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这是一个iHeart播客。

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欢迎收听《你应该知道的事》，iHeartRadio出品。

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

大家好，欢迎收听本期播客。我是乔什，这位是查克。

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck.

我是查克。这么快？是啊，你知道的。觉得这样挺应景的。

I'm Chuck. Already? Yeah. You know. Thought it was apropos.

哦，

Oh,

轮到我说话了吗？是的。

it's my turn to talk? Yeah.

哦，说得不错。

Oh, well played.

我不太擅长这个，你也知道。如果你听过这个播客——我知道你听过，因为你是联合主持人之一——你就知道我经常打断你。

I'm not very good at this, as you know. If you have ever listened to the podcast, and I know you have because you're one of the cohosts, you know that I step on you a lot.

没有。

No.

是的。那我继续我现在的结构单元吧。你觉得现在人们有多困惑？

Yep. I'll keep going with my current constructional unit then. How how confused are people do you think right now?

我不知道。可能非常困惑。我的意思是，我们应该说明这一切只是用来演示对话分析的一个小片段。

I don't know. Probably very. I mean, we should say this is all just a bit to sort of demonstrate a conversational analysis.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，现在我们正在演示分析过程。如果有人坐在另一个房间里记录我们谈话的方式。

Well, not we're demonstrating the analysis. If someone was sitting in another room making notes about how we were talking.

像个变态一样。

Like a creep.

没错，那就是会话分析。我们刚才演示的是糟糕的沟通方式。

Yeah, that would be conversational analysis. We were just demonstrating poor communication.

差不多。但对会话分析师来说这简直就是宝库——他们喜欢自称CA。这是个超级超级小众的科学领域。我觉得应该算社会科学，因为它是从社会学分支出来的。但我注意到的一点是，人们总想把它塞进典型社会科学的框架里。

Pretty much. But it would be a bonanza for a conversation analyst, a CA as they like to call themselves. This is a super super niche field of science. I guess it would be a social science because it branched off from sociology. But one of the things that I noticed about it is that people like to try to push it into a typical social science.

对吧？比如非要提出些理论：为什么人们会做你们研究的这些行为？而会话分析说：不，我们不做这个。

Right? Like, come up with some theories. Like, why do people do these things that you guys are studying? And conversation analysis says, no. We're not gonna do that.

相反，我们纯粹专注于观察，发现模式，然后弄清楚这些模式如何预测其他模式，以及所有这些不同模式如何以这种宏大的方式组合成对话。你可能会说：这挺无聊的。你不觉得吗，查克？

Instead, we are purely about observation, noticing patterns, and then figuring out how those patterns predict other patterns and how all these different patterns fit together in this grand way to make up conversation. And you might say, well, that's pretty boring. Wouldn't you, Chuck?

我的意思是，我会让你先说完，然后我再给你我的

I mean, I'll let you finish and then I'll give you my

看法。好吧。你可能会说如果你是查克的话，这相当无聊。它之所以有趣，是因为它揭示了关于我们的一些东西。那种对话是我们非常非常擅长的事情之一，却没有意识到自己在做什么。

take. Okay. You might say it's pretty boring if you were Chuck. The reason why it's interesting is because it reveals something about us. That conversation is one of those things that we're really, really good at without realizing what we're doing.

那种对话是两人或更多人之间惊人的互动，它能完成任务，分享信息，让你能提出论点。基本上，整个人类文明都基于这样一个事实：我们能够几乎毫不费力地交谈，尽管在很多

That conversation is an amazing interaction between two or more people that gets stuff done, that shares information, that you can make a case. Basically, entire human civilization is based on the fact that we're able to converse pretty much effortlessly, even though in a lot

时候，它根本说不通。

of times, it just does not make sense.

是的。我对这件事的态度是，我会听完这一集，然后想把它从我的记忆库里抹掉。因为我是那种最不愿意去想自己如何与人交谈的人。这让我想起了《情到深时》里的那个场景，早期约翰·库萨克有一个闪回，我想是他第一次见到他女朋友的时候。嗯哼。

Yeah. My deal with this is I'll get to this episode, and then I want to wipe it from my memory bank. Because I'm one of those people that the last thing I wanna think about is how I'm conversing with somebody. And it reminds me of that scene in Better Off Dead, when early on John Cusack is having his early a flashback, I think, to his first meeting with his girlfriend. Uh-huh.

在他脑海里，他们在一起，他心想，哦，她刚刚摸了摸鼻子。那是不是我脸上有什么东西？然后她又想，哦，他刚刚摸了摸脸。是不是我脸上有芥末酱

And where they're in his head, and he's like, oh, she just touched her nose. Does that mean I have something on my face? And then she's like, oh, he just touched his face. Do I have mustard on my face

之类的？是的。差不多就是这样

or Yep. Something like

然后不知不觉间，他们就会变得疯狂。这对我来说就是这样——我不想过多思考，比如，我在这种事情上非常随性。我最不愿意想的就是：我说得对吗？我打断别人了吗？我表现得足够感兴趣吗？诸如此类的事情，我的生活中根本没有这些的容身之地。

And then before you know it, they're just going crazy. And that's kinda what this does to me is, I don't wanna think about, like, I'm very much organic when it comes to stuff like this. And the last thing I wanna think about is, did I say that right, or did I interrupt somebody, or did was I did I act interested enough? Like that kind of thing, just I have no place for that in my life.

这很有趣，因为在我说话或别人说话时，我脑子里几乎100%都是这些想法。就像，我忍不住会这样。

That's funny because that is almost a 100% of what goes on in my mind when I'm talking or when someone else is talking. Like, I can't help but do that.

我知道。我理解这一点。我为你感到难过，因为这肯定不好玩。

I know. And I know that. And I feel for you for that because that can't be fun.

确实很累人。我敢打赌。所以，好吧，我选的这个话题可能会毁掉职业生涯，

It's really tiring. I bet. So, okay, this is like potentially career ending topic pick that I made,

不，不，不，我只是，知道，这很有趣，然后我就不想再想它了。

No, no, no, I just, know, it's interesting, and then I just don't wanna ever think about it again.

好吧。那你好好保持这样，我很抱歉——嗯，甚至选择这个话题。让我们深入探讨这一切，因为它本身很有趣，尽管它作为一个学科，其构建方式确实非常奇特。

Okay. Well, do a good job doing that, and I'm sorry for Well, even picking let's dive into all of this, because it is interesting in and of itself, even though it is a really strange discipline in the way that it's set up.

是的。它主要借鉴了几个领域。利比亚帮了我们这个忙，我能看出来，因为它太棒了。嗯。民族方法学，也就是研究人们如何——不仅仅是他们如何理解世界，而是他们如何在与他人互动中做到这一点，以及如何与他人协作。

Yeah. It draws from a couple of fields primarily. Libya helped us with this one, and I can tell because it's awesome. Mhmm. Ethnomethodology, and that is, it's studying how people, not just how they make sense of the world, but how they do it in relation to others, and how they collaborate with others.

对。

Right.

然后是社会语言学，它研究语言，但不仅仅是语言本身，而是语言如何与特定文化相关联，以及在不同文化背景下的运用。主要是在二十世纪七十年代，有三位关键人物和研究者在这方面做出了重要贡献。

And then sociolinguistics, which is language, but not just language, language specifically with like how it relates in specific cultures and the context of different cultures. And there were three key players and researchers doing this in the nineteen seventies mainly

是的。

Yeah.

在加州大学洛杉矶分校。加油，棕熊队。嗯。第一位是社会学家哈维·萨克斯，他似乎是这里的领头人。他是会话分析的奠基人。

At UCLA. Go Bruins. Mhmm. The first one is a sociologist named Harvey Sachs, and he seems to have kinda been the the ringleader here. He's the the grandpappy of conversation analysis.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他六十年代在UCLA开始工作，但真正深入研究这个领域是在七十年代中期。

He started UCLA in the sixties, but really got into this in the mid seventies.

是的。他在七十年代停止了研究，因为这位可怜的家伙在1975年40岁时死于一场车祸。他真正从事这项工作只有十多年，但他搞明白了。他奠定了基础。部分原因是他受益于与其他一些社会学家的密切合作，包括欧文·戈夫曼，他是我们印象管理那一集的主角。

Yeah. And he stopped in the seventies because the poor guy died in a car crash at 40 years old in 1975. And he really only worked on this for just over a decade, but he he figured it out. He laid this down. And part of it was that he benefited from working closely with some other sociologists, including Ervin Goffman, who was the star of our impression management episode.

我想那可能是我第一次听说会话分析的地方。当时他正与欧文·戈夫曼共事。他们研究的并非同一领域，但都源自同一社会学流派——那是个真正的转型期，从研究宗教或政府等大型机构转向更精细、近乎微观的互动层面。戈夫曼研究的是印象管理，而哈维·萨克斯则专注于会话分析。

And I think that might have been where I first heard of conversation analysis. And then, so he was working with Ervin Goffman. They weren't doing the same thing, but they were both coming from that same strain of sociology, which is it was really transitional at the time from studying huge institutions like religion or government and zooming into a much more granular, almost micro interaction level. So that's what Goffman was into with impression management. Harvey Sachs was into that with conversation.

是的。他发表的成果不多，不是那种白皮书或经过同行评审的类型。更像是TED演讲出现前的风格：'嘿，这个是不是很有趣？'

Yeah. He didn't publish a lot of stuff. This wasn't like white paper, peer reviewed kind of stuff. It was mainly like, you know, sort of pre TED talk kind of thing. Like, hey, isn't this interesting?

我把讲座内容公开，有兴趣可以看看。

Here's my lectures, I'm gonna make them available. You can take a gander if you want.

对。

Right.

后来萨克斯在UCLA有个学生叫盖尔·杰斐逊

Then there was a student of Saxx named Gail Jefferson there at UCLA

嗯。

Mhmm.

她本是舞蹈专业，但有份特别的工作——在公共卫生部门当打字员，需要转录狱警敏感度培训课程的录音。由此她对会话中的关键环节'话轮转换'（即轮流发言的机制）产生浓厚兴趣。后续很多研究都聚焦于人们传递'该你说话了'这类暗示的微妙信号。

Who was a dance major, but had this interesting job. She worked as a typist for the Department of Public Health, and part of that included transcribing sensitivity training sessions with prison guards. And so she got really interested in a very kind of key part of conversation with something called turn taking, when you, you know, take turns talking. And a lot of this will be about like the cues that people give to let the other person know, hey, now it's your turn to speak.

嗯。

Mhmm.

或者如何建设性地插话，或建设性地打断，诸如此类。但当她转录这些与狱警的培训课程时，这似乎让她着迷，于是她对此产生了兴趣。她最终开发出了一整套名为杰斐逊转录系统的体系。

Or how to interject constructively, or interrupt constructively, things like that. But that seemed to kind of fascinate her when she was transcribing these training sessions with the prison guards, and so she got interested in that. She ended up developing a whole system called the Jefferson Transcription System.

是的。

Yeah.

我们稍后会稍微讨论一下，基本上就是当你记录人们如何相互交谈时，如何理解所有这些内容。后来，想想还挺有趣的。她研究过笑声。她对笑声非常着迷，研究它如何融入对话，以及一个人如何通过在自己说完某事后轻轻一笑，来暗示对方对自己所说的话发笑。

Which we're gonna talk about a little bit, basically how to kind of make sense of all this stuff when you're, you know, writing down how people are speaking to one another. And then later on, it's kind of interesting, think. She worked with laughter. She was fascinated by laughter, and how that works its way into a conversation, and how someone may cue someone to laugh at something they've even said themselves by giving a small laugh after they've said that thing.

是的。第三位是伊曼纽尔·谢格洛夫，他似乎在哈维·萨克斯去世后接过了接力棒。据我所知，他成为了UCLA会话分析系的主席，而UCLA似乎是会话分析的中心。他还在2010年2月获得了美国社会学协会的终身成就奖。好的。

Yeah. The third guy is Emmanuel Sheglow, and he seems to have kind of taken the reins after Harvey Sachs passed away. That's my He became the chair of the conversation analysis department at UCLA, which seems to be the center of conversation analysis from what I can tell. He also received a lifetime achievement award from the American Sociological Association in 02/2010. Alright.

所以他基本上就是校园里的大人物。

So he was a big man on campus essentially.

是的。他在校园里声名显赫。但他们最初是从比较简单的事情开始的，比如，嘿，我们来研究一下电话通话。就是人们日常的互动。比如，人们在电话开头会说些什么？

Yeah. He was a big brewing on campus. But he they they kinda started out and got, you know, with kind of the simpler side of things, which is like, hey, let's look at telephone calls. And just just sort of everyday interactions with people. Like, what do people say at the beginning of a phone call?

人们在电话结束时会说什么？嗯。这大概是从宏观视角来看非常基础的互动，然后他们才更具体地进行观察，我猜。

What do people say at the end of a phone call? Mhmm. And this is sort of the the bird's eye view of like just very basic interactions before they got more specific with their observations, I guess.

是的。但研究电话通话的一个天才之处在于，两个看不到对方的人如何知道何时该自己说话？他们并不完全知道。但他们不会一直互相抢话，搞得一团糟。这就是我之前提到的。

Yeah. But also, one of the genius things about studying phone calls is how do two people who aren't looking at each other know when it's their turn to talk? They don't exactly. Just And they don't just sit there and talk over one another constantly, and it's just one big jumbled mess. That's what I was talking about earlier.

我们真的很擅长对话。甚至自己都没意识到。

We're really good at conversation. We don't even realize it.

没错。

Yeah.

但首先要做的不仅仅是录制通话，还必须转录它，而盖尔·杰斐逊提出的正是这种转录方法。相当聪明。如果你知道怎么看，从这种采用杰斐逊方法的转录中能获取大量信息。

But one of the first things you have to do then is is not just record the phone call, you have to transcribe it, and that's what Gail Jefferson came up with was that method of transcribing that. It's pretty clever. If you know what you're looking at, you can get a lot of information from this transcription if it's used the the Jefferson method.

是的。这大约出现在七十年代初。那时语言学家诺姆·乔姆斯基在公众视野中挺活跃的，嗯，提出了他的普遍语法理论。而这并不是要反驳那个或类似的东西。

Yeah. And this was like, you know, this came around the early seventies. This is when linguist Noam Chomsky was kind of out there in the public sphere Mhmm. With his idea that there's a universal grammar. And this doesn't, you know, this didn't set out to disprove that or anything like that.

它更像是，让我们看看对话中不同的文化和动态。因为乔姆斯基和他的一些同行认为，对话无法系统分析，太不规则，人与人之间差异太大。但他们觉得，不，我们其实可以找出一些足够一致的原则来做这件事。而且我认为他们做到了。

It was really more of, let's look at different cultures and dynamics within a conversation. Because Chomsky and some of his cohorts was like, you know, conversations are just you can't analyze this kind of stuff systematically. The conversations are too irregular and too different between people. And they were like, no, I think we can actually come up with some principles that are consistent enough to do it. And I think they did.

确实如此。他们最早启动的项目之一，哈维·萨克的首批项目之一，是他与一家精神病院合作，一家急诊精神病院。所以你可以想象，他们的工作相当紧急。他们想弄清楚的一件事是如何让患者在来电时告知姓名。是的。

Totally. And one of the first projects that they started, one of Harvey Sack's first projects was he worked with a psychiatric hospital, an emergency psychiatric hospital. So their work's pretty urgent, you can imagine. And one of the things that they wanted to figure out was how to get patients to give them their name when they called in. Yeah.

因为可以想象，存在一定程度的抵触情绪，尤其是在六十年代中后期。

Because there was a certain amount of reluctance, as you can imagine, especially back in the mid to late sixties.

是的，他们发现当这类机构接听电话时，如果接线员只说'你好'，对方可能也只回'你好'。但如果他们说'您好，我是查尔斯·布莱恩特医生。今天有什么可以为您效劳？需要帮助吗？'

Yeah, they found out when a call was answered at one of these places, they would say, if they said just hello, the person might just say, hello. But if they said, well, hi, this is is doctor Charles Bryant. What can I do for you today? May I help you?

嗯。

Mhmm.

对方就更倾向于回应说'哦，好巧我也叫查尔斯·布莱恩特，我打电话是因为有些侵入性思维之类的问题'

The the people were much more inclined to then respond by saying, oh, well this is also Charles Bryant, and I'm calling because I'm having some some intrusive thoughts or something like that.

没错。然后接待员就会说'明白，我记下了。我们现在知道你的名字了'

Right. And then the receptionist would go, I got you. I got your We know your name now.

是的。有时他们发现人们不会同样报上姓名，这些情况很有意思，这为理解此类互动提供了另一个信息亮点

Yeah. Sometimes they found that people would not respond in kind with their name, and in those cases, it's pretty interesting, and this, you know, kinda provided another little nugget of information for how these things go.

是的。

Yeah.

当他们不说'哦是的，我叫查克，我有侵入性想法'时，他们会引入一种干扰因素。他们会说些类似'或者呢？嗯'这样的话，只是一个小小的转折来改变对话流向。

When they did not say, oh yeah, my name's Chuck, and I'm having, you know, intrusive thoughts, they would sort of introduce like an inter like a a disruptor. They would say something like, or what? Mhmm. And just a small little bump in the road to change the conversational flow.

没错。

Right.

巧妙地暗示'我不想告诉你我的名字'，却不用直接说出来。

Subtly kind of saying like, I don't wanna give you my name without saying, I don't wanna give you my name.

没错。因为对话分析师发现，我们遵循着固定模式，这些预设的对话节奏。所以如果你用一种新规则打断某种对话流程，就会产生双方都心照不宣的新对话走向——这点我之前没想过，但如果你曾对明明听清对方话的人说'什么？'，其实就是下意识试图打破原有脚本，转向不同模式。以前从没意识到这点，但确实说得通。

Right. Because what they found, conversation analysts found, was that we follow set patterns, these kind of prescribed rhythms of conversations. So if you interrupt this the flow of one type of conversation with say a a new set of rules comes up that that takes the conversation from there that both people are aware of, but don't realize they're aware of, which to me, I I hadn't thought about it, but if you've ever said, to somebody when you knew full well what they had just said, you were just reflexively trying to derail or disrupt that that type of script in favor of a different one. Never realized that before, but it it makes sense.

也可能是通过时机，但总之是为了某种目的进行干扰。萨克斯还发现了称为'复合语'的现象，这些短语是组合成的单元，通常用于引发特定回应。比如电话中说'需要帮忙吗'，显然是在要求回应以了解情况。在急救中心，对方可能真的会回答'我不知道'。

Or maybe by time even, but it's some sort of a disruptor to divert something for some reason. Sax identified another thing called composites, and they're phrases that are kind of combined as a unit, and it usually is a prompt for some kind of response. Like if someone says, may I help you like that on the telephone, what they're then obviously is asking you for a response to let you know what's going on. In the case of an emergency call center, they might literally respond to, may I help you? By saying, I don't know.

他们发现这并非不合理回应。有人可能真的会说'我不知道你能不能帮我'，这就需要按字面意思来理解。

And what they found was, is it wasn't like, that was a reasonable response. Somebody might literally say, I don't know if you can help me, and it needed to be sort of taken at face value like that.

没错。他们提出的观点表明，萨克斯发现存在这些复合结构——比如当你说'需要帮忙吗？'时，表面意思并非真实意图。这属于后来被称为'相邻对'的对话结构：你发出一个提示性话语，对方会有预期范围内的回应。任何超出这个范围的回应都会显得突兀。

Right. What they've what that suggested that Sacks discovered was that there were these composites, where if you're saying, may I help you? You don't mean it at face value. It's a part of a I think what would be called later an adjacent pair where you prompt, you say something that's a prompt, and there's an expected, like, range of responses to it. And anything outside of that is like, okay.

这在理论上说得通，但实际对话中并不合理。他用'人人都必须说谎'的观点佐证这一点——他在1975年的论文中写道：没错。他举的例子就像街头相遇时的问候：'最近怎么样？'如果对方回答的不是'挺好'、'不错'或'很好'，就违背了这类复合提示的规则。

That makes sense on paper, but it doesn't make sense conversationally. And he kind of supported this with the idea, he wrote in a 1975 paper that everybody has to lie. Yeah. And he used the example of, like, a greeting among people meeting on the street where you say, like, how are you doing? And if the person says anything other than fine or great or good, they've just violated this this type of composite prompt.

你不应该给出其他回答。更有趣的是，查克，他们发现这似乎是普世现象——不仅存在于美国人、英语使用者或德国人中。本质上对方并不想知道你的真实状况。

You're not supposed to say anything else. And even more interesting than this, Chuck, is that they seem to have found that this is actually universal. It's not just like among Americans or English speakers or Germans or anything like that. Essentially does not want to know how you're actually doing.

是的。我发现这是衡量亲密程度的很好指标，能让你意识到自己是否建立了真正的

Yeah. And I found that that's a very good indicator of closeness, and how you know that you've developed a true like

没错。

Right.

与他人的亲密关系，比如友谊之类的。因为问候更像形式化的社交礼仪——即使认识但不熟悉的人之间，也会说'我挺好的'、'还不错'。

Closeness with someone else, like a friendship or whatever, because that's much more of a formal thing. Even if you know somebody, but don't know them that well, you'll say, oh, yeah, I'm doing fine. They're like, pretty good.

确实。

Right.

但如果对方是你真正熟悉且关系亲近的人，你就不必说谎。你可以很轻松地说，我超级累，或者我状态不太好，因为某某原因。

But if it's somebody you really know and you're close to, you don't have to lie. You can very easily say, I'm super tired, or I'm not doing great because x y z.

没错。如果你遇到一个真正想知道你近况的人，一定要珍惜这个人。

Yeah. If you find somebody who actually does wanna know how you're doing, you hang on to that person.

对。或者如果你偶然遇到某人，问'最近怎么样？'，对方却开始掏心掏肺说真话，那你直接走开就行了。

Right. Or if you meet someone out of blue and say, how you doing? And they start in with the truth, then just walk away.

没错。说不定还得小跑着离开。嗯，这是危险信号。另一个重大突破是录像机租赁服务出现的时候。

Right. Maybe even jog away. Yeah. Red flag. So one of the other big breakthroughs was came along when you could rent VCRs.

嗯。他们配备了大型录音设备，就像《鬼驱人》里用的那种，这改变了对话分析领域。突然间你能看到所有伴随对话的细节，不再是电话里 disembodied voices（无实体的声音），你能看到人们的互动方式。是的，这确实开启了一个全新的世界。

Uh-huh. And they had giant recording equipment, like the kind they used in Poltergeist, that changed conversation analysis, where now all of a sudden you could see all the stuff that goes along with it. It wasn't just telephone calls from disembodied voices, you could see how people interacted, and it Yeah. Opened up this whole new world. For sure.

我们要不要休息一下？

Should we take a break?

我就知道你会这么说。

I knew you were gonna say that.

好的。我们马上回来。

Alright. We'll be right back.

震网。谁是震网？

Stuxnet. Who's Stuxnet?

说出来

Say it

再说一次。震网。不知道那个...你知道是震网。是这个吗？震网。

one more time. Stuxnet. Don't know if that You know it's Stuxnet. Is that in this? Stuxnet.

震网。这名字很棒。是的。谁想要震网？这就是它的名字。

Stuxnet. It's a great name. Yeah. Who wants Stuxnet? That's the name of it.

我知道。

I know.

这名字很棒。好的。震网，带e带x的那个。

It's a great name. Alright. Stuxnet with an e with an x.

我们来聊聊你可能从未想过的一样东西——你的沙发。

Let's talk about something you probably haven't thought about, your couch.

没错。就是你用来打盹、吃饭、甚至哭泣的那件家具。

Yeah. That thing you nap on, eat on, cry on.

事实证明，大多数沙发基本上就是细菌的游乐场。

Turns out that most Silphas are basically bacteria playgrounds.

这是真的。我们查过了，情况不容乐观。

It's true. We looked it up. It's not good.

但Anabay改变了这一点。它是可水洗的，完全可水洗。取下罩子，扔进洗衣机，砰，干净如新。

But Anabay changes that. It's washable, like fully washable. Take the covers off, throw them in the machine, boom, clean.

而且，它实际上价格亲民，这在市面上相当难得。

Also, it's actually affordable, which is surprisingly rare.

所以，如果你每天都要坐在某样东西上，或许别让它成为生物危害。更棒的是，它不仅仅实用，还经济实惠。起价仅699美元，你就能让沙发既洁净又舒适。

So, yeah, if you're gonna sit on something every day, maybe don't make it a biohazard. And here's the kicker. It's not just practical. It's affordable. Starting at just $699, you can make your sofa as clean as it is comfy.

现在，您购买Anabay沙发最高可享6折优惠。因为说实话，您值得拥有比细菌培养皿更好的休息场所。立即访问washablesofas.com，给您的沙发来个它梦寐以求的升级。网址是washablesofas.com。

Right now, you can even get up to 60% off your Anabay sofa. Because let's be real, you deserve better than a germ factory for a place to rest your head. Check out washablesofas.com now and give your couch the upgrade it's begging for. That's washablesofas.com.

Wayfair，应有尽有。作为您值得信赖的家居全品类目的地，Wayfair提供今秋温暖家居所需的一切——从舒适躺椅到温馨床品和秋季装饰。

Wayfair, they've got just what you need. And as your trusted destination for all things home, Wayfair's got everything you need to cozify your space this fall from comfy recliners to warm bedding and autumn decor.

没错。天气开始转凉了，还有更棒的——Wayfair甚至还有意式咖啡机。这样您就能在家自制那款拿铁了，您懂我说的是哪款。

That's right. The weather's starting to cool down a little and get this. Wayfair even has espresso makers. So you can make that latte at home. You know the one I'm talking about.

是啊。何不囤些保暖床品、舒适盖毯、秋季主题抱枕，以及适用于各空间的收纳用品？您得收起户外家具了，需要存放的地方，Wayfair都能满足您。

Yeah. And why not stock up on warm linens, cozy throw blankets, autumn themed throw pillows, and storage for every space. You gotta put your outdoor furniture up and you need a place to store it, Wayfair's got you covered.

说得对。无论何种风格、何种家居，总有一款适合您。无论您的空间大小或预算多少，Wayfair通过房间创意和精选合集，让实现家居目标变得轻松。用Wayfair精心策划的实惠秋季焕新合集温暖您的空间吧——从舒适躺椅到温馨床品和秋季装饰，一切尽在wayfair.com，价格更优惠。

That's right. There's something for every style and every home. No matter what your space or your budget, Wayfair is gonna make it easy to tackle your home goals with room ideas and curated collections. So cozify your space with Wayfair's curated collection of easy affordable fall updates. From comfy recliners to cozy bedding and autumn decor, find it all for way less at wayfair.com.

网址是wayfair.com。Wayfair。每种风格，每个家。嘿，

That's wayfair.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Hey,

大家注意了。LinkedIn已发展成为拥有超过10亿专业人士和1.3亿决策者的网络，这正是其区别于其他广告投放平台的关键所在。

everybody. Get this. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1,000,000,000 professionals and a 130,000,000 decision makers, and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys.

是的，当然。你可以按职位、行业、公司、角色、资历、技能甚至公司收入来定位你的买家，这样就能停止在错误受众上浪费预算。

Yeah. For sure. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, even company revenue so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience.

没错。这就是为什么在所有在线广告网络中，LinkedIn广告能产生最高的B2B投资回报率。说真的，是所有网络中最高的。

Yep. That's why LinkedIn ads generates the highest b to b row as of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them.

还有这个，如果你在LinkedIn广告上的首次广告活动花费250美元，你就能获得250美元的免费信用额度用于下一次。只需访问linkedin.com/sysk。就是linkedin.com/sysk。条款和条件适用。你知道，在我们休息之前，你提到了那些巨大的摄像机，而我在读马修·莫迪恩的《全金属外壳》制作日记。

And get this, if you spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads, you get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com/sysk. That's linkedin.com/sysk. Terms and conditions apply. You know, before we broke, you talked about the huge cameras, and I'm I'm reading Matthew Modine's diary of making a full metal jacket.

你知道演员马修·莫迪恩吗？

You know the actor Matthew Modine?

当然。我完全知道你在说什么，但第一，我简直不敢相信真有这种东西存在；第二，我简直不敢相信你正在读它。

Of course. I know exactly what you're talking about, but number one, I can't believe there is such a thing, and number two, I can't believe you're reading it.

哦，它很棒。这是他拍摄电影时的日记。凯西在我们做Movie Crush节目时给我弄到的，这是一份非常贴心的礼物。那是一个吻。其中他谈到必须为试镜录制录像带，这在现在是很常规的做法，尤其是在编剧罢工和新冠疫情之后。

Oh, it's great. It's his diary when he was making the movie. Casey actually got it for me when we were doing Movie Crush, it was a very sweet gift. He That's a kiss. At one point, he was talking about having to put yourself on tape for an audition, which is something routinely done all the time now, especially since the writer strikes and COVID and stuff.

但是，嗯。

But Mhmm.

他当时就说，这真是太麻烦了。你得认识一个有那种大型摄像机的人，还得去他们的工作室，巴拉巴拉一大堆。我当时就觉得，这种方式既可爱又老派。

He was like, it's just such a pain. You gotta know somebody who has one of those huge video cameras, and you have to go to their studio, and blah blah blah. And I was just like, it was very cute and quaint.

是啊。我侄女米拉就经常得这么干。

Yeah. My niece, Mila, has to do that a lot.

对，对。这基本上就是现在的常规操作了。

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's super it's kinda the way it's done now.

确实，确实。不过我在想，不知道哪种更糟，是在人面前现场表演，还是对着一个完全得不到反馈的录像表演。

For sure. For sure. But yeah, I imagine it's a it's I don't know which would be worse, doing it live in front of people or doing it in front of a recording that you're getting zero feedback from.

我认识的每个演员都讨厌给自己录试镜带。他们宁愿在现场房间里表演。

The every actor I know hates putting themselves on tape. They would much rather be in the room.

懂了。因为他们都是能量吸血鬼嘛。

Gotcha. Cause they're all energy vampires.

没错。完全正确。

Right. Exactly.

所以，我之前提到的一点是，会话分析并不是一门标准的社会科学，它并不发展关于人们为什么做这些事情或者为什么当别人说了某句话时你会这样说的理论。再次强调，他们只是在寻找模式。他们关注的是其结构。而它很酷的一点在于，这并不意味着他们没有从中推导出任何意义。他们不是在推测其含义。

So one of the things I kind of alluded to earlier is that conversation analysis is not a standard social science, and that it doesn't develop theories of why people are doing these things or why you said this when somebody else said that. Again, they're just looking for patterns. They're looking at its structure. And the cool thing about it is that that doesn't mean that they're not deriving any meaning. They're not postulating what it means.

比如说，他们不会去找两个听众或两个说话者。嗯。然后他们去问说话者二号，说当说话者一号问‘你怎么样’时，你认为他是什么意思？

Like, for example, they're not going up to two listeners or two speakers. Mhmm. And they go to speaker number two and say, what do you think speaker number one meant when they said, how are you doing?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。他们只是分析对话，基于说话者二号的回应，这告诉会话分析师说话者二号认为说话者一号在表达什么。所以仅仅通过检查，他们就能从中得出或推导出意义。再次强调，这与其他社会科学不同，而且似乎真的让其他所有人都感到不爽。我喜欢这一点。

Yeah. They just analyze the conversation, and based on speaker two's response, that tells the the conversation analysts what speaker number two thought speaker number one was saying. So just by examining it, they can come up with meaning or derive meaning from it. And again, that's just not like other social sciences, and it seems to really stick in the craw of everybody else. I love it.

是的。他们也不想——他们希望尽可能保持自然，只是让人们彼此进行自然而然的对话，而不是编排一些大型的场景。嗯。不过，由于科学伦理等原因，你必须告诉人们他们正在被录音。所以，你不可能真正做到完全隐身。

Yeah. They also didn't wanna they wanted to be as organic as possible, and just have people have naturally natural conversations with with each other, rather than orchestrating some big like scenarios. Mhmm. You do have to, just because of scientific ethics and stuff, you have to tell people they're being recorded. So, you can't truly be just a fly on the wall.

但他们确实发现，仅仅是录音设备的引入，他们觉得……而且我认为通过证据他们已经表明，这并没有显著改变事情到足以使结果被废弃或类似的程度。

But they did find that just the introduction of a recording device, they they didn't feel like. And I think they've shown through evidence that it didn't really significantly change things enough to where the the result was like thrown out or whatever.

对，对。就像我们说的，当你开始进行会话分析时，你是从一段对话的录音开始的。如今，是用录像带，然后你将其转录。会话分析中的一个重要事项是，当你转录时，你需要尽可能客观地去做。

Right. Right. And like we said that that when you are beginning a conversation analysis, you start with a recording of a conversation. Nowadays, it's with videotapes, and then you transcribe it. And one of the big things in conversation analysis is when you transcribe it, you need to do it as objectively as possible.

你需要摒弃自己对谁做了什么的主观想法，只需忠实记录：这是一次打断，这是一个话轮构建单位（TCU），这个人在说话中间吸了口气。乔希刚才说他中途纠正了自己，所以他使用了修正机制。在没有任何主观输入的情况下标注所有这些内容，然后在你完全转录后再进行分析。

You need to keep out your own subjective thoughts about who did what and just just faithfully say this was an interruption, this was a TCU, this person took a breath in the middle of their word. Josh just said he corrected himself in the middle of the sentence, so he just used a repair. And notate all this stuff without any subjective input from you, and then you go back and you analyze it after it's been fully transcribed.

是的。而且你非常巧妙地，我可以说是不动声色地，在这里那里撒入一些小词，让人们觉得：他说的这些东西是什么意思？这些正是他们寻找的东西，也是他们命名的东西。比如在日常用语中，我们知道一些像回应语、打断之类的概念。但你要知道，他们是分析师，他们更进一步研究了这些现象。

Yeah. And so, you've been very cleverly, I might say, subtly dropping in little little words here and there that people are like, what's he talking about with this stuff? That's the stuff that they're looking for, and that's the stuff that they named. Like things that, like in in common parlance, we we know some of these things like rejoinders and interruptions and things like that. But, you know, they're analysts, they took it a step further.

现在就来介绍其中一些概念。其中一个叫做话轮构建单位（TCU），很明显不是指德州基督教大学。他们是青蛙队？角蟾队？

And here are some of those right now. One of them is called a Tern Constructional Unit, TCU, obviously. Not Texas Christian University. They're Frogs? Horned toads?

我想是角蛙队？

Horned frogs, I think?

差不多吧。我觉得是。

Something like Yeah. Think that's it.

但话轮构建单位是所有对话、每一次对话的基本构建模块。嗯。它可以只是一个手势，比如对某人点头。也可以是多个句子。但它们最终会到达一个叫做转换关联位置（TRP）的点。

But turn constructional units are the building blocks of any conversation, of every conversation. Mhmm. And it can be just a gesture, like a nod at somebody. It can be multiple sentences. But they end up with what's called a transition relevance place, a TRP.

那是一个时刻，就像你刚说完话，其他人可能有机会发言了。或者你也可以在那之后继续说些什么，那基本上就是你接过了另一个话轮，连续使用了两个话轮构建单位。

And that is a moment where, like, what you've said has ended, and someone else may have a turn to speak now. Or you may say something else after that, and that's just you taking another turn, basically, and having two turn constructional units in a row.

所以，就在你连续说完之后，那就是过渡关联位置所在。就是这样。因为它给了我一个开始说话的机会。而你之前所说的所有内容都是话轮构建单位，那就是你的话轮。

And so, just right after you said in a row, that's where the transition relevance place was. That was it. Cause it gave me a chance to start talking. And everything you said leading up to it was the turn constructional unit. That was your turn.

你在对话中完成了你的话轮。有一个停顿让我得以开始我的话轮。而这些就是对话的基本构建模块。

You took your turn in the conversation. There was a pause that allowed me to start taking my turn. And that's that's the basic building blocks of a conversation.

没错。好的。看吧，你很擅长这个。

That's right. Okay. See, you're good at this.

当然，当我分析时，还有很多不同的规则或例外情况。比如你可以连续使用两个话轮，而实际上没有提供过渡关联位置——也就是让另一位说话者开始的那个停顿。例如，你可以说：'你饿了吗？我想吃个汉堡。'

There's also when I analyze it, sure. There's also like a lot of different, I guess, rules or exceptions or whatever. Like you could say, you could use two turns in a row without really allowing for a transition relevance place, that pause that allows the other speaker to start. For example, you could say, are you hungry? I could go for a burger.

实际上就是连续占了两个话轮，像个贪心的大胖子，中间没有任何停顿，但这并不被视为违反对话规则。这只是一个例外。这是我们如此擅长对话的一种方式，我们可以通过连续说两个话轮来炫耀，而不会打乱对话的流畅性。

Actually just took two turns, like a big fat hog, without any pause in the middle, and yet that's not considered like any sort of violation of conversation. It's just, again, it's like an exception. It's a it's a way that we've kind of we're so good at conversation, we can show off by taking two turns in a row and not mess up the flow of conversation.

是的，完全正确。而且我们还必须指出，很多时候他们研究的是仅两人之间的对话，但你也可以分析群体对话。那只是另一种不同的情况了。

Yeah. Exactly. If it's and we have to point out too that a lot of times they were looking at conversations between just two people, But you can also analyze conversations in groups. It's just sort of a different beast.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但在超过两人的对话中，在那个话轮转换相关位置，很可能该轮到别人说话了。比如，如果你在晚宴上对一群人讲故事，很常见的情况是，讲完故事后不会只是茫然地盯着空气。你会讲完故事，然后可能会看向某个特定的人，这可能是有原因的。也许那是你的伴侣，或者是你最初因为这个人说的话才开始讲这个故事，所以你会把话题转回给他们。但你知道，这是一种方式来表示：嘿，现在我在看着你。

But in conversations with more than two people, at that transition relevance place, where it it's probably someone else's turn to talk. Like, if you're in a group of people at a dinner party and you're telling a story, it's very common to, like, finish up the story and not just stare blankly into space. But you finish up the story and maybe look at one particular person, and there may be a reason for that. Maybe it's it's your person, or maybe it's the person you originally sort of started the story in reference to what this other person was saying, so you'll kinda turn it back to them. But, you know, that's one way you can sort of indicate like, hey, now I'm looking at you.

他们可能不会在那个时候说话，可能，你知道，别人会插进来，这要看情况。

And they may not speak at that point, it may, you know, someone else may jump in, it just sort of depends.

没错。你也可以做个手枪手势指向那个人对吧。然后他们就会接话。刚才你提到茫然地盯着天花板时我笑了，这太傻了——当你把一个恰当的反应替换成别的动作时。每次都会让我发笑，因为这些脚本太程式化了，做任何不符合常规的事情都显得荒谬又好笑。

Right. You could also make a finger gun and go at that Right. And they and they'll take over. One of the things I laughed a minute ago when you talked about staring blankly at the ceiling, it's so silly when you when you just you just take out like a proper response and put in something else. It just makes me laugh every time because it's so prescribed, like, these scripts are so prescribed that doing anything other than that is is just absurd and hilarious.

是啊。我的意思是，这简直就是隐藏摄像机素材，你知道吧？

Yeah. I mean, it's a it's like hidden camera material, you know?

所以我提到我...我想我自我纠正了。实际上，当我说错话，把'breath'发怪音，然后立刻正确重说时，这其实是我打断了自己，我称之为修复机制。

So I mentioned that I I I think I corrected myself. I actually, it it's considered an interruption. When I misspoke and said breath weirdly, and then said it again correctly right after, I actually interrupted myself, and I referred to that as a repair mechanism.

是的。

Yeah.

正是如此。因为人类互动和对话中一个不常被提及的部分是，我们必须有纠正和调整误解的方法。如果没有，我们虽然能对话，但两个人可能会带着对刚交换信息完全不同的理解离开对话。对吧？所以当我们知道自己犯错时必须能够自我纠正，反过来，如果我们没听懂对方的话，也需要能够请求澄清。

That's exactly what it is. Because one of the unsung parts of human interaction and conversation is that we have to have ways of correcting and adjusting misunderstandings. If we didn't, we would be able to converse, but two people would walk away from the conversation potentially with totally different understandings of the information that was just exchanged. Right? So we have to be able to correct ourselves when we know we made a mistake, and then also, conversely, we need to be able to ask for clarification if we didn't understand what the person was saying.

是的。或者其他人可能会要求澄清

Yeah. Or someone else may ask for that clarification

嗯

Mhmm.

或者类似的情况。嗯。所以，修复不一定要出现，它不一定总是自我修复。

Or something like that. Mhmm. So, the repair doesn't have to come, it's not necessarily a self repair always.

对。但这并不意味着要走到对方面前说：真的很抱歉，我不会再这样做了，从现在开始我们要如何做得更好。不是那种修复。

Right. But it doesn't mean like going to the person and being like, I'm really sorry, I'm not gonna do this anymore, and here's how we're gonna do it better from this point Not that kind of repair.

还有间隙。在分析对话时需要识别的东西，我们都知道那是什么。我相信我一直称之为，朋友们也称之为尴尬的停顿。

There are also gaps. Something to identify when they're analyzing conversations, and we all know what that is. That I believe I always call them and friends have called them awkward pauses.

嗯

Mhmm.

当不清楚下一个发言者会是谁时。这种情况可能发生。比如，你知道，即使在非常社交的场合，和一群亲密的朋友在一起时也会发生。事实上，我觉得最明显的时候是，比如，你在一个晚宴上，大家都在笑和说话，然后所有人都突然空白了几秒钟。确实。

When it's not clear who the next speaker gonna is gonna be. And that can happen. Like, you know, you can and and even with groups of close friends in a very social situation. In fact, I feel like that's when it's most sort of noticeable is when, like, you're at a dinner party and something and everyone's laughing and saying things, and then everyone just draws a blank for a couple of beats. Sure.

然后通常有人会说，尴尬的停顿之类的，而不是说，从技术上讲，那是一个对话间隙。

And then someone will usually say like, awkward pause or something like that and and not say like, that's a technically, it's a conversation gap.

我认为这是一个很好的替代说法，因为'尴尬的停顿'已经被用得太多了。就说'对话间隙'吧。没错，所以当这种情况自然发生时，确实会让人感到不舒服。就像大家对于那个话题都已经没什么可说的了。

That's I think a good a good replacement now because awkward pause is so used up. Just be like conversation gap. Right. So it can be uncomfortable when it happens naturally naturally like that. Like every everybody's just kind of run out of things to say about whatever that conversation was.

当有人错过了发言时机时，情况就更尴尬了。对吧。

It's even more uncomfortable when somebody misses their turn to speak. Right.

很明显是这样。

Like clearly.

是的。当他们没有任何回应的时候。对吧？这就会造成间隙。很多时候，你可以通过重复刚才的问题来示意，把笑点再说一遍

Yes. Where they don't give any sort of response. Right? That is that can cause a gap. And a lot of times, you can signal that by, like, repeating the question you just asked, saying the the punch line one more time

没错。

Right.

说些诸如'你对此怎么看？'这样的引导性话语。此外还有非语言的方式来示意间隙，比如双手举高然后做一个向前弓步的动作。

Saying something like, what do you what do you think about that? A prompting thing. And then there's also nonverbal ways of signaling gaps, like putting both hands in the air and going into a forward lunge.

没错。我一直觉得如果笑话没响，我们只要不断重复笑点总是管用的。

Right. I've always found that if the joke doesn't go, we're just merely repeating the punch line again always works.

正是。一遍又一遍地重复。你

Exactly. Over and over and over again. You

可能没听清。对的。相邻对，我想你可能提到过，就是当期待某种特定回应时。比如问'最近怎么样？'，回答'嘿，我挺好的'。

may not have heard me. Right. Adjacency pairs, I think you might have mentioned that, but that's when when a specific kind of response is expected. So like, how's it going? Hey, I'm doing pretty good.

这些也常被称为前序列。就像是一种，几乎算是模板式的应答。

They're also a lot of times referred to as pre sequences. So just sort of like, sort of like a pad answer almost.

是啊。比如'请进，好吗？''谢谢'。这就是邀请-接受、问候-问候、提问-回答。其实这类对话很多，当你替换它们时会显得特别滑稽。

Yeah. Like, come in, won't you? Thank you. That'd be invitation acceptance, greeting greeting, question answer. There's actually a lot of those that that those are the ones that are maybe even silliest when you replace it.

比如有人说'要来块蛋糕吗？'，你却回'你好'。

Like if somebody says, would you like a slice of cake? And you go, hello.

对。这样行不通。但如果你说'你好？'会怎样呢？

Right. It doesn't work. Well, what if you went, hello?

没错。我正想说同样的话。就像我们已经找到了绕过规则的方法，你可以灵活运用规则，在整个事情上发挥更多创意。你可以用完全不合适的东西让它变得合适。最妙的是把这么有趣的事情解释到极致。

Exactly. I was gonna say the same thing. Like we've figured out ways around that you can massage the rules and get even more creative with the whole thing. That you could use something that's totally inappropriate and make it appropriate. The best thing about something that funny is explaining it to death.

好吧。来。再问我要一次蛋糕。我还有一个。

Alright. Here. Ask me for cake one more time. I got one more.

好的。你想要一块蛋糕吗？

Okay. Would you like a slice of cake?

自己去拿。

Go yourself.

这还行。在某种程度上确实有效，没错。

That works. It kinda works to an extent, for sure.

讲故事是另一个例子。当你提到在问题结束时茫然出神，如果你作为沟通者不知道自己在做什么，这种情况也可能发生在故事结尾。对吧。当你开始讲故事时，很多时候你会给出一个暗示，比如'我有没有告诉过你'之类的话，表明接下来一两分钟将由你主导。

Stories is another one. When you mention the staring into space at the end of, like, a question to you, That can also happen at the end of a story if you don't know what you're doing as a as a communicator. Right. When you start a story, you a lot of time give an indicator that, you know, that it's gonna be you for a minute or two by saying something like, did I ever tell you about or something like that.

或者'听听这个'。

Or get a of this.

听听这个。或者我告诉你我遇到的事。然后你开始讲你的故事，通常你会以看向某人的方向结束，这时你应该通过说“天哪，太搞笑了”之类的话来回应，而不是只是茫然地盯着对方。

Get a of this. Or I'll tell you what happened to me. And then you start your sort of story, and usually, you will end it by kind of looking in someone's direction, and that's when you should sort of acknowledge by either saying like, oh man, that's so funny, or just something like that, and not just stare blankly back at somebody.

所以，我承认我确实会这样，尤其是在我开始治疗ADHD之前。我的思绪很容易

So, I have I'm guilty of doing that, especially before I started treating my ADHD. My mind would wander very

哦，非常

Oh, very

在别人讲故事时走神，而当对方看向我，感觉需要解释为什么我该有更强烈的反应时，我才意识到自己完全没听进去。然后我就会说：“哦，是啊，那事发生在你身上真糟糕。”对吧。这确实不利于良好的互动，会让人想远离你。

easily when somebody was telling a story, and I would know that I really missed it when the person would look at me and then have to feel like they had to explain why I should be reacting more than I am. And then I'd be like, oh, yeah. That really sucks that that happened to you. Right. It was not it doesn't really make for good interactions, makes people wanna stay away from you.

哦，乔希真的很吃这一套，

Oh, Josh really dug that one,

对。我就像，什么？因为是啊，你不会说“什么？我没注意听”。你试图掩饰过去，而这实际上让情况更糟。是的。

Right. I'm like, what? Because yeah, you don't say, what? I wasn't paying attention. You try to play it off, and that actually makes Yeah.

它

It

有一些话语标记，它们就像是组织性帮助的词或短语，比如‘哦’或者‘因为’，通常用来将某些内容与之前提到的内容连接起来。

There are discourse markers, and they're just sort of words or phrases like org organizationally help out, like oh, or because, and you're usually like connecting something to something that came before it.

对。最后一个是层叠动作，就是当你把它与一个手势结合时，它不仅改变了意思，实际上还完整了含义。是的。Livia举了个例子，当你说‘哦，是的，我见过他’，然后翻个白眼。对吧？

Right. And then the last one is the laminated action, which is when you combine it with a gesture that it doesn't just change the meaning, it actually completes the meaning. Yeah. Livia gave an example of when you say, oh yeah, I've met him, and you roll your eyes. Right?

如果你只是说‘哦，是的，我见过他’，即使语调一样，也不会告诉对方你实际怎么想。嗯哼。但如果你翻个白眼，他们就能完全明白了。你见过他们，你已经评判过他们了。

If you just say, oh yeah, I've met him, Even that same intonation, it doesn't tell the person what you actually think about them. Uh-huh. If you roll your eyes, then they get the whole picture. You've met them. You've judged them.

受不了他们。你希望他们死，死，死。

Can't stand them. You wish they were dead, dead, dead.

是的。一个好的白眼就能表达所有这些意思。

Yeah. Good eye roll can say all those things.

没错。我们现在再休息一下还是继续？

Exactly. Should we take another break now or keep going?

我们也许可以谈谈重叠的部分，然后休息一下。

Let's talk about overlap maybe, and then we can take a break.

感觉差不多就是这样。想法。

That feels about right. Idea.

所以，重叠真的是，真的，就像，感觉对话分析师只要一看到有重叠发生就会特别兴奋。嗯。他们对这种事情特别来劲。一种常见形式就像是简单的误解。比如，我不知道你的话已经说完了。

So, overlap is a really, really, like, feel like conversation analysts just sort of light up whenever there's an overlap that they can witness. Mhmm. They get pretty turned on by that kind of thing. One common form is just like, just a simple misunderstanding. Like, I didn't know that your turn was over.

抱歉。这和打断不是一回事。这是两码事。但打断就像是你在别人说话中间，比如在句子中间停下来并插话。重叠只是当某人停止说话但可能还有别的话要说，而你就开始顺着自己的思路说了。

I'm sorry. It's not the same thing as interruption. Those are two different things. But interruption is like when you stop in the middle of, like stop somebody in the middle of their sentence and talk over them. An overlap is just when someone stops talking and had something else to say maybe, and you you start on your own train.

是的。我觉得我对你做得最多的就是这种事。我以为你说完了，然后我就继续说或者开始说话。那就是，嗯。那纯粹就是打断，无意的。

Yeah. That's the thing think I do the most to you. I think you're done and then I keep talking or I start talking. That is yeah. That's just straight up interruption, unintentional.

还有一种是有意的打断，有人试图控制或主导对话。是的。也就是所谓的完全混蛋。

There is such thing as intentional interruption where somebody's trying to like gain control or dominate a conversation Yeah. A k a total jerks.

对。

Right.

还有一种不同的打断是合作性打断。比如当你在讲故事时我对你说写下来，我其实是在你还在占用话轮的时候插话。你正在构建一个话轮单位

There's also a different kind of interruption which is a cooperative interruption. Like when I say write to you while you're telling a story, I'm actually interjecting it while you're still using your turn. You're you're making a turn construction unit

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

单位。但至少我在帮你推进对话，表明我在倾听并参与其中，这让对话变得合作。

Unit. But I'm helping you along, at the very least demonstrating I'm listening and participating in the conversation, which makes it cooperative.

是的。这些都没问题。你可以在别人讲故事时随时打断，甚至补充内容，比如如果有人正在讲开车的故事，你可能会打断问，你知道，就像，你知道，那是什么

Yeah. And those are just fine. You can interrupt people all the time in the middle of their story, and even add to it if you're, if you can like, maybe you'll interrupt and say, like, somebody was telling a story about driving their car, you know, it's like, you know, what was

那个人开的是什么车

the guy what kind of car

他开的是什么车？然后他们会说，哦，是宝马。然后大家都会说，对。他们可能漏掉了这个细节。所以这都算是对话中的积极参与。

was he driving? And they'll say, oh, a BMW. And then everyone's like, yeah. And they may have left out that detail. So that's all just sort of active participation in the conversation.

没错。我们也很

Precisely. We're also so

顺便说一句，没有针对宝马司机的意思。我不确定为什么我选了那辆车。

No shade toward BMW drivers, by the way. I'm not sure why I said that car.

我们在这方面也很擅长，可以在别人讲故事时插话而不打断故事。比如，如果你正和某人共进晚餐，他们在讲故事，而你说‘嘿，把土豆递给我’。对吧。这实际上并不会让对话脱轨，对方也不会觉得被冒犯。是的。

We're also so good at this whole thing that we can interrupt while someone's telling a story without taking away from the story. For example, if you're sitting there having dinner with somebody and they're telling a story and you say, hey, pass the potatoes. Right. It doesn't actually like derail the conversation and the person's not offended. Yeah.

你只是巧妙地把这个请求插进去，这样你就能一边听故事一边享用土豆了。

You're just you're just fitting that in there so you can eat the potatoes and enjoy them while you're hearing the story too.

没错。而且这甚至可能发生在——我是说，派对是个很好的实验场合，因为大家都围坐在一起，互相看着，各种对话在进行。即使在别人讲故事时，如果土豆离你更近，你甚至可以对桌边的另一个人这样做。但可能会用压低的声音，比如在他们讲故事的过程中。

Yeah. And that's that can happen even I mean, party's such a good sort of experiment because it's everyone seated around and looking at each other and all these conversations are happening. That you can even do that to someone else at the table during someone's story if the potatoes are closer. But you might do it in a hushed tone, like, during the middle of their story.

嘿。能把土豆递过来吗？是的。

Hey. Can you pass potatoes? Yeah.

而那个人甚至可能会说，

And that person may even go,

它们太好吃了。

they're so good.

所以就像，类似这样的。

So what Like, something like that.

当我说‘递一下土豆’时，你想象的是哪种土豆？土豆泥。不知为何，我想到的是蒸的或烤的红土豆，然后我觉得那些不太合适。所以我改成了扇贝土豆，那个很棒。

What kind of potatoes did you imagine when I said pass the potatoes? Mashed. Did you I I, for some reason, thought of steamed or baked red potatoes, and then I was like, those are no good. So I changed it to scallop potatoes, which are great.

哦，天哪。你什么事都想得很多，对吧？

Oh, man. You ever think everything, don't you?

我我我确实是这样。然后我又想到，尤马做的扇贝土豆真的很好吃。思绪就这么一直延续下去了。

I I I totally do. And then I thought about, Yuma makes really good scalloped potatoes. It just kinda kept going from there.

我在想查克现在在说什么。

I wonder what Chuck's talking about right now.

对，没错。不，我刚才也在听。这确实算是一种才能。

Right. Exactly. No. I was listening too. That is a bit of a talent.

我可以一边听一边做那种事。

I can listen and do that at the same time.

好吧。什么？确实。我觉得这挺有意思的。乔治城大学有一位名叫黛博拉·坦嫩的语言学家，她做了一个有趣的小实验，转录了两个加州人、三个纽约人和一个伦敦人之间的对话。

Okay. What? Exactly. I think this is kinda really interesting. There's a Georgetown University linguist named Deborah Tannen, who did a fun little experiment where she transcribed conversations between two Californians, three New Yorkers, and a Londoner.

这应该不足为奇，纽约人总是盖过所有人的声音。当他们和另一个纽约人交谈时，对方也会继续说下去，他们就这样互相抢着说话，但仍然热情高涨、气氛愉快。嗯。但当纽约人盖过加州人或伦敦人说话时，对方就会停止发言。其他人，你知道，当他们回看录像时，会觉得这些纽约人在主导对话。

And this should come as no surprise, New Yorkers talked over everybody. And when they did it with the fellow New Yorker, the other New Yorker just kept talking, and they were just sort of talking over each other, and they were still enthusiastic and having a good time. Mhmm. But when a New Yorker talked over a Californian or a Londoner, they would stop talking. Other people, you know, when they went back and looked at it, others viewed it as like these New Yorkers are dominating the conversation.

他们就是想抢占话语权，每次我一开口就这样。

They just want to take over anytime I said anything.

没错。

Right.

纽约人却觉得，嘿，这很正常啊。我们就是这么交流的。嗯。他们还发现，就纽约人之间而言，纽约人也觉得当自己停止说话时好像没人接话。他们会想，好吧，可能他们不想说话什么的，因为他们都不打断我。

The New Yorkers were just like, hey, it's all good. This is what we do. Mhmm. And they found that as far as New Yorkers and the New Yorkers also thought that, like, no one joined in, like, when they stopped talking. They were like, well, I guess they didn't wanna talk or whatever because they're not interrupting me.

对，完全正确。

Right. Exactly.

但他们确实发现其他学者研究表明，这种纽约式的交流模式也存在于其他文化中，比如萨摩亚、日本和意大利裔美国人。所以这就是为什么每个意大利裔的纽约家庭，总是坐在一起互相嚷嚷个不停。

But they did find that other scholars have found that there are these New York like patterns in other cultures, Samoan Japanese and Italian American. And so that's why every Italian American New York family, all they do is just sit around and scream over each other all the time.

没错。日本让我很意外，我当时想，这听起来不对啊。然后我就想到——你看过日本的早间谈话节目吗？

Right. Japanese stood out to me, and I'm like, that doesn't sound right. And then I thought of have you ever seen a Japanese, like, morning talk show?

哦，当然。是的。

Oh, sure. Yeah.

所以，比如嘉宾或其他主持人正在说话，然后其中一位主持人通常会在对方还没说完时插话提问，而对方会停下正在说的话，回答那个问题，并且毫无冒犯地调整自己。这种情况实际上经常发生，通常是在一句话或一个故事接近尾声时，但确实很常见。而美式英语使用者则是，你说完了，对方才开始说话，否则你就侵犯了对方的发言权。

So the the somebody like a guest or some other anchor or something will be talking, and then one of the hosts will interject usually a question before the person has finished talking, and the person stops saying what they were saying and answers that question and adjusts without being offended at all. So it actually happens quite a bit and usually toward the end of a a sentence or a story or something like that, but it does happen a lot. Whereas American English speakers, you are done speaking, then the person starts speaking, or else you have transgressed on that person's turn.

确实。我们要不要休息一下？好的。行。我们休息一下，之后马上回来完成。

For sure. Should we take a break? Yeah. Alright. We'll take a break and finish up right after this.

震网。谁是震网？震网。震网。

Stuxnet. Who's Stuxnet? Stuxnet. Stuxnet.

我不知道你是否知道震网是什么？

I don't know if You know what Stuxnet is?

那是

Is that

在这里面吗？震网。震网。这名字真棒。是的。

in this? Stuxnet. Stuxnet. It's a great name. Yeah.

震网病毒。就是这个名字。我知道的。

Whoever Stuxnet. That's the name of it. I know.

这名字真棒。好了，Stuxnet，带e和x的那个。

It's a great name. Alright. Stuxnet with an e with an x.

咱们来聊聊你可能没想过的一件事——你的沙发。

Let's talk about something you probably haven't thought about, your couch.

是啊。你在上面打盹、吃东西、哭泣的那玩意儿。

Yeah. That thing you nap on, eat it on, cry on.

结果发现大多数沙发基本上就是细菌的游乐场。

Turns out that most Silphas are basically bacteria playgrounds.

没错。我们查过了，情况不妙。

It's true. We looked it up. It's not good.

但Anabay改变了这一点。它是可水洗的，完全可水洗。取下罩子，扔进洗衣机，砰，干净了。

But Anabay changes that. It's washable, like fully washable. Take the covers off, throw them in the machine, boom, clean.

而且，它实际上价格亲民，这在如今实属难得。

Also, it's actually affordable, which is surprisingly rare.

所以，如果你每天都要坐在某个东西上，也许别让它变成生物危害品。关键是，它不仅仅实用，还价格实惠。仅需699美元起，你就能让沙发既干净又舒适。

So, yeah, if you're gonna sit on something every day, maybe don't make it a biohazard. And here's the kicker. It's not just practical. It's affordable. Starting at just $699, you can make your sofa as clean as it is comfy.

现在，购买Anabay沙发甚至可享受高达60%的折扣。因为说实话，你值得拥有比细菌工厂更好的休息之处。立即访问washablesofas.com，给你的沙发来个它梦寐以求的升级。网址是washablesofas.com。

Right now, you can even get up to 60% off your Anabay sofa. Because let's be real, you deserve better than a germ factory for a place to rest your head. Check out washablesofas.com now and give your couch the upgrade it's begging for. That's washablesofas.com.

Wayfair，他们应有尽有。作为你值得信赖的家居全能目的地，Wayfair提供今秋装扮空间所需的一切，从舒适躺椅到温暖床品和秋季装饰。

Wayfair, they've got just what you need. And as your trusted destination for all things home, Wayfair's got everything you need to cozify your space this fall, from comfy recliners to warm bedding and autumn decor.

没错。天气开始转凉了，还有呢——Wayfair甚至有意式咖啡机，让你在家就能制作那款拿铁，你知道我说的是哪一款。

That's right. The weather's starting to cool down a little and get this. Wayfair even has espresso makers so you can make that latte at home. You know the one I'm talking about.

是啊。何不囤些温暖的床品、舒适的盖毯、秋季主题的抱枕，以及适用于每个空间的储物方案？你得收起户外家具，总得有个地方存放。Wayfair都能满足你。

Yeah. And why not stock up on warm linens, cozy throw blanket, autumn themed throw pillows, and storage for every space. You gotta put your outdoor furniture up and you need a place to store it. Wayfair's got you covered.

说得对。无论哪种风格、哪种家居，总有一款适合你。无论你的空间大小或预算如何，Wayfair都能通过房间创意和精选合集，让你轻松实现家居目标。用Wayfair精心策划的简单实惠秋季焕新合集，温暖你的空间吧。从舒适躺椅到温馨床品和秋季装饰，一切尽在wayfair.com，价格更优惠。

That's right. There's something for every style and every home. No matter what your space or your budget, Wayfair is gonna make it easy to tackle your home goals with room ideas and curated collections. So cozify your space with Wayfair's curated collection of easy affordable fall updates. From comfy recliners to cozy bedding and autumn decor, find it all for way less at wayfair.com.

那是Wayfair.com。Wayfair。每种风格，每个家。为您服务。

That's wayfair.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Step you.

嘿，各位。听好了。LinkedIn已经发展成为一个拥有超过10亿专业人士和1.3亿决策者的网络，这正是它与其他广告购买平台的不同之处。

Hey, everybody. Get this. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1,000,000,000 professionals and a 130,000,000 decision makers, and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys.

是的，当然。您可以根据职位、行业、公司、角色、资历、技能，甚至公司收入来精准定位您的买家，从而停止在错误受众上浪费预算。

Yeah. For sure. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, even company revenue so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience.

没错。这就是为什么LinkedIn广告在所有在线广告网络中产生了最高的B2B投资回报率。说真的，是所有平台中。

Yep. That's why LinkedIn ads generates the highest b to b row as of all online ad networks. Seriously, all of them.

还有，听好了，如果您在LinkedIn广告上的首次广告活动花费250美元，您将获得250美元的免费信用额度用于下一次。只需访问 linkedin.com/sysk。就是 linkedin.com/sysk。条款和条件适用。

And get this, if you spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads, you get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com/sysk. That's linkedin.com/sysk. Terms and conditions apply.

所以我们讨论了这些如何都是脚本或模板，就像您说某件事，然后会有一个可预测的回应。实际上您可以将其归结为所谓的“家族”。就像不同类型的对话会归入不同种类的家族。我们看到的主要是重构、道德说教和投射。对吧？

So we we talked about how, like, all of these are scripts or templates, like there's you say something and there's a predictable response. And there's actually you can boil it down to what are called families. So like different types of conversations fall into different kinds of families. The big ones that we've seen are reconstruction, moralizing, and projection. Right?

是的。重构，您知道的，很明显是与某人一起重构或回忆并分享关于某个事件的事情。

Yeah. Reconstruction, you know, obviously reconstructing or remembering and sharing something about an event with somebody.

嗯。

Mhmm.

投射性是指向未来的。是的。可能非常具体，比如我们要去哪里吃晚餐，或者更像是大家坐在一起大声讨论真正的未来。那么道德沟通是关于好与坏的吗？

The projective is looking to the future. Yeah. Could be very specific like where we're to dinner, or just more like sitting around and chatting out loud about like the real future. And then what was moral communication about good and bad?

是的。这更多是关于贬低他人或赞美他人。而我们往往更倾向于负面，贬低他人，而不是建立他人。而且我们贬低他人的方式比我们建立他人或赞美的方式要复杂和精致得多。因为我们作为一个物种有负面偏见。

Yeah. It's more about tearing people down or or complimenting people. And we are we tend way more toward negativity, tearing people down, rather than building people up. And our tearing people down types of genres are way more intricate and sophisticated than our building people up or complementing. Because we have a negative bias as a species.

这真令人沮丧。

That's depressing.

所以有一天我们会超越它的。只需要给我们几万年时间。

So we'll outgrow it one day. Just give us several tens of thousands of years.

是的。所以在开始时，我们谈到了我认为我们举了一个例子说明这可能如何被使用，比如在工作场合之类的。嗯。实际应用肯定涉及这一点。比如，你可能会被一家公司聘请去咨询，当那家公司与人们反复进行相同类型的对话时。

Yeah. So at the beginning, we kinda talked to I think we gave an example of how this might be used, like on the job or something. Mhmm. And sort of practical applications do involve that for sure. Like, you might be hired by a company to come in and consult when that company does like, has kind of the same kind of conversation over and over with people.

比如，如果是手术团队或呼叫中心，那肯定是的。每当你听到'此通话可能被录音用于培训和评估目的'，那很可能就是他们正在做的事情。或者可能只是在评估他们自己的员工以及他们在工作中的表现。

Like, if it's a surgical team or a call center for sure. Whenever you hear this call may be recorded for training and evaluation purposes, that's that's probably what they're doing right there. Or maybe just judging their own employees and how they're doing on the job.

没错，确实如此。他们还发现你可以帮助人们获得某些你想要的特定回应类型。就像我们之前谈到的精神病急诊医院，是的。那里他们想获取病人的名字，然后巧妙地引导他们。

Right. For sure. They've also found you can help people get certain types of responses that you're looking for. Like we talked about the emergency psychiatric hospital Yeah. Where they wanted to get the person's name and then trick them into it.

有位名叫约翰·赫里蒂奇的研究者，毫不意外来自加州大学洛杉矶分校，他与医生合作研究如何让患者主动提出更多需要帮助的问题。他们发现，当医生问'今天还有什么需要帮助的吗？'时，'任何'这个词似乎会触发一个可预测的回应，那就是'没有'。但如果你把'任何'改成'某些'，不知为何，这个特定的措辞或模板就能打开分享更多信息的大门。你根本不会想到这一点，这就是对话分析学家如何实际帮助事物向更好方向改变的杰出例证。

There was a guy named John Heritage, unsurprisingly from UCLA, who worked with doctors to figure out how they could get patients to volunteer more problems that they needed help with, And they found that doctors who say, is there anything else that you need help with today? Apparently, anything triggers a response, a predictable response, which is no. But if you change anything to something, that, for some reason, that particular script or template opens up the possibility of sharing more information. And you would just never figure that out, and this is one of the sterling examples of how conversation analysts, like, actually help things change for the better.

是的。说得很好。

Yeah. That was well said.

谢谢。干得漂亮，约翰·赫里蒂奇等人。

Thank you. Way to go, John Heritage et al.

伦敦政治经济学院的伊丽莎白·斯托克在研究调解服务的对话时发现了这一点。在这种情况下，人们似乎只想直截了当地了解实际的操作流程。他们不想听那些'我们在这里不偏袒任何一方，也不做评判'之类的话。他们真正想听的是调解的具体步骤和运作方式。

A woman named Elizabeth Stokoe of the London School of Economics and Political Science found this when she studied conversations in a mediation service. That people seems like in this case, people just kinda wanted to get down to brass tacks on what actually they did. They didn't wanna hear things like, well, we don't take sides here, and we don't judge. They really wanted to hear just sort of the step by step process of mediation and how it worked.

是的。她还与那些试图安装客服机器人的公司合作，我读过相关报道。进展并不太顺利。

Yes. She also works with companies that are trying to install customer service bots, and I was reading about that. It's not going very well.

我敢打赌。

I bet.

人们讨厌客服机器人。我也是其中之一。确实如此。我自己也是讨厌它们的人之一。这里有个问题：解决方案是让这些机器人变得更像人类吗？

People hate customer service bots. And there's a I do. There's a yeah. I'm one of them too. There's a question of, okay, is the solution making these bots way more human like?

我们应该插入像“嗯哼”这样的回应吗？让机器人说，或者像人类那样含糊其辞？根据我的了解，共识是否定的。不要那样做。机器人应该能被识别出来，并主动表明自己是机器人。

Should we insert things like Mhmm. Have have a bot say, or, you know, like waffle like a human does? And from what I saw, the consensus is no. Don't do that. Bots should be recognizable and volunteer themselves as bots.

人类就是人类。保持两者分离。我不知道未来会朝哪个方向发展。目前整个领域似乎确实陷入了一种困境。但我也看到，机器人正准备从人类对话分析师手中接管工作，自己进行分析，然后训练其他机器人如何更好地完成工作。

Humans are humans. Keep the two separate. And I I I don't know which direction it's going. It does kinda seem like the whole thing's in a quagmire currently. But I also did see that bots are poised to start taking over the reins from human conversation analysts and doing it themselves, and then training bots how to be better at their job.

所以就是一个机器人训练另一个机器人。没错。据我看来，这就是对话分析的未来。

So one bot training another bot. Right. That's, from what I can tell, the the future of conversation analysis.

是的。比如电影《她》，现在看斯嘉丽·约翰逊的那部片子简直超前得吓人。在那种情境下，他们肯定想让她更人性化，会口误、会犯错。但如果是客服机器人呢？对吧。你肯定不想要那样。我完全不想，尤其不想要一个会说‘我刚搞砸了，我不可爱吗？’的机器人。

Yeah. I mean, with the movie Her, that now is like kinda freakily ahead of its time with Scarlett Johansson, I think in that situation, they definitely wanted to make her way more human, and do things like stumble words and make mistakes. But if it's something like a customer service bot Right. You don't want that. I don't want it at all, but I definitely don't want one that's like, I just goofed, aren't I cute?

没错。哈哈。不过我们言归正传吧，查克。我们开始聊这个话题的真正原因是：男性真的像人们想的那样经常打断女性吗？

Exactly. LOL. So let's get down to it though, Chuck. Here's the real reason we started talking about this. Do men interrupt women as much as people think?

嗯，这个问题从七十年代起就被广泛研究，关于其中扮演的角色，结果好坏参半。有些研究发现男性打断女性的情况多得多，也有些研究发现差异不大。1998年的一项元分析发现，当观察侵入性（特别是侵入性打断） versus 合作性打断时，性别差异变得更加明显。我得到的结论是，男性打断时，确实更具侵入性。

Well, I mean, this has been something that they studied a lot since the seventies about, you know, the roles that that plays, and it's been mixed results. There have been studies that found that men interrupt women much more. There's some that found there's not much of a difference. There was a meta analysis from 1998 that found that gender divide becomes more clear cut when looking at intrusive, specifically intrusive interruptions as to cooperative interruptions. And that's kinda what I took away is that it seems like when men are interrupting, it is definitely more intrusive.

也许是男性说教？

Maybe mansplaining?

当然。

Sure.

我不知道。是的。而且女性打断别人的频率可能也一样高，但这更多是合作型的打断。

I don't know. Yeah. And women interrupt maybe just as often, but it's it's much more of the cooperative type.

没错。他们把这归因于不同的成长环境：女孩成长为女性的过程中被教导通过沟通和对话来社交。所以她们成了这方面的大师，但也形成了男性不一定能满足的期望，比如合作式打断。就像‘哦，说得对。嗯’。

Right. And they chalk this up to different kinds of upbringings where girls who become women are raised to essentially socialize through communication, through conversation. So they become masters at it, but they also develop expectations that men don't necessarily fulfill, like like cooperative interruptions. Like, oh, that's right. Mhmm.

可不是嘛。如果男性不这样做，女性可能会觉得自己没有被倾听。反过来，男孩在等级分明的环境中长大，最终可能将倾听视为一种屈服，而他们更想占据主导。他们想成为阿尔法男性，希望自己的羽绒背心在孩子的足球比赛上是最酷的。

You don't say. If a man doesn't do that, the woman might feel like she's not being listened to. And conversely, boys are raised in a hierarchical manner where they might eventually come to see listening as a form of submission where instead they're trying to dominate. They wanna be the alpha male. They want their puffy vest to be the coolest at their kids football game.

所以，他们不仅不会进行合作式打断，甚至根本不会倾听，还可能进行竞争式打断。因此，至少有很多轶事数据可以支持这一点。

And so not only are they not going to cooperatively interrupt, they're not even gonna listen, and they may interrupt competitively too. So there's a lot of at least anecdotal data to back that up for sure.

是的。而且我认为他们还发现，男性在群体中比在一对一交流时更倾向于打断别人，这显然符合试图确立权力地位的逻辑，比如在团队协作中。嗯。他们还发现了另一个有趣的相关性：在研究的第一作者是女性的研究中，他们发现了更大的差异，这可能只是因为男女研究员对打断行为的编码方式不同。

Yeah. And I think they also found that men tend interrupt more in groups than a one on one, and that definitely seems to fall in line with, like, you know, trying to establish the the power position, and like if you're working together in a group. Mhmm. They did also find another interesting correlation where in studies where the first author of the study was a woman, they found bigger differences, and that just could be that that the male and female researchers are coding the interruptions in a different way.

对。

Right.

挺有意思的。我也这么觉得。那代际方面呢？

Pretty interesting. I thought so too. What about gener generationally?

嗯，很明显，Z世代正在彻底颠覆传统。记得我们讨论过医院的情况吗？在急诊医院，当有人打电话进来，接线员说'请问您怎么称呼？我能帮您什么？'对吧？对方就会觉得有义务先报上自己的名字。

Well, they're so apparently, Gen Z is just throwing a huge wrench in the works. Remember we talked about how at the hospital, the emergency hospital, when somebody called and they said, my name is, may I help you? Right? Right. The other person felt obligated to give their name.

但现在不一样了。像我们这代人长大的时候，你不会觉得必须说'哦，我是乔什·克拉克，我需要什么什么'。你直接就说'嘿，我需要这个'之类的。这就是一个代际变化的例子。

That's not true. Like, when we were growing up, you would not feel like you had to say, oh, well, I'm Josh Clark, and here's what I need from you. You'd just say, oh, hey. I'm I need this or whatever. That's an example of a generational change that took place.

现在Z世代身上表现得更加明显。有种叫做'Z世代凝视'的现象，基本上就是在学乔什那样——你给他们讲个故事，讲完后轮到他们时，他们就只是面无表情地盯着你。显然这种现象相当普遍。

Now it's even more pronounced apparently with Gen z. There's something called the Gen z stare where they're essentially pulling a josh where you can tell them a story and they just stare back at you blankly at the end when it's their turn. And apparently, it's fairly widespread.

是的，我听说过。当时我就想，那是什么？后来查了一下，确实令人不安，就像电话礼仪的变化那样。不过我没怎么经历过，因为现在人们已经不常打电话了。是啊。

Yeah. I've heard about it. And then I I was like, what is that? Then I read up about it, and it is very disconcerting, as is the the phone call thing, which I haven't experienced because people don't call each other much anymore. Yeah.

但显然，Z世代接电话时不会说'喂'，他们期望对方先开口。所以有个Z世代的特点就是，他们接电话时就像这样直接等着对方说话。

But apparently, Gen Z, when they answer a phone, they don't go, hello. They expect the other person to talk first. So apparently, there's a Gen Z thing where they just answer the phone like this.

然后另一个人

And then the other

说，你好？

person goes, hello?

你需要帮助吗？我会这么说。

Do you need help? That's what I would say.

是的，我的意思是，我确实在朋友的孩子那里见识过Z世代的这种凝视，让你觉得，天哪，我一定是地球上最无趣的人，因为他们就那么茫然地看着我。

Yeah, and I mean, I guess I've definitely witnessed the Gen Z stare with friend's kids here and there, to where you're just like, boy, I just like, I must be the least interesting human on earth, because they're just blankly looking at me.

是啊，是啊。或者你也可以换个角度看，觉得，好吧，聊得不错。回头见。

Yeah. Yeah. Or you can look at it the other way and be like, yeah, good talking to you. I'll see you later.

没错。但我也发现，尤其是当你和青少年在一起时，那些有十几岁孩子的朋友们，你甚至不用，你知道，也许说点好听的打个招呼，但别试图开启对话。他们不想和你说话。不，千万别。

Yeah. But I've also found, especially when you're around teenagers, your friends that have teenage kids, just don't even, you know, maybe say something nice and hello, but don't try to strike up a conversation. They they don't wanna talk to you. No. Just don't.

我觉得直接走开就好。自从塔克·塔克还是个青少年时就是这样了。你懂我的意思吧？

I think Just move along. That's been true since Tuck Tuck was a teenager. You know what I mean?

你知道我通常怎么做吗？我会这样，我就这样，哦，嘿。最近怎么样？今年学校生活如何？哦，挺好的。

You know what I usually do? I'll go like, I go like, oh, hey. How's it going? How's school going this year? Oh, good.

挺好的。对吧。很高兴听到这个。然后我就走开了。就像，说点好听的，然后就结束对话。

Good. Right. Glad to hear it. And I'll just walk away. Like, some like a nice thing to say, and then just end it.

你不会接着问，你早上醒来上学前是不是真的很焦虑？

You don't follow-up with, are you really anxious when you wake up in the morning before school?

不会。不会。不会。不会。到了某个年纪，没人想从成年人那里听到这种问题。

No. No. No. No. That no one wants to hear from an adult if you're of a certain age.

好吧。那我得重新考虑我的方式了。

Okay. I'm gonna have to rethink my approach then.

你还记得小时候吗？比如，我甚至不记得和成年人有过对话。

Do you remember when you were a kid? Like, I don't remember even having conversations with adults.

哦，是啊。不会。完全不会。你知道我这些话完全是在开玩笑，对吧？

Oh, yeah. No. Absolutely not. You you know I'm totally kidding this in everything I'm saying. Right?

哦，是的。是的。

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

当然。是的。不，我我记得那个。和成年人说话非常令人紧张，更不用说我们几乎没什么共同点了。

Of course. Yeah. No. I I remember that. It was very intimidating to talk to an adult, let alone having very little in common.

是的。而且他们也不想和我们说话。

Yeah. And they didn't wanna talk to us.

不。不。确实如此。

No. No. For sure.

X世代被大多数成年人忽视是出了名的。

Gen X was famously ignored by most adults.

是的，非常有名。去问问道格拉斯·科普兰就知道了。

Yeah. Very famous. Just ask Douglas Copeland.

那是谁？

Who's that?

他就是写《X世代》的那个人。

He's the guy who wrote Gen X.

哦，好的。那是一本书吗？一本有名的书？

Oh, okay. Was that a book? A famous book?

是的。相信他是...哦，就是那个创造了

Yes. Believe he's Oh, the one who coined the

好吧。真不错

alright. Good for

他。你应该读一读。写得很好，读起来很快。不像论文之类的东西。

him. You should read it. It's good. It's a quick read. It's not like an essay or anything like that.