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大家好，欢迎来到数字电影摄影第三期节目。
Sunny sixteen presents Welcome, everybody, to show number three of digital film photography.
我是克里斯蒂安，这位是我的联合主持人阿德。
I'm Christian, and with me is my cohost, Ade.
你最近怎么样？
How are you doing?
我很好，谢谢。
I am doing very well.
非常感谢。
Thank you.
能和你聊天真好，尤其是在直播中。
It is good to talk to you as as we speak.
今天有个让人兴奋的消息——第一期节目已经上线了，我们现在正式成为一名播客了。
The exciting thing that's happened today is the first show has actually been published, so we are now officially a podcast.
这太棒了，对吧？
That's amazing, isn't it?
今天的节目，我们其实已经偷偷瞄过一会儿，要深入探讨的这个话题了。
And today's show, we we already have been peeping at the rabbit hole that we're going to dive into for a few days.
没错，这期我们就正式开干了。
And yeah, this show we're going to do it.
我们会鼓起勇气，看看怎么在软件里做出那种电影感——之前我们聊过很多次，到底什么才算电影感，今天这期不会太技术向，也不会太深入，但我们会探索几种在软件里实现电影感的方法。
We'll gather all our courage and look at what we can do to achieve a film look, because we discussed at length what we think is a film look and today we want to, it's probably not going to be really a technology focused or in-depth episode, but we're trying to look at certain ways how we can achieve a film look in software.
我觉得这对咱们俩都会挺有意思的，因为到目前为止，咱们用的工具其实不太一样。
And I think that's going to be interesting for the both of us, because I think we both have used different tools so far.
是的， definitely。
Yeah, definitely.
所以
So
我第一个问题想问你：如果你看看自己手头的设备和软件，你平时最常怎么下手，来做出那种电影感的效果？
my first question for you would be what, I mean, if you look at what equipment you have and what software you have, what is your go to approach to get something along the lines of a film look?
这确实是个好问题。
Well, that's a good question.
所以，如果我用富士相机拍摄，我第一件事就是尽量在相机里搞定。
So, I mean, first of all, if I'm shooting with my Fuji camera, I will try and do something in the camera.
我知道这今天也要聊，就是相机内能做的那些调整，但这确实是我最先考虑的。
So I know this is on our list of things to discuss today, you know, the stuff that you can do in camera, but that that's my first thing.
其次，之后我有时候会自己折腾一下。
Secondly, after that, you know, it's it's sometimes I I play.
我得说，虽然我确实想做出那种电影感的效果，但其实……
So I have to say, although I like to get, yeah, to get a film like look, right, due to get an yeah.
为了感受那种氛围，我一般不会特别较真颜色是不是刚刚好，或者别的什么。
To get a feel for it, I'm not usually trying to, you know, get the colors just so or get yeah.
我更在意的，可能是稍微调一下红色。
So so, yeah, I I things I I think about are, you know, just just a a tweak to the reds maybe.
对。
Yeah.
我经常喜欢把红色往深红或酒红色那边靠一点。
Often, I like to to do so to to make them, often a shift from from pure red towards a sort of burgundy maroon kind of color.
我挺喜欢这么做的。
That's something I like to do.
至于蓝色，有时候我会调整一下色相，绿色也是，试着让整体更平衡。
And then, you know, sometimes with the blues, you're sort of playing with the hues of the blues, you know, to to to try and balance that out and greens as well.
我经常调整的是具体的色彩频率，就为了找到自己最喜欢的那感觉。
So so there's there's often it's the the specific color frequencies that I play with, just to get a feel for what I like.
当然，还有颗粒感。
There's grain, of course.
这个效果总是很加分。
That's always a good one.
我偶尔也会稍微降低一下画面的锐度。
And I also occasionally to sort of you know, to to reduce the sharpness on things sometimes.
不过不常这么做，因为大多数数字工具加了颗粒后，自然就能弱化那种生硬的锐利感。
Not often because I find if you you add grain in in most digital tools, that'll help, you know, to to take away that sort of clinical sharpness.
所以，这些只是我平时会留意的几个方面。
So, yeah, those those are just a few of the things that I I look at.
其实这些功能在很多应用里都能找到，也没那么特别。
It's not so much and and often, those are available in lots of different apps.
所以那时候我并不固定用某一个软件。
So, you know, know, the I'm I'm sort of not particularly linked to one app at at that point.
我实际上会用一堆不同的工具。
I use a range of stuff, actually.
你呢？
How about you?
你拍电影的时候会用哪些工具来营造电影感？
What tools do you go to to to try in a film to try and achieve a film look?
我想我之前在第二集提过，我常用DxO的软件。
I I think I mentioned it earlier on on the on the second episode, I resort to DxO software.
就是PhotoLab和FilmPack eLite。
That's PhotoLab and FilmPack eLite.
我很喜欢，因为它们为每款数码相机都提供了很精准的基础配置，这点待会儿我们会聊，因为你需要的是像标准色卡这样的东西，它能真实还原色彩及其名称。
I like it a lot because they have a really good baseline for each and every digital camera, which is something that we'll discuss in a bit because what you need is if you have for example a standard color chart which basically shows the colors in a way that they are natural and the names.
我觉得有不同的色板，比如潘通色卡之类的，还有其他一些东西。
Think there is different color palettes like Pantone, I think it's called and other things.
DxO确实会为每一款数码相机机身做精确校准。
They do, DxO measures out every digital camera body anyhow.
如果你用胶片拍摄同样的色卡，和数码相机用的基准色卡一样，就能看出差异，然后对原始图像做调整，模拟出胶片的效果。
So if you take a film stock and shoot the same color chart that you use for a baseline with the digital camera you can actually see the difference and apply transformations to the original image to give it the film look.
你刚才提到调整色彩、对比度、增加颗粒这些，我觉得特别有意思。我为这期节目做了不少工具调研，发现这些恰恰是所有胶片模拟工具的基础。
And I find very interesting what you said about changing the color, the contrast, adding grain and so on, because I've been going through a number of tools when preparing for this episode and that is basically the foundation of every film emulation or film look tool.
这些工具本质上会以特定方式调整色彩和对比度，改变高光和阴影的呈现方式，有时还会添加颗粒。如果工具足够精准，甚至会模拟晕光效果。
It will basically change the colors in a certain way, change the contrast, maybe change how highlights are displayed and how shadows are displayed and it will add grain in some instances and if you have really accurate tools it will also look at halation.
但如果你把这几点当作基础，就会明白，这些工具其实只是帮用户省去手动在Photoshop里一点点调出胶片感的麻烦。
But if you take that as the basics then you realize that the tools are only there to take the effort away from, let's say, the Photoshop users of trying to create a film emulation or a look by yourself.
所以这就是我用FilmPack的方式。
So that's what I do with the FilmPack.
我直接用预设，因为它们出来的效果跟我想要模拟的胶片质感非常接近。
I apply the presets because they give me a result that looks very close to what I expect from a film stock that I want to emulate.
挺有意思的。
That's interesting.
那你心里有没有想过，当你……我是说，比如……
So do do you have in mind then when you when you're I don't know.
比方说，你出去一日游，或者去了某个地方，对。
Say let's say you've you've been out on a on a day trip, or somewhere or or yeah.
然后你拍了几张照片。
And you have a a a few photos that you've taken that day.
那你回到家之后，会不会突然想到，你知道吗？
Do you then come home and think, do you know what?
今天这光线，感觉特别像用 Portra 400 胶卷拍出来的效果。
Today, I was feeling a bit like a Portra 400 day.
对吧？
Right?
然后你就可以把那些照片批量处理一下，统一加上 Portra 400 的那种色调。
And and then I and then you can go and and, you know, just batch process all of those and and and give them a Portra 400 look.
你平时也是这么做的吗？
Is that the sort of thing that you do?
这正是我喜欢的方式，因为我拍胶片的时候，本来就会这么想。
That's exactly the way I like, because when I shoot film, that's exactly what I think I would do.
就像我们上一期聊的，我会试着想象，我打算拍的风景或人物，用某种胶片拍出来会是什么样子。
I would, as we also discussed last episode, I would try to imagine what would the scenery or the subjects that I want to shoot look like in a certain film stock.
比如几周前我去了一趟北海海岸，那种肖像感一直萦绕着我，因为那种胶片能拍出柔和的淡彩效果。
And let's, for example, I went to the North Sea Coast a few weeks ago and then this portrait feeling overcomes me all of the time because it gives you these subtle pastel sort of images.
当然，如果你后期处理，总还有机会走别的路子。
And yeah, I mean, obviously if you post process, you always have the chance to go down a different road.
比如你觉得用肖像风格没达到想要的效果。
If you think you don't get the result that you want with, for example, a portrait like look.
但我觉得，这种想法可能在数码摄影师里不太常见，更多是胶片摄影师的习惯。
But yes, I think it's in my mind, that's probably something that is not usual for digital photographers, but more for analog photographers.
我脑子里早就有了画面，知道我的胶片或照片应该是什么样子。
I have this mental image of what my film or my shots should look like.
没错，就是这样。
So That's yeah.
我有时候也会有这种感觉。
So I I I have some of that sometimes.
我觉得是这样。
Think yeah.
你想想，嗯，明白了。
You think, okay.
今天我希望它能有点这样子。
Today, I would like it it to look a bit like this.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
或者有点那样。
Or a bit like that.
而且它并不总是那种特别受推崇的风格。
And so and it's not always like the the the super well regarded ones.
我确实挺喜欢的。
I quite yeah.
我以前用过一台110相机，拍的是LUMO胶片，因为那时候只有他们家好像叫Tiger的品牌。
I used to have a one ten camera where I used to shoot, the LUMO Film in it because they were the only people, like, I think it was called Tiger.
那是种彩色负片，色调特别温暖。
It was a color negative film, and it was really warm in its tones.
当然，所有照片都特别粗糙，因为110负片太小了。
And, of course, everything looked incredibly grainy because the one ten negative was so small.
所以有时候我会出去拍，就是想追求那种胶片特有的暖调效果。
So so sometimes you go out and say, oh, I really like that warm look I can get from that film.
但另一些时候，我就想，算了。
So other times, I think, okay.
其实我这次更想模仿一下那种粉丝摄影的风格。
Well, actually, what I really want to do here is I I wanna do something inspired by, like, you know, fan hose photography.
所以我现在想找那种锐利的阴影和类似的效果。
So I'm looking for really sharp shadows and and things like that.
那就是
That's a
强烈的对比
Sharp contrast.
对
Yeah.
有时候你会想，好吧。
And and sometimes you want to say, okay.
没错，我就想要这种效果。
Well, yeah, I want this.
我们可能会去一些很暗的地方，或者晚上出去，那时候你会想，好吧。
We're going at, you know, at either either somewhere that's quite dark or or maybe out at night, you know, where where you think, okay.
其实我想要一种颗粒分明的黑白风格，有扎实的颗粒感，这样才更能传达我此刻的感受。
Actually, what I want is a kind of, you know, a crunchy black and white with with with a good grain look to it because that'll feel that help help me capture what I'm feeling here.
杰拉尔德，假期里和家人一起待在室内漫长的那些日子，确实让我觉得，嗯，我想要这种典型的HP5颗粒黑白效果。
Gerald, the the the the long indoor days with family over the holidays are definitely a time when I feel like, oh, you know, I want this to look like a proper crunchy HP five.
对吧？
Right?
因为不知怎么的，这种画面就是特别吸引我，那种感觉。
Because, you know, and stuff like that just to for some reason, that that's kind of the the imagery that that kind of thing appeals to me.
但除此之外，我并没有一套固定的预设或者类似的东西。
But I I don't have but beyond beyond that, I don't have particularly a whole set of ways of of of presets and and things like that.
可能是因为我根本不用那些——你看，我们这里有一大堆超强的后期工具。
I put possibly because I don't I mean, we've got a great long list of fantastic, you know, very powerful processing tools in our show notes here.
我低头一看，心里就想：不用这个。
And I'm looking down at them and I go, no.
那个也不用。
Don't have that one.
不用。
No.
那个也不用。
Don't have that one.
没有。
No.
没有那个。
Don't have that one.
也许我真该用用。
And I well, maybe I should.
对吧？
Right?
也许我真该用用。
May maybe I should.
但你说到不用那么多工具，这挺有意思的。
But but, it's interesting that you say don't use that many tools.
实际上，DxO的FilmPack有海量的胶片模拟效果，而我大概就用四款左右，因为我总觉得——你还记得我们聊过胶片摄影的青春期吗？那时候你恨不得试遍所有胶片，但问题就在于，你根本没法真正摸透某一种胶片的特性，不知道它在特定场景下会怎么表现。
Actually, the FilmPack, by DxO has, I don't know, a huge amount of films, and I'm probably using maybe four different film stocks that I emulate because I think it's a Do you remember that we talked about film photography puberty where you shoot all film stocks available and one of the disadvantages of doing that is that you never get to know a certain film stock really well, so you have no idea how it will render a certain scene.
我觉得数字预设也是一样的。
I think it's the same with digital presets.
如果你一直瞎试，永远也找不到自己喜欢的风格。
If you just keep playing around, you never will find the style that you like.
我们之前聊过这些元素——色调、颗粒，还有光晕，它们共同构成了我们所说的胶片感。
I mean, we've been talking about these components, coloring, grain and also halation, which make up what we think is some sort of film look.
有意思的是，有些胶片模拟在色调上很到位，但我并不喜欢它的颗粒，所以我干脆把颗粒去掉。我觉得，这正是数字调色的优势：你可以删掉那些不符合氛围的元素。
And the funny thing is some of the film emulations are like for the tonality, but I don't actually like the grain, so I actually leave away the grain So I think that is a freedom that you have when trying to achieve a certain look digitally, that you leave away stuff that doesn't suit the mood.
有时候你想要强烈的颗粒感，但很多时候你并不需要。
I mean, as you have the mood for really strong grain, sometimes you don't.
所以，这至少是数字后期处理的一个优势。
So that's at least some sort of advantage that you have with processing.
不过，抱歉，我刚才跑题了。
But then, yeah, sorry.
不，你说得特别好。
No, that's great.
我觉得这很有意思，因为我有时候也会这样。
I think that's really interesting, because I get like that sometimes as well.
我觉得吧，就这样，对，我就想要这种效果，这正是我想要的风格。
I think, okay, right, yeah, I like it to look like this This is the look I'm going for.
然后你看到中间那一帧，心里就咯噔一下：不对劲。
And then you see a shot in the middle of the the group, and you think, no.
不对。
No.
这根本不是我想表达的意思。
That that that's not what I meant.
对吧？
Right?
我拍那张照片的时候，脑子里想的完全不是这样的画面。
That's not that's not the image I had in my head when I took that shot.
要是你当时拿着胶片相机在现场直接拍下来，可能就刚好是那种感觉。
And, you know, if you'd been there with a film camera and you just take it, it was like, okay.
当然，用胶片拍的话，后期还是可以调整的。
We of course, if you shoot on film, you can still post process it to to to tweak it.
但确实如此。
But it's yeah.
你就有这种能力。
You have that.
你可以几乎随便拍，不是乱拍，但什么都能拍。
You can almost shoot, not not randomly, but you can shoot almost anything.
从户外的强光下到室内的黑暗环境，拍彩色或黑白，各种题材都轻而易举，数字摄影就是这么方便。
You can go from outdoors in bright sunshine to indoors in the dark, and you can shoot color and black and white and all sorts of things so easily with digital.
这既是福气也是挑战，因为你能直接拍下原始素材，但其实你只是把工作往后拖了。
It's it's it's a blessing and a challenge, I think, because it is you you can do the raw capture, but then really all you're doing is is kicking the can down the road.
所有后期处理都留到后面做。
You're leaving all the work till afterwards.
当然，有时候你会忘了自己最初想拍什么。
And and sometimes you can forget what you were aiming for, of course.
所以另一些时候，你会得到一堆照片，彼此风格不统一，因为拍摄和后期处理的方式都不一样。
So other times, it's you end up with a a collection of photos that don't all match each other because they're shot and because they're processed differently.
对我来说，我这个人拍完照特别懒得修图，真不想花太多力气去处理。
And it's I I think it's it's a and and for me, somebody who is is very lazy when it comes to post processing images, I don't like to work too hard.
我更希望在拍照的时候就尽量搞定一切，这其实也是我多年来一直拍胶片的原因——那样就刚好。
And I like to get as much done in the camera as I can, which is one of the things that actually you know, why I've shot film for years and years is that's okay.
胶片拿去冲扫之后，直接就能看到成片，完美。
Because you can get the film back from the lab and the scans go, okay, there's my photo.
这就算完了，不用再动了。
It's finished.
完全不用额外加工。
I don't need to do any work on it.
这确实是个很有趣的特点，我觉得。
And that's a very interesting aspect, I think.
我平时拍的大多是风景照。
A lot of times when I I usually shoot landscapes.
每次出去爬山，看到一个场景，脑子里马上就会冒出来：得用橙色滤镜，拍成黑白的。
And a lot of times when I'm on an outing walking through the mountains, I see a certain scene and then instantly my mind says: You now need to use an orange filter and shoot this in black and white.
说来有趣，我从不在现场这么做。
Funny enough, I never do that on-site.
我当然可以给数码相机装个红色滤镜，再用黑白胶片模拟效果，但其实我几乎从不这么做，因为我觉得，提前加滤镜再转黑白，往往得反复尝试——比如某些绿意很重的场景，用特定的红色滤镜反而没什么好处。
I could obviously attach or screw on a red filter on my digital camera and use it and use a black and white film emulation, but a lot of times hardly ever do I do that because I feel like especially applying some sort of color filter before you convert to black and white, there is a lot of trial and error going on because for some scenes when there is a lot of green, it might not be very beneficial to just use certain reds.
我承认自己会偷懒，直接在后期试各种滤镜，这样更容易得到我喜欢的效果。
I admit to cheating by just trying out certain filters in post because they, then I get the result that I like.
有时候，黑白摄影根本就不存在这种说法。
And sometimes, I mean, black and white, there was no such thing.
抱歉，说的是黑白胶片，根本就没有这种东西。
You just, sorry, black and white film, there is no such thing.
你只要装上滤镜，就像你说的，拿回底片后，就得接受拍出来的样子，因为用了红色滤镜，就等于永久删掉了图像里的一部分光线信息，再也回不来了。
You just attach a filter and you're, as you said, you get the shots back from the lab, the negatives, and you have to live with what you have, because with the red filter you basically remove information, light from the image that you will never get back.
这可能正是有些人喜欢的，但对我而言，有时候反而限制了创作的自由。
And that is probably something that appeals to people, but on the other hand, for me sometimes it takes away some freedom.
我有过一次特别有意思的经历。
I had this very funny experience.
我买了一个扩散滤镜，不知道你有没有听说过，它能让画面变得柔和一些。
I bought a, I don't know if you know that, diffusion filter, which basically gives you some sort of softening of the image.
而且当你逆光拍摄时，它还会产生一种光晕效果。
And it gives you also some sort of halation effect if you shoot against light.
我试了这个物理滤镜，发现我的软件里也有个类似的扩散效果，我把两者并排对比，根本看不出差别。
And I tried that filter and there is this diffusion filter in my software and I put them next to each other and I couldn't see anything.
真的吗？
Oh really?
挺有意思的。
Interesting.
唯一的区别就是得手动拧上拧下，麻烦不少。
Except for the fact that I had to fiddle with screwing on and screwing off
那个真正的滤镜。
the The real one.
就是那种实物滤镜。
The one of those.
结果它还真从我包里掉出来了。
And it went out of my bag, actually.
啊，原来如此。
Ah, okay.
所以我们得谈一件事。
So so so we need to address one thing.
几天前我们聊天的时候，我发给你一张图，我们会在节目笔记里附上链接，那张图来自史蒂薇·妮克丝的维基百科页面。
We were chatting a few days ago and I sent you, we will link to it in the show notes, sent you an image that is in the Stevie Nicks Wikipedia article.
那是一张黑白肖像照，拍的是佛利伍麦克乐队的史蒂薇·妮克丝。
It's basically a black and white image, a portrait of Stevie Nicks of Fleetwood Mac.
我一看到这张照片，立刻就觉得，这正是我心目中所谓‘电影感画册’该有的样子。
And when I saw that image, immediately I thought that is exactly what I think could define a film book.
我发给你之后，你第一反应就说，这看起来几乎像数码照片，因为颗粒太突出了，而且出乎意料地明显。
I sent it to you and one of the first thing was, you said was, that almost looks like a digital image because the grain is so pronounced and so unexpectedly pronounced.
你当时看到这张图，第一反应是什么？
How how I mean, when you saw that image, what were were your first thoughts?
嗯，说实话，这挺有意思的。
Well, I I mean, it it's interesting.
如果不是名人，可能还真有点难辨认。
If it had not been a famous person, then it would it might have been a bit of challenge.
我一看这张图，第一反应就是：这是Stevie Nicks。
So if I look at that, that my first thought is, oh, there's a picture of Stevie Nicks.
看她的年纪，感觉像是七十年代初拍的。
She looks like it was taken in the early seventies by how old she is.
对吧？
Right?
所以这下我就知道，这衣服肯定是电影胶片拍的。
So so that instantly tells me that the corset is obviously a film photo.
但这张照片最让我注意的是，她背后的背景特别简单，而且背景里颗粒感特别重。
But the the this particular photo, the the thing that I saw that that jumped out at me is that, you know, the the background behind her is very plain, and lots and lots of grain on on this image in that background.
可她的脸却显得柔和多了。
But on her face, it's very much softer.
她的脸上，颗粒感没那么明显，至少我是这么觉得的。
The the the grain is much less visibly obvious, at least to me, on on her face.
所以这看起来就像有人拍了张数码照片，然后加了大量颗粒，
And so it it almost looks like somebody has shot it digital, added a bucket load of grain, and
没错。
Exactly.
而且加得有点过头了。
And it's overdone it a little bit.
再把她的脸部分模糊处理一下，
It a little bit and then masked her face.
对。
Yeah.
这样她的脸看起来就没那么粗糙了。
So so that it's not so grainy on her face.
正是这一点让我觉得特别有意思，因为真正胶片拍的照片我很少见到，像这样明显有数码处理痕迹的更少见。
And that's that's the thing that that made me look out and, oh, that's really interesting because you don't often see genuine I don't often see, anyway, genuine film shots that then that that I think all that that looks very digitally.
很明显，反过来的情况更常见。
It's obviously obviously, it's more frequent to be the other way around.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
你经常会看到一个本该模仿胶片质感的数字影像，结果却根本不像。
You have a a digital thing that is well, sorry, a digital thing that's supposed to look like film, but actually doesn't.
你反而觉得它太数字化了。
You think it's more digital.
所以这个情况真的挺特别的。
So this this was really interesting.
而且确实如此。
And I it's yeah.
总觉得这里的颗粒感太重了。
It it just feels that the grain is enormous.
我当时在想，会不会是底片特别小的原因。
And I wondered whether it was a really small negative, perhaps.
我觉得好像没有任何资料说明这张照片是怎么拍出来的。
It I don't I don't think there's any information on how the image was made.
但你可以想象，如果是使用半格相机之类的设备拍的。
But you could imagine that perhaps if it was, like, a half frame camera, for example.
你知道，那样的话颗粒感会更明显，或者用的是某种特别粗糙的胶片。
Right, you know, that the grain would be more prominent, or if it was, you know, a particular film, I guess, that that, you know, that was very grainy.
但这真的挺有意思的。
But it's really interesting.
你看到这张照片时，第一感觉是什么？
What what do you think when you look at that photo?
我一开始，就像我之前说的，觉得这完全是胶片照片的典型代表。
I I first of first I thought, as I said earlier, I thought it was the archetype of a of a film image, I think.
但你一说天啊，我反而觉得这可能是数码拍出来的。
But after you said, oh my goodness, that I I would have thought that would could have been a a digital image.
我当时就想，对啊。
I was like, yes.
如果你从这个角度看，很可能是有人在电影模拟软件里调整得过头了。
I mean if you look at it from that point of view, it very well be someone, you know, fiddling too much in their film emulation software.
我觉得这个观点特别有意思，因为我最近读过一篇PetaPixel上的文章，我们也会在节目笔记里附上链接，那篇文章讲的是如何模拟胶片颗粒，作者对什么是真正的优质胶片颗粒、数字噪点和胶片颗粒之间的区别做了很深入的分析。
I think that is a very interesting thought because I've read and we will also link to that article in the show notes, I've read a pretty recent article on PetaPixel about emulating film grain and the author did quite a good write up about what actually defines a good film grain emulation or good grain and what differences are between digital noise that looks like grain and certain other sorts of grain that you can get in an image.
这让我突然产生了一个想法，想问问你，你觉得电影模拟的还原度重要吗？
And it was very interesting because that gave me an idea to ask you, what do you think how important the accuracy of film emulation is?
因为我还发现了一个叫Dehancer的工具，据我了解，虽然我没用过，但它是款相当专业的电影模拟软件，特别注重细节，比如光晕效果——这我觉得很难模拟，因为你要在高光区域添加光晕，而且得尽量还原胶片原本的渲染方式。
Because I've also found a different tool which is called Dehancer, which is, as far as I can tell I've never used it, a pretty solid film emulation software, and they obsess about details like halation, which is very difficult to emulate I assume, because you basically add halos to highlights and stuff like that in a way that supposedly is exactly the way the film would render those halos.
我一直都在想，我们之前说过，要完全还原胶片效果可能没必要，但在你看来，电影模拟的精确度到底有多重要？
And I keep wondering how, I mean we've said before that probably perfection is not necessary to get a film log, but in your eyes how important is the accuracy of film emulation?
我觉得这跟我对最终成片的期待是紧密相关的。
I guess for me it's very closely linked to output.
不管我们把这个节目叫什么，对我来说，输出效果始终是其中一部分。
So whatever we end up calling this show, I think output is part of it for me.
对吧？
Right?
因为处理过程、整体效果，而对我来说，效果和输出媒介是紧密相关的。
So because the there's the processing element, the look, and then there's the but for me, the look is is strongly linked to the output medium.
所以从这个角度来说，我是在根据想要的最终效果来调整参数。
So if, yeah, it so so in that sense, I am trying to optimize for what it is that I want to have as an output.
昨天我做了一些原型测试，就是我正在做的那个项目——把照片打印出来，装裱好，再涂上树脂，让它们看起来更有质感。
So today yesterday, we we I was playing yesterday, doing some prototyping of of the project that I I'm trying to do where I'm I'm printing printing photos, mounting them, and then and then resining over them to make them yeah.
还想尝试用立体的方式进行装裱。
And and trying to mount them in a three d way.
所以这时候，我其实是在做原型测试。
So that is, at that point, I'm well, at that point, I'm prototyping.
对吧？
Right?
所以这就是我的出发点。
So that's the yeah.
这并不重要。
That it matters not.
但在那个项目里，我追求的是非常鲜艳的色彩。
But that in that project, I'm going for very vivid colors.
就是那种特别不真实的颜色。
And so, you know, super unnatural colors.
所以这是其中一点。
And so that's one thing.
今年早些时候我做那个Smithereens杂志时，刻意模仿了影印小报的质感。
In other when I did my my smithereens zine earlier this year, I was very much going for the look and feel of a a photocopied zine.
所以那让我走上了用粗糙、颗粒感强烈的黑白风格这条路，不过呢。
So that took me down the the path of very grainy, very crunchy black and white, but that yeah.
但那只是因为我想要那种效果。
But only because that was the the look I was after.
我发现，我很少会去追求某种胶片原本该有的色彩还原效果。
So I find that rare rarely am I after accuracy in terms of the how a film particular film stock would render an image.
更常见的是，我会关注那种感觉。
More often, I would be looking for the the feel of it.
图像所传达的情感氛围。
The the the emotional feel of an image.
对。
Yeah.
这挺有意思的。
It's very funny.
你问我用什么软件，除了 DxO 软件——现在它归 DxO 了——我还会用 Nik Collection。
You asked me which software I use, and apart from DxO software, happens to belong to DxO now, but I also use the Nik Collection.
大概很多人都知道 Nik Collection。
Everyone probably knows the Nik Collection.
顺便说一下，那个特别有名的 Snapseed 应用，也是当年 Nik Software 团队做的，后来被谷歌收购，再之后整个 Nik Collection 被 DxO 收购了。
On a side note, the very famous Snapseed app was also made by the same team Nik Software before it was bought by Google and then the whole Nik Collection got bought by DxO.
我觉得 Nik 的一个重点，并不是把数码相机拍的原始照片，尽可能逼真地模拟成某种胶片的效果。
One of the focuses I feel that Nik has is not so much the accuracy of taking a baseline image that you take with a digital camera and transform it in as close as possible emulation of a certain film stock.
Nik Collection 有很多更富创意的胶片风格效果。
Nik Collection has many more playful sorts of rendering film like images.
比如，你可以模拟网页冲印的效果，它还会给图片加上划痕、尘点之类的瑕疵。
For example, you can render as a web plate shot and it will actually add the imperfections and dust and so on to an image.
据我所知，他们根本不在乎你原始图片的色彩基准是什么。
As far as I know, they don't care at all about what color baseline you have in the source image.
我特别喜欢这一点，因为这正好符合你说的。
And I like that a lot because that caters to what you said.
你看到一张照片，会觉得，哦，这张要是做成棕褐色调该多棒。
You approach a certain image and think, oh, this would look really great, like for example as a sepia shot.
对。
Yeah.
或者那种褪色的黑白效果，就像上世纪早期的老照片那样。
And or a faded black and white shot that you find in photos from the early nineteen hundred something and so on.
我觉得这特别重要，因为我觉得——至少我们俩都是这样——根本不是想骗人，让人以为照片真是用胶片或湿版拍的。
And I think that's very important because I think, I mean at least the two of us, I feel like we are not trying to fool people into thinking that a shot is shot on film or wet plate or whatever.
我们是在追求某种特定的风格，我说的是我自己，但我觉得你也这么想。
Are going for a certain look and we will, I mean, I can only talk for myself, but I think you feel the same.
我肯定会说，这明明是数码拍摄、后期处理的，但我就是喜欢这个效果。
I would definitely say yes, this is shot digitally, it was post process, but I like the look.
追求某种风格，我从来不觉得有什么好羞愧的。
There is nothing I would never be ashamed of going for a certain look.
所以我觉得这些工具能帮我们轻松实现想要的效果，不用自己费劲去调。
So I think those tools are a means to get a certain look in a way that keeps me from having to fiddle with it.
比如，我根本不知道怎么在 Photoshop 或 Affinity Photo 里做出湿版照片那种瑕疵，或者光晕效果。
Because I don't have, for example, wet plate imperfections or light, I have no idea how to do a light leak in Photoshop or Affinity Photo.
不会，我要真想加这种效果，直接用手机App往上叠一个就行了。
No, I would just use an app on my phone and add one on top if I'm gonna do that.
不过你说得对。
But it's yeah, you're right.
所以我觉得，这正是我特别想和你一起做这个播客系列的原因之一。
So I think I mean, this is one of the reasons I really wanted to do this series of podcasts with you because yeah.
能深入探讨这个话题，还能有这份闲暇坐下来好好聊一聊，真的挺难得的。
To explore this and to have the luxury of having this conversation and the ability to enjoy having this conversation.
当然，我既拍胶片，也拍数码照片。
Because, of course, I do shoot film, and I do shoot digital.
对我来说，关键在于我想达到什么样的效果。
And, you know, the the for me, it's about what I'm trying to achieve.
对吧？
Right?
有时候，胶片才是最好的选择。
And so sometimes that is best achieved with film.
我之前应该提过，有一次就纯粹为了拍一张照片。
So, like, I I'm sure I've mentioned before, you know, just had to shot.
有个书架。
There's a bookcase.
我知道这是个音频节目，大家看不到，但你能看到我。
I know this is an audio podcast, so people can't see that, but you can see me.
镜头外头有个书架，上面放着一本相册，全是方方正正的黑色相框，是我家2019年去法国旅行时拍的假期照片。
So just out so just out of shot is a a bookcase which has a little photo album on it, which is all in stacks square, with the black frame, which is my holiday album from our family holiday in 2019 when we toured France.
那就是我想要的效果。
And that was what I want.
我一开始就想好了。
I set out.
我问自己，这次旅行，我到底想用摄影记录点什么？
I thought, what do I want to do with my photography this holiday?
这就是我想做的事。
That's the thing I want to do.
这就是我想拍出来的风格。
That's the look I want.
这就是我想用的拍摄方式。
That's the way I want to shoot.
那趟旅行特别开心，能留下这样一本相册，真的特别珍贵。
And I had a great time, and that's an amazing, yeah, an amazing thing for me to have that photo album like that.
所以，说实话，我不觉得有必要装成别人。
So, yeah, I don't feel the need to pretend I'm something I'm not.
我其实挺关心别人是怎么做事的，但更吸引我的是他们怎么走到最后的结果，而不是单纯的技术本身。
I don't you know, I'm I'm always interested in people's processes, but I'm interested in in the people's processes possibly be more because of how they get to the output rather than the craft itself.
我觉得
I think
这很有意思，不好意思。
That's a very interesting I'm sorry.
我不是故意要打断你。
I didn't want to interrupt you.
没事。
No.
你继续说。
No.
请说。
Go ahead.
你请说。
Go ahead.
书上说这是个很有趣的观点，因为我有不少摄影集，里面都是埃利奥特·厄威特和那些大师、马格南摄影师的作品，那些书的制作方式，基本上都是通过某种摄影技术把照片转印出来，才能真正印成书。
It says that's a very interesting point because, I mean, I have a number of photo books with shots by Elliot Erwitt and, you know, the legends, the Magnum people, and the way those books were produced were more or less in some sort of photographic way to, you know, transfer it to so that you can actually print those books.
但今天你看，尤其是摄影集，我都不知道还有多少人会坚持用传统方式印书了。
And today, I mean, if you look at books today, especially photo books, there is I'm not aware of a lot of bookmakers that will still print books in a traditional way.
他们更可能用数字流程来做排版、布局这些事。
They will very likely use digital processes to typeset a book and layout the book and so on.
所以当你提到成果很重要时，这正是我感兴趣的地方——就像你一样，我也特别喜欢拍照后能拿到实实在在的东西。
So when you say the output is very important, that's one of the things that I'm interested in, because like you, I'm a friend of having a palpable result when I take a photo.
我想出摄影集，我想有实体照片。
I want to have a photo book, I want to have a print.
以前我大量用胶片拍照的时候，就曾为赫尔辛基的场景专门做过一系列作品。
And when it comes to that, I feel like I've made a scene about Helsinki when I still shot a lot of film.
那时候那个圈子里的照片都太小了，根本看不清细节。
In that scene the images were so small that it was hard to see the characteristics.
那不是四开尺寸，给那些使用英制单位的听众做个参考。
It wasn't a four size, which is for the listeners in imperial countries.
差不多是信纸大小，只是再高一点，
That's almost like a letter format, a little taller, a little
窄一点。
narrower.
窄一点。
Narrower.
如果你在图片旁边加了文字，又没把整页都印出来，那从胶片扫描出来的效果就会大打折扣，细节和颗粒感都丢了。
And I mean if you have text with the images and don't print the whole page, then the output that you get from scanned film negatives loses a lot of its charm, because you miss the subtleties, you miss the grain.
如果打印质量不够顶尖，色调也容易全垮掉。
Sometimes the tonality goes down the drain if the print is not really, really very high quality.
比如说，拿你的6×12相机来说，
I mean, how do you I mean, let's say, let's take your six by 12 camera.
你觉得该怎么还原这些照片？
How do you think you will reproduce the images that you get?
你会在暗房里冲印这些照片吗？
Will you print them in a dark room?
你是打算把图像扫描成数字文件，然后用打印机输出，还是有别的办法？
Will you digitize the images and then try to, you know, print them digitally or what's the approach?
这正是我接下来想尝试的，因为还没用这台相机做过完整的输出项目。
So that is, that's something I'm still looking forward to do because I haven't done a proper output project yet with that camera.
但我当初买它，主要就是想做出高细节的打印效果。
But the idea behind it and one of the reasons for buying it in the first place is to be able to do highly detailed prints.
所以短期内，我的目标是用这台相机做出几张特别清晰、细节丰富的照片，每一张都做到顶级质量。
So my my goal in the short term with that camera is to get a handful of prints that are that are really sharp, lots and lots of detail, and to have those as good quality single prints.
说到尺寸，我其实也在想，这事儿挺有意思的。
And when I say think about size, I guess I think about a size that is, you know, it's interesting.
具体该选多大呢？因为没有现成的纸张比例能匹配——负片比例是2:1，不是常见的3:2那种。
So how would I in terms of size, because there's not a single there's not a paper ratio that would work, because the ratio of negative is two to one rather than a three to two or something like that.
如果你想象一下，把一张2:1比例的图像印在A3大小的纸上，大概就是我想要的尺寸了。
But if you could imagine printing a two to one image on a sheet of paper that's, let's say, an A3 size, possibly, you know, that would be kind of where I'd be at for a small
大概40厘米乘20厘米吧。
Sort like 40 centimeters, 40 centimeters to 20 centimeters.
差不多就是这样，这样的尺寸挺好的。
Something like that, yeah, something like that would be good.
我想想，或者我该怎么操作呢？
I think, Or maybe, how would I run that?
这么说吧，按美国的尺寸来算，大概15英寸左右。
Yeah, so that would be, in American terms, I don't know, maybe as much as 15 inches, about 15 inches.
对。
Yeah.
15英寸。
15
英寸。
inches.
7.5英寸宽。
By by seven and a half inches.
我觉得这可能是我愿意使用的最小尺寸了。
And I think that would probably be the smallest I would want to put.
我可以想象，就用一个文件夹装着这样的图片。
I could imagine having just, you know, a folder with images like that.
我可以设想收集一小批这样的图片，打印出来放进文件夹里，按这个尺寸，可以一页页翻看，细细欣赏其中的细节，凑近了看。
I could imagine making a collection of of images, a small number possibly, and having them printed out and keeping them in a folder and then at that size, and you could you could flick through them and you could marvel at the detail and look at them close-up.
我觉得，这应该就是我想要达到的效果。
And, you know, I think I think that would be the output I would be aiming for.
我预计这会是一种数码打印作品。
My my expectation is that that would be some kind of digital print.
我觉得最终得在纸张类型上做个权衡，因为不知为什么，用这台相机拍出来的照片，我特别想试试不同种类的纸。
And I think that at some point, there would be a trade off between the type of paper I would like to use, because I think with that camera, for some reason, I don't know why, but for that with that camera specifically, I I feel that I'd like to experiment with different types of paper.
当然，有些纸能呈现出更多细节和更强的对比。
So some of those will render more detail, of course, and more contrast.
另一些则对比柔和、细节较少，尤其是那种棉质纸。
Others will be softer contrast and and less detail as you get more into, what do you call them, rag papers.
我对纸张其实了解不多。
I don't even know much about paper.
我很期待去学习，看看每一张打印作品是怎么做出来的。
I'm looking forward to learning and and learning about how individual prints can work.
对我来说，整个流程都会是混合式的。
That for I mean, all of it for me will be a a hybrid workflow.
没错，照片会用胶片拍摄。
So, yes, it will be shot on film.
画面会有非常丰富的细节，但之后会扫描成数字文件。
It'll have lots and lots of detail, but it will be scanned.
我不会选那种最便宜的普通JPEG扫描服务，像这种胶片我不会这么处理。
And, you know, I I won't be ordering, you know, the the cheapest standard JPEG scans with films like that.
我会用16位的TIFF文件，或者类似的高精度格式。
It'll be it'll be the 16 bit TIFFs or something like that.
你懂的。
You know?
所以这台相机是我特意选来尝试些新东西的，就是为了多给输出结果留点发挥空间。
So it is a camera I have I I am deliberately looking to do something different with, and to maximize opportunities to play with the output.
但话说回来，对我而言，这还是个混合模式。
But again, yeah, it's a blend for me.
我能想象用胶片拍完再加个胶片质感吗？
So, can I imagine shooting film through that and then putting a film look on it?
大概不行。
No, probably not.
不过可能会做一些数字调整，特别是为了更适合印刷。
But there would be some digital tweaking perhaps, especially to optimise for printing.
很多扫描件默认都是按屏幕显示优化的，这很正常。
So a lot of scans come out optimised for a screen, of course.
所以我希望能和扫描的人沟通，跟他们说：别按屏幕优化，能不能按印刷需求来扫？
So I would look to work with the person doing the scanning to say, no, please, can you scan these in a way that allows me to optimize for print?
我猜那样的话，对比度可能会低一点。
I would imagine that would have perhaps less contrast.
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当然，文件格式和细节的丰富程度也非常关键。
Certainly, the file format and the amount of detail is very important there as well.
我觉得吧，这确实需要双方协作。比如，我会把胶卷送到英国布里斯托尔的银盘实验室（Silver Pan Labs），交给邓肯处理。
And I think, yeah, I'd look part of me thinks that that's gonna be something of a collaboration, you know, between so so for for example, I send my films to Duncan at Silver Pan Labs in Bristol here in The UK.
邓肯还提供冲印服务，他可以直接打印照片。
Duncan also has a a printing service, and he can print.
我想象着，其实我之前可能已经跟他聊过这事了，冲印和优化这部分工作得跟他一起合作，直到我们俩都清楚该怎么操作，才能把照片冲印成我理想中的样子。
So I'm imagining that, I've probably even spoken to him about this already actually, that the work about printing and optimizing that would be a collaboration with him to get to a point where, you know, we both know what needs to be done to get the print coming out the way that I imagine it to be.
我觉得这听起来是个挑战。我是说，如果你看看市面上买得起的放大机，我能想到的最大尺寸大概是六乘九英寸，而六乘十二英寸的恐怕很难找到。
I think it sounds like a challenge because, I mean, if you look at the availability of enlargers that are affordable, the largest enlarger that I can think of is probably six by nine and then six by 12 is probably going to be quite hard to find.
基本上你需要的是大画幅，甚至更大的。
You need it basically, it's a large format and larger.
你需要一台能处理四乘五英寸底片的机器。
You need something that can take a four by five neg.
对。
Yeah.
而在暗房里操作，就得这么做。
And that's what you need to do that in a darkroom.
这真的挺有意思的。
Have again, this is this is really interesting.
我很想看看完全用胶片工艺做出来的成品是什么样子。
I would love to see the output of something like that, that's been done purely in an analog process.
但我自己完全没有兴趣进暗房去学这门手艺。
But I don't have any inclination, any desire to go into the dark room and to learn that craft.
我更愿意跟懂这门手艺的人合作，一起创作出点东西。
I'd far rather collaborate with somebody who has that craft and create something together.
这些年来，我慢慢了解了自己在摄影上的倾向，其实音乐上也是这样，我想我们之前聊过这事，虽然不确定是不是在这档播客里提过，但我们确实讨论过。
And it's it's just a thing that I've learned about me over the years, with regard to my photography, and also, incidentally, with music as well, and which I think you and I have spoken about, but I'm not sure if I don't think it was part of this podcast, but we have spoken about it.
我真正喜欢做的事其实很有限，我对其中的技术细节没那么感兴趣，这可能让很多听友觉得奇怪，因为我知道很多人就是爱摄影本身的一切。
And it I like to there's possibly only a narrow set of the things that I like to do, and I'm I'm less interested in the craft of it all, which to a to a lot of people listening might be a really odd concept because I know a lot of people love photography for all of the photography.
对吧？
Right?
整个过程的每一步，尤其是那个……
Every step of the process, especially in the yeah.
特别是用一些非传统工艺的时候。
Especially with alternative processes.
但就算是普通的胶片摄影，很多人也喜欢亲力亲为，每一步都自己来。
But even just with sort of, you know, normal analog photography, people like to be to be the person that does every step of the process.
但说实话，我早就不是这样了。
But, you know, that's just not where I'm at.
对。
Yeah.
我记得以前和一个朋友聊过，他也在那个Discord群里，就是Sunday '16那个群。
I think, I remember a conversation that I had with my friend who is also in on the Discord server and, Sunday '16 Discord.
我们刚认识的时候，我给他看过我拍的一些照片。
And I remember when we got to know each other, at some point I showed him some stuff that I shot.
我给他看了胶片拍的，也给他看了数码拍的，等等。
I mean, I showed him analog shots and digital shots and so on.
他说：对，这看起来完全就是你的风格。
And he said, yes, this looks like exactly your style.
他看到一张照片，我这才反应过来：咦，我原来还有自己的风格？
He saw some image and I was like, oh, I didn't know that I had a style.
这让我想到之前的问题——我们到底有没有必要让人分不清是不是胶片？到底要多逼真才算数？
So that was something that gave me, I mean, coming back to the question, do we actually try to fool people how accurate does stuff have to be to be considered film?
我觉得，人们最终会形成一种独特的风格。
I think what people develop is a certain style.
他们的作品集里可能包含好几种不同的风格。
And they might have different styles in their portfolio.
每个人都有自己表达想法的视觉语言。
They might have different creative languages to express in an image what they want to say.
但我觉得，当我用Nik Collection或者FilmPack这类软件时，它应该贴合我想拍的风格，不然就毫无意义。
But I feel like when I use a software like Nik Collection or FilmPack and so on, I think it should cater to the style that I want to shoot because otherwise it doesn't make any sense.
我的意思是，我可不会为了处理而处理照片。
I mean, I'm not into processing an image for the processing sake.
是的。
Yeah.
我希望得到那种类似HP5胶片特有的颗粒感和质感，尤其是在拍假日照片的时候。
I need to have a result that like you wanted to have this crunchiness in like HP5 ish sort of crunchiness in holiday images.
我也有同样的感觉，就是我特别喜欢某种影像风格，而且经常用它。
And I have exactly the same feeling that I want some certain image style that is what I like and that I use a lot.
这些工具都只是达成目标的手段。
All these tools are just a means to get there.
我之前想问你一件事：我们一直在聊后期调色，也谈到了如何用相机模拟来实现效果。
One thing that I wanted to ask you was we've been talking about tweaking stuff in post production and we've also been talking about how we can do stuff in camera with camera emulation.
但咱们不妨快速看看一个大多数人手头都有的东西——手机摄影。上一期我们提到想聊聊怎么低成本拍出胶片感，而大多数人其实都有手机，现在的手机摄像头性能都很强。
But let's let's quickly look at something that probably everyone has access to, and that's, you know, phone photography because I mean, last time we wanted to last episode we hinted that we want to discuss how to get a film look and do it inexpensively, and most people have a phone and most phones are quite capable cameras.
所以我想问问，你平时用哪些App？
So I would like to ask you what apps do you use.
你是iPhone用户，我是安卓用户，也许我们可以聊聊各自用什么手机App来实现特定的风格，还有哪些App可以直接输出JPEG，完全不用后期处理。
You're an iPhone user, I'm an Android user and maybe it could be an interesting conversation to see how what apps we use on the phones to achieve a certain look, and also what apps we use that produce JPEGs directly with no post processing.
你只能接受眼前的结果，别再纠结了。
You just have to take what you get and be done with it.
对。
Yeah.
这倒挺有意思的。
So, well, that's interesting.
让我想想。
So I let's think.
我得稍微理清楚一点，因为我现在拍的很多照片，或者说创作的很多图像，根本不是为了追求准确或写实。
Because I so I'll try and narrow it down a bit because a a lot of the photography that I'm doing at the moment or the image making I'm doing at the moment is is absolutely not about being accurate or realistic in any way.
明白。
Okay.
那这部分先放一边吧，因为就我们这次讨论来说，任何App都能把像素搅得乱七八糟。
So so I'll I'll put that to one side because I think, you know, for the purposes of this conversation, any any any app can do anything to break your pixels.
但我觉得我们真正聊的，其实是对像素做一点温和的优化，让画面呈现出某种特定的风格，对吧？
But I think what we're talking about here is is a gentle enhancement of pixels, isn't it, to give you a a a certain look.
我现在用的工具是Darkroom，当然这个会随时间变化，但我一直用这个应用。
So the the tools I go to right now, and this does change over time, but I do use an app called Darkroom.
这个应用最初是为手机开发的，但现在如果你有新款Mac电脑，也能用上了。
And this is an app that started out on phones, but it now is available if you have a modern Mac computer.
因为现在新出的Mac都用上了苹果自研芯片，和我的新电脑一样，所以很多应用都能在手机和电脑上通用。
You can actually use the same thing on your Mac because now now that you have Apple silicon in the the Macs that you can buy, as you do in your new computer and as I do in mine, then a lot of the apps will run the same.
所以现在Darkroom支持Mac、iPad和iPhone，这个我是付费使用的。
So Darkroom now runs across Mac, iPad, and iPhone, and that that's something that I pay for.
它自带一些非常实用的基础工具。
It's it's got some really good standard tools.
最近他们还新增了蒙版功能，这对他们来说算是挺新的突破。
And more recently, they've also added masking tools, which is quite a new thing for them.
它能处理原始RAW文件。
But they will process raw files.
也能处理JPEG图片。
They will process JPEGs.
它能直接读取你苹果照片库里的图片，我所有的照片都存在那儿。
They it'll read directly out of your Apple Photos library, which is which is where I keep all my images.
这真的特别方便。
So that's really helpful.
我不用再另外找地方存和处理照片了。
I don't have to have a separate place to do that.
我在所有设备上都能用。
Works on all the platforms I use.
而且它还有一些挺有意思的功能。
And, yeah, it has some it has some fun stuff as well.
现在它还加入了基于人工智能的蒙版功能。
So, yeah, it now has, you know, AI based masking.
能自动识别前景、背景、天空，各种元素都没问题。
It will find the foreground, the background, the the sky, whatever.
你懂的。
You know?
你还可以自己创建自定义蒙版。
And you can create your own masks yourself.
能创建的蒙版类型相当丰富。
Quite a range of masks you can create.
不只是径向或线性蒙版，你还能轻松创建明度蒙版之类的高级效果。
You're not just radial and linear masks, but you can create, luminosity masks and things like that just, you know, very easily.
所以我经常用它来做一些更细腻的调整，比如颜色之类的。
So that's one I use when I'm looking for more subtle adjustments to things like color, and what have you.
除此之外，如果你想添加渐变效果，比如色彩渐变。
Beyond that, if we're looking to add, possibly things like gradients, yeah, color gradients.
不过我们现在有点跑题了，因为这里开始涉及到不太写实的图像处理了。
And this is going off paced a bit now for this conversation because, yeah, this is where we're starting to get into the less realistic imagery.
但我确实用过一段时间叫Polar的App。
But I I have used, the app Polar for a while.
我以前是付费购买的，但他们现在改了收费模式。
And whilst I have paid for it in the past, they've moved to a different model now, a different payment model.
以前在那个应用里能用的一些功能，现在都没了。
And some of the things that I used to have access to in that app have been taken away.
所以我现在用得少了。
So I use that one less now.
不过我主要还是用 Affinity Photo 来做重头的后期处理。
But I use Affinity Photo, of course, as well as as my real heavy lift.
但我一般不会用它来做批量处理。
But I don't I don't tend to do bulk editing in that.
我可不会坐那儿用 Affinity Photo 一张一张地修 150 张照片，那也太折磨人了。
You know, I'm not gonna sit down with Affinity Photo and one by one go through a 150 photos and edit it because that that would be very, very painful.
所以目前我主要还是用 Darkroom。
You know, so so probably darkroom at the moment.
我还在 iPad 上用另一个应用，名字老是想不起来。
The other one I like on the iPad, is and I can never remember what it was.
是 Pixelmator 家的某个应用。
It's one of the Pixelmator apps.
是 Pixelmator Photo 吗？
It Pixelmator Photo, maybe?
因为我觉得 Pixelmator Pro 是另一个东西。
Because I think Pixelmator Pro is something different.
我对 Pixelmator 各个应用的名字总是搞混，但其中一个确实能在 iPad 上用。
I get very confused with the Pixelmator apps about what one is called what, but it's one of the ones that works on the iPad.
你平时会用某个相机应用，直接拍出 iPhone 特定的风格吗？
Do do you also use a certain camera app to get iPhone get, like like, certain looks, you know, instantly?
对。
Yes.
但得先
But having to
不用后期处理？
not process?
对。
Yes.
但并不是为了追求特别写实的效果。
But not to for for the purposes of being particularly realistic.
所以，当我用手机拍照时，要么就用系统自带的原生相机应用。
So, let's I mean, if if I'm using my phone, I either use the basic standard camera app that comes with the phone.
如果只是想拍出看起来比较自然的照片，或者想玩点风格，我就会用像 Hipstomatic 这样的应用。
If I just want to take something that looks reasonably realistic or I use something like Hipstomatic, right, to to really play.
如果我用我的奥林巴斯相机，我总是会拍一张有那种风格的照片。
If I'm using my little Olympus camera, I always have that shot.
然后相机内部会自动处理一下 JPEG，具体怎么处理要看设置。
So with some JPEG engine processing on it, depending on what
同时我也会同时保存原始 RAW 文件。
I want to, and also capture the raw file underneath that.
所以原始文件一直都在。
So it's always there.
但问题始终是，什么才算真实，什么又不算真实。
But then again, the question is always what's realistic and what's not realistic.
我用过几次霍尔格相机，说实话，我对霍尔格照片的看法跟格雷厄姆一样——简直太差了。
I mean, I shot with a Holger a few times and I mean, those images I tend to be on Graham's side when it comes to Holgers because, oh my goodness, are they rubbish.
但当你真去看那些霍尔格拍的照片时，我跟你看史蒂薇·尼克斯那张照片时的感觉完全一样。
But then when you look at the Holger images, I get the exact same feeling that you got when you looked at the Stevie Nicks photo.
我总以为这照片后期处理得太过了，结果一查，这居然是原片，没修过。
I was like, I always think this is so over processed, but it's actually a real Holger image.
我明白为啥有人觉得用霍尔格相机挺酷，但老实说，真打动不了我。
And oh my goodness, I I know why people think it's a good idea to shoot Holger, but it's it doesn't rock my boat to be perfectly honest.
很多人用霍尔格相机时，都会把胶片过冲处理。
Well, often people will push the film they put through Holgers.
因为霍尔格的光圈很小，过冲能让照片更粗粝、颗粒更重。
So so that will that will make them crunchier and grainier because the Holger, you know, has a small aperture.
懂吗？
Know?
尤其是室内拍摄时，你得把胶片过冲两到三档，才能拍出点像样的东西来。
And if especially if you take it indoors or something like that, you end up having to push your film two or three stops just to get anything out of it at all.
没错，就是这样。
So there yeah.
确实，这类情况挺多的。
Definitely, there's a lot of stuff like that.
如果你在盛夏带着你的Holger去海滩，没错。
If you take your Holger, though, to the beach in the middle of summer Yeah.
那就是你。
That's you
拍的时候背对太阳，这样就不会让塑料镜头产生那种夸张的光晕，其实能拍出非常浓郁、不那么颗粒感强的照片。我几年前在克罗地亚拍过一些，效果简直太棒了。
shoot away from the sun so that you don't get crazy plastic lens light leaks all the way through your photos, actually, you can get some really rich, not, know, not grainy shots, which I have some from a few years back when I was in Croatia, and they're just amazing.
就是那种阳光照耀下的绝美照片，你知道的。
They're just beautiful sunlit shots, you know.
对。
Yeah.
不过我用的是安卓上一个叫Vignette的App，我很喜欢，因为它有好几种玩具相机的效果，还有那种所谓的胶片模拟功能。
But then the thing is I use an app on Android which is called Vignette, and it's I like it a lot because it does have different, you know, toy camera camera programs and so on, and some sort of film emulation, if you want to call it that.
每次我们聊到胶片模拟，我觉得我们都同意，这根本不是追求真实还原。
I mean, every time we talk about film emulation, I think we both agree that it's not about accuracy.
Vignette 也是同样的道理。
And that's the same thing with Vignette.
它能给你一种类似 Holga 相机的那种感觉。
It gives you a Holga esque sort of look.
我喜欢它，因为现在大多数手机，哪怕是几年前的老款，都能实时预览画面。
And I like it because you just, you know, most modern phones, even phones that are a few years old, they can actually show you an image in real time.
没错。
Yes.
比如，你给一张黑白照片加个红色滤镜，就可以用 Vignette 这类 App 当作拍摄胶片时的预览工具。
If you, for example, apply a red filter to a black and white image, can use an app like Vignette, for example, as a preview device when shooting film.
如果你想决定该用什么颜色的滤镜来让天空变暗，有个预览工具能直接看到效果，确实很有帮助。
Because if you want to figure out what color filter to use to, for example, darken the sky, I think it's quite useful to have a preview device to simply look at the effect
而且
of And the
从这个角度来说，能用手机上的应用直接拍下屏幕上看到的画面，确实挺方便的。
in that sense, it's nice that you can actually use an app on a phone that will simply shoot the image that you see on the screen and you get it.
但这种感觉和用胶片相机拍照不一样，毕竟你拍完看不到成片，除非你用的是拍立得胶片。
I mean that's not the same feeling you get when shooting a film camera because you don't have a developed image except maybe if you shoot instant film.
不过我喜欢的是，花很少的钱，就能在随身携带的手机上获得胶片的质感。
But I like the idea that you get a film look for very little money on a phone and on a device that you have with you most of the time.
这一点我特别喜欢。
So that's something that I like a lot.
我们之前提到过的一个应用是？不好意思？
One of the apps that we I'm sorry?
不用，你继续说。
No.
它有个‘不’字。
It's got a no.
你接着说。
You go ahead.
我们俩都提到过的一个应用，我觉得是 Snapseed。
So one of the apps that we both think that we both discussed, I think, was Snapseed.
对。
Yes.
我之前提过，这款软件写得非常好，原本是 Nik Software 开发的，就是做 Nik 套件的那家公司。
And I mentioned that earlier because it's a very well written piece of software, which was originally written by Nicks Software that wrote the Nik Collection, as I mentioned earlier.
我特别喜欢 Nik 套件的地方，除了功能强大之外，就是在常规调整之外，还能用 Snapseed 做出很地道的胶片感效果。
And what I like a lot about the Nik Collection apart from being a really powerful post processing software is that among the normal adjustment that you can do, you can actually achieve a really nice film look with Snapseed.
没错，确实可以。
Yeah, you can.
Snapseed 真挺特别的，对吧？
Snapseed is a really interesting one, isn't it?
它功能很丰富，能做各种类型的调整。
Because it gives you quite a lot of capability, but it does all types of changes.
你可以轻轻调整，让效果很含蓄，也可以大胆折腾，玩到极致。
So you can have some things that are quite subtle, or you can really go nuts with it.
而且这一切都内置好了。
And it's all yeah.
所有这些功能都集成在里头了。
And all of that's built in.
你就想，我到底想用哪个效果。
This is like you're just like, what do I want to yeah.
你看到工具栏，就会想，我要不要用这个普通工具？
You get a tool palette, and it's like, do I want a tool as a normal tool?
很多应用里，这些功能都分散在不同菜单里，对吧？
In a lot of apps, they're, like, in different menu areas, aren't they?
没错。
Right?
有的是狂野的工具，有的是精细的工具，全混在一起。
It's like the crazy tools versus the the the the the, the more delicate tools.
但在Snapseed里，它们都挨着放，你一看，哦，就点这个。
In Snapseed, it's just like they're next to each other, and you just go, oh, I hit that one.
天啊，这功能也太夸张了。
Oh, that's gone nuts.
我就是点了这个。
Oh, I hit that one.
不是。
No.
根本看不出有什么区别。
That's hard hardly tell the difference at all.
说到手机上的图片编辑，他们算是最早推出局部编辑功能的App之一。
So it it was, and, of course, in terms of editing on a phone, they were one of the first it was one of the first apps that gave you selective editing.
在Lightroom或者其他大型App还没推出手机版之前，Snapseed就已经用了Nik公司开发的U点技术——你点一个中心点，效果就会从那里自然向外淡化。
So, yeah, long before Lightroom was available on phones or or other or other big apps, Snapseed took the I think they call it the or they used to call it the u point technology that Nik had developed where you select a point which is the center of your effect and fades away from that point.
DxO收购Nik全家桶之后，把U点技术整合进了PhotoLab，那效果简直像魔法一样。
And it's very close to magic how that When DxO bought the Nik Collection Nik basically, they integrated the UPoint technology into their PhotoLab.
这是我用过最强大的工具之一。
It's one of the most powerful tools that I know.
用起来特别简单，能很快出效果。
It makes it very easy to get really, really great results very quickly.
我之前说过，我跟这个产品没有任何合作关系。
As I said before, I have no affiliation.
我是付费用户，但真的特别喜欢这个功能。
I'm a paying customer, but I really love that feature.
我们之前聊过 Snapseed，我觉得以后可以做个挑战，你就在英国，我在德国，咱们各自拍些照片，只用 Snapseed 来处理，毕竟这是咱们共同的工具。
But I have a I mean, we talked about Snapseed and I think one thing that we need to do on some future episode is to go on a challenge, a photo walk, you in The UK, I in Germany, and we should try to shoot some photos and process them just with Snapseed, because that's the common denominator that we have.
你有
You have an
确实，太好了，就这么办。
That's true, yeah, please.
咱们用的工具几乎一模一样。
We could expect to have the same we basically have the same, almost the same tool.
我觉得可以专门做一期，出去拍照，用 Snapseed 调出我们各自喜欢的胶片风格。
And I think for one episode we should go out and try to shoot some images and try to make, give them the look with Snapseed that we consider is our film look or our film style that we like.
我觉得这事儿咱们真得好好做一做。
I think that's something that we really need to do.
我有个挺大胆的想法，你听听看觉得怎么样。
And I have one theory that is quite provocative, but let's see how you think about it.
我用的是Pixel 7 Pro，相机性能非常强。
I have the theory that I have a Pixel seven Pro, which has a very capable camera.
你用的是最新款的iPhone。
You have one of the latest iPhones.
是的，我用的是13 mini。
Yeah, I have a thirteen minutei.
对。
Yeah.
我的观点是，用这些手机根本没法真正还原胶片的质感，因为手机的计算摄影处理出来的画面，是胶片根本拍不出来的。
My theory is that it will be impossible to properly emulate a film look with those phones because the computational photography that the phones do creates images that you would never be able to get with film.
比如逆光拍摄，你能看到的细节，我敢说没有任何胶片能同时保留高光又做到这种程度，手机的算法实在太夸张了。
For example, if you have backlight shots, you can see details that I don't know any film that would give you the same details while preserving highlights and so on, because the computational stuff is bonkers.
没错。
Yes.
我真的搞不懂他们是怎么做到的。
You get I have no idea how how they do it.
我觉得，要是拿这种照片当基础，想做出胶片的感觉，我敢打赌，只要有人用最新款支持HDR的手机拍一张照片，再直接用胶片模拟软件处理，不先压暗阴影或过曝高光的话。
And I think, you know, using that image as a base to create a film look, I'm pretty sure that if someone uses a very modern smartphone with HDR capabilities and just transforms it in some sort of film emulation software without priorly crushing blacks and whites and so on.
我敢肯定我们可以做个盲测，我一眼就能看出哪些照片是手机拍的。
I'm pretty sure we can do a blind test, I can tell you which images were shot with the phone and
这本身倒是个挺有意思的挑战，对吧？
Oh, that's an interesting challenge in itself, isn't it?
那这就成了两个挑战了。
That's two challenges then.
一个是出去拍摄，另一个是测试你，看你能不能分辨出来。
One is to go out and shoot, and the other one is is is to test you, and and whether or not you can recognize these things.
听起来挺有意思的。
That sounds interesting.
天哪。
Oh my goodness.
我刚才说什么了？
What did I say?
我觉得你刚刚主动提出要这么做。
I think you just volunteered really do that.
主动提出要展示一下。
Volunteered to show off.
对吧？
Right?
这下我可抓住你了，是你自己答应的。
And now we'll I catch you volunteered.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
我是说对。
I'm Yeah.
我乐意接受这个挑战，如果没成功，我也认了。
I'll be happy to, you know, accept the challenge and and also the defeat if I don't make it.
是的。
Yeah.
没关系。
That's okay.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得挺有意思的，看看这个趋势会怎么发展，以前手机的摄像头没那么夸张，但现在画质简直太强了。
I think it's it's going to be very interesting to see how that develop develops because phones used to have cameras that were not, you know, over the top, but nowadays they are over the top in terms of quality.
我那次升级可是跳了一大步，大概隔了五六年。
I had a big jump, about a five, six year jump.
我之前用的是iPhone 6s，别问我那是哪一年的型号，后来直接跳到了iPhone 12。
So I had an iPhone 6s, and don't ask me what year that was from, but I jumped from that to a 12.
iPhone 6s拍出来的照片，我特别喜欢那种感觉。
The the iPhone six s, I I used to love the way that that shot photos.
iPhone 12我真用不惯，完全不合适。
The iPhone 12, I couldn't get on with it at all, really.
它性能确实超强，手机里自带长焦镜头，这点太棒了。
It was amazing it was amazingly powerful, and it was great to have a telephoto lens in a phone, that was just built in.
但苹果的图像处理方式，我实在接受不了。
But the way that the Apple image processing worked, I couldn't get on with that.
对我来说，那效果太过了，说是HDR吧，又不只是HDR，它把所有效果全堆一块儿了。
It was for me, it was too much, I'd say, HDR, but it wasn't h it it wasn't that it it it took all of those things.
因为它会连拍好多张，本质上是在做曝光叠加。
And because it took many, many shots, it was effectively exposure stacking everything.
苹果默认图像处理里的曝光叠加和锐化，我真没法适应。
So the exposure stacking that it did and the sharpening that it did in the Apple standard image pipeline, it it was not something I could get on with.
如果你用其他应用来拍照，那确实不错，但我自己就是用不惯苹果原生的相机。iPhone 13 也差不多，不过说实话，我平时随身带着一台专业数码相机，所以对手机拍照的依赖没别人那么大。
So it was great if you used other tools, you know, to shoot with other apps, but I couldn't get on with the Apple The iPhone 13 is is similar, but, I mean, I don't I because I carry around a dedicated digital point and shoot pretty much all the time anyway, I'm I'm less heavily reliant on the phone perhaps than some other people are these days.
所以我特别喜欢接受挑战。
So, yeah, I'm I'm definitely up definitely up for challenges.
这挺有意思的，尤其是挑战内容是出去拍照，毕竟冬天晚上跟朋友聊摄影是件很惬意的事。
That's always fun, especially if the challenges are actually to go and take some photos because it's one thing to sit around on a winter's evening, you know, and chat with your friends about photography, which is a lovely thing to do.
你知道的。
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
我做播客是因为喜欢，不是为了别的。
I do podcasting because I enjoy it, not be yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这挺好的。
So so that's cool.
但走出去拍照，享受这个过程，完全是另一回事。
But it is it is a different thing to go out and take photos and enjoy that process as well.
所以，我确实很乐意接受一些挑战、任务之类的事情。
So, yeah, I'm definitely up for some challenges and assignments and things like that.
那我们记下来。
So we keep that in mind.
而且，等这期节目安排出来的时候，我们真得好好做一做，我觉得。
And, yeah, let's see when this episode will come up, but we we really really need to do this, I think.
没错。
Yeah.
这事没得商量。
There is no way around it.
我们还没提到一个话题，就是刚才几分钟前我们聊到的，手机的数码相机拍出来的照片，哪怕你再怎么拼命修图，胶片相机也很难拍出同样的效果。
One thing that we didn't a topic that we didn't touch yet, was we we discussed just a few minutes ago how the digital cameras of a phone can shoot images that you will very likely not be able to create with a film camera, even if you dodge and burn like crazy.
现代相机拍出来的画面，简直有点不真实了。
It's almost on the verge of being unrealistic what you see in an image of a modern camera.
我想问的是，当你想到胶片拍摄时，不只是考虑胶片本身的特性，还包括镜头特性、不同相机带来的独特效果——有没有哪一种效果是你觉得后期或数字方式根本很难还原的？
My question is, when you think about analog shots, especially not only considering the film characteristics, but every characteristic like lens characteristics and characteristics that you get by shooting certain cameras, Is there something that springs to your mind where you would say it would be very difficult to achieve that in post or digitally in some way?
有没有哪种效果，你认为在数字图像里根本不可能实现？
Is there something that you would say is even impossible to achieve in digital images?
我觉得几年前确实有，尤其是高光部分和高光溢出的问题。
I think a few years ago, yes, especially around highlights and highlight clipping.
但现在的数字相机在这方面好多了，传感器和内部处理技术都进步太多了，高光溢出已经不像以前那么严重了。
But but less of an issue today with, yeah, with highlight clipping in digital cameras than it than it was because the sensors are that much better and because the the processing in the cameras is that much better.
所以，如果你拍的时候过曝了，高光部分已经丢失，那确实很难补救。
So I think I think, certainly, if you have got if you have overexposed an image and you've clipped the highlights, then you're you're gonna struggle to get back.
但这种情况，说到底还是拍摄技术的问题，对吧？
But that's that's just bad workmanship, isn't it?
那用数码相机，有没有什么是你能做到的？
So with the digital camera, is there anything that I can do?
这真有意思。
That's really interesting.
这真是个好问题。
That's a really good question.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我觉得如果我足够精通数字工具，现在完全可以通过数字相机搭建一套流程，还原出胶片的绝大多数效果。
I feel that if I was skilled enough at using digital tools, I could probably, at this point, create a workflow to with a digital camera that would allow me to emulate pretty much most things in film.
因为数字文件里包含的信息实在太丰富了。
Because there's so much information there.
只要你能接触到这些数据，真正限制你的不是技术，而是你自己的能力。
And and if you can get to it, you know, and and and the the the the bottleneck, the the challenge, the constraint would be my skill, not the technology.
我觉得技术本身并不是障碍。
I don't think the technology is the blocker.
我觉得障碍在我自己。
I think it's me that's the blocker.
你知道我说什么吗？
I you know what I would say?
我觉得是物理规律限制了它。
I would say physics is the blocker.
嗯，有道理。
Okay.
好吧。
Alright.
比如我的朋友曼努埃尔和乔纳森，他们用大画幅相机，这正是他们的专长和热爱。
Because, for example, take my friends Manuel and Jonathan, they are large format shooters, know, that's their pedigree, that's what they love to do.
如果你看他们的照片，就会发现某些大画幅镜头特有的光学特性，根本没法在后期里完全复刻出来——比如那种镜头带来的背景桶形畸变。
If you look at their shots and see the lens characteristics that certain large format lenses have, I think there is no way to get, you know, to achieve and post what you get by having certain lens with certain distortions, with barrel distortions in the background.
就算现在手机能模拟浅景深，看起来也假得很。
Because I mean, even if I look at modern phones that can simulate shallow depths of field, it's not very convincing.
没错，确实如此。
No, that's true.
对，说得在理。
Yeah, good point.
是的。
Yeah.
所以就算有传感器这些技术，我觉得要看到真正突破还得等很久。
So one of the things even with sensors and stuff like that, I think it will take a long time until we will see.
也许靠人工智能能好很多，但我还是怀疑，像用特定镜头、特定成像面积拍出来的效果——毕竟大画幅的成像面积是4x5甚至更大——这种物理层面的东西很难复制。
Maybe with AI it will get much better, but I still have my doubts if what you get physically by using a certain lens and using a certain projection area, I mean large format obviously you have a 4x5 or even bigger projection area.
我觉得有些东西用数字方式很难做到。
I think there are certain things that would be very hard to
想象不出来。
imagine.
你说得对。
So that's you're right.
我之前还真没想到这一点。
And I'd missed a trick there, hadn't I?
我之前只关注了最终画面的颜色、质感、颗粒这些方面。
Because I was considering only really the final look in terms of color, texture, grain, that kind of thing.
我之前没考虑到镜头本身的特性。
And I wasn't considering the the lens characteristics.
这一点我完全同意你的看法。
So, absolutely with you on that one.
欢迎指正。
Happy to be corrected.
我以前特别喜欢用中画幅相机拍一些普通的照片。
I always used to love just shooting just just general stuff with a medium format camera.
我那时候用的是勃朗尼卡，一款6×4.5的相机，标配镜头是75毫米的定焦镜头。
When I had the, Bronica, which is a six four five camera, of course, the standard prime lens on that, the normal lens, if you like, was a 75 millimeter.
能拥有一台操作方便的单反相机，标配就是75毫米镜头，那感觉真是太棒了。
And that was fantastic to have a relatively easy to handle SLR camera that shot 75 millimeter sorry, shot with a 75 millimeter lens as standard lens.
那种镜头拍出来的效果确实很不一样。
And to get the that did give a very different look.
是的。
Yeah.
主要是景深，还有你提到的前后空间压缩感。
Mostly around, of course, as you say, depth of field, and then the perception of compression, you know, from front to back.
我说‘压缩感’是因为要是真去细讲这背后的技术原理，肯定有人会跳出来说我错了——网上的人就爱这样。
And I say perception of compression because I know if I try and describe what actually happens there, somebody will tell me I'm wrong, because the internet likes to do that.
而且我确实会错。
And because I'll be wrong.
我也不太懂这个。
It's not my strong suit either.
所以我们干脆交给专业人士，只管欣赏成片的效果就好。
So we leave that to the pros and just admire how nice it looks.
没错。
Yeah.
我以前还真想过买一台新的富士中画幅相机，就是冲着更大的传感器去的。
And and and I think that's I have in the past thought about buying with the one of these new Fuji medium format cameras for precisely that reason, just to get that bigger sensor.
毕竟，咱们都用富士相机，这点大家都知道，它们通常配的是APS画幅传感器，而不是我们常说的全画幅35毫米传感器。
Because, of course, you know, both of us shooting Fuji cameras, as as everybody will know, they typically have APS sized sensors, rather than what we would call full frame, 35 mil, sensors.
所以说实话，我确实有时候在打印出来的东西上能看出差别。
So to to you know, that I do see a difference sometimes in print.
而且，这种差别主要体现在输出效果上。
And, again, it's in the output.
但在屏幕上，我一般不太容易注意到。
On on a on a screen, I don't tend to see it so much.
不过如果你看到一些打印出来的照片，我就想到一张特别明显的。
But if you if you have some printed output, there's there's a photo I'm picturing in my head.
那张照片挂在家里的其他地方，拍的是我妻子和当时还很小的女儿。
It's hanging on the wall elsewhere in the house, and it's just one of my wife and our daughter who was very young at the time.
每次看到它，我都忍不住说：哇，真棒。
And I look at it and go, oh, wow.
我很有把握，这张照片是用一支50毫米镜头、在一台35毫米胶片单反上拍的。
And I'm pretty confident it was shot with a 50 millimeter lens just on a 35 millimeter SLR.
那是张黑白胶片，大概是HP5。
It's a black and white film, probably HP five.
这张照片有一种压缩感，我用我那支很棒的富士35毫米f/1.4镜头怎么也拍不出来，我可喜欢这支镜头了。
And it has an element of compression in it that you just don't get or I can't get even with my really lovely Fuji 35 mil 1.4 lens, and I love that lens.
对吧？
Right?
顺便问一下，你有那支原版的35毫米镜头吗？
Do you have do you have that lens, by the way?
就是原来的35毫米那支。
The original thirty five one
没有。
point No.
我没有，不过我想提一下，我有一支56毫米f/1.2的镜头。
I don't, but I wanted to mention that I have the 56 millimeter dot f dot what's it?
f/1.2。
F 1.2.
1.2。
1.2.
没错。
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得那种感觉和我朋友说过的一样——他们看到我用56毫米、光圈开到1.2拍的照片时，都说这看起来几乎像全画幅，甚至像大画幅的效果。这镜头确实有个特别的临界点，开到最大光圈时会有一点桶形畸变，但正是这种效果让它成为富士最棒的镜头之一。
And I think it's probably the same feeling that you get when I think that the only time that my friends said, oh, that looks almost like a full frame, like a like a like a large format shot was when I shot the 56 millimeters wide open at 1.2 and does get if you there is some sort of sweet spot where you get some sort of barrel distortion with that lens and it's one of the nicest lenses I think you can buy by Fuji.
所以，那种感觉是一样的。
So the feeling is the same.
很少有情况能让你感受到现在有些人说的‘画面弹出来’的效果——那种主体特别突出的感觉，但这种感觉更像一种氛围。
There are very few occasions when you get this what some modern people call pop in an image where something stands out and you don't have It's more like a feeling.
你很难说清楚为什么它这么明显，而这种效果在小传感器上确实很难实现，大概这也是我们唯一需要去模仿胶片的地方，因为根本找不到现成的大画幅传感器。
You can't really explain why it's so pronounced and that is probably what Yeah, we will have a hard time doing that on small sensors and that's probably the only thing that we have to emulate film because there is no large format sensors that are readily available.
确实如此。
Indeed.
确实如此。
Indeed.
那么，我们到底学到了些什么呢？
So, well, which so what have we learned here?
我想我们差不多该收尾了。
So we we probably should start to wrap up.
我正看着屏幕上所有的时钟，虽然这场对话我特别享受，但现在已经超过一个小时了。
I'm looking at all the clocks on my screen at the moment, and as we're I'm really enjoying this conversation, but we're just over an hour at this point.
所以为了听众着想，我们还是结束这场对话吧。
So so, possibly for the listeners' sake, we should start to wrap up the conversation.
对。
Yeah.
我们刚才讨论的是，要拍出胶片感，需要哪些工具或者要调整哪些设置。
I think what what we what we looked at was, the different aspects of what tools you need to or what settings you need to tweak to get a film look.
这就是我们聊的内容。
That's what we talked about.
我们聊了怎么用某些软件实现这种效果，但也提到手机其实也能用来达成类似的效果。
We talked about how to do that with certain softwares, but we also talked about how a phone can be an appropriate tool to achieve stuff like that.
我觉得我们还发现了一点，就是后期折腾起来，并不总是那么有趣。
And I think what we also learned was that, you know, fiddling in post is not always fun.
没错，确实如此，完全同意。
No, indeed, no, absolutely.
那你的结论是什么？
What was, what's your, what's your conclusion?
我觉得你说的我都赞同。
Well, think I agree with everything you said.
我想补充一点，就是从这次对话中，我渐渐感觉到，胶片摄影和数字摄影各自有擅长的领域。
I think, just one thing to add to that, perhaps, is that I'm starting from this conversation, I've got a sort of sort of a feel right now of the there's an area of image making that analog photography can cover, and there's an area that digital can cover.
过去，这两者一直泾渭分明。
And, you know, traditionally, those two have been quite separate.
但随着数字技术越来越成熟，它已经开始渗透到以前只有胶片才能做到的那部分领域。
And as the digital technology has matured, it has started to be able to cross over into that territory that that, you know, previously was analog only.
所以我们现在用现有的工具，已经能在很大程度上非常精准地还原胶片的效果。
So we can now, with the tools we have, we can get, you know, very accurate reproduction of of what film can do to to an extent.
但当你考虑到像传感器尺寸这样的因素——我们刚才聊的这个就是个很好的例子。
But when you consider things like I mean, sensor size, the great one we've just been talking about is a great one.
还有胶片特有的各种替代工艺，确实如此。
So and the all the alternative processes that are available in analog, I yeah.
目前来看，这些胶片独有的效果，数字技术还远远无法准确模拟。
Clearly, those are beyond digital to, you know, to emulate accurately right now.
所以我想象的是一种维恩图的模式，数字技术正随着时间推移，逐渐覆盖越来越多原本属于胶片的领域。
And so I think I I kind of picture that the like, of a Venn diagram where digital is is covering over time, it's starting to cover more and more of what analog is.
但那些胶片特有的、极其出色的边缘效果，数字技术还是望尘莫及。
But all of those really amazing edge cases for analog, digital still can't get anywhere near them.
你想想，现在有谁会走进本地的相机店，去买一台8×10的数码相机呢？
You still can you know, nobody's gonna go down to their local camera shop and buy an eight by 10 digital camera, are they?
对吧？
Right?
是的
Yeah.
我想给听众们留一个建议，叫什么来着？
Think I would like to leave listeners with one what's it called?
一个建议。
A tip.
是叫建议吗？
Is it a tip?
不是。
No.
英文里怎么说来着？
What's the English word?
如果我想推荐别人买某本书。
If I want to give someone advice for buying a certain book.
哦，对，就是建议。
Oh, well, no, a tip.
建议挺好的。
A tip is good.
推荐，哦，是推荐。
A recommend oh, a recommendation.
推荐。
Recommendation.
天哪。
Oh my goodness.
都这么晚了。
So it's so late.
我真得结束了。
I really need to wrap up.
我的英语快没电了。
My English is going down drained.
2022年世界新闻摄影奖的这本画册就是一个很好的例子，作品好不好，根本不在乎是数码拍的还是胶片拍的，关键看照片本身。
So, the the current World Press Photo 2022 book is a very good example of having work that's where it doesn't matter if it's I mean, it says if it's digital or if it's analog, but really if you look at the images, that's not what matters.
我觉得这就是我的体会，因为我们喜欢自己用的工具，是因为它们能带来我们喜爱的成果，帮我们更好地表达。
And I think that is my takeaway because I think we love the tools that we use because they give us results that we love and that help us express in a way.
你去看看那本书，自己判断一下，到底在意照片是用数码拍的还是胶片拍的。
And if you look at that book, have a look at it, decide for yourself if you care about whether it was shot digitally or on film.
当然，我们确实需要这样的内容。
And yeah, we need to have that content.
发邮件到 sunny16presentsgmail dot com，告诉我们你看了世界新闻摄影奖作品样本后的感受。
Write in, write to sunny16presentsgmail dot com and let us know what you think when you look at sample images from World Press Photo.
我觉得这些作品在网上也能看到。
I think they're online as well.
欢迎留言分享你的看法，我们非常期待听到你的声音。
And give us your comments and we'd love to hear from you.
到目前为止，我们第一期节目今天刚上线，对吧？
So far, we had I mean, the the first episode came out today, didn't it?
对，上线了。
It did.
对。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
到目前为止还没起争执，而且确实如此，
No flame war so far, and, yes,
我们制作了
we We made
必须试试，得再努力一点。
must try we must try harder.
我觉得在第二集里，大家就会看到我真实的样子了。
I think in the second episode, will, that that the people, yeah, will have seen my true face.
不是。
No.
好的。
Okay.
所以，Ade，人们在哪里能找到你？
So, Ade, where can people find you?
你刚才说是在Twitter上？
On Twitter, you said?
是的。
Yeah.
在Twitter上，账号是Ade nine six eight。
On Twitter, Ade nine six eight.
前提是这个播客发布的时候，Twitter还存在的话。
That's assuming Twitter still exists when this podcast goes out.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你知道的，什么都可能变。
I mean, you have to, you know, everything goes.
没错。
Absolutely.
你可以在Instagram上找到我，用户名是c_u_s_t_r_one。
So you can find me on Instagram at c underscore s t r one.
和你聊天真的非常愉快，Ade。
And it was a huge pleasure talking to you, Ade.
不错啊。
Oh, nice.
非常感谢各位听众，咱们下期再见。
Thank you very much to our listeners and see you or yes, see you.
说错了。
That's wrong.
不过下一期节目记得听我们。
But you listen to us next episode.
再见。
See you
下一期。
next episode.
大家保重。
Take care everybody.
再见。
Bye bye.
保重。
Take care.
再见。
Bye bye.
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