第三集：大卫·贝伦德斯

甚至在一家公司内部，你可能会遇到两种不同的产品和两个不同的采购团队，他们与你的合作方式也可能不同。

And and it so even within one company, you might have two different products and two different buying teams, they might engage with you differently.

现在这些差异正在逐渐融合，但当你站在我们这一边时，这种动态确实很有趣。

Those are starting to converge now, but it's an interesting dynamic when you're sitting on our side of it.

所以我一直告诉我的团队，我们的理想是建立伙伴关系。

So what I've always told my team is our dream is partnerships.

我们喜欢成本加成模式。

We love cost plus.

我们喜欢开放透明的交易，这种模式能为我们带来让股东满意的股本回报。

We love open transparent trading that allows us a return on equity that's acceptable to our shareholders.

如果我们能实现这一点，我们愿意敞开账本，分享我们所有的信息，并从头到尾支持对方。

And if we can if we can achieve that, we're happy to open up our books, share all the information that we have and support somebody from a to z.

这些才是我们在市场上真正希望成为赢家、抢占市场份额的合作伙伴，因为这意味着他们显然会从我们这里采购更多。

And those are the partners that we actually in the marketplace want to be the winners and gain market share because that means they're obviously going to be buying more from us.

话虽如此，我认为监管环境正在迫使那些原本更偏向交易性质的大公司——即使他们曾通过合作委员会等形式参与，但本质上仍是交易导向的——逐渐接受伙伴关系这一理念。

Having said that, I do think that the regulatory environment, whether big companies who have been more transactional in nature and maybe through the partnership board around but were truly more transactional, I think they're getting forced into this idea of partnership.

而且随着咖啡贸易商数量减少，随着行业整合，能够真正开展这项业务的人越来越少，他们几乎被迫与我们合作，不得不与我们合作。

And also as the coffee traders contract, as we go through consolidation and there's fewer and fewer of us who can actually do the work, they're almost getting to a position where they're forced to partner with us and forced to work with us.

而以前，他们还可以在不同供应商之间挑拨离间。

Whereas before, they could kind of play one off or the other.

但随着监管和可持续性合规框架的逐步实施，成为咖啡贸易商的门槛正在大幅提高。

But the barriers to entry of becoming a coffee trader are going up substantially as we have this regulatory and sustainability compliance framework that's rolling out.

所以能胜任的人越来越少。

So it's fewer and fewer that can handle it.

所以，如果你作为贸易公司，75%到80%的营业额都来自少数几个合作伙伴，这和你有成百上千个客户时的交易方式完全不同，对吧？

So if you have, you know, if 75 or 80% of your turnover is as a trading company is coming out of a few partnerships, it's a whole different way of trading than when you have hundreds of clients, right?

没错。

Correct.

我想就是这样了。

And I think that's it.

当你进行交易式运营时，你会有成功的交易，也会有失败的交易。

You know, when you're trading transactionally, you're gonna make good transactions, you're gonna make bad transactions.

我们看到一些公司因为几笔大交易做错而倒闭。

And we see companies that go out of business because they got a couple of the big trades wrong.

但如果你处于一种具有持续收入的合作伙伴关系中，并且能够真正相互协作，这几乎有助于降低公司的风险。

But if you're in a partnership that has recurrent income and you can really work with each other, it almost helps to de risk the company itself.

所以，尽管我们是一家咖啡贸易公司，但我们把公司划分为大约七个不同的业务板块。

So, you know, even though we're a coffee trader, we divide up our company into about seven different segments.

而其中一个关键的绩效指标始终是持续收入。

And, you know, one of the key KPIs is always recurrent income.

我们如何通过合作伙伴关系将客户从一次性交易转变为持续收入？

You know, how do we move clients out of transactional and into recurrent income through that partnership angle?

我们宁愿选择较低但稳定的净资产收益率，因为这种收入是可预期且有保障的，也不愿承受收益的高峰与低谷以及随之而来的波动性。

And we would rather have a lower return on equity that was recurrent, that we knew was there and was going to be guaranteed, than have the highs and have the lows and have that volatility of earnings.

并不是每个贸易商都喜欢这种方式。

And not every trader loves that.

仍有一些贸易商希望追求高风险高回报的赌注。

There's traders that still want the big differential punt.

他们只想每年买一次东西，然后去海滩、出海航行、放松一下。

They want to buy something one time a year and go to the beach and go sailing and hang out.

他们只想做一年中最大的那一笔交易，然后就完事了。

They just want to have the big trade of the year and then be done.

但我认为，商业正越来越转向这种业务发展和伙伴关系型的交易员，老实说，这并不是我的强项。

But I think that the business is going more and more into these business development partnership building style traders, which frankly is not necessarily my skill set.

我是从那种注重巨大价差的基本面交易员的思维模式成长起来的。

I mean, come from the fundamental big differential trader, you know, kind of school of thought.

所以，对我来说，这并不是最直观的事情，但正因如此，我雇佣了人，也在团队内部提拔了那些具备伙伴关系基因和业务开发能力的人，来真正帮助我们推动业务发展。

So, you know, for me, it's not the most intuitive thing, but that's why I've hired people and I've promoted people within my group who do have that partnership DNA and that business development DNA to really help us drive the business forward.

那么，您现在如何看待一位Sucafina交易员的日常生活呢？

Because how would you see a date in the life of a Sucafina trader at the moment?

我的意思是，你们的一周是怎么开始的？现在对你们来说是什么样子？

I mean, you guys start you know, or the week, how does that look like for you guys now?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，交易团队具体怎么样，取决于你属于交易团队的哪个部分。

So I mean, the trading team, it it really depends on what part of the trading team you're on.

衍生品交易方面，整个公司只有几个人。

So derivatives trading, there's just a couple people in the entire company.

你知道的，他们就坐在日内瓦这里。

You know, they're they sit here in Geneva.

我们所有的对冲操作都是在日内瓦进行的。

We manage all the hedge from Geneva.

所有的风险承担也都发生在日内瓦。

All the risk taking happens from Geneva.

一切都由这里统一管控。

It's all controlled.

然后我们有原产地办公室，还有销售目的地办公室。

Then we have our origin offices and then we have our sales destination offices.

而嘉福宁的运营方式，与许多同行略有不同，我们采用的是统一的损益表系统。

And the way Sucafina operates, which is a little bit unique or different than many of our peers, is we have a one P and L system.

所以归根结底，这并不是社会主义。

So it means that at the end of the day, it's not socialist.

我们并不是把利润和亏损平均分给交易员，而是将各个办事处和不同盈利中心的业绩捆绑在一起，以达成年终结果和关键绩效指标。

It's not that we're taking the P and L and dividing it equally among traders and giving it, but we are tying the legs of the different offices and the different profitability centers to each other for end year results and KPI building.

因此，我们拥有非常畅通的沟通渠道。

So as a result of that, we really have open communication channels.

我的采购人员不会去向烘焙商推销，而我的销售同事却在向同一个烘焙商推销。

You know, my origin guy is not trying to sell to the roaster while my destination guy is trying to sell to the same roaster.

我们是一个全球团队在协同工作。

You know, we're working as a global team.

交易员的一天通常是每两周设定一次我们要做的事情。

So a day in the life of a trader, usually we're setting what we wanna do on at least biweekly basis.

我们会与整个团队进行交易决策讨论。

So trade calls with the entire team.

然后我们每天还会召开小组会议，跟进进展。

And then we have sub team calls that are happening on a daily basis just following the progress.

当然，我们还有微软Teams聊天，全天都在进行，人们不断发布和分享有关报价、客户需求、产地情况以及我们每日采购报告的信息，因为最终，商品交易归根结底是沟通。

And then we have the Microsoft Teams chats, of course, which are going on all day long where people are dumping and sharing information about offers and client demands and things that we're seeing in origin and things that we're buying daily reports because ultimately commodity trading comes down to communication.

我认为，往往获胜的团队都是沟通最出色的团队。

I And think the groups that win oftentimes are the groups that communicate the best.

所以对我们来说，很多工作都在于沟通，而这也让交易变得相当轻松。

So for us, a lot of it is the communication and then that actually makes the trading quite easy.

但如果你是销售交易员，你一天中的大部分时间都在查看你的清单，想着：这一周我需要联系谁？

But if you're a sales trader, obviously the majority of your day is looking at your list saying, alright, who do I need to be calling this week?

我有哪些待办事项？

What pendings do I have?

哪些样品需要获得批准？

What samples need to get approved?

我是否需要跟进发货情况，以确保如果桑托斯发生罢工，咖啡能顺利出货，或者如果会被延误，我需要打电话给客户，提前告知他们由于罢工，货物将延迟到达。

Do I need to follow-up on shipments to make sure if there's a strike in Santos that the coffee is getting out or if it's gonna be delayed, I need to be calling the client to give them a heads up that that because of the strike, going it's to come late.

而在产地端，更多是考虑：我需要采购什么？

Whereas on the origin side, it's more what do I need to be buying?

我需要处理哪些关于供应商风险的风险限额？

What risk limits do I need to be addressing on supplier risks that we might have?

这真的因团队而异。

It really just varies between the team.

但我认为其中的共同点是我们作为全球团队的相互关联性，以及我们建立的文化：如果有人遇到问题，不需要像赫拉克勒斯一样独自承担。

But I think the one commonality through that is that interconnectedness that we have as a global team and the culture that we built that if somebody's up against a problem, they don't need to be Hercules and put it on themselves.

他们可以举手说：‘大家，我们是在交易会议上共同决定建立空头头寸的，所以我们都有责任。’

They can raise their hand and say, Guys, we build a short position and we all choose these things at trading meetings, so we all own it.

并不是说拥有空头头寸的人独自完成了这一切。

It's not that the person who has the short position, you know, has done it by themselves.

我们都同意这是正确的做法。

We've all agreed that was the right thing.

我买入了这个空头头寸。

I bought the short position.

咖啡的流动并不是直接来自农民。

The flow of coffee is not coming from farmers.

我真的很担心这个问题。

I'm really actually pretty concerned about it.

你们觉得我们应该怎么做？

What do you guys think we should be doing?

你知道的。

You know?

然后这会告诉销售团队：嘿，也许放慢销售节奏，提高价差，或者在衍生品市场上做点什么，帮助交易员获得一点优势，同时让基差市场能够买入。

And then that tells the sales team, hey, maybe slow down on selling, maybe raise the the differential, Maybe there's something with the derivatives markets we can do to facilitate that trader to be able to have a slight edge and the basis market to be able to buy.

我们会为此承担一点风险以改善价格，但我们作为全球团队在紧密协调。

And we take a little bit of risk around it to improve the price, but we're really coordinating as a global team.

这是个很好的例子。

It's a great example.

我还觉得有趣的是，你所描述的这种情形，听起来像是协作。

And what I also find interesting is that what you describe, it sounds like collaboration.

如今，我也从达沃斯世界经济论坛的一些商业领袖那里看到了类似的情况。

And nowadays, and I also saw it from some of the business leaders from Davos, the World Economic Forum.

他们都喜欢谈论协作在公司里有多么重要。

They all like to talk about how important collaboration is in their companies.

但我认为更重要的是，正如你所描述的，那种同事情谊。

But what I find even more important, and that is exactly what you described, is camaraderie.

这不仅仅是共同工作。

So it's not only working together.

同事情谊更进一步。

Camaraderie is a step further.

你们一起工作，但真正发自内心地希望彼此团结、共同成功。

You work together, but you really want genuinely want to stick together and wish each other to be successful.

而这种情谊在交易台上非常常见。

And that is what you very often have on trading desks.

因为你们一起经历这些情绪的过山车。

Because together you go through these emotional rollercoasters.

你知道，现在陷入困境的是你的同事。

And you know now it's your colleague who is in the ditch.

但下一次就轮到你了，而他不会忘记你是怎么对待他的。

But next time it's you and he won't forget how you treated him.

因此，这种情谊是我一直认为在交易中极为重要的东西。

So that camaraderie is what I always found extremely important in trading.

它超越了其他商业人士热衷谈论的那种基本协作。

And it goes beyond the basic collaboration that you hear other business people talk about so eagerly.

我真的很喜欢到目前为止的故事。

I really enjoy the story so far.

这非常令人兴奋。

It's very exciting.

而且你看到，就像我们一样，你是个真正的爱好者。

And you see that just like us, you're a true enthusiast.

现在，你已经有了自己的头衔。

Now, you have your title already.

在商品行业里，你钦佩谁？

We're not going give Who a new in the commodity industry do you admire?

我的意思是，我觉得时间根本不够列出我认为所有出色的商品交易员。

I mean, I think that there's not enough time to probably list the amount of people who I think are brilliant commodity traders.

当然，因为我主要在咖啡领域工作，所以我的接触面更多集中在咖啡方面。

Of course, because I work within a very small realm within coffee, my exposure is more on the coffee side.

你知道，当我还在Noble和Dreyfus工作时，我确实接触过能源、金属和谷物领域的其他人。

You know, when I was working at Noble, when I was working at Dreyfus, had exposure okay to people across the energy sector, people across the metal sector and across the grain sector.

但若回望我的职业生涯，最早影响我的一位人士是布鲁斯·里特尔，尽管他可能根本不知道我，因为我跟他并不熟。

But, you know, if I think back on my career, one of the first influences, and he probably doesn't even know because I didn't know him that well, was a gentleman named Bruce Ritter.

他是路易·德鲁菲北美分部的负责人。

And he was the head of Louis Dreyfus North America.

实际上，是我主动给他打的电话。

He's actually the one that I cold called.

有人给了我他的名字，但没告诉我他的职位，我就在一个下午直接打了过去。

Somebody gave me his name, didn't tell me his title, and I cold called him in an afternoon.

他花了三十分钟跟我讲解商品交易。

The guy took thirty minutes to talk to me and explain commodity trading.

最后，我厚着脸皮问了一句：我可以发份简历吗？

And I, at the end, made the cheeky ask, could I send a CV?

他说：当然可以。

And he said, sure.

第二天，人力资源就给我打了电话，让我去面试。

And human resources called me the next day, said, come in for an interview.

我当时想，哇，这也太简单了吧。

I was like, wow, that was pretty easy.

直到现在，所有人都告诉我没戏。

Up until now, everybody's been telling me no chance.

但我还是去了，面试时他们问：你怎么认识布鲁斯的？

But so I went, I interviewed and they're like, oh, how do you know Bruce?

我说：我直接给他打过电话。

I said, oh, I cold called them.

他们又问：你知道他是谁吗？

And they said, do you know who he is?

我说，没有。

And I said, no.

他们说，他是路易达孚北美区负责人兼全球谷物业务负责人。

And they said, he's the head of North America and the head of global grains for Louis Dreyfus.

那个人非常友善，很有耐心。

And the guy was just so kind, so patient.

后来我才知道，他是一位杰出的交易员，但更是一个了不起的人。

And as I found out later, he was a phenomenal trader, but he was a great human being.

对我来说，他是个榜样，尽管我没有和他共事过，但我经常见到他，他就是这样一种总是乐于助人的人。

And I think for me as a role model, even though I didn't work with him, I would see him, but he was one of these people who was always helpful.

我想到了伊沃，你之前播客里采访过的那位，情况非常相似。

And I think of Ivo who you've had on a prior podcast in a very similar vein.

他们不仅是出色的专业人士，还超越了专业层面。

Somebody who they're great professionals, but they go beyond being great professionals.

他们是优秀的同事，也是优秀的导师。

They're great colleagues, they're great mentors.

我认为，这些正是我在行业中真正钦佩的人。

And I think those are the type of people who for me, I truly admire in the industry.

然后，我若不提我的一位导师埃内斯托·莱昂·甘贝塔，那就失礼了。

And then I'd be remiss to not mention one of my mentors who is Ernesto Leon Gambetta.

所以我离开了路易达孚，去诺布尔工作，就是因为他的影响。

So I left Dreyfus to go to Noble because of him.

他教给我的东西，以及我如此钦佩他的原因，是他从不隐瞒信息。

What he taught me and why I admire him so much is he never tried to hide information.

他从不会说，‘哦，我担心戴夫可能会来。’

He never tried to say, Oh, I'm afraid Dave might be coming up.

他可能会取代我。

He might replace me.

他总是对所掌握的知识毫无保留地开放。

He always was just so open with the knowledge of what he had.

所以，我想这些只是我脑海中第一时间想到的几个名字。

So, I think that those are just a couple names come to mind off the top of my head.

我敢肯定，如果我再多想想，还能列出更多人，因为我的职业生涯中遇到过不少杰出的交易员。

I'm sure if I thought about it longer, I would come up with many, many more because I've run across quite a few phenomenal traders over my career.

但我最敬佩的是那些赚钱能力强、是优秀的同事、愿意分享知识并培养下一代的人。

But the ones I admire most are the ones who make money, who are great colleagues, share knowledge and mentor the next generation.

所以我一直说，那就是我想要成为的人。

And so I've always said that's what I aspire to be.

哇。

Wow.

等我长大后，我想成为像他们那样的人。

When I grow up, I wanna be like these guys.

我努力去做到所有这些事。

I try to do all those things.

我相信，像每个管理者一样，我们也有不足之处，总会时间不够，没法做到自己想做的那么多。

I'm sure, like every manager, we have our shortcomings and we run out of time and and don't get to do as much of it as we'd like.

但每年一月一日我设定个人目标时，我知道我需要赚钱。

But, definitely when I start my year on January 1 and I, you know, have my personal goals, it's you know, I need to make money.

说实话，这正是我们在这里要做的事。

Let's be honest, that that's what we're here to do.

但接下来，我该如何成为一个更好的同事？

But then it's how do I be a better colleague?

我该如何成为一个更好的导师？

How do I be a better mentor?

我该如何更好地支持我的团队？

And how do I support my team better?

在做年度评估时，我总是会问360度反馈的问题。

And when I do my year end reviews, I always ask the three sixty question.

我还能做些什么来更好地支持你？

What can I be doing better to support you?

刚开始的时候，人们总是说：哦，没什么。

And, you know, at the beginning, people are like, oh, nothing.

你是个完美的老板。

You're the perfect boss.

现在是奖金季，你知道的？

It's bonus season, you know?

但随着时间推移，当你开始了解人们，他们也逐渐放心你真的是在寻求反馈时，他们会说，其实有一件事，如果你能这么做，对我帮助会很大。

But then over the years, as you start to get to know people and they start to get comfortable that you're truly soliciting information, they're like, you know, there is this one thing, and if you just did this, it would really help me.

当我能进行这些坦诚的对话时，我发现这些评论对我的个人成长最有帮助。

And I find those comments to be the most helpful for my own personal development when you can have those honest conversations.

那你在这个行业已经多少年了？

Because you're now how many years already in the industry?

所以我想，我现在大概已经有二十三、二十四年了。

So I guess it's twenty three, twenty four years now.

那在这个播客里，你能讲的最疯狂的故事是什么？

And and what is then the craziest story that you could could tell on this on this podcast?

最疯狂的故事？

The craziest story.

我的意思是，也许这并不是我经历过的最疯狂的事，但那时我刚进入这个行业。

Well, I mean, maybe it's not the craziest thing that's ever happened to me, but I was new in the industry.

我刚加入德雷福斯公司。

I had just started in Dreyfus.

我当时在那里才三四个月。

I had been there maybe three, four months.

我的老板问我：你想去萨尔瓦多吗？

And my boss said, do you want to go to El Salvador?

我说：当然好啊。

I'm like, sure.

走吧。

Let's go.

你知道，这太棒了。

You know, this is great.

因为我入职时被聘为交易员，但他们立刻把我安排在物流部门待了两年。

Because when I got hired, I was hired as a trader and they immediately stuck me in the logistics department for two years.

我当时就想：等等，这不对吧。

And I'm like, well, wait a second.

我以为我会成为一名交易员，但他们解释说，在你真正了解交易各组成部分之前，我们不能让你开始交易。

I I thought I was gonna be a trader and they explained, until you know how what actually goes into the components of trading, we can actually let you trade.

这简直是太好了。

And it was the best thing ever.

我非常感激他们这样做了。

I'm so grateful that they did that.

但我的老板说，我们为什么不去萨尔瓦多呢？

But my boss said, why don't we go to El Salvador?

我心想，天啊。

And I'm like, whew.

任何事都好过处理提单、交货单、给客户开票以及所有这些杂事。

Anything not to deal with bills of ladings and delivery orders and, invoicing clients and everything else.

于是我们飞到萨尔瓦多，住进酒店后，他说：我们去拜访一位萨尔瓦多的富人，他是个大出口商。

So we fly into El Salvador and we go to the hotel and he goes, We're going to go visit one of the wealthier people in El Salvador and he's a large exporter.

当然，车到了之后，是一辆防弹车。

And so of course, the car shows up and it's the bulletproof car.

对吧？

Right?

然后你就想，好吧，这挺酷的。

And you're like, Okay, that's cool.

你上车，一路过去，到了前门，那里有个安检。

You hop in, you go, you get to the front gate, there's, you know, the security check that happens there.

你走进大楼，大楼入口处还有一个安检。

You come into the building, there's a security check at the front of the building.

你上楼后，发现有一扇银行金库门，还得在那里过一道安检。

You go up the stairs and there's like a bank vault door and you have to do a security check there.

你终于进去了，见到了那个人，挺普通的一个人，聊的也是些平常话题。

You finally get in and you meet the guy, pretty normal guy, you know, normal conversation.

我们聊了聊咖啡出口。

We talk about coffee exports.

我啥也不懂，就光听。

I know nothing so I'm just listening.

但我老板正在和他们进行这场对话。

But my boss is having this conversation with them.

他们在讨论明年预期的基础、对纽约市场的看法等等。

They're talking about, you know, what expectations are for the basis for the coming year, views on the New York market, etcetera, etcetera.

然后最后，他说：我送你们回酒店吧。

And then at the end, goes, let me drive you guys back to your hotel.

我们说：好的。

And we're like, okay.

于是我们坐电梯下去，比上来时经过了更多的楼层，最后到达一条隧道。

So we go down an elevator, more floors than we came up, and we get to this tunnel.

我们大概在隧道里走了两三百米。

And we probably walk like 200, 300 meters through this tunnel.

然后那里还有另一部电梯，往上开，直接进入停车场。

And then there's another elevator there that goes up and pulls into a parking garage.

然后，你懂的，那辆装甲车又出现了。

And there's, you know, the armored car again.

但这次我们上车时，两边都有持枪的人。

But this time as we get in, there's guys with guns on each side of us.

当你开车离开时，已经离那栋官方大楼有三四个街区远了。

And you come pulling out and you're like three, four blocks away from where that official building was.

那个开车送我们去酒店的人就是他。

And that's the guy who drives us to the hotel.

到这个时候，我有点紧张了。

You know, at this point, I'm a little nervous.

你知道，我还年轻。

Know, I'm young.

我游历过世界各地。

I've traveled the world.

我很有经验。

I'm experienced.

我并没有完全吓坏了。

I wasn't completely freaking out.

但这是我第一次接触咖啡，第一次参加原产地之旅，一上来就遭遇这样的场面，真的让我深受震撼。

But for my first experience in coffee, very first experience on an origin trip to have that be like right out of the gate, it really hit me.

我到了酒店房间后，给现在的妻子打了电话，那时候她还是我的女友。

I got to the hotel room and I called my now wife, but then girlfriend at the time.

我当时说，我不知道自己卷入了什么麻烦。

And I'm like, I don't know what I got into.

我当时想，如果这还算简单的部分，因为我老板随口说了句。

I was like, if this is the easy stuff because my boss made a flipping comment.

他说，哦，这算是简单的部分了。

He's like, oh, this is the easy stuff.

我想，如果这都算简单的，那我到底在这儿干什么？

I'm like, if this is the easy stuff, what am I really doing here?

所以，这算是我进入咖啡世界的开端。

So that that was kinda my introductory into the the world of coffee.

那时候你没想过后勤方面的问题吗？

You you didn't think about them back to logistics at that stage?

你知道吗，我当时确实有在想这件事，而我当时的女友说，你应该买一份人寿保险，然后把它转让给我。

You know, there was a part of me that was thinking about it, and and my then girlfriend was like, you should get a life insurance policy and sign it over to me.

那是她作为一位优秀的阿根廷人的做法。

That was her a good Argentine.

我第一次去科特迪瓦做可可业务时，不得不乘坐快艇紧急撤离那个国家。

My very first trip to Ivory Coast for Coco, I had to, be evacuated out of the country with the speedboat.

那简直太疯狂了。

It was insane.

那场景有点像一部詹姆斯·邦德电影。

It looked a bit like a James Bond movie.

但确实，当你习惯了西方社会，你会觉得一切都有条不紊，有政府、有法治，警察也会配合你。

But yeah, you realize that when you're used to the West, things function and that there is a government and there is rule of law and all these things and that the police works with you.

而你并不习惯事情需要通过贿赂来解决，诸如此类的情况。

And you're not used to things being bribed and all these things.

所以对我而言，我也必须在大宗商品行业迅速成长起来。

So, yeah, for me also, I needed to mature very quickly in the commodities industry.

年轻人经常问我们的问题是，他们想读一些关于大宗商品的资料。

A question that we often get from young people is they want to read about commodities.

事实上，当我还在嘉吉公司招聘时，他们第一个问题就是：你能给我一些资料吗？能推荐一些书吗？

And in fact, when I've hired people in Cargill, one of the first things they ask is, can you give me documents and can you give me book recommendations and all these things?

但实际上，这方面的资料并不多。

And in fact, there isn't much.

而且，在大宗商品领域，我们到目前为止所讨论的大部分知识，都只存在于人们的头脑中。

And most of the knowledge also in cargo about commodities and the things that we have been discussing so far is in the heads of people.

是的。

Yeah.

这挺奇怪的，对吧？

It's quite strange, right?

不过，伊沃写过这样一本书。

But Ivo wrote this book, of course.

但你还有读过其他书吗？

But are there any other books that you have read?

它可能不是关于商品的，但有一本书是我推荐给我们的观众的，这本书对我很重要，我觉得你们真的应该读一读。

It may not be about commodities, but a book that you recommend for our audience, which was important to you, which you feel like, yeah, that's something you should read.

是的，我完全同意你的观点。

Yeah, I think that you're absolutely correct.

关于商品交易、它究竟包含哪些内容、这个职业是什么样的，信息极度匮乏。

There's a huge shortage of information about commodity trading, what it actually entails, what the career is like.

我经常被问到同样的问题。

And I'm often asked the same question.

人们总是问：我怎样才能成为一名更好的交易员？

People are always saying, Oh, how can I become a better trader?

即使是那些已经进入商品领域的人，也想知道如何学得更多。

Even the ones that have started in commodities, how can I learn more?

但我真的很难推荐太多资料。

And I'm just hard pressed to really be able to recommend too much.

我觉得伊沃的书非常出色。

I think Ivo's book is amazing.

我强烈推荐每个人都读一读。

I definitely recommend it for everybody to read.

不过我要坦率地说，我的数学能力不足以完全理解书中的所有公式。

Although I'll be a 100% honest, my math skills are not really up to par to really follow all the formula stuff.

我选择金融而不是经济学，是有原因的。

I I mean, chose finance over economics for a reason.

你知道，我只是想晚上能出去玩。

You know, I wanted to actually be able to go out at night.

所以，不幸的是，我没有那种经济学功底，但Ivo这本书的结论和背后的思考，我认为非常有力且完全准确。

So, you know, unfortunately, I don't have that economic skill, but Ivo's book, the conclusions of it, the thought behind it, I think are very powerful and a 100% accurate.

乔纳森·金斯曼写过一系列书，不止一本。

Jonathan Kingsman has been doing books, so it's not one book, but it's a series of books.

如果你搜索乔纳森·金斯曼，会发现很多不同的书，他都是通过与人对话的形式来写的。

If you look up Jonathan Kingsman, I think you'll find a lot of different books, and he does these conversations with people.

我很荣幸能成为其中一本书的受访者。

And I had the honor to be part of one of the books.

当你阅读时，你实际上能窥见商品交易员的生活。

When you read, you actually get a glimpse into the life of the commodity trader.

这不会是深入到博士级别的分析，但你能感受到不同行业关注的重点，以及人们如何看待他们可能采用的交易方式。

It's not going to be the deep dive and PhD level, but you do get a sense of what the different industries are focused on, what people think about kind of the trading styles that that they might have.

你知道，如果你想吸引年轻人进入商品交易领域，那本叫《世界待售》的书，其实并没有太多能引起我对商品交易日常生活的共鸣。

You know, if if you wanna entice young people into commodity trading, probably that that book that came out The World For Sale, you know, it it doesn't really resonate as much to my life in commodity trading.

我的意思是，是的，我举了萨尔瓦多的例子，那个可能更适合那本书的内容。

I mean, yes, I gave the El Salvador example which might fit better into that book.

那件事比我个人的日常生活要戏剧化得多，但也许正是这种戏剧性让读者觉得更有吸引力。

It it was a little bit more dramatic than than what I feel my day to day life is, but, you know, maybe that's something that that people can find a bit compelling.

在咖啡交易方面，我总是告诉人们，这并不是单纯的咖啡交易，而是一本叫《非同寻常的土壤》的书。

And then in coffee trading, I always tell people it's not coffee trading, but a book called Uncommon Grounds.

它讲述了咖啡的整个历史，涵盖了所有的破产、合并与收购，以及咖啡产业是如何发展起来的。

And it goes through the entire history of coffee and it covers all the bankruptcies, it covers all the mergers, acquisitions, it covers kind of how the coffee industry has come about.

所以它并不是严格意义上的商品交易，但如果有人对咖啡感兴趣，读了这本书，就会对我们的行业有大量深刻见解。

So it's not commodity trading per se, but if somebody's interested in coffee, if you read that book, you'll have a lot of insights about our industry.

但我完全同意你的观点，确实存在人才短缺。

But I fully agree with you, there is a shortage.

曾经我说过，我要写一本书，因为现在人才短缺。

At one point I said, Oh, I'll write a book because there's a shortage.

但后来我意识到，写书其实是一项繁重的工作。

And then I realized it's actually a lot of work.

写书并不容易。

It's not easy to write a book.

而且我本来就时间紧张。

And I just have a shortage of time to begin with.

所以我已经开始了写一本书的计划，也许那会成为我退休后的一个项目。

So I have a book that got started and maybe that'll be a retirement project at some point.

我觉得交易员还有一个特点，就是你希望快速看到结果，对吧？

I think as well with traders is that, you know, you like to have quick results, right?

你不像麦肯锡的顾问那样，开始在一个地方工作，然后做一个项目，六个月后交付一个出色的成果或建议。

So you're not like a consultant at McKinsey that, you know, starts working somewhere and, you know, does a project and delivers in six months an amazing result or some advice.

在这里，你的工作成果可能在一分钟内或一天内就接连出现。

Here it's like, boom, within one minute or within one day, have multiple results of your work also.

所以写书也需要时间、精力，投入巨大，而成果却遥不可及。

So writing a book is also something that takes time, takes effort, takes a huge amount And of the result is only, it's far away, basically.

所以我能理解这有多难。

So I can imagine that it's a tough one.

是的，毫无疑问。

Yeah, for sure.

但我认为，对于苏卡菲纳来说，如果人们想更好地了解我们所做的工作，可以看看我们的年度可持续发展报告。

But I do think that for Sucafina, if people wanted to understand a bit better some of the work that we do in Sucafina, it's our annual sustainability report.

我知道你可能会觉得，这不算商品交易。

And I know you don't think of like, well, that's not commodity trading.

这属于可持续发展。

That's sustainability.

但可持续发展和交易已经密不可分，我们每项举措都会公开披露。

But sustainability and trading have become so intertwined And each we disclose every project, everything that we're doing.

我认为如果人们阅读这份报告，就能对我们的实际业务以及发展方向有所了解。

And I think if people read that, they would get a sense of kind of the physical business and the direction we're going.

是的，这很好。

Yeah, that's good.

我还有一个问题，这关乎年轻人一直感兴趣的话题——他们的职业发展。

I have one more question, and this is about what young people are always interested in, is their career development.

我们谈到了Z世代，他们耐心更少。

And we talked about Gen Z and they are less patient.

我认为这与他们拥有我们当年没有的大量信息获取渠道有关。

And I think it has to do with the fact that they have a lot of access to information that we, when we started didn't have.

我完全不知道每天每个人都在做什么。

I had no idea what everyone was doing every single day.

而如今，他们浏览领英，看到别人的晋升，再看其他渠道上的成功案例，就会变得不耐烦。

And nowadays they look at LinkedIn and they all see promotions and they look at other channels where they see successes and they get impatient.

你在一段YouTube视频中所说的话，让我印象非常深刻，简单而有效。

And what you said in a YouTube video was in my mind very simple and effective.

你说过，你必须现身。

And you said, you have to show up.

而‘现身’是一种隐喻。

And show up as a metaphor.

这不仅仅是来办公室，而是要真正投入工作，完成那些繁琐的任务，进行分析，把事情办成，真正证明你对公司的价值。

It's not like only coming to the office, but showing up doing your dirty homework, have gone through the S and Ds, come up with an analysis, get things done, and show indeed that you are valuable to the company.

这就是‘现身’的真正含义。

And that what showing up is.

而且要持续这样做。

And do it consistently.

你觉得一年后就能获得商品交易员的认证，就能在职业上取得进展，这公平吗？

And the idea that after one year you get the stamp of approval of a commodity trader and that you can already progress in your career, I think is not fair, right?

你还需要经历某些市场周期。

You have to go through certain market cycles as well.

不。

No.

所以在这方面我完全同意你的观点。

So there I totally agree with you.

我认为我们可能需要更加意识到的是，我们也需要更加透明一些。

Where I think we maybe should be more conscious of is that we are also need to be a bit more transparent.

好的。

Okay.

我们为他们所设想的东西。

What we have in mind for them.

我们实际上会帮助他们职业发展。

We are actually going to help them progress in their career.

因为当我刚进入货运行业时，前三年我根本一无所知。

Because when I started in cargo, I just you know, the first three years I had no idea.

我只是自己慢慢摸索出来。

I just figured it all out.

我从未想过我的职业生涯会是什么样子，我的经理们也从不谈论这个。

I don't think I've ever thought about what my career would look like and my managers would never talk about it.

但我认为这一点必须改变。

But I think that is something that has to change.

所以你在那段视频中提到，人才甚至可能不知道自己在人才名单上。

So what you said in that clip was talents may not even know they are on the talent list.

因此他们可能会离开。

And therefore they could leave.

他们也应该更有耐心。

And they should be more patient.

但同时，你认为我们作为领导者是否也应该有责任明确告诉他们：我会对你的人生职业负责。

But also, do you think that we as leaders should then have a responsibility to actually tell them, look, I'm going to take ownership of your career.

这就是我为你制定的计划。

This is my plan with you.

我会在未来几年帮助你和我一起成长。

And I'm going to help you progress with me in the next couple of years.

你该怎么做呢？

How do you do that?

是的，对我们来说，我认为这是一种多方面的策略。

Yeah, so for us, I think that's a multifaceted approach that we try to take.

我认为，如果我们看到有人积极投入、努力工作并取得成果，我们会确保他们意识到这一点。

I do think that if we see somebody who is showing up, who is working hard, who is driving results, we try to make sure that they're aware of that.

你知道，我们不想把这件事保密。

You know, we don't want to keep that a secret.

第二，我们有培训项目。

Two, we have training programs.

我们有多个不同的项目。

We have multiple different programs.

我们有一个叫做人才俱乐部的项目，人们可以被选入，他们将作为小组一起完成我们的培训模块。

We have one which is called Talent Club, which people can get accepted into, which is in our training modules that they go through as a group.

然后我们还有另一个群体，叫做火花计划。

And then we have another group which is Sparks.

在这个项目中，我们在波士顿有一位顾问，与哈佛大学合作，为他们提供为期两年的项目。

And there we have a consultant in Boston that works with Harvard University and does a two year program for them.

他们完成课程后会获得哈佛大学颁发的证书。

They get a certificate from Harvard at the end of it they've completed.

他们会经历一些管理方面的预备培训。

And so they go through kind of managerial preparatory things.

这些人都要接受面试。

Those are interviewed.

所以，主管必须提名员工或人才成员。

So the boss, the person has to nominate the staff member, the talent member.

然后他们必须通过一个面试流程。

Then they actually have to go through an interview process.

而对于Sparks项目，如果候选人进入最终轮次，高管团队会亲自面试所有Sparks候选人，然后选出最终人选。

And then if in the case of Sparks, if they make it to the final round, then actually the executive management team interviews all of the Spark candidates and then selects the people.

所以我认为，这种方式能让人们感受到自己真正参与其中。

So I think that's a nice way for people to feel like they're part of it.

我们有一些人连续三年申请Sparks项目，前两次都没被录取，但第三次终于成功了。

We've had people who've applied for Sparks maybe three years in a row, didn't get accepted, didn't get accepted and then got accepted.

但当他们未被录取时，总会收到关于未被录取原因的反馈。

But when they're not accepted, they're always provided feedback on why they were not accepted.

所以，我认为对我们来说，我们试图把这些培训项目作为保持人才参与的方式。

So, I think for us, we try to use those training programs as a way to keep the talent involved.

而如今，正如你所说，你确实需要有一个更明确的职业规划。

And then nowadays to your point, you do need to have more of a career plan.

你必须明确地说，嘿，我们设想的方式是，我总是使用那个基本的构建模块，也就是知识金字塔。

You you do need to say, hey, you know, the way we're envisioning this is that I always use that that fundamental, building block, the pyramid of knowledge, if you will.

你需要具备这些要素，才能成为最优秀的交易员。

And, you know, you need to have these pieces to become the optimal trader.

所以我可能会对一位在日内瓦工作的人说，你在日内瓦工作真不错。

So I might tell somebody who's been working in Geneva, you know, it's great that you work in Geneva.

你懂得如何销售咖啡很棒，但你根本不知道如何采购咖啡、什么是加工厂、什么是产量，以及什么是农民参与。

It's great that you know how to sell coffee, but you have no clue how to buy coffee, how to source coffee, what a processing mill is, what yields are, what, you know, farmer engagement is.

我真的认为你应该在原产地待上几年，然后我们再看看，他们是否更适合拉丁美洲？

I really think you should spend a couple years in origin, you know, and and then we look at, you know, are they more suited for Latin America?

他们适合非洲吗？

Are they suited for Africa?

他们适合亚洲吗？

Are they suited for Asia?

在二十多岁的时候，很多人还没结婚。

And a lot of times in the twenties, people aren't married.

他们还没有孩子。

They don't have kids yet.

他们会说：听着，我愿意去冒险。

They say, listen, I'm up for an adventure.

我不想被困住，但我乐意去旅行。

I don't wanna go and get stuck, but I'm comfortable going and traveling.

因此，我们试图将这些发展工作融入他们的年度评估周期和一些关键绩效指标中。

And so we try to build some of that development work into their annual review cycle and into some of their KPIs.

但我相信，无论我们做什么，都还能做得更多。

But I'm sure whatever we do, we could be doing even more.

我认为这已经成为留住人才的关键部分。

And I think it has become a critical part of retention.

你知道，你经常看到，最好的交易员会被提拔为管理者，但最好的交易员未必是最棒的管理者。

You know, you see often that, you know, the best traders are being promoted to also managers, you may be the best trader isn't the best manager.

当然。

For sure.

对吧？

Right?

有可能，但这也是一种并非必须的选择。

It could be, but it's also an option that isn't.

我认为管理交易员是完全不同的另一回事。

And I think managing the traders is a whole different ballgame.

而且对于公司价值而言，不如让最好的交易员继续做交易，而不是只当管理者而放弃交易。

And also for the value of a company, rather have the best trader, stay the best trader or do end to end, but not becoming a manager only and leaving the trading behind.

而且我觉得对初级交易员来说，由那些对实际交易及其相关事务更有热情和动力的人来管理，才更公平，否则对交易员和整个团队都不公平。

And I think also towards the junior traders, it's also not fair to traders or the rest of the team is that you're being managed by actually somebody that actually has much more drive and energy getting out of actual trades and everything that comes with it.

是的，当然。

Yeah, for sure.

我认为没有一种模式适合所有人。

I think no one size fits all.

我确实看到，在我之前工作的几家跨国公司中，一些出色的交易员因为转做管理者而毁掉了自己的职业生涯。

I definitely saw across some of the multinationals that I worked for beforehand, amazing traders having their career sabotaged by becoming managers.

但他们觉得，为了赚更多钱、获得更高的职位层级，他们必须成为管理者。

But they felt they needed to become managers in order to earn more, to have more hierarchy.

所以我认为，不应强迫交易员进入管理岗位，这是关键。

So I think not forcing traders into management is key.

而且我认为，交易员本身也有不同的风格。

And I also think on traders, you have different styles of traders.

我们常常用农夫和猎人的比喻来说明。

And we always use the idea of the farmer and the hunter.

所以我们有一些是猎人型的。

And so we have some that are hunters.

他们只想出去开发新客户，开拓新领域。

They just wanna go out and find new accounts and go in trailblaze.

而另一些人则只想维护好已经发现的客户。

And you have others that just want to kind of take care of what's already been found.

我认为，要取得最佳成效，必须将个人的性格与他们在组织内所从事的交易风格相匹配。

And so you also have to align the personality of the person with the style of trading that they're doing within your organization, I think, to get optimal success.

提供关于这个行业的更多见解很好。

It's good to provide more insights about this industry.

这也是这个播客的驱动力之一：展示这个行业的真实面貌，因为网上很难找到很多相关书籍。

And this was also one of the drivers of this podcast to show what it really is, because you can't really find a lot of books online.

网上充斥着大量胡言乱语。

There's a lot of nonsense.

所以我们的想法是，让可信的人来揭示这个行业的真实情况。

So the idea was get access to credible people who show what the industry is.

从事这个行业的人究竟是谁？

Who are the people working in it?

他们为什么对它如此热情？

Why are they enthusiastic about it?

这真是个多么棒的生意啊？

And what a great business is this?

这应该会让那些从未考虑过这个行业的人都睁开眼睛，就像你一样。

And that should open the eyes to people who haven't thought about this industry just like yourself.

这使得这个播客更加完整，因为你从自己的故事开始，说你根本没想过这件事。

And that makes, I think, the podcast quite round that you started with your story that you didn't think about it at all.

你猜怎么着？

And guess what?

有一位先生。

There is Mr.

这么多年后，还是咖啡。

Coffee after all those years.

是的。

Yeah.

我们传递的这种对这个行业的热情，本身在智力上就极其有趣。

And the ideas that we bring across that enthusiasm about this industry, and it's intellectually extremely interesting.

我认为这也是你长期投身于这个行业和咖啡领域的原因之一。

And I think that's also one of the reasons why you have been in that industry and in coffee for such a long time.

是的，毫无疑问。

Yeah, for sure.

我为什么会在可可行业待这么久。

Why I've been in cocoa for such a long time.

所以，没错。

So, yeah.

另外，考虑到时间，我们必须结束与您的这次访谈和播客了。

Also looking at the time, we have to finish this session and this podcast with you.

我非常享受这次交流。

I very much enjoyed it.

我学到了一些关于咖啡的更多知识，不只是我平时喝的那些普通咖啡。

I learned a bit more about coffee than just the regular coffees that I drink.

希望我们能让马丁让品尝到你心中那种茶一样的咖啡。

And hopefully we get the Martijn as far as the tea will have that kind of coffee that you have in mind.

是的。

Yeah.

我也希望堪萨斯队能登上世界舞台。

Also, I hope the Kansas chief make it to the world

登上超级碗。

To the Super Bowl.

世界总决赛。

World final.

没错，就是超级碗。

Super Bowl indeed.

所以我希望这一切能为你实现。

So I hope that will happen for you.

感谢你抽出这么多时间。

Many things for your time.

真的，真的非常享受。

Really, really enjoyed it.

而且我真的很期待再听一遍这个播客。

And I am I really look forward to listening to this podcast again.

戴夫，

Dave,

我真的很享受。

I I really, really enjoyed it.

非常出色。

Very impressive.

而且，是的，我们可以聊上几个小时，但我觉得你很好地代表了这个行业的核心。

And, yeah, we could we could talk for hours, but I think you're a very good representative of what this industry is all about.

博学、非常吸引人、有诚信、有批判性，而且最重要的是，作为一个充满热情谈论自己工作的人。

Knowledgeable, very engaging, integrity, critical, and just, you know, being a human being who, with enthusiasm, talks about his job.

而这正是我们希望通过这个节目实现的目标。

And that is exactly what we want to want to achieve with this.

非常感谢你抽出时间和分享见解。

Thanks a lot for your time and insights.

不，这真的是我的荣幸。

No, truly my pleasure.

我认为，这是一个人所能选择的最棒的职业道路。

And it is, I think, the greatest career path somebody can choose.

你知道，这个行业起初并不为人所知，但一旦你深入了解，我就无法想象自己会从事其他任何工作。

You know, it's unknown, but once you get to know it, I couldn't imagine doing anything different in life.

我每天早上醒来都心怀感激，因为这就是我选择的职业，我能够从事这份工作。

I truly wake up every morning and feel grateful that this is the career I have and that I get to do this job.

很高兴能分享我微薄的知识。

Happy to share my small piece of knowledge.

我想感谢你们两位制作了这个播客系列，并帮助推广我们这个行业，成为一种声音，或许有人在收听时会想：也许我该尝试把这当作我的职业。

I'd like to thank both of you for this podcast series and for helping to promote, those of us in the industry and being able to be a voice that hopefully somebody's listening to this and says, maybe I should give that a try for my career.

所以，感谢你们两位作为我们这个行业所需的代言人。

So thanks to both of you for for being the ambassadors for the industry that we need.

完美。

Perfect.

谢谢你，道格。

Thank you, Doug.

再见。

Bye bye.

非常感谢你，戴夫。

Thanks a lot, Dave.

再见，各位。

Bye, guys.