我觉得你肯定是在睡眠方面把各个环节都安排好了，才能得到足够的休息。
And I feel like you must be putting the pieces together from a sleep perspective to get enough.
睡眠真是……
Sleep is so...
它太奇怪、太让人困惑了，而且关于它的说法太多了。
It's so weird and so confusing, and there's so much out there.
我们之前也聊过，比如睡眠追踪会引发焦虑。我得坦白一下，因为我买了一块鲨鱼计时腕表，经常戴着，但后来我换了一个新的Coros，因为我的旧Coros有点过时了，所以我就戴着它睡觉，又开始追踪睡眠了。
And we talked about it before with, like, sleep tracking and anxiety that can cause, I have to make a confession because I got one of those Shark Chrono watches that I've been wearing a lot, but then I just switched to a new Coros because my other Coros was getting kind of old, I had a new one, and so I've been wearing it at night and tracking my sleep again.
那是什么吸引你又开始这么做的呢？
So what was the pull that brought you back to doing that?
你只是想要那些数据吗？
Did you just want that information?
我不知道。
I don't know.
就像是
It's like
我上瘾了。
I'm addicted to it.
但这也没什么帮助。
But it's also not helpful.
比如，我昨天早上看了它。
Like, I looked at it yesterday morning.
我今天早上也看了，我睡了。
I looked at it this morning, and I slept.
我之前说的那几个时间段里，我一次都没醒。
I did not wake up between the hours that I mentioned.
我睡得特别沉。
I mean, I was out cold.
但手表显示我好像醒了三四次。
But according to my watch, I like woke up three or four times.
对，那只是睡眠不安稳而已。
Yeah, but that's just a restless night's sleep.
但我并没有觉得不安稳。
But I wasn't restless.
你知道那种感觉吧，头一沾枕头，再一睁眼，一看时间，心里想，哇，我刚睡着。
I mean, you know when you hit the pillow and then you get up and you look at the time and you're like, woah, I just fell asleep.
昨晚就是这样。
That was last night.
那就别管手表了。
Then ignore the watch.
把表摘了吧。
Take the watch off.
我知道。
I know.
有点吧。
In part, yeah.
我不
I don't
知道。
know.
我觉得你现在生活中不需要它。
I feel like you don't need it right now in your life.
我不需要它。
I don't need it.
你说得对。
You're right.
我需要，我需要下定决心不再拥有它。
I need to I need to commit to not having it.
或者拥有它，但也不要让它左右你。
Or have it, but also don't let it dictate.
就像，拥有它，但只是把它当作参考，然后告诉自己，好吧，这上面说我醒了，但实际上我感觉棒极了。
Like, have it, but just use it as a reference and be like, okay, this says I woke up, but I actually feel freaking great.
所以我不会去担心它。
So I'm not gonna worry about it.
这就是
You know, that's the
另一件事。
other thing.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我就是觉得睡眠是个很热门的话题。
I just feel like sleep is such a hot issue.
我只想说，其实没那么重要。
I just wanna say, just doesn't matter.
就是说，能睡就睡，睡不着就算了，但别太焦虑。
Just like, sleep when you can, if you can't, don't, but don't stress about it so much.
但是又有各种研究说，如果你睡眠不足或者夜里醒好几次，最后会得痴呆。
But then there's all these studies, you know, if you don't sleep or you wake up multiple times in the night, you're gonna end up with dementia.
或者你也会注意到，如果晚上没睡好，跑步的时候感觉肯定不一样。
Or you notice if you don't get a good night's sleep, obviously, how you feel when you're running.
我们都有过这种经历。
I mean, we've all had that experience.
当然。
Of course.
但我就是一直在想，我们……
But I just keep thinking, we...
比如说，我们是不是太强调睡眠了？
Like, we put too much Emphasis?
把它当成最重要的事情，太强调它了。
Too much emphasis on it as, like, the thing that's important.
它确实重要，但还有很多其他因素。
And it is important, but there's so many other factors.
哦，我有个问题想问你，Trax。
Oh, I have a question for you, Trax.
一般来说，你通常几点睡觉，几点起床？
How on average, like when do you go to sleep and when do you wake up?
因为你之前说你凌晨四点就醒了。
Because you said you woke up, like, four 4AM.
真的吗？
Is that true?
我有一段时间是凌晨四点多起床的。
I had a phase where I was getting up in the fours.
那已经结束了。
That has ended.
一般来说，我大概晚上九点一刻到九点半上床，早上五点半左右醒来。
I would say my average, typically, in bed around 09:15, 09:30, and awake around 05:30.
这大概就是我的……
That would be my...
如果非要给早晚定个时间的话，就是这些了。
If I had to put a a number to the morning and night, those would be it.
Trax，你猜怎么着？
Trax, guess what?
怎么了？
What?
我们的作息时间几乎一模一样。
Our sleep schedule is almost identical.
嗯，那里……
Well, there
没错。
you go.
大约九点十五分睡觉。
To sleep about 09:15.
我通常五点半醒来，不是自愿的，而是因为我十八个月大的孩子开始说，妈妈，出去。
I usually wake up about 05:30, not by choice, but because my 18 old starts saying, mama, out.
妈妈，出去。
Mama, out.
然后他……
And he
我的小脑袋也是这么想的。
That's what my little brain says.
一样。
Same thing.
杰克出去了。
Jack's out.
或者我的膀胱。
Or my bladder.
那是我的膀胱在说话。
That's what my bladder says.
它们都在早上五点半跟我说话。
They all start talking to me 05:30 in the morning.
所以……
So...
好的。
Okay.
所以我是你的儿子。
So I your son.
我有两个小孩跟我说话，而你……
I have two little kids talking to me and you
我的是我的身体部位。
Mine is my body parts.
你的身体部位在叫你起床呢。
Your body parts are telling you to get out of bed.
我没开玩笑。
And I'm not kidding.
这才是最可悲的地方。
That's the sad thing.
不过我还是会醒来的。
But I do wake up.
我大概会醒……
I probably wake up...
如果晚上睡得好，我夜里会醒两次。
On a good night, I wake up twice in the night.
我肯定平均每晚醒两到三次。
I would say my average is two to three times a night for sure.
所以我可能不该抱怨睡眠问题。
So I maybe shouldn't be complaining about sleep.
也许我的睡眠没那么差。
Like, maybe my sleep isn't that bad.
我觉得你不是在抱怨。
I don't think you're complaining.
我觉得你只是意识到睡眠不太稳定。
I think you're just recognizing that it hasn't been very stable.
不过，最近几个晚上我差不多午夜才睡。
Though, the past couple nights I went to sleep at almost midnight.
那对你来说太晚了。
That's way too late for you.
雨
Rain
而且对我来说也太晚了，我知道。
and It's way too late for me, I know.
我在工作，我在工作，你
I was working, I was working You
你有很多事情要忙。
have a lot going on.
一旦过了十点，你知道身体会分泌皮质醇，然后就是
Once you get past 10:00, you know your body gets like a cortisol spike, and it's just
更难入睡。完全同意。
harder to Totally.
入睡。
Go to
然后我就觉得，我可以整晚都不睡觉。
And then I'm like, I can stay awake all night long.
我十八岁了。
I'm 18.
不好意思。
Excuse me.
可怜的Trax。
Poor Trax.
我知道。
I know.
我真是乱糟糟的。
I'm a hot mess.
非常抱歉。
I'm so sorry.
好吧，我就不多说了，直接
Well, I will spare you Just
问问题吧。
bring the question.
够了。
Enough.
我说得够多了。
Enough from me.
好的。
Okay.
所以，给所有听众介绍一下，我们请来了一位睡眠专家，帮我们深入聊聊睡眠、我们的睡眠需求，以及我们应该注意些什么。
So for everyone listening, we are bringing in a sleep expert to help us unpack a little bit about sleep and our sleep needs and what we should be thinking about.
如果你是新听众，你现在收听的是《Still Running》。
If you're new here, you're listening to Still Running.
这是一个面向女性跑者的播客，专门讨论随着年龄增长如何跑步。
This is a podcast for women runners all about running as we age.
主持人是我，阿什莉，还有特拉克丝。
It's hosted by me, Ashley, and Trax.
好了。
Alright.
我们请来了博士。
We're bringing in Doctor.
谢尔比·哈里斯。
Shelby Harris.
她是一位持证临床心理学家，专攻行为睡眠医学。
She is a board certified clinical psychologist who specializes in behavioral sleep medicine.
听起来有点让我紧张，Trax。
Sounds like a It kind of makes me nervous, Trax.
好像她会看着我们，告诉我们全都做错了。
Like she's gonna look at us and tell us we're doing it all wrong.
但她是
But she is one of
美国仅有的几百位行为睡眠医学专家之一。
only a few 100 diplomats in behavioral sleep medicine in The United States.
她还是《女性失眠克服指南》和《儿童睡眠必备指南》的作者。
She's also the author of The Women's Guide to Overcoming Insomnia and The Essential Guide to Children's Sleep.
这两本书都把临床研究转化为实用的、基于证据的指导，帮助那些最受睡眠问题困扰的人。
Both translating clinical research into practical evidence based guidance for the people most affected by sleep problems.
她还是一位母亲，一位受过古典训练的低音提琴手，哇，而且她还跑过马拉松，你觉得她跑过多少次马拉松，Trax？
She's also a mom, a classically trained double bassist, woah, and she's run, how many marathons do you think she's run, Trax?
五次。
Five.
27。
27.
好的。
Okay.
我走了。什么？
I'm leaving What
她还有什么做不到的？
can't she do?
说真的。
Seriously.
说真的。
Seriously.
这个女人是谁？
Who is this woman?
显然，睡眠真的很重要。
Obviously, sleep is really important.
所以我们现在要请来谢尔比·哈里斯医生。
So we're gonna bring in Doctor.
现在请来谢尔比·哈里斯医生。
Shelby Harris now.
Fleet Feet 是《Still Running》的创始赞助商。
Fleet Feet is a founding sponsor of Still Running.
我们很喜欢有 Fleet Feet 作为合作伙伴，因为这个节目很大程度上是在试图更好地理解我们的身体在告诉我们什么。
And we love having Fleet Feet as a partner because so much of the show is about trying to better understand what our bodies are telling us.
有时候这个问题很大很复杂，有时候它始于一个简单的问题，比如：我的鞋子真的适合我的脚吗？
Sometimes that question is big and complicated and sometimes it starts with something as simple as, are my shoes actually right for my feet?
在 Fleet Feet，专业的装备顾问还会使用 Fit ID 三维技术来帮助了解你的脚，并找到适合你运动方式的鞋子。
At Fleet Feet, expert outfitters also use Fit ID three d technology to help understand your feet and find shoes that match the way you move.
Fleet Feet 是找到你下一双跑鞋的最佳去处。
Fleet Feet is the best place to find your next pair of running shoes.
你可以在 fleetfeet.com 找到你当地的 Fleet Feet 店。
You can find your local Fleet Feet at fleetfeet.com.
博士。
Dr.
谢尔比，欢迎来到节目。
Shelby, welcome to the show.
你好吗？
How are you?
谢谢。
Thank you.
哦，谢谢你们邀请我。
Oh, thank you for having me.
我很高兴来到这里。
I'm really happy to be here.
我很好。
I'm good.
有点累，但还不错。
Tired, but good.
我们也挺累的。
We're tired too.
总是很累。
Always tired.
总是很累。
Always tired.
就是事情太多了。
Just a lot.
好，我们想从你在网站上提到的一个话题开始，那就是睡眠问题在三十多岁和五十多岁的时候很少是同一个问题。
Okay, so we're gonna start with something that you have talked about on your website, that sleep is rarely the same problem in your 30s as it is in your 50s.
各种情况会变化，激素也会改变我们睡眠的方式，在所有条件相同的情况下，为什么睡眠会随着年龄增长而变化？
Conditions sort of change and hormones change the way our sleep kind of happens, like all things equal, why does sleep change as we age?
激素变化是其中很大一部分原因，对吧？
So hormonal changes are a big piece of it, right?
我觉得你们更想说的是失眠，入睡困难、半夜醒来之类的问题。
I think what you guys are getting at more so is insomnia, Trouble with falling asleep, up in the middle of the night, that sort of stuff.
所以我们经常看到的情况是，女孩和男孩在青春期之前，睡眠问题的数量是一样的。
So what we see happen a lot is girls and boys, they actually have the same amount of sleep problems are equal for that age until they hit puberty.
一旦女孩开始月经，失眠的比例就会上升。
Once girls start to menstruate, then the rates of insomnia go up more.
原因就是，每个月在月经来临之前，由于雌激素下降和激素的波动变化，有些人会出现更多的失眠。
And the reason being is just before they get their period every month for some people because of the drops in estrogen and the changes and fluctuations, we see more insomnia.
然后怀孕也会严重影响睡眠。
So then we see pregnancy, that can throw off sleep a lot.
还有那些接受生育治疗的人，以及产后，那段时间也挺难熬的，对吧？
We also see it a lot in people who are taking any sort of treatments for fertility, then postpartum, fun times, right?
之后会平稳一段时间，然后就会遇到前 menopause 和 menopause。
And then it evens out for a little while and then we get hit by perimenopause and menopause.
那时候激素的波动真的会引发很多失眠，因为波动大，还有脑子停不下来、夜间出汗、热醒、潮热这些。
And that's when the fluctuations in, in the hormone, in the hormones, that really does impact a lot of insomnia because of the fluctuations, but also racing brain, night sweats, and just like waking up hot, hot flashes.
所以你的意思是，并不是说我们的睡眠需求会随着年龄增长而改变。
So what you're saying, you're not saying that our sleep needs change as we age.
你是说激素会影响我们的睡眠能力。
You're saying that our hormones affect our ability to sleep.
没错，所以我们的睡眠模式会发生变化。
Exactly, so the way that our sleep look changes
明白了。
over Got it.
人们常常认为随着年龄增长，需要的睡眠会少很多，这其实是完全错误的。
People often think you need a lot less sleep as you get older, that's actually totally wrong.
哦。
Oh.
大概少半个小时左右，因人而异。
It's about a half hour less for people, give or take.
但真正改变的是睡眠的深度和质量。
But what changes is the depth and quality of the sleep.
随着年龄增长，睡眠会变得更浅。
It gets lighter as we get older.
所以我们没有那么多那种深度的睡眠。我会遇到一些五十多岁的人，他们说，我想像二十多岁时那样睡得那么沉。
So we we don't have as much of that deep, deep sleep that people will, I'll work with people in their fifties who are like, I want to have deep sleep like I did when I was in my twenties.
我说，从生理上讲，那是不可能的。
I said, physiologically, that doesn't happen.
等等，
Wait,
因为随着年龄增长，身体会因疼痛、上厕所更频繁而更容易醒来。
because as you get older, your body has more awakenings due to pain, having to use the bathroom more.
而且，我们的睡眠阶段划分方式也发生了变化。
Also, the the way that our sleep staging works.
深度睡眠往往是在你成长和修复肌肉损伤的时候。
Deep sleep is when you tend to grow more and repair for muscle damage.
随着年龄增长，我们不再那么需要它了。
We don't need that as much as we get older.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
所以我们不会花那么多时间。
So we don't spend as much.
但问题是，即使你进入前 menopause 和 menopause 阶段，睡眠变浅，可能还会有更多 hot flashes，不是每个人都会有，你可能会在凌晨三点醒来，但这并不意味着你必须接受它。
But here's the thing is that even though when you hit perimenopause and menopause for women, and you have lighter sleep and you have more hot flashes potentially, not for everyone, you might wake up at 3AM, That doesn't mean that you have to accept it, though.
区别在于，你不应该接受这些变化就是你余生必须忍受的，但随着年龄增长，睡眠深度和类型发生变化是正常的。
And that's the difference is that you shouldn't accept that these changes are gonna be what you have to live with for the rest of your life, but it is normal to have changes in the depth and type of sleep that you have as you get older.
人们随着年龄增长，在二十四小时内看起来睡眠量相同。
People that more as they get older, which is in a twenty four hour period, looks like the same amount of sleep.
有趣。
Interesting.
我的...
I mean, my...
我...
I...
我五十多岁了，所以我已经完全过了那个阶段，肯定处于前 menopause 阶段，有 sweats，经常起夜等等。
I'm in my fifties, and so I'm past the whole, you know, I'm in the perimenopause phase for sure with the sweats and getting up a lot and everything.
而且我这周刚好还在跟病毒作斗争，所以我的睡眠现在简直是一团糟。
And I also happen to just be fighting a virus this past week, so my sleep is like a freaking disaster right now.
其实，你正好赶上我状态最差的时候。
Actually, you caught me at the perfect time.
或者也许我……
Or maybe I...
我们时间不够了。
We don't have enough time.
但基本上，我在想这次对话的时候，是的，就是昨晚。
But basically, I I thought about this conversation when I was Yeah.
昨晚我在处理问题，
Last night up, you know, dealing with issue...
发烧之类的。
Fever and stuff like that.
当时是凌晨两点，我就是醒着。
And it was 02:00 in the morning, and I was just awake.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
然后两点、两点半、三点，时间就这么过去了。
And, you know, two, 02:30, 03:00, the clock is rolling along.
所以这只是一个例子，但，嗯，我想在这种情况下我会问，你会起床吗？
And so this is just one example, but, like, I guess I would ask in that situation, do you get up?
你会不会做点什么，换个环境？
Do you do you do something and change the scenery?
你会不会……
Do you do...
比如，我什么都没做，因为我的想法是，如果我起床开始活动，那我就会让它变得有效。
Like, I didn't do anything because my whole mindset is if I get up and start simulating activity, then I'm gonna Make it work.
所以我就躺在那儿，但我确实……
So I just laid there, but I did...
结果我晚上睡得很差。
I just had a terrible night sleep as a result.
所以有不同的看法，对吧？
So there's different ways to look at it, right?
所以，我通常是这样想的：这种情况多久发生一次？
So, the way I always think about it is like, how often is this happening?
如果这是一次性的，或者偶尔发生，那么对于失眠的人来说，睡眠的目标不是完美。
If this is a one off kind of thing, or it happens once in a while, perfect is not the goal when it comes to sleep for insomnia, for people.
真正重要的是，每周至少有五个晚上你对睡眠感到满意。
It's really being content with your sleep at least five nights a
周。
week.
好的。
Okay.
所以，如果你偶尔有一晚睡得不好，虽然有点烦人，但不是常态，那你做的没问题。
So, if you're someone who occasionally has a night here and there, and it's not so bad, I mean, it's annoying when it happens, but it's not a routine, then do, that's fine, what you did.
但如果你注意到这开始变成一种模式，那我们就得想想你晚上脑子里在想什么。
But if you're noticing it becoming a pattern, then we wanna think about what is going on in your brain at night.
你是不是躺在那儿？
Are you lying there?
你是不是……
Are you...
对我来说，关键是你是否感到沮丧？
The the key to me is, are you frustrated?
你是不是躺在那张床上，试图让自己入睡？
Are you trying to make yourself sleepy by laying in that bed?
如果你是这样，我经常说，努力是睡眠的敌人。
If you're doing that, and I say this all the time, is that effort is the enemy of sleep.
所以那时我们会说，起床吧。
So that's when we'll say, get out of bed.
不是……
Not...
人们会说，如果你二十分钟没睡着，就起床。
People will say, if you haven't slept in twenty minutes, get out of bed.
我讨厌这二十分钟，因为它会让你想着时间和钟点。
Hate the twenty minutes because it makes you then think about time and o'clock.
就看你自己什么时候觉得烦躁。
Just look when you're frustrated.
换个地方。
Go somewhere else.
这时候你就该去做点别的事情。
And that's when you would want to do something else.
大家总说，要是我起来了，困意就没了。
And people say it all the time, it's like, if I get up, I'm gonna lose the sleepiness.
但如果你经常这样，你其实是在训练自己醒来后继续陷入思考，那你就得打破这个循环。
But if it's an, if you're having this happen enough, you're training yourself to have that awakening and then just get into the thought process anyways, then you gotta break that.
如果你只是把它当作，好吧，睡不着就是睡不着，而且不是为了找点事让自己困。
And if you just treat it like, okay, sleep s not happening, and it s not about getting up to find something to make you sleepy.
不是说要读本无聊的书，或者坐在黑暗里。
It s not about reading a boring book, or sitting in the dark.
只是找点事打发时间，这样你就不会一直想着、担心自己为什么睡不着。
It s just find something to pass the time so you re not thinking and worrying about why you re not sleeping.
然后等你再次感到困的时候再回到床上。
And then you get back in bed when you're sleepy again.
这就像反复循环一样。
And it's like a rinse and repeat.
但这确实对很多人有帮助。
But it does help a lot of people.
我喜欢这个反复循环的想法。
Like the idea of rinse and repeat.
我喜欢这个。
I like that.
因为，是的。
Because you Yeah.
我可能会这样做，我倾向于起床写个清单，而且我总是喝一杯牛奶，我觉得那是我认为那会帮助我重新入睡，然后我再躺下。
Might have to do I tend to get up and write a list, and I always drink a glass of milk, I think that that's me thinking that's gonna help me go back to sleep, and then I lay back down.
当然，如果有效那就太好了，如果没效，你可能就得再起来。
Sure, and if it works great, and if it doesn't, you might just have to get back up.
问题就在于，当你躺在床上想让自己犯困的时候，如果烦躁和脑子停不下来的想法冒出来，那觉肯定也睡不成。
It's just the train, when you're lying in bed trying to make yourself sleepy, if the frustration, the busy brain builds in, sleep's not gonna happen anyways.
好的。
Okay.
抱歉，你说吧，Trax。
Sorry, go ahead, Trax.
没事。
No, it's okay.
我确实觉得这有点反直觉，因为当时我想，我就躺着不动，安静休息，而且我心里觉得，我这不是在对抗它。
I mean, I definitely, I think it's a little counterintuitive because I was like, I'm just gonna lie here and be quiet and rest, and like, I, in my mind, was like, I'm not fighting this.
我其实是在帮忙。
I'm actually helping.
我在帮自己。
I'm helping myself.
但事实并非如此。
And if it's Which was not the case.
不是。
No.
你知道吗？
You know?
但这就是这个领域的争论点，我们最初讨论的关于离开床的方法，叫做刺激控制。
But that's the debate in the field, is that the original way that we talked about the getting out of bed, it was called stimulus control.
我们当时是这么说的。
That's what we would say.
但很多人，包括我自己，在过去大概十年里，开始对此做了一些调整。
But a lot of people, myself included, over the past maybe ten years, have started to modify that a bit.
我的看法是，如果你只是感到沮丧、焦虑，脑子很忙，那这些情绪不应该在床上。
It's like, I look at it as like, if you're just frustrated, you're anxious, you have a busy brain, that doesn't belong in the bed.
但如果你很放松，只是在休息，那我不介意你留在床上，我不……
But if you're chill and you're just resting, I don't care, you can stay in bed, I don't
真的，除非你不想这样做。
really Unless you don't wanna be doing it.
没错。
Exactly.
好的，那说到另一面，我有两个孩子，一个17岁，一个4岁，顺便说一句，我们是一起睡的，所以就是这样。
Okay, so on the other side of this, I have two little kids, 17 and four years old, who by the way, I co sleep, so there's that.
好的。
Okay.
因为他们太可爱了，我就是……反正，那是另一个故事了。
Because they're just so sweet, I just, anyways, that's a whole another story.
特雷克斯在对我摇头。
Trax is shaking her head at me.
他们最终会独立睡的，但我知道我现在睡眠不足。
They'll get out eventually, but so, I know I'm not getting enough sleep.
医生，我已经两年多没睡过整觉了。
I mean, I haven't slept through the night, Doctor.
谢尔比，两年多了。
Shelby, in over two years.
而且，我看起来还一切正常。
And, I seem to be functioning fine.
我训练，我锻炼，比如，我看到自己跑得更快，我恢复得也不错，但，我真的没问题吗？
You know, I train, I do workouts, like, I see myself get faster, I recover, but like, am I doing fine?
我一直有这种想法，也许如果我突然开始多睡一点，我会觉得，天哪，我完全变成了一个新人。
I keep having this idea that maybe if I started sleeping more all of a sudden, I would feel like, oh my gosh, I'm completely a new person.
好的。
Okay.
但我不知道，我的睡眠质量太差已经太久了。
But I don't know, I mean, my sleep has been absolute shit for so long.
是的。
Yep.
把这个数字搞清楚。
Get this number straight.
这正是我经常对人们说的话，当他们这么说的时候。
This is the thing that I always say to people when they say it exactly this.
当人们睡眠不足时，他们的表现和喝了酒的人差不多。
When people are sleep deprived, they perform similarly to people who are under the influence of alcohol.
当一个人喝了酒时，他们往往意识不到自己已经醉了，尤其是在不是特别特别特别醉的时候。
When someone is under the influence of alcohol, they often do not recognize that they are under, especially when it's like, the, not at the like, super, super, super high levels.
他们自己察觉不到。
They don't recognize it.
所以很多人会酒后开车，因为他们觉得自己没事。
And that's why a lot of people end up driving under the influence because they're like, I'm fine.
睡眠不足的情况也类似。
It's a very similar thing when it comes to sleep deprivation.
因为那成了你的常态和标准，你就不一定能看到影响。
Because that becomes your baseline and your standard that you don't necessarily see the impacts.
但并不是要求每晚都完美。
But it's not about perfect every night.
我无法想象我能做到，即使他们不睡在我床上，我能一觉到天亮，因为有人醒来，脚疼，这就是有两个小孩的现实，但是……
I mean, I don't foresee a world where I do, even if they're not sleeping in the bed that I sleep through the night, because somebody wakes up, their feet hurt, I mean, it's like the reality of having two little kids, but...
哦，对，我经历过。
Oh yeah, I mean, I've been there.
如果你觉得它没影响你，我总会说，嗯，它可能在你没注意到或没看到的地方影响你。
If you don't feel like it's impacting you, I do always say it like, well, it might be impacting you in ways that you don't appreciate or see.
那你……
So what do you...
比如，你对别人有什么建议？
Like, what is your advice for someone?
比如，对我或者那些处于这个阶段的听众，他们一边训练，一边全职工作，晚上还会被吵醒。
Like, and me or listeners who are at this stage where they're they're trying to train, they're working full time, they're getting woken up in the night.
就是……
It's...
你得弄清楚你的优先事项是什么。
You gotta figure out what your priorities are.
这是我们家的价值观，就是一起睡。
And this is something that my family values, to sleep together.
那也没问题。
That's fine too.
你得弄清楚那是什么，然后让其他事情顺其自然。
You gotta figure out what that is, and then just let the other pieces fall from there.
但如果你重视自己的健康，你就是在……
But if you are valuing your health, you are...
像那些长期的东西，而且优先级更高，那可能值得考虑一下。
Like that stuff longer term, and that's kinda higher, then it might be something to consider.
嗯，我会……
Well, and I would...
所以这就……
So then it...
你也是在……
You're also...
你的健康，Ashley，而且你也是一名超耐力运动员。
Your health, Ashley, and also you're an ultra athlete.
所以，是啊，和孩子们依偎在一起是挺好的，但你也想跑一百英里。
So, like, yeah, it's nice to snuggle with the boys, but it's also you wanna be running a 100 miles.
所以，到了某个时候，你得权衡一下。
So, at, like, at some point, you gotta weigh it all out.
说实话，他们各自睡自己房间的时候，我睡得反而更少。
I mean, I was sleeping less when they were in their own spaces, to be honest.
嗯，是啊，这就是为什么我...
Well, yeah, that's why I was
起得更频繁。
getting up more.
但这也是为什么很多人最后选择同睡，更多是出于被动反应，而不是深思熟虑的选择，对吧？
But that's why a lot of people end up co sleeping reactively more so than as a thoughtful choice, right?
所以，我想最后一个跟进的问题是，在这个阶段，关于睡眠，我是不是漏掉了什么大局上的东西？
So, I guess the last follow-up to this is just like, is there something like big picture I'm missing here about sleep at this stage?
比如，有些睡眠被打断是不是很自然，而且不一定会有很大的长期影响？
Like, is it, just natural that there's some amount of broken sleep, and that's not necessarily gonna have a huge long term impact?
我脑子里就会想到痴呆症，对吧？
I mean, my brain goes to dementia, right?
对，你怎么看？
Yeah, what's your thoughts on that?
嗯，你说的这个人生阶段是什么意思？
Well, what do you mean about this stage in life?
你说的这个阶段是指什么？
What do you mean this stage?
对，我想说，其实跟阶段没关系。
Yeah, was gonna say it doesn't really matter what stage.
我想，对，跟阶段没关系。
I guess, yeah, doesn't matter what stage.
就是，对，
Like, yeah,
如果你没有……我现在和那些没有小孩的50岁的人有一样的睡眠问题，所以我想说，我也该担心吗？
if you're not I'm having the same sleep issues as 50 without young children, so I would say, should I be concerned too?
你知道吗？
You know?
对，没错。
Yeah, that's Right.
所以问题在于社会上谈论睡眠的方式，而且有些书——我不会在这里展示，但它们就在我脚边的地上，因为这些书通常是给患者看的——有些书实际上我觉得是在误导人们，让他们更担心自己的睡眠。
So the problem with all of the way that it gets talked about in society, and there are books that I won't show on here, but I have them on my floor because they usually show in the patient, there are books that actually I think gaslight people into worrying about their sleep more.
哦，我完全被误导了。
Oh, I've been thoroughly gaslighted.
对，这可能会变成五个小时的谈话。
Yeah, and that's, I mean, this could be a five hour conversation.
但问题是，那些书以及社会上谈论睡眠的方式，其实应该针对的是：你是不是那种把睡眠当作生活中优先事项的人，还是那种蜡烛两头烧、自己却没意识到的人，你工作太多、训练太多，还有其他一堆问题，就是没把睡眠当回事？
But it's like, the problem is those books, and the way that they talk about in society, it's really, it should be aimed at, are you someone who makes the sleep a priority in your life, or you someone who's burning the candle at both ends and you don't realize, you're working too much, you're training too much, you have all these other issues, that you're not making sleep a priority?
这才是他们应该针对的人群，并且要非常明确地说明这一点。
That's who they should be talking to and making that very clear.
而那些真正失眠、有睡眠问题、或者孩子有睡眠问题的人，他们其实已经把睡眠当作优先事项了，但就是没有好转，然后你还要告诉他们：你就是没把睡眠当回事。
The people who have insomnia, sleep issues, or kids' sleep issues, or whatever, they're making it a priority and it's just not getting better, and then just telling them, well, you're not making it priority.
这只会让他们更糟。
It's just making them worse.
让他们滚蛋。
Making them out.
没错。
Exactly.
所以对于痴呆症，我总这么看：你得想想，生活中有哪些是我能改变、能控制的？
So I always look at it as this, when it comes to the dementia stuff, you have to think about what are the things that I can modify and that I can control in my life?
又有哪些是我可以去寻求治疗的？
And what are the things that I can get treatment for?
而且我们现在有很多很棒的睡眠障碍治疗方法，远不止是“按时上床、按时起床”这么简单。
And we have amazing treatments for many different sleep disorders that are beyond just like, go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time.
如果你这么做了，并且去接受治疗，或者有时候需要用药物——虽然那不是我们的首选——或者你有睡眠呼吸暂停，我们正在处理，那你就得把其他那些担忧都放下。
And if you do that and you're going to that treatment or you're using, sometimes it has to be medication, like that's not our first line approach, or you have sleep apnea and we're working on that, then you have to like put all the other stuff to rest.
因为担心这些，只会让你更睡不着。
Because they're, like worrying about it, it's only gonna make you lose sleep.
所以我总是对病人说，你来了，你在努力，这已经是我们能要求的最多了，让我来替你操心吧。
So what I always say to patients, I'm like, you're here, you're working on it, that's the most we can ask for, let me worry about it for you.
然后就放手吧。
And then just let it go.
但什么都不做也没用。
But doing nothing is not gonna help either.
你会给别人提哪三件最重要的事？
What are like the top three things you would suggest to somebody?
基本上就是睡眠卫生的那些事，比如固定的作息时间，对吧？
The There's top basically sleep hygiene stuff, so consistent sleep wake schedule, right?
我合作过很多运动员，我就说，嗯，那部分就是问题所在。
Getting So up at the same I work with a lot of athletes that I work with, and I'm like, well, that's part of the problem.
但我觉得一致性很重要，然后想想你白天依赖多少咖啡因。
But I think consistency, then thinking about how much are you relying on caffeine during the day.
很多人用的咖啡因比他们意识到的要多。
A lot of people are using more caffeine than they realize.
然后还有其他的睡眠卫生习惯。
And then there's all this, there's all the other sleep hygiene stuff.
但我的第三点建议总是，如果基本睡眠卫生做了两周还是没效果，那就去找睡眠医学专家，因为我们可以提供比基本建议更深入的帮助。
But then I say, like, my third thing is always, if that's not working after two weeks of doing basic sleep hygiene, then go see someone who specializes in sleep medicine because we can help you beyond the basic recommendations.
阿什利，别再说咖啡的事了。
Don't say anything about caffeine, Ashley.
哦，你卡住了。
Oh, you froze.
我什么都没说咖啡的事。
I'm not saying anything about caffeine.
我猜咖啡可能有问题。
I'm guessing there's an issue with caffeine.
我们俩都喝很多
We both drink a
咖啡，我并不反对咖啡。
lot I'm of not against caffeine.
我也喝咖啡。
I drink it too.
这个杯子，是我丈夫给我定做的。
This says, my husband had this made for me.
上面写着：不是为了助眠。
It says not for sleep.
我喝它，也喜欢它，但我也很注意，这里温度有120度。
I drink it, I love it, but I'm also thoughtful, it's 120 here.
对，我通常十一点前喝完咖啡。
Yeah, I usually, I finish my coffee before eleven.
我一般喝三杯，大概三杯吧。
I usually have like three, I usually have three cups, is what I have.
好的。
Okay.
所以那是另一回事。
So that's another thing.
而且它不是用来围攻你的脚的。
And it's not to like gang up on your foot.
围攻没问题。
Gang is fine.
我习惯了，但是，嗯……
I'm used But, to
好的。
okay.
我感觉……
I am feel...
我感觉挺好的。
I feel fine.
我没有睡眠不足的问题。
I don't have problems with being...
睡眠不足的问题。
Not getting enough sleep.
但你是不是也在用咖啡因来掩盖这个问题？
But are you also masking it with caffeine?
所以那又是一杯咖啡。
So that's another coffee.
我喜欢这样，那没问题。
I like That's fine.
也许我应该试试把第二杯和第三杯换成无咖啡因的，看看会怎么样。
Maybe I should try my second and third as decaf and see what happens.
或者你直接从第三杯开始换成无咖啡因的，看看效果。
Or you just start the third one as decaf and just see.
但这也是关键所在。
But that's also the thing.
就像很多人说，哦，我不需要那么多睡眠。
It's like a lot of people who say like, oh, I don't need as much sleep.
他们通常是在用其他东西来弥补睡眠不足的事实。
They're often using other things to like compensate for the fact that they're not sleeping.
所以这只是值得思考的一点。
So it's just something to think about.
回到一致性这个话题，这似乎是睡眠中一个非常关键的潜在因素。
So back to consistency, which seems to be such a key, like undercurrent here with sleep.
比如说，试图通过调整数字来弥补之前的失误，是不是一个错误？
Like, are you making a mistake to try and play with the numbers to try and fix what went wrong?
因为很多时候，我觉得我会想，或者我那天早上5点有比赛，所以现在我应该晚上8点就上床睡觉，即使我并不一定想8点就上床。
Because it's like a lot of times I feel like I will be like, you know, or I had that 5AM race, so now I should probably get to bed in bed by 08:00 even if I'm not necessarily wanting to be in bed by 08:00.
然后我会睡上八到九个小时，但我的WHOOP腕带会说，嗯，你睡得不够规律，所以这对你来说其实并不太好。
And then I'll have eight hours, nine hours of sleep, but my WHOOP band will say, had, well, you weren't consistent, so it really wasn't that great for you.
关键在于一致性，我们发现一致性很重要，而且大约两年前还发表了一篇共识论文专门讨论这个问题。
It's, you know, it's about consistency is the thing that we find that consistency, and there was even a whole consensus paper that came out like two years ago about it.
刚开始的时候，一致性甚至比睡眠时长更重要，也就是你实际睡了多少小时。
Consistency at the beginning is even more important than sleep duration, see the amount of sleep you get.
所以一致性有助于提高睡眠质量。
So consistency helps with quality of sleep.
等你把这一点真正掌握好了之后，再去想办法增加睡眠时间。
And then once you have that under your, like, under your foot really well, then you work on trying to get more.
尽量不要这样做。
Try not to.
偶尔一次没关系。
It's once in a while, fine.
比如打个盹。
Like, take a nap.
那没问题。
That's fine.
但这很容易滑向不好的习惯，然后就……
It's just a slippery slope, that's becomes...
大多数人的问题就在于，他们因为睡过头或者白天太晚小睡，结果晚上反而睡不着了。
That's the problem that most people fall into is they then start having trouble falling asleep because they slept in or took a nap too late in the day.
作息规律就全乱套了。
The patterns get all wonky.
对。
Exactly.
说到规律，我们俩都用过穿戴设备来追踪睡眠。
Speaking of patterns, we have both used wearables to some degree to track our sleep.
我试着不用了，因为我对它太痴迷了，但我发现自己还是会回到那个习惯，而且，一周三个晚上，我的手表都告诉我睡眠质量好或很好，尽管中间有醒来的时候。
I've tried to move away from it because I got super obsessed with it, but I do find myself coming back to that habit, and I mean, three out of three nights of the week, my watch is telling me I had good or great sleep, despite moments of being woken up.
你对穿戴设备怎么看？
What is your position on wearables?
这个问题有两部分。
This is a two part question.
第一部分是，你对用穿戴设备追踪睡眠怎么看？
The first part is, what's your position on wearables to track sleep?
第二，如果你只是短暂醒来一小会儿，这和醒来较长时间有很大区别吗？
And two, if you're just waking up for a very short, brief burst, is that vastly different than waking up for a longer period at a time?
那要看醒来的次数有多少。
It depends how many brief bursts.
总是这样，是的，短暂的醒来更好。
It's always, yes, shorter awakenings are better.
你的阈值是多少？
What's your threshold?
每个人每晚都会醒来四到七次。
Everyone wakes up four to seven times a night.
对，好的。
Yeah, okay.
好的，这正是我好奇的。
Okay, that's what I was curious about,
不记得了。
don't like remember.
那是
That's
实际上，我不喜欢穿戴设备，真的不喜欢。
I actually, I don't like the wearables, I don't.
好吧。
Fine.
它们确实能很好地指出问题，但现实是，对大多数人来说，它们并不会真正改变他们的睡眠习惯，反而会让他们更焦虑。在很长一段时间里，我们不需要追踪器告诉我们睡得怎么样，也能睡得很好。
They're great to like highlight that problem, but the reality is most people, it doesn't actually change what they're doing with their sleep other than making them And more obsessed about for a long time, we were able to sleep without having a tracker tell us how we slept.
当然。
Sure.
我所有穿戴设备都用过，都试过。
And I've used all the wearables and tried them all.
不过，我真的很喜欢我的佳明。
But like, I I love my Garmin.
我用过佳明。
I've used a Garmin.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我又没拿他们的钱。
I don't get paid by them.
然后上周末我进行了一次20英里的训练跑，结果发生了什么？
And then I just was doing a 20 mile training run last weekend and what happened?
它没完全充电，这就像是个噩梦。
It wasn't fully charged, which is like, you know, like the nightmare.
跑了11英里后就停了。
And it stopped after 11 miles.
对我来说，那是最自由的……
For me, it was the most freeing...
而那之后的九英里是我经历过的最自由的，也是我很久以来最好的一次跑步。
And it was the most freeing nine more miles I'd ever had and one of the best runs I've had in a long time.
完全同意。
Totally.
就凭感觉跑。
It just went by how I felt.
而前11英里，就像是在想，我们是不是跑得太快了？
Whereas the first 11 miles, was like, are we going too fast?
我们是不是跑得太慢了？
Are we going too slow?
我们是不是
Are we
在跑？
doing it?
就像，我需要什么
Like, what do I need
它跑
It go
想得太多了。
was too much thought.
就像我们只需要，嗯，别再过度思考这些，跟着当天的感觉走就好。
And it's like we just need to, like, stop overthinking all this stuff and go by how do you feel during the day?
而且我知道我之前说过，有时候你可能会在感觉上自欺欺人，但你能分辨出自己到底是睡得很差还是睡得特别好。
And I know I was saying that you might be fooling yourself sometimes with how you feel, but you can tell whether you had a really bad night or a really good night.
完全同意。
Totally.
另外，关于追踪器，它们在记录你总的睡眠时长方面通常还不错，但根据设备不同，它们在睡眠阶段方面的表现就没那么好了，而且差异很大。
And then the other thing with the trackers too is that they're they're they're good with the amount of time that you're sleeping generally, but they are not as great, and they vary based on the tracker.
它们在睡眠阶段方面没那么准确。
They're not as great with the stages of sleep.
所以人们会非常关注，比如，我必须获得更多的REM睡眠，然后说我没睡够。
So people get very focused on, well, I have to get more REM sleep, and say I'm not getting enough sleep.
这其实不太准确。
That's not so accurate.
所以问题是，它是不是让你对某件事更焦虑，但实际上并没有改变什么？
So it's like, is it making you more stressed about something and not actually changing it?
这就是我鼓励人们去思考的方式。
And that's how I encourage people to think about it.
那……
Let's...
你怎么划分这个界限呢？
How do you draw the line?
比如说，你早上要面对一个非常艰巨的任务，而整晚都翻来覆去没睡好。
Let's say you you have a really hard effort that you are facing in the morning, and you've tossed and turned on all night.
那早上还要硬撑吗？
Do you push through in the morning?
你会建议早上硬撑吗？因为身体已经经历了这些，你应该尽力而为，考虑到自己的感受？
Do you recommend pushing through in the morning because that's just what your body went through and you should try and give it your best considering how you feel?
还是说，你会说先放慢脚步，试着好好睡一觉？
Or do you do you say pump the brakes and try and get a better night sleep?
没有……
There's no...
我……
I...
即使对我自己来说，我也没有一个非常明确的界限。
You know, even for myself, I don't really have a hard and fast line.
就是看看你感觉怎么样。
It's just like, see how you're feeling.
试试看。
Just try it.
如果你就是觉得，我做不到。
And if you're just like, I can't do this.
这太难了，那就别硬撑了。
This is too much, then dump the bricks on it.
做点别的。
Do something.
调整一下。
Modify it.
我有过一些时候，即使感觉挺难受的，也得出去走走。
I mean, I've had times where I have to, like, just go for, like, a walk even if it was, like, rough enough.
其实真正重要的，就像比赛一样，你要考虑赛前那几天的睡眠情况。
Like, what really matters, it's just like with a race too, that you think about how much sleep you're getting leading up.
所以不一定就是比赛前一晚。
So it's not always the night before.
而是要想比赛前一周的情况。
It's like, think about the week before.
你希望有一个好的
You wanna have a good
累积。
Cumulative.
对，就是累积。
Cumulative, exactly.
你希望有那个基础在。
You want that there, that base.
然后要注意的是，在完成高强度训练后的那一晚，尽量确保优先保证睡眠，不要摄入太多咖啡因，那可能会影响睡眠。
And then the thing to think about is the night after that hard workout, try to just make sure you're prioritizing sleep that night, you're not having too much caffeine, that might make it harder.
因为高强度训练后的那一晚睡眠，才是真正帮助身体恢复的关键。
Because the sleep the night after the hard workout is gonna be the thing that helps your Right, body care sure.
所以说到高强度训练后的睡眠能帮助身体修复，在我们最后这几分钟里，你谈了很多关于我们想太多的问题。
So speaking about sleep after the hard workout being the thing that helps you repair, in our final couple minutes here, you've talked a lot about just, we overthink things.
那么考虑到这一点，如果有人想，天哪，我好累，因为现代生活某种程度上让人精疲力尽，我们的事情太多了，那么真正说明你睡眠质量好的标志有哪些？
So taking that into consideration, if someone's thinking, man, I'm tired, because modern life is exhausting to some degree, we have too much on our plates, what would be some really telltale signs you are actually getting good sleep?
另一方面，有哪些迹象值得注意，可能会告诉你，实际上，尽管你以为自己睡得好，但其实并没有，那么你就应该考虑一下。
And then on the other side, what would be some signs to look out for that might tell you actually, despite what you think you're not getting some good sleep, then you should think about it
嗯，就像，是不是有问题？
Well, it's like, is it broken?
是不是，你晚上醒来的次数多吗？
Is it, are you waking up a good amount at night?
你觉得你的睡眠，你可以累，但如果你整天都累呢？
Do you feel like your sleep is, you can be tired, but if, are you tired all day long?
你是不是没有精力？
Do you have no energy?
你知道自己的基准水平，如果感觉有什么不对劲，那我建议你去评估一下。
You know your baseline, and if you feel like something is off from your baseline, then I'd recommend getting it evaluated.
我们经常在女性身上看到睡眠呼吸暂停，而且经常被误诊，尤其是那些瘦的、健康的女性，就是……
We do see apnea a lot of times in women, especially, and it's misdiagnosed all the time, especially, like, women who are thin, who are fit, like, it just...
她们被漏掉了。
They get missed.
但如果你只是感觉有明显的改变，而且不管晚上睡得好不好都没有好转，那一定要去评估一下。
But if you just feel like there's an appreciable change that's not getting better regardless of the sleep at night, then definitely get it evaluated.
如果你觉得困，就是说你眼睛都睁不开，老是打瞌睡，如果这种情况经常发生，一定要告诉你的医生。
If you are sleepy, meaning you just can't keep your eyes open and you're dozing, if that's happening a lot of times, definitely bring that up to your doctor for sure.
还有一点我想说的是，如果你觉得晚上睡得还行，醒得不多，但不确定睡眠是否支撑你白天的状态，那就试着慢慢多睡一点，看看能不能改善。
And then the one thing I would say is like, see about at night, if you think that you're getting okay, you're not waking up a lot, but you're not sure if that's supporting you during the day, like the amount you're getting, try to slowly get a little bit more sleep and see if that helps to remedy it.
如果不管睡多少，你还是觉得不舒服，那就去找医生谈谈。
If that, no matter how much sleep you're getting, you still feel crummy, bring it up to your doctor.
对于运动员和女性跑者，尤其是随着年龄增长，你有什么额外的建议吗？
Is there any advice that you would add on to that for athletes and women runners specifically as they age?
特别是对女性来说，还要考虑一下不宁腿综合征，这个很常见，所以就是……
For women especially, just to think about restless leg syndrome is a very common one, so that's
我也有这个。
I have that.
对，我也有。
Yeah, I do
怀孕的时候特别难受。
It terrible in pregnancy.
就是……
It's
但我真的会服用甘氨酸镁，那很有帮助。
But I really take magnesium glycinate and that helps.
是的，镁确实有帮助。
Yep, magnesium can help.
如果你的铁蛋白偏低，那可能需要补充铁，但不要随便补充，最好先去做个测试。
If your ferritin is low, then we might supplement with iron, don't just willy nilly supplement, just actually get it tested.
你遇到这种情况会怎么办？
What do you do when you have that?
你自己是怎么解决的？
How do you solve for that, personally?
我就是起来走动走动，然后试着想想，如果是常规问题，我可能会想，是不是我的铁含量出了问题？
I just get up and I walk around and I just try to think about, if it's a routine problem, then I might think about, okay, is my iron off?
很多人只是觉得自己焦虑、坐不住，但没意识到这其实是不宁腿综合征，它也可能出现在手臂或躯干上。
And a lot of people just think, oh, I'm anxious, I'm antsy, but they don't realize it's actually restless leg syndrome, which can also happen in your arms or your trunk.
不一定只是腿部。
Doesn't have to just be your legs.
有意思。
Interesting.
我觉得很多人认为这不是真实存在的东西。
I think a lot of people think that's not a real thing.
而且每个人描述的方式都不一样，对吧？
It's also, everyone describes it different, right?
所以有些人就是感觉坐立不安。
So some people, just feel like antsy.
有些人说感觉血管里有气泡，或者有虫子在身上爬，
Some people say they feel like they have soda in their veins, bugs crawling on
爬来爬去。
them.
每个人的感受差别很大。
It varies my so much.
我也觉得坐立不安，如果不动腿就很不舒服。
I feel antsy too, like uncomfortable if I don't move my legs.
我从小就有这个毛病。
I've had it since I was a kid.
我觉得我儿子可能也有。
I think my son has it too.
他晚上动得很多，当他
That's when he moves a lot at night, when he's
对，而且这可能是遗传的。
Yeah, like and it can be hereditary.
我妈妈就有。
My mom has it.
所以遗传性很强。
So it's very hereditary.
我有一个问题，如果你有时间的话，就是我们年纪渐长，还保持活跃，还在努力奋斗。
My one question, if you have time, is as we get older, and we're active, and we're, you know, fighting the good fight.
在争取良好睡眠方面，对我们最不利的因素是什么？
What are the biggest things working against us as far as trying to get a good night's sleep?
就是我们刚才谈到的激素变化。
The hormonal changes like we were talking about.
这个你没办法改变，对吧？
Which you can't do anything about, right?
不，其实可以，有些人的激素疗法是有效的。
Well, no, you can, I mean, we have hormone therapy for some people, is effective?
我们还有其他针对潮热和夜间出汗的药物，对很多人来说非常有效。
We also have other medications for hot flashes and night sweats that are very effective for people.
我们还有认知行为疗法，对缓解焦虑非常有用。
We have cognitive behavior therapy, can be really useful for anxiety, for people.
但也要注意，就像我说的，特别是女性，要留意睡眠呼吸暂停和 restless leg（不宁腿）的情况。
But also look out for, like I was saying, if it's women, especially, out for sleep apnea, and look out for restless leg.
而且我觉得，如果这些情况被忽视了，如果你知道自己的基线有变化，那就找一个愿意倾听的医生。
And I think if those are things that, if someone's like just kind of brushing it off, if you know you, there's a difference in your baseline, find a doctor who will listen.
因为通常背后是有原因的。
Because often there's something going on.
听完这些，你有什么想法？
What are you thinking after that?
真的很有帮助，很有见地，提供了一个我们很多人现在都需要视角，因为我们总是倾向于与睡眠作斗争。
It was really helpful, insightful, and provided a perspective that I feel like a lot of us need right now given how we tend to fight, quote unquote, fight sleep.
我觉得她给我们的信息是：别再挣扎了。
And the message that I feel like she gave us was stop fighting it.
还有对你来说，当你睡不着的时候，你一直在挣扎着起床……
And also for you, when you are unable to fall back asleep, you've been fighting get out of...
起床。
Getting out of bed.
但她说，对。
But she said, yeah.
你应该起床。
You should get out.
然后走动走动。
And walk around.
你会试试吗？
Are you gonna try that?
你觉得你会吗？
Do you think you will?
我必须得试。
I have to.
因为我一直……
I mean, because I've been...
最近两三个晚上，我就躺在那儿，根本睡不着。
I've had the last two or three nights, I've just been lying there, it's just not working.
所以，是的，肯定要试试。
So, yeah, for sure.
我打算起床，下楼去，换个环境。
I'm gonna get up and go downstairs and, like, change the scene.
肯定的。
For sure.
换个环境。
Change the scene.
还有别的吗？
What else?
你有什么建议？
What you got?
你呢？
How about you?
我觉得她说的这个观点很有意思，就是我们给自己施加了很大压力，想要优化那些并不总是我们能控制的事情。
I mean, think it's interesting, this idea she talks about, that we're putting a lot of pressure on ourselves to really optimize something that isn't always within our control.
确实。
Definitely.
而且有时候我们反而忽略了那些我们真正能处理或解决的问题。
And sometimes we're sort of like overlooking the things that we can actually treat or solve.
我还在琢磨这个想法……
And I'm still sort of spinning on this idea around...
她提到了一点，就是你可以考虑你的健康，或者考虑你的价值观，这跟我的睡眠情况有关。
She made a comment about you can, you know, think about your health or you can think about your values sort of related to my sleep situation.
我觉得不一定是二选一。
And I don't think that it has to be one or the other.
所以这是我有点纠结的地方。
So I think that's something I'm kind of grappling with a little bit.
这个和Struck确实触动了你。
That and Struck then a chord there for you.
有一点。
A little bit.
不过她也说了，你可以在睡眠不好的情况下正常运作，而且你并不总能意识到出问题的迹象。
Because she also said, though, you you can operate without great sleep and you don't always realize the signs that something is wrong.
也许你并没有察觉到疲劳实际上在影响你。
Maybe you don't see when fatigue is actually affecting you.
但我不……
But I don't...
这很难，因为我仍然……
That's hard because I still...
我就想，天哪，我还是觉得我在从一些事情中恢复。
I'm like, man, I still feel like I'm recovering from things.
所以也许我的睡眠需求比较低，或者也许我实际上得到了足够的睡眠，因为我醒来时持续时间很短。
So maybe my sleep needs are lower, or maybe I'm actually getting enough sleep because when I wake, it's for such a short duration.
所以我仍然觉得我没有所有答案，也许那只是……
So I still feel like I don't have all the answers, and maybe that's just...
那不可能通过一次对话就解决。
That's impossible from a conversation.
我认为这里的关键问题是，睡眠问题根本没有办法彻底解决。
I mean, I think that's the overarching issue here is that there's no way to solve, quote unquote, solve sleep problems.
我们只能根据身体和心理上的障碍，在现有条件下尽量获得最好的睡眠。
It's working within the parameters of how to get the best sleep given, you know, the mental and physical barriers that your body are putting up.
不过，有一点我真的很喜欢，这也是其中的一部分，就是扔掉穿戴设备，回到以前。
However, one thing I really does like, and this is part of part of that is, like, ditch the wearable, go back.
对。
Yep.
晚上别再戴睡眠追踪器了，因为它实际上没什么用。
Stop wearing the sleep tracker at night because it doesn't actually do anything.
它没有任何价值。
There is no value out of it.
就像，我醒来时就是好奇它说了什么。
It's like, I wake up and I'm just curious what it said.
嗯，这又回到了我们开头说的，要么就别管它，要么就看一眼它说了什么，但别太当真……
Well, this goes back to our intro when I said either let it go or just look at it and see what it says, but don't take it at...
就把它当作参考就好。
Just take it at face value.
对。
Yep.
哦，还有一件事，Trax，我觉得很有意思，因为她提到随着女性年龄增长，获得好的睡眠就变得更难了。
Oh, one more thing, Trax, that I think is really interesting because she talked about that as women age, just becomes harder to get good sleep.
所以激素变化会影响睡眠质量，但睡眠本身也会随着年龄增长而自然变浅，因为我们不再需要那么多深度睡眠。
So hormonal changes affect sleep quality, but sleep also naturally just becomes lighter as we age because we don't need as much deep sleep.
她确实这么说了。
She did say that.
不过，我们仍然需要大量的睡眠。
However, we do still need a lot of sleep.
我们确实还是需要大量睡眠的。
We do still need a lot of sleep.
只是
It's just
而且你需要
the And you need
睡眠的类型已经改变了……
The type of sleep has changed...
有点变化。
Changes a little bit.
对此我有很多感受。
Which I have
对此我有很多感受。
a lot of feelings about that.
因为原因在于，我们不再成长了，所以不需要那么多深度睡眠。
Because the reason, right, we don't need as much deep sleep is because we're not growing anymore.
好的。
Okay.
咱们先别走这条路。
Let's we're not going down this path right now.
我知道你明天就40岁了，但是，不不不。
I know you're turning 40 tomorrow, but like, no, no, no.
好的。
Okay.
所以现在不是把人生比作一卷厕纸来讨论的时候？
So this isn't the time to talk about life as like a roll of toilet paper?
这个先搁置。
Table that one for now.
我们先搁置这个话题。
Let's table that.
好的。
Okay.
我们找另一个人来聊聊睡眠吧。
Let's talk to another person about sleep.
好的。
Okay.
行。
Alright.
好的。
Okay.
你说得对，Trax。
You're right, Trax.
我能提个请求吗？
Can I make a request?
没问题。
You got it.
我很想和一位和我处于相似阶段的妈妈聊聊，如果你愿意的话。
I would love to talk to another mom who's in a similar phase as me, if you're up for it.
我知道你早就过了这个阶段，所以这不一定跟你现在的情况有关，但我就……
I know you're so far out of this phase that this just doesn't necessarily relate to your current situation, but I just...
我想听听另一位运动员的看法，她有两个小孩，还在跑步和训练，看看她们是怎么处理睡眠的，因为我觉得我这边有压力要改变我的睡眠状况。
I would like to hear from another athlete who has two little kids, who's still running and training, and just see how they're approaching sleep because I feel like I have this pressure to change my sleep situation over here.
但另一方面，说实话我并不想改变。
But on the other side, I don't honestly want to.
因为我觉得这是一个阶段。
Because I feel like it's a season.
我猜现在很多人都在这个处境里。
I'm guessing a lot of people are in this boat right now in life.
所以我们绝对应该探讨这个话题。
So we should absolutely explore this subject.
好的。
Okay.
有个问题。
Question.
一起走一趟？
Along for the ride?
算我一个。
I'm in.
走吧。
Let's go.
就像那种真正的长跑搭档路线。
Like, the true long run partner tracks.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
我们该找谁聊聊？
Who should we talk to?
找伟大的莫莉·赫德尔怎么样？
How about the great Molly Huddle?
是的。
Yes.
真的吗？
Really?
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
她确实有两个小孩。
She does have two little kids.
两个小孩，要恢复训练，要重新比赛，但现在正处在最忙碌的阶段……
Two little kids returning to training, returning to competing, but in the thick of it right now with...
但现在正处在最忙碌的阶段，既要当妈妈，又要考虑自己的优先事项，她必须在家庭和自己之间做出调整。
But in the thick of it right now as far as motherhood and what her priorities are and how she has to shift towards focusing on her family versus herself right now.
但她可能两个孩子都睡得很沉，都能一觉到天亮了。
But she probably has both of her kids sleep drained, they're sleeping through the night.
她可能有一套极其严格的睡眠作息。
She probably has this insanely disciplined sleep routine.
哦。
Oh.
然后我会觉得，唉。
And I'm gonna feel like, ugh.
我到底做了什么？
What have I done?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我怀疑。
I doubt it.
你对自己太苛刻了。
You're just being hard on yourself.
我们去问问她吧。
Let's ask her.
我们聊聊吧。
Let's talk
跟她聊。
to her.
听起来不错。
Sounds good.
莫莉·赫德尔是两届奥运会选手，多次打破美国纪录，也是美国历史上最杰出的长跑运动员之一。
Molly Huddle is a two time Olympian, multiple American record holder, and one of the most accomplished distance runners in US history.
她还是两个女孩的妈妈。
She's also a mom of two girls.
我想一个四岁，一个刚过一岁。
I think age four and a little over one.
她正在应对训练、比赛和恢复的现实，而这一切都发生在一个非常不同的人生阶段。
And she's navigating the realities of training, of competing and recovering in a very different season of life.
是的，我明白。
Yes, I get it.
我明白，但我不是奥运选手。
I see, but I'm not an Olympian.
她最近在迎来第二个女儿后仅六个月就跑了一场马拉松。
She recently ran a marathon just six months after welcoming her second daughter.
她非常坦诚地讲述了在母乳喂养、睡眠和母亲职责之间平衡高水平训练的挑战。
And she's been really candid about the challenges of balancing high level training with breastfeeding, with sleep, and the demands of motherhood.
所以
So
她是完美的人选。
She is the perfect candidate.
你说得完全对。
You're totally right.
把她请进来。
Bring her in.
我们和莫莉·赫德尔在一起。
We are here with Molly Huddle.
莫莉，非常感谢你能来和我们一起。
Molly, thank you so much for being with us.
这是我的荣幸。
It's my pleasure.
我很高兴能和你们两位聊聊。
I'm excited to talk to you, ladies.
好的。
Okay.
我打算直接开始，先问这个问题。
I'm gonna dive right in and start with this question.
在2019年，你写了一篇文章，讲的是当你开始重视恢复后，你的表现提升了很多。
In 2019, you wrote a article about how much your performance improved when you started prioritizing your recovery.
你提到在大学时，你睡眠不足，训练非常刻苦，可能在恢复日也训练得太辛苦了。
And you talked about the fact that in college, you weren't getting enough sleep, and you were training really hard, and maybe too hard on your recovery days.
所有这些因素加在一起，基本上，你不得不重新评估一下。
And the combination of all those things, basically, you had to sort of reassess.
我现在在想，既然睡眠不再像以前那样受你控制了。
And I'm wondering now that sleep is not quite as in control for you as it used to be.
你是怎么应对的？
How how are you managing that?
你是怎么……
How how do you...
这如何改变你与恢复的关系？
How does that change your relationship with recovery?
是的。
Yes.
所以我现在有两个小孩，所以我睡得不像我想要的那么多。
So I have I have two small kids right now, so I don't sleep as much as I would like.
莫莉，你孩子多大了？
It's Molly, how old
你孩子多大了？
are your kids?
所以，我的大女儿乔乔四岁半了，她睡得挺好的。
So so my my oldest, Jojo, is 4.5, and she's she's sleeping good.
她两岁开始就能整夜睡觉了，这算比较晚的。
She's been sleeping since she was two through the night, which is late.
我觉得这都怪母乳喂养。
I blame breastfeeding.
不过，对，我一停止母乳喂养，她两岁就开始整夜睡了。
But, yeah, once I stopped breastfeeding, she started sleeping through the night at two.
路易斯快半岁了，所以她晚上还是经常醒。
And Louie is almost almost 0.5, so she's still waking up a lot.
我都不想提睡眠训练的事。
I don't wanna even get started on sleep training.
那是个大话题，哦。
It's a whole Oh.
挺有争议的。
Heated thing.
但我们没这么做，我也没睡好，不过孩子两岁前这样也没关系。
But we didn't do it, and I don't sleep, and that's fine until they're two.
那只是……哦
That's just Oh
天哪。
my gosh.
抱歉。
Sorry.
莫莉，我对我妈妈的决定感到非常认同，因为，好吧，我们一会儿再回到这个话题。
Molly, I get so validated in my mother's decisions because, okay, we're gonna come back to this.
我完全要换个话题了。
I'm totally flipping the script.
抱歉，特拉克丝。
Sorry, Trax.
你可以再问一遍你的问题。
You can ask your question again.
没事。
It's fine.
Molly，我现在感觉太强烈了，我都不知道该怎么形容，因为我睡觉，我是和孩子一起睡的。
Molly, I feel so, I can't even tell you what I'm feeling right now, because I sleep, I co sleep with my kids.
有一个孩子还有一周就四岁了，还有一个18岁，我终于不在晚上给他喂奶了，但是，我就是没法把他弄出我的床，我就想，他们太可爱了，对，我也怪这个，而且我也没法做睡眠训练。
Have one who's turning four in a week, and one who's 18, and I finally stop nursing him at night, but like, I can't get him out of the bed, and I'm like, they're so sweet, yeah, I blame it too, and I can't sleep train.
不，我发誓，孩子的类型真的很重要，就是完全不一样，我以前不知道。
No, I mean, I swear, like, the type of kid matters, like, it just is a whole, and I didn't know that.
这真的救了我们，那曾是个很大的压力点，就像，是我们家里的一个压力点。
It saved us, it was such a stress point, Like, it was a stress point in our house.
那是我和我丈夫之间的一个压力点。
It was a stress point with me and my husband.
那也是我们和孩子之间的一个压力点。
It was a stress point with our kids.
然后我就想，第二次的时候，我就想，我不这么做了。
And I'm just like, the second time around, I'm just like, not doing it.
而且这没什么。
And it's fine.
没什么。
It's fine.
你这么紧张是因为什么？
Is this stress that you're so runny?
大家，我只是开玩笑。
People I'm just kidding.
我
I
是。
am.
但你知道吗？
But you know what?
也许如果我是30岁，我可能会为了多睡一会儿而这么做。
Maybe if I was if I was 30, maybe I would have done it just to protect my sleep a little more.
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