短篇故事：杀死一具尸体

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This is an iHeart podcast.

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嘿，欢迎收听短篇节目。我是乔什。我是查克。目前我们都还活着。

Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. It's Josh. It's Chuck. We're both alive for now.

好吧，老兄，我告诉你。如果我真的死了，我会希望你再杀我一次确认。

Well, I tell you what, buddy. If I was ever dead, I would I would want you to make sure of it by killing me again.

是啊。但这会让我陷入法律泥潭，结局可能对我不利，查克。所以我不确定能否保证做到。

Yeah. But you'd be setting me up for a real legal quagmire that probably would not break in my favor, Chuck. So I don't know if I can guarantee that.

真希望我能模仿已故演员/魔术师/喜剧人里奇·杰伊。嗯。任何看过1999年PT安德森那部我认为很棒的《木兰花》的人...

I wish I could do a good impression of the late actor slash magician slash kind of comedian Ricky Jay. Mhmm. Because anyone who's ever seen the to my mind, great PT Anderson movie from 1999, Magnolia

那确实很棒。

It is great.

会想起来的。顺便说一句，如果你感兴趣的话，我们节目的朋友，乔希的男友亚当·普拉尼卡，曾在我的PT安德森系列节目《Movie Crush》中亮相。所以在节目结束前，我们涵盖了《木兰花》和所有PT安德森的电影。

Will recall. And if you're interested, by the way, our friend of the show, Josh's boyfriend, Adam Pranica, was on my PT Anderson series on Movie Crush. So we covered Magnolia and all the PT Anderson movies before the show ended, that is.

我有个比你说的更有趣的事。

I've got one even better than you.

是什么？

What's that?

我们节目的另一位朋友，保罗·F·汤普金斯

Our another friend of the show, Paul f Tompkins

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

是P·F·汤普金斯，不是P·T·安德森。他曾在桌边为《木兰花》做剧本朗读，和所有演员一起，显然表现不够好，以至于汤姆·克鲁斯不得不插话，像是‘我们能认真点吗？’之类的。这太搞笑了。

P f Tompkins, not p t Anderson. He did a script reading for Magnolia at the table with all of the actors and apparently was not doing well enough for Tom Cruise not to say something like, can we can we keep getting this right or something? It's a hilarious

我从没听说过这事。

I've never heard that.

汤姆·克鲁斯基本上就是在对PF·汤普金斯发脾气，因为他在剧本朗读会上表现不佳。

Where Tom Cruise is essentially, like, being mean to p f Tomkins for not doing good job script reading.

其实在那之前我还挺喜欢汤姆·克鲁斯的，毕竟波洛克·汤普金斯可是国宝级人物，他还参演过《血色将至》——虽然我不清楚原因，或许他在那次剧本朗读会上确实表现得很出色。

Well, that I sort of liked Tom Cruise until then because Pollock Tompkins is a national treasure, and he was actually in the movie There Will Be Blood because I don't know. Maybe he did such a good job at that table reading.

对，没错。那是PT·安德森的另一部电影对吧？是的。

Yeah. The yeah. That's another p t Anderson film. Right? Yeah.

就是他说'我受够喝奶昔了'还是什么的那部。

Where he goes, I I'm done with drinking milkshakes or something.

就是这句。'我不要奶昔了，谢谢'。我想应该是这句台词。

That's it. I don't want any more milkshake. Thank you. I think it's the line.

我们为什么在讨论《木兰花》啊，查克？

Why are we why are we talking about Magnolia, Chuck?

因为那部电影开头又出现了系列小片段，由里奇·杰伊旁白。第一个片段——我不太记得是不是第一个了——但那段蒙太奇处理得相当酷。嗯。

Because once again, at the beginning of that movie, there's a series of vignettes. Ricky Jay narrates them. And the first I think it's the first one. I don't recall. But it's a very kinda cool sequence Mhmm.

有这么一个故事，讲的是一个叫悉尼·贝林格的人试图自杀，结果却成了自杀。简单来说，他从窗户跳了下去。嗯。他的父母住在楼下或他楼下的公寓里。嗯。

Where there's this story is told where a guy named Sydney Beringer attempted suicide, but it became a suicide. He the long and short of it is he he jumped out of a window. Mhmm. His parents lived in the apartment or in an apartment below him. Mhmm.

当他跳下，以为会迎来死亡时，他的父母正在争吵。母亲用猎枪瞄准父亲，枪走火了。子弹穿过窗户，没打中父亲，却击中了正在下坠的儿子。这个年轻人跳楼时并不知道，楼下其实有张网能接住他，救他一命。

And as he jumped and was falling to what he thought would be his death, his mom and dad had got into an argument. His mom aims a shotgun at the dad. The gun goes off. It goes through the window missing the father and kills the son on his way down to land. The kid the guy didn't know this when he went to jump off the building, but there was a net down there that would have caught him and saved his life.

是啊。所以这件事从他自己结束生命，变成了母亲谋杀他，最后又被判定为自杀未遂。因为那张网的存在，他本不可能完成自杀。但更离奇的是，警察赶到时，父母说：‘我们根本不知道这把猎枪装了子弹。我们经常用它互相威胁，所以从不装弹。’没错。

Yeah. So it went from him him taking his own life to his mom murdering him to his suicide being ruled an attempted one. He couldn't have completed it because of that net, but it gets even crazier because when the police show up, the mom and dad say, we have no idea how this shotgun was loaded. We use it to threaten one another all the time, so we know not to load it. Yeah.

经过进一步调查，他们发现是悉尼自己装的子弹。所以他亲手给杀死自己的枪上了膛，最终法医还是裁定为自杀。

And upon more investigation, they found that Sydney had loaded it. So he loaded the gun that killed him, and so the medical examiner ruled it a suicide after all.

没错。不过这个故事后来被证实是虚构的。它改编自罗纳德·奥普斯的故事，源自美国法医学科学院院长唐·哈珀·米尔斯的口述。1987年他在宴会上讲了这个故事，后来流传到网上，但米尔斯坚称这是他为说明新证据如何彻底改变验尸官结论而编造的。

That's right. The story is not true as it turns out. It was based on the story of Ronald Opus, which came from an oral story, of the president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, Don Harper Mills. In 1987, he told the story at a banquet, eventually found its way to the Internet, but Mills maintains that he made it up to illustrate how turning up new evidence can completely alter the outcome of a coroner's ruling.

对。这个例子完美展示了证据收集中离奇的转折会如何彻底改变法医对死因的判定。这也适用于一个非常小众的领域——我想应该算是法律学术研究的冷门分支。

Right. And it's a really good example of just how how strange turns of events in in evidence collection can completely alter a medical examiner's ruling on the cause of death. And that also applies to an entirely, like, niche, I guess, area of leaguers legal scholarship

嗯。

Mhmm.

问题是，你能谋杀一个已经死去的人吗？事实证明，这远比你想象的复杂得多。

Which is, can you murder someone who's already dead? And it turns out it's not nearly as straightforward as you would think.

好了，我们休息一下。真是吊人胃口。稍后我们将继续讨论《不羁夜》和心碎的故事。

Alright. Let's take a break. What a tease. We'll come back with more talk of boogie nights and heartache right after this.

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嘿，大家好，我是马里奥·洛佩兹。返校季令人兴奋，但也可能让人不知所措，孩子们可能会感到孤独。这种脆弱性可能被人口贩子利用。

Hey. What's up? It's Mario Lopez. Back to school is an exciting time, but it can also be overwhelming, and kids may feel isolated. A vulnerability that human traffickers can exploit.

人口贩卖并不总是以你预期的方式出现。日常的瞬间可能成为心怀不轨者的可乘之机。无论你是家长、老师、教练还是邻居，请保持关注、提出问题、维持联系。

Human trafficking doesn't always look like what you expect. Everyday moments can become opportunities for someone with bad intentions. Whether you're a parent, teacher, coach, or neighbor, check-in. Ask questions. Stay connected.

蓝色行动是一项全国性宣传活动，提供资源帮助识别疑似人口贩卖案件。了解迹象及举报方式，请访问dhs.gov/bluecampaign。

Blue Campaign is a national awareness initiative that provides resources to help recognize suspected instances of human trafficking. Learn the signs and how to report at dhs.gov/bluecampaign.

法律上是否允许对尸体实施谋杀。显然，从物理角度这是不可能的。但现实中确有判例——有人做过类似的事，而法律学者、检察官、辩护团队和陪审团不得不对此进行裁决。其中最著名的案例之一发生在1986年的法国。

Whether it's possible legally to murder a dead body. Obviously, physically, it's not. And there's actual case law Yeah. Where people have done something like this, and legal scholars, prosecutors, defense teams, juries have had to sort this out. And one of the best known ones came in France in 1986.

没错。随着Monchure Wilkins的去世。Monchure Wilkins与Monchure Charot发生了争执。是这样吗？

That's right. With the death of Monchure Wilkins. Monchure Wilkins got in a bra with Monchure Charot. Is that right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

呃，我是说，是monsieur Charot。我刚才说什么来着？Monsieur。

Well, I mean, it's monsieur Charot. What did I say? Monsieur.

这个词怎么发音？

How do you pronounce it?

Monsieur。真的吗？

Monsieur. Really?

为什么是m o n开头？

Why is it m o n?

全都静悄悄的？不过是法国人在做他们法国人的事罢了。

Is that all silent? It's just the French doing their French thing.

所以monsieur（先生）这个词根本不存在吗？

So monsieur isn't isn't a thing at all?

不，就是monsieur。

No. It's monsieur.

我听说过monsieur，只是以为这是个

I've heard of monsieur. I just thought this is a

更正式的称谓之类的。

more formal title or something.

不，不，就是这样。

No. No. That's that's it.

拼成m o n，真奇怪。

Spelled m o n. That's weird.

那位就是著名的先生。

That's the famous monsieur.

好吧。那么，夏罗先生。好的。夏罗先生与威尔金斯先生发生了这场斗殴。嗯。

Alright. So So monsieur Charo. Alright. So monsieur Charo was in this brawl with missior Wilkins. Mhmm.

威尔金斯被夏罗先生用铁棍击昏。非常精彩。接着，夏罗先生又用同一根铁棍勒死了威尔金斯先生。第二天，另一个家伙，皮埃尔·德罗先生

Wilkins was knocked unconscious by an iron bar by missior Charo. Very nice. And then, missior Charo used that same iron bar to strangle Monsieur Wilkins. The next day, another dude, Monsieur Pierre Dero

非常精彩。

Very nice.

出现了，心想，嘿，这个威尔金斯还活着，所以我得用玻璃瓶把他打死，再勒他一下确保他死透。法医发现其实是夏罗杀了他，所以他早就死了。

Came along and was like, hey, this Wilkins guy is still alive, and so I'm gonna I'm gonna beat him to death with a glass bottle and strangle him just to make sure that he's dead. The medical examiner found that Chareau had actually killed him, so he was dead.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么问题来了，当彼得·罗对着尸体做出这看似谋杀的行为时，他会面临什么后果？

So then the question remains, what happens to Petter Rowe when he commits this seeming act of murder on a dead body?

没错。这个问题确实有个标准答案。但在揭晓答案前，我们需要先讨论几个法律概念和另一个案例。明白了吗？

Right. So there's an actual answer for this. And before we get to the answer, we have to talk about a couple of legal things and another case. Yeah. Okay?

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

为佩尔杜厄辩护的团队主张，他不能被指控谋杀或谋杀未遂，因为谋杀威尔金斯先生属于法律上的不可能犯罪。他客观上无法完成这个行为，意味着他根本不可能构成该罪名。这显然是法律界长期存在的观点——法律不可能性与犯罪认定的关系。于是有些人就接受了这个说法。

So the people who are arguing against Perdureux's guilt, so say his defense team, said he he cannot be charged with murder or even attempted murder because murdering Monsieur Wilkins was a legal impossibility. It was impossible for him to complete this act, which means that he can't possibly be guilty of it. And that was apparently a long standing idea in, law that this idea of a legal impossibility and, guilt. Right? And so some people said, okay.

这个解释确实很有说服力，我也觉得他可能无罪。但另一些人立即提出质疑：等等，先别急。

That's actually a pretty good explanation. I think he he might not be guilty. And other people said, wait. Wait. Wait.

别管这些法律不可能性的玄乎理论。我们认为更重要的是犯罪意图——他当时想干什么？他动手时确实以为威利肯还活着，他的主观意图就是要杀人。

Forget this legal impossibility mumbo jumbo. What we think is more important is intent. What did he intend to do? He thought that Williken was, still alive when he tried to murder him. So his intent was to murder this man.

因此他理应被判谋杀未遂。这下所有人都懵了：天呐，到底该怎么判？

Therefore, he's guilty of attempted murder. And everybody said, what to do? What to do? Sacre bleu.

没错。我还以为他们会说'sacred blau'呢。于是他们决定寻找判例参考。那是八十年代的事，我不确定他们是否真的参考了美国案例，毕竟不能直接用别国的判例作为依据，对吧？

That's right. I thought that that was sacred blau. So they said we must look to see if there's any precedent. That was in the eighties, and I don't know if they actually looked at the American case or not because you can't really set precedent on someone else's country. Right?

不，不。这不一定算先例，但我觉得在外界看来...确实。嗯。

No. No. It's not precedent necessarily, but I think out there. Sure. Yeah.

好。1975年的纽约市，比法国事件早十一年——这说法只有我用。当时有几个家伙在公寓里喝酒，三个男人。公寓主人叫迈克尔·盖勒，还有个叫乔·布什的家伙一直蹭住在那儿。他们越喝越醉，明显是些暴躁易怒的类型。

Okay. So New York City 1975, eleven years before the French incident, as it's known by me only. There were some dudes drinking in an apartment, three guys drinking. The guy's apartment was Michael Geller, and another guy, Joe Bush, had been staying there, kinda freeloading, staying with the guy. And they were sitting there getting a little more drunk, obviously some hotheads hotheads kinda guys.

是啊。

Yeah.

盖勒开始说：嘿老兄，你一直白住这儿，该付点房租了。这事越闹越大，最后布什朝他胸口开了三枪。

And Geller started saying like, hey, dude. You've been crashing here. I need some rent. Why don't you start chipping in on rent? This thing escalated such that Bush eventually shot him three times in the chest.

那人倒地后，第三个人梅尔文·德鲁加什进来，站在盖勒身边又朝他头部补了五枪。这两人当然都被控谋杀。但德鲁加什的辩护理由是：这人当时已经死了，至少你们无法证明我朝他头部开五枪时他还活着。嗯。

And the guy falls to the floor, And then the third guy comes in, Melvin Dlugash, and stands over Geller and fires five more shots into his head. Both of these guys are charged, obviously, with murder. But once again, DeLugash, his defense was, hey. This guy was already dead, or at least you can't prove that he was alive Mhmm. When I shot him five times in the head.

他最初被判谋杀罪，但后来判决被推翻，理由是你们无法证明死者当时还活着，所以不能以谋杀罪起诉我。

He was initially convicted of murder, but it was overturned saying that you can't prove that he was dead, so you can't charge me with murder.

对。我想说，这看似是桩骇人听闻的罪行，但要知道当时美国汽油里还含铅呢。

Right. And I just wanna say, this seems like a fairly shocking crime, but this took place while there's still lead in America's gasoline.

对，没错。

Right. Yeah.

所以，就像你说的，卢·加什——这大概是那个糟糕名字最好的发音方式了——他之所以能脱罪，是因为检方无法证明盖勒还活着，而纽约最高法院表示：不行，没这么简单。

So, yeah, like you said, Lou Gash, I I that's the best way you could say that horrible name. Yeah. He got off because, yeah, the the prosecution couldn't prove that Geller was still alive, and New York Supreme Court said, no. No. Not so fast.

盖勒是否还活着并不重要。你以为他可能还活着，所以才朝他头部开了五枪。我们现在要摒弃'法律不可能性'这个概念，采用一个全新的框架——或者说把现有框架确立为标准——即以意图为准。你的犯罪意图决定了你有罪与否，而非你试图实施的行为在事实上或可能性上是否成立。

It doesn't matter whether Geller was still alive. You thought he might have still been alive, which is why you shot him five times in the head, and we're going to throw out this idea of legal impossibility and adopt basically a new framework, or at least we're gonna take an existing framework and basically make it the framework, which is intent. Yeah. That is that. Like, what you intended to do determines your guilt or innocence, not the actual fact or possibility of whether you could have done what you were trying to do.

没错。具体来说，指控应该是谋杀未遂。你不能以谋杀罪起诉某人

Right. Specifically, the charge is attempted murder. What you can't do is charge somebody with murder

对。

Right.

因为你无法谋杀一具尸体。这不科学——且不论法律层面，从科学角度就不可能杀死已经死亡的东西。但谋杀未遂的指控完全成立。

Because you can't murder a a corpse. It's just not scientifically forget legally, it's not scientifically possible. Right. To kill something that is already dead. But attempted murder, you certainly can.

于是法国最高法院对佩尔杜案作出了裁决

So the French high court weighs in on the perdureux case

嗯。

Mhmm.

跟曼彻尔一起。老兄，真是个蠢货。

With Manchur. Man, what a dope.

不，正因为如此，这堪称即时经典。

No. This is a this is a an instant classic because of that.

他们得出了相同结论，然后说，好吧。那你就是谋杀未遂了，因为我们大洋彼岸的朋友——美国佬，可能影响了我们的判断。

And they came to the same conclusion, and they said, alright. You're guilty of attempted murder then because our our friend, the Yanks, across the pond, they informed our opinion on this perhaps.

是啊，有可能。所以至少还有一个案例要提，这种情况出人意料地频繁。我本以为最多一两起，但实际时不时就有。

Yeah. Perhaps. So there's there's at least one more that we wanna call out. This actually happens with surprising frequency. I would not think that there would be more than one or two cases, but there are some here or there.

我看到的一个案例是，有时用来起诉连开多枪的警察。多伦多有个警察，面对持刀男子连开三枪使其倒地，又在对方倒地后补了数枪。陪审团认定：前几枪合法，但补枪属于非法谋杀。因职务行为无法判谋杀罪，最终以补枪行为定罪谋杀未遂。

One that I saw was that it's sometimes used to prosecute cops who shoot people a bunch of times. There was a cop in Toronto, who a guy came out with a knife, he shot him three times, and the guy dropped. And then he went up and shot him a bunch more times when the guy was on the ground, And the jury said, nope. That was illegal illegal murder. We can't we can't convict you of murder because this is in the line of duty, and it was the bullets after, the shots after, that we can now convict you of attempted murder.

没错。我们澳大利亚的老朋友也遇到过类似情况。2014年墨尔本附近有个看似安乐死的案子——墨尔本可是我们最爱的城市之一。当事人丹尼尔·达林顿和洛基·斯巴达克斯，马特·斯卡西，这名字真绝。

Yeah. It also happened to our dear friends in Australia Mhmm. In the case of what looks like a mercy killing in 2014 near one of our favorite cities, Melbourne. Mhmm. Two guys, Daniel Darrington and Rocky Spartacus, Matt Scassy, what a name.

是的。他们打了起来，在争夺一把枪时枪走火了。呃，本来想说‘打死’。子弹击中了马特·斯卡西的头部。

Yeah. They got in a fight, were struggling over a gun. The gun went off. Well, was about to say killed. It struck Matt Matt Scassy in the head.

他的身体倒在地上抽搐着，然后达林顿朝他开枪。他说，我不想要这家伙活着，原话是‘不想让这家伙受苦’，确保杀死了他，之后又回去拿了更多子弹，再次开枪。结果他被控谋杀。但陪审团认为，由于检方无法证明枪走火时他就有杀人意图，所以不能判他有罪。

His body's on the ground twitching around and stuff, and Darrington shoots him. He's like, I don't want this guy, and the quote was, didn't want the bloke suffering, and killed him for sure, then went back and got more bullets, and then shot him again, and he was charged with murder. And the the jury said, you know, we can't find him guilty because the prosecution didn't kill that you intended to kill him when the gun went off to begin with.

没错。但他们判定他犯有谋杀未遂，因为他明确表现出认为梅茨·加西还活着，并开枪意图致死——无论这个行为本意多么仁慈。最终他因此被定罪为谋杀未遂。

Right. But they did find him guilty of attempted murder because he demonstrated quite clearly that he thought Metz Gassi was still alive and shot him to kill him, however merciful the act was supposed to be. Right. And he got convicted of attempted murder for that one.

哇。

Wow.

如果他当时没有试图‘仁慈’地结束曼斯·卡西的痛苦，而最初那枪已经致命的话，他根本不会被判任何罪名。

Had he not had he not tried to be merciful and put Mance Kassi out of his misery and just the the initial shot had killed him, he wouldn't he wouldn't have been convicted of anything at all.

是啊。那样的话可能就是斗殴，甚至算自卫。谁知道他们会怎么定性呢？

Yeah. It would have been, I guess, a struggle, maybe even self defense. Who knows how they would have framed it?

确实。所以这个案例的教训就是：如果某人可能已经死亡，赶紧叫救护车。

Yeah. For sure. So I guess that's the that's the takeaway here. If somebody is potentially already dead, call an ambulance.

是啊。这类情节我觉得在电影里很常见。感觉它经常被用来证明你对组织的忠诚。比如有人会说，我干掉了他们大部分人。你得收尾，这样我们俩就都脱不了干系之类的。

Yeah. This kind of thing I feel like is in movies a lot. I feel like it often comes up as, like, to prove your loyalty to the organization. Like, someone's in there like, I killed most of them. You gotta finish them off, so we're both liable or whatever.

哦，没错。

Oh, yeah.

我觉得在电影里经常看到这种桥段。

I see that a lot in movies, I feel like.

当然。简短些。我猜这就结束了。

Sure. Short stuff. I I guess it's out.

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