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欢迎大家收听《Still Running》的第一期节目。
Welcome everyone to this first episode of Still Running.
很高兴你能和我们一起踏上这段旅程。
We're so excited you're here with us on this journey.
这是一档关于训练、野心、荷尔蒙，做妈妈，以及女性随着年龄增长如何跑步和训练的播客，聊聊所有影响我们跑步和训练方式的事情。
This is a podcast all about training and ambition and hormones, being moms, running as women who are aging, all of the things that shape how we run and train.
我们是Ashley和Trax，我们相差十岁。
We're Ashley and Trax and we're ten years apart.
我们虽然处在人生的不同阶段，但依然在不断追问同样的问题：关于身体、训练，以及如何继续做那些我们热爱的事。
We're in different seasons of life, but we're still asking a lot of the same questions about our bodies and training and how to keep doing the things that we love.
所以今天我们先从一个很大的话题开始聊起——可穿戴设备、科技和数据，以及怎么判断智能手表是在告诉我们真相，还是在毁掉我们的生活。
So today we're starting with a really big one about wearables and technology and data and how to sort out if our watch is telling us the truth or ruining our lives.
这一期节目和我们所有的节目一样，都像是一场长距离的对话。我和Trax会一起梳理各种议题，然后邀请专家来帮我们理清头绪。
This episode and all of our episodes are going to be like a long run conversation where Trax and I sort through issues together and then bring in experts to help us make sense of it all.
不知怎么的，我们居然做到了。
Somehow we did it.
我们终于到了。
We made it here.
我们正在录音。
We're recording.
这是我们的第一期节目。
This is our first ever show.
我们已经确认了，我们俩都喝了第三杯咖啡。
We've established we're both on our third cup of coffee.
对吧？
Is that right?
第三杯了。
Our third cup.
还在考虑要不要喝第四杯，但我觉得不应该喝。
Contemplating a fourth cup like, but I don't think I should do it.
而且，就在我们开始录音之前，我查看了昨晚的睡眠评分，因为我特别执着于追踪睡眠。
And also, right before we got on here to record, I pulled up my sleep score from last night because I obsessively track my sleep.
当然，我一醒来就打开看，这几天深度睡眠一直不太好。
Of course, the moment I wake up, I open it and look at it, and I haven't had very good deep sleep in the past few days.
你有吗？
You have?
我没有。
I've not.
哦，你没有啊。
Oh, you have not.
你现在睡眠情况怎么样？
What does your sleep look like right now?
我快撑不住了。
So I'm hanging by a thread.
你快撑不住了。
You're hanging by a thread.
为什么？
Why?
我刚在亚利桑那州度过了美好的四天。
I just spent four wonderful days in Arizona.
我参加了一个教练培训班，向一些大师学习，但昨晚大约凌晨1点才回来。
I was at a coaching clinic and learned from some of the greats, but I got back last night around 1AM.
再加上时差、海拔，还有我已经51岁了，现在状态不太好。
And between that and the time change and the altitude and the fact that I'm 51, I am not at my best right now.
可能是因为旅行，可能是因为海拔，还有好多不利因素。
Probably because of the travel, probably because of the altitude and the fact that I had a lot of things working against me.
我的睡眠质量很差。
My sleep has been garbage.
我还追踪我的HRV，也就是心率变异性。
And I also track my HRV, which is heart rate variability.
我相信你对此很熟悉。
I'm sure you're familiar with it.
现在这个指标正直线下降，情况不妙。
And that is at a solid negative downward spiral right now.
好的。
Okay.
等一下。
Wait.
我们先稍微停一下，因为咱俩都知道HRV是什么。
Let's pause just a little bit because you and I both know what HRV is.
不过，是的。
But Yep.
对于那些可能不知道的人，我知道它是心率变异性。
For everyone who may not, I know it's heart rate variability.
对。
Yes.
那你还知道关于它的其他什么吗？
Like, what else do you know about it?
让我先告诉你它是什么，然后再稍微详细解释一下。
Let me tell you what it is, and then I'll sort of break it down a little more.
HRV，也就是心率变异性，具体测量的是你每次连续心跳之间，以毫秒为单位的时间变化。
HRV, heart rate variability, specific measurement of the variations of time measured in milliseconds between each of your consecutive heartbeats.
好的。
Okay.
所以，虽然心率是每分钟的平均心跳次数，但HRV测量的是这个节律的波动情况。
So while your heart rate is your average beats per minute, your HRV measures the fluctuation of that rhythm.
有意思。
Interesting.
好的。
Okay.
我正在跟你说话呢。
I'm talking with you.
所以你是说你的HRV很低。
So you're saying that yours is low.
对。
Correct.
可能不是好事。
Maybe not a good thing.
所以根据所有资料，对吧，我们追求的是更高的HRV。
So according to everything out there, right, a higher HRV is what we're going for.
那说明你恢复得好，身体状态佳，一切正常。
That's that indicates that you are recovered well, you're fit, all the green lights.
但除此之外，你还应该检查你的HRV数值范围的稳定性。
But in addition to that, you should be checking the consistency of the range that your HIV falls in.
所以你希望那个数字，不管是五十、三十还是八十，都能保持在一个范围内。
So you're really hoping to have that number, whether it be fifty, thirty, or 80, stay within that range.
当你开始忽高忽低、波动很大的时候，那就是你的警示信号。
And when you start popping up and down all over the place, that's your red flag.
好的。
Okay.
所以我需要查一下。
So I need to pull up.
我得看看我的Kouros是怎么说的，这样我也能看看我的。
I need to look what my Kouros has been saying so I can look at mine too.
我就是有点好奇。
I'm just curious now.
比如，你昨晚是多少？
Like, what was yours last night?
我昨晚是二十五，对，差不多快不行了。
So my last night was twenty five, which is, yeah, borderline dead.
二十五。
Twenty five.
二十五。
Twenty five.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，我昨晚的也很低。
Well, mine was low last night too.
25。
25.
我的是22。
Mine was 22.
哦，但那可能是因为我生病了？
Oh, but that could be because I was sick?
那是因为你生病了。
That is because you were sick.
那是因为你生病了。
That is because you were sick.
我这个月的平均是47。
My month average is 47.
你的平均是多少？
What's your average?
我们来看看。
Let's check that out.
30。
30.
30。
30.
好的。
Okay.
所以稍微高一点。
So like a little bit higher.
稍微高一点，但没高多少。
Little higher, but not much.
不过说实话，专家说年龄是一个因素。
Now granted, experts say Asia is a factor.
所以考虑到我已经51岁了，这对我有点不利。
So I have that working against me given that I'm 51.
但老实说，我还是觉得这看起来挺低的。
But I still think it seems pretty low if I'm being honest.
对。
Yeah.
而且它不稳定。
And it's not consistent.
对。
Yeah.
看我的数据，我也有一些挺明显的波动。
Looking at mine, I have some pretty significant inconsistencies.
比如，有时候会偏高，大概65左右。
Like, I have some times where it's elevated, like, 65 or so.
据我所知，还有我理解的研究，以及这是直接从谷歌上查的，所以我不是这方面的专家。
And from what I can tell, and, like, the research as I understand it, and also, like, this is straight from Google, so I am not an expert on this.
看起来HRV就像你说的，是个人的，没有一个对所有人都好的统一数值。
It seems like HRV is like to your point, personal, and there isn't one number that's considered good for everyone.
但如果你基线有这么大的波动，那通常说明可能有什么不该发生的事在发生。
But if you've had these big swings in your baseline, that usually indicates like maybe something is going on that shouldn't be.
那还挺有意思的。
So that's interesting.
所以呢
So
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yep.
如果数值偏离你的正常范围，过高或过低，可能暗示恢复方面有问题，或者生病了，也可能是积累了某些压力。
If it's too high or too low outside of your norm, that could indicate there's maybe like some sort of issue with recovery or illness or maybe accumulated Something
更大的问题可能正在发生。
bigger is probably going on.
对。
Yeah.
结合我们这期节目一开始聊的内容，我觉得咱们俩都面临着某种更大的状况。
Which based on how we both started this episode, I feel like there's something bigger going on for both of us.
没错。
Exactly.
我同意。
I would agree.
不过，我也得补充一句，我几乎每天都这么觉得。
Although, I would also caveat that I also feel like that almost every day.
那你怎么区分“大问题”和“更大的问题”呢？
So how do you differentiate between the big and the bigger?
好。
Okay.
但我想问你一个问题。
But let me ask you this.
知道你的心率变异性数值这么低，你是什么感觉？
Knowing that you have this low number for your heart rate variability, like how do you feel about that?
你心里是怎么想的？
Like, what's going through your mind?
你问这个问题挺有意思的。
Well, it's interesting that you asked me that.
好的。
Okay.
我给你讲个小情况吧。
Let me give you a little situation.
去年冬天，我在为波士顿马拉松训练。
This past winter, I was training for the Boston Marathon.
到了三月份，马拉松是四月份，我的心率变异性开始持续下降。
And when I got to March, marathon's in April, my HRV started to fall steadily.
基本上，我那时候工作特别忙，还要出差，还去了趟西班牙看我女儿。
And I basically had a combination of a very busy work schedule, a travel, a trip, which I went to Spain to visit my daughter.
我还跑了个半程马拉松。
I ran a half marathon.
所有这些加在一起，对我来说简直就是恢复的反面典型。
And between all of those things, it was the perfect storm of anti recovery for me.
而且，你知道的，我回来后虽然试着让身体休息、专注恢复，还减少了训练量，但状态就是没回升。
And despite, you know, coming back and despite coming back and trying to give my body some rest and focus on recovery and back off on workouts, I was not bouncing back.
所以每天我都会去查看，结果每天都显示偏低。
So every day I would check and every day it would be low.
我开始感到非常沮丧，因为离马拉松比赛已经很近了。
And I started to get really frustrated because I'm getting now pretty close to the marathon.
你懂的？
You know?
而且你知道，如果我真的读懂这些数据，并按照研究建议的方式去解读和处理的话，所有迹象都表明你不可能跑出一场好成绩。
And, you know, all signs are pointing to you're not gonna have a good race if I really read this data and treat it the way, you know, that research says I should read it.
所以我干脆不看数据了。
So I I stopped looking.
我把那个设备摘了下来。
I took I took off my band.
我不再戴它了。
I stopped wearing it.
我不再追踪我的睡眠了。
I stopped tracking my sleep.
我也不再追踪我的心率变异性了，因为不管那个数字是多少，我都要去跑波士顿马拉松。
I stopped tracking my HRV because I was going to run Boston regardless of what that number said.
我决定，在比赛前让一个负面的数字在脑子里转悠，对我来说不值得。
And I decided that having a number that negatively sat in my head prior to lining up was just not worth it for me.
那这样做有用吗？
So did it help?
我是说，把那些都丢掉，完全忽略数据。
I mean, getting rid of everything and just ignoring the data.
我坐在这儿想，我每天早上都会看我的数据。
I'm sitting here like, I look at my data every morning.
我不知道
Like, I don't know
我能不能做到那样。
if I could do that.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
I know.
说实话，把它摘下来、真正放手，对我来说是个大事，因为我已经坚持了好几年了。
It was a big deal to take it off and really let go because I'd been doing it for years if I'm being honest.
哇。
Wow.
但这也让我稍微解脱了一点。
But it but also it freed me a little bit.
我不再每天早上醒来就去看那个数字，然后决定我这一天或者训练会怎么样。
I stopped thinking about every morning waking up and seeing a number and determining how my day may or may not go, how a workout may or may not go.
所以我带着没有时间目标的心态去跑了马拉松，显然，因为我之前一直状态不好，感觉有点累，不像自己，就决定凭感觉去跑。
So I made it to the marathon with no time goal, obviously, because I had been struggling and felt sort of tired and not myself and decided to just run it, you know, based on feel.
结果感觉非常好。
And it was wonderful.
那真的是我跑得最好的马拉松之一，我已经跑了39个了。
It was truly one of my best marathons, and I've run 39.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
所以你的结论是不是有两个？
So is your conclusion from this like two things?
第一，有时候你得忽略数据，数据是错的。
One, sometimes you just have to ignore the data and the data is wrong.
对。
Yes.
第二，也许你的心率变异性虽然低，但实际上并不是坏事。
And two, maybe your HRV even though low actually isn't a bad thing.
对。
Yes.
所以我的结论正是如此。
So my conclusion is exactly that.
不要总是相信数据。
Don't always trust the data.
是的。
Yeah.
但话说回来，什么是较低的HRV？
But also what is a lower HRV?
这就是我想更深入探讨的地方。
Like, is this is what I wanna dig into a little deeper.
HRV并不是一个科学数字。
Like, HRV is not a scientific number.
它是可穿戴设备创造出来的。
It is provided it was created by wearables.
所以，它只是一个数据点，但并没有科学依据。
So, it's a data point, but it's not backed by science.
为了帮助我们理解HRV到底测量什么，以及我们是否应该让手表上的一个数字来决定我们对恢复的感受，我们联系了Rachele Pojednic。
To help us understand what HRV actually measures and whether we should be letting one number on our watch determine how we feel about our recovery, we called Rachele Pojednic.
Rachele是一位运动生理学家、研究员和科学传播者，研究运动、肌肉健康、营养和恢复。
Rachele is an exercise physiologist, a researcher, and science communicator who studies exercise, muscle health, nutrition, and recovery.
她与运动员合作超过二十年，特别擅长将复杂的科学转化为我们大家都能实际使用的信息。
She has spent more than twenty years working with athletes and has a particular talent for translating complicated science into information that all of us can actually use.
现在让我们和她聊聊。
Let's chat with her now.
我想深入了解HRV。
I wanted to dive headfirst into HRV.
我们知道它是心率变异性。
So we know it's heart rate variability.
我们知道它是什么意思。
We know what it means.
但你能再深入讲讲吗？
But can you take us a step further?
它是怎么来的？
How was it created?
谁发明的？
Who created it?
有科学依据吗？
Is it backed by science?
给我们讲讲内幕吧。
Like, give us the lowdown.
它到底重要吗？
Does it even matter?
根本不
Doesn't even
重要。
matter.
这个问题真的很重要。
This is a really important question.
我有点害怕听到那个答案。
I'm kinda scared to hear that answer.
其实HRV是个老指标了。
HRV is actually, it's an old metric.
它几十年前就被开发出来，主要是作为心血管健康，特别是胎儿健康的诊断工具，这真的很有意思。
It was developed decades ago for essentially, as a as a diagnostic for cardiovascular health and specifically for fetal health, which is really interesting.
哦。
Oh.
心率变异性，简单来说，就是每次心跳之间间隔的时间差。
Heart rate variability is essentially the amount of space that's in between each of your heart rates, heartbeats.
你看过那种像《急诊室的故事》或者我们那时候的《ER》之类的剧吧，背景里那个“嘀嘀”的声音就是病人的心跳，你听起来可能觉得它像节拍器一样非常规律。
And so when you have ever watched something like the pit or in our day, it was ER, and you have that beep in the background that is indicating that person's heart rate, you probably heard it as kind of a very perfect metronome of beating.
对吧？
Right?
但实际上，每次心跳之间的间隔其实有细微的差别。
When in reality, there's actually ever so slightly different spacing in between each of those beats.
事实证明，间隔越大越好。
The more spacing, the better as it turns out.
有趣的是，他们确实能通过超声波听到胎儿的心跳，来判断宝宝在子宫里的发育情况。
And so interestingly, they were actually able to do an ultrasound and listen to a fetal heartbeat to figure out how is this, you know, baby developing in the womb.
同时，它也是衡量母体健康的一个指标。
And also, it was an indicator for maternal health as well.
所以最初就是从那里开始应用的。
And so that was originally where it started to be used.
它在心血管诊断中用了很长时间。
It was used in cardiovascular diagnostics for a long time.
后来健康产业开始兴起，研究人员也开始用这个工具来了解压力。
And then the wellness industry starts coming along, and researchers started to come along and use this tool to understand stress.
因为事实证明，它确实是衡量身体压力——无论是生理还是心理压力——的一个很好的指标。
Because as it turns out, it actually is a very good indicator of stress in your body, both physical and mental stress.
所以，你承受的身体或精神压力越大，每次心跳之间的间隔就越短。
So the more physical or mental stress that you are under, the less space that occurs in between each of these heartbeats.
心跳会变得非常有规律，这听起来有点奇怪。
It starts to get much more regular, which is a weird way to think about it.
你可能觉得规律是正常的，但其实不是。
You would think regular is normal, but it's not.
心跳越规律，说明你的身体实际上承受的压力越大。
The more regular it becomes, the more stressed out your body is actually experiencing.
真奇怪。
Very bizarre.
确实奇怪。
It's bizarre.
但问题是这样的。
But here's the thing.
这一点非常重要，这也是我在那篇帖子里想表达的关键之一。
This is really important, and this was kind of one of the things that I was trying to get across in that post.
压力大并不意味着你的表现会受影响。
Just because you're stressed doesn't mean that your performance is going to be affected.
也不意味着有什么问题。
It doesn't mean that something is wrong.
更不意味着你需要去解决什么。
It doesn't mean that you need to fix something.
它只是表明你体内的自主神经系统正在发生变化。
It just is an indicator that something is actually changing the autonomic nervous system in your body.
对吧？
Right?
我给你举一个很好的例子，说明这很容易被误解。
I'll give you a really good example of how this can be really misinterpreted.
我研究作战人员已经几十年了。
So I've studied war fighters for several decades.
大概在十年前或十五年前，他们做了一项关于飞行员的研究。
And probably ten or fifteen years ago at this point, they did a study on pilots.
这些飞行员被派去执行一项非常容易引发压力的飞行任务。
And the pilots were being assigned to go out onto a really stress inducing flight.
虽然是一次练习飞行，但他们被要求做的事情对他们来说真的很有挑战性。
It was a practice flight, but they were being asked to do something that was really challenging for them.
对吧？
Right?
你可以想象，驾驶战斗机本身可能就相当有压力。
And you can imagine flying a fighter jet is probably in and of itself fairly stressful.
他们发现了一个非常有趣的现象：那些心率变异性较低的人反而表现更好，这和他们最初的假设并不一致。
And what they found, which was really fascinating, is that those people that had a lower HRV actually performed better, which was not the hypothesis when they went in.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
我想问个问题，Rachel。
Clarifying question, Rachel.
所以HRV更低的意思是……
So lower HRV meaning like
就是数值更低。
The lower number.
数值更低。
The lower number.
比如是20。
Having a 20.
好的。
Okay.
数值更低。
The lower number.
对。
Right.
就是20而不是40。
The track having a 20 as opposed to a 40.
没错。
That's right.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
你人生中状态最好的时候。
Best condition of your life tracks.
你正在走向
You're on your way to
我是奥运选手。
I am an Olympic athlete.
好。
Okay.
抱歉，Rachele。
Sorry, Rachele.
继续。
Keep going.
原因是人类其实在压力大的情况下反而会表现得更好。
The reason for that is because humans thrive actually in stressful situations.
对吧？
Right?
你以前也经历过这种情况。
You've experienced this before.
对吧？
Right?
你需要在众人面前做演讲，或者参加体育比赛，心跳加速，肚子咕咕叫。
You've had to present in front of a room or compete athletically, and your heart is beating and your stomach is gurgling.
我喜欢把这称为“蝴蝶编队飞行”，那种燃料。
I like to call it butterflies flying in formation, that fuel.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yep.
这种紧张感会让你的心率变异性大幅下降。
Those butterflies flying in formation will tank your HRV.
确实会降得很厉害。
Absolutely tank them.
但这并不意味着你就没法表现好了。
That doesn't mean that you can't perform.
它只是说明你正感受到压力。
It means that you're feeling stress.
当我们观察人类的压力时，实际上会发现压力对人类相当有益。
And when we look at stress in human beings, what we actually see is that stress is quite beneficial for humans.
在我从事的运动和肌肉研究中，我们称之为‘毒物兴奋效应’的压力。如果你是一名运动员或者经常锻炼的人，你会知道这过程挺艰难的。
We call it hormetic stress in the work that I do in exercise and in muscle research, where if you're an athlete or somebody that exercises, you know it's kind of hard.
对吧？
Right?
如果你在运动时监测你的心率变异性，它也会下降。
If I was to commit your HRV while you are exercising, it would also go down.
那个数字会下降，因为你正在经历压力。
That number would go down because you are experiencing stress.
当压力缓解时，它最终会回升，但这并不表示你有什么问题。
Eventually, it rebounds when that stress is alleviated, but that doesn't indicate that something is wrong with you.
这也不意味着这种压力会影响你的长期健康。
It doesn't indicate that that stress is going to impact your health long term.
它基本上只是提醒你要注意。
It just basically means pay attention.
所以我不知道你几周前有没有看高尔夫公开赛。
So I don't know if you saw this a couple of weeks ago at the golf open.
他们真的在罗里·麦克罗伊走向当天最重要的一杆、最重要的一推时，给他戴了一个Whoop手环。
They actually had a whoop band on Rory McElroy as he was walking up to one of the most important shots, one of the most important putts of the day.
大家都以为这些运动员非常冷静、沉着。
And everybody thinks these athletes are just cool, calm, and collected.
他们做了所有的心理训练，但数据显示他走向那一杆时心率大约每分钟140次，而他的心率变异性，再次，绝对跌到了谷底。
They've been doing all their mental training, and they showed that his heart rate was something like a 140 beats per minute as he's walking up to make this shot, and his heart rate variability was absolutely, again, down in the the the dumps.
对吧？
Right?
而且，再说一次，这只能说明这个人正处于压力之下。
And, again, all it indicates is that this man's under stress.
比如，他想赢这场高尔夫比赛。
Like, he wants to win this golf match.
对吧？
Right?
当然。
Sure.
高尔夫比赛中的转折。
Golf turnaround.
所以你必须结合背景来看待所有这些数字。
And so you have to be thinking about all of these numbers in context.
你不能只看它们就说，哦，有什么不对劲，事情在往坏的方向发展。
You can't just look at them and say, oh, something is bad, something is going sideways.
理解环境非常重要，这样你才能正确解读这些数字。
It's really important to understand what the environment is so that you can interpret those numbers.
好的。
Okay.
你提到了一个非常有趣的点，我想深入探讨一下。这也让我想到，当你真的对某件事感到压力时，说明你在乎它，而且你往往会表现得更好，也许是因为如果你能驾驭这种压力，你所说的一切从情感或心理角度来看也是合理的。
You're touching on something really interesting that I wanna dig into because this also makes me think about this idea that like when you're really stressed about something that indicates that you care about it and you are oftentimes going to perform better perhaps because that's just a way like if you can harness that stress, everything that you're saying makes sense also from just like an emotional or psychological perspective.
但我忍不住想，这在短期内是合理的。
But I can't help but think that that makes sense for a short duration of time.
但如果那个低数字长期显示高压力水平，从生理角度来看，那可能就有问题了。
But then if you have that low number that perhaps is showing a high level of stress over a long period of time, like that could be problematic from a physiological perspective.
对吧？
Right?
完全正确。
That's exactly right.
所以，当我谈到背景时，这一点非常重要。
So this is really important when I talk about context.
对吧？
Right?
所以，如果你站在比赛的起跑线上，或者即将给一群重要的人做演讲，然后你看到那些数字开始明显波动，没关系。
So if you are standing at the starting line of a race or you're about to give a speech to a really important group of people, and you see those numbers really start to shift around, okay.
没事。
Fine.
因为就像我们刚才提到的Trax，它最终会回到你的正常范围。
Because as we mentioned Trax just a moment ago, it will eventually come back into your normal range.
但是，我们知道长期的压力对人是非常有害的。
However, we do know that chronic stress is quite detrimental to people.
长时间处于压力曲线的痛苦一侧，一开始可能会感到疲劳。
Being in that distress side of the stress curve for a long period of time can start with fatigue experience.
最终你可能会开始生病。
You can eventually start to get sick.
对吧？
Right?
你更容易感染某种疾病。
You're more apt to get some kind of an infection.
我们知道这可能导致心理健康问题，比如职业倦怠。
We know it can lead to mental health disorders, things like burnout.
对吧？
Right?
所以如果你看到那个数字一直停留在较低的区间，那就是该真正注意的时候了。
And so if you're seeing that number linger in those lower bars, that's when it's time to really pay attention.
但我觉得还有一点很重要，就是这也要结合每个人的具体情况来看。
But the other thing that I think is really important to call out here is that it is also going to be in the context of that individual.
所以你说过的一点，Trax，我觉得非常重要，就是，你知道，我的数值通常在四十多。
So one thing that you said, Trax, that I think is really important is, you know, my number is normally in the forties.
如果你去跟朋友聊，他们说，哦，我的数值通常在八十多。
If you went and started to talk to friends and they're like, oh, well, my number is normally in the eighties.
你可能会想，我是不是有什么问题？
You might say, what's wrong with me?
你可能会想，为什么我的数值才40？
You're like, why is mine only 40?
但对你来说，40是完全正常的。
When for you, 40 is totally normal.
对吧？
Right?
其实对于HRV（心率变异性）来说，并没有一个统一的诊断标准或者必须达到的范围。
It's doesn't there's no diagnostic or or range that you should be in for HRV.
问题出在你的数值连续两周从40降到了17。
The problem arises when your 40 becomes 17 for two weeks in a row.
对吧？
Right?
这时候我们就能看出问题了，因为你开始意识到这种压力实际上对你的身体产生了更长期的影响，而不仅仅是像站在起跑线上那样……
That's when we start to see problems is because you are noticing that this stress is in fact having now a more chronic effect on your body rather than just simply standing at the line of a race that
让你感到兴奋的那种状态。
you're excited about.
好的。
Sure.
没问题。
Sure.
我能接着问个问题吗？
Can I ask a follow-up question on that?
因为之前对比这些数据的时候，Trax把她的数据给我看，我就想，那我也看看自己的吧，毕竟我之前没怎么关注过这个。
Because when we were comparing these and Trax was bringing her numbers to me, I was like, well, let me look at mine because like I haven't paid a lot of attention to it.
我注意到有些时候数值会突然飙升，比正常水平高很多。
And I noticed moments where it was spiking up like a lot higher than normal.
于是我开始查了一些相关资料。
And I started reading a little bit about this.
这可能不太准确，但我当时就在想，也许数值飙升也是同样的道理。
So this may be completely not accurate, but I started thinking, well, maybe if it's spiking up higher, like maybe that's the same thing.
比如处于压力期或者睡眠不足的时候。
That's periods of stress or not enough sleep.
我孩子还很小。
Like I have really small kids.
我晚上都睡不了一个整觉。
I don't sleep through the night.
那反过来是不是也一样？
Like is the opposite true too?
如果压力分钟数偏低，也可能说明有压力或者有问题，如果比平时高的话。
If your stress minutes low, it could also indicate stress or some issue if it's higher than normal.
可能有好几种情况。
It could be a couple of different things going on.
第一种可能是，你其实一直处于一种慢性压力状态，然后你睡了几晚好觉。
So the first thing that could be happening is that you you're actually living in kind of like a chronic stress zone and then you got a couple of night sleep.
哦，不会吧。
Oh, no.
不会吧。
No.
我想听听，Rachele。
I wanna hear, Rachele.
说实话吧。
Let's be honest.
你可能是。
You might be.
你可能
You might
是。
be.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
我的数值可能平时是60，但你大概在40左右徘徊，然后偶尔会飙到60，因为你……我……
My number might actually normally be 60, but you're kinda cruising around 40, and then every now and again, it spikes to 60 because you I'm
我要看看。
gonna look at it.
让我……我要看看。
Let let me I'm gonna look at it.
对。
Yeah.
因为你没去成。
Because you didn't going.
对。
Yeah.
你今天没遇到什么压力吧。
You didn't have a stressful day.
另外我觉得这些设备特别重要的一点是，它们并不是随时都准确。
The other thing that I think is really, really important about these devices is that they are not accurate all the time.
对吧？
Right?
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
所以要注意的一点是，你实际使用的设备。
So something to pay attention to is the actual device that you're using.
比如，如果你睡觉时压到它，或者它被压得不对劲，或者你卧室温度变化特别大之类的，那可能会给你一些不准确的数据。
If you, for example, sleep on it funny and it's pressing weird or you have a temperature change that's really wild in your bedroom or whatever, that can actually give you some false numbers.
所以如果看到偶尔有峰值，我可能会觉得那更像是设备故障，而不是你身体真的有什么急性反应。
So seeing spikes here and there, what I would probably think is that it's actually like device malfunction rather than you necessarily having some kind of acute physiologic response.
这一点也很关键。
So that's also really key.
因为想想这些设备，它们叫做光电容积脉搏波描记设备。
Because think about all these devices, they're called photoplethysmography devices.
它们的工作原理是，通过皮肤发射一点光线，来了解你的心跳情况。
And what they do is they shoot a little bit of light through your skin so that they can understand what's going on with with your heartbeat.
对吧？
Right?
有些设备会监测体温，比如Oura Ring就会监测体温。
Some of them monitor temperature, like Oura Ring will monitor temperature.
有些设备还能显示你的睡眠情况和睡眠阶段，关于这个的复杂性我们稍后再深入聊。
Some of them give you an indicator of your sleep and your sleep phases, and we can dive into the complexity around that in just a moment.
但你在身体不同位置采集数据，这些位置本身也可能带来问题。
But all of those different places where you're capturing that data on your body could also be problematic.
比如说，你戴了一个手环。
So let's say, for example, you wear a band.
比如说是Whoop手环、佳明或者苹果手表。
Let's call it a whoop band or a Garmin or an Apple Watch.
如果你体毛比较多，手臂背面的汗毛可能会影响读数，因为汗毛会挡住那束光。
If you are a hairier person, the fur on the backside of your arm can actually impair that reading because it literally gets in the way of that beam of light.
如果你皮肤颜色较深，那也会影响光线穿透皮肤的方式，从而影响测量结果。
If you are a dark skinned person, that can also change the way that you are experiencing the way that the light is able to penetrate through your skin.
如果手环在手腕上转了个方向，比如平时戴在一侧，现在换到另一侧，读数也会不一样。
If you get it turned around on your wrist where it normally is on one side and now it's on the other, you're gonna get a different reading.
所以，所有这些因素在解读数据时都很重要。
And so all of these things matter in the context of how you interpret that data.
我们逐渐意识到，戒指在数据采集的一致性上其实更好一些，因为手指上紧挨着血管的皮肤比手腕上的要薄得多。
One of the things that we're realizing is that the ring is actually a little bit better for the consistency of the data collection because the skin that's right next to your blood vessels is is very thin in your finger as opposed to on your wrist.
而且，人们手掌上的黑色素含量往往更标准化一些。
And also, the melanin on the palms of people's hands tends to be a little bit more standardized.
黑色素少一些，你看人们的手掌，大多数颜色都不那么深。
So less melanin, if you look at the palms of people's hands, most of them are are not as dark.
所以光线穿过手指的效果比穿过手腕要好，这也是为什么，顺便说一句，不同设备之间的数据不能直接比较。
And so that light works a little bit better through the finger than it does in the wrist, which is also, for the record, why you can't compare device to device to device.
比如说，Trax，你戴的是手腕设备。
So let's say Trax, you wear a wrist device.
假设你戴的是Whoop或者Garmin，而Ashley你戴的是Oura Ring。
Let's say you have a whoop or a garment, and, Ashley, you're wearing an Oura Ring.
你们的数据实际上不能互相比较，因为采集方式完全不同。
Your metrics actually can't be compared to each other because they're being collected in completely different ways.
那么，考虑到这些，以及使用这些设备的人群——那些日常运动、认真、有知识的人——我们是不是不应该追踪这些数据呢？
So given that and given who uses them, the everyday athletic, conscientious, you know, knowledgeable, should we not be tracking it?
就像我说的，我回到了传统方式。
Like I said, I went back to analog.
深入研究之后，我就不再使用追踪器了，但在研究中我还是会用到它。
I do not have a tracker anymore after taking a deep dive into this, but I do use it in my research.
只要我使用同一设备、同一软件，并且在一段时间内我能控制变量，知道佩戴者是谁，我就信任这些数据。
I I I I trust the numbers as long as I'm using the same device within the same software package over a period of time that I can control and I know that the people are wearing them.
我确实信任它们，因为有些指标我会用于研究。
I do trust them in the sense that there are metrics that I will use for my research.
但是，Rachel，你为什么不信任它们呢？
But, Rachel, why don't you trust them?
你为什么回到传统方式？
Why did you go analog?
对我来说，我告诉你。
For me, I'll tell you.
这其实和Trax的经历有关。
So this actually goes to Trax's experience.
这快把我逼疯了，因为我也在追那个数字，而且我明明知道不该这样。
It was driving me crazy because I was chasing that number too, and I know better.
我明明知道。
I know better.
所以对我来说，早上醒来的时候，特别是关于睡眠数据。
And so for me, I would wake up in the morning, and for me, for specifically, it was about the sleep metrics.
我睡眠质量很差。
I am a terrible sleeper.
我很容易醒。
I'm a light sleeper.
我伴侣整晚翻来覆去还打呼噜。
I have a partner that rolls around all night and snores.
对吧？
Right?
所以我每天早上醒来。
And so for me, I would wake up every morning.
它就像在说，你睡得糟透了。
It was like, you've slept like holy hell.
我就想，我知道。
And I'm like, I'm aware.
谢谢。
Thank you.
每天都是这样。
This is every day.
不需要这种反馈。
Don't need that feedback.
所以对我来说，这变得有点心理上的毒害，每天早上我都在追那个数字，晚上睡觉前还会想，今晚就是那一晚。
And so for me, it became sort of, like, mentally toxic where I was chasing that number every morning, and I would go to bed the night before being like, tonight's gonna be the night.
会睡得很好。
Gonna sleep great.
早上醒来。
I wake up in the morning.
我感觉棒极了。
Like, I feel wonderful.
我睡得特别香。
I slept terrific.
结果我的智能戒指显示，你睡得糟透了。
And my ring was like, you've slept terribly.
它说你只有七分钟的深度睡眠。
You've got seven minutes of deep sleep.
与此同时，我听着斯坦福大学睡眠中心的所有同事都在说，你至少需要六十分钟的深度睡眠。
Meanwhile, I'm listening to all of my colleagues in the sleep centers at Stanford being like, you need at least sixty minutes of deep sleep.
我就想，我到底有没有拿到六十分钟的深度睡眠呢？
And I'm like, am I getting sixty minutes of deep sleep?
不过他们告诉我的这一点也非常有用，这也是我决定把它摘掉的原因之一。
But here's what they told me, which was also really helpful and also one of the reasons why I took it off.
那些被报告出来的其他睡眠阶段，其实也都是代理指标罢了。
All of those sleep stages that are also being reported are proxies as well.
所以实际上，除非在实验室里由科学家直接监督，否则我们没有好的方法来真正测量不同的睡眠阶段，因为测量必须非常严格，然后还要由人工来检查。
So we actually don't have short of being in the laboratory underneath the direct supervision of a scientist, a good way to actually measure different stages of sleep because it has to be measured really tightly and then checked by a human being.
现在也许可以用人工智能了。
We could probably use AI now.
但还是需要人工检查，才能真正了解你大脑中发生的睡眠波。
But checked by a human being to really understand the waves of sleep that are happening inside of your brain.
如果你戴的是戒指或手表，那只是基于体温、心率、一点点心率变异性的一个间接指标，而且每个设备都有自己的算法。
If you're wearing an a ring or a watch, it's just a proxy based upon temperature, heart rate, little bit of heart rate variability, and every device has their own algorithm.
所以你的设备和其他人的设备没法比较。
So your device is not comparable to others.
所以当我去看睡眠专家时，我找到了斯坦福的杰米·蔡策尔和雪莉·马，我问他们：我是不是快死了？
So when I went to my sleep specialists, I got Jamie Zeitzer and Sherry Ma out here at Stanford, and I was like, am I dying?
他们说：“把戒指摘下来吧，姑娘。”
They're like, take your ring off, girl.
对，把戒指摘下来。
Like, take your ring off.
你没事的。
You're fine.
它让你快疯了。
It's driving you crazy.
所以我才把戒指摘了。
So that's why I took mine off.
你说的这些让我想到，你知道吗？
You're everything you're saying is making me think, know what?
我晚上也得把手表摘了，因为我醒来后会忍不住一直看我的睡眠评分。
I need to ditch my watch at night too because I wake up and I obsessively look at my sleep score.
我们之前聊过这个。
We talked about this earlier.
确实有时候我会让那个评分影响我的心情。
And it does get to the point where I have had moments where I let that dictate how I feel.
我很好奇，你提到的那天，你醒来觉得自己状态很好，那天你感觉怎么样？
I'm curious if you like the day that you mentioned you woke up and you're like, I feel great.
然后你一看你的睡眠评分，结果发现它很糟糕。
And then you look at your sleep your and then you look at your sleep score and it's garbage.
你有没有在心理上改变自己的感受？
Did you somehow change how you felt psychologically?
就像，你会想，哦，等等。
Like, you're like, oh, actually, wait.
我其实感觉不太好。
I I actually feel bad.
我错了。
I was wrong.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
百分之百。
A 100%.
这种事经常发生在我身上。
It happened to me all the time.
后来我看到斯坦福大学一位研究人员做的一个研究。
And then I saw this one study by a researcher out here at Stanford.
她叫阿里·克鲁姆，在斯坦福大学领导着身心实验室。
Her name is Ali Crum, and she runs the Mind and Body Lab at Stanford.
她的研究方向是心态。
And she studies mindset.
对吧？
Right?
这算是她的拿手好戏。
That's kind of like her bread and butter.
她研究这个已经好几年了。
She's been studying it for years.
她有个博士后做过这项研究，正是因为这个研究，我最后才把表摘下来的。
And she had a postdoc that did this study that literally this was the reason why I I ended up taking my watch off at the end.
这是我的苹果手表，不是我的戒指。
This was my Apple Watch, not my Ring.
他们做了个研究，找来了一群有所谓“活动充足心态”的人，意思是这些人相信自己运动量足够，并且相信自己的运动对健康有益。
They did this study where they brought a bunch of people that had what they call an activity adequacy mindset, which means that these folks believe they get enough exercise, and they believe that their exercise is helpful for their health.
这让他们变得更健康。
It's making them a healthier person.
其实世界上有很多人都有“活动不足心态”。
There are actually a lot of people that are in the world that have inadequate activity mindsets.
这些人觉得自己运动不够，也知道这对健康有害。
These are folks that believe, I don't get enough exercise, and I know it's harming my health.
不管生理上是不是真的这样，他们的想法就是这样。
Whether or not physiologically it is, it's kind of like where their brain is at.
所以他们把所有有“活动充足心态”的人集中起来。
So they took all the people that had an adequate activity mindset.
我相信自己运动量够，而且相信这对健康有好处。
I believe I'm getting enough exercise, and I believe it's helping my health.
然后他们用Apple Watch把这些人分成了三组。
And they broke them up into three groups with an Apple Watch.
如果你用过Apple Watch，你可以在表盘上设置显示步数。
And if you've ever had an Apple Watch, you can do the setting on the front where you can see your step count.
他们是这样安排的：第一周，给每个人发了一个Apple Watch，但不显示步数，只显示“正在计算”。
And so they set it up where the first week, they gave everybody an Apple Watch, and rather than showing the step count, they just said calculating.
对吧？
Right?
所以那只是为每个人校准。
So it was just calibrating for the each person.
他们算出了每个参与者的平均步数。
And they figured out what the average step count was for each of the participants that were in the study.
然后，这真的很损，他们又分成了三组。
And then, this is so mean, they broke them into three groups.
要么告诉他们真相。
They either told them the truth.
比如说你每天走一万步。
So let's say you got 10,000 steps a day.
它告诉你每天走了一万步。
It told you you got 10,000 steps a day.
他们被分到了一个虚增40%的小组。
They put them in an inflated group by 40%.
比如说你每天走一万步。
So let's say you get 10,000 steps a day.
他们却被告知每天走了一万四千步。
They told them that they got 14,000 steps per day.
或者他们被分到了，这个，比较惨的那个组。
Or they put them in this is the the sad group.
他们被分到了那个减少40%的小组，然后被告知每天只走了六千步。
They put them in the group where they deflated by 40%, and they told them that they only got 6,000 steps per day.
这正好回答了你刚才的问题，Ashley。
This goes right to your question, Ashley.
那些得到真实数字或者虚高数字的人，状态都很好。
The folks that got the truth or the inflated number, they were great.
他们已经有了足够的活动心态。
They already had an adequate activity mindset.
他们会觉得，我步数够了。
They're like, I get enough steps.
我感觉很好。
I'm feeling great.
这对我是有好处的。
This is good for me.
那些得到虚高数字的人会想，哦，我做了什么，怎么步数变多了。
The people that got the inflation were like, oh, what did I do that got I got more steps.
我也不知道。
I don't know.
而那些得到虚低数字的人，他们的心理健康状况彻底崩了。
The folks that got the deflated number, their mental health absolutely tanked.
我怎么了？
What's wrong with me?
我心情很低落。
I'm down in the dumps.
他们开始在其他方面改变自己的行为。
They started to change their behaviors around other things.
他们开始吃更多超加工食品。
They started to eat more ultra processed foods.
他们吃的水果和蔬菜变少了。
They ate less fruits and vegetables.
他们开始喝更多酒。
They started to drink more alcohol.
就像，有点
Like, it kind of
到了这个地步，
got to this point where
他们就想，算了，管他呢。
they were like, screw it.
感觉这方法已经不管用了。
Like, it's not working anymore.
对吧？
Right?
不过，就像你说的，Ashley，他们其实每天还是走一万步。
Even though even though, to your point, Ashley, they were still getting 10,000 steps per day.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
虽然他们确实在坚持做，但他们自己觉得没做到，所以心理健康状况一下子就崩了。
Doing the thing, but they believed they weren't, and so their mental health absolutely went Wow.
直线下降。
Down.
那真的太让人沮丧了。
That's really depressing.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这就是为什么我提醒大家要谨慎使用这些设备，因为根据这些数字的波动，它们可能对我们的心理状态产生非常深远的影响，而这种影响与它们是否真的表明有问题完全无关。
So this is why I caution about using these devices because they can, based upon the fluctuations of these numbers, have a very profound effect on our mental state completely independent of whether or not they're indicating that there's something wrong.
对吧？
Right?
我们讨论过几种不同的情况，有时候你确实需要感到压力。
We've talked about a couple of different scenarios where sometimes you want to be stressed.
而设备告诉你，你现在有压力。
And the device is telling you you're stressed.
这样一来，它就会让你进入一种消极的压力状态，而不是积极的、有针对性的，或者说，积极的压力状态。
Now it's gonna put you into a negative stress state rather than a positive and targeted or, you know, positive stress state.
在其他情况下，就像你经历的，阿什利，还有我经历的，我醒来时觉得，我昨晚睡得很好。
In other cases, like you experienced, Ashley, like I experienced, I wake up and I'm like, I had a great night's sleep.
天哪，我好久没睡得这么沉了。
Man, I haven't slept that hard in so long.
然后我看了一眼手表，心想：什么？
And then I look at my watch, and I'm like, what?
这太糟糕了。
That's terrible.
结果我整天都过得特别不顺心。
And then I have I have an awful day all day long.
事实上，很多职业联赛里，WNBA就做过类似的事情。
In fact, in many of the professional leagues, they did this for the WNBA.
他们实际上是不让运动员佩戴这些设备的。
They actually would not let them wear their devices.
在NCAA的比赛中，这种情况也很常见。
They do it a lot in NCAA competition as well.
教练会直接说：把手表摘了，我不想让你盯着那个数据看。毕竟你知道，长途飞行过来参加全国冠军赛，你的各项指标肯定会下降。
The coaches will say, take your watch off because I don't want you looking at your number that I know is gonna go down after you've flown across the country to show up for the national championship.
这时候你心里就会想：我还没准备好呢。
And you're there thinking to yourself, I'm not ready.
我还没准备好面对这个。
I'm not ready for this.
这会立刻让你进入一种心态，对你的表现非常不利，跟数字本身没关系，完全取决于你的心态。
It immediately puts you into a mental state that is going to be devastating for your performance, having nothing to do with the number and everything to do with where your mind's at.
好的。
Okay.
所以我戴的是Whoop。
So I'm I wear the whoop.
我一直把它当作一个参考。
I've been using it as a gut.
比如，三月份那段时间我状态直线下滑，我就把它摘了，心想算了。
Like, after that whole time in March when I was plummeting, I took it off and was like, forget it.
然后我又戴上了，心想我要用它，但不会沉迷其中。
Then I, put it back on and was like, I'm gonna do it, but I'm not gonna be obsessed.
我会把它当作一个指导。
I'm gonna use it as a guide.
我会跟着这些模式走。
I'm gonna follow the patterns.
我会试着看这些节奏，但不会沉迷其中。
I'm gonna try and see the rhythms, but I'm gonna not get obsessed with it.
我现在不能说我对它上瘾了。
I would not say that I'm obsessed with it now.
我确实会看看，然后有点小反应，比如‘哦，这不错’或者‘哦，这有道理’或者‘哦’，但我不会抓狂。
I do look at it and sort of have little, oh, that was good or, oh, that makes sense or, oh, but I don't freak out.
但戴它有什么理由吗？
But is there a reason to wear it?
我是说，有什么好处呢？
I mean, like, what's the good?
我觉得如果你抱着现在的心态，然后说，我在从中学习什么对我有益，什么对我有害。
I think if you take the mindset that you are now in Trax and you say, I'm learning from this as to what is beneficial for me or what is harmful for me.
一个很好的例子可能是，比如我晚上十点前上床，如果我在晚上九点五十九分上床，睡前喝一大杯水，刷牙，然后有这样一个很好的习惯，我的HRV就会改善。
A really good example could be something like, when I go to bed before double digits, if I'm in bed by 09:59PM and I drink a big glass of water before I go to bed and I brush my teeth, and I've got this, like, really good routine, my HRV improves.
这真是很好的正面反馈，说明你得赶紧上床睡觉，别再看屏幕了，把头放在枕头上，闭上眼睛。
Well, that's pretty good and positive feedback that you need to get your butt into bed and get off your screen and put your head on the pillow and close your eyes.
对吧？
Right?
反过来也一样。
The converse is true.
对吧？
Right?
比如，周六晚上出去多喝两杯酒，就会影响我。
Like, oh, when I go out on a Saturday night and I have two extra glasses of wine, that affects me.
而且你第二天可能根本感觉不到。
And you might not actually feel it the next day.
你可能会觉得，对。
You might be like, yeah.
我不知道。
I don't know.
没事。
It's fine.
我其实感觉还行。
I could feel alright.
就是脑子有点发懵，但其他都还好。
A little brain fog, but everything's okay.
不是的。
No.
确实是这样。
Confirmed.
我每次都能感觉到。
I always feel it.
没错。
Yes.
不过那个数字嘛，比如说……
But that number can be like, hey.
注意听。
Pay attention.
就是说，注意听。
Like, pay attention.
这对你有影响。
This is affecting you.
当然。
Sure.
而且我觉得这也跟具体情况有关。
And that I think is also really contextual.
对吧？
Right?
所以这是个好方法，不一定要说我的日常就是这样，应该和Ashley的日常一样。
So it's a good way to not necessarily say my routine is as is and should be the same as Ashley's routine.
就拿睡眠来说吧。
Let's stay on sleep, for an example.
Trax，比如说你去睡觉。
Trax, let's say you go to bed.
如果你在晚上9点59分前上床，喝了一大杯水，刷了牙，头一沾枕头，没看手机屏幕，然后大概10点10分就睡着了。
If you go to bed by 09:59PM, you've got your big glass of water, you brush your teeth, put your head down your pillow, you haven't looked at your screens, and you're, you know, falling asleep by 10:10.
但Ashley是11点半睡，第二天你们俩的HRV都达到最佳状态，那你们就做对了。
But Ashley is 11:30, And the next day, both of your HRVs are maximized, then you did it right.
对吧？
Right?
做得好。
Good job.
对。
Sure.
所以这是相对的。
So relative.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这既是个警示，也是个好消息，因为你能摸索出适合自己的方法。
I think this is also a cautionary tale, but I think exciting is that you can learn what works for you.
在我生活的这个圈子里，我常想到一点：大家都希望有个放之四海而皆准的标准流程。
One thing that I think about a lot in the world that I live in is everybody wants there to be a right or a correct protocol that should apply to all people.
但这不符合现实。
That's not reality.
这种标准根本不存在。
It doesn't exist.
每个人的情况都不一样。
Every body is different.
每个人的生理特征也各不相同。
Every physiology is different.
所以回到你的问题，Trax，我觉得这些设备最棒的一点就是，你能了解属于自己的个体差异，知道什么对你有效，什么没用。这很可能跟你的伴侣、孩子或者训练伙伴都不一样。
So to your question, Trax, I think one of the things that's really great about these devices is you can learn about your individuality, what works for you, what doesn't work for you, which is probably going to be different than your partner in life, than your kids, than your training partners.
这样能帮你调整出最适合自己的方案，让你明白在比赛日，或者任何一个普通的周二，如何发挥出最佳状态，同时避开那些会触发你不良反应的诱因。
And so it helps you to dial in your protocol so that you can understand how you can show up in on, you know, on race day, on any given Tuesday to the best of your ability and avoid the things that are gonna be triggers for you.
我觉得这里最重要的启示就是，是的，要相信自己的身体。
I feel like this big takeaway here is, yeah, trust your body.
每个人的情况都是独特的。
It's individual.
要看整体的趋势。
Look at trends overall.
所以，我其实是在重新表述你刚才说的意思。
So like, I'm I'm more or less kind of reframing what you're saying.
不过当我们看自己的个人数据趋势时，虽然不同设备的测量方式不一样，但具体数值并不重要，重要的是趋势。
But when we look at our own personal trends, even though they're measured differently by different devices, it's not the number that matters, it's the trend that matters.
如果你对心率变异性（HRV）真的很感兴趣，你建议我们跟踪它并用这些数据来做什么呢？
If you are really interested in HRV, what is your recommendation for, like, what you should be tracking it and using that data for?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得最重要的是了解自己的身体机能，弄清楚什么对你最有效、什么没用，这样你就能制定属于自己的个性化方案和策略。
I think the most important thing is to understand your physiology, what works best for you, what doesn't work for you, so that you can start to create your own individual plan, your own individual protocol.
我觉得需要小心的是跟别人做比较。
Where I think you need to be careful is in comparison to other people.
这其实挺麻烦的，因为每个人情况都不一样。
That's really problematic because every person is different.
每个人的数据肯定都有差异。
Everybody's numbers are going to be different.
另外，利用这些数据很有帮助的一点是，你可以通过观察趋势来判断身体是不是出了什么问题。
And the other thing that can be really helpful about using it is you can figure out if something is going sideways by following those trends.
如果看到某个数据突然升高或者下降，那都没关系。
If you see a spike here or a dip there, it's okay.
你可以放松下来，继续过你的一天。
You can relax and just keep moving on with your day.
不过这些数据确实能帮你了解长期来看到底是什么在困扰你，但前提是你得先清楚自己的基线水平。
But they can be pretty helpful to understand if something is really bothering you over time, but you can only do that if you understand your own baseline.
对吧？
Right?
所以弄清楚什么对你有效、你的正常状态是什么样的，这样当数据发生变化时，你就能正确解读它了。
So figuring out what works for you and what your normal is then allows you to interpret that data should it change.
我不太确定。
I don't know.
我挺纠结的，因为我确实戴着它，也喜欢这些数据，但我也明白为什么这可能会让人陷入过度关注的泥潭。
I'm torn because I wear it, and I like the data, but I also understand why it's it's a slippery slope.
你知道的，
You know,
挺有意思的，Ashley。
it's funny, Ashley.
你刚才还在说怎么用这个设备来指导日常生活，比如了解自己的身体感受之类的。
You were describing just a moment ago the idea of using the device to inform your day to day, how are you feeling, the whole thing.
我接触过不少做正念的人。
I work with a bunch of people that are like mindfulness folks.
对吧？
Right?
他们就说，你干嘛非得靠设备来告诉你这些？
And they're like, why do you need a device to tell you this?
你就不能稍微内省一下，感受一下身体的真实状态，早上醒来的时候，感觉自己休息好了，对一天充满积极的感觉吗？
Like, can you just be a little bit introspective and learn the way that your body is actually feeling and take stock in the morning of waking up, feeling like you've rested, feeling very positive about your day.
这确实有道理，我们可能可以
There's something to that that we could potentially
这也让我有点想把它摘下来了。
pushing me to maybe take it off too.
回到原始的方式。
Go back to analog.
嗯，我以前也是那样的。
Well, and I used to very much be that way.
我以前睡觉都不戴手表的。
Like, I used to not sleep with a watch.
只有跑步的时候才戴。
I only wore it while I ran.
直到我生了第二个孩子，睡眠严重不足，我才开始看那些数据。有一天早上我看了数据，突然之间，这就像成了我必须遵守的新规矩。
And it's only been since I had my second child and I was so sleep deprived that I just became I saw it, the data one morning, and then all of the sudden it was like this new rule I had to live by.
我和我丈夫会互相比较昨晚谁睡得更好，然后就会担心，哎呀，我昨晚深度睡眠不够，我会不会得老年痴呆啊。
My husband and I would compare who got better sleep last night and this fear like, oh no, I'm going to get dementia because I didn't have enough deep sleep last night.
这已经变成了一种执念，我意识到，就像我们现在聊的这样，我得放下它，回到那种无所谓的心态。
And it just has become this obsession that I'm realizing as we talk like this is I've got to let it go and get back to just like, it's fine.
你有两个小孩，你肯定会醒，但你依然能睡好，这没什么大不了的。
You have two small kids, like you're going to wake up and you can still sleep well and like, that's okay.
没事的。
It's fine.
对。
Yeah.
我想起阿里·克鲁做的那项关于睡眠不足心态的研究，长期来看，这种心态可能非常有害。
I I think about that study that Ali Crum did in that inadequacy mindset and how detrimental that can be long term.
而这一切都是被那些数字驱动的。
And it's being driven by those numbers.
对吧？
Right?
比如说，我很好奇，Trax，如果你回想一下，如果你没看到你的HRV数据下降，你当时会不会也觉得自己压力大但还好，或者觉得自己状态很差？
Like, I would be curious, Trax, if you thought back in time, if you didn't see your HRV tank, would you have also at the same time perhaps thought, like, I'm stressed, but I'm okay, or, like, I'm feeling really bad?
如果没有那个数字压在上面，是不是对你的冲击会小一些？
Like, would it have been less traumatic for you if you didn't also have that number on top of it?
你是不是可能会更有韧性一点，告诉自己我知道自己压力大。
Could you have been perhaps a little bit more resilient and say, I I know that I'm stressed.
我在旅行。
I'm traveling.
我在为马拉松训练，但我会没事的。
I'm training for this marathon, but I'm gonna be okay.
但反过来，你看着这个数字，心里却在想，我没事吧？
Where the converse happened where you're looking at this number and you're like, am I okay?
对吧。
Like Right.
是的。
Yep.
所以我肯定让情况变得更糟了。
So I'm sure I made it worse.
我肯定是的。
I'm sure I did.
这确实值得一说。
There's something to be said there.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yep.
那你合作的大多数人都不戴吗？
So do most people you work with not wear them?
各种情况都有。
It's a mix.
是混合的。
It's a mix.
我有一些
I have a
很多书呆子朋友，他们真的很喜欢数字，但我要说的是，他们每一个人，我们都聊过这个话题。
lot of nerdy friends that are just really into the numbers, but I will say every single one of them, we have all had this conversation.
即使他们是死忠的电子表格爱好者，你知道，他们每天早上都会把数据上传到云端，确保一切都在正确的轨道上。
Even if they are diehard spreadsheet people, you know, they're uploading their data into Cloud every morning to make sure that everything's going in the right direction.
天哪。
Oh my god.
他们也会经常说，我也是个普通人，有时候感觉真的很压抑，压力很大。
Will also often say, I'm I'm also just a human being, and sometimes it feels like really overwhelming and stressful.
对。
Yeah.
如果你把所有信息都交给AI，我觉得我们正在跨越很多界限。
If you're offloading all your information to AI, I mean, I feel like we're crossing lot.
我们开始越界了。
We're starting to cross some lines.
对。
Mhmm.
这完全是另一个话题，
That's a whole topic for
另一回事。
another thing.
不同的。
Different one.
是的。
Yes.
不同。
Different.
是的。
Yes.
瑞秋，非常感谢你今天抽出时间。
Rachel, thank you so much for your time today.
这次谈话让我受益匪浅。
This has been very enlightening.
太棒了。
Amazing.
我一直需要听专家告诉我，把它摘下来是没问题的。
I needed to hear an expert tell me that It's okay to take it off.
或者至少不用那么紧张。
Or just not to freak out.
你明白吗？
You know?
在这个数据至上的世界里，大家都喜欢一概而论，
Like, in this world that's so data focused, everyone makes these blanket assumptions,
而听到你说需要退一步，不要那样做，真的让人很欣慰。
and it's just it's nice to hear that you you need to step back and not do that.
我觉得说到这一点，我们作为这个领域的专家，也需要更好地告诉普通消费者或者使用设备的运动员，这里的界限在哪里？
I think that to that point too, we, as the experts in the space, also need to do a much better job of telling the general consumer or the athlete that's using the device, what are the guardrails here?
比如，你应该怎么解读这些数据？
Like, how should you be interpreting this data?
对。
Yes.
我觉得这些公司真的把这块给放弃了。
I think these companies really abdicate that space.
他们不太擅长教你如何使用这些数据，这就留下了一个真空地带，让那些网红或者随便编造一些方案的人来填补，说，哦，如果你的HRV是这样，那就意味着什么什么的。
They're not very good at showing you how to use that data, which leaves this vacuum of influencers or people that are kinda like making up these protocols or whatever to say, oh, if your HRV does this, then that means, you know, whatever is happening.
如果我们能更好地谈论这个领域的细微差别和背景，我觉得人们就能更好地使用这些设备，而不会让它们对心理健康、训练，甚至和伴侣的睡眠竞争造成负面影响。
And if we were a little bit better at talking about nuance and context in this space, I think that people would be able to use these devices without having it be a a detriment to their mental health, to their training, to their partner sleep competition.
所以我觉得，你知道，我一直这么说，我们作为专家，需要成为更好的科学传播者，因为如果我们不这样做，就会有人填补这个真空，而且通常他们是用一些基于恐惧的叙事来填补的。
So I think, you know, and I make this call all the time is that we, as experts, need to be better science communicators because if we don't, somebody fills the vacuum, and usually they fill the vacuum with some fear based narrative.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
我是说，很快问一下，他们不想吗？我只是好奇，你合作的那些可穿戴设备公司。
I mean, really quick, do they not want I'm just curious with the wearable people you work with.
他们不想把那些说明写进备注里吗？因为如果在我开始使用之前就有这些说明，那会很有帮助。
Do they not wanna put that in the notes or, like because it would be really helpful to have that before I start using it.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这些设备很多都存在本末倒置的问题，他们开始用这项技术是因为它新颖、有卖点，而不是因为他们真的把很多领域专家请进了团队。
I think there is a little bit of a cart before the horse situation here with many of these devices where they started to use this technology because it was novel, it was marketable before they really brought a lot of subject matter experts onto their teams.
所以现在他们有点在往回找补。
And so Now they're backtracking a little bit.
现在我们在往回找补。
Now we're backtracking.
我们在补课。
We're backfilling.
对。
Yeah.
所以，我要说的是，你知道，我确实和所有这些团队合作过。
So and and I will say, I you know, again, I work with all these teams.
他们有非常出色的科学家。
They have exceptional scientists.
但在他们开发这些设备和这些产品的时候，大多数基础团队里并没有这些科学家的参与。
The scientists weren't part of most of the foundational teams as they were building out these devices and these Right.
不同的市场。
Different markets.
大家听到了吧。
Heard it here, folks.
对。
Yeah.
你听到了吧。
You heard it here.
Rachele，非常感谢你抽出时间。
Thank you, Rachele, so much for your time.
你给了我们很多值得思考的东西。
You've given us a lot to think about.
太棒了。
So awesome.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这是我的荣幸。
My pleasure.
Trax，我脑子都转不过来了。
Trax, my head is spinning.
可以理解。
Understandably so.
对吧？
Right?
我是说，我以前以为自己对HRV了解得挺透彻的，包括它的含义、怎么解读以及它对我的影响，结果发现完全不是那么回事。
I mean, everything that I thought I knew about HRV, what it means, how to read it, how it impacts me is not what I thought.
而且实际情况肯定比我想象的要好得多。
And it's definitely better than I thought.
这对我来说改变真的很大，这也是为什么我们管它们叫‘大猫’的原因。
It's changed a lot for me, and this is why we call them the big cats.
哥们儿，我也是这么觉得。
Dude, me too.
我觉得过去这一年，我真的开始学会倾听身体的声音了。对。
I I feel like I over the last year, I feel like I've really departed the place of listening to my body Yes.
并且真正地去关注它。
And really paying attention.
然后事情就发生了。
And it happened.
我几乎都没察觉到它是怎么发生的。
It almost happened without me noticing it.
这就是最疯狂的地方，因为就像你说的，我们随时都有那么多数据在手边，所以我很容易就陷入了过度关注睡眠的习惯，甚至都没意识到，哦，这对我有负面影响，以至于我不戴手表睡觉都会觉得不舒服，这太疯狂了，因为不戴手表睡觉本来应该是没问题的。
And that's the crazy part because we do, to your point, have so much data at our fingertips all the time that it has been so easy for me to slip into this habit of obsessing over my sleep and not even realizing like, oh, that's negatively impacting me to the extent that, like, I feel some discomfort going to sleep without my watch, which is crazy because, like, it should be fine to sleep without your watch.
对。
Right.
我们现在的情况就是这样。
Here's where we are.
我是说，我之前一直戴着它。
I mean, I've I had it on.
我对它着了迷。
I got obsessed with it.
我把它摘了。
I took it off.
我重新评估了一下，然后又戴上了，以为我在用一种新的、更好的方式使用它。
I reassessed, and I put it back on thinking I had I was look using it in a new better way.
但说实话，我还是不太行。
Still, I'm really not that good.
有它到底是好还是不好？
Is it good to have or not?
我，我，我倾向于不要。
I don't I I'm leaning towards no.
我知道。
I know.
而且，就像，我
And, like, I
有这种心态。
have this mentality.
你知道，这有点像开玩笑。
You know, it's like kind of a joke.
就像，如果你把它放到Strava上，如果你不放到Strava上，就不算数。
Like, if you put it on Srava, if you don't put it on Srava, doesn't count.
这有点开玩笑，但就是另一个地方，你可以记录东西、查看东西、比较东西，知道你是否达到了每周的里程数。
And it's somewhat of a joke, but it's just like another place where you're able to log things and look at things and compare things and know if you've hit your weekly mileage.
我是说，那完全是另一个话题了。
I mean, that's a whole another topic.
Fleet Feet是Still Running的创始赞助商。
Fleet Feet is a founding sponsor of Still Running.
我们很喜欢有Fleet Feet作为合作伙伴，因为节目很大一部分内容是关于更好地理解身体给我们的信号。
And we love having Fleet Feet as a partner because so much of the show is about trying to better understand what our bodies are telling us.
有时候这个问题很大很复杂，有时候它只是从像“我的鞋真的合脚吗”这样简单的问题开始。
Sometimes that question is big and complicated, and sometimes it starts with something as simple as, are my shoes actually right for my feet?
我们也很欣赏Fleet Feet深深扎根于社区。
What we also really appreciate is that Fleet Feet is deeply rooted in community.
他们相信跑步能改变一切，就像我们一样，这种信念体现在他们为跑者服务的方式上。
They believe that running changes everything just like we do, and that belief shows up in how they show up for runners.
Fleet Feet不仅仅是为某一类跑者或某个跑步阶段而存在。
Fleet Feet's not just there for one type of runner or one moment in a journey.
他们陪伴跑者的每一个阶段，无论你是第一次系上鞋带，还是休息后重新开始，或是为某个大目标训练，或者只是想在日常生活中保持坚持。
They're there for every stage of it, Whether you're lacing up for your first run, coming back after time off, training for something big, or just trying to stay consistent in everyday life.
在Fleet Feet，专业的装备顾问还会用Fit ID三维技术来了解你的脚型，帮你找到适合你步态的鞋子。
At Fleet Feet, expert outfitters also use Fit ID three d technology to help understand your feet and find shoes that match the way you move.
不管你是为了比赛训练，还是遛狗、追着孩子跑，或者只是想重新开始运动，Fleet Feet都是你找下一双跑鞋的最佳去处。
Whether you're training for a race, you're walking the dog, you're chasing your kids around, or just trying to get out the door again, Fleet Feet is the best place to find your next pair of running shoes.
你可以在fleetfeet.com找到你附近的Fleet Feet门店。
You can find your local Fleet Feet at fleetfeet.com.
去我们的网站，点击“购买Fleet Feet”就能找到你的下一双鞋，或者找到离你最近的店。
Head to our website and click shop Fleet Feet to find your next pair of shoes or to find a store near you.
你知道吗，这一切真的让我重新思考训练这件事，我有点想找个人聊聊。
You know, all of this is really making me rethink training altogether, and I kinda wanna talk to someone.
如果在这个时代还能找到不用手表训练的人，你觉得呢？
If we can find anyone in this day and age who trains without a watch, what do you think?
你这么说真有意思。
It's funny that you say it.
我确实想到一个人，他不用任何可穿戴设备的数据。
I actually do have one person I'm thinking of who does not use any wearable data.
你这一直都在藏着掖着呢，Trax。
Like You've been holding out this whole time, Trax.
是谁啊？
Who is it?
我们现在能给她打个电话吗？
And can we call her right now?
希望她有空接电话。
I mean, hopefully, she's there.
我真的很想听听她的想法。
I I really wanna pick her brain.
我的朋友卡拉·古彻，奥运选手、妈妈、跑者、大忙人，她什么都不用，就靠自己的内在数据。
My friend Kara Goucher, Olympic athlete, mom, runner, busy woman, doesn't use anything but her own intrinsic data.
哥们，我们都认识卡拉·古彻。
Dude, we all know who Kara Goucher is.
那太好了。
That's perfect.
要不我们现在就给她打个电话吧。
Can you let's call her right now.
行，现在就打。
Let's call her.
特别高兴今天能请到卡拉·古歇尔做客。她曾是职业跑手、奥运选手、作家、播客主、电视评论员，还是位妈妈，真是身兼数职。
So excited to have Kara Goucher with us today, former pro runner, Olympian, author, podcaster, TV commentator, mom, just wears a million hats.
欢迎卡拉！
Welcome, Kara.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
我很高兴能来到这里。
I'm excited to be here.
太棒了。
Awesome.
我和卡拉是在2016年左右认识的，当时她是华莱士的职业跑者，而我是他们常规队的一员。
Kara and I met back in, I think, like, 2016 when she was a pro runner for Wazal, and I was on their regular team.
我们就是在那里认识的，这些年一直保持联系，到城里的时候也会联系对方，就这样慢慢建立了友谊，一直走到今天。
And we basically connected there and kept in touch over the years and reached out when we were in town and basically formed a friendship that has brought us to this point.
没错。
That's right.
一起跑了很多步，聊了很多天，喝了很多咖啡。
Lots of running, lots of talking, lots of coffee.
咖啡喝得可多了。
Tons of coffee.
你一辈子都在跑步。
You've been a runner your whole life.
你从小就开始跑了。
You started when you were young.
到现在还在跑。
You are still running today.
我在想，你年轻的时候，应该没有GPS手表或者什么高级装备吧，说实话，我知道你多大年纪。
I'm imagining when you were younger, you didn't have a GPS watch or anything fancy, if I'm being honest with how old you are, which I think I know.
所以那时候你跑步更多是靠感觉，相信自己的数据，还有用分段配速来跑。
And so you probably ran a lot more by feel and trusting your data and using splits.
等你年纪大了，成了职业选手，也慢慢接触到了各种新技术和设备，你有没有换过手表？
As you got older and became a pro and sort of evolved into technology and all the things that became available to us, did you start to did you change and wear a different watch?
你有没有开始记录这些数据？
Did you start tracking that data?
随着这些工具越来越普及，你的训练方式有没有做出调整？
Did you do things differently as they became available to you?
我刚跑步那会儿，就戴着一块Swatch手表。教练会说：去跑三十分钟吧。我就回一句：好嘞。
So I when I started running, I would just wear my swatch watch, and my coach would say, like, go run thirty minutes, and I'd be like, okay.
那时候是三点二十分。
It's 03:20.
我们就定个时间，比如三点四十五或者三点三十五之类的，到时候再折返。
We'll flip at, you know, 03:45 or 03:35 or whatever.
后来我高二那年，拿到了全国锦标赛的参赛资格。赛前有个热身跑，大家都开始用Timex手表计时了。
And then when I was a sophomore in high school, I qualified for this national championship, and they had this pre race shakeout, and everyone started their Timexes.
我当时就懵了，心想：啥玩意儿？
And I was like, what?
这居然还是个正经东西？
That's a thing?
所以那年圣诞节我就入手了一块天美时手表。
So I ended up getting a Timex for Christmas that year.
我跟你们讲这个故事，就是想说明我在数据穿戴设备这块儿，真的是落后了一大截。
So, like, I'm just telling this story to share that I'm, like, really behind on the, like, data wearable situation.
等一下。
Wait.
你戴的那块表和天美时有什么不同？
What was the watch that you had that was different from a Timex?
我就戴那种普通的斯沃琪手表。
I would just wear, like, a regular Swatch watch.
就是普通的手表。
Like like a regular watch.
这就是我们那一代人的特点，Ashley。
That's our generation, Ashley.
好的。
Okay.
那 Swatch 手表是什么？
So what's a Swatch watch?
我的意思是，它是最酷的手表，而且它就是一块普通的手表。
I mean, it's the coolest watch ever, and it's just a watch.
不是那种电子表。
It's not a digital watch.
就是那种
It's like
正经的手表，不过带子是塑料的。
a legit watch, but with a plastic band.
指针式的。
Hands.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
哦，它是不是有那种魔术贴的表带？
Oh, and it had, like it did it have a Velcro strap?
没有。
No.
它是塑料表带的。
It had a plastic strap.
对。
Yeah.
所以，就像我教练说的，比如我们在跑道上训练，他就会喊每圈的时间，我就能凭身体感觉到。
So I would just like with my coach would say, like, if we were doing a workout on the track, he would just yell the splits, and I would just feel it in my body.
然后如果他说，我要你跑四十分钟，我就会看一下时间，然后我们跑出去，二十分钟的时候折返。
And then like, if he would say, I want you to run forty minutes, I'd literally look at what time it was, and we'd go run and flip at twenty minutes.
我真的是……所以那个天美时手表挺酷的，因为就像，哇，真的吗。
I literally And so the Timex was cool because it was like, oh, wow.
就像，我可以按一下开始，它就会告诉我们什么时候折返。
Like, I can like start it, and it'll tell us when to flip.
不过，是啊，我就是不太在意那些东西。
But, yeah, I just didn't care about that kind of stuff.
后来上了大学，我跟着一位教练跑，叫马克·韦特莫尔，他老是强调内在数据。
And then when I got to college, I ran for a coach, Mark Wetmore, who's really talked about intrinsic data all the time.
就是说，你得能感觉到它。
Like, you have to be able to feel it.
你得知道。
You have to know.
你甚至不能依赖，有时候你连分段计时都靠不上。
You can't even rely like, there's times in your life when you won't even be able to rely on splits.
你得感受你的身体能承受什么。
You have to feel the what your body's capable of.
然后几年后，我在为耐克跑步，他们推出了第一版，我都不记得叫什么了，耐克加手表还是什么？
And then years later, I was running for Nike and they came out with their first version of I don't even remember what it was called, Nike Plus watch or something?
哦，我也有一个那种的。
And Oh, I had one of those.
对。
Yeah.
它们挺大的，黑色的，带点荧光色，我记得我在纽约跑半程马拉松，和阿布迪·阿拉马詹一起去公园跑步，我当时还戴着天美时。
They're like really big, like, they were black with like a neon, and I remember I was running a half marathon in New York City, and Abdi Aramajan and I went out to the park to run together, and I was just just had like a a Timex still.
他说：“你怎么不戴你那个手表？”
And he's like, why aren't you wearing your other watch?
他问我计划跑多少，我说我打算跑十英里什么的。
He's like he or before he asked me what I had on tap, and I was like, I I had a 10 mile run or something.
他说：“那你怎么知道跑了多远？”
And he's like, well, how are you gonna know how far you
跑了多远？
ran?
我就想，我这辈子是怎么知道的？
And I was like, how have I known my whole life?
就是靠感觉，你知道的，所以我就是能感觉到自己跑步的配速。
Like, it's based, you know, it so I was like, I must I can kind of feel the pace that I'm running.
那准吗？
Was it accurate?
当然不准。
Of course not.
但长期以来我们就是这么做的。
But like, that's just how we did it for so long.
就是凭感觉，比如我觉得自己跑的是七分三十秒的配速，或者八分钟的配速之类的。
It was based on like, oh, I feel like I'm going seven thirties or I feel like I'm going eight minute pace or whatever.
所以，最后我确实买了一个佳明手表。
So anyway, the only thing I eventually did get, like, a Garmin, I guess.
有一次，我买了一个。
At one point, I got one.
但即便如此，我真正在意的只有心率。
But even then, the only thing I've ever really cared about is heart rate.
而且在我努力争取第三次参加奥运会的时候，我确实经常用心率来确保自己没有过度训练。
And I did use heart rate a lot when I was trying to make my third Olympic team, just to make sure I wasn't overdoing it.
但即便如此，我也不确定。
But even then, I don't know.
我还是更依赖自己的感觉。
It did I just still was learning more on how I felt.
所以我可能是最不讲究的那种人，你懂吧？
So I'm like I'm like the worst, you know?
我现在就戴个苹果手表。
Like, I just wear an Apple Watch now.
我之前有个高驰。
I I had a Coros.
它真的很好用。
It's really nice.
我儿子把它拿走了。
My son took it.
没关系。
It's fine.
我就戴着我的手表，完全凭感觉来。
And I just wear my watch and I totally go on how I feel.
那你为什么一度对心率感兴趣？
So why did you get interested in heart rate at one point?
你为什么决定去追踪
And why did you decide to track
那个？
that?
我的教练是马克·韦特莫尔。
So my coach was Mark Wetmore.
我回到他那里，他那时有点迷上了心率数据。
I went back to him, and he had gotten kind of into heart rate data.
而且主要是在长跑的时候。
And it was mostly on long runs.
他希望我们把心率保持在一定水平。
He wanted us to keep it at a certain level.
你知道，对我来说，我发现一个好的长跑通常我的心率平均在一百五十五左右。
And, you know, like for me, I did find out that like, a good a good long run for me was typically my heart rate would average around one fifty five.
如果心率比那高很多，那就说明我可能要么是快生病了，要么是跑得太猛了。
And if it was a lot higher than that, then it showed me I was either like coming down with something or running too hard.
但说实话，这并没有改变我当时在跑步时的做法。
But to be totally honest, it didn't change what I did in the minute.
都是事后我才发现，哦，我的心率有点高。
It was like afterwards, I'd be like, oh, my heart rate was a little high.
我可能快生病了，但当时我并没有放慢速度。
I I must be coming down with something, but I didn't slow down in the moment.
所以我也说不准。
So I don't know.
我觉得我是在各种小玩意儿流行之前长大的，而且我又是那种容易对东西上瘾的人。
I just think I grew up before all the gadget ry, and then I'm also a person who can get really obsessed with stuff.
所以一想到要追踪睡眠分数什么的，我就害怕，因为我会过度分析到死。
And so the thought of like tracking my sleep score or anything like that terrifies me because I would overanalyze it to death.
这基本上就是我和Ashley在做的事。
Which is basically what Ashley and I do.
对吧？
If I'm right?
我们确实是这样。
I mean, we do.
我觉得这有很多发挥空间。
I mean, I I think there's like a lot of room for it.
但我知道在我自己的生活中，就像Josh Kerr刚跑出英里世界纪录，他每天都会看自己的数据。
I just know in my life, it would be like, Josh Kerr just ran the world record in the mile, and he was like talking about his data and looking at it every day.
我就想，那对我来说是最糟糕的事，因为如果我那天醒来，数据不完美，我就会想，好吧，今天肯定不行了，而不是相信之前所有的训练和准备。
And I'm like, that would be the worst thing because I would wake up that day, and if it wasn't perfect, I'd be like, well, I guess it's not gonna happen today, instead of trusting all of the training and all of the preparation that's brought you to that moment.
所以我睡觉从来都不戴任何东西。
So I've never slept with anything on.
我也没戴过那种光环戒指之类的东西。
I've never worn an aura ring.
我也不太清楚。
And I don't know.
我觉得你嘴上开玩笑说自己是最差的，但回过头看，你可能比那些现在对可穿戴设备数据越来越依赖的人过得更好。
I think that's I think you say you're jokingly saying you're the worst, but I think in hindsight, you're probably better off than a lot of people out there who are now becoming so dependent on wearable data.
我觉得吧，我以前是个挺不错的选手。虽然我不太擅长计时赛，但我很会打战术。
I think too, like, I was a really good I was never a very good time trialer, but I was a very good tactical racer.
我觉得这就是我的强项所在。我能敏锐地感觉到时机，比如‘哦，现在我可以加速了’，而不是纠结于‘这感觉快不快’或者‘那感觉慢不慢’。
And I think that's just sort of where my strength is, is that I could really feel like, oh, no, I can move right now, instead of getting caught up in like, this feels faster, this feels slow.
我真正依赖的，其实就是这种与生俱来的技能。
I really could rely on it was just like a skill set that I had.
所以这也让我这辈子都抗拒数据那一套，因为我真的非常了解自己的身体。
And so that has lent me to sort of resist any sort of data for the rest of my life because I'm just like, I know my body really well.
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