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早在2005年，两兄弟踏上了一场公路旅行，这场旅行不仅拯救了世界，也改变了电视行业。
Way back in 2005, two brothers set off on a road trip that would save the world and change television.
是厄尼和伯特吗？
Ernie and Bert?
不是。
No.
十五季，327集，《邪恶力量》带着观众经历了一场关于家庭、命运和信仰的疯狂旅程，配乐摇滚，座驾酷炫。
For fifteen seasons and 327 episodes, Supernatural took audiences on a wild ride of family, fate, and faith with a rocking soundtrack and a seriously cool car.
但那是过去的事了，波波，现在是现在。
But that was then, Bobo, and this is now.
而且，没错，这部剧确实已经，所谓的，结束了，但我们的旅程还没完。
And, yes, the show has, quote, unquote, ended, but we're not quite done with the journey.
对。
No.
我们还没完。
We're not.
所以这就是为什么我们要重新看一遍，或者对我和罗伯来说，是第一次深入每一集《邪恶力量》，和那些制作它的人一起，我们带你一起踏上这段旅程。
And that's why we're watching it all over again, or for Rob and me, for the first diving deep into every episode of Supernatural with the fine folks who made it, and we're taking you along for the ride.
不管你愿不愿意。
Whether you like it or not.
我是罗伯·贝内迪克特。
I'm Rob Benedict.
我演的是查克·雪莉，也就是上帝。
I played Chuck Shirley, aka God.
剧透了。
Spoiler.
这确实有点剧透，但嘿，在这里剧透是没问题的。
It is a bit of a spoiler, but, hey, spoilers are fair game here.
好吧。
Fine.
我是理查德·斯佩特二世，我演的是骗子，也就是大天使加百列。
And I'm Richard Spate junior, and I played the trickster, also known as the archangel Gabriel.
我在里面还稍微演了一点洛基的角色。
And I did a little bit of Loki work in there.
好的。
Okay.
你知道吗？
You know what?
我们时间快不够了。
We're running out of time.
好的。
Okay.
好吧，我们会聊整个系列。
Well, we'll be talking about the entire series.
所以不管我们说什么，你都接受吧。
So whatever we say, accept it.
你已经得到警告了。
You've been warned.
所以系好安全带
So buckle up
然后坐稳了。
and settle in.
因为，朋友，这就是《邪恶力量》的过去与现在。
Because this, my friend, is Supernatural, then and now.
大家好呀。
Well, hello, everybody.
我是罗伯·本尼迪克特。
I'm Rob Benedict.
我是理查德·斯佩特二世。
And I'm Richard Spate Jr.
我们来聊聊《邪恶力量》第一季第十集。
And we're here to talk about episode one ten of Supernatural.
这一集叫《精神病院》。
It's called Asylum.
我有点害怕。
I'm scared
已经开始了。
already.
我也害怕。
I'm scared too.
精神病院确实吓人。
Asylums are scary.
是啊，老兄。
Yeah, man.
那可不是个让人轻松愉快的地方。
Not a toe tapping, fun place to be.
顺便说一句，我们这儿可是个轻松愉快的地方，因为今天有两位超棒的嘉宾。
By the way, this is a toe tapping fun place to be because we have two fantastic guests today.
我的脚趾已经开始打拍子了。
My toe is tapping already.
盖伊·诺曼·比，他执导了……
Guy Norman Bee, who was direct...
他执导了这一集，后来又执导了好几集。
Directed this episode and then directed several more
没错。
That's right.
随着时间推移，他还执导了《邪恶力量》的更多集，还有托德·阿罗诺尔，他从试播集就参与了这个剧。
Supernaturals as the years went on, and Todd Aronauer, who was, I mean, involved with the show from the pilot.
从试播集开始。
From the pilot.
他是这部剧的制片人，负责所有的后期制作。
He's a producer on the show, oversaw all of post production.
两位嘉宾都很有趣，他们彼此是好朋友，也是我们的朋友。
Both fascinating guests, buddies of each other, friends of ours.
没错。
That's right.
这是一次很棒的对话。
It's a great conversation.
能和他一起在房间里真是太好了。
It's great to have him in the room with us.
是的。
Yep.
很多人问，你们是在同一个房间里还是通过Zoom？
A lot of people say, are you in the room with people or on Zoom?
其实两种方式都有，但尽可能的话，我们会在同一个房间里。
It's it's back it's back and forth, but as much as possible, we're in the room.
所以这次我们确实是和这些家伙在同一个房间里。
So we're actually in the room with these guys.
我们要么在
We're either in the
房间里，要么在Zoom上，所以我们干脆叫它“简历”。
room or Zoom, so we just call it the resume.
《重访》。
The resume.
所以重访一下，这一集是《精神病院》，第一季第十集。
So resuming, episode Asylum, episode one ten.
Sam和Dean听说有个警察和他妻子被杀了，于是他们就去调查。
Sam and Dean catch wind of a cop and wife being killed, and so they go to investigate.
结果发现那个警察最近去过一个废弃的精神病院。
Turns out the cop was recently at an abandoned asylum.
当地传说那里闹鬼。
Local legend says is haunted.
听着。
Listen.
废弃的精神病院闹鬼，这也不是什么大新闻。
It's not a giant news flash that the abandoned asylum is haunted.
我觉得这差不多是标配了。
I kinda feel like that kinda comes with.
废弃的精神病院？
Abandoned asylum?
你说到废弃精神病院，我就来劲了。
You had me at abandoned asylum?
我觉得这本来就是标配。
I think it's just part of the thing.
那你猜怎么着？
Well, guess what?
他们还真说对了。
They're right.
那里确实闹鬼。
It actually is haunted.
哦。
Oh.
闹鬼的是多年前在暴乱中死去的病人。
It's haunted by patients who died in a riot years ago.
哎呀。
Ew.
首席精神科医生桑福德·埃利科特在病人身上做实验。
The head psychiatrist, doctor Sanford Ellicott, was experimenting on patients.
这从来不是……
That's never...
看，就在那儿。
See, right there.
这从来不是……
That's never...
又来了，不行。
Again No.
危险信号。
Red flag.
他们不喜欢那样。
They don't like that.
在实验过程中，他把病人的愤怒当作一种疗法来激发。
And in the experimenting, he's pushing their rage as a type of therapy.
这又不行。
Again Not good.
这教科书里可没写。
That's not in the textbooks.
在精神病院里。
In an asylum.
而且他就是那些鬼魂之一。
And he's the one of the spirits.
他是闹鬼的主要鬼魂之一。
He's one of the head ghosts that's haunting people.
他钻进现实生活里的人的脑子里，让他们做出可怕的事情，比如自杀或者杀妻。
He's getting in real life people's heads and making them do horrible things, like kill themselves and their wives.
所以山姆和迪恩就出手了。
So Sam and Dean do their thing.
他们救出了一对被困在精神病院的年轻夫妇，然后烧掉了死者的骨头，以此驱散那些鬼魂。
They rescue a young couple trapped in the asylum and burn the deceased bones as a way of getting rid of the ghosts.
那挺好的。
Good for them.
不过在此之前，他们自己也被鬼魂缠身，折腾了一番。
But not before being a bit haunted and messed with themselves.
哦，那当然，这是难免的。
Oh, well, know, that comes with the territory.
好了，罗比，现在是点评时间。
Now, Robbie, it's review time.
罗伯和里奇的点评时间。
Rob and Rich's Review time.
毫无保留的点评。
Unfettered reviews.
罗伯，你觉得这一集怎么样？
Rob, what'd you think of the episode?
让我看看我的笔记。
Let me check my notes.
哎呀。
Oh, boy.
无聊死了。
Snooze fest.
我喜欢这一集。
I liked it.
我非常喜欢。
I liked it a lot.
它非常吓人。
It was very scary.
非常吓人。
Very scary.
我真的很喜欢这一集。
I really I really like this one.
我特别喜欢那种闹鬼的精神病院。
I I love a good haunted asylum.
我们接下来会看到一些山姆的……
We're good to see some of Sam's...
他开始展现出某种通灵能力。
Starts to have kind of psychic abilities.
我们看到他有幻象，还有上一集第九集里看到的东西。
We see that he has visions and things that we saw in the last episode, episode nine.
到了第十集，我们开始凭感觉走。
And in episode 10, we're going on vibes.
他对事情有种不好的预感。
He's getting a bad feeling about things.
我……
I...
我觉得这集很棒，就是因为整个精神病院的设定，对。
I I thought this episode was great just because the whole asylum idea Yeah.
超级阴森。
Is super creepy.
他们拍精神病院用的那个场景，我们俩都知道那是个废弃的精神病院。
The set they had for the asylum, which we both know is an abandoned asylum
那地方真的闹鬼。
That's actually haunted.
真的，在温哥华那边。
For real up in Vancouver.
太酷了。
It was so cool.
所以，这比他们只是……好太多了。
So, I it's so much better than they just...
他们没有搭个布景。
They didn't build some set.
他们直接去了那栋楼。
They went out to that building.
而且它……
And it's...
你能看得出来。
You could tell.
就是特别阴森。
It's just super creepy.
确实阴森。
It's creepy.
不。
No.
我买了，然后，你知道，有一场戏是Sam进去和精神病医生的儿子谈话。
I bought it, and, you know, there's a scene where Sam goes in and talks to the psychiatrist's son.
很喜欢那场戏。
Loved that.
我特别喜欢那场戏。
I loved that.
那个家伙演得太好了。
That guy was great.
就那一场戏。
One scene.
那个家伙确实很棒。
That guy was great.
而且我也很喜欢那场戏，因为我们不知道那个房间里发生了什么。
And also, I loved that scene because we don't know what happened in that room.
对。
No.
你知道吗，他提到了Dean的一些事。
You know, like, he he says something about Dean.
再说一次，这正是我喜欢这部剧的地方。
Again, and that's what I love about this show.
它其实……
It's it's actually...
你知道，第一季，大家总说是一集一个怪物，但其实还有别的事情在发生。
You know, season one, people always say it's monster of the week, but there's still other things going on.
比如，山姆的……
Like, Sam's...
你知道，山姆对他被抚养的方式有意见，而且他和迪恩之间的问题可以追溯到很久以前，后来在那一集里山姆被附身的时候，
You know, Sam has issues with the way that he was raised, and and does he have issues with Dean that go way back later in the episode when Sam's possessed
被那个医生附身？
By the doctor?
他对迪恩大发雷霆，你知道，然后后来又道歉了。
He rages out at Dean, you know, and then later apologizes.
但是，你知道，是的。
But, you know Yeah.
但在那个时候，那个时候的道歉，我很喜欢，你知道，山姆说，迪恩，我们需要
But at that point, at that point, the apology, I love that, you know, Sam's like, Dean, do we need
谈谈这个吗？
to talk about this?
我就想，哥们，你刚才还骂你兄弟，还想朝他脸上开枪呢。
And I'm thinking, dude, you just hated on your bro and tried to shoot him in the face.
我觉得迪恩一时半会儿放不下这事儿，也挺正常的。
I don't think Dean's out of place kinda hanging on to that for a hot sec.
咱们先别聊这个了。
Let's not talk about
现在先不提。
it now.
把牙膏挤回管子里去。
Put the toothpaste back in the tube.
我还不知道呢。
I don't know yet.
这么快。
So fast.
不。
No.
他确实这么做了。
He does.
他递给山姆一把枪，山姆不知道枪里没子弹，然后山姆试图朝他脸上开枪。
He hands him a gun that Sam doesn't know is not loaded, and Sam tries to shoot him in the face.
我知道。
I know.
他这么做的时候，确实有点占有欲。
Possess when he does that.
但山姆有些问题。
But there's issues with Sam.
山姆正在处理一些事情。
Sam's working through some stuff.
所以我们喜欢这样。
So we like it.
那个……结尾……
The the end of the...
罗宾·里奇的评论是，我们喜欢它。
The the Robin Rich review is We liked it.
两个大胡子。
Two full beards.
这就是我们的看法。
That's our view.
两个大胡子。
Two full beards.
我们给这部片子两个大胡子。
We give this one two full beards.
我只想说，让我把话说完，他走进心理医生的办公室，提出一个想法，说，嘿。
I just wanna say, just to finish my thought, he he goes into the psychiatrist's office and brings up the idea that, hey.
你爸爸也是心理医生吗？
Was your dad a psychiatrist too?
然后那家伙就说，我们不谈这个。
And the guy's like, we're not gonna talk about that.
那时候我们就知道有问题了。
That's when we know something's up.
确实如此。
True do.
总之，这部片子很不错。
Anyway, it's a good one.
是部经典之作。
It's a classic one.
而且我们很幸运，在这期播客里能请到制片人托德·阿罗诺尔和这一集的导演盖伊·诺曼·比。
And we are so lucky that in this episode of our podcast, we get to talk to producer Todd Aronauer and director of the episode, Guy Norman b.
他们都是经验丰富的电视工作者，而且从《邪恶力量》早期就深度参与了。
Great journeyman TV guys and both heavily involved in Supernatural from the early days.
我们开始吧？
Should we get into it?
好，开始吧。
Let's do it.
走吧。
Let's go.
今天我们可有大福利了，一下子要采访两位嘉宾。
We got such a treat today, a doubleheader of gentlemen to interview.
都是元老级人物。
Original gangsters.
没错。
That's true.
导演盖伊·诺曼·比。
Director Guy Norman Bee.
对。
Yes.
正是。
Exactly.
还有副制片人托德·阿罗诺尔。
And associate producer Todd Aronauer.
你们好，两位。
Hello, guys.
嘿。
Hey.
你们好吗？
How are you?
非常好。
Really good.
非常好。
Really good.
能请到你们两位真是太荣幸了。
It's such a treat to have you both here.
就像Rich说的，你们两位可是《邪恶力量》的元老级人物。
Again, like Rich said, two of the original gangsters of Supernatural.
尤其是你，Todd，咱们就从这儿开始吧。
Especially you, Todd, because, Todd, let's just start right here.
你是少数几个从试播集就开始参与的人之一。
You are one of the few people that started on the pilot.
少数几个剧组成员之一
One of the few crew members
从试播集就开始的。
That started on the pilot.
而在剧组里，可能只有一两个人一直坚持到最后。
And of crew, there might be one or two people that stayed till the end.
其中一位就是布鲁斯·戈尔曼先生
One is mister Bruce Gorman
对。
Yep.
我们的助理剪辑师。
Assistant editor of ours.
但试播集是在洛杉矶拍的，所以实际的制作组成员没能一直跟着这部剧。
But the pilot was shot in LA, so actual production crew members weren't able to stay with the show
在整个播出期间。
Throughout the run.
那你做了什么？
Now what'd you do?
因为我知道你和Kripke有过交情。
Because I know you have a history with Kripke.
是的。
Yes.
跟我们说说那段经历吧。
Tell us about that.
我只能告诉你一部分。
I can only tell you some parts.
我……
I...
其他的部分我发过誓要保密。
I've been sworn to secrecy on others.
但其他的内容不适合做播客。
But Others are not podcastable.
这集里有很多消音的地方。
Lot of bleeping in this episode.
是的。
Yes.
我大学毕业后，从俄亥俄州立大学搬到了这里。
So I graduated from college and moved out here from the Ohio State University.
哦。
Oh.
所以从哥伦布出发，我收拾好我的丰田卡罗拉，开车到了这里。
So from Columbus, I packed up my Toyota Corolla and drove out here.
我的一个好朋友，也是埃里克·克里普克共同的朋友，在九六、九七年的新年介绍我们认识。
One of my buddies, a good friend of mine, who's also a mutual friend of Eric Kripke's, he introduced us in New Year's ninety six, ninety seven.
哇。
Wow.
然后让我想想。
And let's see.
1月1号，我在克里普克的沙发上睡了一觉，之前在他那儿待了几天。
January 1, I slipped on Kripke's couch after hanging out for a couple of days.
喝多了。
Over imbibing.
我们一直保持联系，他的朋友后来也都成了我的朋友。
And we stayed in touch, in contact, and all of his friends became my friends.
到现在，他们还是我最好的朋友，那些……
To this day, they're some of my closest friends that...
我刚搬到这里时认识的第一批人。
The first people that I met when I moved out here.
太棒了。
Awesome.
所以他邀请了你……
And so he invited you...
当这个……
When this...
当《邪恶力量》火起来，或者说当试播集被选中时，他邀请你加入了吗？
When Supernatural took off or or when the pilot picked up, he invited you to be a part of it?
我当时在通过华纳兄弟做另一个节目，但那是给福克斯的。
I was working on another show through Warner Brothers, but it was for Fox.
那个节目叫《Johnny Zero》。
It was called Johnny Zero.
我当时在做那个，然后他说，节目拿到了。
I was working on that, and he said, got the show.
我希望你能加入。
I'd love for you to come aboard.
你有空吗？
And are you available?
我说，我会腾出时间的。
And I said, I'll make myself available.
告诉我时间和地点，我就放下一切，马上加入。
Tell me where and when and dropped everything and jumped on board.
和Nutter一起，那真是一段奇妙的旅程，是的。
And it was a fantastic ride with Nutter and Yeah.
还有McGee和他的团队。
McGee and his crew.
所以你是……
So you're...
这时候，你是副制片人。
At this point, you're associate producer.
那具体是做什么的？
And so what goes on?
比如，剧集被选中后，他们在温哥华拍，你是两地跑，还是主要在洛杉矶？
Like, when the show gets picked up, they're up in Vancouver, Do you go back and forth, or you're mostly in LA?
试播集是在洛杉矶拍的。
So pilot was LA.
然后系列的后期制作还是在洛杉矶。
And then postproduction for the series remained in LA.
所以我们在伯班克。
So we were in Burbank.
我们的办公室设在伯班克，和编剧、制片人一起。
Our offices were set up in Burbank along with the writers, producers.
拍摄在温哥华。
Production was up in Vancouver.
偶尔我会因为各种原因上去，比如日常事务、后期视觉效果或者补拍镜头，这样也认识了剧组的人，这一路走来真的很棒。
And, occasionally, I'd go up for different reasons, whatever the case may be, for daily stuff or post visual effects stuff or insert units and got to meet the crew that way, and it's it's been a great ride.
大家很快就成了一家人。
Everybody just became family so quickly.
问你一个行业内部的问题。
A little inside baseball question for you.
对于听这个节目的粉丝来说，即使他们不了解这个节目，也不熟悉好莱坞，你的一天是怎么度过的？
So for fans of the show listening to this, even if they don't know the show, but they don't know Hollywood so well, what was your day
每天的任务是什么？
to day task?
比如……
Like, what...
作为副制片人，你具体负责什么工作？
Like, as an associate producer, what were you tasked to do?
副制片人这个头衔……
So associate producer is a title...
最后是以制片人的头衔完成这部剧的。
Like, finished the series as a producing title.
所以我是这部剧后期制作的负责人。
So I was the head of postproduction for the show.
我和菲尔·斯克雷查一起，他负责制作和导演那边，我则负责预算、日程、视觉效果，以及所有中间环节，包括和剪辑部门、供应商打交道。
So along with Phil Screcha, who also dealt with production side and directing, I was the go to for budget schedules and visual effects, everything in between, dealing with editorial facilities, vendors.
所以所有后期工作都经过你手，对吧？
Everything post went through you then.
我是说，整个后期制作流程，对。
I mean, everything in the post production process Yeah.
都经过你手。
Came across your desk.
是的。
Yes.
所以我们的交集只在你那边结束后才出现，对吧。
That's why our our paths only cross with you after the fact, after Right.
拍完以后。
Done the the shooting.
我觉得我好像见过托德几次，就是在我实际执导和进剪辑的时候。
I think I think I saw Todd a couple times when I was, like, actually directing and going into edits.
我会稍微探个头打个招呼，你知道，当他……
I would kinda lean in and and say hi, you know, when he he...
当他到洛杉矶办公室的时候。
When he hit his LA offices.
今天我们还请到了这一集以及迷你剧的导演，盖伊·诺曼·比。
We also have with us director of this episode and mini to come, Guy Norman Bee.
嘿。
Hey.
嘿，盖伊。
Hey, Guy.
你好吗？
How are you?
挺好的，兄弟。
Good, man.
这真是回忆满满啊。
This is a trip down memory lane.
确实是啊。
It really is.
因为那……
Because that...
就像你之前说的，那是十五年前的事了，我记得非常清楚……
Like you were saying earlier, it was fifteen something years ago, and I remember very clearly...
我的意思是，一个很好的时间标记是，我记得推着九个月大的女儿，推着婴儿车穿过地铁镇之类的地方，而现在那个九个月大的女儿已经17岁了。是的。
I mean, the good time stamp is I remember pushing my nine month old daughter around in a stroller through like metro town or something, and and that nine month old daughter now turned 17 years old Yeah.
差不多再过一周。
In like a week.
太不可思议了。
It's crazy.
是不是很神奇？
Isn't that amazing?
太不可思议了。
It's crazy.
那时候她还不会走路，现在开车跟疯了一样。
She wasn't walking then, and now she drives like a madman.
女司机。
Woman.
真是个疯丫头。
Crazy girl.
不。
No.
完全同意。
Totally.
我……
I...
我们把这个节目和孩子的年龄联系在一起。
We associate the show with the age of our children.
我也有同样的经历。
I have a same.
我有个儿子，2004年出生的。
I I have a son who was born in 2004.
他刚满18岁。
He just turned 18.
太疯狂了。
Crazy.
所以这一集是你导演的。
So you directed this episode.
你是怎么加入这个项目的？
How did you get on board?
我记得当时接到经纪人的电话，她说温哥华有个新剧。
I remember getting a call from my agent at the time, and she said there's this new show in Vancouver.
我想是David Nutter推荐了我，因为在他职业生涯早期，我是他的摄影师，我记得我们很合得来。
David Nutter, I think, recommended me because being a camera operator early in David's career, I remember him and I hitting it off.
然后我还记得早一年……
And then I remember also a year early...
我想是早一年，我和Eric Kripke开过一个关于《人猿泰山和珍妮》的总体会议，作为……
I think it was a year earlier, I had an overall kind of general meeting with Eric Kripke about Tarzan and Jane and being one of the...
作为制片人兼导演。
Being the producer director.
最后我没拿到那份工作，但他给了我一个剧集的机会。
And I eventually didn't get that job, but he offered me an episode.
不幸的是，我还没来得及飞往多伦多去拍，那个剧就被取消了。
And unfortunately, I think it got canceled before I even got to go to fly to Toronto to do it.
所以埃里克认识我，大卫·纳特也认识我。
But so Eric knew me and David Nutter knew me.
他们跟我描述的方式，就是那些经典的都市传说重述，比如，舞会约会对象在回家路上搭便车，第二天那个男的来看她，她妈妈说，她一年前的昨晚就去世了。
And so the way it was described to me is sort of classic retellings of these classic, you know, the prom date that hitchhikes on her way home, and the guy comes to check on her the next day, and the the mother says, well, she she died a year ago last night.
还有，哦，还有那个妖怪，还有那些经典的都市怪谈。
You know, oh, and boogeyman, and, you know, all those great classic urban myths.
所以我很感兴趣，而且我总说我不是一个特别爱看恐怖片的人。
And so I was into it, and I always say I'm not a huge horror movie fan.
但话说回来，像《闪灵》《大白鲨》，当然，我……
But then again, you know, The Shining, Jaws, of course, I...
比如，我最喜欢的十部电影里，可能有三四部是恐怖片。
Like, maybe three or four of my top 10 movies that I'm a fan of are horror movies.
所以我接受了，而且很兴奋能去做这件事。
So I embraced it and was excited to do it.
新节目，而且还有我认识的一些朋友一起。
New show and with with some friends that I knew already.
你能稍微描述一下，对于那些可能不知道什么是斯坦尼康的人来说，它和把摄像机放在轨道车上有什么不同？
You can you describe a little bit for people who may not know what a Steadicam is, that's how that would be different from, say, putting a camera on a dolly?
你知道，斯坦尼康，大家都把它称为新技术，至少那时候是这样，但它从七十年代就有了。
You know, Steadicam is everyone kinda refers to it or at least at that time as new technology, but it had been around since the seventies.
《洛奇》、《闪灵》。
The rocky, the shining.
任何时候你看到一个平滑的漂浮镜头视角，但它能穿过轨道车过不去的地方，比如门口或者楼上，那通常就是斯坦尼康。
Anytime you see a floating camera point of view that is smooth, but it goes through places that a dolly can't fit, like a doorway or upstairs, That's usually Steadicam.
所以它是手持和轨道之间的混合体，因为你确实拿着它，但不是扛在肩上。
So it's a it's a hybrid between handheld because you are holding it, but you're not holding it on your shoulder.
你通过一个弹簧加载的关节臂把它带离身体。
You're kinda carrying it away from you with a spring loaded articulating arm.
这就像学一门乐器，因为你得先大量练习，然后才能开始把自己推销成摄影师。因为如果你遇到那种……
And it's like learning a musical instrument because you have to have practiced a lot before you jump in and start selling yourself as a camera operator because if you get those kind of...
我们称之为“晃动的水平线”，你真的能让观众晕船，因为糟糕的斯坦尼康的标志就是它太引人注目了。
We call them swimmy horizons, you you can literally make the audience seasick because that's the hallmark of bad Steadicam is it calls attention to itself.
所以等我拍《急诊室的故事》的时候，我已经有大约五年的摄影经验，而且已经相当熟练了，我真的很喜欢它。
So by the time I did ER, I, you know, again, had like five years of camera experience and got pretty good at it, and I just loved it.
这就像是音乐和电影的完美结合，音乐是我从小喜欢的，当然还有电影。
It was the sort of the perfect cross between music, which I, you know, grew up loving, and of course, cinema.
它把我喜欢的一切都融合在一起了。
It combined everything I liked.
它很技术性。
It was technical.
它也是……
It was...
我是一名艺术家。
I was an artist.
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我和演员们关系处得很好，然后我意识到我想当导演。
I got really close with actors, and I realized I wanna direct.
所以那时候我就知道我想当导演了。
And so even back then, I knew I wanted to be a director.
那你跟我们说说这个转变是怎么发生的。
So walk me through that segue.
你是怎么从做这个转到导演的？
How did you go from doing what you're doing to directing?
99年……
'99...
其实，是98年，我接到了约翰·威尔斯和克里斯·丘拉克的电话。那时候《急诊室的故事》特别火，他们知道我想当导演，我们就稍微谈了个条件——帮他们定一部新剧的视觉风格和感觉，如果那部剧被选中了，就让我导演一集。
Well, actually, '98, I got a call from John Wells and Chris Chulak, and, you know, at the time, because ER was so big and they knew I wanted to direct, we sort of bartered a little bit, which is help us set the look and the feel of one of our pilots coming up, and we'll let you direct one of the episodes if it gets picked up.
所以98年，我们拍了一部两小时的剧，主演是卢·戴蒙德·菲利普斯，我们本来抱了很大希望，结果没被选中。
So in '98, we did a big two hour with Lou Diamond Phillips, which we had all the hopes in the world didn't get picked up.
99年，他们又拍了一部。
In '99, they did too.
他们给我寄了《白宫风云》和《第三守望》的剧本。
They sent me the scripts to West Wing and Third Watch.
《第三守望》是在纽约市，讲警察、消防员、急救员，还有枪战、追车、火灾这些。
And Third Watch was in New York City, cops, firemen, paramedics, shootouts, car chases, fire, of course.
《白宫风云》写得非常好，我也认识那些演员，而且那部试播集的导演汤米·沙拉米，真的有点……
And while West Wing was beautifully written, and I, you know, I knew the cast, and Tommy Shalami, the director of that pilot, really kind of bent...
他软磨硬泡地跟我说，嘿，哥们儿。
Twisted my arm and said, hey, man.
我们要做一部像《急诊室》那样的剧，但背景设在白宫西翼。
We're gonna do EER, but, like, in the West Wing of the White House.
我当然想去纽约市拍那种疯狂的戏。
I wanted to do the crazy in, you know, of course, New York City.
克里斯·图拉克，他后来成了我的导师，他要执导那部试播集，他说，过来帮我定一下视觉风格。
And Chris Tulak, again, who became my mentor, was gonna direct that pilot, and he said, come and help me set the look.
我们已经预定了12集，我当时不太明白那是什么意思，但其实意思就是他们已经和华纳兄弟谈好了，要做13集。
We're already put for 12, which I didn't really know what that meant, but it meant that they already had made a deal with Warner Brothers to do 13 episodes.
而且我一直听说，如果你能在纽约市生活一年并搬过去，那就去做吧。
And I'd always heard if you can spend a year of your life in New York City and move there, do it.
因为那种能量是无与伦比的，而且你不需要开车去任何地方，打车、坐地铁、走路，都行。
Because there's nothing like that energy, and you know, you don't have to drive anywhere, cabs, subways, walking, whatever.
所以我说，这是个好机会去做这件事。
So I said, here's a good chance to do that.
然后我执导了第13集，在……
And I directed episode 13 at...
那是1999年12月，2000年初，我有点回顾过去。
It was like December '99, the beginning of two thousand, and I kinda have a look back.
然后，是的，你知道，我找到了一个非常棒的经纪人，开始接拍威尔斯团队以外的其他剧集。
And then, yeah, you know, sort of got a really great agent and started booking other shows outside of the Wells camp.
太棒了。
Amazing.
嘿。
Ahoy.
我是里奇·斯佩德。
Rich Spade here.
希望你们喜欢这期节目，但我们得先暂停一下，插播几条消息。
Hope you're enjoying the episode, but we gotta pull over for a second for some messages.
大家好。
Hi, everybody.
我是罗伯·贝内迪克特。
It's Rob Benedict.
本期节目由Vinted赞助播出。
This episode is sponsored by Vinted.
你们了解Vinted吗？
Do you know about Vinted?
好的。
Okay.
看看你的衣橱吧。
Check a look at your closet.
如果你跟我一样，那就是……
If you're like me, it's...
我的衣服太多了。
I've got too many clothes.
不。
No.
我的问题是我跟一个衣服多到小衣柜都装不下的人住在一起，所以我们总是在想办法精简衣柜，腾出空间放别的东西。
My problem is I'm with someone who has too many clothes for a small closet, So we're always looking for ways to thin out our closet to make for room for other things.
有个应用让这件事变得特别简单，那就是Vinted。
And there's an app that makes that so easy to do, and that app is Vinted.
这是一个二手交易市场应用，让普通卖家——像你我这样的人——轻松卖掉穿过但还不错的衣服，赚点外快。
It's a secondhand marketplace app that makes it easy for everyday sellers, sellers, people like you and me, to sell pre loved fashion and earn some extra money.
所以也许你的衣柜不像我这么满，但你想多赚点钱，或者只是偶尔想清理一下。
So maybe your closet's not full like mine, but you're looking to make a little extra money, or you just like to clean out every once in a while.
这就是Vintage很棒的原因，因为你可以重新利用你的衣服，顺便赚点零花钱。
That's why Vintage is great because you can repurpose your clothing and make a little cash on the side.
Vinted用起来特别简单，卖衣服变得很轻松。
Vintage was just so easy that it made selling my clothes simple.
我选择Vinted是因为它不收任何销售费用，所以你赚到的钱都归你自己。
I turned to Vinted because there are no selling fees, so you keep everything you earn.
所以这是双赢的。
And so it's win win.
你……
You...
我清理了衣柜，赚了点外快，现在感觉好多了，因为我的衣柜……
I've been able to clean out my closet, make a little extra money, and I now feel better because I have a lot...
整洁多了，没那么乱了。
Much less cluttered closet.
这个应用可以免费下载。
The app is free to download.
在Vinted上发布商品很快。
Listing items on Vinted is quick.
很简单。
It's simple.
而且一旦商品卖出，Vinted 会为你生成预付运费标签。
And once the item sells, Vinted creates the prepaid shipping label for you.
所以，这不就是很划算吗？
So it's like, wouldn't you?
那你准备好清理衣柜，顺便赚点外快了吗？
So are you ready to clean out your closet and make some extra money?
免费下载 Vinted 应用，开始上架吧。
Download the Vinted app for free and start listing.
没有卖家费用，你赚的每一分钱都归你。
With no seller fees, you keep every dollar you earn.
你拿着最爱的毯子，倒上一杯新饮料，还有一桩冷案在你的追剧清单里等着你。
You've got your favorite blanket, a freshly poured drink, and a cold case burning a hole in your streaming queue.
你不仅仅是在看真实犯罪节目。
You're not just watching true crime.
你正舒舒服服地窝在沙发里，自己当侦探破案呢。
You're running the investigation from the comfort of your couch.
欢迎收听《谋杀她看了》播客，我们在这里回顾、剖析，甚至有点过度解读那些在我们最爱的流媒体平台上最精彩、最疯狂的犯罪纪录片。
Welcome to Murder She Watched, the podcast where we recap, dissect, and slightly overanalyze some of the best and craziest true crime documentaries on our favorite streamers.
是不是配偶干的？
Did the spouse do it?
为什么那个可疑的邻居七月里还戴着皮手套？
Why is the shady neighbor wearing leather gloves in July?
为什么这家伙会同意在这部纪录片里接受采访？
Why did this guy agree to be interviewed in this documentary?
我们问的那些尖锐问题，正是你常常对着电视大喊大叫想问的。
We ask the tough questions that you're often just screaming at your TV.
所以每周我们都会拆解那些让你彻夜难眠的剧情反转、误导线索和荒诞纪录片。
So every week, we break down the twists, red herrings, and absurd documentaries that have kept you up all night.
这就是高能剧情、舒适氛围，还有绝对的沙发侦探范儿。
It's high drama, cozy vibes, and absolute couch detective energy.
拿起你的毛毯，赶紧订阅吧。
Grab your throw blanket and hit subscribe.
在收听播客的任何地方搜索《Murder She Watched》，我们一起破案。
Search Murder She Watched wherever you listen to podcasts, and let's solve this thing together.
感谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
现在回到正片。
Now back to the episode.
所以现在是2005年，你被请来执导这集《超自然精神病院》。
So it's now 2005, and you get brought on to direct this episode of Supernatural Asylum.
是的。
Yes.
你还记得……
Do you remember...
首先，你有个关于你和托德是怎么认识的故事。
Well, first of all, you you had a story about how you and Todd here met.
哦。
Oh.
那是什么故事？
What is that story?
我和托德是在……
Well, Todd and I met on...
我，我……
I I...
在《邪恶力量》里认识的，但五年前发生了一件事。
On Supernatural, but there's something that happened about five years ago.
我是个超级喜剧迷，当时电视上有个新节目，我最好的朋友是那个节目的摄影师，他说，我就是……
I'm a huge comedy fan, and there was a new show on TV that my best friend was the camera operator on and said, I just...
我在做这个节目，我们每天都笑得不行。
I'm doing this show, and we're laughing our ass off every day.
播出的时候，你一定要看。
When it airs, you gotta watch it.
是约翰·利思戈主演的，剧名叫《审判与错误》。
It's John Lithgow, and it was called trial and error.
所以半小时后，我就在看这部剧。
So half hour, I'm watching it.
我笑得眼泪都出来了。
I'm crying laughing.
里面有些特别棒的……
There's some great...
我是说，有些……
I mean, some...
如果你们……
If you ever...
如果你们还记得看过这部剧，那太好了，或者有机会的话去找来看看。
If you guys remember watching it, it's great, or find it if you can.
我注意到主演是个年轻演员，叫尼古拉斯·达戈斯托，我当时就想，我认识尼古拉斯。
I noticed that the star is a young actor named Nicholas D'Agosto, and I'm like, I know Nicholas.
那是我从洛杉矶飞到阿西勒姆的男主角。
That was my male lead that we flew up from LA on Asylum.
这孩子真不错。
Great kid.
我为他感到非常高兴。
I'm really excited for him.
所以我特别留意了片尾字幕。
So I pay attention to the credits.
创作者兼编剧是个叫杰夫·阿斯特罗夫的人。
There's the creator and the writer is a guy named Jeff Astroff.
我想我念对了他的名字。
I think I'm pronouncing that correctly.
然后我在推特上搜了他，关注了他，他也立刻回关了我。
And I look him up on Twitter, and I follow him, and he follows me right back.
我跟他说，杰夫，我特别喜欢你这部剧。
And I said, Jeff, I love your show.
真是让人笑到哭。
It's just laugh out loud crying.
太棒了。
It's so great.
长话短说，尼古拉斯·德·奥古斯托，你知道，是一个联系，但后来我通过推特发现杰夫·阿斯特罗夫是托德·阿罗诺尔的小舅子。
To make a long story short, Nicolas de Augusto, you know, was one connection, but then I realized somehow or another through Twitter that Jeff Astroff is Todd Aronauer's brother-in-law.
什么？
What?
他娶了杰夫的妹妹。
He's married to Jeff's sister.
总之，这就是好莱坞里的一度分离。
Anyway, so there's that one degree of separation in Hollywood.
所以，反正，这是个有趣的故事。
So anyway, interesting story.
哇。
Wow.
我还做过《Try On Air》第二季的后期制作人。
I also was a post producer for season two of Try On Air.
不会吧。
No.
好吧。
Alright.
在温哥华拍的。
Shot in Vancouver.
哦，哇。
Oh, wow.
我哥们儿挺郁闷的，因为他是洛杉矶的摄影师。
And my my buddy was bummed because he's an LA based camera operator.
他就说，天哪。
So he's like, god.
真想干这个……
Love to do the...
你知道吗？
You know?
算了。
Anyway.
嗯，尼古拉斯是个那种演员，他……
Well, Nicholas is a kinda actor that he...
我很喜欢《选举》。
I loved Election.
他就在《选举》里。
And he's in Election.
那是我第一次……
That's the first thing I...
当我看到他的脸时，我去IMDb上查了一下，发现《选举》是他最早的作品之一。
When I saw his face, I looked it up on IMDb, and Election was, like, his first thing that he did.
之后他就一直有戏拍。
And then after that, he, you know, kept working.
现在这张脸太有辨识度了。
Such a recognizable face now.
而且看起来还那么显小。
Such a baby face too.
感觉一直都是一张娃娃脸，
It just kinda always has a baby
娃娃脸。
face.
重看《精神病院》的时候，看着他的脸，我就觉得，这看起来完全一样。
Rewatching Asylum, looking at his face, I'm like, it it looks exactly
一模一样。
the same.
一模一样。
Exactly the same.
他当时太
He was so
他当时特别兴奋。
he was so stoked.
我记得，你知道，在温哥华拍《邪恶力量》的时候，导演的准备室就在那个巨大的会议室对面。
I remember, you know, the director's prepping room was across from this giant in Vancouver on Supernatural, this giant boardroom conference room.
我记得我走进导演的准备室，没关门，就听到尼古拉斯在和他的……
And I remember walking into the director's prepping room and not closing my door and hearing Nicholas talking with his...
那是2005年。
It was 2005.
和他爸爸打电话，滔滔不绝地说我玩得太开心了。
Talking with his dad and just gushing about I'm having the best time.
这是最棒的剧组。
This is the greatest crew.
这些人太……
These guys are so...
哦，我得去试装了。
Oh, I got to go to a wardrobe fitting.
我特别兴奋。
I'm so excited.
所以他真的很投入。
So he was really into it.
还有一个关于这件事的好故事是，我想大概一年前，我拍了几集叫《美眉校探》的剧，其中一位客串演员是个年轻女演员，叫阿洛娜·塔尔，我特别喜欢她。
And the other great story about that is, I think a year earlier, I'd done a couple episodes of a show called Veronica Mars, and one of my guest stars was a young actress named Alona Tal, and I loved her to death.
所以当我意识到我们要从洛杉矶把男女主角都请过来时，我就向选角导演推荐了阿洛娜，他们说，哦，我们也很喜欢阿洛娜。
So when I realized we were gonna fly up the male and female leads from LA, I threw my suggestion to the casting director about Alona, they go, oh, we love Alona.
太好了。
Awesome.
所以他们就在谈那个合作。
So they were kind of making that deal.
我猜是因为她……
And I guess because she...
她是以色列人，但我的意思是，你知道，她显然住在美国，但他们没法及时办好文件把她弄到加拿大，或者类似的情况。
She's Israeli, but I mean, you know, lives in The US obviously, but they couldn't get the paperwork to get her to Canada or something in time.
哦。
Oh.
所以她不得不退出，然后我们找来了，你知道的，布鲁克·内文，现在回想起来。
So she had to drop out, and we got, you know, Brooke Nevin, was looking back now.
她做得很好。
She did a great job.
而且这对阿洛娜来说反而有利，因为她后来成了常驻角色。
And it worked out to Alona's advantage because she eventually became a recurring role.
对，角色更大了。
Yeah, bigger character.
对，角色更大了。
Yeah, bigger character.
所以我有点高兴他们最终把她请来了。
So I kinda was happy that they They eventually got her.
他们最终把她请来了，搞定了文件什么的，然后她去了《哈维尔》，我记得是。
They eventually got her and got the paperwork or whatever, and she went to be a Harvel, I think it was.
那个角色。
That character.
没错。
Exactly.
所以就是这样。
So there you go.
这里有几个小趣闻。
There's a couple little quick trivia stories.
不错的趣闻。
Good trivia.
那么，盖伊，你上去执导。
So so, Guy, you get up there to direct.
你有了你的演员阵容。
You've got your cast.
你做了所有那些准备工作。
You do all those pre steps.
你是第一个，哥们，是的。
You are the first guy guy Yeah.
算是成为这部剧的常驻导演。
To sort of become a recurring director in the show.
就像，你就是那个……
Like, you're you're the...
除了金·曼纳斯成了制片总监，你是第一个开始回来执导的人。
Aside from Kim Manners who became the PD, you were the first guy that started coming back.
我的问题是，你刚开始的时候，整个制作流程有多顺畅？
My question is when you started, how well oiled was the machine?
当你去执导这一集的时候，片场和工作人员之间的节奏是什么样的？
When you got up there to direct this episode, what kind of rhythm was going on on the set with the crew and all that kind of stuff?
嗯，其实挺酷的。
Well, it was it was pretty cool.
我的意思是，大家都非常兴奋，因为我记得，大概是我准备工作的第一天，当时的制作经理、制片人、执行制片人进来说，各位，我们续订了。
I mean, everybody was really excited because I remember, I think, my first day of prep, the production manager, producer, line producer at the time came in and said, guys, we picked up.
我们拿到了追加的九集。
We got a back nine.
我们正式被认可了。
We're legit.
我记得是赛勒斯·亚夫奈。
I think it was Cyrus Yavnai.
他走进来，然后现场就像开派对一样。
And he came in, and so there was, like, party atmosphere.
就像如果我们能买……
It's like if we could've bought...
或者如果他们能开香槟庆祝，他们肯定会开。
Or if they could've popped bottles of champagne, they would've.
但确实让我们带着很棒的感觉开始了这一集。
But really launched us into this episode with a great feeling.
而且我记得，你知道，我已经认识剧组里的一些人，因为我之前在《真实召唤》和其他一些温哥华拍摄的剧集工作过，所以我认识整个道具部门。
And I remember, you know, I knew some people already on the crew because I had worked on, like, True Calling and some other Vancouver based shows, so I knew the whole prop department.
所以那感觉还挺酷的。
So it was it was kinda cool.
我是说，人挺多的。
I mean, there was a lot of people.
通常我在准备期的头几天会去片场看看，如果他们在那儿的话……
Like, I typically try and go down to the set one of my first days of prep if they're on...
去片场看看，不是去摄影棚，跟大家打个招呼。
Look on set, not, you know, on stage, and say hi to everybody.
所以那些不认识我的人已经被提前打了招呼，说跟盖伊一起会很开心。
So it was like they had already kind of warmed up the people that didn't know me, like, oh, we're gonna have a great time with Guy.
你懂吧？
You know?
作为嘉宾，这些都是你想听到的好话，但……
All all the good things you wanna hear as a But guest the...
不。
No.
有意思的是，我拍了《精神病院》之后，直到第六季才回来执导。
The interesting thing was I did Asylum, and then I didn't come back to direct again till season six.
不会吧。
No way.
那是……
It was...
你知道，我之前不认识鲍勃和菲尔，但我跟金·曼纳斯很熟。
You know, I didn't know Bob or Phil, and I did know Kim Manners very well.
而且金那时候好像刚被任命，大概就在那之前两三集吧。
And Kim had just been named, I think, or, like, maybe two or three episodes before that hit.
他们……
They...
因为节目刚开始的时候，他们并没有一个制片人兼导演。
Because when the show started, they didn't have a, like, producer director.
所以金就被他们从退休状态拉了出来，让他来负责那个节目。
So Kim, they kinda yanked out of retirement and got him to come up and do that show.
我和大卫·纳特，我跟金认识很久了，因为我以前在一些节目里给他做过操作员，而且我……
Me and David Nutter, I go way back with Kim because I had operated for him on some shows, and I just...
印出来。
Print it.
你知道，他有最棒的……
You know, he's got the greatest...
或者说他以前有。
Or he did.
最棒的总指挥。
The greatest general
来吧，各位。
Come on, guys.
好了。
Alright.
咱们加把劲，把这个搞定。
Let's let's kick this in the ass.
他是最棒的，我们所有人都……
He was the greatest, and we all...
显然，大家都喜欢那样。
Everybody loved that, obviously.
如果你……
If you you...
我相信每个人都在这个播客里聊过，是的。
I'm I'm sure everybody's talked on this podcast Yeah.
对金·曼纳有着美好而深刻的回忆。
Has fond, great memories of Kim Manor.
所以我认识那些人，这种事就是这样，你知道，他们打电话来，如果你没空，他们下个季度或者后面几集再找你。
So I knew those guys, and it's just one of those things where, you know, they call, and if you're not available, they try you again next season or, like, in the back nine.
如果你没空，他们就会继续找别人。
If you're not available, they kinda move on.
我的意思是，有趣的是，我因为其他剧集的几集来过，我会和詹森、贾里德以及一些剧组成员一起吃晚饭、喝点东西什么的。
I mean, the interesting thing was I came up for other episodes of other series, and I would have dinner, drinks, whatever, with Jensen and Jared and some of the crew members.
所以我一直跟大家保持联系，他们说，我们想请你回来。
So I kept in touch with everybody, and they were like, well, we wanna have you come back up.
后来，我记得大概在第六季的时候，他们稍微调整了一下。
And so eventually, I think on season six, they shook things up a little bit.
显然，埃里克离开了。
Obviously, Eric moved on.
莎拉接手了，然后我的经纪人……
Sarah kinda took over, and my agent...
我当时的新经纪人和鲍勃·辛格是朋友。
My new agent at the time was friends with Bob Singer.
他们都是旧金山巨人队的球迷，虽然这也没什么特别的。
They're both San Francisco Giants fans for whatever that's worth.
然后……
And...
他说，我给鲍勃打个电话吧，因为你，你知道，你……
He says, let me put in a call to Bob because you, you know, you...
我当初跟这个经纪人签约的时候，就提了一个要求，就是给我做个汇报。
One of my thing when I signed with his agent was, you know, give me a debrief.
你在哪些剧组有过特别好的经历？
What shows did you have a great experience on?
还有哪些……
What what...
然后我就随口提了一句，说我还演过《邪恶力量》这部剧。
And so I said, you know, kind of as an afterthought, you know, did this show Supernatural.
我知道他们刚又续订了，因为我跟那些人都挺熟的，我们经常发短信联系。
I know they just got picked up again because I'm friends with all the guys, we text and everything.
我觉得我在那部剧里表现还不错，那集叫《精神病院》，我拍得很开心。
And I thought I did okay on this show, this episode called Asylum, and I had a great time.
他就给鲍勃打了个电话，鲍勃直接说，行，把他加回名单里。然后我记得我演了《家庭事务》，接着又演了《绞刑架之丘》，最后就成了《边疆之地》。
And He made one phone call to Bob and Bob just said, Yeah, we'll put him back in the roster, and I think I did Family Matters, and then that turned into West was Gallows Pole and eventually became Frontierland.
第六季我又回归了，但中间差不多有四季，我都没……
I got back in the fold in season six, but for like four seasons, I didn't...
那时候基本上就是，你知道，什么都没有。
There was like, you know, nothing.
有意思。
Interesting.
但这一行就是这样运作的。
But that's how the business works.
确实。
Sure.
你知道，你知道……
You know you know...
《邪恶力量》就是这么运作的。
That's how Supernatural worked.
我是说，我们都有点……
I mean, we all kinda...
我们早期参与过，然后有一段……
We worked on it early, and then there was a...
然后你又会绕回来，是的。
And then you kinda circles back around Yeah.
为了
For
而且你不会把这些事放在心上，因为那只是他们联系你或者你换了经纪人、代理人的方式。
And you don't take that stuff personally because it it is just where they reach out or you change agents, you know, reps.
对。
Sure.
你就是失宠了。
You just fall out of favor.
我觉得网络电视有一点很有意思，不是所有人都明白，就是会有很多导演进进出出。
That is one of the things I think is interesting about network TV that not everybody understands is that there's a slew of directors that come through the door.
你会有一个常驻的……
You get a recurring...
你会有一个编剧室，里面有很多编剧多年来一直很稳定。
You get a a writer's room with a lot of consistent writers in the room over the years.
这可能会变，但总有一些老前辈在里面带新人。
That might change, but there's always some old guard in there to bring up the new guard.
演员方面呢。
There are actors.
你可以长期留住一个演员阵容。
You can hold on to a cast for a long time.
有时候会有变动，但总的来说，还是有一些，怎么说呢，中坚力量在演员阵容里。
Sometimes there's changes, but overall, there's some there's some, again, stalwart figures in the cast.
导演方面就很不稳定，谁进谁出很难说。
The directing can be really volatile in terms of who's coming in and who's coming out.
你可能会有一季。
You can have a season.
这是我一直搞不懂这个行业的一点。
And this is one thing I never understood about the business.
比如说，如果第一季的导演都很棒，但要把他们都请回来可没那么容易，因为他们都去忙别的事了。
If, like, if season one, all the directors are great, it's not just as easy to bring them all back because they all go on to do other things.
你知道吗？
You know?
你不是……
You're not...
他们管这叫“金手铐”，就是制片人兼导演。
They call it the golden handcuffs, which is being a producer director.
而且，你知道，我最早的一份工作，《第三守望》，他们让我当制片人兼导演，这让我留在了纽约。
And, you know, one of my first gig, Third Watch, they made me a producer director, which kept me in New York.
那时候，我还是个新导演。
At the time, I was a new director.
我的意思是，你知道，我做过经验丰富的摄影师，在世界各地的片场待过，但那是一次很棒的经历。
I mean, you know, experienced camera operator and been on sets all around the world and everything, but it was a great experience.
但很多时候，导演不想要那样，因为你想要那种……
But a lot of times, the director doesn't want that because you want that...
你想要自由自在，想去其他剧组，住在不同的地方。
You wanna be footloose and fancy free and jump on other shows and live in different camps.
但是，是的，我的意思是，那就是……
But, yeah, I mean, that's...
你知道，这是一个三周的承诺，七天的准备，八到九天的拍摄。
You know, it's a three week commitment, seven days of prep, eight eight or nine days of shooting.
关于《庇护所》有趣的是，我觉得那是九天的拍摄。
And the interesting thing about Asylum is I think it was a nine day shoot.
我最后一天是和第二组一起拍的，但我觉得有八天……
My last day was with a second unit, but I think eight...
其中七八天完全是在里弗维尤拍摄的，众所周知，那是一个已退役的真正精神病院。
Seven or eight of those days were completely 100% at Riverview, which is, as we all know, the decommissioned true insane asylum.
据说那里有鬼。
That is rumored to have ghosts.
所以让我们再强调一下这一点。
So let's just reiterate that.
拍摄这个地方实际上是一个……
Where this thing was shot was actually a...
一个废弃的……
An abandoned...
加拿大温哥华的一个前精神病院。
A former insane asylum in Vancouver, Canada.
而且，如果你在温哥华做任何事，如果……
And and if you do anything in Vancouver, if...
即使你不在这里拍摄，你也会把它作为……来考察。
Even if you don't shoot there, you will scout it as...
我的意思是，想想所有……
I mean, think everything of...
我的意思是，你知道，我在温哥华拍过的几十集里，至少有一天，你知道，我们……
I mean, in the, you know, the the dozens and dozens of episodes I've done in Vancouver, at least one day, again, you know, we...
我可能不会在那里拍摄，但我几乎为我做过的每件事都去那里考察过。
I may not shoot there, but I definitely have scouted it for pretty much everything I've ever done.
所以这非常完美。
And so it was perfect.
这个剧本差不多就是围绕那个地方写的，因为我觉得约翰·谢班，也就是联合编剧……
It was kinda written around that location, because I think John Sheiban, who co wrote it...
《精神病院》的联合编剧，他以前参与过《X档案》。
Co wrote Asylum, had been on X Files.
然后他就说，哥们，你知道吗，里弗维尤太适合这个了。
And so he goes, man, you know, Riverview is perfect for this.
所以我们给他看了些照片。
So we showed him some photos.
当然，杰瑞·瓦尼克说，我会把这些都布置好，我们会用那些生锈的旧轮床。
Of course, Jerry Wanick said, I'm gonna, you know, this all up, and we'll do these old rusty gurneys.
对。
And Yeah.
所以……
So...
而且，你知道，我没办法……
And, you know, I can't...
我是杰瑞·瓦内克和塞尔日·勒杜克的粉丝俱乐部主席，
I'm I'm the president of the Jerry Wanek and Serge Leducet
我们都是会员。
Fan club as we all are.
所以我和杰瑞玩得很开心。
So so Jerry and I just had a blast with it.
而且，如果你回头看那集，用胶片拍摄，光线很暗，
And, you know, if you remember looking back at that episode, shooting on film, low, you know, low light.
那是最美的画面之一……
It's one of the most gorgeous thing...
是我最自豪的事情之一。
One of the things I'm most proud of.
哦。
Oh.
而且托德，托德可能有很多和塞尔日合作的好故事。
And Todd and Todd's probably got tons of great stories about working with Serge.
那么，托德，说到这一集，你知道，这里面有……
Well, Todd, with this episode, you know, there's...
很明显，这里面有很多鬼魂和特效。
Obviously, you've got a lot of ghosts, effects with that.
在后期制作中，你是怎么把这些组合起来的？后来随着技术成熟，我们在剧集后期转向了数字制作，这又带来了哪些变化？
How was that in post production putting that together, and how did that change once technology matured and we went digital later in the show?
问这个问题其实挺有意思的，因为就在……
It's actually an interesting episode to ask that question because right at...
我记得这大概是第十集，而《皮肤》那一集要么就在它前面，要么就在它后面。
I think this was, like, episode 10, and then skin was either just before or just after it.
我觉得是在它前面。
Think just before.
而且这发生在第一季播出期间，那时候……
And this was during the run of the first season where...
而电视台和网络在制作第一季的剧集时，通常都会这么做。
And the studios networks tend to do this on first season shows.
一般来说，第一季的剧集直到快结束的时候才会顺畅起来。
First season shows, in general, don't run smooth until you're near the end.
我们当时被扔进了一个情况，前几集里有一集的剧本还没完全准备好。
And we were thrown into a situation where the first few episodes, one script was not quite ready to go.
另一集剧本被提前投入制作……
Another script got put into production early...
更早。
Earlier.
而且在我们拍摄完之后，还有一些调整，导致中间那几集，大概第九、十、十一、十二集左右，后期制作的时间非常紧张。
And also after we shot, there was some shuffling around, which it caused a couple episodes right there in the middle, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, around there, to have really fast turnarounds in post.
所以《疯人院》就是其中一集，后期可能只有十二天的时间。
So Asylum was one of the episodes that had maybe twelve days of post.
我想对那些可能不太了解“周转”这个词的人说，意思是他们……
And I just wanna say for people might not know the term turnaround, meaning they...
它必须从拍摄素材变成成片。对。
It had to go from footage to a Right.
很快就能播出的剧集。
Airable episode very quickly.
所以这个周转时间……
So the turnaround...
当我说十二天的后期制作，意思是从我们拿到最后一天……
When when I say twelve days of post, that means that refers to from when we get the last day...
最后一天的素材，到我们必须交付的时候。
The last day's footage until we have to deliver.
最终交付。
Final deliver.
所以在这十二天里，那些是工作日，不包括周末，但你必须经历……
So within those twelve days, those were workdays, not including weekends, but you have to go through...
剪辑师得剪出一个版本。
And the editors gotta get a cut.
导演会进来。
A director comes in.
他们也得剪出他们的版本。
They gotta get their cut.
天哪。
Good lord.
制片人也得剪出他们的版本，然后他们把它发给工作室，工作室给意见，再发给电视台，电视台也给意见。
Producers have to get their cut, and then they send it to the studio who gives notes, send it to the network who gives notes.
而且对于第一季的节目，
And for a first season show
基本上在早期，
Pretty much early on
厨房里厨师太多了。
Lots of cooks in the kitchen.
确实是这样。
There are.
而且很多时候，工作室希望在送到电视台之前先过两遍。
And and a lot of times, the studio wants two passes before it goes to the network.
然后电视台那边还要两轮修改意见。
Then the network wants two passes of notes.
所以我们早就知道这个时间表会是这样，而且你真的没办法给某一版剪辑更多时间。
So we knew ahead of time that this schedule was coming up, and you really don't have any options on giving one cut more time than the other.
你只能……
You just...
我只能跟制片公司和电视台说，唯一的办法就是你们拿一版剪辑，现在这种情况很常见，因为时间表太紧了。
I just had to say to the studio network, the only way to do this is for you guys to get one cut, which happens often these days because the schedules are so tight.
而且你必须压缩剪辑时间。
And you have to cut down the edit.
剪辑师基本上拿到素材就得马上剪完。
The editor basically has to have his cut done as soon as he receives the dailies.
安东尼·平克是这部片子的剪辑师。
And Anthony Pinker was the editor on this.
很棒的剪辑师。
Great editor.
是个好人。
Good dude.
而且他……
And he...
我不知道他是怎么做到的，但他很快就把它拼出来了。
I don't know how he did it, but he assembled this thing so quickly.
而且我觉得就是这一集。
And I think it was this episode.
我记得我给你打了电话，盖伊，我说，你大概只有半天时间来剪你的版本。
I think I called you up, Guy, and I said, you have about half a day for your cut.
通常来说，一个小时的节目，按照导演工会的规定，你得给导演留出剪辑室里的时间。
And, normally, for an hour show, DJ rules, you need to give the director their time in the edit room.
比如三天的节目时间。
Like, three days of show.
天。
Days.
四天。
Four days.
一个小时的节目给四天。
Four days for an hour long show.
剪辑师至少应该有两天的剪辑时间，而且通常他们还需要更多。
Editor should get at least two days, and they generally need more also.
每个人都希望有更多的时间。
Everybody needs more days.
任何节目你都可以剪。
You could cut any show.
任何一个单独的剪辑，你都可以在里面待上好几天。
You could be in there for days for any individual cut.
所以我不得不打电话给盖伊说，我们没法给你四天的时间。
So I had to call Guy and say, we we don't have four days to give you.
你能来两个小时吗？
Can you come in for Two hours.
下午行不行？
Like an afternoon?
咱们喝杯咖啡，顺便把节目剪了吧。
Let's grab a cup of coffee and cut the episode.
一般来说，我的意思是，有点像……
And generally, I mean, sort of the...
我导演任何……的风格，
My style of directing any...
总的来说，我以前常开玩笑说，DJ规则给我四天时间。
In general is I used to joke around that, you know, the DJ rules give me four days.
我通常只需要大约四个小时。
I usually only need about four hours.
所以我对这个安排挺满意的，但之后我好像就直接投入到下一个项目了。
So I was happy with that, but then I I think I went right on to it.
我记得那部剧叫《The Unit》，虽然是在洛杉矶，但拍摄地点在圣克拉丽塔，特别远，我当时就说，天哪，我可能连去都去不了。
I think it was a show called The Unit, which was LA, but it was way out in Santa Clarita, I said, man, I'm not gonna be able to even come in.
再说，这就是做自由导演的风险。
Again, that's the peril of being a freelance director.
我可能拍完一集第二天就得上飞机。
I may jump on a plane the day after I finish an episode.
所以我算是中了大奖，遇到了安东尼，他真是个了不起的剪辑师。
So I hit the lottery with Anthony, incredible editor.
我记得我们好像就打了个电话，差不多就这样。
I think we talked on the phone, that was kind of it.
至于肯，我当然跟金·曼纳斯说，帮帮我吧。
Ken, of course, I said to Kim Manners, Just help me out.
就是说，尽力而为。
Mean, do your best.
而且，你知道，这个人刚拍完《X档案》200集中的50集。
And, you know, again, here's the guy that just came off of directing 50 of the 200 episodes of X Files.
所以，我知道我找对人了，就这样。
So, you know, I knew I was in good hands, and so there you go.
我的意思是，这……
I mean, it it...
我知道。
And I know.
我想你和安东尼聊了一会儿。
I think think you spoke with Anthony for a little bit.
给他一些简单的指示，然后安东尼就把它拼凑起来，发给制片人，甚至制片人，埃里克、鲍勃、菲尔。
Give him a passing notes, and then Anthony just jammed it together, sent it on to the producers, and even the producers, Eric, Bob, Phil.
你们每人只有五分钟，伙计们。
You got five minutes each, guys.
差不多。
Pretty much.
就这样。
That was it.
我们得在一天半或者我们有的那么点时间内把它送到制片厂和电视台。
We gotta send it to the studio and network in a day and a half or however much time we had.
他们会生成那些视觉效果。
They're gonna generate all those visual effects.
如果你注意看这个节目，你会发现能数得出来的视觉效果屈指可数。
And if you notice, you look at the show, you could count on one hand how many visual effects are noticeable in that show.
这很大程度上要归功于Guy和整个团队，他们在拍摄现场、镜头前，实际上是在制作过程中完成的，也许还借助了那些真正住在那里的鬼魂的帮助。
That's a huge credit to Guy and the crew and what they did on set on set, on camera, actually during production, and maybe with the help of some of the real ghosts that actually lived there.
而且他们就在那里。
And they're and they're there.
真的帮了制作的大忙。
Really helped out the production.
我有
I have
一个问题关于其中一个效果，因为我们在准备的时候，昨天特意看了这个节目。
a question about one of the effects, because specifically watching it, we watched it yesterday preparing for this.
有一个镜头，那些家伙沿着走廊走，好像他们还没有...
There's a shot guy where where the guys go down the hall, like, they haven't...
他们还没找到什么吓人的东西，然后镜头往下摇，哦，那个……
They can't find anything creepy yet, and you pan down off Oh, the the...
还有那个做头部特效的人。
And the guy doing the head bit.
那是实拍的。
That was in camera.
对。
Yep.
那是个……
That's an...
我觉得……
I think...
我的意思是，那是胶片拍的。
I mean, it was film.
所以那是台阿莱弗莱克斯摄影机。
So that's an Aeroflex camera.
让我想起电影《雅各布的天梯》。
Remind me of the film Jacob's Ladder.
没错。
Exactly.
而且那个……
And that...
还有一段澳大利亚的视频什么的，我们大概参考了一下，但那是我的主意。
And there's an Aussie video or whatever that we kinda referenced, but that was an idea I had.
我说，我觉得这个我们可以直接在镜头里做出来。
And I said, I think we can do this in camera.
当然，塞尔吉什么挑战都愿意接。
Of course, Serge is up for any challenge.
基本上，它的原理是，你把这个设置编进摄像机里，它会同时改变帧率和快门角度，我记得是这样。
And basically, what it does is you program that into the camera, and it changes the frame rate and the shutter angle, I think, at the same time.
所以你就……
So you...
当你把镜头扫向那个我们有点像...的家伙时，
As as you make the pan across to the guy that we kinda...
那个可怜的演员，我们把他塞到了担架或者某种检查台下面。
This poor actor, we shoved him underneath a gurney or, you know, some kind of examination table.
我们让他只是摇头，用正常速度，但胶片摄影机在后期处理时做了手脚。
We had him just shake his head, just regular speed, but what what the film camera does in post.
所以那完全是摄影机内完成的。
And so that's all in camera.
而且，是的，我还没试过那个。哥们，
And, yeah, I haven't done that Dude,
那看起来太棒了。
it it looks phenomenal.
我坐在那儿看着，心里想，我知道这是哪一年拍的。
I was sitting there watching it going, I know what year this was made.
因为那个效果天衣无缝。
Because that's a seamless effect.
而且它……
And it...
这就解答了这个问题。
That that answers it.
是摄影机内完成的。
It's in camera.
那个整个效果就是靠调整摄影机速度实现的。
And that that that entire effect is just a camera speed thing.
你把它调好就行。
You dial it in.
你告诉摄影机，我想从每秒24帧的帧率，变到……
You tell the camera, I wanna go from this frame rate, 24 frames per second, to...
大概每秒12帧，或者可能每秒6帧，在五秒内完成。
I guess it's like 12 frames per second or maybe six frames per second in five seconds.
你是把这个变化藏在移动镜头里吗？
Are you burying it in the move?
所以你在摇镜头的时候，按下按钮。
So as you make the pan, you push the button.
然后随着摇镜头，快门角度也在变化，这就产生了那种拖影效果，让头部看起来有点模糊地来回晃动，不那么清晰。
And so as you make the pan, the shutter angle changes too, which gives you the smear, which makes the head kind of smear back and forth so it's not so sharp.
真是瘆人。
Creepy as hell.
确实瘆人，而且效果特别好。
So so creepy and so effective.
那那些鬼魂进进出出的镜头呢？
And what about the the ghosts going in and out?
那是先拍一个空房间，然后再拍一个人，然后就是那种……
Is that shooting an empty room and then shooting a person and just sort of...
那是剪辑出来的吗？
Is that an editing?
你是说他们拍那些镜头的时候，
You mean when they shoot them and
它们就是那种进进出出的，有点
And they're kind of in and out, they kind
像那种，哦，卡顿效果？
of like Oh, the glitch?
卡顿效果。
The glitch.
那种卡顿的鬼影。
The glitchy ghost.
我觉得那都是在后期做的，而且我觉得也不一定非得送去特效公司处理。
I think that's all done in post, and it's also, I think, not necessarily something you need to send out to the special effects house.
我觉得那就是剪辑出来的。
I think that's an edit
我们做过那种效果，我们用了
We did that we did that a
几种不同的方法。
couple of different ways.
最开始几次，我们就是这么做的。
The first few times, we did that.
特别是在试播集里，有好几次那个白衣女人的特效，那个效果是后来才做出来的。
Certainly in the pilot, there were a number of times with the woman in white that effect, that look didn't materialize until after.
并不是每次都拍了背景板。
It wasn't always shot with the backplate.
那个效果必须在后期制作中生成。
It had to be created in post.
而且有很多东西我们一开始都是在后期里临时做出来的，之后才正式做对。
And there are a lot of things that we sort of manufactured in post initially and then did it correctly after that.
你说拍背景板，意思是不是先拍背景，然后把演员放进去，再把演员去掉，这样你就有……
Meaning, when you say doing a backplate, you mean, like, you shoot the background, then you put the actor in, take the actor out, so you have...
你可以把不同的图层叠起来，放在
You can layer up the plates on
这个幻灯片上。
this slide.
如果有一块干净的背景板，没有演员在里面，那后期和视觉效果上就有更多操作空间了。
If you have a clean backplate without the actor in it, then you have many more options that you could do with post and visual effects.
你可以把演员放进去、拿出来、移动他们，或者把别人放进去。
You could put the actor in, out, and move them around, put somebody else in there.
他们可以跳来跳去。
They they could hop.
我是说……
I mean...
我记得当时真的尽量在拍摄时完成，可能是因为我们知道后期时间很紧。
And and I remember really trying to go for as much in camera as possible, maybe because we knew we had a short turnaround.
而且，约翰·谢班和理查德·哈德姆，我觉得他姓是这么发音的，他们一起写了那集。
But also, John Sheiban and Richard Hadham, I think that's how you pronounce his last name, they co wrote the episode.
在准备阶段，他们说，我们会……
And in prep, they go, we're gonna...
哥们，我们会给你寄几张DVD。
Guy, we're gonna send you a couple DVDs.
看看这些。
Watch these.
这就是让我们兴奋、给我们灵感的东西。
It's what we're all hopped up on and what was inspiring for us.
一部是《鬼影》，但不是美国版，另一部叫《姐妹情深》。
And one was Shudder, but not the American version, and another one called A Tale of Two Sisters.
一部来自曼谷，一部来自韩国。
One's from Bangkok and one's from South Korea.
那是在《午夜凶铃》和《咒怨》最火的时候。
It was like at the height of when the ring and Right.
所以我把这两部都看了，它们真是……
And so I watched both those, and they're...
所有吓人的部分都是用真实的化妆和实拍完成的，非常……
All the scary stuff is just real makeup and real in camera stuff, and it's super...
不是……
Not...
我不会说预算低，但就是那种感觉……
I wouldn't say low budget, but it's like...
不是那种一亿美元的大制作。
It's not a $100,000,000 budget.
所以我就说，你知道吗，这才是真正让人害怕的东西。
And so I said, you know, this is this is the stuff that really scares people.
我记得有一个周末，大白天，阳光明媚，我看其中一部，结果吓得我……
I remember watching one of them on a weekend, middle of the day, bright and sunny day, and it scared the...
我不得不关掉它，然后去伯拉德街走走，买个三明治什么的，因为……
I had to turn it off and go take a walk down Burrard Street for a sandwich or something because
低成本恐怖片确实有让人害怕的地方。
There's something about low budget horror films that are scary.
还有亚洲的……
And the Asian...
你知道，在那个特定的时期，有《午夜凶铃》《咒怨》，但如果你有机会的话……
You know, that particular, you know, point in time, The Ring, The Grudge, but but if you get a chance...
我知道这两部后来都被翻拍成了美国电影，但韩国的那部……
I know they both were both remade as American movies, but the South Korean...
《蔷花，红莲》和曼谷版的《鬼影》简直就是教科书级别的，教你不用太多台词就能把人吓到。
A Tale of Two Sisters and the Bangkok version of Shudder are are just like like textbook, how you can scare people without a Speaking lot of
说到影响，你之前提到《闪灵》对你作为电影制作人有影响。
of influences, you said The Shining was an influence of you as a filmmaker.
那……
Is...
这一集里有没有特别体现这种影响的地方？
Do you have any of that influence in this episode specifically?
我的意思是，你知道的，就是那种用稳定器拍的走廊漂浮镜头，当然啦。
Mean, you know, just the floating down, hallways, with Steadicam, of course.
而且，库布里克是那种让画面里自然发生事情的大师，不会让镜头动太多，或者就算动，也动得很微妙。
And, you know, Kubrick was a master of letting things happen in the frame without moving the camera too much, or when you move the camera, make it very subtle.
所以我喜欢那种特别慢的滑动、轨道滑动之类的。
So I liked all that just kind of like real slow sliding, dolly slides and stuff.
我觉得我之所以那么喜欢那两部电影，是因为那个人给我寄了DVD，那基本上就是我的标杆，当然还有《闪灵》，但是
I think I was so into those two movies because the guy sent me the DVDs that that was kind of the benchmark, and of course, The Shining, but
没错。
there you go.
嗯，这是我们这一季到目前为止最喜欢的一集之一。
Well, it's one of my favorites that we've watched so far this episode.
你总是喜欢那种好的、吓人的精神病院剧集。
You always love a good, you know, scary asylum episode.
对，我们真是中了大奖，因为一开始剧本就很好，而且我们安排了……
Yeah, hit the lottery because it was a great script going in, and we scheduled...
我和凯文·帕克斯，你知道，是他安排的，但我们当时说，听着，我们要……
Kevin Parks and I, you know, he scheduled it, but we kinda said, Here, we're gonna...
因为什么……
Because what...
我们的做法是尽量不去不同的楼层。
The way we did it is we tried not to go to different floors.
我们尽量让一个楼层看起来像很多楼层，因为一旦你拍完一个楼层，只要换一下布景，再弄点不同的光线，你知道，当然，就是……
We tried to make one floor look like many floors, because once you shoot out a floor, if you just change the set dressing and do different shafts of light, you know, of course, was just...
把轮椅都推走，放个检查台在原来放轮椅的地方，第二天回来，你就好像在另一条走廊里了。
It was easy to pull all your wheelchairs out and put, like, examination table where a wheelchair was, and you come back the next day, you're in another hallway.
所以演员们会绕过一个角落，我们第二天回来继续拍那个场景，但还是在同一层楼，因为我们发现一旦你开始移动那些800磅的摄影车，对，然后……
So the guys would come around a corner, and we'd come back the next day, we'd finish the scene, but it'd be the same floor, because we realized once you started moving 800 pound dollies up Right, and
所以你们就重新布置一下楼层。
so you just redress the floor.
所以我们有个计划，而且我们坚持执行了。
So we had a plan, and we stuck to it.
然后……
And then...
我的意思是，唯一麻烦的就是第九天，换了一组全新的工作人员，还要保持烟雾的效果。
I mean, only funky thing was that ninth day with a completely new crew and trying to maintain the level of smoke.
而且，如果你了解Serge的作品，那种我们常说的“死亡通道”的氛围，或者随便怎么叫，它非常特别。
And I mean, if you know Serge's work, like that atmospheric tube of death, or we used to call it, or whatever, it's very specific.
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