弗利特伍德·麦克乐队失传专辑时隔50年重见天日

大家好，我是安迪·罗迪克，主持《发球》播客，为您带来网球相关的一切资讯。美网即将开赛，我们节目会全程报道。有人能击败阿尔卡拉斯吗？可可·高芙能赢得第二个美网冠军吗？

Hey, everybody. It's Andy Roddick, host of serve podcast for your fix on all things tennis. US Open's coming up, and we're covering it on our show. Can someone knock off Algoraz and center? Can Koko Goff win her second US Open title?

斯维亚泰克能连续赢得第二个大满贯吗？萨巴伦卡能否突破自我，在2025年赢得大满贯？您可以在YouTube观看我们的美网报道，或通过亚马逊Prime赞助的播客平台收听。

Can Shviatek win her second Grand Slam title in a row? Can Sabalenka break through and win her Grand Slam in 2025? You can watch our coverage of the US Open on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcast brought to you in part by Amazon Prime.

说实话，存钱很难。知道如何投资储蓄？更难。但无论您是为今天存钱，还是为明天积累财富，Betterment都能帮助个人和小企业做出明智的财务决策，让钱生钱。

Let's face it. Saving is hard. Knowing how to invest what you've saved? Even harder. But whether you're saving for today or building wealth for tomorrow, Betterment helps people and small businesses make smart decisions with their money and put it to work.

他们通过自动化让储蓄更简单，通过优化让投资更智能。他们打造的创新技术由金融专家支持，专为那些曾说过“我觉得我能做得更好”的人服务。所以，投资自己，投资您的事业。

They automate to make saving simpler. They optimize to make investing smarter. They build innovative technology backed by financial experts for anyone who's ever said, I think I can do better. So be invested in yourself. Be invested in your business.

选择Betterment投资。访问betterments.com了解更多。投资有风险，收益不保证。

Be invested with Betterment. Go to betterments.com to learn more. Investing involves risk, performance not guaranteed.

近年来，Fleetwood Mac现象级复兴——从TikTok病毒式传播到百老汇戏剧和流媒体剧集灵感均源自乐队。新一代乐迷的增长使得绝版多年的专辑《Buckingham Nicks》需求激增。这张1973年由林赛·白金汉和史蒂薇·妮克丝在加入Fleetwood Mac前录制的专辑，黑胶唱片已成收藏品。时隔四十年，Rhino唱片公司终于将在9月19日重新发行。几个月前，我们探讨了Fleetwood Mac的传奇，并采访了安德鲁·伯德和麦迪逊·坎宁安，听他们诠释这张备受喜爱的《Buckingham Nicks》专辑。

Fluid Mac has had a phenomenal resurgence in recent years from TikTok viral fame to Broadway plays and streaming TV series inspired by the band. Their growing fandom among a new generation has created a demand for the long out of print album, Buckingham Nicks. The 1973 album by Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks recorded before they joined Fleetwood Mac. The vinyl record is a collector's item and now finally after four decades, on September 19, the album is being reissued by Rhino Records. A few months back, we look at the legacy of Fleetwood Mac and spoke with Andrew Bird and Madison Cunningham about their reinterpretation of the beloved Buckingham Nicks album.

值此之际，我想再次与您分享这期节目，为您迎接这张珍稀录音的再版预热。希望您喜欢。欢迎收听《Switched On Pop》，我是创作人查理·哈丁。

Given the timing, I wanna share this episode with you again to help you get ready for the re release of this adored recording. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to Switched On Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding.

我是音乐学者内特·斯隆。

And I'm musicologist Nate Sloane.

你认为我们正处在Fleetwood Mac复兴潮中吗？Mac热潮？绝对是的。你觉得他们为何如此吸引人？

Would you say that we're living in a sort of Fleetwood Mac Renaissance? The Macassants? Absolutely. What do you think makes them so appealing to folks?

好的，如果要分析的话，Fleetwood Mac拥有非凡的歌曲创作能力。

Okay. If I had to break it down, Fleetwood Mac have incredible songwriting.

制作无可挑剔。

Immaculate production.

惊艳的和声。戏剧性十足。

Stunning vocal harmonies. And so much drama.

这些确实都是事实。我喜欢很多诞生于1960年代的乐队都具备这些特质，但极少能因其持续的多代吸引力而让歌曲重返热门100榜单。比如Fleetwood Mac就起源于六十年代末，最初是由鼓手Mick Fleetwood、贝斯手John McVeigh和吉他手Peter Green组成的英国蓝调乐队。后来Christine McVeigh也加入担任键盘手。

These are definitely all true. I like there are a lot of bands born out of the 1960s that have a lot of these qualities and yet very few get to have songs returned to the hot 100 because of their ongoing multi generational appeal. I mean, Fleetwood Mac came out of the late sixties. They were a British blues group founded by Mick Fleetwood on drums, John McVeigh on bass, Peter Green on guitar. Eventually, Christine McVeigh joins on keys.

除了频繁更换的成员外。到了七十年代，乐队在加入加州二人组Lindsey Buckingham和Stevie Nicks后转型为流行摇滚巨星，凭借1975年同名白色专辑一炮而红，随后又以1977年专辑《Rumors》超越自我。距离乐队上次巡演已有五年之久。

In addition to a number of rotating cast of characters. Later, the band evolves into a pop rock sensation in the seventies when they add the Californian duo, Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. And the band takes off on their self titled so called white album from 1975. And then tops themselves with their 1977 album, Rumors. It's been five years since the band has toured.

他们上一次发行新专辑更是二十多年前的事了。不幸的是，乐队成员相继离世，包括2022年去世的Christine McVeigh，这不仅给乐队造成巨大裂痕，对乐迷也是重大损失，标志着Fleetwood Mac活跃时期的终结。尽管如此，我认为这支乐队及其音乐正迎来新的巅峰，他们已进入传奇怀旧阶段。

It's been more than twenty years since they've released a new album. Tragically, they've lost bandmates, including Christine McVeigh, who died in 2022, creating a major rift for the band, a loss for fans, really marking the end of Fleetwood Mac's active years. And nonetheless, I feel like this band and their music is at a new peak. I feel like they have reached a legendary nostalgia phase.

是啊。如果你在2020年代告诉我，当红新乐队会是Fleetwood Mac。我肯定会问，你抽什么了？但2020年，那个TikTok视频火了。我记得那家伙的名字好像是什么狗狗脸之类的。

Yeah. If you had told me that in the twenty twenties, the hot new band on the scene would be Fleetwood Mac. I would have been like, what are you smoking? But 2020, we had that viral TikTok. I wanna say the guy's name was like the the dog the doggy face or something.

对吧？

Is that right?

420狗狗脸208？

Four twenty dog face two zero eight?

420狗狗脸208。这家伙留着八字胡，踩着滑板，喝着激浪汽水，听着Fleetwood Mac，轻轻松松就收获了几十亿的浏览量。

Four twenty dog face two zero eight. This dude just chilling with his handlebar mustache and his skateboard drinking a Mountain Dew, listening to Fleetwood Mac, and getting like bajillions of views.

准确说是Ocean Spray蔓越莓汁。

An ocean spray cranberry juice to be clear.

好吧好吧，我承认我错了。

Okay. Okay. I stand corrected.

好吧。他免费得到了一辆车，最终用这个视频获得的捐款建了房子。太不可思议了。因为他帮助Fleetwood Mac唯一一首冠军单曲《Dreams》重新登上公告牌排行榜。从那以后，我们有了亚马逊Prime 2023年的视频剧集《黛西·琼斯与六人组》，讲述了一个虚构的七十年代摇滚乐队，基本上就是Fleetwood Mac的故事。

Okay. He got a free car and eventually built a house out of the donations that he received for this video. Unreal. Because he helped bring Fleetwood Mac's only number one single, Dreams, back onto the Billboard charts. And since then, we've had Amazon Prime's video series Daisy Jones and the Six from 2023 that follows a fictional nineteen seventies rock band that is basically Fleetwood Mac.

欲盖弥彰。

Thinly veiled.

然后还有获得多项托尼奖的舞台剧《立体声》

Then you have the multi Tony award winning play Stereophonic

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

这部剧也大致基于Fleetwood Mac 1977年标志性专辑《Rumors》的制作过程。但我不明白他们怎么能这样明目张胆，因为这基本上就是Fleetwood Mac的故事。

That is also loosely based off of the making of Fleetwood Mac's iconic 1977 album rumors. But I don't know how they're getting away with this thing because it's basically just Fleetwood Mac.

麦卡锡式的延续。

The Macassanse continues.

今年十月出版了一本很棒的书，马克·布莱克的《Dreams: Fleetwood Mac的多重人生》。还有一张几周前发行的新专辑，由Andrew Bird和Madison Cunningham合作，挖掘了被长期遗忘的录音《Buckingham Nicks》，这是Fleetwood Mac的前身。我们稍后会听到他们的音乐。但要理解Fleetwood Mac的魅力，我觉得我们需要听听他们的音乐，尤其是他们最重要的两首歌。为了带我们回到那个时代，让我们回到六十年代末。

There's a great book called Dreams, The Many Lives of Fleetwood Mac by Mark Blake that was released this October. And there's a new album, just a few weeks old, by Andrew Bird and Madison Cunningham that unearths the long forgotten recording, Buckingham Nicks, that's a precursor to Fleetwood Mac. We're gonna hear from them in the second half. But to understand the appeal of Fleetwood Mac, I feel like we need to listen to their music, and arguably two of their most important songs. To get us there, let's go back to the late nineteen sixties.

我们在旧金山湾区，也就是你我开始我们节目的地方。当然不是六十年代，我们是二十一世纪十年代开始的，但我们现在回到了六十年代。跟着我的思路走。我是说，你还戴着飘逸的围巾呢。

We're in the San Francisco Bay Area, where you and I started our show. Well, not the nineteen sixties. We started in the twenty tens, but we're we're back in the nineteen sixties. Stay with me. I mean, you're wearing a flowy scarf.

好吧。

Okay.

大麻的烟雾正飘荡在海特街上空。

The the pot smoke is wafting over Haight Street.

林赛·白金汉与史蒂薇·妮克丝当时在南湾附近。他们在高中相识，建立了音乐伙伴关系并加入了一个名为The Fritz的乐队。随后发展出恋情。他们离开乐队独自前往洛杉矶发展，并于1973年发行了专辑《Buckingham Nicks》。

Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks, they're nearby in the South Bay. They meet in high school. They form a musical partnership and join a band called The Fritz. A romantic relationship ensues. They move to LA to make it on their own without the band, and they release an album called Buckingham Knicks in 1973.

这张专辑商业上遭遇失败。但某天，Fleetwood Mac乐队的鼓手米克·弗利特伍德——乐队名字一半源自他——走进洛杉矶传奇录音室Sound City时，正巧林赛·白金汉在场。白金汉为米克演奏了几首曲子，而当时米克正急需为乐队寻找优秀吉他手，于是邀请白金汉加入乐队，连带他的伴侣史蒂薇·妮克丝也一同加入。不久后，这个跨国籍、跨性别的乐队在制作专辑《Rumors》期间开始分崩离析。约翰·麦克维与克里斯汀·麦克维的婚姻破裂，

It's a commercial failure. But one day, Mick Fleetwood, drummer of Fleetwood Mac, also half named after him, walks into Sound City, a storied LA studio, and Lindsay Buckingham is there. He plays some of his tunes for Mick Fleetwood, and Mick Fleetwood is in need of a great guitarist for the band, so invites Buckingham into the band who also brings along Stevie Nicks, his partner. And it's not long before this mixed nationality, mixed gender ban starts to fall apart in the making of their album Rumors. John McVee and Christine McVee's marriage starts to fall apart.

麦克弗利特伍德自身也面临婚姻问题。而白金汉与妮克丝的关系急剧恶化。他们创作了一组关于分手的双子歌曲，这些作品后来成为定义这对情侣乃至整个乐队未来数十年的标志。这次分手催生了不朽的流行金曲：白金汉创作的《Go Your Own Way》和妮克丝创作的《Dreams》，这两首歌以截然不同的音乐视角记录了他们分手的故事。妮克丝曾说，这本质上是由两个人针对同一段关系创作的同一首歌。

McFleetwood's got his own marital issues. And Buckingham and Nick's relationship is absolutely deteriorating. And they write a twin set of breakup songs that really go on to define this couple and the whole band for decades to come. This breakup births the immortal pop songs, Go Your Own Way, written by Buckingham, and Dreams, written by Nicks, that serve as contrasting musical accounts of their breakup. Nicks says that they're effectively the same song written by two different people about the same relationship.

让我们从《Go Your Own Way》开始。

Let's begin with Go Your Own Way.

这首歌我听过无数次，却从未思考过它的起源。是的，还有那些弦外之音。更别说将其视为《梦境》的另一面了。

I've heard this song so many times. I don't think I've ever thought about the genesis of it. Yeah. And the the sort of extracurricular meaning of it. Much less considered it the other side of a coin with dreams.

所以我很期待能以全新的视角来聆听这些耳熟能详的歌曲。

So I'm I'm excited to hear these ubiquitous songs in a new light.

没错。我以前只觉得这是首快节奏、吉他主导的摇滚，你知道的，粗犷而富有感染力的嗓音，某种‘走自己的路’的分手主题。但其中蕴含的远不止这些。对我来说，一切始于这首歌的节奏。林赛·白金汉当时在听滚石乐队的《Street Fighting Man》，正是其鼓点激发了他的灵感。

Yeah. I'd always just heard this as like an uptempo, guitar driven rocker, you know, raw, emotive vocal, some kind of go your own way, break up, whatever. But there's so much more going on here. And where it all begins for me is the rhythm of the song. You see, Lindsay Buckingham had been listening to the Rolling Stones Street Fighting Man and was inspired by its beat.

我原本没联想到这点，但现在听来，两首歌的能量都主要来自吉他和鼓点间的节奏冲突。吉他遵循传统的扫弦模式，而鼓点却强调那些不协调的怪异弱拍。

I wouldn't have made the connection, but now I hear that both of these songs get a lot of energy from this rhythmic dissonance between the guitar and the drums mainly, I think. Yeah. Where where the guitar is doing sort of this conventional strumming pattern. But then the drums are like kind of emphasizing these weird off beats that don't quite line up.

然后你就会疑惑：等等，这首歌的节拍到底在哪？

And you're like, wait, where is the the meter of this thing?

没错。这完全是为了迷惑你。你根本听不出这首歌的强拍在哪里。这正是林赛·白金汉在《走自己的路》中玩的把戏。

Yeah. It's all about trying to confuse you. You don't know where the downbeat of this song is. And that's exactly what Lindsay Buckingham does in Go Your Own Way.

好的，内特。是的。

Okay, Nate. Yes.

强拍在哪儿？

Where's the one?

肯定不是米克·弗利特伍德每小节都敲军鼓的那个位置。这点我很确定。对。那样就太简单了。不是的。

Well, it's not where Mick Fleetwood is putting that snare hit every measure. I know that for sure. Yes. That would be too simple. No.

我觉得是在军鼓敲击前的那一刻。就像‘咚’一声军鼓。‘咚’一声军鼓。你可以数‘咚’一声军鼓。

I think it's right before that snare hit. It's like one snare hit. One snare hit. You can go one snare.

你可以走了。你就像是在说，是不是那样

You can go. You're like, is that is that

对吧？我

right? I

认为这有待商榷。这里有三件乐器，各司其职：一把原声吉他扫着弦，一把电吉他持续轰鸣，还有鼓组中的军鼓和通通鼓。每件乐器都落在不同的节拍点上，节奏相当切分，彼此间毫无融合。我认为这正映射了乐队中所有人各自为政的紧张状态。

think it's up for debate. You have three instruments here, each doing their own thing. You have an acoustic guitar strumming, an electric guitar chugging along, and this snare and toms on the drums. Everybody is hitting different parts of the beat, quite syncopated, nobody's gelled together. I think this mirrors all of the tension in the band of everybody doing their own thing.

直到进入副歌部分大家开始齐奏时，我们才真正找到那个作为音乐根基的强拍所在。

And we really don't know where that sense of home downbeat is until we get to the chorus and everybody starts playing along.

所以这支乐队只有在互相叫嚣着要分道扬镳时，才找到了统一性。

So the band only finds unity when they're telling each other to break apart.

算是吧。没错，这难道不阴暗吗？而且我要指出，在节奏部分，据说他们创作这首歌的方式是尝试一起现场录制。林赛·白金汉甚至在其他房间用他的吉他放大器弹电吉他，这样他可以单独收音，但同时能与整个乐队合奏。

Kinda. Yeah. Isn't that dark? And I should note, you know, in the rhythm section, supposedly, the way that they made the song was that they tried to record it live together. Lindsay Buckingham even played an electric guitar with his guitar amp in the other room so that he could mic it in isolation, but he could play along with the whole group.

但基本上，这方法没奏效。不过在他们录音时，史蒂薇·妮克丝在摇铃鼓。而在最终版本里，史蒂薇的铃鼓声消失了——我想这首歌算是给她的送别曲吧，虽然我不太确定。

And basically, it didn't work. But when they were tracking, Stevie Nicks was playing tambourine. And in the final thing, there is no tambourine with Stevie Nicks because this song is a send off to her, I think. I'm not sure.

所以原本有段史蒂薇·妮克丝的铃鼓部分被剪掉了。

Well, so there was a Stevie Nicks tambourine part that got left on the cutting room floor.

这正是我要说的。这首歌并非真正现场录制，而是通过层层叠录完成的——每个音轨都是分开录制的。

That's what I'm telling you. And instead of actually tracking this thing live, this song came together as a set of overdubs. Every single track is recorded separately.

所以这支乐队只有在成员各自隔离演奏时才能运作，这简直是他们现状的完美隐喻。但有趣的是，我认为这个乐队能经久不衰的标志之一，正是那种工厂密封式的制作——每个音乐元素都如水晶般剔透完美，半个世纪后听起来依然紧凑鲜活。某种程度上，这种分裂感也正是他们创造出如此纯净音效的成功秘诀。

So the band only works when each of their members is performing in isolation. That's a pretty clear metaphor for the state of affairs here. Yeah. But it's also interesting because I feel like one of the hallmarks of this group and one of the reasons they've stood the test of time is the sort of factory sealed production where every musical element is so crystalline and perfect and it still sounds so like, tight and fresh, you know, half a century Yeah. Later in a way that fractiousness was also part of the secret of their success in creating this pristine sound.

没错，这首歌耗时四个月，辗转三个录音室完成。你可以说这隐喻了乐队内部动荡，也可以说林赛·白金汉作为制作人是个完美主义者——他逐段打磨，最终造就了这首轰动之作。不过我认为，音乐中最强烈的裂痕其实体现在歌词里。

Yeah. It took four months and three different recording studios to make this track. And you could say that, oh, it all is a metaphor for the band's internal turmoil. Or you might say, you know, Lindsay Buckingham is a real perfectionist in his production and made an absolute smash by working it out piece by piece and getting it just right. Nonetheless, the fissures in the music are present most potently, I think, in the lyrics.

对，不仅是副歌'你走你的路'，从开头就充满指责意味。

Yeah. It's not just the lead go your own way. It's from the very beginning. Kind of accusational here. Yeah.

爱不是正确的

Loving is not the right

带有攻击性的。

thing aggressive. To

就像在说'我可以给你我的爱，但你不愿接受'。这完全是在表达'不是我的问题，是你有问题'。

It's like, I could give you my love, but you won't take it from me. Yeah. This is a very much a it's not me, it's you.

这有点毒。

It's a little toxic.

而白金汉在第二段加入这句歌词时，真的惹恼了尼克他们。

And Buckingham really pissed off Nick's when he put in this line in the second verse.

转过来告诉我为什么

Turned Tell me why

收拾行李，到处留情就是你全部所求。

around, packing up, shacking ups all you wanna do.

所以本质上是在说，你不够专一。你总是离开然后和别人上床？

So essentially saying, like, you're not committed. You're you're always leaving and sleeping with someone else?

没错，正是这样。

Yeah. Exactly.

真恶心。

That's nasty.

确实很恶心。尼克斯在舞台现场表演时总会这么说，因为这支乐队最疯狂的地方在于它能持续活跃几十年。

It's really nasty. Nicks would say that when he was saying this on stage live because the crazy thing about the band is that it keeps on going for decades.

太离谱了。

So bananas.

每次他唱到这句歌词时，你就该对他咬牙切齿才对。

It's what you should just like seething at him whenever he would sing this line.

我可能是世界上唯一听到这个的人，但我还是想说出去，以防还有其他人也有同样的经历。是的，一样的体验。我一直以为他们在唱‘你可以称之为沿途的雷声，而不是又一个孤独的日子’。你可以称之为雷声。

I might be the only person in the world to hear this, but I just need to put it out in case there's someone else out there with this Yeah. Same experience. I always thought they were singing, you can call it thunder along the way instead of another lonely day. You can call it thunder.

直到最近，我才

And it was only until very recently that I

发现原来是别的东西。只是想知道是否还有人有同样的经历。请写信告诉我。

learned it was something else. Just need to know if anyone else had that same experience. Please write me.

嗯，我在想，史蒂文·尼克斯也许有过这种经历，因为雷声在她的回应歌曲《梦想》中是一个重要的隐喻。我认为，对于一首如此诋毁你的歌曲的愤怒，没有比写一首自己的回应歌曲更好的方式了。是的。

Well, I wonder if, Steven Nix maybe had that experience because thunder is an important metaphor in her response song Dreams. I think there is no better way to respond to anger over a song that so maligns you Yeah. Than to write your own response song.

伙计，如果《走你自己的路》全是关于节奏的复杂性和某种刻薄的愤怒。这首歌全是关于简单和寻找平静。它是如此平静，几乎空灵。歌词全是关于被洗净，你知道的，就像找到某种救赎。也有点刻薄。

Man, if Go Your Own Way was all about, like, rhythmic complexity and sort of caustic anger. The song is all about simplicity and, like, the search for peace. It's so placid and almost ethereal. The lyrics are all about being washed clean, you know, like finding some kind of redemption. A little nasty as well.

我们会讲到那个的。但我最后要说的是，这首歌的和弦进行简直不可思议。整首歌就是这两个和弦来回摆动。有桥段吗？这首歌有任何和声上的变化吗，查尔斯？

We'll get to that I think. But then the last thing I just have to say is the chord progression of this song is is incredible. It's just these two chords oscillating back and forth for the entirety of this track. Is there a bridge? Is there like any harmonic departure in this song, Charles?

没有。这首歌就是来回摆动。F到g。

Nope. The song just oscillates back and forth. F to g.

不停。四分钟。疯狂。

Doesn't stop. Four minutes. Wild.

它从来没有解决到主调。

It never resolves home to see the home key.

我是说，这绝对有先例。哦，是的。我想，大门乐队的《点燃我的火》。约翰·柯川的《我最喜欢的东西》也是这么做的。但这里感觉有点不同。

I mean, there are definitely precedents for this. Oh, yeah. I think, Light My Fire by the Doors. John Coltrane's My Favorite Things does the same thing. But this is this feels a little different here.

这真的营造出了一种类似恍惚的感觉，嗯。我想说是一种氛围。然后你可能会因为音乐如此舒缓而几乎忽略了歌词的强烈情感。

This this is like really creating this sort of trance like Mhmm. Vibe, I would say. And then you could almost miss the intensity of the lyrics for how soothing the music is,

我觉得这首歌非常适合史蒂薇·妮克丝。她说她十分钟就写完了这首歌。当时她在录音室，需要找个地方坐下来创作，于是获准使用了Sly Stone的特殊房间——那里铺满长毛地毯，有张用天鹅绒绳围起来的拱形床，还有一架Fender Rhodes钢琴。要知道，她并不以精通任何乐器著称，但却是个非常活跃的创作型歌手。

I It's really fitting song, I think, for Stevie Nicks. She says that she wrote this in ten minutes. She was in a studio and, needed a place to sit and write And, got access to Sly Stone's special room that had shag carpeting all over the place, a vaulted bed with a velvet rope roping off the bed, and a Fender Rhodes piano. And, you know, she was sort of known of as not being virtuosic on any instrument. But she was a very active songwriter.

我能理解，如果你不是个出色的钢琴家，可能会坐下来随便弹些和弦，比如F调，再来个G调。对，找到感觉后，灵感就自然涌出来了，明白吗？

And I kinda get like, if you're not a great pianist, you might sit down and just go like, there's a chord, F. There's another chord, G. I've got my vibe. Yeah. And then it just poured out, you know?

这首充满原始情感的曲目。当她拿给乐队听时，反响并不一致。克里斯汀说她觉得这首歌很无聊。顺便说，乐评人后来听到这首歌时也持相同观点。《滚石》杂志评价《Dreams》是首不错但分量较轻的曲子，而她鼻音般的演唱是专辑中唯一薄弱的声乐表现。

This raw emotional track. And when she brought it to the band, the reaction wasn't universally positive. Christine said that she thought it was boring. By the way, critics also agreed when they finally hear the song. Rolling Stone said that Dreams is a nice but fairly lightweight tune, and her nasal singing is the only weak vocal on the record.

《Cream》杂志表示副歌里那些气象学说教般的歌词完全可以省略。

Cream said that they could lyrically go without the meteorology lecture in the chorus.

这话太刻薄了。简直残忍。

That's cold. That's savage.

但这首歌的精髓全在演唱上。没错。实际上录制时，妮克斯先录了引导人声——这是很常见的做法，就像打个草稿，其他乐手可以跟着演奏，之后可能再重录主声部和和声等等。

This song is all about that vocal though. Yeah. In fact, when they tracked the song, Nick's first recorded a guide vocal. This is very common thing you do. Just sort of like a scratch vocal, so that then all the other players can play along, and then you'll maybe redo your main vocal and do harmonies and so on.

但那份草稿人声饱含的深刻情感让他们最终决定保留它作为正式版本。所以那些沙哑和不完美都是刻意为之，正是这些细微之处让歌曲如此打动人心。我是说，还有比这更惊艳的开场歌词吗？简直像在宣战。

But the scratch vocal had all of that just deep emotion that they kept the scratch vocal as the, final thing. So it's intentional. And I think all of those little moments of rasp and imperfections are what make it so potent. I mean, is there a better opening lyric than this? Like, away, shots fired.

对。如果你把这首歌看作《Go Your Own Way》的姊妹篇——那首歌抱怨'我能给你我的爱，但你不接受'——现在她回击道：喂喂喂，明明是你在要求自由。顺便说，他们早年在洛杉矶恋爱时穷得叮当响，是她当服务生赚钱养家，让他能整天呆家里钻研吉他编曲。

Yeah. If you hear this as a twin song, To Go Your Own Way, which claimed that, you know, I could give you my love, but you won't take it. Now she's saying, woah, woah, woah. You're the one who's like asking for freedom. And by the way, when they were in early relationship in LA and they were totally broke trying to make ends meet, she was the one waiting tables so that he could sit at home all day working out his, guitar parts.

典型情况对吧？所以从第一句就开始反击了。而且我觉得你在副歌里也捕捉到了一些东西，并不像歌曲表面听起来那么平静。

Typical. Yeah. Right? So shots fired from the very beginning. And I think you picked up something in the chorus as well that is not as maybe placid as the song sounds.

所以

So

首先，我们终于有了你误听的那声雷鸣

first of all, we have finally your thunder that you misheard in

在另一边。谢谢。就是它了。

the other side. Thank you. There it is.

我一直没完全理解这个不准确的比喻——雷声只在雨天出现，因为显然，没有雨也可能有雷电。

I've never completely understood the inaccurate metaphor of thunder only happens when it's raining because of course, there can be thunder and lightning without rain.

哇，你突然听起来像《Cream》杂志了。

Well, you sound like Cream magazine all of a sudden.

不，不，不，不。我觉得混合隐喻或不精确的隐喻完全没问题。

No. No. No. No. I think mixed metaphors or inaccurate metaphors are totally fine.

我觉得这可以解读为，欲望与爱的爆发只会在情感倾泻时发生，我是这么理解的。

I feel like it's open to interpretation of, like, eruptions of desire and love only happen when there's lots of emotion pouring out is kinda how I hear it.

这说得通。

That checks out.

但接着她又说，玩家只在你玩游戏时爱你。意思是，你只会和其他玩家在一起，因为你也是个玩家。或者作为音乐人，你只有在台上表演时才会被爱。

But then she's like, players only love you when you're playing. Like, you're only gonna get with other players because you're a player. Or you're only loved when you're playing on stage as a musician.

可能是吧。有趣的解读。

It may be. Interesting interpretation.

然后当你离开舞台时，你表现得像个混蛋。而我认为两首歌之间最强烈的联系在于这句歌词：'女人啊，她们来了又走'。她这是在告诉林赛·白金汉，后者曾在自己的歌中指责史蒂薇·妮克丝'收拾行装与人同居'——你不过是想四处留情。

And then when you're off stage, you're kind of a jerk. And then this is where I I feel like the strongest connection between the two songs exist is the lyric. Say women, they will come and they will go. She's saying this to Lindsay Buckingham, who has previously accused Stevie Nicks and his song of Packing up and shacking up. You just wanna sleep around.

最后当雨水将你洗净，你会明白。你会明白的。这就像在经历情感风暴后，你终将意识到自己犯了错。此刻听起来充满怨恨。我觉得这首歌比《走自己的路》更具情感深度，因为第二段彻底改变了我们对这种表面怨恨的体验。

And finally, when the rain washes you clean, you'll know. You'll know. And so it's kinda like after this big emotional storm, you'll finally realize like you made a mistake. This sounds pretty resentful to me at this point. I feel like this song has more emotional depth than Go Your Own Way because the second verse completely alters our experience of this seeming resentment.

只有我想缠绕你的梦境，你可有梦想要出售？这仿佛在说：当雨水洗净你时，我希望你能明白，我仍在为你魂牵梦萦。歌名虽叫《梦境》，却藏在第二段歌词里——其实本可以叫《雷声只在雨天响起》的。

It's only me who wants to wrap around your dreams and have you any dreams you'd like to sell. It's kind of saying like, once the rain washes you clean, I hope you realize, like, I'm still dreaming about you. The song is called Dreams, but the title is buried in the second verse. Like, this could have been called Thunder Only Happens When It's Raining. Yeah.

雨水将你洗净。

The rain washes you clean.

是啊。

Yeah.

甚至包括你失去的。但她告诉我们这其实关乎一个梦想，她希望这对恋人共同怀揣的梦想——意味着仍有转圜余地。

Or even what you lost. But she tells us that it's actually about a dream. She hopes that both these lovers are having. That like there's still there's still a chance.

天啊查尔斯，你跟420狗狗脸88分享过这个理论吗？

Damn, Charles. Have you shared this theory with four twenty doggy face eighty eight?

还没有。史蒂薇·妮克斯最近一直不接

I've not. Steven Nix has not been answering

我的电话。我觉得这事还有待观察。

my phone calls recently. I think that remains remains to be seen then.

你在节目开头提到，他们历久弥新的原因之一是Fleetwood Mac拥有至今听来仍很前卫的创作与制作能力。在我看来《梦境》算是早期当代流行乐的代表，很大程度上因为它就是个循环段落——F和G两个和弦来回切换永不解决，这正是当今常见的创作方式。

You pointed out at the top of the episode about one of the things that makes them so enduring is that Fleetwood Mac has these skills of songwriting and production that I think still sound very contemporary. In a lot of ways, Dreams to me is one of the earlier contemporary pop songs. And a lot of it has to do with the fact that it is just a loop. It is these two chords, F to G, back and forth, never resolving. This is a very common way of writing today.

走进一个房间，摆好电脑，设置一个小循环，两到四个和弦，然后尽可能多地创作旋律，直到完成整首歌。我们称这个过程为‘顶层创作’。对吧？《梦境》这首歌就是这样诞生的。实际上，《梦境》就是一个循环。

Getting in a room with a computer, setting up a little loop, two or four chords, and writing as many melodies against that as you can until you get a whole song. We call that process top lining. Right? And that's kind of what's happening in Dreams. In fact, Dreams is a loop.

他们直接循环了米克·弗利特伍德的鼓点部分，使其更具催眠效果。这是一个磁带循环，真正的磁带循环。没错，一圈圈转着，他们构建每个段落，让它们听起来完全独立，尽管底层的和声如此简单。比如，从引子和主歌开始，鼓、贝斯、吉他环绕着罗德电钢琴飞舞。

They literally looped Mick Fleetwood's drum part to make it more hypnotic. It's a tape loop. An actual tape loop Yeah. Going around and they build each section so that it feels completely independent even though the harmony is so simple underneath. Like, you start in the intro and verse, drums, bass, guitar flying all around Rhodes, piano.

进入预副歌部分，我们加入和声。键盘开始攀升到更高的八度，分解和弦的吉他，还有氛围音效。这在我看来就是当代流行音乐的制作方式。

You move into the pre chorus. We add harmonies. The keyboard starts climbing up to a higher octave, arpeggiated guitars, and vibes. That is a contemporary pop production to me.

查尔斯，这是我没想到的与现代音乐景观的联系。但我能联想到的是，我们在这个播客中经常讨论当今流行艺人如何从个人生活中挖掘音乐素材。是的。现在听这首歌时，我在想，弗利特伍德麦克乐队是不是某种程度上开创了这种风气？

That's a connection to our modern musical landscape that I wouldn't have made, Charles. But one that I could do is the fact that something we talk about a lot in this podcast is how much pop artists today mind their personal lives for their musical material. Yeah. And I feel like now listening to this track, I'm like, did Fleetwood Mac kinda start that?

我确实想深挖一下这个话题的历史，因为显然人们一直用个人生活作为音乐创作的素材。比如，11世纪的游吟诗人就写宫廷爱情和宫廷丑闻。19世纪的诗人拜伦勋爵以描写自己 scandalous 的风流韵事闻名。伊迪丝·琵雅芙的著名恋情最终都出现在她的歌里。琼尼·米切尔、约翰·列侬、小野洋子、马文·盖伊还出过一张关于离婚的专辑。

I I did wanna sort of dig through the history on this topic because obviously people have always used their personal lives as source material for music. Like, literally eleventh century troubadours used to write about courtly romances and and the scandals that were happening at court. Lord Byron in the nineteenth century, the poet famously wrote about his scandalous love affairs. Edith Piaf had famous relationships that ended up in her songs. Joni Mitchell, John Lennon, Yoko Ono, Marvin Gaye had an album about divorce.

但弗利特伍德麦克乐队的不同之处在于，他们把这种创作推向了新高度。明白吗？这不是一段感情，而是无数段感情。白金汉和尼克斯、米克·弗利特伍德离婚、约翰和克里斯汀·麦克维、米克·弗利特伍德与史蒂薇·尼克斯以及大概17个人的纠葛。

But the thing about Fleetwood Mac is that they take it to another level. Right? This is not one relationship. This is so many relationships. Buckingham Nicks, Mick Fleetwood getting divorced, John and Christine McVeigh, Mick Fleetwood having a relationship with Stevie Nicks and, like, 17 other people.

他们聚了又散，全都把这些经历写成歌、表演这些歌，并将其作为身份标识——当代艺人也是如此。比如贾斯汀·汀布莱克和布兰妮·斯皮尔斯用音乐袒露恋情，碧昂丝和Jay-Z在音乐里解决婚姻问题。

They're all getting together, all breaking up, and they're all writing songs and performing about those songs and making it their identity in a way that contemporary artists do too. Like Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears laying their relationship out in music. There's Beyonce and Jay z hashing out their marital issues in their music.

你最好打电话给那个头发很帅的瑞奇。

You better call Ricky with the good hair.

我一直在想——要是你受够了我呢？奥利维亚·罗德里戈和萨布丽娜·卡彭特详细记录她们与明星男友的私生活，供粉丝剖析，试图找出所有线索来窥探她们的真实生活。

I stew over. What if you over my shit? Olivia Rodrigo and Sabrina Carpenter detailing their inner lives with celebrity boyfriends for fans to pick apart and try to find all the clues to see what's really going on in their personal lives.

你现在大概和那个总让我怀疑的金发女孩在一起。也许你并非有意，也许‘blonde’只是为了押韵。

And you're probably with that blonde girl who always made me doubt. Maybe you didn't mean it. Maybe blowing was the only rhyme.

所以Fleetwood Mac乐队并非这种个人化创作方式的发明者，但他们可能将其中某个方面做到了极致。

So Fleetwood Mac, not the inventors of this approach of personal songwriting, but maybe they perfected a certain aspect of it.

他们确实做到了极致，将其提升到了全新高度。若想真正理解这一切的源头，你必须回溯到林赛·白金汉和史蒂薇·妮克丝加入Fleetwood Mac之前那张早已绝版的早期录音。他们1973年发行的专辑《Buckingham Nicks》当时未能上榜，但在能淘到老黑胶版本的乐迷中拥有崇高的地下地位。你在流媒体平台根本找不到这张唱片。

They perfected it. They took it to a whole new level. And if you really wanna understand where it all began, you have to go back to that long out of print early recording by Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks before they joined Fleetwood Mac. Their album, Buckingham Nicks, released in 1973, failed to chart in its time, but it has huge cult status amongst fans that can still find old vinyl imprints of it. You cannot find that recording on streaming services.

甚至连CD版本都遍寻不着。什么？嘿，别急——转机出现在Wow平台。就在几周前，音乐人Andrew Bird和Madison Cunningham以'Cunningham Bird'为名（暗喻Buckingham Nicks）展开了新企划。

You can't even find it on CD. What? Hey, no. That is until Wow. Just a few weeks ago, the musicians Andrew Bird and Madison Cunningham collaborated on a new project called Cunningham Bird, like Buckingham Mix.

这是对《Buckingham Nicks》专辑的逐曲重构，呈现了非凡的编曲与和声。四处张望吧，但你找不到我的身影。

It is a track by track interpretation of the Buckingham Mix album, and it features exceptional arrangements and harmonies. Look around, but you won't see me.

那只是我旧日模样的残影。

Just a picture of what I used to be.

全新视角展现了Buckingham与Nick早期音乐合作以及他们在加入Fleetwood Mac之前的创作互动。稍后休息时，您将听到Andrew Byrd和Madison Cunningham谈论那张传奇的《失落专辑》。您可能还在与我们及近期嘉宾好友Sam Sanders一起享受或吐槽那些最糟糕的歌词。但我们也在Sam的节目《The Sam Sanders Show》中向他请教了最新热议话题——从‘流媒体是否催生劣质音乐’到‘流行文化能否预测经济衰退’。同时，我们也欣赏他与Anne Helen Peterson等思想家，以及Jessica Williams、R.

Provides a whole fresh perspective on Buckingham and Nick's early musical partnership and their creative dynamic before the Fleetwood Mac days. After the break, you're gonna hear from Andrew Byrd and Madison Cunningham about that storied Lost album. You may still be enjoying or cringing along with us and our recent guest and friend, Sam Sanders, about the worst song lyrics. But we also turned to Sam on his show, The Sam Sanders Show, to catch up on the latest hot takes from does streaming make bad music, to whether or not pop culture can predict a recession. We also enjoy his personal conversations with thinkers like Anne Helen Peterson, and with culture makers like Jessica Williams and R.

变装皇后Bob的深度对话。欢迎在任意播客平台及YouTube上收听《The Sam Sanders Show》。

Bob the Drag Queen. So catch the Sam Sanders Show wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

谷歌新款Pixel智能手机已面世。无论你是否喜欢，AI已渗透其每个角落——其中部分功能确实挺酷。本周《The Vergecast》节目中，我们深度体验Pixel 10一周后，对其AI功能是否实用提出了诸多见解。此外，美国政府现已持有英特尔10%的股份。

Google's new Pixel smartphone is here. And like it or not, it's got AI shoved into every nook and cranny. And some of it is actually kind of cool. This week on the Vergecast, we spent a week with Pixel 10, and we have a lot of thoughts about whether its AI is actually useful. Also, the American government now has a 10% stake in Intel.

怎么回事？为什么？你会在所得税申报表上看到分红吗？另外，怪异相机正迎来高光时刻——我们将盘点过去五年令人意外的摄影趋势。

How? Why? Will you see dividends on your income tax returns? Plus, weird cameras are having a moment. We go through the last five years of surprising photography trends.

以上是本周《The Vergecast》的全部内容。

That's this week on the Vergecast.

网友们大家好！我是Marques Brownlee，人称MKBHD。今年最重磅的几款智能手机即将发布，包括前所未见的新款iPhone 17系列。在Waveform播客中，我与联合主持人Andrew Manganelli和David Amell每周汇总最热科技资讯，深入探讨我们期待的新品——偶尔也会吐槽令人失望的产品。每年这个时候我们都称之为智能手机季。如果你想了解苹果、三星、谷歌等品牌的最新动态，欢迎在Spotify、Apple Podcasts或任意播客平台收听Waveform节目。

What is up, people of the Internet? My name is Marques Brownlee, aka MKBHD, and some of the biggest smartphones of the year are about to launch, including the brand new iPhone seventeens around the corner with a model you've never seen before. So on the waveform podcast, myself and cohost Andrew Manganelli and David Amell gather the biggest tech news of each week and then discuss at length everything we're excited about and sometimes things we're not so excited about. So this time of year, we like to call smartphone season. So if you're interested in hearing all the latest releases from Apple and Samsung and Google and others, be sure to check out the Waveform podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

我们节目里见。

See you there.

在加入Fleetwood Mac之前，Lindsay Buckingham和Stevie Nicks曾是年轻的恋人与音乐搭档，在洛杉矶录制首张专辑《Buckingham Nicks》时艰难度日。这张被长期埋没的专辑直到2024年才由Andrew Bird和Madison Cunningham以《Cunningham Bird》为名重新演绎。Madison Cunningham是格莱美获奖音乐人，以精妙的指弹吉他技巧与充满诗意的复杂编曲著称。此次她与老友兼搭档Andrew Bird合作献声——后者是位全能乐器大师，以其创意小提琴演奏、口哨技巧和忧郁嗓音闻名。

Before joining Fleetwood Mac, Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks were young lovers and musical partners struggling to make ends meet in Los Angeles while recording their debut album, Buckingham Nicks. It's long been unavailable. That is until 2024 when Andrew Bird and Madison Cunningham revived this cult classic in an interpretation of songs that they're calling Cunningham Bird. Madison Cunningham is a Grammy award winning musician known for her sophisticated guitar finger picking and her intricate and lyrical compositions. And Cunningham sings alongside her longtime friend and collaborator Andrew Bird, a virtuosic multi instrumentalist known for his creative violin playing, whistling, and plaintive voice.

我认为他们对这张尘封录音的重新诠释，深刻揭示了Fleetwood Mac的影响力以及Buckingham Nicks传奇中那段复杂的创作伙伴关系。

I think their update to this long stashed away recording has a lot to tell us about the influence of Fleetwood Mac and the complex creative partnership in the Buckingham Nicks saga.

我是Madison Cunningham。

I'm Madison Cunningham.

我是Andrew Bird，此刻我们在洛杉矶我家后院。

I'm Andrew Bird, and we are in my backyard in Los Angeles.

我们刚发布了一张名为《Cunningham》的专辑。

And we just released an album called Cunningham.

Bird。

Bird.

你们共同录制了这张改编自《Buckingham Nicks》的专辑。原专辑像是预示Fleetwood Mac诞生的失落之作，能否聊聊这张唱片背后的故事？

You have recorded this album together, an adaptation of Buckingham Nicks. That album is sort of this, like, lost album that presages Fleetwood Mac. Could you share a little bit about the story of what that record is?

没错。它就像你在二手唱片店或车库拍卖会淘到的那种唱片——所有人都记得封面上他们半裸出镜，美得不真实还做了喷绘处理。这是Lindsay Buckingham和Stevie Nicks热恋时期制作的野心之作，包含多首歌曲，隐约预示了后来Fleetwood Mac的风格，但真正听过的人并不多。

Yeah. It's that record you find in in a garage sale or, like, a used record store, and everyone knows the cover of them topless on the on the cover and looking impossibly beautiful and airbrushed and all. And it was a very ambitious record that the two of them made when they were together, Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. It's got a lot of songs. It kind of hinted what's to come with Fleetwood Mac, but not many people know the the music.

这张专辑里的每一小节都在试图用某种有趣的录音室技巧或手法打动你，比如大量密集的鼓点填充、鼓点推进和切分音。你可以把这些歌曲的骨架抽离出来，就像我们说的，掀开Shagro地毯，看看下面藏着怎样的空间，找到那个房间——歌曲就在那里，它们一直都在。只是1973年的制作方式可能有点，你知道，过于用力了。我认同这种感觉，就像他们那时还年轻。

There's not a single measure on this album that's not trying to impress you with some interesting studio move or something, you know, with lots and lots of drum fills and drum pushes and and syncopations. And you can take the bones of all these songs and, like, strip them back. And as we say, pull up the Shagro carpeting and kinda see what kind of space there is and and and find the the room and the song is there songs are there. It was just the way the production was in '73 was was a little, you know, heavy handed perhaps. I identify with it in the sense of, like, they're young.

我记得二十多岁做专辑时，总想把所有有趣的东西塞进专辑的每一寸角落。

I remember when I was making albums in my twenties, I tried to throw every interesting thing I could into every square inch of the album.

这方面我也深有同感。我感觉自己最近才刚摆脱那种'每个和弦都要弹到'的阶段，开始追求让音乐听起来轻松自然。

I relate to that too in in a lot of ways. I feel like I'm I've just recently kind of grown out of the, like, oh, I don't want to play every chord, and I want music to kind of feel easy.

麦迪逊，这张专辑里有哪首歌让你特别感受到那种青春特质吗？

Madison, is there a song in this record for you which really captures that youthful quality?

有。最先抓住我注意力的是《Long Distance Winner》。

Yeah. The first song that really grabbed my attention was Long Distance Winner.

我跑下山坡。后跳一步。你是赢家。最持久的赢家。

I come running down the hill. Jump back. You're the winner. The longest of the winner.

实际上我觉得这首歌立刻听起来有点像你我可能会写的东西，就那首歌的前三个和弦而言。我是说，我们当时真的在尝试弄清楚，制作过程中要玩得多开。我们能把这个旋律改造到什么程度？能不能把它重新编排放在这里？最后我们找到了一个平衡点，既保留了我们喜欢的复杂性，又兼顾了展现情感核心所必需的简洁性。

And I actually felt like that was the song that sounded immediately a little bit most like something that you and I would have maybe written just in terms of, like, those first three chords of that song. I I mean, we were we we were we were honestly trying to figure out, like, how how playful to be while we were making it. Like, how far could we take this? Could we refurbish this melody and put it here? And, you know, like, it was, like, finally, like, got to a place where we've where we were, like, found the marriage between the complexity that we enjoy and the simplicity that is so important to, like, exposing the heart.

其中一首让我印象深刻的歌，充满了那种倾尽全力的青春野心，就是那首《无立足之地的歌》。副歌部分的切分音非常难唱，但你们却找到了新的演绎方式。你们是如何在改编这些歌曲时，既尊重人们对Fleetwood Mac和Buckingham与Nicks的怀旧之情，又赋予它们新鲜感的？

One of those songs that really stood out to me is having that sort of youthful ambition throwing everything you've got at it is their song without a leg to stand on. The chorus is just so syncopated and challenging to sing, and and yet you sort of found this new way into it. How did you go about wanting to adapt these songs, both honoring the nostalgia that people have for Fleetwood Mac and Buckingham and Nicks, and yet also make it fresh?

进录音棚前我比Madison更深入研究过这张专辑。那首《无立足之地》包含了我说的那些推进感，就像

I had studied the album more than Madison before we went into the studio. And that that leg to stand on has those those pushes I'm talking about, like

你也知道我不能放任

And you know that I can't let

去吧。砰。

go. Boom.

但你知道我无法放手。

But you know that I can't let go.

那种感觉。我一度无法释怀。就像，我就是不想放弃那种推力，因为它已经深深烙在我的骨子里。对。麦迪逊只是...

That kind of stuff. And I couldn't let go of that for a while. I, like, I just didn't wanna let go of that push because it just felt it was physically in my bones already. Yeah. Madison would just kind of

但你知道我无法放手。

But you know that I can't let go.

就是一直没做那个动作，直到有次排练时我突然想起来，就故意做了气你...

Just kind of kept not doing that push until I finally remember one time we're doing it, I just did it to spite you just

算是吧

kind of

那是我们在录音室唯一一次争吵，他他他偷偷用...

That's the one time we fought in the studio as he he he spied me with

呃呃

a a

当时很激烈。

It was rough.

确实激烈。但后来，对，那首是第一个成型的。我们当时就觉得，哇，这完全是另一个层次。特别是那首歌，感觉像是...我们终于挖掘出了藏在里面的那种甜美流行曲风。

It was rough. But then, yeah, that that was the first one that came together. We were like, oh, this is something else entirely. And this is and that song in particular felt like like maybe we unlocked the the sort of sweet tooth pop song that was in there.

那是什么感觉？我觉得'The Pushes'这首歌的编排让人始终感觉像是不断出现这些，呃，有点奇怪的节奏断层。但最终我们发现这首歌有种持续流动的质感——我特别钟爱这种作品，它们既能保持动态的起伏，又像永不停歇的轨道或游乐设施般不断推进。每次听这首歌，我总想象自己坐在马车后座，穿越草原不断前行。

What was that? I think what the Pushes did was it kept feeling like it would just be these, like, weird sort of, like, sort of, like, breaks in the flow. And I think what we ended up finding was this constant movement in that song, and I really love when songs do that, when they still, like, ebb and flow dynamically, but they never stop rolling, and you feel like you're you're on some sort of, like, a track or a ride or something. And that song, it feels like like every time I hear, I imagine, like, riding in the back of a carriage of horses, like, through the through the prairie, just continuing to move.

处理任何与Fleetwood Mac相关的素材，必然涉及他们复杂的情感关系。Buckingham和Nicks曾是少年恋人，他们共同创作这张专辑。那些著名的分手与恋情，都是乐队历史的重要部分。

Working on any material that is Fleetwood Mac related is necessarily in relationship to their complex relationships. Buckingham and Nicks were young teenage lovers. They make this album together. Famous breakups, love affairs. All of this is a big part of the band.

这些素材如何影响你们的合作与艺术伙伴关系？当你们演绎这些关于少年恋人的歌曲时——要知道这是历史背景下两个截然不同的人，而且你们常在翻唱中转换性别视角——你们是如何处理的？

How did, approaching this material affect your own collaboration and and your own artistic partnership? How do you go about approaching these songs about teenage lovers at, you know, at a different point in history between two very different people, where you're often flipping genders on these records?

说得好。你提到的'不同历史节点'确实关键——他们脱胎于六十年代，那时男人会称女友为'我的老姑娘'，到了七十年代又变成吉他之神与吉普赛女郎的意象。这些表达如今已不适用。我们考虑过全面转换性别视角，但发现行不通。

Yeah. And and you've you've said it well that a different point in history is a key key line because it's like they're coming out of the sixties where, you know, guys referred to their girlfriends as their old ladies and, you know, it's like there was like a and then the seventies, guitar god, McKismo and Gypsy woman, Gypsy lady. I was just like, that stuff doesn't really speak to us now, you know? And so the we thought about just flipping everything gender wise, but that didn't really stand up.

我们只能

We had to take it one

逐首歌处理。但《Lola My Love》确实适合转换视角，因为我们俩都无法原封不动地唱出那种歌词。

one tune at a time. But definitely Lola My Love was one that that made sense to flip, because neither of us could could quite stomach singing that as is.

没错，《Lola My Love》带着七十年代摇滚那种荷尔蒙躁动。而且

Yeah. Lola My Love is kind of horny 70 guys, blues, rock. Absolutely. And

我们基本上按顺序录制。临近专辑尾声时，《Frozen Love》这几首歌差点让我崩溃——谢天谢地它们排在最后，我们不断推迟录制因为不知如何下手。但最终成果令人惊喜。

We were it could we'd you know, we did things mostly in order. And as as we got towards the end of the album, both those tunes, I think, Frozen Love are, like, Pretty weird. It almost broke me. Yeah, both those both those songs We were just like thank god they're at the end like or we just we kept putting them off because we didn't know how to handle them Then again, both of them turned out like we're really happy with them.

其实它们是我在专辑里最爱的作品。或许正因为投入最多忐忑与努力才让它们焕发现代感——这很值得。Andrew，我好奇你如何与这些歌曲建立情感联结？就我而言，当时个人经历突然与某些歌词产生共鸣，录制中途我才真正开始珍视这些歌词。

They're some of my favorite songs on the record, actually, which I think there's something to be said about that. Like, there's the most, like, trepidation and the most, like, work that it took to to get them to a place that felt relevant, and I I think it paid off in some way. But, yeah, I mean, I I don't know. I'm actually curious, Andrew, how you ended up emotionally relating to the songs. I know for myself, I just there was a lot of, like, personal things I was going through that kinda started to reflect what some of the lyrics were saying, and and and previously before that, I hadn't really been attached to the lyrics at all.

比如合唱《Don't Let Me Down Again》时，你能把全部愤怒倾注在那句歌词里——这种演唱体验太棒了。

And kind of in the middle of recording, was, like, finding myself really resonating and becoming very attached to these songs. And just us singing them too, like, that one song, Don't Let Me Down Again, I love singing that one because it's just like you get to just put Yeah. All of your anger into into a a lyric like that.

宝贝，宝贝，别这样对我。他们总有一天会再成功的。

Baby, baby, don't treat me this way. They're gonna make it again someday.

你当时绝对在经历些什么。我更担心的是会不会被起诉。就像我...

You were definitely going through something. I was more just worried worried about getting sued. Like, I

你当时也在经历一些事情。

was You were going through something too.

我想是吧。我的意思是，我只是试着...试着放松接受它，但整个过程中我一直在想，我们为什么要做这个？到底...

I guess so. I mean, I was just trying to, like, just trying to relax into it and not and I was the whole time, I was, like, wondering why are we doing this? What

这很棘手，因为我们不能改写任何歌词，所以我们的操作空间非常有限。这些歌词原本的样子至关重要。

And it's so tricky because we couldn't rewrite any lyrics, so our moves were pretty few. They were really important as to what they were gonna be.

是啊。这显然不是Fleetwood Mac认可的项目。也没必要是。不，我相信你可以通过机械许可翻录任何专辑的。

Yeah. This is obviously not a Fleetwood Mac approved project. It doesn't need to be. No. You can get mechanical licenses to record covers of any album, I believe.

但问题是...有没有担心过，比如通过修改歌词改变了几处代词后，这就成了另一个作品？Fleetwood Mac会不会对这个项目不满意？

So what was but there were was there concern of, like, there's a few changes of pronouns by changing lyrics. It's like its own thing. And that Fleetwood Mac would, like, not be happy with this project?

我们只是不太明白为什么它会绝版。

We just didn't quite know why it was out of print.

没错。这让我们很怀疑——为什么一张可能引起巨大关注的重要唱片，至少在当时无法听到，现在回顾起来也无法在线播放。

Yeah. It made us made us suspicious as to why you couldn't like, a major record that could get a lot of attention, at least not at the moment, but in retrospect, why you can't hear it, you can't stream it.

你们在这个过程中学到了什么？

What'd you learn in the process?

完全没有。不。

Absolutely nothing. No.

我是说，我了解到一些非常模糊的法律措辞让我有点紧张。仅此而已。但一切都很好，目前为止一切顺利。

I mean, I I learned that there's some very vague legal language that made me a little nervous. That's all. But it all it's all good. It's all good. So far so so far so good.

我的意思是，你可以未经批准报道任何内容。只是听说，过去有些人得到Stevie或Lindsey的祝福并不总是顺利。就这样。

I mean, you are allowed to cover whatever you want without getting the approval. I just heard anecdotally that, getting the blessing of Stevie or Lindsey has not always gone so well in the past for some people. That's all.

是的，这是一组翻唱，但在这张唱片上是一种诠释。你们完全按照自己的风格重塑了它们。其中一个突出的特点是，作为音乐人，你们的音色几乎与Fleetwood Mac和Buckingham Nicks截然相反。比如吉他音色，Lindsey Buckingham的吉他通常三重叠加，明亮，占据整个混音。

Yes, it's a group of covers, but this is an interpretation on this record. You have completely made it in your own image. And one of the things that really stands out is that your sound palette as musicians almost leans in the exact opposite direction as Fleetwood Mac and Buckingham Nicks. That the guitar sound, for example. Lindsay Buckingham's guitars are often triple tracked, bright, taking over the entire mix.

而Madison，你的吉他深沉、低沉、有韧性，且略显抽离。有些非常优美的小提琴部分，我认为为这张唱片注入了生命力。比如《Crying in the Night》，原版是一首略带责备意味的歌。

And Madison, your guitar is deep and low and plucky and a little bit more removed. There's some really lovely violin parts that I think bring this record to life. For example, on Crying in the Night, which is a sort of blame y song as originally recorded.

嗯。我

Mhmm. I

认为他真的改变了这首歌的感觉，让它更像一首哀歌。

think he really sort of changed the feeling of it and make it feel more like a lament.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，它

You know, it

有点像在说，有个女孩在镇上晃悠，她会把你卷进来，但你知道，她还会去追其他男孩，然后伤透你的心。

kinda saying, there's this girl, she's around town, she's gonna loop you in, but, you know, she's gonna go and chase some other guys, and she's gonna break your heart.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且我觉得你更倾向于表现心碎的感觉，尤其是那种深夜哭泣的情绪。你的小提琴拉出这些高音，真的像是在用音符描绘歌词。

And I think I think you lean into the broken heart more, especially with this feeling of crying in the night. Your your violin soars these high notes that really sort of text paints the the lyric.

好的，很高兴听你这么说。

Okay. That's good to hear.

太酷了。

That's sick.

它它它走向了我们称之为‘高端’的方向，我担心它偏离了这首歌的本质——一首警告这个男人小心镇上轻浮女子的歌。

It it it went in this sort of what we call posh we're calling it posh direction with the kind of it's I was worried that it had it strayed from what the song really was, which is a song warning this guy about the town Floozy. Like,

什么

what

你觉得这种警告是不是应该来自更柔软的地方？而不是直接说‘别搞砸了’。虽然我不知道，可能用高端的方式表达会更有效。

Do you feel like that warning, like, I would imagine, like, has to come from like a softer place, you know, than like Right. Don't you fuck it. Oh, I mean, I don't know. It's probably more pow effective if it comes from a posh place.

对。这是我觉得这张专辑变化很大的一个方面。我有幸通过你们俩第一次接触《Buckingham Nicks》。今年在纽波特民谣节上看了你们现场完整表演这张专辑，真是令人陶醉。

Right. This is one of the ways that I feel like the record has changed a lot. And I actually have the pleasure of having experienced, Buckingham Nicks first through the two of you. I saw you perform the album live in full at Newport Folk this year. It was a total delight.

我之前从没听过这些歌。后来我在YouTube上找到了原版音频，反复对比听了原版和你们的版本——我更喜欢更新后的版本。部分原因是新版让我们感受到更多情感联系。原版《Buckingham Nicks》在很多方面确实是以Buckingham为主导的。

I had never heard the songs. And then I eventually went and found a YouTube stream, and I listened to the original, and I have gone back and listened to theirs and yours back and forth and back and forth. I I I prefer the updated version. But part of the reason why is I think that we get so much more relationship. I think in the framing of Buckingham Nicks, it really does lead with Buckingham in so many ways.

在很多唱片里，Nicks确实有点像是个附属品。而在这里，你们不仅调换了名字顺序——好像你们的名字注定要创造这样一张专辑——还颠覆了标题的性别动态。整张专辑里你们真正平分秋色，这感觉像是非常自然的合作。

I think on a lot of the records, Nicks does feel a little bit like a and Nicks. Yeah. And here, this not only have you switched it because it seems like your names were just destined to create this record kind of an, but it flips the gender dynamic in the title. And you really split duties throughout the entire thing. This feels like a really natural collaboration.

所以我想回到一个我们可能无意中回避的问题，这张关于关系的专辑，这段非常著名的关系，它是如何改变了你们的创作合作方式的？

And so I wanna go back to a question that we probably unintentionally evaded, which is how has it altered, you know, this this this album about relationships, this very famous relationship. How has it changed your creative collaboration?

制作这张专辑让我深刻意识到，我如此热爱音乐的原因恰恰在于它的纯粹。我开始摆脱所有那些‘天啊，我们在这里弹五个和弦怎么样’的狂热念头。现在的我，聆听音乐的方式和从中寻求的东西，与两年前相比已截然不同。

Working on this record reminded me so much of like, oh, what I do love so much about music though is is simplicity. Like and really getting over all of my, like, you know, crushes of like, oh my god. Like, what about we play five chords here. What you know, it's like, I'm really getting to a place where I just don't I've I've listened to music so differently and what I want from it is so different than what it

没错。

Right.

甚至就在两年前。

Was even, like, two years ago.

但在制作这张专辑时，我也发现麦迪逊嗓音中出现了前所未有的特质，比如在《Crystal》这首歌里。

But I also learned I in making this record, I heard things come out in Madison's voice that I hadn't heard before, like, on Crystal.

你总是用第一直觉来包装自己吗？

Do you always dress your first initial feeling.

像是一种极其深沉的悲伤。

Like a really deep, deep sadness.

特殊的知识孕育真实的果实

Special knowledge holds true bears

你声音里那种不同的音调。这特别触动人心，尤其是《Crystal》这首歌完美体现了这点。在你之前的专辑里我还没听到过这种表达，真的让人惊叹——这完全是另一个境界。希望以后不会再有人把你和琼尼·米切尔相提并论了。

Like a different tone in in your voice. And it was really emotional, especially I think Crystal is the one that kind of embodies it. Like, haven't heard that yet from on on your albums yet. And it's it was really like, woah, that's that's something else. No one's gonna be comparing you to Joni Mitchell anymore, hopefully.

我

I

希望不是。

hope not.

最后一个问题。Fleetwood Mac经久不衰的魅力是什么？

Final question for you all. What is the enduring appeal of Fleetwood Mac?

我是说，大部分作品都拥有绝妙的旋律创作。但你知道，这张专辑特别有趣，因为它完整呈现了Stevie和Lindsay之间那种鲜明的动态关系——在我们制作过程中愈发清晰。Lindsay就像在说'我要征服世界，你想跟来就得全力以赴'。

I mean, with most stuff, I mean, great melodic songwriting. But, you know, this this album also is very interesting because it's all there. The whole dynamic between Stevie and Lindsay is is became very clear as we're working on it. Yeah. And Lindsay's like, I'm gonna go conquer the world, and you can you can come along if you like, but you're gonna have to, like, really step it up.

而她的歌却在唱'你只爱最高的树'，这像场对话，是恋人间的争执。

Okay? And her songs are like, and you love only the tallest trees. It's like a conversation. It's an argument between two lovers. It's like Yeah.

你就是在迷恋那些阳刚象征。

You you just you just appreciate like big phallic things.

懂吗？

You know?

所以她试图将他拉回凡人尺度，却又用大量水和水晶的意象。两者共同构成了完整的世界观。

And and so she's like trying to cut him down to to a human size. And then but then she's talking about a lot of water and crystals. And together, they make up, like, the full range of of how you can live in this world.

说得好。

That's well said.

Asin，你认为呢？Fleetwood Mac为何能持续吸引新一代听众？

Asin, how about for you? What is the enduring appeal of Fleetwood Mac? Why are they having such a renaissance and just keep on igniting new generations?

就像你说的，他们彼此制衡。这种对立永远是强大力量——虽然乐队有多元成分，但Stevie和Lindsay作为核心，特别是Stevie那令人难忘的嗓音。

It seems like they are, like you said, like they're a counterweight to each other. And I think that is always a powerful force. It's like two things that and obviously, in Fleetwood Mac was many things. But I think, obviously, Stevie and and Lindsay kind of being, like, at the at the forefront. I think Stevie is also just, like, an unforgettable voice.

就像，没人能像她那样唱歌。而且你知道，真的没人能做到...他们的一些歌，比如我前几天刚听到《Dreams》，我还开玩笑说‘哦，又是《Dreams》’。但当歌曲播放时，我在想——这首只用两个和弦的歌居然不无聊，还有起伏和动态感。我觉得他们真的发现了一种成为经典的真谛，不是所有人都能做到这点。这就是为什么他们至今仍活跃在我们的流行文化中，保持着影响力。

Like, nobody sounds like her. And no, you know, nobody can really and and and some of their songs, like, I I just heard Dreams the other night, I jokingly said, oh, not Dreams Again. But as the song played, I I talk about a two chord song that isn't boring and, like, still has arc and dynamic. And I think they really found something that is is like they they found what it means to be classic, and not everybody does that. I think that's why they've there's there's still just, like, in our in our pop culture and in our, like, you know, in our relevance.

我的观点是：他们真正参透了如何保持永恒魅力的奥秘。是的。

My headline is that they they they figured out what it actually means to remain timeless. Yeah.

会有包含《Dreams》和《Go Your Own Way》的特别版吗？

Will we get a bonus edition with Dreams and Go Your Own Way?

不会。我觉得永远不会有。不过如果是圣诞版本的话可以，比如加些铃铛声什么的。

No. I don't think you'll ever be. No. And that but if it's a Christmas version, yes. Like with Slave Bells or something.

当然。

Sure.

这次合作太棒了。我很少会偏爱翻唱版本，但这次真的很特别。恭喜你们，这张专辑令人愉悦。

It's a really cool collaboration. I don't think I know another album where I prefer the interpretation, but this is something really special. Congratulations on it. It's really delightful.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢你这么说。

Thanks for saying that.

《Switched on Pop》由Brianna Cruz制作，Brandon McFarlane负责音频工程，Art Chung剪辑，Iris Gottlieb绘制插画，属于Vox Media播客网络旗下节目，由《纽约杂志》旗下Vulture出品。订阅请前往nymag.com/pod。

Switched on Pop is produced by Brianna Cruz, engineered by Brandon McFarlane, edited by Art Chung, illustrations by Iris Gottlieb, a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network and a production of Vulture, which is part of New York Magazine. Subscribe at nymag.com/pod.

在社交媒体上关注我们，账号是switched on pop。今天我们只深入讨论了两首Fleetwood Mac的歌。所以我们想听听，在他们作品目录中还有哪些重要歌曲能帮助我们理解这支乐队的标志性声音。你知道该怎么做，在评论区大声说出来吧。

Find us on social media at switched on pop. We only got to talk really in-depth about two Fleetwood Mac songs today. So we wanna hear about, like, what are the other important songs in their catalog that help us understand the iconic sound of this band. So you know what to do. Sound off in the comments.

下周我们将带来一个特别限定系列《聆听麦当娜》，超级期待！这个系列由优秀制作人Rhianna Cruz操刀，将于周一、周三和周五更新。

We're gonna be back next week with a special limited series called Listening to Madonna. So excited. It's brought to us by a great producer, Rhianna Cruz. It's gonna run Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

周一三五，宝贝。

MWF, baby.

正值感恩节那周，《聆听麦当娜》会超级精彩。我们到时候见，在此之前，

It's the week of Thanksgiving. Listening to Madonna is gonna be such a blast. We'll see you there. And until then,

感谢收听。

thanks listening.