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这是一档iHeart播客节目。
This is an iHeart podcast.
嘿。
Hey.
我是杰·谢蒂，《人生意义》播客的主持人。
I'm Jay Shetty, and I'm the host of the On Purpose Podcast.
最近，我有幸与传奇人物克里斯·詹娜进行了对话。
Recently, I had the honor of sitting down with the iconic Kris Jenner.
即使你的某个孩子在与伴侣或前任伴侣经历非常困难的时期，你依然会把他们视为家庭整体的一部分去爱。
Even if one of your children has been through something really difficult with their partner or an ex partner, you still love them as part of the unit and the family.
他们是我孙辈的父亲，这份爱不会因为与他们共度的艰难时刻而消失。
These are the fathers of my grandchildren, and that love doesn't go away when we experience really challenging times with them.
请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的平台收听杰·谢蒂主持的《人生意义》。
Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
在《健康那些事儿》播客中，我们将解答所有让你夜不能寐的健康问题。
On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night.
我是医生
I'm Doctor.
普里扬卡·沃利，拥有双重委员会认证的医师。
Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician.
我是哈里·昆达波鲁，喜剧演员，也是曾在凌晨三点搜索‘我是不是得了坏血病’的人。
And I'm Hari Kundabolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, do I have scurvy at 3AM?
我们的节目以独特视角探讨健康话题，比如有一期我们专门讨论了糖尿病。
And on our show, we're talking about health in a different way, like our episode where we look at diabetes.
在美国，我的意思是，相当比例的美国人处于糖尿病前期。
In The United States, I mean, percent of Americans are prediabetic.
二型糖尿病有多大的可预防性？
How preventable is type two?
非常高。
Extremely.
收听健康类节目
Listen to health stuff on
请通过iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或你获取播客的任何平台收听。
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
她说，约翰尼，孩子们昨晚没回家。
And she said, Johnny, the kids didn't come home last night.
在德克萨斯州中部平原，青少年正在死去——那些毫无道理的自杀、离奇的事故和残忍的谋杀。
Along the Central Texas Plains, teens are dying, suicides that don't make sense, strange accidents, and brutal murders.
这情节简直像是直接从《绝命毒师》里撕下来的。
In what seems to be a plot ripped straight out of Breaking Bad.
毒品、酒精、人口贩卖。
Drugs, alcohol, trafficking of people.
有些人绝对知道发生了什么。
There are people out there that absolutely know what happened.
请收听《纸鬼：德州青少年谋杀案》，可通过iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或你获取播客的任何平台收听。
Listen to Paper Ghosts, the Texas Teen Murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
大家好。
Hey, everybody.
是我，乔希。
It's me, Josh.
本周的精选节目，我选择了2017年8月那期关于人格测试的节目。
And for this week's Select, I've chosen our August 2017 episode on personality tests.
事实证明，绝大多数人格测试——也许全部——在科学上都有至少某种程度的缺陷，有些甚至完全是编造的。
It turns out that the vast majority of them, maybe all of them, are scientifically faulty to at least some degree, and some of them are just outright made up.
如果这些测试被用来诊断精神疾病、决定雇佣或解雇、甚至将你送进监狱（这种情况确实存在），就会造成严重问题。
This can be a real problem if they're being used to diagnose you with a mental illness or hire or fire you or put you in jail, and that actually happens.
所以请深入探究这期看似平淡实则精彩的节目吧，希望你喜欢。
So dig into this deceptively interesting episode and enjoy it.
顺便说一句，我是ENFP性格类型。
And I'm an ENFP, by the way.
欢迎收听《你应该知道的事》，iHeartRadio出品。
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
嘿，欢迎收听本期播客。
Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
我是乔希·克拉克。
I'm Josh Clark.
这位是查尔斯·'查克'·布莱恩特。
There's Charles w Chuck Bryant.
那边是杰瑞，这里是《你应该知道的事》节目。
There's Jerry over there, and this is stuff you should know.
没错。
Yeah.
只是几个I t j s's。
Just a couple of I t j s's.
我不记得自己是什么了。
I don't remember what I am.
我们以前做过。
We've taken it before.
《How Stuff Works》节目多年前做过这个。
How Stuff Works hosted it years back.
你还记得吗？
Do you remember?
记得。
Yeah.
就像很多公司那样——你待会儿会看到——我们在探索频道庇护期间，他们花钱请人来办公室给我们做迈尔斯-布里格斯性格测试。
We had, like many companies do, as you'll see, we had when we were under Discovery's tender wing, they they paid for someone to come to our office and and administer the Myers Briggs personality test.
用枪指着脑袋做的。
At gunpoint.
是啊。
Yeah.
我我不记得了，但我很确定我是ENFP型。
I I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure I was an ENFP.
我我不记得自己是什么类型了。
I I don't remember what I was.
我我可能会在测试过程中给出三种不同的答案。
I'll I'll probably say, like, three different things as we go through this one.
比如，再看一遍，我非常确定自己是ENFP性格。
Like, just looking at it again, I'm pretty sure I was an ENFP.
好的。
Okay.
P代表双鱼座。
P stands for Pisces.
对。
Right.
或者是大便人。
Or pooper.
嗯。
Yeah.
我们来看看。
Let's see.
外向型，直觉型。
Extroverted, intuitive.
行。
K.
f代表什么？
What does the f stand for?
感性大便人。
Feeling pooper.
这是个剧透。
This is a spoiler.
是啊。
Yeah.
感觉糟透了。
Feeling pooper.
所以我们正在谈论的，听起来就像是在说一串字母。
So we're what we're talking about, we're it sounds like we're saying strings of letters.
如果你熟悉查克刚才提到的迈尔斯-布里格斯性格分类指标（MBTI），这些字母确实有意义。在美国企业界，只要工作超过三年，很可能你都已经做过这个性格测试。
They actually do make sense if you're familiar with what Chuck just said, the Myers Briggs type inventory, which if you are in corporate America and have been a part of corporate America for more than probably three years, there's probably a pretty good likelihood that you've taken the Myers Briggs type inventory.
为了
For
确实。
sure.
它真的非常普及。
Like, it's really widespread.
对啊。
Yeah.
人们超爱这个。
People love it.
我看到数据说美国有13%的公司都在用这个测试。
I saw something like 13% of companies in America use it.
这比例很高了。
That's a lot.
嗯。
Yeah.
《财富》100强中有89家在使用它吗？
And was it 89 of the Fortune 100 use it?
没错。
Right.
然后我又看到了另一项统计数据。
And then I saw another stat.
不过那是2001年的数据，所以我不确定现在是否还适用。
It was from 2001, though, so I'm not sure how current it is.
嗯，已经16年前的数据了。
Well, 16 years old.
对。
Right.
但他们提到，我记得英国公司大约有10%到40%在使用它们。
But they said that the the I think British companies somewhere between 1040% of British companies use them.
好吧。
Alright.
所以，我的意思是，谁知道呢？
So, I mean, it's who knows?
听起来完全是在瞎猜。
It's pretty wild guess, it sounds like.
但我好奇他们是否有自己的系统。
But I wonder if they have their own.
没有。
It's no.
同一个吗？
Same one?
迈尔斯-布里格斯测试，他们不称之为测试，我们稍后会明白。
The Myers Briggs test, they don't call it a test as we'll see.
当然。
Sure.
但这个测试确实全球通用。
But the the test is is it's worldwide.
它被翻译成多种不同语言。
It's translated into tons of different languages.
他们不。
They no.
这就是迈尔斯-布里格斯测试。
It's it's the Myers Briggs test.
而且市面上有大量山寨版本。
And there's tons of knockoffs.
哦，当然。
Oh, sure.
总体而言存在大量人格测试，迈尔斯-布里格斯测试属于这个更大的范畴，但它可能是有史以来最著名的，至少在流行文化层面是这样。
There's tons of personality tests in general, which really is the larger umbrella the Myers Briggs test falls under, but it's probably the most famous of all time, at least as far as pop culture goes.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们将涵盖从罗夏墨迹到迈尔斯-布里格斯的所有内容。
And we're gonna hit on everything from Rorschach to the Myers Briggs.
当然。
Sure.
但我们会重点讨论它们。
But We're gonna hit on them.
但MBTI无疑是本次重点，因为它无处不在。
But the MBTI definitely is more the focus of this one because of its ubiquity.
没错。
Right.
而且因为大多数人都知道它，还因为在美国，拿迈尔斯-布里格斯类型指标开涮是被忽视的消遣方式之一。
And because most people know it, and because it's one of the overlooked pastimes in The United States to take potshots at the Myers Briggs type inventory.
是啊。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
很有趣。
It's fun.
那么
So
将人格分类并非新鲜事，这些测试出于各种原因试图做到这点——我们稍后会讨论。
categorizing one's personality is nothing new, and that's what these tests aim to do for various reasons, which we'll go over later.
回到正题，这是篇Grabster的文章。
But going back and this was a Grabster article.
对吧？
Correct?
没错。
That's right.
所以你知道这很棒。
So you know it's good.
是啊。
Yeah.
Grabster刚参加了我们在多伦多的演出。
And Grabster was just at our show in Toronto Yeah.
他确实去了。
He was.
这是第二次了。
For the second time.
他站起来，做了那个胜利的抖肩动作。
He stood up and, like, did that victory shake.
哦，他真那么做了？
Oh, did he do that?
不，他没有。
No, he didn't.
哦。
Oh.
我可是那个动作的忠实粉丝。
I'm a big fan of that.
那可是老派风格。
That's old school.
哦，是的。
Oh, it is.
这是个不错的选择。
It's a good way to go.
看起来你应该穿着那条海豚短裤，刚冲过终点线，正在做那个动作。
It looks like you should be wearing those dolphin shorts and just having crossed the finish line and you're doing that.
所以，是的，尝试对性格进行分类并不是什么新鲜事。
So, yeah, it's nothing new trying to categorize personalities.
早在很久以前，我记得在我们那期盗墓直播节目中，我们讨论过四种体液学说。
Way back in the day, I know on our grave robbing, live grave robbing episode, we talked about the four humors.
对。
Right.
而且我们之前也讨论过，在医学科学还未真正成型之前。
And we've talked about them before before medical science was kind of a real thing.
那是个早期的尝试。
It was an early attempt.
是啊。
Yeah.
他们谈论了四种体液——黑胆汁、黄胆汁、黏液和血液，这些体液失衡会导致疾病。
They talked about the four fluids or the four humors, black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood, and an imbalance in those will cause disease.
但它们同时也是——这点我之前不知道。
But they were also and this is something I didn't know.
这些体液还与相应的性格类型相关联。
These are also linked to corresponding personality types too.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，英语中的‘melancholy’这个词，我认为是源自希腊语的词汇，意思是
So, like, the word melancholy in English, it's an adaptation of the Greek words, I believe, for
黑胆汁。
black bile.
就是这样。
There it is.
而忧郁型人格被认为与黑胆汁过剩有关，基本上你就是忧郁的。
And and melancholy personalities were associated with an overabundance of black bile, and, basically, you're melancholy.
你是个抑郁的人，或者非常内向沉默。
You're you're a depressed person or you're very reserved or quiet.
几千年来，人们都认为，这家伙黑胆汁太多了。
And for thousands of years, people thought, guy's got a lot of black bile.
没错。
Yeah.
这就是他性格的成因。
That explains his personality.
其他几种也很有意思，比如粘液质。
The other ones are pretty pretty interesting too, like phlegmatic.
粘液质？
Phlegmatic?
我见过粘液质的人。
I've seen phlegmatic.
我听说过'痰'这个词。
I've heard phlegmatic.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
我也见过。
I've seen it too.
所以，比如说当
So, like, when
你咳出东西时，你会叫它痰吗？
you cough something up, do you call it phlegm?
有时候。
Sometimes.
那是痰吗？
It's phlegm?
看情况。
It depends.
如果里面有很多块状物，那就是痰。
If it had like a lot of extra chunks in it, it's phlegm.
哦天哪。
Oh gosh.
但'痰'这个词，我会说'痰'。
But phlegmatic, I say phlegmatic.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
这很随性。
That's very laid back.
你知道吗？
Did you know that?
嗯，是的。
Well, yeah.
因为我查过所有这些。
Because I looked all these up.
哦，好的。
Oh, okay.
因为乐观是我最喜欢的词之一。
Because sanguine is one of my favorite words.
是的。
Yeah.
顺便说下，这是希波克拉底的理论。
And that's this is Hippocrates, by the way.
他进一步提炼了这些气质的概念。
He he kinda further refined these concepts of the temperament.
所以忧郁质、粘液质、多血质，还有...
So melancholic, phlegmatic, sanguine, and what is it?
胆汁质。
Choleric.
对。
Yeah.
胆汁质。
Choleric.
胆汁质。
Choleric.
胆汁质就像易怒、急躁、简短和生硬。
Choleric is like irritable and short and terse and curt.
是啊。
Yeah.
但问题是，这里有些奇怪的地方。
But the thing is, there's something weird here.
对吧？
Right?
如果你是一个有思考能力的人类，是的。
If you are a thinking human being Yes.
而且不是处于植物人状态的人
Who is not in a vegetative state right now
正确。
Correct.
就目前医学所知，也许即使你处于植物人状态，你可能也在思考，似乎我从未遇到过纯粹黏液质、纯粹胆汁质或纯粹多血质的人。
And for all we know at this point in medical science, maybe even if you are in a vegetative state, you're probably thinking, it doesn't seem like anyone I've ever met is just phlegmatic or just choleric or just sanguine Yeah.
或纯粹忧郁质。
Or just melancholy.
有时候我会完全支持这些特质。
Sometimes I'm all for those things.
有时一天之内我会经历所有这四种状态，具体取决于当天有多奇怪。
Sometimes I go through those things all four in a day depending on how weird the day is.
有时我会经历全部四种
Sometimes I go through all four of
就在一小时的欢乐时光里。
those within the course of one happy hour.
当然。
Sure.
好的。
Okay.
没错。
Right.
而这正是问题的关键所在，也是从此刻起对这期播客的任何批评基础——从四体液学说开始，一直延续至今以人格测试形式存在的整个体系
And and that's kind of the point here, and it's also the basis of any criticism from the this moment in the podcast here on out, is that this whole thing that started back with the four humors and continues on to this day in the guise of personality tests
是啊。
Yeah.
本质上是试图将复杂的人类个性简化为'你就是这类'。
Is an attempt to take a human personality and say, you're this.
对。
Yeah.
你就属于这一种类型。
You're this one type.
你是这种类型。
You're this type.
这就是你的类型。
This is your type.
这就是你的样子。
This is what you're like.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
而人类性格实在太复杂、太模糊、太像果冻一样难以捉摸，无法被简单地框定为某一种类型。
And the human personality is just too complex, too squishy, too jelly like to be boxed into one thing like that.
没错。
Yeah.
我们稍后会讨论所有批评意见，但这确实是最主要的批评——好吧，我们暂且保留这个话题。
And we'll get into all the criticisms, but that definitely is the leading criticism that is well, we'll we'll save that.
好的。
Okay.
刚才是在吊胃口。
That was a tease.
这个胃口吊得不错。
It was a good tease.
是个冷静的吊胃口方式。
It was a phlegmatic one.
不过我们现在讨论的这些分类法——或者说其中大部分——至少都可以追溯到一个人，卡尔·荣格。
All these classifications, though, that we talk about now are or most of them, at least, are derived laid at the feet of one man, one Carl Jung Yeah.
谁写了一本叫《心理类型》的书。
Who wrote a book called Psychological Types.
不过用德语怎么说？
How do you say it though in in German?
我不知道。
I don't know.
哦，它在哪儿？
It's oh, where is it?
让我看看。
Let me see.
哦，在那儿呢。
Oh, there it is.
我...我连开始都做不到。
I I can't even begin to do it.
心理...心理...抱歉。
Psycho psycho sorry.
心理...学类型的。
Psychologique ish.
心理学类型的分类。
Psychologique ish typing.
还不错。
That's not bad.
它好小啊。
It's so tiny.
这就是问题所在，因为你
That was the problem, because you
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
我选10。
I do 10.
我不喜欢浪费纸张。
I don't like to waste paper.
嗯，你了解我的。
Well, you know me.
我是...我是...
I'm I'm
你选了16号新罗马字体？
You do, 16 times New Roman?
我热爱纸张，不想浪费它，但我还得完成工作。
I love paper, and I don't wanna waste it, but I also have to do my job.
当然。
Sure.
或许我该双面打印，但那样荧光笔标记就不方便了。
Maybe I should go double sided, but then my highlighter gets in the way.
哦，确实。
Oh, yeah.
那会是个问题。
It'd be a problem.
哦，老兄。
Oh, man.
所有内容都会被高亮显示。
Everything would be highlighted.
你不如直接把整页纸浸在黄色墨水里的了。
You might as well just dip the page in yellow ink or something.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
总之，荣格在1921年用德语写了这本书，几年后将其翻译成英文。
So anyway, Jung wrote this book, that book, in 1921 in German, and had it translated to English a couple years later.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他创建了这四种分类：感觉、直觉、思考和情感。
And he created these four categories, sensation, intuition, thinking, and feeling.
对。
Right.
所以现代大多数测试都以某种方式基于他提出的这四种类型。
So those were his four that kind of most of these modern tests are based on in some way or another.
是的。
Yeah.
而且几乎不可能...我想我们可以把所有的批评留到最后集中说，但在讨论这些内容时很难不...就像你每提出一个事实时那样。嗯。
And it's really almost impossible that I guess we could just save all the criticisms for the end and just pile them on, but it's it's really tough to talk about this stuff and not, like, as you present one fact Mhmm.
谈谈这个事实在现代版本中的问题。
Talk about the problem with that fact as it relates to modern incarnation.
你认为我们应该怎么做？
What what do you think we should do?
我们应该像你说的那样直接救他们吗？
Should we just save them like you say?
因为我可以保持沉默。
Because I can bite my tongue.
是的。
Yeah.
我们去救他们吧。
Let's save them.
好的。
Okay.
然后你就可以，比如说
And then you can just, like
我甚至都没尝试，我不是要搞麦田怪圈那种事。
I'm not even try like, I'm not I'm not going crop circle here.
我只是想说，这里面有很多问题。
I'm just saying, like, there's just there's just a lot wrong with this.
但甚至在荣格之前——他创造了现代人格类型的概念，我应该说清楚这点。
But even before Jung, who created these the the concept of the modern concept, I should say, of personality types.
他提出了内向和外向的概念，不管你对荣格有什么看法，很多心理学家对他都有很多评价。
And he created the idea of introvert and extrovert, which say what you will about Jung, a lot of psychologists have a lot to say about him.
是啊。
Yeah.
未必是什么好话。
Not necessarily the nicest things to say.
但内向与外向性格理论被广泛接受，确实如此。
But introversion and extraversion is so widely accepted Yeah.
在心理学领域内外，我的意思是，即便这是他唯一的学术贡献，也足以刻在墓碑上了。
Inside and out of the field of psychology that I mean, if that were his only contribution to the field, that's that's enough to to engrave it on your tombstone for sure.
对。
Yeah.
他所说的四种心理类型都会根据你是否内向或外向而有所调整。
And each of those four psychological types he was talking about are modified by whether or not you're introverted or extroverted.
没错。
Right.
所以它们共同作用形成框架
So they all kinda work together to box
你说的就像那个'没错'。
That you was like the Right.
关键在于你以内向或外向的方式对待生活，其他都是次要分支或类似的东西。
That was the main thing is how you how you approach life as introvert or extrovert, and everything else is like a sub it's kind of a subsection of that or something.
是啊。
Yeah.
关于这个的一个问题是，我不认为这是批评的一部分，但
And and one of the issues with this, and I don't think this is part of the criticism, but
我正想说，我以为我们要救他。
I was gonna say, I thought we were saving him.
他这是基于他的想法。
He was this was based on his ideas.
他又不是有什么研究数据支撑。
Wasn't like he had all this research and all this data.
他是个深度思考者，整天坐着琢磨这些事。
He he was a deep thinker, and he sat around and and thought of these things.
对。
Right.
没错。
Exactly.
然后他根据这些写了整本书。
And then he wrote entire books based on them.
是啊。
Yeah.
但他是备受尊敬的精神分析师，早期和弗洛伊德一起推动精神分析运动。
But he's a very well respected psychoanalyst, and he was part of the early movement for psychoanalysis with Freud.
他们曾是同事，虽然荣格年轻得多。
They were they were colleagues, although Jung was much younger.
但最后他们说，我不喜欢你了。
But they eventually said, I don't like you anymore.
我们分道扬镳。
We're parting ways.
就在精神分析学逐渐确立自身地位的时候，如果你想了解更多关于精神分析的背景和起源，可以去听我们的直播节目《公关如何运作》。
But as as all as psychoanalysis was really kind of establishing itself, and if you wanna know more about that background and the origin of psychoanalysis, go listen to our How PR Works, the live show.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们讨论了很多这方面内容。
We talked a lot about that.
但就在精神分析开始主导心理学领域的同时，还有另一场平行运动在说：知道吗？
But as this was going on and it was starting to kinda dominate the field of psychology, there was a whole other movement, a parallel movement that said, you know what?
我们认为那些理论都太模糊了。
We think all that's a little mushy.
我们更喜欢能够量化心理学的理念。
We like the idea of being able to quantify psychology.
没错。
Yeah.
甚至在荣格之前，就有像阿尔弗雷德·比奈这样的人，他是智力测验的间接奠基者之一
And so even before Jung, there were guys like Alfred Binet, who was one of the indirect fathers of the intelligence test
对。
Yeah.
智商测试的研究者格雷和惠尔赖特等人，还有很多其他人都想说：不
The IQ test, pair of researchers named Gray and Wheelwright, and plenty of others who wanted to say, no.
不
No.
不
No.
不。
No.
你可以研究心理学。
You can study psychology.
你可以研究诸如人类性格这类事物，并将它们分类。
You can study things like the human personality, and you can typify them.
你可以进行数字运算。
You can add numbers.
你可以量化这些东西。
You can quantify this stuff.
通过这样做，我们也将证明心理学是一门科学。
And in doing so, we will prove psychology as a science as well.
所以这场将人分类并归入便捷的、近乎数字化的类别的运动
So this this whole movement to typify people and put them into convenient, almost numerical categories
是的。
Yeah.
源于这种迫切需要为心理学建立科学基础。
Came out of this urgent need to to establish a scientific basis for psychology.
是的。
Yeah.
而荣格，他某种程度上为此奠定了基础，多年后——虽然不算太久——有位名叫凯瑟琳·库克·布里格斯的女性。
And Jung, he's kinda laid the table for this, and and many years later, although not that many, there was a woman named Catherine Cook Briggs.
是的。
Yeah.
她当时正与女儿伊莎贝尔·布里格斯·迈尔斯一起研究这个项目。
And she was working on this with her daughter, one Isabelle Briggs Myers.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
我想你明白接下来要说什么了。
I think you see where this is going.
我明白。
I do.
这是二战后的时期，女性首次真正大规模进入职场——嗯。
This is post World War Two, when women were kind of, for the first time, really going into the workforce in full Mhmm.
而且是成批地涌入。
And en masse.
于是她们想，或许我们可以整理一些性格类型，看看这些女性适合什么样的工作，可能会喜欢哪些类型的工作。
And so they thought, well maybe we can put together some personality types to find out what kind of jobs these women might be suited for, what types of jobs they might enjoy.
没错。
Right.
她们开始合作研究这个项目，据传说，母亲凯瑟琳·库克·布里格斯原本按自己的方式研究，后来读到荣格的著作后说：我得推倒重来。
So they started working together on this, and as legend has it, the the mom, Catherine Briggs, Cook Briggs, she was doing her thing and then saw Jung's works and said, I gotta start over.
这就对了。
This is Right.
这才是关键。
This is the stuff.
她之前已经在研究一种性格测试了。
She had already been working on a personality test.
是啊。
Yeah.
但显然，根据传说，她把作品扔进了火里。
But apparently, according to the legend, threw her work into the fire.
没错。
Yeah.
她说我要从头开始。
Said I'm starting from scratch.
有点戏剧性。
It's little dramatic.
她是个如饥似渴的读者，尤其爱读那些从欧洲新出的心理学书籍。
She was a voracious reader, especially of the psychology, the new psychology books that were coming out of Europe.
对吧？
Right?
她没读过荣格的书吗？
She didn't read Jung?
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
她读过。
She did.
嗯，最终读了，是的。
Well, eventually, but Yeah.
然后看起来像是后来才接触到的。
And then seems like it kinda came along later.
所以呢，历史上确实存在某种奇怪的矛盾，我不清楚是研究不够全面还是真存在这种矛盾。
Well so, yeah, there's a there's kind of a weird discrepancy in the history, and I don't know if it's just it hasn't been covered right or if there is a weird discrepancy.
但据说是她发起的，所以那应该是在荣格心理学或人格类型理论同期或稍后。是的。
But supposedly, she initiated it, And so it would have been contemporary or shortly after Jung's psychology or personality types Yeah.
于1923年被翻译成英文。
Was translated into English in 1923.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但实际上是她女儿伊莎贝尔真正接手并推广开来，因为二战期间职场对女性的需求。
So but it was her daughter, Isabelle, who really took it and ran with it because of World War two and the need for women in the workplace.
没错。
Correct.
所以他们保留了荣格的部分理论并加以发展。
So they, you know, kinda kept some of young stuff built on that.
他们剔除了一些内容，尤其是很多关于潜意识的部分。
They kinda stripped some of it away, most notably a lot of the unconscious stuff.
他们可能觉得那些有点太怪异了。好吧。
They might have thought that was a little too weird Alright.
你知道的，对于现代美国职场来说。
For, you know, the modern American workforce.
是的。
Yep.
所以他们最终创造出了MBTI，即迈尔斯-布里格斯性格分类指标。
So what they ended up coming up with was the MBTI, Myers Briggs Type Indicator.
对。
Right.
非常有名。
Very famously.
是啊。
Yeah.
他们与一个团体有出版协议。
And they had a they had a publishing arrangement with one group.
我不记得那个团体叫什么了，但他们认为效果不太好。
I can't remember what they were called, but they thought it didn't do very well.
然后在1975年，他们换了另一家出版商CPP，这家现在负责出版迈尔斯-布里格斯性格分类指标。
And then in 1975, they went with another publisher, CPP, and they're the current publishers of the Myers Briggs Type Indicator.
从那时起——正是七十年代开始——它的普及度才真正广泛传播开来。
And since then, it that's when its ubiquity, like, just really spread, was starting in the seventies.
而现在它基本上已经与美国企业界紧密结合了。
And and now it's just it's basically married to corporate America.
我们要不要休息一下？
Should we take a break?
好啊。
Sure.
去和美国企业界结婚？
Go get married to corporate America?
没错。
Yep.
好像我们还没结似的。
As if we aren't already.
好的。
Alright.
我们稍后会回来，先简单聊聊人格测试的概况，然后更深入地探讨MBTI。
We'll come back, and we'll talk a little bit about personality tests in general, and then focus in a little more on the MBTI.
S one y l
S one y l
我是医生。
I'm Doctor.
普里扬卡·沃利，拥有双重认证的执业医师。
Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician.
我是哈里·昆达波卢，一名喜剧演员，也是曾在凌晨3点搜索‘我是不是得了坏血病’的人。
And I'm Hari Kundabolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, Do I have scurvy at 3AM?
在《健康那些事》里，我们用不同的方式探讨健康话题。
On Health Stuff, we're talking about health in a different way.
这不仅关乎如何改善健康，
It's not only about what we can do to improve our health.
更在于我们的健康状况反映了怎样的生活方式。
But also what our health says about us and the way we're living.
比如我们讨论糖尿病的那期节目。
Like our episode where we look at diabetes.
在美国，我的意思是，有相当比例的美国人处于糖尿病前期。
In The United States, I mean, percent of Americans are prediabetic.
二型糖尿病有多少是可预防的？
How preventable is type two?
非常。
Extremely.
或者我们对芒果有多么不可思议的深入分析。
Or our in-depth analysis of how incredible mangoes are.
哦，很难向世界解释你喜欢芒果，你的芒果很好因为芒果不可思议，但你甚至不知道。
Oh, it's hard to explain to rest of the world that you like, your mangoes are fine because mangoes are incredible, but, like, you don't even know.
你不知道。
You don't know.
你不知道。
You don't know.
这将是一段有趣的旅程，敬请收听。
It's going to be a fun ride, so tune in.
在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听健康内容。
Listen to health stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我是罗伯特·史密斯。
I'm Robert Smith.
这是雅各布·戈尔茨坦。
And this is Jacob Goldstein.
我们曾主持过一个叫《金钱星球》的节目。
And we used to host a show called Planet Money.
现在我们回来制作这个名为《商业历史》的新播客，讲述历史上最伟大的创意、人物和企业。
And now we're back making this new podcast called Business History about the best ideas and people and businesses in history.
还有一些最糟糕的人，
And some of the worst people,
商业史上最糟糕的想法和最具破坏性的公司。
horrible ideas, and destructive companies in the history of business.
拥有一个天才想法却没有需求，毫无意义。
Having a genius idea without a need for it is nothing.
就像根本没有这个想法一样。
It's like not having it at all.
这是
It's a
非常简单而优雅的一课。
very simple, elegant lesson.
做人们想要的东西。
Make something people want.
第一集：西南航空如何用廉价座位和免费威士忌打入航空业。
First episode, how Southwest Airlines used cheap seats and free whiskey to fight its way into the airline business.
最具德州特色的故事。
The most Texas story ever.
有很多
There's a lot
那个故事里的特立独行者。
of mavericks in that story.
我们节目里会有特立独行的人物。
We're gonna have mavericks on the show.
我们还会讲述许多强盗大亨的故事。
We're gonna have plenty of robber barons.
这么多强盗大亨。
So many robber barons.
还有你
And you
知道吗？
know what?
他们并非都是坏人。
They're not all bad.
我们将讨论一些著名商业天才的经典伟大时刻
And we'll talk about some of the classic great moments of famous business geniuses
以及那些常被忽视的阴暗面，
along with some of the darker moments that often get overlooked,
比如托马斯·爱迪生和电椅的故事。
like Thomas Edison and the electric chair.
请收听商业历史节目
Listen to business history on
在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
任何你获取播客的地方。
wherever you get your podcasts.
嘿，你好。
Hey there.
我是杰西·米尔斯医生。
Doctor Jesse Mills here.
我是UCLA健康中心男性诊所的主任，我想告诉你
I'm the director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health, and I wanna tell you
关于我的新播客《收发室》。
about my new podcast called The Mailroom.
我是乔丹，这档节目的制作人。
And I'm Jordan, the show's producer.
和很多男性一样，我已经多年没去看过医生了。
And like a lot of guys, I haven't been to the doctor in many years.
我会提出那些我们本该问却从未开口的问题。
I'll be asking the questions we probably should be asking but aren't.
因为男人通常除非脸皮快掉了或是骨折了才会去看医生。
Because guys usually don't go to the doctor unless a piece of their face is hanging off or they've broken a bone.
具体取决于哪根骨头。
Depends which bone.
哇哦。
Wow.
确实如此。
That's true.
每周我们都会剖析男性健康的独特世界，从睾酮、健身到饮食、生育能力，以及卧室里发生的那些事。
Every week, we're breaking down the unique world of men's health from testosterone and fitness to diets and fertility and things that happen in the bedroom.
你是指睡觉？
You mean sleep?
没错。
Yeah.
大概是这样，乔丹。
Something like that, Jordan.
我们将用通俗语言探讨科学，为你真正好奇的问题提供真实答案。
We'll talk science without jargon and get you real answers to the stuff you actually wonder about.
这会很有趣，无论你是27岁、97岁，还是介于两者之间。
It's gonna be fun, whether you're 27, 97, or somewhere in between.
男性健康远不止六块腹肌和营养补充剂。
Men's Health is about more than six packs and supplements.
它关乎精力、自信和人际关系。
It's about energy, confidence, and connection.
我们不仅希望你活得更久。
We don't just want you to live longer.
更希望你活得更好。
We want you to live better.
所以快去iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或你常听的平台查看邮件室栏目吧。
So check out the mail room on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
好的。
Alright.
性格测试只是专业心理评估的众多方式之一。
So personality test is just there are many many ways you can get evaluated psychologically by a professional.
这只是其中一种方法。
This is just one way.
你可以获取
You can get
你的头用卡尺量过吗？
your head measured with calipers?
在过去，他们确实那么做。
Back in the day, they did that.
对吧？
Right?
他们给你一堆
They give you a bunch
药物然后观察你的反应。
of drugs and see what you do.
方法有很多种。
There's a lot of ways.
但正如格拉布斯特指出的，这些测试大体可分为两类：投射性和客观性。
But these tests generally, as Grabster points out, falls into a couple of types, projective and objective.
投射性测试就像罗夏墨迹测验，给你看某种刺激物，答案开放解读，你告诉他们你的想法，有人则安静地坐着在纸上轻敲'嗯哼'。
Projective tests are things like the Rorschach test, where you're shown something, some kind of stimulus, and it's open to interpretation, and you tell them what you think about it, and someone sits back very quietly and taps on a pad of paper Mhmm.
然后做出评估。
And makes an evaluation.
非常有趣。
So very interesting.
而客观性测试更像是这些人格测验。
And then objective are more like these personality tests.
它们是标准化的评估工具，虽然你填写的内容是主观的，但会由专业人士再次进行评定。
They're standardized assessments that people use, and while it's subjective what you put down, they are then evaluated again by a professional.
对。
Right.
但归根结底，'客观'这个名称有点用词不当，因为最终它还是由人来解读的
But ultimately, that objective name is a bit of a misnomer because on the end of it, it's still interpreted by a person
是啊。
Yeah.
因此这就让它变得主观了。
Which is therefore makes it subjective.
没错。
Right.
而且根据询问对象不同，这成了所有性格测试的致命缺陷。
And which, depending on who you ask, is the fatal flaw of all personality tests.
应该像七十年代的好歌那样，在标题末尾加个小括号注明。
It should be the like, a good song from the seventies had a little parenthetical at the end of the title.
对。
Right.
它应该也标注'主观'二字。
It should just say subjective also.
没错。
Right.
（用括号标注）
In parentheses.
宝贝。
Baby.
所以大五人格测试，我感觉，是正规心理学家更倾向于使用的心理测试，而不是像MBTI那样的测试。
So the big five are and and this is the big five, I get the feeling, are the psychological tests that that legit psychologists are more in favor of over something like the MBTI.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
是的。
Yeah.
不仅仅是有测试来筛选大五人格。
It's not just there's tests to suss out the big five.
大五人格是心理学领域提出的性格类型分类，他们认为...
The big five are the personality types that the field of psychology has come up with that say
但那些运用大五的测试，对吧。
But the tests that that utilize that Right.
他们某种程度上认为比MBTI更靠谱。
They kinda think are more legit than the MBTI.
没错。
Yeah.
现实中没有一个心理学家会在日常实践中使用MBTI。
There's not a psychologist alive who uses the the MBTI in their regular practice.
哦，我敢打赌肯定有。
Oh, I bet there are.
没有，至少没人公开承认。
None none that are speaking up.
我敢保证肯定有人这么做。
I I guarantee you there's someone out there.
是啊。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
他是个自由散漫的类型。
He's a freewheeling type.
或者她是？
Or is she?
五大特质是外向性、亲和性、开放性、尽责性和神经质。
So the big five are extroversion, agreeableness, openness to experience, conscientiousness, and neuroticism.
对。
Right.
听起来像是你在交友网站上填的那种问卷。
Sounds like it could be like a dating site thing that you fill out.
真有趣。
It's funny.
每次我看到或听到神经质这个词，我脑子里就会响起铃声。
Every time I see or hear the word neuroticism, a bell goes off in my head.
就像，叮的一声。
Like, ting.
只是无声的铃铛？
Just a silent bell?
嗯。
Yeah.
哦，我不明白那是什么意思。
Oh, I don't know what that means.
我也不知道，但它引起了我的注意。
I don't either, but it draws my attention to it.
所以这些测试中的某些部分，我的意思是，这取决于具体内容。
So some of these tests I mean, it depends on what it is.
他们可能不会都用这些确切词汇来称呼，但大体上他们使用的术语——就像我说的，五大特质。
They might not all call them by those exact words, but they're generally using they call them, you know, like I said, the big five.
是啊。
Yeah.
我当时在研究那个五大特质理论，这个网站——我记不清名字了——他们基本上在讲解，比如外向性，现在已经是科学文献的常规内容了。
And I was I was looking into that big five, and this this site, I can't remember what it was called, but they were basically they were going over it, like, extroversion is, again, just part of the scientific literature at this point.
宜人性是指你有多同情心、善良或热情。
Agreeableness is, like, whether you're how sympathetic or kind or affectionate you are.
对。
Yeah.
尽责性是指你是否有条理？
Conscientiousness is are you organized?
你是否细致周全？
Are you thorough?
你是那种会准时到场的人吗？
Are you the type who shows up on time?
诸如此类的特质。
That kind of thing.
是的。
Yeah.
神经质，有时也被称为情绪稳定性。
Neuroticism, which is some kind sometimes called emotional stability.
你有多紧张？
How tense are you?
你有多情绪化？
How moody?
你有多焦虑？
How anxious?
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
叮。
Ding.
然后是，比如，对经验的开放性。
And then, like, openness to experience.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
他们有时称之为智力/想象力。
They sometimes call that intellect slash imagination.
你的兴趣广泛吗？
Do you have wide interests?
是的。
Yeah.
你是个富有想象力的人吗？
Are you an imaginative person?
你有洞察力吗？
Are you insightful?
这个网站确实费了很大功夫指出，你们所称的这些特质——五大性格特征
And this this site really went to a lot of pains to point out that what you would call these things, the big five personality traits
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
在心理学家看来，这些只是作为人类的你的一个维度而已。
Are, as far as a psychologist is concerned, just one dimension of you, the human being.
对。
Yeah.
而要更清晰地了解你，他们还需要研究你的动机。嗯。
And that to get a clearer picture of you, they would also need to study your motivations Mhmm.
你的情绪、态度、能力、自我认知、社会角色、自传体记忆、人生故事。
Your emotions, your attitudes, your abilities, your self concepts, your social roles, autobiographical memories, your life stories.
当你开始把这些因素综合起来，才能逐渐近似地描绘出一个人的人格。
Now if you start to put all these things together, then you can start to kind of approximate the person's personality.
没错。
Yeah.
但这需要...需要对个体进行大量研究。是的。
But it would just it it it takes a lot of study of an individual Yeah.
这些不同的组成部分构成了他们的个性，以便获得清晰的画像。
And these different components that make up their personality to get a clear picture.
所以我不认为会有心理学家到处说，嘿。
So I I don't think there are any psychologists walking around saying, hey.
五大性格类型就像是人格的起点和终点。
The big five personality types are like the beginning and end of a personality.
对。
Right.
只是如果你把它们组合起来，你只能得到某人性格的粗略轮廓，如果要分析一个人，你应该深入得多。
It's just if you put them together, you have a a a just a sketch of somebody's personality, and you you should go much deeper if you're analyzing someone.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得年轻时曾以为这类事情要简单得多。
I think I used to think this stuff was a lot neater when I was younger.
嗯。
Mhmm.
现在它反而让我有点焦虑。
And now it kinda gives me a little anxiety.
哦，是吗？
Oh, yeah?
是啊。
Yeah.
就像，我只是...不知道。
Like, I just I don't know.
至于我对自己这样做，而且我仍然喜欢治疗，这确实与众不同。
As far as doing this to myself, and I still enjoy therapy, like, that's different.
但没错。
But Right.
我不知道。
I don't know.
因为每一个这样的问题，我的回答都会是，嗯，这要看情况。
Because every single one of these, like, my answer would be, well, it depends.
嗯，我觉得虽然如此，我并非要代表你发言，但对我来说出现的一个问题是，如果有人对你说，你在神经质谱系上得分相当高。
Well, I think I think also though, and I don't mean to speak for you, but one of the issues that's that's comes up for me is if somebody goes to you and says, you know, you you you rate pretty high on the spectrum of neuroticism.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
显然，你会对这类事情耿耿于怀，特别是如果他们说得对的话。
Like, that's obviously, you're gonna obsess about that kind of stuff, especially if they're right.
这会让你变得神经质。
It can make you neurotic.
不过确实。
But yeah.
这是别人为你设定的界限，你可能觉得需要遵守，因为这就是约束你的界限，无论你是否真的如此。
It's a it's a boundary that somebody has just established for you that you may need feel the need to stay in because that's the boundary that you're bound by, whether you are or not.
就像说，这是我的框框。
Like, this is my box.
对。
Right.
我会住在里面。
That I'll live in it.
这就是它让我感到焦虑的原因。
That would be the reason it raises anxiety for me.
是啊。
Yeah.
就像我说的，我的全部态度就是看情况。
My whole thing, like I said though, is just depends.
每个被问到的问题——好吧，不是所有人。
Every single question that I would get asked well, not everyone.
有时候我相当，怎么说呢，对某件事很执着。
Sometimes I'm pretty, like, set on something.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
但通常我会说，哦，我不知道。
But usually I'd say, oh, I don't know.
取决于具体情境。
Depends on the scenario.
没错。
Right.
在人群中我更倾向于做X还是Y？
Am I more prone in a crowd to do x or y?
也许吧。
Maybe.
对。
Right.
也许不是。
Maybe not.
看心情。
Depends on my mood.
所以与其他性格测试一样，心理学中通过量化方式研究特质、性格特质的整个领域被称为心理测量学。
So one one with these other personality tests, and and the whole field in psychology of studying traits, personality traits in a quantitative way is called psychometrics.
是的。
Yeah.
对于这些更复杂的测试来说，如果遇到像你这样的受试者，它们的设计就是为了规避这个问题。
So with these tests, the more sophisticated ones, if they had a test taker like you, they're designed to get around that.
因此他们会从不同角度用多种方式询问同一个问题，最终将所有回答汇总并进行统计分析
So they're gonna ask a bunch of different questions about the same thing, but in different ways coming from different directions so that eventually, if you put all of them together and run them through a statistical analysis
嗯。
Yeah.
实际上就能得出你真实的答案，某种程度上非此即彼。
They're actually gonna come up with your genuine answer, which is kinda one way or another.
没错。
Right.
另一种他们用来规避这种犹豫不决的方式，我想是...嗯...
The other way that they get around this that kind of hemming and hawing, I guess Mhmm.
通过将其置于一个连续谱系上。
Is by placing it on a spectrum.
你没有被简单地归类到某一类别中。
You're not being lumped into one category or another.
这是光谱的一端。
It's here's one end of the spectrum.
这是光谱的另一端。
Here's the other end of the spectrum.
根据你的回答，你处于中间位置，就像大多数人一样。
And based on your answers, you fall somewhere around the middle like almost everybody does.
对。
Right.
如果你看心理测量测试，一个正规的心理测量测试结果基本上会呈现钟形曲线分布。
If you look at psychometric tests, a legitimate psychometric test is going to basically look like a bell curve
是啊。
Yeah.
大多数人都会集中在中间区域。
Where most people are going to be distributed toward the middle.
没错。
Yeah.
我觉得这就是为什么它会让我感到焦虑。
I think what that's why it gives me anxiety.
就像在问，这有什么意义呢？
It's like, what's the point?
别别把我框死。
Don't don't box me in.
这是个很好的问题。
It's a great question.
嗯，我认为后半部分主要是在探讨这有什么意义？
Well, I think the second half of this is a lot of what's the point?
是的。
Yeah.
你明白吗？
You know?
所以要通过这些测试来观察，看看它是否真的有意义，是否值得去做。嗯。
So looking, speaking on these tests to see if it's actually, if there is a point, if it's a valid thing to do Mhmm.
心理学家会关注几个必须考量的指标。
There are a couple of measures that one must look at and that psychologists do look at.
它是否有效，是否可靠？
Is it valid, and is it reliable?
有效性指的是它确实能很好地反映乔什或查克的特性。
Valid in the sense that it really is a pretty good reflection of Josh or Chuck Right.
或者其他任何人。
Or whoever.
它可靠吗？
And is it reliable?
如果我们明天再做这个测试，或者做另一个可能问题不同的测试。嗯。
So if we take this test tomorrow or a different test that's just, you know, maybe different questions Mhmm.
它能复现相同的结果吗？
Will it reproduce the same result?
对。
Right.
这可是件大事。
And that's a big deal.
如果你在谈论科学
If you're talking science
对。
Right.
你想建立一个基础，明确表示：不，这是科学。
And you're trying to have a foundation that says, no, this is science.
这不仅仅是一堆问题和嬉皮士式的疑问。如果你想要真实的数据和科学依据，就必须能够复现它。
It's not just a bunch of questions and hippie dippie questions that we're If you really want real data and science behind it, you have to be able to reproduce it.
对。
Right.
这些测试的另一个目的是剔除造假者。
One of the other things too that these tests are designed to do is to weed out fakers.
没错。
Right.
我们会详细讨论明尼苏达多项人格测验。嗯。
We'll talk a lot more about the Minnesota multiphasic personality inventory Mhmm.
这是其中重要的一项。
Which is one of the the big ones.
是的。
Yes.
可能是全球最广泛采用的人格测试。
Probably the most taken personality test in the world.
是的。
Yeah.
它内置了许多机制，显然非常擅长识别那些伪装的人。
And it has a lot of built in mechanisms, and apparently is really good at detecting people who are faking.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他们在假装患有精神疾病，或是试图掩饰自己确实患有精神疾病。
They're faking a mental illness or who are trying to pretend that they aren't suffering from a mental illness.
对。
Yeah.
它在这方面非常有效，因为测试极为详尽，通过统计分析，如果有人极端偏向某一方，就会立刻暴露他们在试图操控测试结果。
It's really good at detecting that because it's so exhaustive, and using statistical analysis, if somebody's skewed really far one way or skewed really far the other, they're just immediately exposed as as gaming the tests as best they can.
没错。
Yeah.
他们采用的一种方式，本身也算是个小小的心理学实验，就是告诉你：我们有办法。
And one way they do that, which is in its own way, its own little psychology experiment at least, is by telling you, we have ways.
对。
Right.
比如，你终将被发现，我们会知道的。
Like, you will be rooted rooted out, and we will know.
正是如此。
Exactly.
所以他们事先告诉人们，这样你更可能会想，好吧，去他的。
So they tell people that beforehand, so you're more inclined to just be like, alright, well, screw it.
我会说实话的。
I'll tell the truth.
没错。
Right.
尤其是当他们坐在那里，像在排出注射器里的空气时。
Especially when they're sitting there, like, clearing the air out of a syringe.
那很吓人。
That's creepy.
确实。
It is.
好吧。
Alright.
那我们回到CPP和MBTI的话题上。
So let's get back to CPP and the MBTI.
咨询心理学家出版社对吧。
The consulting psychologist's press Right.
至于迈尔斯-布里格斯，尽管他们说这不是测试，我们还是继续叫它测试吧。
And the Myers Briggs we'll just keep calling it a test even though they say it's not a test.
它是一种类型量表。
It's a it's a type inventory.
是啊。
Yeah.
那我们就直接开始解析这个话题吧。
So we'll we'll just go ahead and break down the deal here.
目标是将你归类为16种人格类型之一，这取决于你在四组对立特质中的倾向。
There are the the object is to sort you into one of 16 different types, personality types, based on which side of four pairs or dichotomies that you're gonna fall on.
最基础的是，如我们所说，你可能是内向型或外向型，即E型。
And those are, at the very base, you're either introverted or extroverted, like we said, e Yeah.
或者是感觉型或直觉型，即S型和N型。
Or Sensing or intuition, s and n.
这些术语听起来有点令人困惑，比如感觉型的人到底是什么意思？
And these words, they sound a little confusing, like what the heck does a sensing person mean?
对。
Yeah.
它意味着你喜欢大数据、实证数据和大量信息。
It means you like the big data and empirical data and a lot of information.
没错。
Right.
而直觉型则是凭直觉行事。
Whereas intuition is like you just go with your gut.
这是你更倾向的方式。
That's how you prefer to be.
正确。
Correct.
对吧？
Right?
接下来，我们要讨论思考与感受。
The next, we have thinking and feeling.
思考更侧重于逻辑。
Thinking being more focused on logic.
我刚才说了逻辑吗？
Did I say logic?
嗯。
Mhmm.
带't'的那个词？
With a t?
当然。
Sure.
还有客观性。
And objectivity.
而如果你是感受型，你会更关注人际关系和团队和谐。
And then if you're feeling, you're gonna be more interested in in relationships and harmony among your group.
这两个维度相当直观。
Those two are pretty straightforward.
对。
Yeah.
我也这么认为。
Think so.
最后还有判断与感知这一维度。
And then lastly, there's judging and perceiving.
这就是所谓的二分法。
Those are that's a dichotomy.
判断型人格偏好计划性，追求果断，这是他们对待生活的方式。
Judging is where you you prefer schedules, you prefer decisiveness, that's how you kind of approach life.
是啊。
Yeah.
而感知型人格则更倾向于随遇而安。
And perceiving is where you're just kinda like, whatever.
没错。
Yeah.
我对此并不太担心。
I'm not too worried about it.
嗯。
Yeah.
这有点像A型人格和B型人格的区别，顺便说一句——
That's almost kind of like the difference between the type a and type b personalities, which by the way Yeah.
是由两位心脏病学家提出的概念
Was made up by a pair of cardiologists
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
他们的研究后来被烟草业秘密资助，因为该行业试图寻找除吸烟外导致心脏病发作的其他解释。
Whose work was later secretly funded by the tobacco industry who were looking for anything to explain heart attacks besides smoking.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
所以他们多年来一直资助A型和B型人格研究。
So they funded type a and type b personality research for years.
有意思。
Interesting.
是啊。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It really is.
顺便说一句，有个非常有趣的价格，我觉得是的。
There's a just as an aside, there's a really interesting price, I think yeah.
Priceonomics网站的文章。
Priceonomics article.
关于A型和B型人格的？
On type a and type b?
对。
Yeah.
查一下就知道了。
Just look it up.
我不记得名字了。
I don't remember the name.
好吧。
Alright.
所以当你坐下来做这些结测试时，会有一系列问题需要回答
So when you sit down to take one of these knot tests with a series of questions that you answer
我想他们管这些叫工具，顺便说一下。
I think they call them instruments, by the way.
我认为它们是心理测量工具。
I think they're Psychometric instruments.
基本上就是纸上的一系列问题。
Which are basically a series of questions on a piece of paper.
是啊。
Yeah.
听起来像考试。
Sounds like a test.
他们会给出像这样的例子，Ed这里有些不错的范例。
They will say things like, Ed has some good examples here.
当你去旅行时，你是希望一切提前计划好，还是更愿意顺其自然，每天随心所欲？
When you go on a trip, do you want everything planned out in advance, or would you rather just take each day as it comes and do whatever you feel like?
都是些相当直白的问题。
Pretty straightforward kind of stuff.
对。
Right.
然后他们还有像词语配对这样的题目，纯粹看你对哪个词更有好感。
And then they also have things like word pairs just to see literally what word you like better.
比如，同情心，远见。
Like, compassion, foresight.
比如，你更喜欢哪个词？
Like, which word do you like better?
胡萝卜还是水果？
Carrots or fruit?
水果。
Fruit.
水果。
Fruit.
对。
Yeah.
这个更漂亮。
This is prettier.
确实。
It is.
所以我正回头看这里。
So I'm looking back here.
我只是想说，所以我认为
I just wanna say, so I think
你在试图弄清楚自己是什么类型吗？
You trying to figure out what you were?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得可能是ENFP（竞选者人格）？
I think e n f p, maybe?
我想那就是我之前的类型。
I think That's what I was.
我们当时不在同一个地方。
We weren't in the same thing.
我不记得了。
I don't remember.
由美和我当时是一样的。
Yumi and I got the same thing.
她找到一封旧邮件，但忘了告诉我我们当时是什么关系。
She found an old email, but she forgot to tell me what we were.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
我...我真的不知道。
I I really I don't know.
问题是，我们今天还会一样吗？
Problem is, would we still be the same today?
是啊。
Yeah.
而且我记得，如果没记错的话，我们不是曾经把这个贴在办公室的大板子上展示过一阵子吗？
And I think, if I'm not mistaken, didn't we have this up on a big board in the office for a while?
好像是。
Think so.
对啊。
Yeah.
这看起来像是杰瑞在点头。
That seems like a Jerry's nodding.
这似乎违反了协议。
That seems like a breach of protocol.
当然。
Sure.
比如隐私。
Like privacy.
是啊。
Yeah.
好吧，再次强调，从一开始就被枪指着强迫做这件事。
Well, again, being forced at gunpoint to do it was just from the start.
我记得还挺有趣的。
I remember it was kinda fun.
我那天过得很开心。
I had a fun day.
哦，我们也会讨论那件事的。
Oh, we'll talk about that as well.
所以如果你以单身个人身份做这个（不是指未婚，就是单独一个人），大概要花费50美元。
So it's gonna cost you, if you just do this as a single individual, not meaning not married, but just a person, about $50.
不过，已婚人士应该收费更高。
Although, they should charge more if you're married.
这是个更复杂的测试。
It's a more complex test.
如果你想获得一小时的反馈，大概要额外支付100美元。
About $50 if you want an hour of feedback, that'll cost you an extra 100.
如果你需要一份完整的职业报告，费用是16.95美元。
And if you want a career report all typed up, that'll be $16.95.
是的。
Yeah.
如果是现场培训课程，费用是1500美元。
And if you this is $1,500 for a on-site training class.
这和我们之前参加的那种一样吗？
Is that like what we had?
所以这个解释得不是很清楚。
So this is this is not very well explained.
如果你想进行迈尔斯-布里格斯性格类型指标测试的话，是的。
If you want to administer the Myers Briggs personality or type inventory Yeah.
你可以获得认证资格。
You can get certified.
这是一个为期四天的培训课程。
It's a four day training course.
哦，好的。
Oh, okay.
你需要支付1500到1600美元。
You pay 1,500 to $1,600.
哦，那是你...那个...
Oh, that's You what that
否则在法律上你就不能实施这项测试，否则就是侵犯他们的版权。对吧。
cannot legally administer this test or you're infringing on their copyrights Right.
除非你获得了CPP认证才能做这件事。
Unless you are certified by CPP to do this.
而我们
And we
应该在直播中互相配合，哪怕要冒诉讼风险。
should do it with one another on the air and risk a lawsuit.
我们哦，是的。
We oh, yeah.
嗯，就凭你刚才大声问的那个问题，可能已经惹上官司了。
Well, you probably got a suit already with that one question you asked out loud.
哪个问题？
Which one?
哦，就那一个？
Oh, just the one?
是啊。
Yeah.
你去旅行时喜欢把所有行程都提前规划好吗？
When you go on a trip, do you want everything planned out in advance?
我刚瞎编的。
I just made that up.
哦，编得不错。
Oh, good job.
不错吧，我是从Travelocity学来的。
Good I got that from Travelocity.
不错。
Nice.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
那个小地精在你耳边低语。
That little gnome whispered it in your ear.
没错。
That's right.
但这样你就可以去考取认证，然后现在你可以去企业宣传说，嘿。
But so you you would go and get certified, and then now you can go around to businesses and say, hey.
你想更了解你的员工吗？
Do you wanna know more about your employees?
你想知道谁擅长什么吗？
You wanna know who's good at what?
对。
Right.
让我来给你的员工做迈尔斯-布里格斯性格测试，就像给他们都上个课一样。
Let me come give the Myers Briggs type inventory to your your employees, and it'll be Just put them all in class.
会很棒的。
It'll be wonderful.
对吧？
Right?
原来整个过程是这样的。
So that's how the whole process goes.
你花钱获得认证后，就会变成迈尔斯-布里格斯测试的某种传道者，嗯哼。
You pay to become certified, and then you go become something of an evangelist for the Myers Briggs test Mhmm.
然后你推销这个测试。
And you sell the test.
基本上你也变成了一个推销员。
You basically become a salesman as well.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
这是个非常有趣的动态关系
It's a it's very interesting It dynamic that
他们正在运作的。
they have going.
确实如此。
That is.
这个词用得不错。
It's a good word.
动态关系。
Dynamic.
他们想强调做测试的人才是专家，还用了这个关于用手习惯的比喻，我没完全理解。
They want to point out that the person taking the test is the expert, and they also use this metaphor of handedness, which I didn't fully understand.
他们会说类似这样的话：用惯用手签名感觉更自然，但技术上来说，必要时你也可以用非惯用手签名。
They say things like, it feels more comfortable to sign your name with your dominant hand, but technically, you can sign with your non dominant hand if you need to.
对。
Right.
我不确定他们想在那里证明什么。
I'm not sure what they're trying to prove there.
他们试图说明，尽管MBTI将人完全归类于某一类型而非连续谱系，但他们认为这种分类实际上只是反映了你的偏好倾向。
They're trying to say that despite the MBTI pigeonholing you fully in one category or another rather than on a spectrum, they're saying that category that it's pigeonholing you into is actually just your preference.
这并不是特指你个人。
It's not you specifically.
这只是你的倾向性偏好。
It's just Your inclination predisposition.
是的。
Yeah.
你通常是个外向者，但当然，每个人都喜欢有自己的独处时间。
You tend to be an extrovert, but, of course, everybody likes their own personal alone time.
所以没错，你偶尔会表现出内向，但多数时候你还是外向的。
So, yeah, you're gonna be an introvert once in while, but you're an extrovert more than than other times.
是啊。
Yeah.
因为我无法用左手签名。
Because I can't sign my name with my left hand.
我不喜欢那个类比，因为我左手连握笔都很困难。
That I didn't like that analogy because it literally I can barely hold a pen with my left hand.
我看你现在正在这么做。
I'm seeing you're doing it right now.
哇。
Wow.
那真是太糟糕了。
That was pretty bad.
如果我试着做的话，看起来会像一个患关节炎的三岁小孩胡乱涂鸦出来的。
If if I try to do it, it would look like a a three year old with arthritis has tried to, like, scribble it out.
我的看起来像Unum。
Mine mine looks like Unum.
Unum？
Unum?
U d m。
U d m.
Unum？
Unum?
是的。
Yeah.
Unum。
Unum.
这是我用左手签的名。
It's my signature with my left hand.
正如你所说，他们确实试图指出这很有趣，因为他们把你框住了，但同时他们又说，但你知道，就像你说的，这只是倾向性。
And they do they do try and point out, like you said, that it's interesting because they box you in, but at the same time, they're saying, but, you know, like you said, this is just predisposition.
不要彻底认为你就是这类人，即使你是个ENFP。
Don't thoroughly think of it about you being this type of person, even though you are an ENFP.
对。
Right.
就像你之前说的，它几乎被编号了。
Like you said it was earlier that it was almost numbered.
我是说，是。
I mean, is.
它是字母标记的。
It's lettered.
但这是另一种量化方式。
But this is a different way of quantifying it.
是啊。
Yeah.
但没有数字。
But without numbers.
好吧。
Alright.
你想休息一下再回来，或许做点批评讨论？
You wanna take a break and then come back and and maybe do a little criticism?
好啊。
Yeah.
行。
K.
在《健康那些事》播客中，我们正在解决所有让你夜不能寐的健康问题。
On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night.
是的。
Yes.
我是医生。
I'm Doctor.
普里扬卡·沃利，双委员会认证医师。
Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician.
我是哈里·昆达波鲁，喜剧演员，曾凌晨三点搜索‘我是不是得了坏血病？’
And I'm Hari Kundabolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, Do I have scurvy at 3AM?
在《健康那些事》里，我们用不同方式探讨健康话题。
On Health Stuff, we're talking about health in a different way.
不仅关注如何改善健康，
It's not only about what we can do to improve our health.
更探讨健康状况如何反映我们的生活方式。
But also what our health says about us and the way we're living.
比如我们那期关于糖尿病的节目。
Like our episode where we look at diabetes.
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