你是计划型还是随性型？

嗨，我是凯莉·杨。

Hi, I'm Kelly Yang.

我是凯蒂·卡梅洛。

And I'm Katie Camello.

你正在收听StoryKind，我们的新播客。

And you are listening to StoryKind, our new podcast.

嗨，凯特。

Hi, Kate.

哦，凯莉。

Oh, Kelly.

这太令人兴奋了，对吧？

This is so exciting, isn't it?

这太令人兴奋了。

This is so exciting.

我们的第一集。

Our first episode.

所以凯特，你这一周过得怎么样？

So Kate, how's your week been going?

你在创作方面进展如何？

Where are you creatively?

我昨天，也就是新年的第一天，列了一份我想做的项目清单。

So I have I spent yesterday, the first day of the year, making a list of projects that I want to work on.

我刚完成了一个小故事，明天准备开始一个新的。

I just finished a little story, and I'm going to start another one tomorrow.

我现在就处于这个状态。

That's where I am.

你呢？

What about you?

天啊，关于这个我有太多问题想问了。

Oh, gosh, I have so many questions to ask about that.

我刚刚完成了一次修改，真的很难。

I have just finished a revision, which was really hard.

真的，真的很难。

It was really, really hard.

但我为自己完成了它感到非常自豪。

And I'm so proud of myself for getting it done.

所以我现在只是享受一下，你知道的，几周的休息时间，然后再投入到下一件事中。

And so I'm just enjoying, you know, a few weeks off before I have to head into something else.

但凯特，既然你告诉我你刚开始了新故事，我想问你，你是那种提前规划的人吗？

But Kate, now that you've told me that you've just started a new story, I want to ask you, are you a planner?

还是即兴创作型的？

Or are you a pantser?

你是如何构思故事的？

How do you develop your stories?

你知道吗，凯莉，这是我们最喜欢聊的话题之一。

You know, Kelly, this is one of our favorite things to talk about.

第一次你和我一起参加小组讨论时，有人问了这个问题。

And the first time you and I were on a panel together, somebody asked this question.

我记得你当时转过头看着我，脸上一副难以置信的震惊表情。

And I have this memory of you turning to me with a look of outraged disbelief on your face.

我说，我从来没有为任何故事列过提纲。

And I said, I have never outlined a story.

如果让我先列提纲，我根本写不出故事来。

I couldn't write a story if I outlined it.

你看，就连现在，你又这样了。

See, even now, there you are.

你看着我，一脸困惑：你在说什么？

And you looked at me like, what are you talking about?

我简直不敢相信，这太不可思议了，对吧？

I How I can't believe that because that's so incredible, right?

一本书那么长。

A book is so long.

要花好几个月呢。

It's so many months.

这要花很多小时。

It's so many hours.

你是怎么做到的？

How do you do it?

你怎么能即兴完成呢？

How do you how do you just do it on the fly?

你怎么能在脑子里记住所有东西？

How do you keep track of everything in your head?

我觉得这简直太令人惊叹了。

I think that's just it's amazement.

我会简短地回答这个问题，但接下来我们会谈谈你如何通过提纲来创作，因为我很钦佩这种方式。

Well, and I'm going to answer this very briefly, but then we're going to talk about how you do it by outlining because I admire that.

我只是知道，那不是我能工作的方式。

I just know that that's not the way that I could work.

我想跟所有人，我们的听众们谈谈，没有对错之分，每个人都有自己的方式。

And I want to talk to everybody, our listeners, about how there's no right or wrong way to do it.

但我们确实会这样。

But we'll we'll Absolutely.

别把这事了结了。

There's no finish up with that.

但让我说明一下，我通常从一句话、一个画面和一个大致的方向感开始。

But let me just say, so I start with a sentence or an image and a very general feeling of where I want to go.

这就像走在一条黑暗的走廊里，前方有一线微光。

It's kind of like walking down a dark hallway and there's a little strip of light.

哦，我喜欢这个说法。

Oh, I love that.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，我该怎么做到这一点呢？

And so I and how do I do that?

我每天慢慢写两页，循序渐进地引导自己，在写作过程中逐步发现故事。

I do it slowly by writing two pages a day and by coaxing myself through it and discovering the story as I go.

所以这感觉并不特别令人安心。

And so it is like, it's not super comforting.

我宁愿知道我要去哪里。

I would rather know where I'm going.

但我发现，我的大脑讲述故事的唯一方式就是在讲述的过程中去发现故事。

But I find this is the only way that my mind can tell a story is to discover the story as I'm telling it.

所以告诉我关于什么

So tell me about what

我的天哪，这听起来太美妙了。

is my Oh my god, that sounds so beautiful.

我得说，即使有计划，有时你仍然不完全知道最终会走向何方。

I have to say even with with a plan, sometimes you still don't know where you're fully going.

这是因为故事会变化，你会逐渐了解你的角色，你原本以为他们会做的事和他们实际做的事会不同，你知道，各种情况。

And that's because the story changes and you get to know your characters and what you thought they would do versus what they're actually doing, you know, different things.

你会想，你为什么这样表现？

You're like, why are you acting this way?

这就是乐趣，对吧？

And that's the joy, right?

这就是这种创作过程中的乐趣。

That is the joy in this creative endeavor.

这正是它如此困难的原因之一。

It's one of the reasons why it's so hard.

但这也是它如此令人兴奋的原因，因为并不是一切都已计划好。

But it's one of the reasons why it's so exciting because it's not all planned out.

我们不是在制造笔之类的东西。

You know, we're not making like pens or something.

这是一种富有创造力的动态艺术形式。

It's, you know, it's a creative moving art form.

所以我确实会做计划。

So I do plan.

我尽量规划，尽可能把一切都安排好。

I try to plan every I try to plan out as much as I can.

而且，我还会偏离我的计划。

And again, I will deviate from my plan.

所以我不知道我的计划有多完美，但我确实会努力构思，比如，这是触发事件。

So I don't know how perfect my plan is, but definitely I try to come up with, all right, here's what's going to here's the inciting moment.

这是推动一切开始的关键点。

Here's the thing that's going to set everything into motion.

对。

Right.

然后我通常会思考故事会如何结束。

Then I usually then go into how is it going to end?

因为我真的需要先弄清楚结局，然后才能构建中间部分，你懂我的意思吧。

Because I really need to kind of figure out the ending first before I can build the middle part, if that makes sense.

嘿，凯莉，你在小组讨论时脸上的表情，现在又出现了，那是怎么回事？

Hey, Kelly, the look that you had on your face on the panel, so look, have now, it's like what?

你知道吗，你是先想好结局的。

You know, you figure out the end before.

我的意思是，我实在无法想象这种做法。

I mean, I just I can't conceive of it.

所以请继续说吧。

So go ahead.

请继续。

Go ahead.

嗯，有时候结局可能会改变，但通常结局是不会变的。

Well, sometimes the ending could change, but usually the ending doesn't change.

通常来说，结局是支撑我完成中间部分的动力，因为我需要有所期待。

And usually the ending is what gets me through the middle part because I need something to look forward to.

所以在我的脑海里，因为我已经大致设想了结局，我就会想，好吧，我能做到。

So in my mind, because I've kind of visualized the ending, I'm like, okay, I can do this.

我觉得这个中间部分是值得的。

I this middle part is worth it.

这份辛苦是值得的，因为写书的中间部分确实很难。

It's worth the drudgery because it's hard writing the middle of the book.

我的意思是，我想问你，你最喜欢写哪一部分？

I mean, I want to ask you, what is your favorite part to write?

是开头、中间还是结尾？

Is it the beginning, the middle or the end?

我一会儿再回答这个问题，但我想先回到旁支话题上，就像我们刚才讨论的，做这件事没有对错之分。

I'm going to answer that in a minute, but I want to do I want to go back to the sidebars like as we're talking about all this, this thing of that there's no right or wrong way to do it.

只要你觉得自己有故事要讲，想写作，那么你唯一可能犯的错就是不去尝试。

And just that if you feel like you have a story to tell, if you feel like you want to write, the only thing that you can do wrong is to not try to do it.

除此之外，这完全是一段个人的旅程。

Otherwise, it is very much this individual journey.

对我们每个人来说都截然不同，对吧？

Is so different for all of us, right?

所以，如果你正在听，也许你对如何讲故事感兴趣。

And so if you feel and we think if you're listening now, maybe you are interested in how to tell a story.

如果你觉得需要或想要去做这件事，那么这就是你自己的探索。

If you feel like you need or want to do this, then it is your discovery to make.

我们在这里陪伴你，帮你找到如何讲故事的方法。

We're here to keep you company as you figure out how to write a story.

所以，我最喜欢的部分，凯莉，我这就回答你，我马上说。

So my favorite part, I'm going to answer that Kelly, I'm going to answer it.

我最喜欢创作过程中的那个阶段，就是当我有了一个初稿，通常是在我重写了四遍之后，内容终于够通顺了，这时我会觉得，好吧，现在我只是在做精细调整。

My favorite part of the process is when I have a rough draft and that's usually after I've rewritten things four times it makes sense enough that then I feel like, okay, now I'm just working to fine tune.

所以我最喜欢第五遍和第六遍修改，因为那时我已经知道故事会如何发展。

So I like doing the fifth and sixth draft the best because then I know what's going to happen.

而且我不再那么担心了。

And I don't feel as worried.

是的，有道理。

Yeah, make sense.

你知道吗？我最喜欢的部分也是修改。

And you know what, that's my favorite part too is revision.

我爱修改。

I love revision.

我们将在未来的节目中更深入地探讨如何进行修改。

And we're going to get more into revision how we revise in future episodes.

但目前，我会说，这正是我最喜欢的环节。

But for now, I'll say that is my favorite.

我总是告诉孩子们，写作就是重写。

And I always tell kids writing is rewriting.

我知道。

I know that.

是的，没错。

Yeah, yeah.

你知道吗，不仅孩子们需要听到这句话，成年人也需要听到。

And you know, it's not just kids that need to hear that adults need to hear it too.

我认为人们觉得，如果我应该写出来，那它第一次就应该写对。

I think people think, Oh, if I'm supposed to do it, it's going to come out right the first time.

我的意思是，一旦你有了初稿，才是真正开始理解这个故事的时候。

I mean, because once you have a draft, that's when you're just starting to really understand the story.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

在攀登山顶的过程中，你终于能看清全局，看到一切，从而判断：哦，这里有一条更轻松的路，或者我可以在这里抄个近道，或者直接删掉这一部分。

On a climb to the top of the mountain, you have the lay of the land you get, you can see everything now finally, and you can determine, oh, well, there's an easier path to get up here or I can take a shortcut here or I can cut out this part here.

但在到达山顶之前，你仍然在摸索前行。

But before you get to that top of the mountain, I mean, you're still feeling your way.

对吧？

Right?

当然。

Absolutely.

有一次我边走边为正在写的那个故事发愁，结果撞到了一个小小的机械零件，像是个螺母和螺栓。

Once I was walking along worrying about a story that I was working on And I bumped into this kind of little mechanical piece of like it was a nut and bolt.

我把它捡了起来，因为这让我想到：哦，原来有人用这个零件组装出了什么东西。

And I picked it up because to me it was a reminder, oh, okay, like somebody built something with this.

是的。

Yeah.

创作故事也是同样的道理。

And it's the same thing to make a story.

这纯粹是工作。

It's just work.

就是准时出现，然后完成工作。

It's showing up and doing the work.

没错，就是出现并构建，我们在打造一件能让人哭泣、微笑，以及体验所有情感的东西，对吧？

Absolutely showing up it is it is building, we're building a thing that will make people cry and smile and all of the emotions, right?

一种充满情感的生物。

Emotional, you know, creature.

好了，说到生物，我们来聊今天这个有趣的问题吧。

All right, speaking of creatures, let's get into our silly question today.

我们收到了一位粉丝的问题：温尼·迪克西身上有跳蚤吗？

So we got a question from one of your fans, which is does Winn Dixie have fleas?

我不认为Winn Dixie有跳蚤。

I don't think Winn Dixie has fleas.

有时读者会通过出版社给我写信问这个问题，我不知道为什么大家这么在意。

I get this question sometimes when readers write me at the publisher and I don't know why it's such a preoccupation.

他刚来的时候可能带着跳蚤，但我认为Opal确保他现在已经没有跳蚤了。

He might've arrived with fleas, but I think that Opal makes sure that he does not have fleas anymore.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

不过我喜欢这个问题的地方在于，它表明读者对这个故事投入了很深的感情。

And you know what I love about the question though, is that it shows how invested the reader is in the story.

这就像是真实发生的一样，对吧？

It's just like it is reality, right?

是的。

Yes.

温尼·迪克西是真实的，奥帕尔也是真实的。

Winn Dixie is real and Opal is real.

而你和我，这正是我眼中故事的魔力所在——你进入一个世界，这些狗、这个人，都变成了朋友，你知道的，

And you and that's the magic for me of storytelling is that you enter a world and these dogs, this person, they become friends, you know,

这难道不神奇吗？

isn't that magical?

我的意思是，你有没有想过，你会写出一个如此深刻地触动几代人的故事，让人们彻夜难眠，担心你创造的那只狗有没有跳蚤。

I mean, did you ever think you would write a story that resonated so deeply with generations of people where they stay up at night wondering whether the dog you created has fleas.

你得让我别笑了。

You got to make me stop laughing.

是的，没错，是这样的。

Yeah, no, is.

这是世界上最幸运的人才能拥有的机会——去讲故事。

This is where the luckiest people in the world to get to do this to tell stories.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的，我觉得这充分体现了你故事的力量。

Yeah, I think it really speaks to the power of your stories.

所以我们想用一个关于我们最喜欢的老师或图书管理员的小故事来结束。

So we want to wrap up with a quick story about our favorite teacher or librarian.

这次我来先说。

So I will start this time.

我一个很有趣的故事是五年级的瓦尤索老师。

My really fun story to tell is Mr.

五年级的瓦尤索老师。

Vayuso in fifth grade.

我有一位很棒的老师，名叫瓦尤索老师。

I had a wonderful teacher named Mr.

他喜欢在课堂上举办小型旧货义卖。

Vayuso, and he loved to run a little mini garage sale in class.

所以他就会拿一些小饰品之类的东西。

So he would take little trinkets and stuff like that.

就是他家里一些非常随机的杂物。

Just really random stuff from his house.

我想他可能真的在考虑搬家，于是就把车库里的东西搬出来，用一整年发给我们的假钱进行拍卖。

I think he was actually possibly contemplating a move, but he took the moves from his garage and he would auction them off using fake money that he handed out through the course of the whole year.

我们会得到瓦尤索币。

We would get Vayuso bucks.

而瓦尤索币的妙处在于，我们从来不需要还回去。

And the great thing with his Vayuso bucks is we never had to give them back.

所以出现了严重的通货膨胀。

So we had massive inflation.

我的意思是，到了学期末，简直就像：那个橡皮擦，我出五百万买。

I mean, by the end of the class, it was like, I'll take that eraser for $5,000,000.

但这非常有趣，也让我们更了解他。

But it was so fun and it was a way for us to get to know him.

我的意思是，他有各种各样的有趣东西，盘子、订书机，你知道的，棒球，他有什么就有什么。

I mean, he had all kinds of interesting things, plates, staplers, you know, baseballs, whatever he had.

这太有趣了。

And it was so fun.

多年后，我问他这些东西都是从哪儿来的，他说其中一些是他家里的。

And years later, I asked him where he got all the stuff and he said some some of it was in his house.

他当时在考虑搬家，但有些东西是他直接从一元店买的。

He was contemplating a move, but some of it he also just bought from the Dollar Tree.

我太喜欢这个故事了。

I love that so much.

我本来想问你，你后来找到他了吗？

I was gonna say to you, did you ever find him?

显然你找到了，因为对我来说，这就是我最喜爱的故事类型。

Clearly you did, because to me that's like when I think of my favorite stories.

我三年级的老师叫Ms.

So my third grade teacher was named Ms.

斯库皮卡。

Skupica.

我们制作了一个公告板，上面剪贴了各种水下生物。

And we made a bulletin board where we cut out all these underwater creatures.

然后我们需要给公告板起个名字，一个标题。

And then we needed a name, a title for the bulletin board.

经过很多讨论，我想出了'深蓝海洋之谜'这个名字。

And, there's a lot of discussion and I came up with mysteries of the deep blue sea.

凯莉，我现在61岁了，那是我8岁时的事，已经过去很多年了。

Now, Kelly, I am 61 years old and that was how many years ago I was eight.

我至今还记得亲手剪出那些字母并贴上去的情景，对我来说意义非凡。

And that I can still remember getting those letters cut out by hand and put up there with the, I mean, it meant everything to me.

我时常想起这件事。

And I think about that.

那是我第一次'出版'作品，你知道，就是那个'深蓝海洋之谜'。

It was the first time I was in print, know, mysteries of the deep blue sea.

那位三年级老师送的这份礼物真是太棒了。

That was a great gift the third grade teacher.

我可以讲很多关于老师和图书管理员的故事，他们以多种方式改变了我的人生。

And I could tell stories about teachers and librarians and how they have changed my life in a multiplicity of ways.

但我们就从这个说起吧，我们也希望听到听众分享那些在课堂上表现卓越的老师和图书管理员的故事。

But let's start with that one, we also hope that we'll hear from listeners about teachers that are doing amazing things in their classrooms and librarians too.

是的。

Yes.

如果你有关于你最喜欢的老师或图书管理员的故事，想让我们为他们点赞，请发送邮件到 kellyangauthorgmail dot com。

So if you have a story about your favorite teacher librarian, you want us to give a shout out to please email them to us at kellyangauthorgmail dot com.

或者如果你有关于写作的问题，我们也乐意在播客中为你解答，任何奇怪的问题都可以。

Or if you have a writing related question, we're happy to answer those on our podcast or any kind of silly question as well.

凯特和我都喜欢奇怪的问题。

Kate and I love silly questions.

我喜欢

I love

逗凯特笑。

to make Kate laugh.

她的笑声最棒了，听起来特别有趣。

She just has the best laugh and it's so fun to hear.

非常感谢大家的收听，我们下周再见。

Thank you so much for listening and we will see you next week.

下周见。

See you next week.

谢谢。

Thank you.