精选：邮购婚姻如何运作

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Have you ever heard a story so unbelievable it just had to be true? Well, Roofman is the jaw dropping new film about Jeffrey Manchester played by Channing Tatum, a man who became infamous for breaking into over 40 McDonald's through the roof, then secretly living inside a Toys R Us for six months. With humor, suspense, and heart, Roofman is a cat and mouse story that will keep you hooked until the very end. Don't miss Roofman, only in theaters, October 10.

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你的钱包里有什么？条款适用。详情见capital1.com/bank。Capital One NA，FDIC成员。您或许不知道，《你应该知道的事》最初是为改变人们对邮购婚姻的看法而设，通过本期节目我们确实做到了。

What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital1.com/bank. Capital One NA, member FDIC. You may not know this, but the original purpose of Stuff You Should Know was to change people's minds about mail order marriages, and we certainly did with this episode.

我们大获成功，于是决定继续制作播客——开个玩笑，专为那些听不出反话的听众说明。真实情况是，这期内容意外地引人入胜，很可能改变你对邮购婚姻的认知。刚才这句是认真的，针对总以为我在说笑的听众。不如咱们一起享受本期节目，如何？

We were so successful that we decided to keep the podcast going. I'm just kidding for those of our listeners who have trouble detecting that kind of thing. What is true is that it's a surprisingly interesting episode, and it may very well change your mind about mail order marriages. I was serious just now for those of our listeners who always think I'm kidding. How about we all just enjoy this episode, shall we?

欢迎收听《你应该知道的事》，iHeartRadio出品。

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

大家好，欢迎收听节目。我是乔什，这位是查克，杰瑞也在。今天我们要聊的是关于邮购婚姻的那些你应该知道的事。

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too. And this is stuff you should know about mail order marriages. The

浑浊的水域。是的。真的。是的。这是我们反复研究、阅读又阅读的案例之一。

murky waters. Yeah. Really. Yeah. This is one of those where we researched and researched and read and read.

是的。我认为这对我来说就像是——这只是我的开场白——

Yeah. And I think it's it's one of those deals for me that's like and this is just my opening statement.

好的。

Okay.

它可能在某种程度上是件好事，比如类似婚恋服务。嗯。但整个情况无疑也有其阴暗面。

Where it it can be a a positive thing, like a dating service in some ways. Mhmm. But there is certainly a darker side to the whole situation.

我已经知道你对这件事的看法了，而且我觉得表达得很清楚。

I already know how you feel about it, and I feel like it's coming through clearly.

是的。我是说，这确实是那种非常模糊的事情之一，有时你会听到一些美好的故事，人们确实在寻找爱情并与来自另一个国家的人相爱，对每个人都圆满。但有时你也会听到全国妇女组织索尼娅·阿萨里奥称之为人口贩卖温和版的故事。

Yeah. I mean, it's just it's very it's one of those really murky things where sometimes you hear these really great stories about people that do find are looking for love and find love with someone from another country, and it works out for everybody. And then sometimes you hear about stories where it's sort of what the National Organization for Women's, Sonya Asario, calls a softer version of human trafficking.

嗯。或者更糟的是，偶尔会有人被发现遭谋杀。

Mhmm. Or even worse, occasionally, someone turns up murdered.

是的。腹肌我指的是，那是最真实的阴暗面。所以这只是我在设定基准，我们可以讨论好的、坏的、丑陋的方面。

Yeah. Abs I mean, that's the truest dark side. So that's just me level setting, and we can talk about the good, the bad, the ugly.

我认为这是个很好的基准设定。我大体上同意，但对我来说，整体来看这事还没有定论，因为关于这方面的硬数据实在太少了。

I think that is a great level set. I generally agree with it, but for me, the jury is still out in thinking about it as a whole because there's so little hard data on this stuff.

没错。几乎所有的都是道听途说。

Yeah. Almost everything is anecdotal.

确实。当你基于传闻数据谴责某事时，你所得到的是道德恐慌，而不一定是现实中的情况。所以我有点犹豫要不要全盘接受。对我来说还没有定论，但我绝对能认出你说的那些现象。它们确实存在。

True. And when like you condemn something based on anecdotal data, what you've got there is a moral panic, not necessarily something in in reality. So I'm a little hesitant to go all the way. The jury's still out for me, but I definitely recognize the same stuff you do for sure. It's definitely there.

它存在。只是对我来说问题是，它存在的程度有多大，以及好处是否大于坏处，我不知道。所以我们应该...是的，我们或许应该先明确我们讨论的定义，因为大多数人可能都听说过邮购新娘。最近它们更多地被称为邮购婚姻，因为在美国已经扩展到同性伴侣。

It exists. It's just for me the question is, how much does it exist and does the good outweigh the bad and I don't know. So we should Yeah. We should probably like actually define what we're talking about here because it most people I would guess are familiar with mail order brides. They're more more recently, they're they've come to be called mail order marriages because they've been extended to same sex couples in The United States.

但更广义地说，它也被称为国际婚姻中介，对吧？

But then also, like, even more generally, it's called international marriage brokerage. Right?

是的。我是说，围绕这个已经形成了一个完整的产业，有成千上万的网站和机构在撮合这些婚姻。根据调查，似乎有一些非常正规的机构，在某种程度上像是国际交友平台，它们会把人们匹配在一起。然后似乎还有很多非常可疑的机构，收取巨额费用，却不为男方或女方的利益着想。

Yeah. I mean, there's a full industry built around this with thousands of websites and agencies that are brokering these marriages. And, from looking into it, it seems like there are some really above board ones that kind of act like an international dating surface in some ways, where they group, you know, match like people together. And then it seems like there are a lot of really sketchy ones that charge people a ton of money and aren't looking out for the men or the women.

是啊。那些钱一分都没用来改进他们的网站，让它看起来不那么像包含g的样子。

Yeah. None of that money is sunk back into making their website look at all not include g.

我看到过一些非常、非常糟糕的网站。我是说，

I saw some really, really bad websites. I mean,

糟糕透了，老兄。比如，我我甚至看到过Comic Sans字体。

so bad, man. Like, I I saw Comic Sans at one point.

没错。看到这些很难不让人怀疑，要么a)这是个骗局，要么b)这是某种非法交易的幌子。

Yeah. It's hard to see those and not think, well, a, this is a scam or b, this is a front for some sort of seedy trafficking operation.

对。确实很难不这么想。但我们讨论的一般是一种夫妻双方基本互不相识的婚姻。可能见过一面，但就算见过，也可能只是在一两天前。

Right. Yeah. And it is tough not not to think like that. But but what we are talking about generally is a a a marriage where the husband and the wife are generally unknown to each other. Maybe have met once, but if they did, it's possible it was just a day or two before.

嗯。或者他们可能见过一两次面，并通过书信往来了一段时间。但那还是很短暂。按照传统定义，他们基本上互不相识。其中一方，通常是新娘，会从很远的地方搬到丈夫家，在那里生活并结婚。

Mhmm. Or maybe they've met once or twice and have done some correspondence back and forth for an extended period of time. But that's pretty new. In in in the classical definition, it's they're generally unknown to one another. And one of them, usually the the bride, travels a very long distance from home to move to the husband's home and make a life there and and be married.

这不是韦氏词典的定义。我的定义里有很多磕磕绊绊的地方，但我觉得大体上表达清楚了。

That's not the Webster's definition. There's a lot more stumbling in my definition, but I think that generally gets it across.

是的。而且，你知道，典型的刻板印象就是一位四十多岁或五十多岁、有点积蓄的美国单身男性，在美国找不到伴侣，最终娶了一位年轻貌美的乌克兰姑娘，她英语不太流利，却渴望在美国生活并爱上一位美国男人。这种情况当然也发生在其他国家，但人们通常联想到俄罗斯、乌克兰或是东南亚等地。我觉得当人们提起‘邮购新娘’这个词时，大多数人脑海中浮现的大概就是这种画面。

Yeah. And, you know, the the kind of the classic thing that you think of is lonely American man who has a little bit of money in his forties or 50s, can't find American woman, and ends up getting a young, beautiful young Ukrainian woman who doesn't speak much English and would love to live in The United States and and fall in love with an American man. And that sort of and, know, of course, it happens from all countries, but a lot of times you think of Russia and The Ukraine or maybe in Southeast Asia or something like that. That is sort of I feel like when people say that term, most people that's probably what pops into their head.

没错。或者说我觉得你说得还算客气了。很多人可能会觉得，这就是个在美国找不到女人的可怜虫，只能去国外找，然后还要被大家指指点点。人们对邮购婚姻的评判确实很苛刻，这种偏见在美国由来已久——

Yeah. Or I think you're being rather generous. I think a lot of people would be like, you know, some sad sack who can't like find a woman in America has to go look elsewhere to get really judgy about it. And I think people are really judgy about mail order marriages. I think there's a long

确实。

Right.

——美国社会长期对通过非传统渠道（比如邮购婚姻）自主解决婚恋问题的人持有严厉批判态度。这种评判或许有道理，或许没有。但我觉得如今还有个因素，就是那些寻求邮购新娘的男性往往控制欲强、可能有暴力倾向，他们想找温顺听话、对丈夫唯命是从的女性。所以他们得去其他文化中寻找这种特质更普遍的地方，那里的女性比不愿忍受这种待遇的美国女性更可能接受这种关系。

Standing tradition in The United States of considering people who who go outside the traditional channels of marriage and basically take it into their own hands, like through mail order marriage are they're they're very much judged harshly and criticized. Maybe maybe fairly, maybe not. But I think there's another component too, especially these days, is that the men who who are looking for women for mail order brides are also dominant, domineering, possibly abusive, and they're looking for docile women who will do whatever they say because they're the husband. So they have to go to other cultures where that might be more prevalent, where they can select from women who might respond to that kind of thing a lot better than an American woman who wouldn't put up with his guff.

确实，这种情况时有发生。有些中介机构甚至公然宣传这种顺从性，有家机构直接说这些年轻女性‘未被女权主义污染’，还声称每周能省下150美元家务开支，因为本质上你得到了一位住家保姆。

Yeah, I mean, that is certainly a part of what happens sometimes. And some of these agencies promote that, the submissive nature. There was one that literally said that these young women are unspoiled by feminism, And you have potential homemaking savings of $150 a week because you're essentially getting a, you know, sort of a live in domestic servant.

天啊。

Good Lord.

所以你看，这就是邮购婚姻的阴暗面。不过我们也发现有些机构确实正规，有些人看起来是真心寻找爱情，只是在本国屡屡受挫才把目光投向海外。

So, you know, that's the underbelly and the dark side. But we, you know, I did find some that do seem very above board and people that do genuinely look like they're looking for love and have struck out at home. So they're looking elsewhere.

是的。所以我对查克说，我们还应该提另一件事，你知道，这在美国算是相当普遍的现象。虽然不是人尽皆知，也不会在深夜脱口秀的每个独白里听到。但大体上，美国人对邮购婚姻是有所了解和熟悉的。

Yeah. So I said Chuck, and we should also say one other thing too, like, you know, it's pretty like it's a pretty well known thing in America. It's not like on everybody's lips. You don't hear it in every monologue on the late night talk shows or anything like that. But like generally, people in America are familiar and know about mail order marriages.

但事实证明，在其他国家规模更大，比如台湾和韩国的邮购婚姻产业非常庞大，甚至可能超过美国。我不想说它在美国很盛行，但也不是少数边缘人群的小众行为，它比你想象的要普遍。而在一些其他亚洲国家，规模还要更大。

But it turns out, it's even bigger in other countries like Taiwan and South Korea have huge mail order marriage industries that may even dwarf The United States. And it's pretty, I don't wanna say it's huge in The United States, but it's not like just some small speck of sliver of like an arcane group of people, like it's bigger than you think. But it's even bigger in some other Asian countries as well.

没错。戴夫·鲁斯帮我们整理了这些内容，这对他来说是个艰巨的任务。他参考了南卡罗来纳大学法学教授玛莎·祖格所著书籍中的大量信息

Yeah. And Dave Roos helped us put this together, and this was tough assignment for him. But he used a lot of information from a book by a legal professor, originally from University of South Carolina named Marsha Zug

嗯。

Mhmm.

书名叫《购买新娘》（插入冒号音乐，杰瑞），一部关于邮购婚姻引人入胜的历史著作。她在书中似乎对邮购婚姻历代历史进行了公正但相当有力的辩护——虽然我们会深入讨论这点——认为它为许多女性提供了在可能毫无权利的年代获得更多自主权和权利的途径，直至今日她仍在一定程度上为其辩护，并指出：当然这些情况可能很糟糕，但真正糟糕的是无证移民在这个国家不得不忍受的苦难，因为他们没有合法权利。他们不能报警，也不敢离开配偶或伴侣，害怕被驱逐出境。这是个有趣的观点。我很高兴戴夫发现了这本书，因为我不确定自己是否能如此公正。

Called Buying a Bride, insert colon music, Jerry, an engaging history of mail order matches, where it seems like she gives a fair but fairly full throated defense of its history through the ages, as far as and we'll get into this but as far as an opportunity for a lot of women to gain more agency, and to gain more rights at a time when they might not have any, all the way up through today, where she still defends it to a certain degree and says, sure, these situations can be bad, but what's really bad is what undocumented immigrants have to suffer through in this country, because they have no legal rights. They can't go to the police. They can't leave their spouse or their partner for fear of deportation. And it's an interesting take, I think. And I'm glad that Dave found this book, you know, because I don't I'm not sure that I would have been as fair.

是啊。没错。她给我的印象是，她几乎是在为这个行业辩护，只因它遭受了太多不公待遇，在她看来很大程度上是被冤枉的。

Yeah. Yeah. No. She definitely almost I get the impression that she is defensive on behalf of the industry just because of how mistreated it's been, and in her opinion, unfairly in large part.

对。因为我觉得这个行业有反女权的名声并非没有道理，但她确实提出了一些令人信服的观点，表明历史上...嗯...根本不是那样。我想我们可以开始深入探讨其中一些内容了。

Yeah. So because, you know, I think it very much has an anti feminist rep for good reason, but she does make some compelling arguments that throughout history Mhmm. It wasn't that way at all. And I guess we can go ahead and dive into some of that. Yeah.

在美洲殖民地早期的邮购婚姻时期，早期殖民地确实存在女性短缺的问题。

In the early days of mail order marriages in the American colonies, there was a lack of women problem in the early colonies.

我是说最早的殖民地时期。比如詹姆斯敦那样的地方。

I mean, like the earliest colonies. We're talking like Jamestown here.

没错。清教徒和朝圣者可能举家迁徙而来，但也有许多单身男性前来。其中有些人可能会与土著女性私奔，融入她的部落生活，心想：去他的詹姆斯敦建设，我要离开这里。这对于需要年轻男性建设新兴殖民地的需求来说可不是好事。

Yeah. Like, you know, the Puritans and Pilgrims, they may have come over with their families, but there are a lot of single men that came over. And a lot of them some of them may run off with an indigenous woman and live with among her tribe, and be like, you know what, I'm kind of done building things for Jamestown. I'm out of here. So that's no good if they're looking for young men to like, kind of help build up these young colonies.

还有些人纯粹感到孤独，抱怨说：这里根本没有女性，我们该怎么办？于是很早他们就开始打广告引进女性——名义上是自愿前来殖民地的女性，这些女性在新大陆甚至可能获得比故乡更多的权利。

And then other ones were just lonely, and said, Hey, there are no women over here. What are we supposed to do? So very early on, they started sort of advertising and bringing women, you know, supposedly volunteers over, who wanted to come to the colonies and and sort of have maybe even more rights than they had back home.

是的。这完美体现了美国建国头两个世纪的主流做法——政府批准并支持邮购婚姻，以此建立更稳定的社区，对吧？

Yeah. And this is a really good example of kind of like a thread that ran through the first couple centuries of America's founding, which was government sanctioned and supported mail order marriages in order to help build more stable communities. Right?

正是如此。

So Right.

立法机构还制定了相关法律增加当地对邮购新娘的吸引力。比如在英格兰，寡妇只能继承三分之一的遗产。而在弗吉尼亚和马里兰等地，法律规定寡妇能保留更多财产，甚至可以自主经营生意——当寡妇简直太棒了。更别说这里的男性正像苍蝇般接连死去呢？

The the legislatures did things like create laws that made it more attractive for a woman to become a mail order bride in this area. Like apparently in England, if you became a widow, you you got a third of the estate and that was it. And in places like Virginia and I think Maryland as well, they set up laws that basically said, hey, you're gonna keep a lot more than that. You can run your own business afterward like being a widow's gonna rock. And did we mention also the men are dropping dead like flies over here?

所以，是啊。

So Yeah.

你丈夫可能很快就会去世。所以如果你不喜欢他，谁在乎呢？你依然能继承这一切，保住生意，而在英格兰那种环境下你很难靠自己过得这么好。所以这吸引了人们。就像是政府在说，请过来嫁给这些你从未谋面的陌生人吧。

Your husband's probably gonna die pretty quick. So if you don't like him, who cares? You still get to keep all this inheritance and you get to keep the business and you can't do quite that well for yourself in those circumstances back in England. So that attracted people. And that was like the government saying, like, please come over here and marry these strangers that you've never met before.

是啊。而且，你知道，这对许多年轻女性来说是有道理的，因为她们中很多人，比如说，来自仆役阶层。她们在英格兰要面对多年的奴役生活，然后她们基本上就想，算了，别管那些了。为什么不直接过来结婚呢？就像你说的，我记得统计显示甚至三分之一的婚姻能维持十年。是的。

Yeah. And, you know, it made sense for a lot of these young women, because many of them were, you know, they were from like the servant class, let's say. So they were looking at years of servitude in England, and then they basically were like, well, hey, forget all that. Why don't you just come over here, get married, and like you said, I think the stat is even one in three marriages lasted ten years. Yeah.

所以他们某种程度上向她们推销了这个事实：如果情况不太好，他可能很快就会死。

So they did kind of sell them on the fact that, yeah, if it's not so great, he'll probably be dead soon enough.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后你就能得到他的东西。

And then you can have his stuff.

是啊。实际上，我是说，那确实吸引了一些女性。至少我认为——虽然不确定具体数字——但确实存在所谓的'烟草新娘'，她们来嫁给那些正在建立自己财富的新烟草种植者。这些人实际上必须通过向弗吉尼亚公司捐赠150磅金叶烟草来证明自己的财力，才能参与其中，对吧？所以这种情况持续了它该持续的时间。

Yeah. And it actually I mean, like that that actually did, like, attract some women. I think at least I don't I don't know if we have the number, but it there definitely were what they called tobacco wives who came to marry new tobacco planters who were setting up their own fortune and I actually had to prove that they were of financial means by donating a 150 pounds of gold leaf tobacco to the Virginia company to to take part in this. Right? And so that that lasted as long as it lasted or as long as it needed to.

随着东部殖民地逐渐变得自给自足，不再那么喧闹，对欧洲人而言更趋于家庭化，那些邮购新娘的需求也就逐渐消失了。但随着美国不断向西扩张，边疆地区在不同地方不断重现。从东部殖民地到密西西比河流域，再到更远的西部，每次新的边疆开拓都会吸引一群粗犷的男性定居者。他们不得不设法吸引女性前来婚配，好让这些汉子们停止酒吧斗殴，成为更有生产力的公民。这种模式贯穿了整个18至19世纪的美国历史。

And as the Eastern colonies started to like become more self sufficient, became less rowdy, became more family oriented as far as the Europeans were concerned, the the need for like those mail order schemes kinda went away. But then as America kind of expanded further and further west, the frontier kept recreating itself in different places. So, you know, it went from the Eastern colonies to, you know, along the Mississippi and then further and further out west. And every time it did that, this new iteration of the frontier was settled by rowdy men and they would have to figure out a way to get women to attract women to come out to marry the rowdy men so they would stop beating each other up in bar fights and and become more productive citizens. And that kept going on throughout the the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries in The United States.

是啊。如果你已经在想：天啊，这听起来就很糟糕——这种建立在财务安排基础上的婚姻。没错，尽管承诺了更好的生活，但本质上就是我们讨论的这种状况。

Yeah. And, you know, if you're already thinking, guys, this this already sounds terrible. These marriage is based on these financial arrangements. Yeah. And, you know, despite these promises of a better life, like, that's kinda what we're talking about.

欢迎来到17-18世纪的婚姻世界。

Like, welcome to marriage in the seventeenth and eighteenth century.

对，别太天真了。

Yeah, don't be so naive.

确实如此。Dave说得很好，为真爱结婚这个概念，很大程度上是20世纪才出现的命题。

Yeah, that's not that's kind of what it was. And Dave made a good point, like, the notion of marrying for true love, that's a very much like a twentieth century proposition.

没错。

Yeah.

即便不是邮购新娘的形式，也会通过嫁妆或父母包办婚姻——'这个家族应该和那个家族联姻'，这种现象至今仍存在于上流社会精英阶层中，我必须指出。

Even if it wasn't a mail order bride situation, it was someone's dowry or or parents sort of arranging marriages and saying this family should marry this family, which still goes on today, I should point out, among like the blue chip and the high society.

当然。

Sure.

比如，亚瑟不得不娶苏珊，你知道的。别忘了这一点。

Like, and Arthur had to marry Susan, you know. Let's not forget that.

我猜，每个有哈布斯堡下巴的人都是包办婚姻。

Everybody with a Habsburg jaw was an arranged marriage, I'm guessing.

你可以娶丽莎·明奈利，那位为皇后区服务的年轻女招待。抱歉。

You could marry Liza Minnelli, the young waitress for Queens. Sorry.

我没意识到你在引用电影。我以为你是，我以为你

I didn't realize you were making the movie reference. I thought you were I thought you

在用其他什么亚瑟和苏珊。

were using What other Arthur and Susan.

我以为你在用像比夫和玛菲这样的名字，比如，基因基因或

I thought you were using like Biff and Muffy, like, gen gen or

哦，亚瑟，好吧。

Oh, Arthur and okay.

贵族血统。

Blue blood.

是的。是的。

Yeah. Yeah.

我现在明白了。我懂了。

I got it now. I got it.

但关键在于，那时的婚姻大多是一种财务安排。我并不是说没有人因为相爱而结婚，我相信这种情况也存在。但当时他们需要考虑很多条件。所以这某种程度上是当时的常态，而这为早期移民和西进拓荒者解决了问题。加利福尼亚为女性提供了极具吸引力的条件。

But the point is is that marriage was a financial arrangement many and most times back then. I'm not saying no one ever married because they were in love, I'm sure that happened. But they had to tick a lot of boxes back then. So it was just sort of the way it was, and so this solved problems for early settlers and for westward expanders. They made things really attractive in California for women.

如果你想离婚，他们让离婚变得更容易。他们还让女性合法拥有、买卖土地成为可能，这在美国其他地区是做不到的。所以他们试图创造一个吸引女性西迁的环境，因为那里需要男女共同发展。据我所知，1850至1860年间，加州女性人口比例从总人口的3%上升到了19%。所以这个策略是有效的。

They made it easier to divorce your husband, if you wanted to. They made it easier to or just legal to own and sell buy and sell land, which is not something you could do at other places in the country. So they were trying to make it an attractive situation for women to move west, because they needed men and women out there. And I think between 1850 and 1860, population of women in California increased from 3% to 19% of the total population. So it was working.

确实如此。而且不仅是加州，华盛顿州也参与其中，俄勒冈可能也是。那里会有各种计划——我指的‘计划’不是那种邪恶的阴谋，而是真正的规划方案。

Yeah, it was. And it wasn't just California, but Washington State also participated. I think Oregon may have as well. And there would be there the the schemes, and I don't mean scheme like, you know, like dastardly scheme, but like a plan.

这是个好计划。没错。

It's a good scheme. Yeah.

就像有个家伙会跑到华盛顿领地的单身汉那儿说，给我100美元或300美元（相当于现在的5美元），我就给你找个合适的妻子。至少真有这么一个人这么干过。阿萨·默瑟是个婚姻经纪人，他会跑到东部说，嘿，西部经济正蓬勃发展，不如跟我走吧？然后他带着大约100名女性回来，有些人立刻结婚，有些人则等待时机。

Where like a guy would go around to the bachelors out in like Washington territory and be like, give me a $100 or I think $300, which is about $5 today, and I will bring you a suitable wife. And at least one guy did this. Aza Mercer was a marriage broker, and he would go back east, say, hey, there's like this great booming economy out west. Why don't you come with me? And like, he would return with like a 100 women and some of them would get married immediately, some would wait.

但这又是一种情况，表明需要女性来稳定失控的男性人口。

But it was like another it was another thing where there was a need for women to stabilize an out of control male population.

是啊，祖格在她的书中公正地指出，这些被称为'默瑟女孩'的女性中，有些来自阿萨·默瑟的运作，她们成为废奴主义者、女权倡导者和社会改革者。其中一位名叫梅希塔布尔·哈斯克尔·埃尔德（这名字真棒），她组织了1871年在华盛顿奥林匹亚举行的女权会议，并邀请苏珊·B·安东尼作为该领地代表参加全国妇女选举权协会大会。所以你看，很多情况下这些女性确实找到了自主权，摆脱了东部更糟糕的处境。

Yeah, and you know, Zug points out very fairly in her book that some of these Mercer girls from, as they were called from Asa Mercer's operation, abolitionists, some became women's rights advocates and social reformers. One of them's name was, this is a great name, Mehittable Haskell Elder. And she organized the eighteen seventy one Women's Rights Conference in Olympia, Washington, and recruited one Susan B. Anthony as the territory delegate for the National Woman Suffrage Association Convention. So, you know, in a lot of cases, these women did find agency, and they did get out of a better situation than they were in back East.

嘿，要不要休息一下？然后我们聊聊可能是邮购婚姻真正起源的故事？

Hey. So you wanna take a break, and then we'll talk about the the probably what was the real birth of mail order marriages?

好啊。

Sure.

好的，我们马上回来。使用Capital One银行服务能让你的钱包更鼓，因为支票账户没有费用或最低限额，也没有透支费。问问Capital One的银行小哥就知道了——他总爱聊这个，而且是真心实意地推荐。

Okay. We'll be right back. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way.

他还会告诉你，这个播客也是他最喜欢的播客。谢谢，Capital One银行的先生。你的钱包里有什么？条款适用。详情请见capital1.com/bank。

He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital1.com/bank.

Capital One NA，FDIC成员。

Capital One NA, member FDIC.

我们来聊聊你可能从未考虑过的东西——你的沙发。

Let's talk about something you probably haven't thought about, your couch.

没错，就是那个你打盹、吃饭、哭泣时都离不开的家伙。

Yeah. That thing you nap on, eat it on, cry on.

事实证明，大多数沙发基本上都是细菌的游乐场。

Turns out that most Silphas are basically bacteria playgrounds.

千真万确。我们查过了，情况不妙。

It's true. We looked it up. It's not good.

但Anabate改变了这一点。它是可水洗的，完全可水洗。拆下沙发套，扔进洗衣机。砰，干净如新。

But Anabate changes that. It's washable, like fully washable. Take the covers off, throw them in the machine. Boom. Clean.

而且，它的价格实际上相当亲民，这在同类产品中实属难得。

Also, it's actually affordable, which is surprisingly rare.

所以，如果你每天都要坐在某个东西上，或许不该让它成为生物危害源。关键在于，它不仅实用，价格也合理。仅需699美元起，就能让你的沙发既干净又舒适。

So, yeah, if you're gonna sit on something every day, maybe don't make it a biohazard. And here's the kicker. It's not just practical. It's affordable. Starting at just $699, you can make your sofa as clean as it is comfy.

现在购买Anabay沙发，甚至可享高达6折优惠。说实话，你值得拥有比细菌培养皿更好的休憩之所。立即访问washablesofas.com，给你的沙发来个急需的升级。网址是washablesofas.com。

Right now, you can even get up to 60% off your Anabay sofa. Because let's be real, you deserve better than a germ factory for a place to rest your head. Check out washablesofas.com now and give your couch the upgrade it's begging for. That's washablesofas.com.

大家注意了，领英已发展成为拥有超过10亿专业人士和1.3亿决策者的网络，这正是它区别于其他广告投放平台的地方。

Hey, everybody. Get this. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1,000,000,000 professionals and a 130,000,000 decision makers, and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys.

没错。你可以根据职位、行业、公司、角色、资历、技能甚至公司收入来精准定位目标客户，从此告别预算浪费在错误受众上的困扰。

Yeah. For sure. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, even company revenue so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience.

是的。这就是为什么领英广告在所有在线广告网络中能带来最高的B2B投资回报率，真的是所有平台中最高的。

Yep. That's why LinkedIn ads generates the highest b to b row as of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them.

还有更棒的，如果你在领英广告首次投放花费250美元，下次还能获得250美元免费额度。只需访问linkedin.com/sysk，重复一遍linkedin.com/sysk。条款与条件适用。

And get this, if you spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads, you get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com/sysk. That's linkedin.com/sysk. Terms and conditions apply.

好的，查克。我们谈到目前为止，主要讨论了政府认可的方案，目的是稳定男性人口。同时，从十九世纪开始——实际上我认为是十八世纪始于英国——另一种现象也在同步发展。那就是婚姻广告行业，在我看来，这就是我们今天所理解的邮购婚姻产业的真正起源。基本上就是个人广告。

Alright, Chuck. So we've been talking to this point about basically like government sanctioned schemes to kind of stabilize male populations. There was also at the same time beginning in the nineteenth century, I think starting in England, actually in the eighteenth century, that was kind of simultaneously unfolding. And that was the matrimonial advertisement industry, which to me is like the real birth of the mail order marriage industry that we understand today. But it was basically the personal ads.

没错。那是个人广告的诞生，也是婚介服务的起源。有趣的是，女性会在伦敦——后来在美国也是——在报纸上刊登广告，基本上就是说：'嗨，这是我，这是我在寻找的。'就像现在你在交友资料上看到的那样。这是她们用来争取一些自主权的方式，避免父母安排的包办婚姻。嗯。

Yeah. It was the birth of personal ads, the birth of dating services. It's really interesting in that women would put ads in London, and then later on in The United States, ads in the paper, basically saying, you know, Hi, this is who I am, this is what I'm looking for. I mean, much like you would see these days in like a dating profile. And it was a way for them to, you know, to take some agency over avoiding the arranged marriage that their parents had set up for him Mhmm.

也许还能稍微挑选一下追求者。

And maybe get a little bit of choice of suitors.

对。我的意思是，这就像是掌控自己的婚姻前景。这在当时——我想用'激进'这个词很贴切——但它确实流行起来了。尤其是在美国，到了十九世纪末。

Right. And I mean, like, that is like taking control of your own of your own marriage prospects. And and it was I guess radical is probably a pretty good word, but it picked up. It caught on. Especially in The US by the end of the nineteenth century.

它真的开始流行起来，甚至出现了专门刊登婚姻广告的杂志。对吧？比如《婚姻新闻》，这其实是我们所有例子中最直白的……

It really started to catch on to where they were like magazines that were like dedicated just to matrimonial advertisements. Right? Yeah. Like there was the the matrimonial news, which is actually the most straight ahead of all of our

是啊。我喜欢《丘比特的信使》这个名字，听起来挺可爱的。

Yeah. I like Cupid's Messenger. That sounds like a cute one.

那《心与手》呢？

What about Heart and Hand?

心与手。对我来说，这个嘛，我想他们只是想非常谨慎行事，标准的通信俱乐部。

Heart and Hand. And then to me, this one, I guess they were just trying to play it really safe, the standard correspondence club.

对。祝你今天愉快。对。

Right. Good day to you. Right.

正是如此。

Exactly.

所以，是的。这些东西在十九世纪末相当流行。但后来，就像你之前说的，到了十九世纪末二十世纪初，我们对婚姻构成或婚姻原因的观念在美国已经从财务安排转变为爱情。对吧？

So, yeah. So these things were like kind of popular by the end of the nineteenth century. But then, it's like you said earlier, the by by the end of the nineteenth century, the beginning of the twentieth century, our ideas about what constituted marriage or the reasons for marriage had transitioned from financial arrangements into love in America. Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

因此，同时出现了婚姻广告的流行和人们掌控自己婚姻前景的现象。与此同时，社会普遍对此类行为持批评和鄙视态度。报纸上会有关于可怜的老光棍或孤独的寡妇被骗、上当的故事，用今天的话说就是被‘钓鱼’了。人们喜欢读这类故事，嘲笑他们的不幸并看不起这些人。而这正是今天人们对邮购婚姻行业态度的根源，至少在美国，这确实可以追溯到二十世纪。

And so, there was simultaneously a popularity of matrimonial advertisements and people taking control of their own marriage prospects. And at the same time, a criticism and a like society generally looking down upon people who did that kind of thing. So there would be stories in the paper of people like sad sack bachelors or lonely heart widows getting conned or swindled or getting fooled catfished basically is what you'd call it today. And people love to read that kind of stuff and laugh at their misfortune and look down on these people. And that that that's where, like, the root of what people still do today to the mail order marriage industry, at least in America, really finds its roots in the in the twentieth century.

是的。这时事情开始转向海外。美国男性开始从国外引进女性。我认为就是在这时，它开始更像一个产业，也是国会开始全力以种族主义手段试图控制这件事的时候。是的。

Yeah. And this is when things started transitioning to overseas. When American men started bringing in women from foreign countries. And that's when I think that's when it became a bit more of an industry, and this is when Congress got kind of full on racist in trying to control this thing. Yeah.

因为当时有女性声称，不希望这些外来女性进入我们的国家，扰乱我们正在推动的女权议程。也有男性表示，我们不希望来自中国或日本的人入境，他们可以一年生一个孩子。参议员们甚至公开说出这类言论。于是他们颁布了诸如1882年《排华法案》这样的法律，实质上是在宣称‘我们会被淹没’，以此禁止中国移民。

Because there was, you know, there were women saying, I don't want these women coming into our country and disrupting our feminist agenda that we're trying to push. There were men saying, We don't want people from China or Japan coming in here, and they can have babies once a year. There were senators literally saying these things. And so they would enact laws, like, we're going to be overrun, basically. So they would enact laws like the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 to ban Chinese immigration.

日本通过1907年《君子协定》找到了漏洞，该协定规定：若日本女性及其子女已婚便可入境。因此当时已在美国的日本单身男性移民会通过类似目录相亲的方式，在未见面的情况下结婚。嗯。目的是为了让日本女性获得移民身份。

There was a loophole for Japan with the 1907 gentleman's agreement, which basically said if you that a Japanese woman and their kids could come over if they were married, so there were Japanese single men already in The United States that immigrated over here, that would get married sight unseen from like a catalog basically Mhmm. To in order to gain immigration status for the Japanese women.

这种局面最终随着1924年《移民法案》的出台而终结，该法案直接禁止了所有日本移民。因此从19世纪末到20世纪初，基于移民问题形成了强烈的反亚裔思潮，其中邮购婚姻成为焦点之一。但另一个随之浮现的问题是：当邮购婚姻从东部女性、欧洲女性转向亚洲女性与白人男性结合时，人们普遍认为这些女性不过是为了绿卡——即美国公民身份，试图逃离本国。这种批评至今仍存，就像1924年针对日本人的《移民法案》时期一样强烈。

And then that ultimately got shut down in 1924 with the immigration act, and they just said no Japanese immigration of any any kind now after that. So there was a huge anti Asian thread from the late nineteenth century and the early twentieth century based on immigration and a lot of that kind of centered on mail order marriages. But then one of the other things that that really kind of cropped up as a result of mail order marriages going from like women back East or women coming from Europe to women coming from Asia to marry white American men, was there there was this idea that the women were nothing more than like looking for a green card basically, American citizenship, trying to escape their own country. And you run into that criticism today, I mean, just as much as you would have back in 1924 when they passed the the Immigration Act against Japanese people.

确实如此。根据祖格书中的记载，墨西哥、希腊、亚洲、犹太和意大利女性更容易以‘可能成为公共负担’（LPC）的罪名被驱逐，即认定她们可能来美后依赖政府救济。

Oh, yeah. Because, you know, and this is from Zug's book. She talks about, you know, Mexican women, Greek women, Asian women, Jewish women, Italian women, they were much more likely to be deported under an LPC charge, which is a person that is likely to become a public charge, basically, like to come over and sort of live off the government,

如果

if

她们来自这些国家，规避驱逐的方法就是通过结婚获得绿卡。所以这类批评几乎立刻就出现了。

they were from these countries, and a way around that was to get married and get that green card. So that criticism, like, came pretty straight away, I think.

没错。另一种指控是：她们本质上都是伪装成邮购新娘的性工作者，实则是来美卖淫、行为不端。这种指责至今仍存在，只不过焦点从‘社会受这些不道德女性侵害’转变为‘女性被国际犯罪集团贩卖’的叙事。

Right. And then the other one is that that they were basically all just sex workers in disguise coming over under the guise of being Right. Meal order brides. But really, they were coming over here to prostitute themselves and behave immorally. And again, this is another accusation that you see today except the the the onus has or the the focus, the empathy I guess has evolved from being put on society, being attacked by these immoral women to the women themselves being trafficked by international criminals.

但这本质上仍是同样的指控，只是形式有所改变。你明白我的意思吗？

But it's still generally the same accusation. It's just been it's just altered itself. You know what I'm saying?

没错，完全正确。要知道，那种来自美国女性的反女权主义指责——嗯哼——说这些外国女性来到这里后对丈夫言听计从，正在拖我们的后腿。

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know, that sort of anti feminist charge from American women Mhmm. Saying that, you know, these women from other countries are coming over here, and they they do whatever their husbands tell them, and this is setting us back.

当年对战地新娘也是同样的论调。如果你是从朝鲜或越南战场带回妻子的军人，她们也会遭受类似的指控，说你们带回这些女性纯粹是因为获得了权力不对等的优势。

They would say the same thing though about war brides. If you were a soldier in Korea or Vietnam and brought a woman back over, they would have that same kind of charge levied against them, saying the only reason you're bringing these women back is because of the power imbalance that is now gained.

那个

That

在某种程度上确实如此。讨论这种婚姻关系很难不涉及初始阶段的不平等与权力失衡。当然也存在双方平等、相互尊重、共同付出的成功案例。但每当有人将伴侣从困境中带到更富裕的国度，通过中介服务支付费用时，从一开始就存在权力不对等。

can be fair to a certain degree. There's a lot there is it's really hard to talk about marriage like this without talking about inequity and a power imbalance from the beginning. Not to say that that doesn't change, and that there aren't great success stories where both partners are equal, and they both contribute, and they both respect one another's viewpoints. But there any time you are in a situation where you are bringing someone over from another country that is escaping a bad situation and looking for a more prosperous situation, and you can provide that, and you are paying the money to the service for linking you, there's a power imbalance there from the beginning.

是啊。这种权力失衡体现在：作为邮购新娘可能语言不通，没有朋友家人，缺乏可依赖的社会支持体系。

Yeah. Well, there's a power imbalance in that, like, probably don't speak the language as the mail order bride. You don't have any friends. You don't have any family. You don't have any social structure to depend on.

唯一能依靠的只有丈夫。对吧？如果他对你不好甚至施虐——是的——你就陷入大麻烦了。就像你说的，如果当初是为逃离家乡的贫困而来，可能身无分文。

The only person you have to depend on is your husband. Right. If he's not very nice to you or even worse, abusive towards you Yes. You're in a you're in big trouble. And then it's also like you said, if you were escaping poverty back home, you might show up with basically no money.

所以如果你刚发现这个男人并非如表面那般完美，或者他有暴力倾向，甚至有严重的犯罪记录或信用问题，以及其他种种你原本不会接受的缺陷，你就被困在这里了。根据一些人口贩卖组织的定义，这广义上就属于人口贩卖——一个人因经济利益被转移到另一个地方，最终在经济上陷入依赖，处于他们原本不愿选择的境地。这与某人被绑架强迫从事性工作一样，都是广义上的人口贩卖。

And so if you just found out that this guy is not always cracked up to be or he is abusive or he's actually got a terrible criminal record or terrible credit or all sorts of stuff that you wouldn't have otherwise come over for, you're stuck here. And according to some human trafficking groups, that is a that is a broad definition of human trafficking, where a person is moved from one place to another for financial means and then ends up becoming dependent financially in a situation that they otherwise wouldn't want to be in. They would not have chosen to put themselves in. That's as much human trafficking in a broad definition as somebody being kidnapped and forced into sex work.

没错。即使没有实际的暴力或虐待行为，也不意味着这是公平的处境。就像你说的，如果她们不会当地语言，在这里没有代言人或朋友帮助发声，她们本质上就像被囚禁在自己家里。这确实能理解为什么这种模式会招致恶名。

Yeah. And even if there is no, you know, no literal violence or abuse Mhmm. It that doesn't mean that it's an equitable situation, because someone can essentially be a almost a captive in their own home, like you said, if they don't speak the language, they have no advocates over here for themselves Mhmm. Or friends to help them and speak up for them, and it's you can see why it gets a bad rap for sure.

但反过来说，肯定也有那些在美国或美国女性/男性身上屡屡碰壁，于是主动寻求海外婚姻的男性。通过婚姻中介是最便捷的方式，这类服务现在遍地都是。另一个问题是，如果把邮购新娘单纯定性为待宰的受害者，就完全忽视了许多人的个性——选择成为邮购新娘本身，相比认命地留守故乡，反而展现了非凡的主动性。

So on the flip side though, there have to be men out there who just struck out consistently with America or American women or men and took matters into their own hands and looked abroad. And the best way to do that is a marriage broker. And there's plenty of places you can do that. And then also, the other problem with just basically characterizing mail order brides as nothing but like victims ripe for exploitation is to really miss the personalities of a lot of them. Where to put yourself out there as a mail order bride shows a or demonstrates like a lot of initiative compared to just staying back home and making do with your lot in life.

比如在某些国家，带着孩子的寡妇可能无法再婚，没人愿意娶她们，注定孤独终老或独自抚养孩子。如果她们认命说‘这就是我的宿命’...

Mhmm. Like if you're a widow in some countries and you have kids, you might not be remarriable. There might not be anybody who wants to marry you. And so you're doomed to a life of solitude and single motherhood whether you like it or not. So if you just say, okay, well that's my lot in life.

'我就这样过吧'，那是一种选择。但如果她们说‘不，还有别的出路’...

That's what I'm doing. Okay. Fine. But if you say, you know what? Nope.

‘虽然这或许不是我从前会选择的体面方式，但为了让孩子得到照顾，我要去异国寻找丈夫’——这种决断力彻底颠覆了人们对邮购新娘‘逆来顺受、缺乏主见’的刻板印象。

There's another way out, and it might not be the most tasteful thing that I would have chosen for myself before, but I really wanna make sure my kids are taken care of, and I'm going to go seek a husband elsewhere. That shows that demonstrates a lot of self starterness, I guess, that that I think kind of undermines a lot of the view of of mail order brides as these kind of like simple minded docile women that that can't fend for themselves or stick up for themselves.

是啊。而且评判他人处境真的很危险。我们都崇尚一见钟情的浪漫，认为婚姻就该基于爱情。但当一段关系对双方都奏效时——比如六十多岁的富豪想着‘我要找个伴侣度过余生最后十五年’——贸然评判就太武断了。

Yeah. And you it's also a real slippery slope to to judge. I mean, we we all think like, oh, you should only fall in love with love at first sight, and that should be all it is, and that should be what marriage is based on, full stop. It's a real slippery slope to to judge someone others someone else's situation if it's working out for both of them. If it is a rich old guy in his 60s, who is like, you know what, I want to live out the last fifteen years of my life with a partner.

有位美丽的乌克兰年轻女子，她心想，反正我在这儿也没什么前途。我的国家也没给我带来什么好处。所以我要去嫁给某个有钱人，在他生命的最后十五年里我们会过得幸福。他们一起旅行，乘游轮，共度美好时光。

And there's a beautiful young Ukrainian woman who's like, you know what, I've got nothing going on over here. I don't have a lot of prospects. My country is not, you know, doing me any favors. And so I'm going to go over and marry some rich guy, and we're going to be happy for the last fifteen years of his life. And they travel, and they do take cruises, and they have a good time together.

这就像个危险的滑坡，让人进来就说，不，那是错的。是啊。因为你们并不是像所有美国人那样，在某个夜晚喝醉后在酒吧相遇并坠入爱河。

Like, it's a real slippery slope for someone to come in and say, well, no, that's wrong. Yeah. Because you guys just didn't meet and fall in love, like, you know, meeting in a bar drunk one night. Yeah. Like all like all Americans.

一次又一次，这似乎是一个长期存在的批评，至少在美国可以追溯到一个世纪前。确实如此。好了，这个话题到此为止。

Again and again, that seems to be a long standing criticism that stretches back at least a century here in America too. For sure. Okay. So enough of that. Enough of that.

我觉得我们应该讨论一下邮购婚姻行业的一些具体细节。好吗？

I feel like we should talk about some of the nuts and bolts of the mail order marriage industry. Okay?

好啊，开始吧。

Yeah. Let's do it.

那么，我们开始吧。我找到了1986年的这篇当代新闻报道。

Well, let's start. So I found this contemporary journalism from 1986.

你就是CJ。

You're CJ.

没错。《纽约时报》当时对邮购婚姻行业进行了调查，很好地展现了过去的运作方式。邮购新娘之所以被称为邮购新娘，原因之一在于，那时人们会找到邮购婚姻服务并订阅。

Right. In the New York Times, and they they basically just checked in with the mail order marriage industry at the time. And it gave a really good snapshot of how things used to be. One of the reasons why mail order brides were called mail order brides, because time was that you would find a mail order marriage service. You would subscribe to that service.

《纽约时报》提到年费在50到500美元之间。

The New York Times says anywhere between 50 to $500 a year.

一个月。

A month.

嗯，是年度订阅费，50到500美元。然后每月或隔几个月——可能不会每月两次——你会收到一本目录，明显是由非专业人士制作的，里面是潜在新娘的照片、身体数据、喜好厌恶之类的简介。你翻阅目录后联系服务机构说‘我喜欢编号88972’。

Every well, was for a catalog, annual subscription. Oh, was 50 to 500. Then every month or every couple months or maybe twice a month, probably not twice a month, you would get a catalog that was clearly made by somebody who didn't major in catalog making in college of pictures of the of like a prospective bride, her stats, physical stats, her likes, her dislikes, that kind of thing. Basically a blurb. And you were you'd flip through a catalog and you'd get back in touch with the subscription service and say, I like number 88972.

我还喜欢3755号。你只需列出希望他们代为联系的女性名单，之后你们就开始通信。逐渐缩小范围，最终可能会过去见面，甚至见面当天或次日就结婚。

And I also like 3755. And you just give them a list of of women that you wanted them to reach out to on your behalf And all of a sudden, you would start exchanging letters. Little by little, you would narrow down the the women that you were talking to. And then you would eventually probably go over and meet one and maybe in that trip, marry them. Like, have your wedding, like, that the day you meet them or the day after you met them.

这就是七八十年代邮购婚姻的常规流程，九十年代可能也延续了这种做法。

That was pretty standard for the the seventies and eighties as far as mail order goes, and I think into the nineties as well.

是的。当然现在都转到线上了，根据你选择的机构——我说过有成千上万家——他们会提供各种服务，想方设法在过程中榨取你的钱。无论是订阅费、代写首封信件，还是付费翻译。

Yeah. And of course, it's all online now, and depending on which agency you go through, and like I said, there are thousands, they offer a range of services to, you know, bleed you of as much money as they can in the process. Right. Whether it's subscription fees, or we'll write your letters, first letters for you, and translate them for a fee.

或者

Or

如果你想视频聊天或电话交流，我们可以安排，但需要收费。一切都有价码。根据国际反人口贩卖网站的一篇文章，他们估计每位客户大约花费6000到10000美元。

if you want to video chat or have phone calls, we can arrange that for a fee. Everything has a fee. I think this one and this is from an anti trafficking international website article. They said that estimates show people spend about 6 to $10,000. Each client spends about 6 to $10,000.

是的。我想这适用于那些更高端、更有信誉的机构。有些地方可能你花500美元就能脱身，他们就心满意足了。

Yeah. And I think this is for the, I guess, more high end, more reputable ones. Think think some of those places are happy if they get like $500 out of you and then you'd leave.

嗯，我觉得你可以像个吝啬丈夫，只进行线上交流然后直接见面结婚。但也有提供5美元相亲旅行套餐的——具体合法性取决于国家。比如在越南，邮购新娘整个行业是非法的，却依然猖獗。

Well, I think you can be like a skin flint husband and just do it strictly online and then go meet them and marry them. But there are ones that offer like tours for like $5 Right. Which depending on the country may or may not be legal. Where you like if you went to Vietnam, it would be illegal. In Vietnam, mail order marriages the whole industry is illegal, but it's also rampant there.

没错。

Right.

那里甚至有专门酒店，女性入住后，来自台湾、韩国或美国的男性会组团来相亲。人口贩子可能还逼迫她们从事其他交易。如果看对眼了，你可能当场结婚。这种旅行团，取决于你的价值观，可以是相亲之旅，也可以是越南性旅游。

And there there are like whole hotels that where a woman goes and stays, and then tours of like guys from Taiwan or South Korea or The United States come through and meet them. And I think human trafficking people are like, and do God knows what else for money. And then if if you hit it off with one, maybe you like start talking to them a little more or you marry them on the spot, that kind of thing. But there's like, there's tours you can go on. And depending on your view of the male or marriage industry, it's either a tour where you're going and meeting a lot of prospective brides or it's basically a sex tour to Vietnam.

对。他们还会做些明显像买老婆的操作：比如让女性住指定酒店，安排医生和心理评估，然后把资料发给金主男性做选择——本质上就是在选购新娘。

Right. And they also will do things where it's really hard to not read as a man sort of buying a woman Right. Where they say like, well, you know, we'll put them up in this hotel, and we'll have them go checked out by our doctors and our psychologists. They'll have a psychological evaluation. And all of this information will be sent to you, the man with the money, to make your decision on whether or not you're gonna sort of pay for this bride.

而且真的很难从其他角度看待这件事。你得使劲开动脑筋才行。

And it's it's really hard to look at that any other way than that. Like, really gotta stretch your mind.

是啊。

Yeah.

但接着你会读到这样的故事：一对相爱二十多年的夫妻，在美国养育孩子，共同度过了美好人生。而他们却说，不，这更像是国际婚介服务，他们只是被撮合或者说配对成功了。

And but then you will read a story about a couple that that are deeply in love for twenty years on, and who had kids in America, and who had a great life together. And they were like, no, it was really more like an international dating service, and they just sort of matchmaked, or matchmated, made matched.

撮合成功。这说法真妙。

Matchmaked. I love it.

所以问题是，我不确定我们是否讨论过这样一个话题——让我觉得'好吧，这听起来还不算太糟'，转眼又惊呼'天哪这太可怕了'。

So it's like, it's just I don't know if we've ever had a topic where I was so like, alright, well, this doesn't sound too bad. And like, oh my god, this sounds terrible.

明白。确实。我...我记不清了。

Yeah. I gotcha. Yeah. I I can't remember.

可能这就是行业的本质吧？没错。我觉得两种情形都可能存在。

And that may be the industry, you know? Yeah. I mean I think it can be both those things.

是的。这让你点头称是。它确实兼具这两种特性。问题再次在于，是否其中一方更占优势？如果是的话，这种倾斜偏向哪一边？

Yeah. It makes you yes. And it surely is both of those things. Again, the question is, is one way more than the other? And if so, which way is it lopsided?

如果是这样，我们是否需要效仿越南的做法，禁止邮购婚姻产业？你明白我的意思吗？这确实可能是个巨大的危险信号。为什么越南会全面禁止这个在美国完全合法且正常的行业？

And if so, do we need to like follow Vietnam's footsteps and outlaw the marriage the mail order marriage industry? You know what I'm saying? It's like Sure. That that that may be a really big red flag. Like why did Vietnam outlaw an entire industry that's totally like fine and legal here in The United States?

没错。

Right.

那么，我们该休息一下吗？是的，我认为该休息了，之后我们再讨论互联网时代的邮购婚姻，因为情况已有些变化。

So Should we take a break? Yeah. I think we should take a break, and we'll talk about mail order marriages in the Internet age because things have changed a little bit.

对。还有相关法律。是的。对吧？没错。

Yeah. And some of the laws. Yeah. Right? Right.

好的。我们马上回来。

Alright. We'll be right back.

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Let's talk about something you probably haven't thought about, your couch.

没错，就是你打盹、吃饭、哭泣时躺的那个家伙。

Yeah. That thing you nap on, eat on, cry on.

事实证明大多数沙发简直就是细菌的游乐场。

Turns out that most Silphas are basically bacteria playgrounds.

是真的，我们查过了，情况不太妙。

It's true. We looked it up. It's not good.

但Anabay改变了这一点。它是可水洗的，完全可水洗。拆下套子扔进洗衣机，砰，干净如新。

But Anabay changes that. It's washable, like fully washable. Take the covers off, throw them in the machine, boom, clean.

而且价格实在亲民，这在同类产品中相当难得。

Also, it's actually affordable, which is surprisingly rare.

所以啊，如果你每天都要坐在某个东西上，或许不该让它变成生物危害品。关键来了——这不仅实用，还价格亲民。起价仅699美元，就能让你的沙发既干净又舒适。现在购买Anabay沙发，甚至可享高达60%的折扣。

So yeah, if you're gonna sit on something every day, maybe don't make it a biohazard. And here's the kicker. It's not just practical, it's affordable. Starting at just $699, you can make your sofa as clean as it is comfy. Right now, you can even get up to 60% off your Anabay sofa.

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Because let's be real, you deserve better than a germ factory for a place to rest your head. Check out washablesofas.com now and give your couch the upgrade it's begging for. That's washablesofas.com.

各位注意了。领英已发展成为拥有超过10亿专业人士和1.3亿决策者的网络，这正是它区别于其他广告投放平台的优势所在。

Hey, everybody. Get this. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1,000,000,000 professionals and a 130,000,000 decision makers, and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys.

没错。你可以根据职位、行业、公司、角色、资历、技能甚至公司营收来精准定位目标客户，从此告别在错误受众身上浪费预算。

Yeah. For sure. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, even company revenue so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience.

对。这就是为什么领英广告在所有在线广告网络中能带来最高的B2B投资回报率。真的，没有之一。

Yep. That's why LinkedIn ads generates the highest b to b row as of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them.

还有福利：如果你在领英广告的首个活动投入250美元，下次就能获得250美元免费信用额度。只需访问linkedin.com/sysk。条款与条件适用。

And get this. If you spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads, you get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com/sysk. That's linkedin.com/sysk. Terms and conditions apply.

好的，快速分享下。我在国际反人口贩卖网站看到篇很棒的文章，其中谈到这对移民身份的影响——正如我之前提到的，祖格指出真正高危的是无证移民，因为他们无处申诉。但即便你以邮购新娘身份入境，基本流程是这样的：1986年颁布的《移民婚姻欺诈修正案》规定，丈夫需为配偶或未婚妻申请签证，

All right. Really quickly, the great article I found from the Anti Trafficking International site, they did talk a little bit about what it means for your immigration status, and how because I mentioned earlier that Zug said, you know, who's really at risk are undocumented immigrants, because they have no recourse. But even if you do come over as a mail order bride, and here's basically what happens. The immigration marriage fraud amendment, which was enacted in '86, is basically the husband will apply for a spouse or a fiance visa,

而且

and

然后新娘必须在抵达美国后的三个月内与丈夫结婚，所以有三个月的试用期。但新娘只有两年的有条件居民身份。在这两年期间，最后他们必须共同申请她的永久居民身份，在这有条件的两年期间，就是危险地带，新娘基本上完全依赖丈夫。他掌握所有主动权。她们此时非常脆弱。

then the bride marries has to marry the husband within three months upon arrival in The US, so there's a three month of try it out period. But the bride only has conditional resident status for two years. So in that two year period, at the end of which they have to apply jointly for her permanent status as a resident, in that conditional two year period, that is the dodgy territory, where they're basically like, the bride is completely dependent on the husband. He holds all the cards. They're very vulnerable at this point.

她们可能面临语言隔离，或文化隔离。她们可能没有我们之前提到的社交网络，或者在经济上完全依赖丈夫。她们可能会害怕丈夫在这两年内说‘你知道吗？我还可以把你送回家。’

They may have linguistic isolation, or and or cultural isolation. They may not have that social network that we were talking about, or be completely economically dependent on the husband. And they might be afraid that he'll be like, you know what? It's in that two year frame. I can still have you sent home.

所以你最好表现好点。这基本上就是他们说这是一种较温和的人口贩卖形式。尽管确实存在与此相关的真实贩卖，我们不是在讨论那个。我们讨论的是自愿过来的女性。

So you better be nice. And this is basically where they're saying this is just sort of a softer version of trafficking. Right. Even though and there is real trafficking attached to this, we're not talking about that. We're talking about women who do come over voluntarily.

对。但他们仍然认为这是一种较温和的形式。

Right. But they still see that as a sort of a softer version of that.

所以那种权力动态，以及你提到的男性掌握所有信息而邮购新娘对男性几乎一无所知的情况，这在过去几年已经改变了。多亏了互联网，以及视频聊天、短信、Facebook和Skype等工具。现在女性能够通过这些简单的互联网工具，在选择男性时更加挑剔和谨慎。不再是‘我要把自己放进目录然后祈祷’那样了。

So and that power dynamic, and the one where you mentioned where the the men were supplied with all the information, where the mail order brides had basically none about the men, That that's changed in the last few years. Thanks to the Internet. And thanks to things like video chat and texting and Facebook and Skype. And now women are able just through the simple tools of the Internet to to be much more discerning and discriminating in the the men they choose. It's not just like, I'm gonna put myself in a catalog and cross my fingers.

她们更加主动地展示自己，至少那些属于合法邮购婚姻经纪机构的女性是这样。对吧？

They're they're they're putting themselves out there much more, at least ones that are are members of legitimate mail order marriage brokerages. Right?

是的。而且令人痛心的是，期间还发生了几起备受瞩目的谋杀案

Yeah. And there was there were very sadly a couple of high profile murders

是啊。

Yeah.

这些事件直接推动了2005年2月《国际婚姻经纪人管理条例》的出台。法规真正改变了权力失衡的局面——合法婚介机构现在必须向女性提供大量男方信息，包括是否在州或国家性犯罪者登记名单上、财务状况背景等。她们会获得关于家庭暴力的资料，了解其表现形式、如何报警等应对措施，以及相关法律权利。是的，还包括逮捕记录、婚姻史、居住史、是否有子女等信息。

Leading up to the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act in 02/2005. And this is where things really kind of changed as far as at least trying to help adjust that power dynamic, in that if you are a legitimate brokerage agency, you're required to provide these women with a lot of information now about the men, whether or not they're on state or national sex offender registries, background on their financials. They're given information on domestic violence, what that looks like, and how to go to the police and stuff like that, and that you can do stuff like that. Yeah. Arrest history history, marital history, residence history, if they have kids.

这点很重要。如今婚介机构必须向女性披露男方所有这些信息。

That's a big one. All kinds of stuff now that these agencies have to provide about the men for the women.

没错。但有些人会说：'嘿，这不公平吧？如果是美国女性约会美国男性，根本拿不到这些信息。这侵犯隐私了。'

Yeah. And so people who are like, hey, that's not that's not cool, man. If you were an American woman just dating an American man, you wouldn't have access to that kind of information. Right. That's really invasive.

确实如此。但这基本是偷换概念——美国女性不会陷入邮购新娘那种孤立无援、完全依附的处境。邮购新娘需要的保护措施远超过普通美国女性。所以这种论点根本站不住脚。

It is true. It's also almost basically a straw man argument because an American woman is not going to be in the kind of isolated completely dependent situation that a mail order bride's going to be in. And so the mail order bride needs a lot more safeguards than it just the average American woman's going to need. So nice try, but that argument doesn't hold water at all.

我同意。你开头提到数据统计的缺失，实际上他们连这类婚姻的发生频率都不清楚，更不用说成功率、以虐待收场的比例等情况。目前只有零星数据。

Yeah. I agree. You talked earlier at the beginning about a lack of data and statistics. They don't even really know how often this is happening, much less how many are successful, and how many times they end poorly, or in abuse, and things like that. There are a few numbers out there.

我想知道那个词怎么发音来着？

I think the how do you pronounce that?

我猜是读作塔希尔·塔希里（Tahir Tahiri）吧。

I wanna say Tahir Tahiri.

塔希里正义中心估计每年有1.1万至1.6万名女性通过婚姻中介移民。而移民局的数据更像是4千到6千人。所以实际上很难判断这种现象的真实规模。就像你说的，如果我们这些外行没有数据支撑，就很难形成明确观点。

Tahiri Justice Center. They estimate between eleven thousand and sixteen thousand women immigrate each year through a marriage broker. The INS has it more like four to 6,000. So you kinda can't really tell how much this is even going on. So it's really hard to, you know, like you said, if you don't have the data for for noobs like us, it's kinda hard to form a hard opinion.

没错。但不仅是咱们外行没数据，根本没人掌握确切数据。这种情况下只能个案处理。如果只有坊间传闻，总不能直接断言邮购婚姻行业就是人口贩卖和性交易的幌子。

Right. But it's not just noobs like us who don't have the data, like no one has the data. So it's like, you know, no one can form a hard opinion. And you if in that case, you have to treat it on like a case by case basis. And like, if you if you have nothing but anecdotal data or evidence, you can't just say like, yes, the mail order marriage industry is just a front for human trafficking and sex trafficking.

这种说法根本是道德恐慌。我们必须先获取数据。但与此同时，也不妨碍为可能受害的女性提供支持——万一传言属实呢？

That's that is a moral panic that you've just started right there. So we have to go out and get the data. But at the same time, that doesn't mean you can't simultaneously offer support to Right. Women who might be suffering from that. Like, what if it turns out to be true?

如果最终证实这整个就是人口贩卖的幌子，这些女性确实需要帮助，那就该铺开红地毯，大力宣传援助服务，在开展研究获取数据的同时，看看是否有人主动求助。反正没坏处，无非是资金投入——要我说这钱花得值。

Like, yeah, it's all just a big front for human trafficking and these women need help. Roll out the red carpet, like get those services broadcast, like figure out how to get them help if they need it, and see if anybody comes out of the woodwork in the meantime while you're conducting those studies to come up with that data one way or another. Can't hurt. Just It's money. And that's a pretty good thing to spend money on, if you ask me.

我同意。有研究显示配偶虐待率高出约三倍，但这仅针对嫁给美国丈夫的移民女性。我认为这个数据包含所有移民女性，不限于邮购婚姻的情况。

Yeah, I agree. There are some studies that show spousal abuse rates are about three times higher, but this is just for immigrant women married to US husbands. I don't think I think that includes all immigrant women. Don't think it's just mail order situations.

没错。

That's right.

所以这些数据其实并无实质帮助。但我认为它确实整体上揭示了这种权力关系。

So that's data that doesn't exactly help. But it does shine a light on that power dynamic as a whole, I think.

对。而且我记得戴夫提到2010至2020年间美国有三名跨国邮购新娘被谋杀。如果采用塔希里司法中心公布的年度入境人数上限值16万计算，谋杀率约为0.0018%。而全美6400万已婚女性中，同期平均有17250人遭伴侣杀害，占比2.6%。

Yeah. And I couldn't I couldn't tell the Dave mentioned that there were three murdered women, male male order brides in The United States, I think between 2010 and 2020 maybe. And if using the high the high number that the Tahiri Justice Center uses for how many came over every year, you get a 160,000 of them. So three murders out of a 160,000 population is I think point 18%. But out of all the women, all the married women in America, it's like sixty four million married women, seventeen thousand two hundred and fifty on average died but were murdered by their partner in that same time which is two point six percent.

可能我计算有误，但若数据准确，这意味着邮购新娘被丈夫谋杀的几率反而低于普通美国已婚女性。

So I probably got the math wrong, but if it is right, then that means you're actually less likely to be murdered by your husband as a mail order bride than you are just as an American woman who was married and just part of the general population.

这倒是好消息。

So that's great.

确实。

Right.

想想看，这种统计结果实在让人高兴不起来。

Think That's one of the stats you can't feel good about.

不，完全正确。这是个非常好的观点，确实如此，查克。我是说，我想我当时

No. Exactly. That's a great that is an excellent point for sure, Chuck. I mean, I think I had

不过你确实清楚自己要往哪儿走。

know where you're going for sure though.

这揭示了我们需要从根本上杜绝配偶谋杀。我想我们都能支持这一点，对吧？

Shines a light that we need to basically do away with spousal murder. I think we can all get behind that. Right?

是啊。但它再次起到的作用是让你思考，或许我们应该专注于真正的问题。

Yeah. What it what it does though, again, is it makes you think maybe let's concentrate on the real problems.

没错。

Right.

而且如果邮购新娘现象并非真正的问题——我们都知道这一点——但我们国家确实存在严重的家庭暴力问题。

And and if that's not if if the mail order bride situation isn't the real problem, then we just and we all know this, but we we have a real domestic violence problem in this country anyway.

对，这是同样的问题。我们上次讨论的是什么来着？哦，陌生人的危险。当时好像是说，哦，不。

Yeah. It's the same thing. What was the last one we talked about? Oh, the stranger danger. Where it was like, oh, no.

事实上，你的表亲对你实施性侵和谋杀的频率远高于陌生人。但我们却只关注陌生人，对吧？你的配偶也可能杀害你，但我们对此视而不见，反而聚焦于邮购新娘被害案。即便后者发生的概率低得多。

Actually, your cousin is going to, like, rape and murder you way more frequently than just some strangers. But let's all concentrate on the stranger. Right. Your your spouse is possibly going to murder you, but let's ignore that and concentrate on mail order brides being murdered instead Right. Even if it's just a a much less of a chance.

确实如此。

Like Yeah.

这就是道德恐慌的定义，你必须厘清这些现象，因为它们会模糊真正重要的问题。

That's the that's the definition of a moral panic, and you gotta sort those out because they obfuscate important things.

没错。节目开头你提到LGBTQ群体权益——这就是现在我们称之为'邮购婚姻'的原因。2013年最高法院推翻《婚姻保护法》部分条款后，LGBTQ群体通过这种方式结合的数量激增。很多时候，这些来自其他国家的人是在逃命，因为他们在本国作为性少数群体毫无权利。所以当你审视这种情况时，会发现他们可能真是在通过跨国婚姻拯救他人的生命。

Yeah. And you know, at the beginning of the episode, you mentioned LGBTQ rights. That's why we call it male order marriages now, because in 2013, with the Supreme Court striking down parts of the Defense of Marriage Act, it allowed and there has been a, know, since then, sort of a big time rise in LGBTQ people doing the exact same thing. And a lot of times, these people in other countries are literally fleeing for their life because they have no rights in their own country as a person from that community. So that's one of those where you look at, and you're like, they could literally be saving someone's life by getting them out of their country over here.

正是如此。

Yep. That's right.

男性也会这样做。我好奇是否存在男性邮购丈夫的现象——近年爱尔兰确实出现了这种情况，有些爱尔兰男性...

And men do it too. Saw there was a I was curious about male or husbands, and if that was even a thing. And apparently, Ireland, in recent years, has got some of this going on, where these Irishmen

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们主动站出来表示，嘿，我是个健壮的爱尔兰小伙子

Are putting themselves out there and saying, hey, I'm a strapping young Irishman

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我很乐意来娶你并住在你的国家。

And I'm happy to come marry you and live in your country.

非常不错。

Very nice.

这在爱尔兰是常态。没想到

That's a thing in Ireland. Did not

还有这种事。我也完全不知道。但也就爱尔兰会尝试新花样。真为你高兴，爱尔兰。

know that. I had no idea either. But leave it to Ireland to just try something new. So good for you, Ireland.

为你高兴。

Good for you.

关于邮购婚姻你还有其他资料吗？

You got anything else on mail order marriages?

我没有其他资料了。现在可以脱下我的溜冰鞋了。这次真是步步惊心。

I got nothing else. I can take off my roller skates now. This one was it was it was danger at every turn.

我觉得你表现很棒。我们做得很好。真的不错。我相当确定...天啊。

I thought you did great. I thought we did great. It's good. I'm I'm pretty sure. Oh, god.

希望如此。如果你想了解更多关于邮购婚姻的事，自己去查查看吧，别只听我们说。既然我说了别只听我们的，现在该进入听众来信环节了。

I hope so. Well, if you want to know more about mail order marriages, go check it out and see what you think for yourself. Don't take our words for it. And since I said don't take our words for it, it's time for listener mail.

听众来信...这是件令人悲伤的事。先做个心理预警，特别是如果你有家人因新冠去世。我和这位先生有过多次交流，他强烈希望能通过广播读出这封信，以呼吁人们接种疫苗。嘿伙计们，好久没写信了。

Listener mail, this this is a a sad case. So a bit of a trigger warning here, especially if you lost a family member to COVID. But I've had a back and forth with this gentleman, and he he really felt strongly about reading this on the air in the name of getting people vaccinated. Hey, guys. Haven't written in quite some time.

从2008年2月就开始收听你们的节目。你们见证了我人生中许多重要时刻，尽管我们素未谋面——虽然我在凤凰城现场秀问过你们史上最佳问题。我父亲教我弹吉他，受他影响我弹了近三十年。在我们家从来不存在选择吉布森还是芬德的问题。

Been listening since 02/2008. You've been around for so many personal milestones even though we've never met, even though I did ask you the best question ever at your live show in Phoenix. My father taught me how to play guitar. I've been playing for nearly thirty years because of his influence. There's never been a question of Gibson or Fender in my family.

我们家向来是芬德派。他弹斯特拉特，我弹泰勒。上周二，我与我父亲永别了。新冠病毒肆虐了他的身体。当天晚些时候他去世后，我走进卡车里缓了几分钟，决定听听乔什和查克的节目转移注意力，结果听到的内容让我彻底震惊了。

It's always been clear we're a Fender family. He played a Strat, and I played a Tele. The last this last Tuesday, I said goodbye to my father. COVID had done its job and completely overtaken his body. After he passed later that day, I went into my truck and took a few minutes, and decided I needed some Josh and Chuck to get my mind off of things, and I was absolutely shocked.

那天，我的动态里出现了利奥·芬达和莱斯·保罗的消息。真好。我和父亲之间最深厚的纽带莫过于对音乐和弹吉他的热爱，对芬达的偏爱，以及对所有吉布森产品的不感冒。抱歉了，查克。在我生命中最艰难的日子里，再没有比这更完美的慰藉了。

On that day, Leo Fender and Les Paul came through in my feed. Nice. My father and I did not have anything we bonded over more than our love of music and playing guitar, an affinity for Fender, and a dislike of all things Gibson. Sorry, Chuck. There could not have been more perfect topic to help me through one of the hardest days of my life.

我期待着有一天，在好好洗手消毒后能握握你们的手，感谢你们陪伴我度过那么多美好与糟糕的日子。他还附上了一首为父亲创作的歌。很棒。这是艾迪的留言。艾迪说，请务必在节目里念出来。

I look forward to someday when I might be able to shake your hands after a good hand washing and sanitization, and just thank you for being with me through so many good days and so many bad days. And he included a song that he gave his father that he wrote for him. It's great. And this is from Eddie. And Eddie said, please read this on the air.

他说，我母亲因此决定去接种疫苗，而他们原本没接种。他还说，请务必向人们传达这个信息：这事可能发生在你和家人身上，赶紧去把疫苗打了吧。

He said, my mother decided to get vaccinated because of this and they were not vaccinated. And he said, just please send the message out to people that it can happen to you and your family and just go out there and get that vaccination already.

谢谢分享，艾迪。对你父亲的离世我们深表哀悼，听到这个消息我很难过。但很高兴能在这样痛苦的时刻给你带来些许安慰。谢谢你让我们知道这件事。

Thanks for that, Eddie. And definitely our condolences on your father's passing. I'm really sorry to hear that. But I'm glad we could bring you a little measure of comfort at a terrible time. So thank you for letting us know about that.

同时也感谢你呼吁大家接种疫苗，这是发挥公众影响力的好方式。就像艾迪说的，快去打疫苗吧。没错，我们正式表态了：快去接种。

And also, thank you for telling everybody to get vaccinated because that's a pretty good thing to use your position for. So I think, like Eddie said, go get vaccinated. Yeah. We said it. Go get vaccinated.

懂？懂。

K? K.

同意。

Agreed.

在此期间，如果您想联系我们，可以发送电子邮件至stuffpodcast@iHeartRadio.com。

And in the meantime, if you wanna get in touch with us, you can send us an email to stuffpodcast@iHeartRadio.com.

《你应该知道的事》是iHeartRadio制作的节目。想收听更多iHeartRadio播客，请访问iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或您收听喜爱节目的任何平台。

Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts to myHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

患有罕见自身免疫性疾病的生活充满挑战，但也展现出非凡的坚韧，尤其是对于重症肌无力（MG）和慢性炎症性脱髓鞘性多发性神经病（CIDP）患者而言。在社群中找到力量至关重要。《未被讲述的故事：与严重自身免疫病共存的生活》由Ruby工作室与Argenx合作出品，探索人们在意想不到之处发现力量的历程。请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何播客平台收听。

Living with a rare autoimmune condition comes with challenges, but also incredible strength, especially for those living with conditions like myasthenia gravis, or MG, and chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, otherwise known as CIDP. Finding empowerment in the community is critical. Untold stories, life with a severe autoimmune condition, a Ruby studio production, in partnership with Argenx, explores people discovering strength in the most unexpected places. Listen to untold stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees.

问问Capital One的银行小哥就知道了——他总爱聊这个（当然是好事）。他还会告诉你这也是他最喜欢的播客。谢啦，Capital One银行小哥。你的钱包里有什么？

Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet?

条款适用。详情请见capital1.com/bank。Capital One NA，FDIC成员。

Terms apply. See capital1.com/bank. Capital One NA, member FDIC.

人们曾称他们为杀人犯。十年后，他们被奉若神明。如今，无人记得他们的名字。

People called them murderers. Ten years later, they were gods. Today, no one knows their names.

一群特立独行的外科医生挑战医疗体系，不惜一切代价开创了心脏直视手术。欢迎来到美国医疗的狂野西部。我是克里斯·派恩，

A group of maverick surgeons who took on the medical establishment who risked everything to invent open heart surgery. Welcome to the Wild West of American medicine. I'm Chris Pine,

这里是《心脏牛仔》。如果你喜欢医疗剧，如果你喜欢心跳加速的惊悚片，你一定会爱上《心脏牛仔》。请在iHeartRadio应用或任何你收听播客的地方收听。

and this is Cardiac Cowboys. If you like medical dramas, if you like heart pounding thrillers, you will love cardiac cowboys. Listen on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen to podcasts.

由Jasper AI赞助，专为营销人员打造的人工智能。

Sponsored by Jasper AI, AI built for marketers.

这是一档iHeart播客节目。

This is an iHeart podcast.