谁准备好迎接循环经济了

这里是I Heart播客。

This is an I Heart podcast.

患有罕见自身免疫性疾病的生活充满挑战，但也展现出非凡的坚韧，尤其是对于重症肌无力（MG）和慢性炎症性脱髓鞘性多发性神经病（CIDP）患者而言。在社群中找到力量至关重要。《重症自身免疫疾病生活》由Ruby Studio与Argenx联合制作，探索人们在意想不到之处发现的力量。在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或任何播客平台收听这些未被讲述的故事。Capital One银行助您钱包更鼓，支票账户免手续费、无最低余额要求，且无透支费。

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问问Capital One银行小哥就知道了——他总爱聊这个（当然是褒义）。他还会告诉你这也是他最爱的播客。谢了，银行小哥。你的钱包里有什么？

Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet?

条款适用。详情见capital1.com/bank。Capital One NA，FDIC成员。

Terms apply. See capital1.com/bank. Capital One NA, member FDIC.

欢迎收听《你应该知道的事》，iHeartRadio出品。

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

大家好，欢迎收听播客。我是Josh，这位是Chuck。Jerry待会儿也会来。不过现在只有Josh和Chuck陪你。但说真的，在《你应该知道的事》里还需要什么呢？

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck. And Jerry will be here eventually. But for now, all you got is Josh and Chuck. But really, what more do you need on stuff you should know?

没错。在我们的世界里，大概两三分钟后Jerry就会突然出现说：嘿伙计们我来了，抱歉迟到了。

Yeah. In our world, in about two or three minutes, Jerry will just come in and go, hey. I'm here, guys. Sorry I'm late.

我觉得她已经学会不这么做了。她会先默默静音待一会儿。真的吗？是啊，她有阵子没这样了。

I feel like she's learned not to to do that. She'll just sit there on mute for a while. Really? Yeah. She hasn't done it in a little while.

她真是洗心革面了。

She's really turned over a new leaf.

好吧。

Alright.

走着瞧吧。走着瞧。如果她真来了，我们得保留这段。

We'll see. We'll see. We should leave it in if she does come in.

对，我们应该...我们会和大家分享的。只不过他们只能听到我们这边的声音，所以他们只会听到'天啊，杰瑞'之类的。

Yeah. We should We'll do share with everybody. Except they'll they'll just hear our end, so all they'll hear is, oh, God, Jerry.

嗯，我觉得如果她在河边那段插话，我们可以把它剪辑进最终版

Well, I think if she chimes in on Riverside, we could edit that into the final

这会是个有趣的测试。

This will be a fun test.

确实。这也算是给大家小小揭秘了我们是怎么...

It will be. And there's a little peek behind the curtains for everybody of how we do our

草率行事。

thing. Slapdash.

没错。顺便嘲笑杰瑞。

That's right. While making fun of Jerry.

是啊。嘿，我刚发现我们没上《时代》杂志史上百大播客榜单。

Yeah. Hey. I just noticed we were not on the list of Time Magazine's 100 greatest podcast of all time.

什么？真的假的？

What? Really?

真的。好笑的是我看到榜单时，第一反应是——前100名？那名额挺多的啊。按理说我们怎么也该进前100吧。

Yeah. Was funny because I saw that list, and my first instinct was, I mean, top 100? Like That's a lot. Like, surely surely we cracked the top 100.

说白了，他们可能压根没听说过我们。

They probably haven't heard of us is what it is.

不，我们不在名单上。说真的，咱们那些老同事—— Radiolab、99% Invisible、Ira、Maren，过去十八年所有知名播客都在榜上，基本上就缺了我们。

No. We're not on there. Literally, of our old time colleagues Oh, you name it. Radiolab, ninety nine percent Invisible, Ira, Maren, like, every podcast of note of the past eighteen years except for us, basically.

哇，这很'你们应该知道的事'风格，对吧？

Wow. That's very stuff you should know, isn't it?

确实，非常贴切。

It is. It is very fitting.

不过我们不会让这种事影响情绪，对吧？

We don't let that stuff get to us, though, do we?

当然。《时代》杂志算什么？

No. Time magazine. Who cares?

就是，我都不知道他们还搞这种愚蠢的播客榜单。

Yeah. I didn't even know they put out a stupid podcast list.

等着瞧吧，我们马上要当选年度人物了。

Yeah. Watch we're gonna be men of the year now.

封面标题大概会写：天啊，我们居然忘了他们。

The headline on the cover will be like, oh gosh, we forgot.

你会成为年度人物，但我当不了导师，剧情肯定是这样发展的。

Well, You'll be men of the year, but I won't be a mentor. That's how it'll work.

这就是时间的作用。它们通过分裂来摆弄人际关系。

That's what time does. They tinker with relationships by dividing.

没错。说到摆弄

That's right. Speaking of tinkering

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为我们都可以对全球经济稍加调整，或许能使其更循环。你在说什么？乔什，我说的是我们手头的话题。嗯。讨论循环经济，我的朋友。

I think we could all tinker with our worldwide economy a bit and perhaps make it more circular. What are you talking about? Well, Josh, I'm talking about our topic at hand. Mhmm. Talking about circular economy, my friend.

哦，我没反应过来这个梗。嗯。那你之前听说过这个吗？

Oh, I got I didn't get the reference. Mhmm. So have you heard of this before?

听说过。

Yeah.

好的。是的，我偶然了解过。据我所知，这个概念从二月份才开始兴起。我没发现它是以这种确切形式早已存在，然后被发掘推广的。

Okay. Yeah. I I ran across it. I as far as I know, it's fairly new from the February. I didn't see that it was an idea that was laying around already in this exact form and then was picked up and and promoted.

所以很可能是艾伦·麦克阿瑟基金会首创的。

So it's possible it was generally created by the Ellen MacArthur Foundation.

向艾伦·麦克阿瑟致敬。

Hats off to Ellen MacArthur.

是啊。据我所知，艾伦·麦克阿瑟至今仍保持着单人帆船环球最快纪录。26,000英里的环球航行——循环的。七十二天完成。没错。

Yeah. So Ellen MacArthur, as far as I know, still holds the world record for the fastest solo sail trip around the entire world. 26,000 miles of circumnavigation Circular. In seventy two days. Yeah.

她热爱圆形。显然在她的旅程中，我读到相关报道，听起来简直疯狂。顺便一提，每次读到环球航海的故事，我总会想到史上最棒的纪录片之一《深水》，讲述唐纳德·克劳赫斯特的故事。我相信你看过，我们之前讨论过。

She loves circles. And apparently on her trip, I was reading about it, it sounds just insane. And by the way, whenever I read of like world sailing trips, I can't help but think of one of the best documentaries of all time, Deepwater, about Donald Crowhurst. I believe you've seen it before. I know we've talked about it.

哦，如果你还没看过，我其实有点羡慕你。

Oh, if you haven't seen it, actually envy you.

是那个潜水员吗？

Is this the guy who the diver?

不是。他是名水手。大约在1975年有个环球航海比赛。

Nope. He's a sailor. There was about a, like, a nineteen seventy five world sailing competition.

那为什么叫深水如果他没在深水里？

So he was why is it deep water if he wasn't deep in the water?

因为他在深水海域上航行。

Because he's he's sailing over deep water.

哦，在深水之上。他们应该叫它

Oh, over deep water. They should call

《深水之上》。

it over deep water.

你 你

You you

应该叫《深水之上航行》。

should Sailing over deep water.

其实你应该——我会等。我们先暂停录制去看吧。它真的那么精彩。

You should actually I'll wait. Let's just pause recording and go watch it. It's that good.

我会去了解一下。最近我我一直在沉迷纪录片，所以我一定会——我现在状态正佳。

I'll look into that. I've I've been on a documentary kick lately, so I'll I'll I'll definitely I'm I'm ripe.

《时代》杂志很可能会把这部列入史上百大纪录片。是的。她在环球航行期间，有了大量时间思考，目睹了许多废弃物和糟糕现象，意识到存在更好的方式。很多人也想过'肯定有更好的方法'。她提出的核心理念就是循环经济。嗯。

This is Time would put this one on their top 100 documentaries of all time, probably. Yeah. So, yeah, so while she was sailing around the world, she just started she had, I guess, lot of time to think and saw a lot of waste and junk and terrible stuff and realized that there's a better way, and a lot of people have thought, like, okay, there's a better way to do this, there has to be. And what she promotes, what she's kind of come up with is this idea of a circular economy. Mhmm.

简单来说，就是经济系统的输出废物被重新作为输入原料。对，本质上转化为原材料。人们会说'哦，回收利用'，这确实是重要部分。

And in a very short, back of the envelope sketch of it, the outputs, the waste of the economy get reused as inputs. Yeah. As basically turned into raw materials. And people say, oh, recycling. That's a big part of it.

没错。但在循环经济视角下，我们美化了回收——觉得那是最佳方案。实际上那是最不理想的选择，还有很多更好的替代方式。

Yeah. But as far as the circular economy is concerned, we idealize recycling. Like, we're like, that's the best you can do. They're like, that's actually the least desirable out of all of them. There's a bunch of other stuff we can do instead.

所以循环经济。

So circular economy.

对，某种程度上这与'减量、重复使用、循环利用'的理念一致。

Yeah. I mean, sort of aligns with the the whole reduce, reuse, recycle ethos.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我觉得可以从现行模式——线性经济开始解释会更清楚。嗯。这是谁帮我们梳理的？戴夫吗？

I think that we could best explain it by maybe starting with what we generally have now, which is linear economy. Mhmm. And that's who helped us with this? Dave?

对，戴夫帮了我们。

Yeah. Dave helped us.

是的，这简直是在打戴夫的脸。但戴夫提出了这个概念——虽然这个词不是他发明的——即一种‘获取、制造、废弃’的经济体系：你获取资源，比如棉花或其他原材料，将其加工成产品卖给人们，然后这东西可能很快磨损，被扔掉，最终填埋。这简直是，如果你关心地球、人类、世界、动物和自然，这就是你能想象到的最糟糕的情况。

Yeah. It it smacks up Dave. But Dave calls it, and Dave didn't invent this term, but it's a take, make, waste economy system where you take resources and, you know, whatever, like cotton or any kind of raw material. You make something into that to a product to sell to people, and then that thing maybe generally quickly wears out, and you throw it away, and it goes into a landfill. It's very, I mean, it's kind of the worst possible scenario you could ask for if you care about planet Earth and people and the world and animals and nature.

之所以称它为线性，是因为它是单向的。你获取某物，制造某物，然后那东西耗尽，你就把它扔进填埋场。

And it's linear because it goes in one way. You you you have something, you make something, and then that thing wears out, and you throw it in the landfill.

没错。你种棉花，把它变成汽车，把车开进填埋场，在它坠崖前跳车。这就是所有人的做法。

Yeah. You take the you take the cotton that you grow, you make it into a car, you drive the car into a landfill, and jump out right before it goes over the cliff. That's what everybody does.

正是如此。

That's right.

你还漏了‘坐等钱财滚滚而来’，因为这才是实施循环经济的最大挑战之一。我们自工业革命以来建立的线性经济是台赚钱机器。当你坐着细数它产生的浪费、污染和不公平时，批评很容易。但你也得承认，这些财富资助了很多科学研究，改善了许多生活条件。即使美国的穷人，相比其他国家的穷人，生活也优越得多。富裕国家确实通过线性经济获益良多。

So you left out kick back and watch the money roll in because that's ultimately what the biggest challenge to implementing a circular economy is, one of the biggest ones. Yeah. Is that the linear economy that we have set up that's been around since the industrial revolution is a money making machine, and it's easy to criticize when you sit there and look at all of the terrible waste and pollution and in inequality that's been generated from it. You can also say, yeah, this wealth has funded a lot of science, it's improved a lot of living conditions, even the poorest people in America are living high on the hog compared to the poorest people in other nations. Like, the wealthy nations have really done well for themselves with the linear economy.

这同样是人们不愿转向新模式的重要原因。

Again, that's a big reason why there's a lot of reticence to transition to something different.

确实如此。有些行业...我在想找个词来形容——不是金星奖章，而是相反的标志，比如‘粪饼勋章’之类的。

Yeah, for sure. There are some, you know, notable I'm trying to think of a a term we could come up with that labels instead of a gold star, like an industry that gets the opposite of that. Like a a turd pin or something that you wear.

我极度厌恶这个词。不过...是的，这个比喻非常贴切。

I hate that word so much. Turd. But yes, that would work very well.

知道‘turd’这个词更糟心的是什么吗？是它的拼写：t-u-r-d。

Do you know what makes turd worse? Is that it's spelled t u r d.

没错。这确实让它更恶心了。这个词从里到外都...太糟糕了。

Yes. That definitely does make it worse. Everything about that word is Yeah. So bad.

没错。完全同意。简直龟速（指问题严重）。四个最糟糕的领域分别是食品、电子产品、消费品和建筑业。嗯。

Yeah. Totally. Turtly. So the four sectors that are sort of the worst are food, electronics, consumer goods, and construction. Mhmm.

食品行业显然如此，我们稍后会具体讨论，但总体而言这是个相当糟糕的领域。我们之前讨论过食物浪费问题。但这不仅包括超市餐厅丢弃的食品，还包括许多地方仍在使用一次性塑料袋。人们甚至会要求'双层打包，三层打包'。

Food, obviously, and we're gonna get into these more specifically as we go on, but generally speaking, food is a pretty terrible sector. We've talked about food waste before. But it's not just the food waste that's like tossed by grocery stores and restaurants and stuff like that. But it's also, you know, a lot of places still are just using those single use bags. And people are like, sure, double bag it, triple bag it.

我可不想让牙膏从袋子里漏出来掉在停车场。还有所有那些包装材料。我们之前以各种形式讨论过这些问题——不可持续的农业种植、电子产品...电子回收简直让我无从吐槽，那些根本无法维修或没人愿意修理的电子产品。

I don't want my tube of toothpaste to fall through that thing into the parking lot. And then all the packaging that goes into it. And we've, you know, again, we've covered all this stuff in various forms here and there. Unsustainable farming, electronics, don't even get me started on electronics recycling, and electronics that are basically impossible to repair or get repaired.

它们本来就是被设计成这样的。我们做过整期节目讨论计划性报废问题。

Well, they're designed that way. We did an entire episode on that, planned obsolescence.

这几乎是最让我愤怒的事了。

And Nothing gets me more mad almost.

是啊。当企业故意设计短命产品时——比如把传感器或电子元件放在高热部件旁边加速老化——就是让你用坏后扔掉再买新的。就像你说的电子产品问题，服装行业也一样。廉价买来穿几次就扔。我们稍后会详谈，但我读到服装行业的资料时简直瞠目结舌。

Yeah. When when a company purposefully designs a, a product to break in a short amount of time, like, they'll put some sort of sensor or electrical component next to something that generates a lot of heat so that it degrades faster. Like, it's designed to break for you to throw away and then go buy another one. That's a big problem, yeah, like you said with electronics, but clothing is another one It's it's designed to just be worn, you buy it cheaply, you wear it for a little bit, you throw it away. And we'll like you said, we'll talk more about this stuff later, but my eyes started popping out when I was reading about clothing.

服装业绝对算一个。还有建筑业消耗大量资源，主要是建材。我们住的是百年老宅，这些年一直在翻修——先是自己动手，后来请承包商。

Yeah. That's one for sure. And then construction. A lot of resources used in construction, and, you know, basically, materials. Anytime we've done any sort of, like, renovation project, because, you know, we live in, like, a 100 year old house, so we instead of moving, we kind of stayed and fixed it up over the years at first by ourselves and then with, you know, the help of contractors and such.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你也经历过这种工程，当建筑垃圾车来时，我们拼命想办法转赠物品：'把这些百年老砖放在人行道边吧，总会有人要的'。

And as you know, you've been through stuff like that. It's like when that construction dumpster pulls up, we do everything we can. We fight tooth and nail to give stuff away like, hey, can you put all these awesome 100 year old bricks out by the sidewalk? Someone will take them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且，你知道，他们最终会默许的。他们讨厌和我们打交道，因为他们只想把那玩意儿扔进垃圾箱。但我们设法处理掉了——现在正经历一个小插曲，我有扇超棒的纱门。他们居然要把这扇很好的纱门扔掉，那可是质量上乘的。

And, you know, they they will acquiesce. You know they hate dealing with us, because they just wanna throw that stuff in the dumpster. But we've managed to get rid of a you know, we're going through a little thing now, and I had this really awesome screen door. And they were literally throwing this really nice screen door. It was like a good one.

那可不是40美元的廉价纱门。

It wasn't just like a $40 screen door.

难道是普拉达牌的纱门？

It was like a Prada screen door?

不，我觉得是古驰的。开玩笑的。其实是来自一个专为工匠住宅定制的公司，算是高档纱门。

No. This was Gucci, I think. No. But it was like a from a, like, a craftsman company for craftsman homes. It was sort of like an upscale screen door.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们正要把它扔进垃圾桶时，我差点扑过去拦住那人。我把门放在外面，不到一小时就被人拿走了。

And they were throwing it in the trash and almost tackled the guy. And I put that thing out there, and it it was gone in an hour, you know? And it just Oh,

我敢打赌。

I bet.

这种小事让我觉得，天啊，至少我从填埋场救回了一件小东西。

Just little things like that make me feel like, oh god. Thank I guess I saved one little thing from the landfill.

干得漂亮，老兄。

Nice work, man.

不是要邀功，但你懂我意思。就是...

Not for a pat on back, but you know what I mean. It just Well,

不配拥有。

can't deserve it.

这简直是在灼烧我们的良知——当他们连旧木材之类的东西都随意丢弃时。你知道，我会尽量把这些东西带到营地去烧掉。

It it just kills our conscience is just burning up when they're throwing away even old wood and stuff, you know. I try to take that stuff to the camp and burn it.

知道我在和承包商打交道时发现了什么吗？如果你想让他们做事，必须用权威的语气直接告诉他们，最后还要加一句‘赶快赶快’。

You know what I found when you're dealing with contractors and subcontractors? If you want them to do something, you have to tell them directly in in kind of an authoritative voice, and then finish with chop chop.

没错。而且还得站在那儿盯着，因为只要你一离开，他们就会敷衍了事。

Yeah. And also, stand there and watch them because as soon as you leave, they'll just say, like, whatever, dude.

是啊，绝对是这样。好的。

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. For sure. Okay.

所以正在收听的各位，听完这些恐怕手掌根部都掐出月牙形的血指甲印了吧。先平复一下，放松点，因为现在我们要介绍一个替代方案——闭环模式。不是线性的，是循环的，循环经济。它基本上就是逐个审视线性经济的所有弊端并加以修正。而且，怎么说呢，还有很多待完善的空间。

So you guys out there listening probably have bloody crescent shaped fingernail marks on the heel of your palms from hearing all this stuff. So just settle down, relax a little bit, because now we're gonna tell you a little bit about an alternative to that, the closed loop model. Not linear, circular, the circular economy. And it basically says, it takes a look at everything wrong with the linear economy and fixes it one by one. And it's, like, there's a lot left open.

这并不是说这是个完美无缺、能解决所有问题且不会引发新问题的经济模型。更多是我们还处于最概念化的阶段

It's not like this is just a a, like, a completely ready to go economic model that's going to solve every single problem and it's not gonna create any other problems. It's more we're at the most conceptual stage

对。

Yeah.

现在向人们展示这个理念，是想说：嘿，还有另一种方式，这里是一些可能的实现途径。

That is being presented to people to say, hey, there's another way, and here are some of the ways we can do it.

没错。这简直和我们刚才说的完全相反。不是计划性淘汰，而是计划性持久。就像：嘿，我们来做些能长久使用的东西吧。这是第一点。

Yeah. And it's sort of just the opposite of everything we were just saying. Instead of planned obsolescence, there's a planned permanent. It's like, hey, let's make something that lasts for a long time. That's one.

制造可维修的产品。这是另一个要点。

Make something that's repairable. That's another.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们稍后会讨论一个非常精妙的概念——与其拥有物品，不如共享、租赁、按使用付费。比如将所有权拆分。即使是最精良的制品也终有寿命尽头，这时可以拆解其部件，理想情况下大部分甚至全部材料都能回收或改造成新物品。

One really kind of brilliant thing that we're gonna talk about later is that this idea of instead of owning something like sharing stuff, renting things, sharing things, paying for the use of things that you don't own. Right. Like, you know, splitting that up. And then if something finally does reach the end of its life, because not everything will last forever, even the most well made thing, Those components then you can take down, and hopefully, most, if not all of that can be recycled or remade into something else.

对。值得注意的是，这里并不强调减少消费。我几乎没看到相关讨论。没人说'你不能继续发展'，只是要求你创造的产品必须经久耐用得多。

Yeah. And if you'll notice, reduction of consumption isn't an emphasis of this. I didn't see that talked about much at all. So no one's saying like, hey, you can't keep growing. It's just that the stuff that you're creating needs to last much, much longer.

没错。最佳策略是让产品尽可能贴近消费者。比如锤子——谁都知道用两次就会坏。

Yeah. And the greatest thing you can do is to keep it as close to the consumer as possible. Right? So let's say you have a hammer. Everybody knows a hammer breaks like the second time you ever use it.

你会在早晨挥锤吗？

Would you hammer in the morning?

嗯...我更习惯傍晚。

Mhmm. More the evening for me.

好吧。

Okay.

但我愿意在任何地方挥锤。

But I would do it all over the land.

明白了。

Alright.

所以当你拿起一把锤子时，我之前开玩笑说它会坏掉，但如果你有一把不常用的锤子，最好的处理方式是把它送给更频繁使用它的人，而不是直接扔掉。这个例子可能不太恰当，我知道人们一般不会真的丢弃锤子。但保持物品的重复使用，尽量减少资源投入才是最理想的。如果需要更多投入——比如拆解、运输、重组、翻新——即使这仍属于现行线性经济模式中较好的做法，但已经是下下之选了。就像回收利用那样。

So when you take a hammer, I was kidding about it breaking, but but if you have a hammer and you you don't use it a lot, the best you could do is give it to somebody else who is gonna use it more, rather than throw the hammer away. That's a terrible example. I know people don't really throw hammers away, but keeping it reused so that there's no inputs or very little inputs, that's the ideal. The more inputs necessary, taking it apart, transporting it somewhere, putting it back together, refurbishing it, that is the least desirable even though that's still within this scope that we currently have in the linear model that that's like the best you can do. The the, you know, like recycling.

回收是你最不愿意选择的方式。

Recycling is the last thing you wanna do.

没错。而且锤子这个例子并不差，老兄，我敢说99%的人如果锤柄断了——假设是木柄锤子——他们就直接扔进垃圾桶了。

Yeah. And hammer's not the worst idea, my friend, because I'd I'd say 99 of the people out there, if their hammer handle breaks, let's say you have a wooden hammer handle and that breaks, people just throw it in the trash.

嗯。

Mhmm.

其实完全可以修复。我最爱看几个Instagram账号，那些人会现场演示修复这类日常物品。看着本该被丢弃的东西重获新生特别治愈。他们只需要找块新木头，把旧柄彻底取出（嗯），然后照着断柄的形状打磨，就能让锤子重焕新生。

And you can fix that. One of my favorite things to do is I follow a few Instagram accounts where people fix things in front of your face like that. Just simple everyday things. And it's incredibly rewarding to see someone take something that would normally be in the trash, and they're like, all you need to do is get another piece of wood, get that other piece of wood fully out of there Mhmm. And and shape it like the broken piece, and then you've got another hammer.

具体怎么照着断柄形状打磨？需要哪些工具？

How do you shape it like the broken piece? What what tools do you need for that?

这些人毕竟是专业匠人，可能有车床之类的设备（嗯）。但其实不必太讲究——哥们儿，我敢打赌就算工具和技术有限，只要真想修，我绝对能让断柄锤子重获新生。

Well, I mean, these people do this for a living, so they may have a lathe or something. Mhmm. But, like, it doesn't even have to be pretty. I could I bet you you give me a broken hammer, buddy. With my limited tools and skills, I could make that hammer new again if I really wanted to.

好，那我发起挑战：请《Stuff You Should Know》的听众把断柄锤子寄给查克，他将自掏腰包免费修好每一把并寄回。

Okay. Here here's a challenge. I challenge all Stuff You Should Know listeners to mail Chuck your broken hammers and he will fix every single one of them for you for free and mail them back out of his own pocket.

没错！收件地址是：全美百大播客主播收，电话123...我们要不要先休息下？

That's right. Send it to top 100 podcaster at +1 23 Should we take a break?

好啊，休息会儿。

Yeah. Let's take a break.

好的。我们马上回来。

Alright. We'll be right back.

没有什么比沉浸在奢华之中更美妙了。在washablesofas.com，您会发现Anabay沙发，它以实惠的价格将极致舒适与设计完美结合。更棒的是，这是唯一一款从上到下均可机洗的沙发，起价仅699美元。防污性能面料沙发套和云朵般柔软的框架被可直接机洗，非常适合有孩子、宠物或喜欢易于清洁、一尘不染沙发的人。模块化设计和可更换沙发套让您能根据空间和风格定制专属沙发。

There's nothing like sinking into luxury. At washablesofas.com, you'll find the Anabay sofa, which combines ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. And get this, it's the only sofa that's fully machine washable from top to bottom, starting at only $699. The stain resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash, perfect for anyone with kids, pets, or anyone who loves an easy to clean, spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slip covers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style.

无论您需要单椅、情侣沙发还是豪华大转角，Anabay都能满足。访问washablesofas.com升级您的家居。现在全场商品最高可享6折优惠，并提供30天退款保证。立即登录washablesofas.com选购，为生活增添一丝'哦'。

Whether you need a single chair, loveseat, or a luxuriously large sectional, Anabay has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Right now, you can shop up to 60% off store wide with a thirty day money back guarantee. Shop now at washablesofas.com. Add a little Oh.

的惊喜。优惠可能随时变更，且适用特定限制条款。

To your life. Offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply. You

大家知道吗，夏天即将结束，不得不说，回归更规律、更具秋季特色的日常生活会让人感觉很好。

know, everybody, summer's winding down, and, it's gonna be nice to get back into a a regular, more fall like routine, I have to say.

没错。而帮助自己从夏季过渡到秋季的方法之一就是装扮您的住所，在这方面最好的选择就是Wayfair，查克。

That's right. And one of the things you can do to help yourself move from summer to fall is to spruce up your place, and the best place to do that is with Wayfair, Chuck.

说得对。从床上用品到全屋收纳解决方案，Wayfair是您的一站式商店，因为您可以用更少的钱通过书桌、书架、办公椅来焕新工作空间。而且，收纳对每个人来说都是个问题，

That's right. From bedding and linens to storage solutions for every room in the house, Wayfair is your one stop shop because you can refresh that workspace with desks, bookcases, office chairs for way less money. And, hey, storage is an issue for just about everybody, and

您可以为每个空间找到合适的收纳方案。

you can get storage for every space.

您可以收纳户外家具、浴室用品，基本上能让一切井井有条。

You can store your outdoor furniture, storage for your bathroom, and just basically get organized.

是的。另外别忘了客厅，他们有座椅、地毯、灯具、休闲毯，基本上所有您需要用来迎接秋天回归的东西。欢迎回来。

Yeah. Plus, don't forget your living room. They've got seating, rugs, lamps, throw blankets, essentially everything you need to say welcome, fall. Welcome back.

所以，花更少的钱就能让你井井有条、焕然一新，回归日常生活。立即访问wayfair.com选购所有家居用品。就是wayfair.com。Wayfair。每一种风格，每一个家。

So get organized, refreshed, and back to routine for way less. Head to wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's wayfair.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home.

迈出你的步伐。如你所行。

Step you. Step as you.

嘿，大家好。我们想和你们聊聊Squarespace。特别是如果你有一个很棒的想法，想在网络上销售，Squarespace让你轻松地在网站上销售内容访问权限。

Hey, everybody. We wanna talk to you about Squarespace. And in particular, if you have a great idea that you wanna sell on the web, well, Squarespace makes it easy to sell access to content on your websites.

没错。你可以开设在线课程、博客、视频、会员制内容。甚至可以通过设置付费墙来赚取经常性收入。只需设定价格，选择是一次性收费还是订阅制访问。

That's right. You can do online courses. You can do blogs, videos, memberships. You can even earn recurring revenue by gating your content behind a paywall. Simply set the price and choose whether to charge a one time fee or a subscription for access.

正是如此。通过集成的SEO工具，你的内容能更快被发现。每个Squarespace网站都经过优化，包含元描述和自动生成的站点地图等，让你在全球搜索引擎结果中更频繁地出现在更多人面前。

That's right. And you can get your content discovered fast with integrated SEO tools. Every Squarespace website is optimized to be indexed with meta descriptions and auto generated sitemap and more, so you show up more often to more people in global search engine results.

只需访问squarespace.com/stuff，你就能获得

Just go to squarespace.com/stuff and you can get

免费试用。当你准备上线时，使用我们的优惠码STUFF（s t u f f），首次购买网站或域名可享9折优惠。

a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use our offer code STUFF, s t u f f, to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain.

好吧。到目前为止，我们说的基本上都是好主意。很少有人会说‘不，我想扔掉我的锤子’。我确实能从扔掉那把坏掉的锤子中获得深深的满足感。

So okay. So far, basically, what we've been saying are all good ideas. Very few people are like, no. I want to throw my hammer away. I get the deep satisfaction throwing that broken hammer away.

大多数人只是不希望他们的锤子坏掉，这又回到了刚才的话题——制造持久耐用的产品，让它们质量更好，嗯，而不是更便宜。但所有这些都需要我们彻底改变对经济、增长以及消费行为的看法。因为我们目前处于线性模式中，这种模式的基础是让你尽可能轻松地购买、使用和丢弃任何产品，无论是薯片、锤子、棉花还是汽车。

Most people just don't want their hammer to break, which again is addressed, like making products planned for permanence, making them just better Mhmm. Rather than cheaper. But all of this stuff, like, is going to take a complete shift in how we view economics, how we view growth, and also how we view consumer behavior. Because we're in a linear model right now, and the basis of the linear model is making it as easy as possible Mhmm. For you to buy and use and throw away, get rid of whatever product it is you're buying, whether it's potato chips, a hammer, a cotton for a car, whatever.

顺便说一句，如果你总是回到这个话题，每次都能说到我心坎里。是的。但你知道，有些事物和公司正在或曾经这样做过。戴夫低头看了看餐桌上的铝罐，说，嘿，这就是个好例子。铝是一种非常可回收的材料。

You're gonna get me every time, by the way, if you keep going back to that well. Yeah. But, you know, there are examples of things and companies that are and have been doing this. You know, Dave looked down on his kitchen table and saw an aluminum can, was like, hey, there's a good example right there. Aluminum is a a very recyclable thing.

是的。幸运的是，它的回收率相当不错。这取决于你所在的地方。比如在巴西，回收率接近100%。在美国，大约是65%。

Yeah. And thankfully, it's it's being recycled in at pretty good rates. It depends on where you are. If, like, you're in Brazil, that's about a 100%. If you're in The USA, about 65%.

但你在美国购买的铝罐平均由约71%的回收材料制成，所以我们在这方面做得还不错。这是个很好的例子。

But the the average aluminum can that you're gonna purchase in The United States is made from about 71% recycled materials, so we're we're doing okay there. That's a good example.

我们做得非常好。这是个极佳的例子。就美国而言，这可能是最突出的例子。人们倾向于回收易拉罐，而且它们很容易回收。我们有一个流程和基础设施，使整个过程相对容易实现，而且因为铝罐既轻便又可压缩，你可以运输大量铝罐，所以将它们从收集点运到实际的回收中心是值得的。

We're doing great. It's a great example. It's the probably the top example as far as The United States goes. People tend to recycle cans and they're easy to recycle. So we have a process and an infrastructure that makes the whole thing fairly low hanging fruit, and because aluminum cans are light enough but also compactable, you can transport a bunch of them, so it's worth your while to transport them from a pickup site to like our actual recycling center.

嗯。它几乎满足了所有条件。尽管如此，即使这么容易，仍有35%的铝罐被直接扔进垃圾桶。

Mhmm. There's it's just checking all of the boxes. Even still though, you see with as easy as is, 35% of those aluminum cans just get thrown away in the trash.

谁在这么做？

Who's doing that?

很多人。我是说很多人这么做。我知道。这有点疯狂，但事实就是如此。这正好说明，消费者的行为需要改变。

A lot of people. Mean a lot people do that. I know. It's it's kinda nuts, but that it is that is the case. So that right there just kinda goes to show you, like, that's where the consumer behavior needs to change.

其他方面基本上已经就绪，可以回收我们所有的铝罐。我们只是没有这么做。所以，这就像是实现循环经济需要调整的一个支柱或例子。让人们在行为上更加深思熟虑。

Everything else is basically in place for us to recycle all of the aluminum cans that we have. We're just not doing it. So that's, like, kinda one pillar or an example of one of the pillars that has to be adapted to go to a circular economy. Making people more thoughtful, I guess.

祝你好运，伙计。

Good luck, buddy.

我知道。我想这可能比其他任何因素都更让这看起来像是个白日梦。我应该说，这是我内心最愤世嫉俗的一面在说话。

I know. I think that's probably more than anything what makes this a pipe dream. I I should say the most cynical side of me says that.

如今要让所有人都认同一个想法基本上是不可能的。

Is getting everybody on board with a single idea these days is not possible, basically.

是啊。因为只要有一个蠢货（嗯哼）把罐子扔进垃圾桶，你们就失去了100%的回收率，然后大家就会说循环经济还有什么意义，又回到线性经济去了。

Yeah. Because all it takes is one schmo Mhmm. To throw his can away in in the trash, and you just lost your 100% recycling status, and then everybody goes, what's the point of a circular economy anyway, and goes back to the linear economy.

没错。但他们可以宣称除了加里之外100%达标。

Yeah. But the stat they could throw out then is a 100% except Gary.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

你

You

懂吗？而且那个破坏者肯定叫加里。

know? And it would be a Gary.

是啊。抱歉了各位加里，你们知道这是事实。

Yeah. I'm sorry, Garys. You know it's true.

对，并非所有加里都坏，但所有坏人都叫加里。

Yeah. Not all Garys are bad, but all bad people are Garys.

这可以印在《你应该知道》T恤上——'不是所有加里'，就这句。好吧。还有些企业案例...我是《创智赢家》真人秀的超级粉丝。

There's a stuff you should know shirt. Not all Garys. Just that's it. Okay. There are also some examples of companies that you know, I'm a big Shark Tank fan of that TV show.

嗯哼。现在有越来越多的小企业参加节目，他们规模小很正常，毕竟是去《创智赢家》寻求初始投资的。但重点是，这些企业都在努力做正确的事。大企业才是难啃的骨头，不过我在节目里见过很多公司会说'听着'...

Mhmm. And it seems like more and more companies are coming through there that are that are small, and obviously, they're small because they're on Shark Tank and looking for initial investments. But Right. They're trying to do the right thing here. Getting corporations on board is the big problem, but I've seen a lot of companies come through Shark Tank where they're like, hey.

提到这个是因为联合利华就是与艾伦·麦克阿瑟基金会合作的企业典范（嗯哼）。他们减少了塑料浪费，虽然销量巨大。比如卖洗涤剂或洗发水时，现在有回收计划——'把空瓶寄回来，我们灌装后返还'，或者提供浓缩产品。类似《创智赢家》里很多公司也在做清洁产品创新，他们说'有更环保的方式'——即便你回收塑料，每天每周大量消耗后扔进回收箱（或更糟，垃圾桶）也不是办法。

And the reason I mentioned this is because Unilever is one of the examples of a corporation that's partnered with the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. Mhmm. They're reducing plastic waste, and they sell a ton of stuff. But like when they're selling detergent and stuff like that, or shampoo, now they have programs where you're like, hey, send in your empty shampoo bottle, and we will fill that thing up and send it back to you, or or get it in concentrate, stuff like that. And there there's a lot of like shark tank companies that are doing similar things, including cleaning products, where they're like, hey, there's a better way to do this, where you're just not even if you you're recycling that plastic, just burning through these things on a daily and weekly basis and tossing it in the recycling, or worse, trash.

确实如此。我认为，创业者创办小企业并专注于可持续、可重复使用等单一领域，这正是大公司开始效仿的方式——他们收购这些小企业以获得创意，并在全公司范围内实施。

For sure. Right. And I think, like, entrepreneurs creating small businesses and focusing on, like, one thing that is sustainable, reusable, whatever, That's how larger corporations start doing that stuff because they buy those smaller corporations for that idea and implement it company wide.

希望如此。

Hopefully.

所以这些人的存在很棒。

So that's great that those people are out there.

或者他们会扼杀它。

Or or they squash it.

是啊，或者扼杀它。天啊。我想告诉大家，我们应该和杰瑞打个招呼。

Yeah. Or they squash it. Yeah. Good lord. I just wanna tell everybody we should say, hi, Jerry.

各位，杰瑞来了。

Jerry's here, everyone.

哦，我搞错了。

Oh. I was I was wrong.

没错。我发现美国境内连一个洗发水灌装站都没有，目前只在印尼、墨西哥、菲律宾和巴基斯坦见过。

Yeah. I saw that there are I did not see a single shampoo refilling station in The US. There I found them in Indonesia, Mexico, Philippines, and Pakistan so far.

其实这样更好，因为省去了邮寄环节。你知道邮寄空瓶子也会产生浪费，对吧？

I mean, that's that's even better because then you're not, you know, mailing stuff. You know? Because that's another type of waste, like just mailing the empty bottles and having that Yeah. Mailed

我同意。反正你本来就要去商店，那些洗发水自助灌装点还挺吸引人的。要是真急用，你甚至可以把头伸到喷嘴下接一点，然后跑回家洗头。

I agree. I mean, you're going to the store already, and they're like they're attractive little shampoo refilling centers. And I guess if you were really hard up, you could go just put your head under the nozzle and and do a little little squirt, and then run home and wash your hair.

是啊。我是说，他们一直用那种五加仑的大水桶装水，这做法由来已久，你知道的，大多数人都这样。

Yeah. I mean, they've been doing that with the the big five gallon jugs of water forever, you know, most Right.

我也想到这个了。

I thought of that too.

没错。这是好事，因为那些桶体积庞大，直接替换并重新灌装才是最合理的做法。

Yeah. That's a that's a good thing, because those things are are huge, and just swapping those out and refilling them just it only makes sense.

对。还有家荷兰公司叫Niaga，这名字又是倒着写的。除非有人告诉你，或者你正穿着Niaga的T恤站在镜子前，否则根本看不出来。

Yep. There's also there's a Dutch company called Niaga, which is, again, backwards. You'd never know that unless someone told you or you happen to be wearing a Niaga t shirt in front of a mirror.

是啊。又是这个词。我觉得你刚才的说法可能会让人困惑。

Yeah. It is the word again. I think just the way you said that might be confusing.

好吧，我懂你意思。确实可能让人困惑。你能想象有个《时代》播客的监听员在打勾，把我们踢出名单吗？

Okay. I got you. Yeah. I'm sure it was confusing. I can't you just hear like a a Time podcast monitor going and like checking some box that keeps us off the list?

嗯哼，就像这样。

Yeah. Like, mhmm.

101号。如果运气好的话。这家荷兰公司瞄准了地毯和床垫，这两样至少在纺织品里——可能所有产品中——都是最糟糕的污染源。

One zero one. So if we're lucky. So this company, they're Dutch, they targeted carpets and mattresses. And those are two of the worst offenders as far as at least as far as textiles go, but maybe as far as all products go. Yeah.

因为它们体积大，几乎无法回收，回收难度极高，而且人们大量丢弃。仅美国每年就扔掉2000万张床垫，欧洲3000万张，我们每年还把约20亿磅地毯填埋处理。地毯回收率只有5%，我甚至不知道哪里能回收地毯。

Because they're big, they're essentially impossible to recycle, they're very, very hard to recycle, and people throw a lot of them away. I think 20,000,000 mattresses are thrown away in The United States alone, 30,000,000 in Europe, and we toss about 2,000,000,000 pounds, yeah, of carpet away every year in The United States into landfills. Only 5% of carpet gets recycled. I couldn't even tell you where you would recycle carpet.

不清楚。有没有叫'地毯回收站'的地方？或许吧，这名字挺合适。对吧？

I don't know. Is there a place called Recarpet? Maybe. That's what it should be called. Right?

或者又是地毯。没错。

Or carpets again. Right.

或者完全反过来。

Or all of that backward.

是的。我是说，他们瞄准这两个目标的另一个原因是，荷兰人民很棒。而且，嘿，如果你住在荷兰，并且想在阿姆斯特丹看我们的现场播客，请告诉我们。

Yeah. I mean, the other reason those two they're targeting those two, a, is because the people of The Netherlands are great. And, hey, if if you live in The Netherlands and you would go see a live podcast of us there in Amsterdam, let us know.

当然。

Sure.

我们就这么说了吧。我们正在欧洲试探市场，所以很乐意听听大家的意见，看看哪里可能有观众。

Let's go ahead and just say that. We're putting out feelers for Europe, so we'd we'd love to hear from people about where we might could get an audience.

当然。

Sure.

这么说可以吗？

Is that okay to say that?

可以。不过我们可能得告诉大家，这不会在两年内实现。

Yeah. We should probably tell everybody it won't be for two years.

对。我们瞄准的是2027年，但明年就会重新上路。嗯。加拿大，我们大举来袭了。

Yeah. We're targeting '27, but we're gonna get back on the road next year. Mhmm. Coming for you, Canada, in a big way.

没错。肯定的。所以你们最好关闭边境。

Yeah. For sure. So you better close the borders.

那个嘛，他们或许会的。希望我们能顺利通过，但愿如此。

That's a little a little well, they might. I hope we'll be welcome to get a pass, I hope.

是啊，还说不准呢。

Yeah. It's up in the air.

但长话短说，他们专门针对这些产品的原因不仅是使用寿命问题，而是这类产品有个专门名称——中等寿命笨重商品。这些东西大约能用十年，里面充满了有害化学物质。因此这些都导致它们成为两大最糟糕的污染源：床垫和地毯，化学物质含量高、使用寿命短、体积还相当庞大。

But long way of saying the reason that they are targeting those specifically is not just the lifespan, but they actually have a name. They're called medium life bulky products. They you know, this stuff lasts about ten years, and they're just full of nasty chemicals. And so all of that leads to them being two of the two of the worst offenders. Mattresses and carpet, full of chemicals, don't last long, and they're fairly large.

没错，尤其是被弄脏的床垫。

Yeah. Especially if they're stained mattresses.

是啊，祝你好运回收那种东西。

Yeah. Yeah. Good luck recycling that.

我看到数据说床垫在垃圾填埋场需要八十年到一百二十年才能降解，其实我觉得这速度还算快的了，但显然还不够快。所以这家公司就说：好吧，我们要用可回收材料来制造这些产品，但更棒的是我们要让床垫的每个部件都可替换。

I saw eighty to a hundred and twenty years to for a mattress to degrade in a landfill, which actually seemed a little fast for me, but, you know, it's still not fast enough. So this this company is like, okay. We're actually gonna make this stuff out of recyclable materials, but even better than that, we're going to make it so that every part of the mattress is replaceable.

想想看。

Imagine that.

或者可维修。

Or repairable.

对。

Yes.

所以假设你遇到这种情况：床垫套被几加仑尿液弄脏了，你需要换个新床垫套。与其扔掉整张床垫等它一百二十年降解，你直接打电话给Niaga说'嗨，再给我发个床垫套'。他们会说'嘿，我们不知道你能从美国直接打电话到荷兰，不过这是新业务，我们马上给您发货'。

So you're like, I got, just a a gallons of urine staining the cover of my mattress. I need a new mattress cover. Rather than throwing out the whole mattress and waiting a hundred and twenty years for it to degrade, you just call up Niaga and you say, hey, send me another mattress cover. And they say, hey, we didn't know that you could call direct from The United States to The Netherlands, but that's new for us. We'll send it to you straight away.

然后他们寄给你，你把它装回去，直到下次发生之前都不会有任何尿液。

And they send it to you, you put it back on, and there's no urine whatsoever until the next time it happens.

没错。但他们会问，魔法词是什么？你得说'bug in'。就像对两岁小孩说话一样。是的。

That's right. But they say, what's the magic word? And you have to go, bug in. Like it's like a two year old. Yeah.

再来一次。

Again.

是的。他们确实会这么做。

Yeah. That's they do actually do that.

这很棒。我们还会关注其他荷兰公司，因为他们似乎在很多方面都做对了。这一切的关键在于设计。如果是线性经济——我们目前就是如此——它的设计方式注定会让产品变得过时，或是变成无法回收的床垫之类。所以必须从设计开始改变。

It's great. And we'll look at other Dutch companies because they they're they're doing the right thing, seems like in a lot of ways. One key to all of this is design. If you have a linear economy, which we do, like we said, it's it's it's It's designed in such a way to to make it, you know, obsolete or just a mattress that can't be recovered or whatever. So you have to start with design.

必须从最基础的概念阶段就开始思考：如何设计一个能永久使用的床垫？然后按这个思路设计，因为这是可行的。

It has to start on the very conceptual phase of like, how could we make a mattress that could last you forever? And then you design it that way because it's possible.

没错。设计不仅适用于产品——虽然这是最简单的切入点，比如思考'如何设计这个产品以适应现有回收体系'或'如何让它可重复使用、可维修'。但我们也需要重新设计回收基础设施，让那些本不可回收的产品更容易被回收。需要投入大量设计工作，但你说得对。

Yeah. And design doesn't just apply to products, although that's the easiest thing to do is to say, okay, how can I design this product to fit into the existing recycling infrastructure or design it to be reusable or repairable? That's the easiest one. We also though need to design our recycling infrastructure to make it easier to recycle products that aren't designed to be recycled. So there's there's a lot of design that has to go, but you're right.

这必须是个有意识的选择。戴夫指出的观点也很重要：浪费同样是有意识的选择。比如当你吃完一小包乐事薯片后就会扔掉它。

Like, it has to be a conscious choice. And Dave points out something I think is important too. Waste is a conscious choice too. Like Mhmm. When when your little, like, mini bag of of Lay's potato chips, when you're done with it, you throw it away.

它的设计初衷就是被丢弃。这是包装设计师做出的决定。他们没做任何使其可回收的努力，而是认定丢弃才是最佳处理方式。尽管你对此深恶痛绝，却别无选择。

It was designed to be thrown away. Like, that was a decision that was made by the package designers. They didn't do anything to try to make it recyclable. They they decided that the best thing for you to do with that package is to throw it away. And as much as you hate it, you have no choice.

你的选择只有买或不买这些乐事薯片。现在有些人开始因为包装问题拒绝购买，所以部分企业开始觉醒。但大多数人还是觉得：'我不想考虑薯片包装问题，眼下有更紧迫的事要处理。如果能让人们不必操心回收问题，那才算真正解决问题。'

Your choice is to buy those those Lay's potato chips or not buy them. And some people are starting to based on the packaging, so people so some companies are starting to wake up. But for the most part, people are like, I don't wanna think about the packaging that my potato chips come in. I have so many more bigger pressing issues right now that that if you can just make it so that the people don't have to think about recycling it, then you're onto something.

是的，百分百确定。

Yeah. A 100%.

我刚才是在说我自己。我不想考虑我该怎么做

And I was talking about myself. I don't wanna think about what I'm supposed to do

关于那个

with the

薯片包装袋的事。我并不是在评判什么，我也把自己算在内。我是说，我自认为比一般人更自觉些，但肯定比不上查克那种程度。

potato chip package. And I'm not being judgy like. I'm including myself in this. Like, I I mean, I I I would like to think I'm more conscientious than, say, the average person, but I'm certainly I'm not at, like, Chuck level.

我也没达到艾米丽的水平。你是了解我的，勉强能跟在她后面。

I'm not like the Emily level. You know me. On her coattails.

没错。

Right.

嗯，我小时候，查尔斯薯片的送货员会定期来。

Well, I mean, when I was a kid, we had the Charles Chips driver come around.

对，我记得这事。

Yeah. I remember that.

我们会把...我是说，如果你到一定年纪可能会记得。以前真的有薯片送货上门服务

And we would give them our I mean, if you're of a certain age, you might remember this. There was a literal potato chip delivery

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

公司。他们叫查尔斯薯片，装在一个大金属罐里。吃完后，薯片配送员会上门回收空罐，同时给你一罐新的。

Company. They were called Charles Chips, and they came in a big metal tin. And you would finish with that tin, and your chip person would come by. And you would give them the tin of empty chips, and they would give you a full tin of chips.

对。我见过他们用袖口擦擦罐子，然后把薯片装进去。

Yeah. They'd reach in with the cuff of their shirt, wipe the tin out, put the chips in the tin sometimes I saw.

没错。当然这仍存在配送卡车等环节的浪费——所以记得保存好邮件。但我们讨论的不是理想化的完美方案，只是说比现在那些堆在垃圾场的小铝箔袋强多了。

Yeah. And obviously, again, there's there's still waste with the delivery truck and stuff, so save the emails. But we're talking about, you know, we're not idealizing it as as perfect. We're just saying, like, it's a better thing than what we're doing now, which is those little foil bags sitting in landfills.

确实。还有个问题是，因为这概念尚在雏形，并非所有问题都能立即解决。比如能源消耗就是重头戏——显然需要更多可再生能源，这毋庸置疑。但关键在于不是所有事都能靠可再生资源完成。

For sure. And, yeah, that's another thing too is is because this is kinda conceptual and not every issue is being tackled right out of the gate with it, like energy use is a big part of it. So they obviously are like, well, we need more renewables. That's kind of a no brainer. But it's important because not everything can be done with with renew with renewable resources.

有些工艺必须依赖化石燃料，有些则需要核能。所以必须设计能捕获并循环利用排放物的发电厂或工业烟囱。

Some stuff just requires fossil fuels. Some stuff, say, requires nuclear. So you have to be able to design those power plants or those industrial smokestacks so that that stuff's being captured and reused as an input somehow.

正是。你说到消费者教育，但企业其实心知肚明——他们故意这么做是有原因的。

Right. Exactly. And, you know, you talked about educating the consumer, but and and it's not educating the the corporation because they know this stuff. They do it on purpose for a reason, like you like you said.

嗯。

Mhmm.

更重要的是企业需要超越终端用户视角，宏观考量产品与地球生态的关系。在保证产品质量的同时，从设计源头降低环境影响，适配回收网络——就像你说的铝循环。戴夫还指出个关键点：这新产品真有必要吗？

But it's more about, like, companies coming along where the end user isn't the single focus. They take a more macro view and say, well, there's something bigger at work with these products we sell, and that's planet Earth and mother nature. And while the consumer is important and we wanna give them a good product, we can start from the beginning and design something that has less of an environmental impact, designed to fit within these recycling networks, you know, aluminum like you were talking about, like, once those are up and running. And and a big one that I didn't even think of that Dave pointed out was like, do you need this new product? Yeah.

消费者真的需要吗？还是说'嘿，改个包装就能冲三季度销量'的把戏？

Does does does the consumer need it? Or is it just like, hey, I think we could boost sales in q three if we released a slightly different version of this dumb same thing?

对。你提到的租赁模式其实能拓展到非常规领域。比如荷兰公司Bundles就提供上门——

Right. So you kind of mentioned something where, like, using something like leasing or renting something can also be applied to things we don't normally think of as as what we lease or rent. Right? Right. One of the again, a Dutch company called Bundles is basically, they they come to your house.

他们会为你送来洗碗机、洗衣机、烘干机或咖啡机，或者你可以将它们全部打包一起购买，因此得名。嗯。而且他们会给你带来一台高端美诺（Miele）可持续制造的电器。嗯。

They'll bring you your dishwasher or your washing machine or your dryer or your coffee maker or you can bundle it all together. Hence, the name. Mhmm. And they're going to bring you a really high end Miele sustainably manufactured appliance. Mhmm.

你家里会有这个东西，除了使用它之外，你不需要动一根手指。这家公司负责送货、安装、定期维护。当你用完了，比如你要搬家不再需要它时，他们会来取走，翻新后送给其他人。这真的很循环经济，而你付费的方式是根据你进行的洗涤次数来计费。我想这就是洗衣的说法，你‘执行’一次洗涤。

And you're going to have this thing in your house, and you don't have to lift a finger other than to use it. This company brings it, they install it, they come by and maintain it. When it's done, when you're done with it, say you're moving and you can't use it anymore, they're gonna come pick it up, they're gonna refurbish it, they're gonna bring it to somebody else. It's like really circular, and the way that you are charged for it is by the number of washes you you you, I guess, carry out. I guess that's how you talk about laundry, you carry out a wash.

这被称为‘按次付费洗衣’模式，其整个基础是WiFi。你的洗衣机连接到他们的服务器，所以他们可以追踪你洗了多少次衣服。据我所知，你会根据洗衣机的使用次数或烘干机的使用量，每月收到账单。

It is called the pay per wash model, and the whole basis of it is WiFi. Like, your washing machine is connected to their servers, so they're tracking how many times you're washing, and then from what I can tell, you get a monthly bill based on the amount of washes you did, the amount of use you did for that or you used for the washer or the dryer or whatever.

你知道我的理解是什么吗？什么？你从来没自己洗过衣服，对吧？

You know what my takeaway here is? What? You've never washed your own clothes, have you?

那不是真的。我其实挺会洗自己的衣服的。我必须学会，因为不知道为什么，我几乎每天都会在T恤上弄到污渍。所以我变得很擅长拯救T恤。

That is not true. I'm actually kinda good at my own clothes. I had to get good because I don't know how I do it, but there's not a day that goes by that I don't get a spot on one of my t shirts. So I've gotten good at salvaging t shirts.

我也是。我也是。我的T恤经常莫名其妙地弄脏，真是难以置信。而且我相信你洗衣服的本事无人能及。

Same. Same. It's incredible how stained my t shirt gets on a regular basis. And I I do believe you you can carry out a wash like nobody's business.

你用Shout吗？我就用这个。我喷一下，效果很好。

Do you use shout? That's what I use. I shout it out. It works really well.

我用，虽然我不喜欢用，但我有个朋友在好莱坞服装部门工作了三十年。嗯。他说Zout才是最好的。

I use and I hate having you use it, but my friend from that has been working in wardrobe departments in Hollywood for thirty years Mhmm. Said Zout is the one.

我没听说过Zout。你为什么不喜欢用它？它是用煤做的吗？

I've not heard of Zout. Why do you hate to use it? Is it made from coal?

它只是那种味道难闻得令人作呕的产品之一。

It's just one of those disgustingly smelly products.

这是石脑油吗？

Is it naphtha?

我不知道。但不是。我是说，他们把它掩盖了。闻起来就像，你知道的，那种非常非常非常浓重的香料味。对。

I don't know. But no. I mean, they they mask it. It smells like, you know, just really, really, really, really heavily fragranced stuff. Yeah.

而且你知道，我们不喜欢那样。所以虽然能去污，但会染色——你得单独洗它。会污染你整桶衣服。我们要不要休息一下？

And, you know, we're not down with that. So it gets out of spot, but it'll it'll taint you gotta wash it by itself. It'll it'll taint your whole load. Should we take a break?

好啊。

Yeah.

行。我们休息一下马上回来。

Alright. We'll take a break and be right back.

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No return shipping or restocking fees, Every penny back. Upgrade now at washable sofas dot com. Offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply. Hey,

大家听好。夏天到了，我们都在追逐些什么——可能是休息、目标或氛围。但无论如何，别让劣质袜子和水泡毁了它。

everybody. Summer's here, and we're all chasing something. A break, a goal, a vibe. Well, whatever it is, let's not let bad socks and blisters ruin it.

没错。说的当然是Bombas袜子，因为无论你的夏日是跑马拉松还是

That's right. We're talking about Bombas, of course, because Bombas make socks that keep up with whatever your summer looks like, whether you're running a marathon or just a few

没错。你知道那种让你跑步时想加速的歌吗？Bamba的运动袜就是这种感觉。它们吸汗排湿，帮你保持凉爽，还能预防水泡。除了跑步，他们还专门为徒步、网球、高尔夫等各种运动设计了不同款式。

Yeah. You know that song that makes you wanna go fast when you're running? Bamba's running socks are like that. They wick sweat, help you keep cool, and they fight blisters. And such as running, they make specialized pairs for hiking, tennis, golf, whatever you're into.

他们有几乎不用磨合的全新白T恤，有适合海滩、后院等各种场合的防水拖鞋，还有如若无物的丝滑吸汗内裤。

They've got fresh white tees you barely have to break in. They've got waterproof slides for the beach, backyard, and everywhere in between, and buttery soft sweat wicking underwear that feels barely there.

对。而且我知道我们都喜欢那些隐形袜，因为它们真的能固定在脚踝上。嗯。

Yeah. And I know we're both fans of those no see him socks because they actually stay put on that ankle. Mhmm.

所以快访问bombas.com，使用优惠码sysk可享首单八折。结账时输入bombas.com和优惠码sysk即可。

So head on over to bombas.com and use code s y s k for 20% off your first purchase. That's b0mbas.com code s ysk at checkout.

患有罕见自身免疫性疾病会面临挑战，但也孕育非凡力量，尤其是重症肌无力（MG）和慢性炎症性脱髓鞘性多发性神经病（CIDP）患者。在病友社群中找到力量至关重要。

Living with a rare autoimmune condition comes with challenges, but also incredible strength, especially for those living with conditions like myasthenia gravis, or MG, and chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, otherwise known as CIDP. Finding empowerment in the community is critical.

没错。在RWBY工作室与Argenx联合制作的《重症自身免疫性疾病生活》最新季中，主持人Martine Hackett探讨了如何重拾自我认同、发现韧性并培养自我倡导能力。

That's right. And in the latest season of Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a RWBY studio production in partnership with Argenx, host Martine Hackett explores what it means to reclaim your identity, discover resilience, and cultivate self advocacy.

从误诊的沮丧到点燃希望的小胜利，每个故事都旨在团结、鼓舞和赋能。这些故事激励我们更好地成为倡导者，用不同视角看待生活。

From the frustration of misdiagnosis to the small victories that fuel hope, every story told is meant to unite, uplift, and empower. And that inspires us all to take one step closer to being a better advocate and seeing life from a different point of view.

所以如果你或亲友患有自身免疫性疾病，请在人生旅途中寻找力量。收听iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或其他平台的播客节目《未诉说的故事：重症自身免疫性疾病生活》。

So if you or a loved one are living with an autoimmune condition, find inspiration along your path. Listen to Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

好了，我们回来了。有件事要提一下，刚才休息得比较仓促——因为大家笑得太厉害了。

Alright. We're back. I did wanna mention one thing. We had to take a quicker break. We were laughing too hard.

说到捆绑服务和电器租赁...嗯...在美国需要做大量教育工作来改变人们对租赁电器的固有印象。

But on bundles and renting appliances Mhmm. You have to do a lot of education in The United States to overcome the perception of what rented appliances means.

是啊，当然。

Yeah. For sure.

因为我们成长的环境，你知道的，可能和X世代一样，那时候如果你买不起东西就会去租用电器。比如租个电视什么的。对吧？你会觉得，天啊，这说明你连买电视的钱都不够。

Because we grew up in in a in you know, it's probably still the same way as Gen Xers where, you know, appliance rental was something like you did if you couldn't afford to buy stuff. Like, you rented your TV or whatever. Right. You're like, oh, man. That means you don't have much money to buy a TV.

但其实有更好的方式，我真希望这里也有这种服务，老兄，因为我们家电器运气实在太背了。这些玩意儿贵得要命，气得我牙痒痒。我超想租用洗衣机和烘干机。

But there's a better way, and I wish they had this here, man, because we've had some really bad appliance luck. And it makes me so mad because this stuff's expensive. I would I would love to rent a washer and dryer.

那我把我的租给你好了。

Well, I'll rent you mine.

我听说它们能经得起时间考验。

I've heard they can carry out a heck of a watch.

没错，拥有自己的洗衣机和烘干机可是美国梦的一部分。

Yeah. It's part of the American dream to own your own washer and dryer.

但我不这么想，老兄。知道吗？我讨厌这种观念。

And Not me, man. You know? I hate those things.

政府想从你手里抢走这些东西，除非从你尸体上跨过去。这绝对是美国文化的核心——你拥有的东西就是你的。

The government can take it from your cold dead hand if if they Yeah. It's definitely it's definitely part of American cultures. You own your stuff. It's yours.

咱们还是聊聊食物吧。

Let's talk about food though.

好啊，食物也是你的财产。在美国，你买下的食物就归你所有。不知道其他国家怎么样，但食物确实是个大问题。

Okay. You own that too. If you buy that, you own it here in The United States. Not sure what it's like in other countries. But food is a huge problem.

我们之前做过一整期关于食物浪费的节目。我记得我们深入讨论过这个问题，令人悲哀的是，这个话题我们已经谈论了几十年，而统计数据依然如故。全球每年有三分之一的食物被丢弃，价值约一万亿美元，还有不计其数的水、肥料和劳动力投入被白白浪费——这不仅意味着金钱或资源的损失，更讽刺的是，这些食物甚至没有流向世界上正在挨饿的最贫困人群。

We've done an entire episode, I think, on food waste before. I know we've talked about it extensively because I remember and what's sad is we've been talking about this for decades now, and the stat remains the same. A third of all of the food grown in the world gets thrown away every year, about a trillion dollars worth, and mindless amounts of water and fertilizer and labor inputs just wasted, not just in the face of all that loss of, like, money or resources, but it doesn't even get diverted to the poorest people in the world who are starving.

确实如此。那期节目很棒，建议大家去听听。不过在我们反复讨论这些老生常谈的话题时，有个关键点可能被忽略了。

Yeah. For sure. And that's a great episode. So I encourage you to go listen to those, but one thing I don't know that we've covered on any of these shows while we were, you know, beating those horses.

什么？老生常谈？换汤不换药？不是吧。

What? Dead horses? Skinning those cats? No.

是营养循环的问题。显然，食物浪费是道德和伦理问题，但我们很少谈及的是它破坏了营养循环。观察自然界，它们的系统是闭环的——森林里自然生长的植物，其养分来自经过地球自然过程处理的土壤。

Is the the nutrient cycle. And, you know, obviously, you know, wasting food is a is a moral problem and ethical problem. But one thing we haven't talked much about is that it disrupts that nutrient cycle. If you look at nature, the system they have is is a closed loop system. They're you know, things grow naturally out in the woods, and it is from soil that is being, you know, if it's just literally out in in the forest, just being treated naturally by the natural processes of of mother earth.

嗯。动物吃掉植物后排出粪便，粪便回归土壤滋养大地。当动物最终老死，它们的尸体会分解并将养分释放回土地。这个系统，恕我直言，堪称精妙绝伦。

Mhmm. And then an animal eats that thing and then poops it out, and that poop goes back into the soil and feeds the soil. That animal falls over dead one day, hopefully a very old age. Then their bodies decompose and release those nutrients back into the earth. And it is a, dare I say, elegant system

没错。

Yeah.

而人类出现后彻底打破了这种循环。

That humans have come along and completely disrupted.

是的。我们把食物纳入了线性经济体系，食物残渣不是被扔在地上自然降解——顺便做个公益提醒：别把苹果核香蕉皮随地乱扔，这并非好事。最佳处理方式是进行某种程度的堆肥处理。

Yeah. We make food part of our linear economy, where the the food waste doesn't just get tossed on the ground and and, you know, biodegrade into it. You don't wanna do that anyway. Just a a annual PSA, don't throw apple cores and banana peels on the ground, because that's not a good thing to do. What's the best thing to do is to compost them to to some degree or some way.

但最糟糕的做法是扔进垃圾桶运往垃圾填埋场，这意味着食物中的养分将脱离地球的营养循环——至少在整个填埋场降解前都无法回归，而那个降解过程漫长到难以想象。此外，我们鲜少回收废弃物再利用，这些资源被简单粗暴地视为终端产物，未能重新进入循环系统。

The worst thing you can do though is to throw them in a trash can and have them taken to the landfill, because then those nutrients that were put into that food have been taken out of the nutrient cycle for earth, at least for however long it's gonna take for that entire landfill to degrade, which I can't even imagine how long it takes an entire landfill to just turn back into nutrients and stuff. So it's disrupted in that way. Then we also disrupt it because we don't tend to collect our waste for reuse. It's an output, pure and simple. We don't we don't put it back into the system.

所以说，我们对待食物的方式从两个层面破坏了营养循环。

So there's two ways that we disrupt the nutrient cycle with our with the way that we treat our food.

没错，完全同意。这可能是一个系列的一部分，比如某天做个播放列表，因为我刚意识到我们已经做过污水回收或污水处理厂的内容。还做过垃圾填埋场的。也许改天我们可以整理一个环保主题的小播放列表。

Yeah. Totally. This may be part of a a suite, like a playlist one day, because I just realized we've done things on sewage recycling or sewage treatment plants. We've done them on landfills. So maybe we should do like a little green playlist one day.

对，我们有个关于永续农业的节目就很棒。嗯，完全同意。等等——

Yeah. We got one on permaculture that was pretty great. Yeah. Totally. Wait.

在继续之前我得说明，那些被称为生物固体的处理过的污水...嗯哼...在某些情况下确实会被再利用。你用过米勒有机肥吗？

Before we move on, I should say some of that, those what are called biosolids treated sewage. Uh-huh. They it does get reused in some cases. Have you ever used milorganite?

为什么我对这个词有印象？我们好像讨论过这个。

Why do I know that word? I think we talked about that.

这是一种神奇肥料，对草坪效果惊人，特别是配合一英寸深的浇灌时。虽然那些小颗粒有气味，但不是你想象的那种臭味——因为它们实际是来自密尔沃基市政污水处理系统的处理过的污水。嗯哼。它能提供氮素补充，是草坪的绝佳肥料。

It's a miracle fertilizer. It does wonders for your grass, especially if you pair it with an inch of water flooding your grass. But it's these little particles and they smell, but not smell the way you would think because they actually are treated sewage from Milwaukee's municipal sewage system. Uh-huh. But they it's like a nitrogen boost for it's fertilizer for your lawn.

效果简直好到离谱，价格便宜，还能循环利用密尔沃基市民产生的废弃物。

It's insane how well it works. It's cheap, and you're reusing waste from the good people of Milwaukee.

哇，这太棒了。

Well, that's great.

而且几乎随处可买，货源充足又容易获取，我强烈推荐。

And you can get it almost anywhere. It's very it's very abundant and easy to get, and I highly recommend it.

我现在家里已经完全没有草坪了。

I'm down to zero grass now.

哦，其实任何植物都能用。如果你有喜氮植物，撒点米勒有机肥就行。

Oh, you could use it on basically any plants. So if you have plants that like nitrogen, can toss a little milorganite on there.

我会转告艾米丽的。我确信她已经知道这件事了。

I'll pass that along to Emily. She I'm sure she knows about it.

寸草不生。你整个草坪或者说整个院子是不是都铺满了高端古董纱门？

Zero grass. Is your entire lawn just or your entire yard just covered with high end antique screen doors?

没错。这造型很别致。

That's right. It's a good look.

我打赌确实如此。不过走在上面肯定会有点晃吧？

I'll bet it is. I'll bet they it's a little wobbly though, right, walking around on it?

还是说

Or are

它们只是摆设？

they just for looking?

不不不，你可以踩上去

No, no, no. You walk on

行吧。

it. Okay.

艾伦·麦克阿瑟基金会正致力于改进这一点，他们投资于循环经济的生物循环体系，将这类问题也纳入其中，堆肥处理是最直观的方式。但有个叫'级联利用'的概念相当惊艳——就是把厨余垃圾转化为其他产品。荷兰有家叫Peel Pioneers的公司专门做这个，因为柑橘类水果的果皮里...

So Ellen MacArthur's foundation is is looking to correct this and making, like basically investing in the biological cycle of the circular economy, like making this a part of it too, and composting is an obvious one. But one of the things that is pretty amazing is called cascading. That is reusing food waste to make other things. And there's a a what? A Dutch company called Peel Pioneers because, you know, in those in in fruit peels like orange and lemon and stuff like that.

嗯。最精华的成分其实都在果皮里，那些柑橘类水果的皮屑

Mhmm. That that's the best stuff is in that peel. The the zest of those things

嗯。

Mhmm.

从那些果皮中提取的精油，那可是宝贝啊。人们却把它们扔掉或堆肥处理，虽然堆肥也不错。但何不利用这些精油来制作其他产品呢？荷兰的Peel Pioneers公司就在做这件事。

And the essential oils that you get from those peels, like, that's the gold, man. And people are throwing that away or composting it, which is okay. But how about taking those essential oils and actually making other products out of them? And that is what Peel Pioneers out of The Netherlands is doing.

没错。很多食品公司都在实践资源梯级利用，但这个例子特别棒。尤其是橙子精油，被广泛用于各种其他产品中。

Yeah. And that's I mean, you can find cascading in a lot of different food companies, but that's a that's a great example. Because those that as orange essential oils in particular are used in a lot of different other products.

确实如此。

So Oh, yeah.

光靠收集橙汁加工厂地上的残渣，就能经营一门相当成功的生意，明白吗？

You can have a pretty successful business just harvesting the the scraps off the floor of an orange juice processor, you know?

是啊。把废料转化为生物燃料也是另一个显而易见的途径。

Yeah. Converting stuff to biofuel is another pretty obvious one.

对。还有厌氧消化技术。我对未来的厌氧消化器寄予厚望——我们只需找到能分解特定物质的微生物，比如这类微生物吃这种塑料，那类微生物分解这种油脂，然后让它们处理各种废弃物，再把代谢产物作为原料循环利用。真希望我们能实现这个未来。

Yeah. And then anaerobic digesters. I have I'm putting a lot of, like, hope on anaerobic digesters in the future where we just figure out the microbes that eat this stuff, or these microbes eat this kind of plastic. These microbes eat this kind of oil, and like just unleash them on all sorts of stuff and then reuse their byproducts as inputs. I really hope we reach that future.

在我看来这才是最极致的环保。

That to me is like the greenest of green.

嗯。我们之前也讨论过这个，记不清是哪期节目了。

Yeah. We've talked about that too. I can't remember what episode.

我也忘了。我们得用那个'你应该知道'的文字记录搜索工具找找看。

I can't either. We'll have to we'll have to use that stuff you should know transcript search tool to find it.

是啊，感觉像是有人在用蠕虫做什么事情。嗯，这难道没让你想起什么吗？

Yeah. I feel like it was like some someone was using worms to do something. Mhmm. Didn't that ring a bell?

可能是个生物燃料应用。

It might have been a biofuel app.

对，也许是吧。

Yeah. Maybe so.

我们会查查看。

We'll look it up.

我们能聊聊时尚吗？

Can we talk about fashion?

好啊，这对我来说太疯狂了。我觉得我们应该做一整期关于快时尚的节目，不过可以先讨论几个重点。

Yeah. This is just crazy to me. I think we should do an entire episode on fast fashion, but we can hit some high points, I think.

没错。快时尚某种程度上是环境噩梦，也是人道主义噩梦，因为这些衣服由血汗工厂里拿着微薄工资的工人生产。它们售价低廉，使用廉价的合成材料，所以各个环节都很糟糕，而且不耐穿。

Yeah. Fast fashion is sort of an environmental nightmare, and a and a humanitarian nightmare, because they're made in sweatshops for very little pay by people, you know, making very little pay. They are sold very cheaply. Cheap synthetic materials are used, so all the inputs are bad. They don't last long.

基本上这就是个环境灾难。我认为时尚产业是第二大水资源消耗行业。嗯，仅次于工厂化养殖对吧？

And it's it's an environmental nightmare, basically. I think the fashion industry is the second largest consumer of water. Mhmm. That has to be behind the factory farming. Right?

是的。

Yeah.

而且时尚产业占全球二氧化碳总排放量的10%。

And it produces 10% the fashion industry produces 10% of the global c o two emissions total.