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本集《谈艺》由国家美术馆展览《暗影中的赖特·德比》赞助播出。
This episode of talk art is brought to you by the National Gallery exhibition Rite of Derby from the Shadows.
没错。
That's right.
你可以发现
You can discover
约瑟夫·赖特·德比，这位将黑暗转化为璀璨烛光绘画的标志性英国艺术家。
Joseph Rite of Derby, the iconic British artist who transformed darkness into dazzling candlelit paintings.
《暗影中的赖特·德比》是首个专门展示这位英国艺术家烛光绘画的重要展览。
Rite of Derby from the Shadows is the first major exhibition dedicated to the British artist's candlelit paintings.
展览包含20多件作品，包括其他绘画、蚀刻版画、纸上作品和实物，探讨了赖特·德比的艺术实践，以及这些作品创作时的科学与艺术发展历史背景。
With over 20 works, including other paintings, mezzotints, works on paper, and objects, the exhibition explores both Rite of Derby's artistic practice and the historic context of scientific and artistic development in which they were made.
体验戏剧性的科学实验、令人惊叹的瞬间，以及充满情感的发光场景。
Experience dramatic science experiments, moments of wonder, and glowing scenes full of emotion.
发掘他画作和版画中出现的真实物品，这些物品曾让他的名声传遍乔治亚时代的英国乃至更远地区。
Uncover real life objects featured in his paintings and prints that carried his fame across Georgian Britain and beyond.
走进阴影，感受他烛光世界的魔力。
Enter the shadows and feel the magic of his candlelit world.
立即在 nationalgallery.org.uk 预订您的门票。
Book your tickets today at the nationalgallery.org.uk.
你好。
Hello.
早上好、晚上好、下午好，无论你身在何处。
Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you are.
这是拉塞尔·托弗里，
This is Russell Tovey and
罗伯特·迪曼特。
Robert Diament.
我们在这里录制我们的第一个播客，名为 R&R on Art。
And we're here doing our first podcast called r and r on art.
我个人觉得它应该叫 R&R Talk Art。
I think it should be called r and r talk art, personally.
我本来想叫它‘艺术 smack’，但罗布担心会有毒品的联想，所以我们放弃了这个名称。
I wanted to call it art smack, but Rob was worried about the drug connotations, so we're restricting ourselves with that one.
但我们今天在这里，是因为我们最近刚一起做了一个关于收藏当代艺术的播客，效果非常好。
But we are here because we did a podcast before together recently about collecting contemporary art, and it went really well.
我们玩得很开心，默契很好，也收到了不少积极反馈。这本来就是我们私下经常聊得热火朝天的话题，所以作为朋友、死党，我们觉得可以把这些分享出去，看看别人怎么想，也传递我们的热情。
And we had a good time, we a good rapport, and we had some good feedback, and it's something that we've geeked off about many times on our own, and we thought, as buddies, as best mates, we could probably, you know, put it out there and see what other people think and spread our enthusiasm.
这本质上是我们友谊的庆祝，而我们的友谊正是从艺术开始的。
And this is basically a celebration of our friendship, which which began through art.
没错。
Correct.
这个月，你和很多艺术家待在一起，我也是。
And you, this month, have been hanging out with a lot of artists, as have I.
是的。
Mhmm.
你演出结束后见了谁？
And who did you see after your play?
因为我们来看你的演出，我其实带了我妈妈，对吧？
Because we came to see your play I brought my mum, actually, didn't I?
你带了。
You did.
见到了你妈妈。
Saw your mother.
那是演出最大的亮点。
That was that was the big highlight of performance.
她是最棒的艺术家。
She's the best artist.
是的。
Yeah.
她是世界上最好的艺术家。
It's the best artist of world.
不。
No.
那么，我们来聊聊自己吧？
Well, should we just talk about ourselves a bit?
因为可能有些人没听过第一个。
Because people might not have heard the first one.
是的。
Yeah.
有道理。
Point.
所以我们相遇了，嗯，我是个演员，拉塞尔·托维。
So we met well, I'm an actor, Russell Tovey.
当我遇到罗布时，罗布当时是个歌手、表演者和作家，隶属于一支叫Tempo Shark的乐队。
And when I met Rob, Rob was a singer, performer, writer at that time with a band called Tempo Shark.
我们是在什么时候相遇的？
And we met what was it?
大概是十年前吧？
Ten years ago now?
是的。
Yeah.
刚过十年。
Just over ten years ago.
我们记得是在七月认识的。
We think we met, like, July.
另一个
Another
月。
month.
是的。
Yeah.
临时决定的。
On the fly.
我们在爱丁堡时，特蕾西·埃米恩正有一个大型
And we were in Edinburgh for Tracy Emmyn had a big
她作品的二十年回顾展。
Twenty years of her work retrospective.
爱丁堡的回顾展。
Retrospective at the Edinburgh
国家美术馆。
National Galleries.
没错。
Correct.
当时，我正在收集痕迹图像素描，而且
And I, at the time, was collecting trace image drawings, and
我也是。
As was I.
罗布也是，哦，我们的茶要来了。
As was Rob, and we oh, we've got tea coming in.
你可以播放茶水的声音。
You can have tea noises.
我们都选了加蜂蜜的绿茶。
We've both gone for green tea with honey in.
喝着茶还发出声音，有点像Lady Gaga，对吧？
It's a bit Lady Gaga having tea noises, isn't it?
她总是会说几句，哦，她？
She always has a couple Oh, she?
是的。
Yeah.
那我们来吧
Well, let's
我真的很开心。
I'm really happy.
是的。
Yeah.
你能听到吗？
Can you hear it?
如果她像Lady Gaga，那我就像是
If it's like Lady Gaga, I'm like,
认真的。
for real.
我昨晚看了她的新电影。
I saw her new film last night.
是吗？
Yeah?
是的。
Yeah.
她其实表现得非常好。
She was great, actually.
很好。
Good.
不过，我们还是别谈这个了。
Well, let's not talk about that, though.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们在那个回顾展上相遇了，因为我们对特蕾西·M的绘画标题有共同兴趣，你有一些画作，我有一些画作，然后它
So and we met there at this at the retrospective, and we bonded over Tracy M in drawing titles, and you had certain drawings, I had certain drawings, and then It
听起来挺荒谬的，
sounds quite ridiculous,
是啊，确实有点荒谬。
isn't It is kind of ridiculous.
但我们
But we
我们是书呆子。
we were geeks.
是书呆子。
Were geeks.
我们当时对各种事情着迷得不得了。
We were geeking off about things.
这种独特的联结是我从未预料到的，我没想到会遇到像你这样的人，而你可能也从未想过会遇到一个和你年龄相仿、如此
It's it was such a unique bonding that I never expected to meet anyone like that, and you probably never expected to meet anyone your age who was as
热情的。
Enthusiastic.
是的。
Yeah.
充满激情的。
Passionate.
对。
Yeah.
我们还能用哪些其他好词来形容自己呢？
What other great words can we use to describe ourselves?
极客。
Geeks.
极客。
Geeks.
关于，你知道的，艺术。
About, you know, art.
实际上，我正戴着
Actually, I'm wearing
一条现在戴着的项链，是个机器人。
a necklace right now, which is a robot.
我的意思是，你很难再找到比这更极客的了。
I mean, you can't really get much geeky.
没错。
No.
那是，是的。
That's yeah.
非常极客。
Very geeky.
我们别谈这个了。
Let's not talk about that.
不。
No.
我喜欢。
I love it.
太棒了。
It's great.
所以我们就是这样认识的，然后我继续收藏，你也继续收藏，但后来你转而更多地成为了一名经销商。
So that's how we met, and then I continued collecting, you continued collecting, but then you segued into becoming more of a dealer.
是的。
Yeah.
不过，我并不真的把自己称为经销商。
I don't really describe myself as a dealer, though.
我更把自己看作是画廊主。
See myself as a gallerist.
好的。
Okay.
因为‘经销商’听起来有点像是只是
Because dealer just sounds a bit like a sort of just
像艺术推销。
Like art smack.
电影。
Movie.
没错。
Exactly.
经销商听起来就像艺术推销，而且听起来好像你只是在推销某种商品似的。
Dealer a d dealer sounds like art smack, and it sounds bit like you're just pushing sort of units or something.
这并不是我真正热衷的。
It's not really what I'm into.
对。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
那你怎么称呼它？
What do you call it?
在美国，他们称之为交易。
They in America, they call it transactions.
我记得有一次在艺术博览会上，一位画廊主问我：你做了多少笔交易？
I remember one one gallerist once said to me at Art Fair, how many transactions have you done?
我当时说：抱歉？
And I was like, sorry?
这到底是什么意思？
Like, what the hell does that mean?
就像用
Like, doing with the
信用卡进行交易。
credit card.
没错。
Exactly.
我的意思是，有多少笔交易？这让我觉得有点不对劲。
It's like, how many I was like, that's a bit not my vibe.
没错。
Right.
我更在意的是艺术本身，而不是交易。
I care more about the art than actual.
这很好。
That's good.
但现在你是画廊的人了，你工作的画廊是哪个？
But you are a galleries now, and the gallery you work for is?
卡尔·弗里德曼画廊和Counter Editions，后者是一家领先的版画业务公司。
Carl Friedman Gallery and Counter Editions, which is a leading kind of print business.
实际上，我们这周刚完成了一次新品发布。
And actually, we've just done a launch this week.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，罗布，这周他在索霍之家做了一场演讲，内容是关于
So Rob, this week, has been having he did a talk at Soho House with
我采访了卢克·托伊曼斯，他几乎是世界上最有名的画家之一。
I interviewed Luke Toymans, who's pretty much one of the world's most famous painters.
嗯。
Mhmm.
还活着吗？
Living?
活着的画家，是的。
Living painters, yeah.
从我大概18岁左右开始，他就一直是我很大的灵感来源。
And he has been a big inspiration to me since I was probably 18 or something.
我非常欣赏他的作品，能和他交谈真的是一种莫大的荣幸。
I love his work, and it was just such a privilege to be able to talk with him.
我通过我们合作的一位叫Nell Arts的艺术家，某种程度上把他当朋友看待。
I kind of know him as a friend through an artist we work with called Nell Arts.
哦，他们很友好。
Oh, they're friendly.
是的，他非常支持安特卫普的本地艺术圈，这种支持跨越了代际，因为他比她年长很多，但那里不同世代的艺术家们都会互相交往，安特卫普的氛围真的很包容。
Yeah, he's very supportive of the local art scene in Antwerp, and it's kind of crossed generations, because he's much older than she is, but all different generations there of artists hang out with each other, and it's really an inclusive kind of environment in Antwerp.
我和他见过好几次面，他其实特别幽默，但当他变成艺术家卢克·蒂蒙斯时，那种感觉就像真正见到了他，是的。
And I'd hung out with him quite a few times, and he's a real laugh actually, and then he becomes Luke Timmons, the artist in a way, and it was a bit- it was like meeting him Yeah.
实际上，在采访过程中，他表现得完全像另一个人，非常强大而专注，我越采访越紧张，因为
As the Actually, during the interview, he was like someone completely different in a way, like really strong and intense, and I actually got more and more nervous as I was doing the interview because
发生了什么？
What going through?
是
Is
就像这样，是的。
it like Yeah.
还好。
Was fine.
你知道吗，我特别喜欢在公众场合讲话。
Do you know, I I love talking in public.
这对我来说从来不是问题。
It's not ever been a problem for me.
但当我问第二个问题时，他只是盯着我，我心里想：天哪。
But as I was asking the second question, he sort of just stared at me, and I was like, oh, god.
如果我说错了什么，你知道的，然后他直接从我手里拿走了话筒。
If I say the wrong thing, you know, and then he sort of took the mic from me out
你实际采访他时，他到底是什么样子？
of who he was when you were actually interviewing him?
是的。
Yeah.
就是。
It's just
你之前把他当普通人一样看待了吗？
You took him for granted before, like, as a person?
有点吧。
Kinda.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
然后突然间，天哪。
And it was just suddenly, oh, shit.
这人可不得了。
This guy is major.
确实如此。
Big time.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
Big time.
但进行得很顺利。
But it went well.
进行得非常好。
It went really well.
而且《Count Traditions》已经发布了。
And Count Traditions is released.
是的。
Yeah.
我们和他合作推出了一款新的珐琅三联画，灵感源自比利时一家博物馆收藏的1991年三联画。
We launched a new enamel triptych with him, which is based on a 1991 triptych that's in a museum in Belgium.
那是他创作的三幅画，他一直希望把它们做成珐琅作品。
It was a painting three paintings that he made, and he always wanted to have it on enamel.
哦，世界上本来就存在这些画作吗？
Oh, there are paintings that exist in the world anyway?
他并不是专门为‘No’创作的。
He didn't make exclusively for the No.
有耐心。
Patient.
好的。
Okay.
这是一个已存在的三联画。
It's an existing triptych.
好的。
Okay.
他一直梦想着让作品走出室内，这是他的艺术首次出现在户外。
And then he always dreamt of having it outside, and it's the first time his art's ever been outside.
它也部分基于早期广告的理念，那些广告常使用他小时候随处可见的搪瓷面板。
And it's based a bit on this idea of early advertising, which used to be on enamel panels that he used to see everywhere.
我觉得甚至在餐馆里，他以前也常看到，比如，
I think even in, like, restaurants, he used to see, like,
比如在法国。
like Like in France.
但非常欧洲风格，没错。
But very European like Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
然后他对德国的宣传图像和印刷技术感兴趣，我认为。
And then he was interested in German, I think, propaganda images and print techniques and
等等。
So hang on.
这些可以安装在浴室里，比如，而且是安全的吗？
These can be installed in a bathroom, say, and be safe?
可以的。
They can be.
是的。
Yeah.
为什么？
Why?
你现在在考虑把它装在浴室里吗？
You're now thinking of getting it for your bathroom?
我都不知道这是个选项。
Wouldn't didn't know that was an option.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
所以基本上，他谈到了英式乡村花园，因为我们是一家英国公司，他有个想法，就是英国人热爱自己的花园。
So basically, he was talking about English country gardens because we're an English company, and he had this idea of English people loving their gardens.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我觉得那是一种更轻松的视角。
That I think that was more of a a light kind of perspective on it.
是的。
Yeah.
但他还喜欢把作品放在桥下，你几乎就像是在桥下穿行时偶然发现它一样。
But he was also into this idea of putting it under a bridge, and you kind of almost, like, go under a bridge and discover it under a bridge.
所以他只是喜欢它处于户外的想法。
So he just likes the idea of it being outdoors.
我的
My
幸运的是，我们在索霍之家希腊街的露台上布置了它，当时开始下雨了，但观众们都遮蔽得很好。
And luckily, we did it on the terrace at Soho House Greek Street, and it started to rain, but we were all covered, the audience.
但作品确实被淋到了，我觉得他非常兴奋。
But the work actually got rained on, and I think he was really thrilled.
哦，太好了。
Oh, great.
因为当时我们是把它安装在一面砖墙上。
Because it was on we installed it on a brick wall.
所以，是的。
So, yeah.
再完美不过的例子了。
He Perfect example.
没错。
Exactly.
我很高兴我们为他实现了这一点。
So I'm happy that we realized that for him.
太好了。
Great.
我也很高兴。
I'm happy as well.
谢谢你，拉uss。
Thanks, Russ.
没关系，罗布。
So that's alright, Rob.
我们刚结束弗里兹艺术周。
So we have just bounced out of Frieze Art Week.
我们有两种不同的体验，因为你过去八年一直以交易商、画廊主的身份参与弗里兹艺术展。
We had two different experiences, because you were experiencing Frieze, you have done for the past Eight years.
八年作为交易商、画廊主，隶属于卡尔·弗里德曼画廊。
Eight years as a transactionist, as a dealer, as a gallerist with Carl Friedman Gallery.
而我过去八年则是以收藏家的身份体验弗里兹艺术展。
And I've been experiencing it this past eight years as a collector.
所以我们觉得，现在可能是聊聊我们对弗里兹艺术展体验的好时机。
So we went into it, so we thought this is probably a good time to talk about our experiences of Frieze.
但我需要强调的是，过去七年，你的卡尔·弗里德曼展位一直挂着‘卡尔·弗里德曼画廊伦敦’的旗帜，而今年是第一次使用‘卡尔·弗里德曼画廊马盖特’。
But I need to highlight that for the past seven years, your Carl Friedman booth has had Carl Friedman Gallery London on the flag that advertises it, and then this was the first year that we had Carl Friedman Gallery Margate
引起了很大的反响。
on a lot of excitement.
实际上，比我还预期的还要热烈。
Actually, more excitement than I than I expected.
我没想到大家会这么惊讶，是的。
I didn't realize everyone was gonna be freaked out Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
以一种好的方式。
In a good way
真的非常兴奋。
Really excited.
关于马盖特。
About Margate.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
而且，特蕾西·艾明当时也在场，她非常高兴，因为她来自马盖特。
And, obviously, Tracey Emin was there, and she was very happy because she's from Margate.
没错。
Yeah.
而且每次见到她都很好。
And it's always good to see her.
但来自全球各地收藏家的反响真的非常惊人。
But it was really amazing, the response we had from collectors all over the world.
甚至有来自香港、美国和不同国家的人知道马盖特，他们都非常兴奋。
So I even had people from Hong Kong and America and different countries who knew about Margate, and they were totally thrilled.
因为你搬到了伦敦，因为伦敦的画廊关闭了。
Because you're moved to London because the London Gallery is closed.
你目前正享受一段短暂的休息。
You've been having a bit of a respite at the moment.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
重建
Rebuild
我们目前正在马盖特翻修一栋巨大的建筑。
We're currently renovating this giant building in Margate.
这栋建筑大约有一万平方英尺，我们将设有三个画廊，还有一个整层用于印刷业务——这是我们首次在现场制作印刷品，此外还有一间艺术家公寓，这基本上是一种全新的生活方式。
It's like about 10,000 square foot, and we're gonna have three galleries and a whole floor as well for the print business, where we're actually gonna be making prints on-site for the first time, and there's an artist apartment, and it's a whole new way of living, basically.
但这个印刷部分，会吸引路过的人吗？
But and and the print bit, is that gonna be like passing trade?
你现在可以亲自去看印刷品了吗？
You can go and see prints now in the flesh?
因为通常在肯特传统中，它一直是个线上业务。
Because normally at Kent traditions, it's it was it's been an online
是的。
Yeah.
你可以来参观，亲眼看到印刷品是如何制作出来的，只要艺术
You will be able to come and visit and actually see the prints being made as long as the art
但不会有一个专门的区域让你进去体验
But there won't be like an area where you can go in and go
我们会有一个小商店。
We'll have a small shop.
好的。
Okay.
太棒了。
Cool.
但我也不确定我们会不会主要做线上业务。
But I'm not sure it's not gonna be like a we'll be an online business.
明白了。
Got it.
但人们更容易过来参观和看看东西。
But it will be much easier for people to come by and look at things.
这将会非常棒。
It's gonna be amazing.
但我真的很兴奋，因为人们如此愿意接受这种体验式的概念，而不是仅仅去肖迪奇，而是真正来到这里，住上一晚，或者只是来度过一整天。
But I was just really excited that people are so open to this idea of having an experience, and rather than just going to Shoreditch, you actually come somewhere and spend a night, or just come for the day.
从伦敦过去非常方便。
It's quite easy to get to from London.
这将会成为一个目的地，对吧？
Well, is gonna be a destination, isn't it?
是的，没错。
It is, yeah.
你可以把这一点和其他所有事情联系起来。
You can just link that in with everything else.
没错。
Exactly.
明年，特纳奖将来到这里，我认为会在九月，在特纳当代美术馆举办，就在弗里兹艺术展之前，这也将是一件大事。
And next year, the Turner Prize is coming there, so it'll be at the Turner Contemporary Museum, I think in September, before Frieze, which is gonna be a big deal as well.
到时候我们会开业，特蕾西·埃蒙斯会把她的工作室搬过来，因为她来参观了我们的建筑，然后决定买下紧挨着我们旁边的房子，所以我们将成为邻居。
So we'll be open then, Tracy Emmons moving her studio there, because she came down, saw our building, and then decided to buy the building adjoining to ours and next door, so we're gonna be neighbors.
还有尼古拉斯·柯克伍德，我这周也见到了他，我去过他的工作室，看了他那些令人惊叹的鞋子，我待会儿跟你讲讲
And then Nicholas Kirkwood, who I've also seen this week, I went to his studio and saw his amazing shoes, I'll tell you about
所以他是一位鞋履设计师？
So he's a shoe designer?
是的。
Yeah.
他是一位非常出色的鞋履设计师。
He's just an incredible shoe designer.
哇。
Wow.
他买下了特蕾西隔壁的建筑，打算在那里成立一个数字艺术和新媒体的基金会
And he's bought the building next to Tracy, and he's gonna have a foundation for digital art and new media
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
这和我们做的事情非常不同。
Which is very different to what we're doing.
所以这真是一个绝佳的组合。
So it's a really great combination.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们来谈谈弗里兹艺术展吧。
Let's talk about Frieze.
作为一位经销商——抱歉，作为画廊主，今年你对2018年在伦敦摄政公园举办的弗里兹艺术博览会有什么感受？
How, as a dealer not a dealer, sorry, a gallerist this year, how did you find Frieze Art Fair twenty eighteen Regent's Park, London?
我非常喜欢。
I loved it.
那是我们有史以来最成功的一年。
It was the best year we'd ever had.
来自世界各地的人非常多，我觉得这可能是我经历过的最具国际化的弗里兹艺术展。
There were so many people from all over the world, and it was just I felt like it was probably the most international Frieze I'd I'd experienced.
我的意思是，我们的作品已经卖到了世界各地。
I mean, we've sold all over the world.
这简直太令人兴奋了。
It was just totally exciting.
我们有一个相当大的展示。
And we had quite a big presentation.
我们还在一个新地点，新的展位区域，这让我有点紧张。
We were in a new location as well, a new booth area, which I was slightly nervous about.
最后，这个地方对我们来说简直太棒了。
In the end, it was an incredible spot for us.
而且，确实进行得非常顺利。
And, yeah, it went really well.
实际上，我在周六和我们共同的朋友艾登·特纳一起逛了逛，他演过电视剧之类的。
And I actually did walk around on the Saturday with a mutual friend of ours, Aidan Turner from TV and stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
我们一起拍过《人性》。
We did Being Human together.
没错。
Exactly.
他是个演员。
He's an actor.
他现在也开始接触艺术，并且收藏一些作品。
And he's also getting into art now and collecting a bit.
通过我？
Through me?
通过你。
Through you.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
敬佩。
Respect.
谢谢。
Thank you.
所以我带他逛了整个集市。
So I walked him around the fair.
在那期间，我自己也看到了一些令人惊叹的亮点。
And during that, I saw some amazing highlights myself.
你看到了什么？
What did you see?
我看到的最喜爱的作品是琳内特·亚达姆·博阿奇的一幅画，画中一个人斜倚在一张沙发或日用床上看书。
My favorite painting I saw well, my favorite work I saw was a painting by Lynette Yadam Boacci, and it was of a man reclining, reading on a kind of sofa or a Day bed.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这在这样一个繁忙的市场环境中，呈现出一种非常私密、温馨的时刻，我被深深打动了。
And I just found it really like a kind of very personal, intimate moment within this very busy marketplace in a sense, and I was really touched by that.
这幅画是在科比·莫拉的展台展出的，他那里还有一位出色的威尔士陶瓷艺术家，展台上有一件巨大的陶罐，我简直着迷了。
It was at Corby Mora's booth, and he also had an amazing Welsh ceramicist, this giant, like, pot on his booth, which I was obsessed with.
琳内特现在真是迎来了她的高光时刻，对吧？
Lynette is like having her time, isn't she?
她作为一名艺术家已经活跃多年，但几乎从一开始就获得了巨大的机构关注和支持，对吧？
That she's been an artist, has been around for a number of years, but had incredible institutional interest and support right basically from the beginning, hasn't she?
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
她是一位肖像画家，但她的作品从不以真实人物为原型。
She is a portrait artist, but they're never based on actual people.
她笔下的人物和场景都是想象出来的，因此她从不请模特。
They're always imagined characters and imagined scenarios, so she never has sitters.
但琳内特现在正迎来她辉煌的时刻，她曾在奇索姆·豪画廊举办过大型个展。
But Lynette's having this incredible moment, and she would she had big show at the Chisholm Howe.
那场展览是她事业的重大突破。
That was a big breakthrough for her.
那应该是大约八到十年前的事了。
That was, like that must have been ten, eight years.
不。
No.
我觉得没那么久以前。
I don't think it was even that long ago.
真的吗？
Really?
我有
I've got
我有种奇怪的感觉，可能是，
a weird feeling it might be, like,
五年前。
five years ago.
真的吗？
Really?
而且我
And I
我觉得那个展览持续了很久。
think it's long that show.
她还获得了特纳奖提名。
And she got nominated for the Turner Prize.
是的。
Yeah.
她和
And she and
但确实当之无愧，因为她的作品非常特别，每次你
but but and well deserved because the work so special whenever you
看到时都让人感到好奇，因为你并不总能确定它想表达什么
see it's so been intriguing because you're not really sure always it makes
你会想知道他们是谁。
you wonder who they are.
他们有种梦幻般的感觉。
They're dreamlike.
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我认为这是因为它们并不是真实的人。
I think because they're not actually real people.
不是的。
No.
我觉得它们有时是由一些元素拼凑而成的，比如她会用杂志上的剪贴画，可能一条腿来自这里，或者别的部分来自别处，某种程度上它们是混合体。
I think they're made up sometimes from elements of, like you know, she'll have like cuttings from magazines or so some the leg might be from here or the you know, they're kind of composites in a way of
但很多人物只是自然存在，比如你看到的那个，更像是完整的画作，因为那个人物是躺着的，你能看到他的环境，而很多时候，它们是一些漂浮或舞动的人物，是的。
like But some a lot of them just exist like, the one you saw was more kind of a full painting because this guy is reclining, you can see his environment, where a lot of the time, they're kind of figures that are floating or dancing around Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
在某种空间中。
In in a kind of space.
是的。
Yeah.
所以它们具有一种梦幻般的特质，完全如此。
So they they have a dream like quality about Totally.
是的。
Yeah.
她的作品极具辨识度，而且非常特别。
And her work is very recognizably hers, and it's it's incredibly special.
所以那正是你的亮点，你看到了，这真好。
So that's that's great that that was your highlight, you saw that.
它让我感到非常平静，简直像是艺博会中的一片宁静之地。
It just sort of made me feel quite calm, and it was just almost like a respite during the fair.
是的。
Yeah.
你认为为什么在当前的政治和整体环境下，艺博会今年对你们来说如此成功？
Why do you think the fair was especially in our current climate, politically and everything, why do you think the fair was so successful this year for you guys?
你认为为什么它如此国际化？
And why do you think it was so international?
我只是觉得画廊现在成长了。
I just think the gallery's grown now.
你知道，我们已经做了很长时间了。
You know, we've been doing it for a long time.
卡尔从2003年开始的。
Carl started in 2003.
我觉得这本身就是一种情况，你做生意的时间越长，它就会慢慢扩张。
And I think it just it's one of those things, the longer you stay in business, the kind of the more it will slowly expand.
今年确实感觉像是
And this year did feel like a kind of
你有很多忠实的
You had a lot of loyal
汇聚在一起了。
came together.
是的。
Yeah.
非常忠实的客户，这真的很有意义。
Real loyal And it's really quite meaningful.
实际上，我觉得我和收藏家们一起踏上了一段旅程，我们都在共同成长。
Like, it's actually I feel like I'm on this journey with the collectors as well, where we're all growing together.
是的。
Yeah.
但这并不是唯一
And But that that is not the only
作为收藏家，我的经验是，支持一家年轻画廊或新兴艺术家，是最丰富、最有意义的事情之一。当你这样做了，你们就会一起成长。现在我36岁了，从28岁起就开始收藏某些艺术家的作品，如今他们的成就令人惊叹，这些画廊也取得了长足发展。
thing as a that's my experience as a collector is one of the best one of the most enriching things you can get is when you support a young gallery or you support emerging artists, and then you do all grow up, and like now I'm at this age of 36, and I've been collecting certain artists since I was 28, and now they're really doing incredible things, and these galleries are really going somewhere.
如果你曾参与这段旅程，参与了这个故事，你就是推动这一机制运转的齿轮之一——或许微小，或许重要，我也不确定具体是什么，但你确实参与了推动他们走到今天的过程。
If and you've been part of that journey, you've been part of that story, you've been kind of a cog, Tight maybe tiny, maybe big, does I don't know what it is, but you've been part of a cog that's been turning that mechanism towards where they are now.
我觉得我一直是Carl Freeman画廊和Counter Editions的一部分，是的。
And I feel like I've been part of Carl Freeman Gallery and Counter Editions Yeah.
你的世界
Your world
是的。
Yeah.
很长一段时间。
For a long time.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It's true.
今年特别棒的一点是，我刚在画廊工作时，一些艺术家的作品价格要低得多，可能只有2000英镑、3000英镑左右。
And the thing that was really nice this year is that when I first started working at the gallery, a lot of the price points for some of the artists would have been lower, so maybe, like, £2,000, £3,000.
但现在这些艺术家的价格上涨了，因为他们的职业生涯有了发展。
And now they've gone up, you know, for some of these artists because their their careers have evolved.
他们举办了美术馆展览。
They've got museum shows.
他们也在做其他不同的事情。
They're doing different things.
随着时间推移，他们的作品价格也在上涨。
And as time goes on, their prices go up.
令人着迷的是，那些在价格较低时就支持我们的收藏家，现在依然在更高的价格点上购买。
And it's fascinating that those collectors that did support us when it was the lower price point are still buying at the higher price point.
我也是这样做的。
And I do that.
这太令人兴奋了。
It's so exciting.
我也是完全这么做。
I do exactly the same.
直到价格高到我买不起为止，这简直疯狂。
I don't until you get priced out, and it's crazy.
但如果你能做到这一点，拥有这些作品，并知道你当初在最低价时就入手了，现在依然能够继续支持并保留它们，这真是太棒了。
But if you can do that, it's it's amazing to have these works and to know that you were there and you bought that when it was at its lowest point, and now you're still able to support and still have that
联系。
connection.
是的。
Yeah.
与艺术家共同成长，但是
Grow with the artist, but
也要
also get
在他们职业生涯的后期再入手一件作品，你知道的，不管怎样。
get a work, you know, at a later point in their their over or whatever.
是的。
Yeah.
但是你觉得
But what
整体上你觉得怎么样？
do you think is affair as a whole?
感觉是不是像，嗯，
Did it feel like Well,
我发现，我确实感受到伦敦和英国充满了热情，我交谈的一些收藏家去过赫普沃斯韦克菲尔德，去过亨利·摩尔，他们真的去了像豪泽与沃斯在布鲁顿这样的地方，他们在英国各地进行了不同的参观。
I found I I really felt there was so much enthusiasm for London and England, and people had some of the collectors I was speaking to had been up to the Hepworth Wakefield, they'd been to the Henry Mor, like, they were actually they'd went to, like, for example, Houser and Wirth in Bruton, like, they were sort of doing different things across The UK.
但伦敦当时也有那么多精彩的展览，我的意思是，比以往任何时候都多。
But then also in London, there were so many amazing shows on, I mean, I think more than ever before.
南伦敦画廊重新开放了，我最近去参加了它的开幕展。
The South London Gallery had reopened, which I went to the opening of recently.
六位建筑师翻新了这座令人惊叹的旧消防站，展览的亮点是我特别喜欢的丽贝卡·沃伦创作的一幅猫的拼贴画。
With six, architects, they've renovated this incredible old fire station, and has an amazing collage that was the highlight of that show for me by Rebecca Warren, of this cat.
这太天才了。
It's genius.
我非常喜欢这件作品。
I love that work.
你有这张图的照片吗？
Have you got a picture of it?
是的。
Yeah.
我有。
I do.
在我手机里。
It's on my phone.
我可以给你看。
I can show you.
你最近在用Instagram，对吧？
You're recently on Instagram, aren't you?
你确实用过。
You've been on Yeah.
我用过。
I've yeah.
大概一年前，我曾用过Instagram一个月。
Basically, I was on Instagram for one month, about a year ago
嗯。
Mhmm.
结果我总是发一些针织品的特写照片。
And I was ending up just, like, posting Zoom ins of, like, my knitwear.
实际上，包括特蕾西在内的几个朋友打电话给我，说你应该去读个纺织学位
And a few friends, including Tracy, actually, called me up and were like, you need to go and do a textiles degree
然后
and come
离开Instagram。
off come off Instagram.
这真的很尴尬。
It's really embarrassing.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我定了个新规矩，不发布我的针织品了，不过几天前我又回到了Instagram。
So I've got a new rule that I don't post my knitwear, but I am back on Instagram as of a few days ago.
你知道我在想什么吗？关于我们播客的参考是，如果你的Instagram或者我们有一个Instagram广告，我们有一个R和R和R的Instagram，当我们谈论作品时，我们实际上会把作品放在那个Instagram上，然后你可以把它们作为一个参考点，当
Do know what think of with this ref in reference to our podcast is that if your Instagram or we have an Instagram ad, we have an R and R and R Instagram, that when we talk about the works, we actually put the works up on that Instagram, and then you can see them as a reference point when
哦，这主意不错。
you Oh, that's a good idea.
播客。
Podcast.
是的。
Yeah.
我喜欢我们这样即兴发挥的样子。
That's I love how we're, like, we're making this up.
我们确实在即兴发挥。
We're making this up.
是的。
Yeah.
边做边想。
As we're doing.
我们的计划是定期做这个，然后邀请艺术家、画廊主和其他人参与，也许通过电话连线，或者请他们亲自到场，视情况而定。
What planning to do is do this on a regular basis and then invite artists, gallerists, other people in, maybe, like, phone them in or get them here in the flesh and then bring them in depending
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
如果那是而且
If that's And
我们已经有不少人想来参加，这很不错。
we've already got quite a few people who wanna come on, which is nice.
当然了。
Big time.
哇哦。
Woo hoo.
但今年我参加弗里兹艺博会的经历感觉是我最平静的一年。
But so my experience with Frieze was this year felt like the calmest year for me.
感觉非常……我觉得这是因为，据说他们设置了两个VIP日，两天都是。是的。
It felt very and I think it's because, apparently, they had two VIP days, two days that were Yes.
他们安排了星期三和星期四。
They had Wednesday and Thursday.
星期四。
Thursday.
是的。
Yeah.
所以感觉好像没那么赶了。
So it felt it felt a lot kind of felt like there was less of a rush.
没那么狼狈不堪了。
It was less of a, like, sweaty mess.
我总是犯一个错误：因为艺术展前有很多派对，我总是在前一天晚上参加这些艺术派对喝得醉醺醺的，第二天去艺术展时感觉状态很差，有点焦虑。
I always make the mistake because there's parties leading up to the art fair, I always make the mistake the night before of getting kind of drunk at one of these art parties, and then turning up at the fair the next day and feeling rough and kind of slightly anxious.
然后你就搞不清楚到底该不该买什么东西。
And then you don't know what to whether you should buy something or not.
你只是有点
You just sort
买了它。
of buy it.
你最后就会被逼得不得不买点什么。
You just end up getting, like, cornered and buy something.
但每次我都想，我为什么要这样对自己？
But I every single time, I was like, why have I done this myself?
我到了艺博会时已经精疲力尽，脸色苍白，浑身发冷。
And I get to the fair and I'm exhausted and I just feel really pale and clammy.
但我去了乔·布拉德利在高古轩画廊的开幕活动，之后他还安排了在安妮贝尔的晚餐和饮品。
But I went to the the Joe Bradley had an opening at Gagosian Gallery, and there was a he had a dinner drinks at Annabelle.
于是我去了那里，本来没打算多喝，但他们一直给我添酒，你不喝的话会觉得不好意思。
So I ended up there, and I wasn't gonna drink much, but they kept filling up my glass, and you feel bad if you don't
什么？
What?
所以基本上，你第二天去艺博会时是完全醉酒状态？
So basically, you turned up for the fair the next day completely, like, hungover?
是的。
Yeah.
哦，天哪。
Oh, wow.
我知道。
I know.
乔的展览怎么样？
How was Joe's show?
很棒。
It's great.
我真的很喜欢乔·布拉德利。
I I I love I love Joe Bradley.
我觉得他的画作非常有力。
I felt like it was he's well, his painting is incredibly strong.
这些画作都非常有力。
They're incredibly strong paintings.
它们非常有乔·布拉德利的风格。
They're very Joe Bradley.
我认为我们看到的并不是什么以前没见过的东西。
I don't think we're seeing something we haven't seen before.
我认为我们看到的是一位极其有才华、成就卓著且重要的艺术家，正在创作我们早已熟知他能够完成的作品。
I think we're seeing an an incredibly talented, accomplished, important artist producing work that we know he can produce.
对我来说，这场展览并不像是一场彻底颠覆性的展示。
It didn't feel like, for me, a show that was totally groundbreaking.
它只是让你看到一些作品，
It just felt like you're seeing work that
但这没关系。
But that's okay.
我的意思是，
I mean,
那完全没问题。
doesn't That's completely fine.
我对这一点没有任何意见。
I've not got a problem with that.
是的。
Yeah.
但那是一场大型展览，我觉得他下次再做这么大规模的展览时，我们会看到一些不同的东西。
But it was a big show, and I feel like the next show he does that's as big as that, we're gonna see something else.
但同时，我认为人们有时会忘记，当代艺术并不容易突然不断重塑自己，甚至也不一定非得重塑自己。
But also, I think people sometimes forget with contemporary art that it's not that easy just to suddenly keep reinventing yourself or even necessary to reinvent yourself.
没错。
True.
我们这个时代一些伟大的艺术家，他们的作品变化和演变实际上需要几十年，或者需要很长时间。
And some of the great artists of our time, like, the changes and the evolution of the work actually take decades or it can take a long time.
所以并不是说每件作品都必须如此，但我觉得如今，由于我们习惯了Instagram和这些沟通方式的文化，作品甚至不一定是可丢弃的，而是非常快速、节奏极快。
So it's not like each but I think these days, because we're used to a culture on Instagram and all of these ways of communicating, that it's not even necessarily just disposable, but it's it's very, like, fast paced.
而且我认为我们都想要一些新的东西。
And I think we all want something new.
这几乎就像时尚产业，每个季节都要有新的变化。
It's almost like the fashion industry, the way that each season something's different.
我们似乎都沉迷于变化的概念，但我几乎觉得，艺术中更微妙的改变或许反而是好事。
It's like we're all getting obsessed with the idea of things changing, but I almost think more subtle change in art is actually maybe a a good thing.
没错。
Correct.
你所说的，如果从宏观角度看一个人的职业生涯，是的。
And you what you're saying is if you took a bird's eye view out on someone's career Yeah.
你做过这个，你会看到。
You did this you will see
也许你会看到更多。
And maybe you will see more.
是的。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Totally.
甚至如果你看一下
And even if you look
我的意思是，我非常喜欢它。
I mean, I loved it.
我不是说，像
I'm not I'm not, like
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我完全，像
I was completely, like
是的。
Yeah.
对它感到非常兴奋。
Thrilled with it.
太棒了。
Was amazing.
我还没看过，因为我一直在展会布置，所以根本没去成。
I haven't seen it yet because I was installing at the fair, so I didn't actually make it.
太棒了。
It's great.
你知道吗，我去参加了弗纳画廊的凯瑞·詹姆斯·马歇尔开幕展。
You know, I came from I went to the Kerry James Marshall opening at the Verna Gallery.
哦，哇。
Oh, wow.
太兴奋了。
So excited.
见到了他，还见到了他妻子。
Met him, met his wife.
哦。
Oh.
莱内特也在那儿，哦。
Lynette was there Oh.
在哈莱姆经营工作室博物馆的是杜罗·罗的妻子。
Who runs a studio museum in Harlem is Duro Luo's wife.
哦，
Oh,
是的。
yeah.
泰尔玛·戈尔登。
Thelma Golden.
谁发现了戈尔登？
Who found the Golden?
对。
Yes.
她很好，我遇见了她。
She met well, I passed her.
我跟她打了招呼。
I said hello.
我有点粉丝心态。
I felt a bit starstruck.
但那是一场精彩的开幕展，太棒了。
But that was a brilliant opening, amazing show.
我只看了楼下。
I only saw downstairs.
我没能上楼，然后去了乔的展览，接着去参加晚宴，之后带着点宿醉去了艺博会。
I couldn't get upstairs, and then went to Joe's show, and then went for the dinner, and then turned out to the fair slightly hungover.
但那很美好。
But it was lovely.
今年，特蕾西·埃明负责策展德意志银行休息区。
And and this year, Tracy Emmin was curating the Deutsche Bank lounge.
是的。
Yeah.
她布置了一整条走廊，展示的是迷迭香主题的卡车水彩画。
And she had a a whole, like, a corridor of rosemary trucker watercolors.
然后你进去后，她把德意志银行收藏中的女性艺术家作品集中陈列悬挂，非常酷。
And then you went in and she had female artists from the Deutsche Bank collection that she installed and hung together, and that was really cool.
是的。
Yeah.
她还做了一个慈善项目，德意志银行收藏中的每位艺术家都创作了一张独特的明信片，我认为每张售价200英镑。
And she also did this charity project where each person in the collection of Deutsche Bank, they made a like a unique postcard, and they sold them, I think, for £200 each.
她把所有收益捐给了六个不同的慈善机构，其中包括马盖特的一家家庭暴力援助机构。
And she gave all the proceeds to like six different charities, including a domestic abuse one in Margate,
而且这真的
And which was really
她还创作了一件新的霓虹灯作品，名为《另一个世界》，这也是展览的标题。
she made her own new neon as well called Another World, which was the title of the exhibition.
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
Superb.
是的。
Yeah.
你在弗里兹艺术展上的亮点是什么？
What was your highlight in in Frieze?
你发现什么新的东西了吗？
You discover anything new?
我知道你提到过
I know you mentioned
嗯，是的。
Well, yes.
所以那个，那个，那个高光，是的。
So the the the high yeah.
范妮莎·卡洛斯是卡洛斯·伊希卡瓦的画廊。
Vanessa Carlos is Carlos Ishikawa's gallery.
他们有
They have
烧毁的埃克曼斯。
Burnt Eckermanns.
是的。
Yes.
烧毁的埃克曼斯是一位艺术家，我觉得。
Burnt Eckermanns was an artist, and I think
哦，天哪。
it's Oh, no.
烧毁的埃克曼斯。
Burnt Eckermanns.
本特。
B e n d t.
抱歉。
Sorry.
不是烧毁的。
Not Burnt.
烧掉的。
Burnt.
烧掉的。
Burnt.
烧掉的。
Burnt.
艾克曼。
Eckermanns.
艾克曼。
Eckermanns.
所以他是一位23、24岁的艺术家。
So he's a 23, 24 year old artist.
我没意识到他这么年轻。
I didn't realize he was that young.
他并没有
He didn't
意识到这一点。
realize that.
我没意识到，但他她有一个展示他作品的个人展位，画的是具象画。
I didn't realize But he she had a solo booth of his work painting their figurative
我觉得最让我印象深刻的是，它们确实是具象的。
I guess that struck me most about them was yeah, they are figurative.
最让我印象深刻的是光影的运用。
The thing that struck me most was the the use of light.
它们有一种非常奇特的光线。
They had this really strange light.
那几乎像是一种黄昏或暮色。
It's almost like a kind of dusk or twilight
或者序列。
or Serials.
是的。
Yeah.
而且对你来说，那种感觉是一种奇怪的黑暗。
And it felt like a weird darkness to you.
是的。
Yeah.
我本来觉得最近没怎么见过这样的——是的。
And I'd have felt like I hadn't seen that in recent Yeah.
绘画作品，所以确实感觉很不一样。
Paintings, so it did feel quite different.
而发现那个展位就像偶然 stumble 到那里一样，让我惊叹：哇，这真不错。
And that was a discovery that's like that was stumbling on that booth was like, wow, this is good.
当你有这样的发现时，真的很令人兴奋。
And that's exciting when you do that.
很多时候，你会认出那些作品，或者你可能在边缘见过，或者在 Instagram 上看到过，但这些作品我以前从未见过。
A lot of the time, you do recognize the work or you might have seen it on your periphery or you've it's been on Instagram or something, but this was work I'd never seen.
我觉得这完全是一次成功。
I thought that was a total success.
我想她告诉我，整个展位的作品都卖光了。
I think she told me they completely sold out the whole booth.
是的。
Yeah.
我肯定。
I'm sure.
我真为他感到兴奋，他的下一件作品肯定会备受期待，也理应如此。
Really excited for him, so his next thing is gonna be hotly anticipated, and so it should be.
我看到了很多出色的作品。
I saw a lot of great work.
很多出色的作品。
A lot of great work.
你去雕塑公园了吗？
Did you go in the Sculpture Park?
没有。
No.
我错过了雕塑公园。
I missed the Sculpture Park.
哦。
Oh.
我知道。
I know.
我得去演一部剧。
I I got to go and do a play.
哪一部剧？
Which play?
我现在正在演的那部剧。
The play that I'm in at the moment.
哦，是品特奖。
Oh, the Pinter Prize.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我在舞台上表演。
So I'm I'm performing on the stage.
所以我想着，我得抽空离开一下，确保自己能赶回来参加。
So I was like, you know, I had to skip off at some point and make sure I was around for that.
但确实如此。
But yeah.
我的意思是，我觉得今年还不错，但并没有太多让我惊叹的时刻。
I mean, I I thought it was it was good this year, but it was it didn't feel like I had as many wow moments.
是的。
Yeah.
但也许这是因为你平时一直在看艺术作品，所以未必会有那种惊喜感。
But also, maybe that's because you're constantly looking at art anyway, so you're not necessarily gonna Sure.
因为你已经知道每个人会展示什么了。
Discovering things because you already know what everyone's gonna be presenting.
当然。
Sure.
而且一个
And a
很多时候，你知道，如果你在画廊里，他们会发给你一份预览PDF，这样你就能知道他们会展示什么。
lot of the times, you know, if you're in the galleries, they do send you, like, a preview PDF, so you know what they're gonna be showing.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得托比的展位，现代机构做得特别好。
I thought Modern Institute for Toby's booth was so good.
我想他们赢得了最佳展位奖。
They won the award, I think, for best stand.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，他们后面那个房间是
Well, the room at the back that they had was
我觉得另一个很棒的是伦敦的年轻画廊Union Pacific，他们展示了扎迪·查尔
The other thing I thought was great was one of the younger galleries, Union Pacific from London, they were showing Zadie Char
是的。
Yeah.
那是谁的？
Who Was that the
双人展区？
both lead section?
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
而且我觉得她确实获得了……哦，不是。
And we actually I think she won oh, no.
她没得奖，但我认为英国当代艺术协会买了一些她的作品收藏。
Didn't win a prize, but I think contemporary art society bought some of her work for a collection in UK.
是的。
Yeah.
但那个展位真的很突出，她有着非常独特的表达方式。
But that booth really stood out, and she's very much got her own language.
今年，卡姆登艺术中心为聚焦板块设立了一个新兴艺术奖，
Well, this year, the Camden Art Centre set up an emerging art prize for the focus section
是的。
Yes.
获奖者将获得一场个人展览，
Where they would give a solo show to an artist
她太棒了。
She's amazing.
这太棒了。
Which is amazing.
我以旁观者的身份参与了这件事。
I was involved in that on the periphery.
我为艺术奖捐了款，并且作为评审委员会的一员出席了。
I I donated towards the art prize, and I was there as part of the committee, judging committee.
今年，一位名叫黄炳的艺术家获奖了。
And this year, an artist called Wong Ping won.
太棒了。
Great.
他们将在不久的将来在卡姆登艺术中心举办个展。
And they'll be having a show at Camden Art Centre in the near future.
这太棒了。
That's amazing.
是的。
Yeah.
但这是全新设立的一项举措，非常令人兴奋、重要且具有支持性，因为你知道，当前环境下，新兴艺术的支持力度是起伏不定的。
But that's so that's a whole new thing that's been set up that's incredibly exciting and important and supportive because, you know, the current climate, emerging art has ebbs and flows of, you know, support.
有时候，最新兴的艺术最为重要。
Sometimes it's the most important, like, very emerging.
有时候它是最关键的，所有人都在支持它，而其他时候，它却被搁置，直到艺术家更成熟了，收藏家和机构才开始感兴趣。
Sometimes it's the most important thing and everyone's behind it, and other times, it sort of gets left until they're more established, and the collectors then wanna come in and institutions more interested then.
所以
So
而且我认为你支持这一点很棒，因为这体现了你真正的热情。
it's And I think it's great that you're supporting that because that's genuine passion for you.
你不是也在支持泰特美术馆的……吗？
And don't you also aren't you supporting the Tate now with
艺术现在？
Art Now?
是的。
Yeah.
泰特美术馆在泰特不列颠设有“艺术现在”项目，我是该活动的赞助人之一。
So the Tate has Art Now at the Tate Britain, and I'm one of the patron benefactors of that.
对。
Yeah.
我以为我在墙上看到你的名字了。
I thought I saw your name on the wall.
你确实去了。
You you did.
瞧瞧。
There you go.
你确实去了。
You did.
你本来以为
You didn't think
我其实去看了特纳奖，顺便说一下，那是拉塞尔在倒水。
I I was there actually for the Turner Prize because by the way, that's Russell pouring water.
是我，不是撒尿。
It's me not urinate.
不是玉米和食物。
Not Corn and food.
我其实想喝茶，但他给我的是水。
I've actually wanted tea, but he's given me water.
你得到了一杯茶，今年的特纳奖真是一个非常有趣的补充。
You got a tea by the The Turner Prize this year is a really interesting addition.
我不知道你有没有看过，但是
I don't know if you've seen it yet, but
没有。
No.
我看过其中四部中的其中一部，谁是
I I've seen one of the four Who's
今年被提名的？
been nominated this year?
作品完整地呈现了。
Works in in full.
我看过的是来自格拉斯哥的夏洛特·普罗德格的作品，这是一部大约三十五分钟的影片，我觉得它非常感人。
The one that I watched was Charlotte Prodger, who's based in Glasgow, and it's about thirty five minute film, and I found it incredibly touching.
我完全沉浸其中，深受触动，以至于看完后，我只想离开，因为刚看完这部作品。
And I was so sort of into it and moved by it that by the end of it, I just wanted to leave having just watched that.
所以我会回去再看其他的。
So I'm gonna go back and see the others.
所以你只看了她的作品就离开了？
So you did leave after just watching that?
是的。
Yeah.
我只看了她的作品，因为我真的被它深深激励了。
I just watched hers because I I actually felt really sort of inspired by it.
我非常喜欢影片中视觉上的联系以及色彩的运用。
And I loved the visual connections through it and the use of color throughout the film.
它几乎像是一部日记，有很多旁白配合画面，非常个人化。
And it's a very it's got almost like diary elements to it, like she kind of there's a lot of spoken word, like over the visuals, and it's very personal.
我离开时只觉得，哇，我太喜欢这部作品了。
And I I left just feeling really like, wow, I love that.
我只是想，我要等一等，改天再回来观看另外三位提名者的作品。
And I just thought, I'm gonna wait and come back and see the other three nominees at another time.
因为今年有趣的是，所有作品都是电影形式的，所以它们都在黑暗的房间里展出。
Because this year, interestingly, they're all film based works, so they're all in kind of dark rooms.
所以这不像只是走过来看雕塑并沉浸其中那样直接，你得集中注意力去观看。
So it's not as straightforward as just walking through and seeing sculptures and soaking up It's kind of like you have to focus on it.
是的。
Yes.
我想把我的时间留给她。
And I wanna give my time to it.
对。
Yes.
后来我碰巧遇到了夏洛特，当时我完全沉浸在那种情绪中，简直像飘飘然一样。
And I actually bumped into Charlotte afterwards, and I was just completely, like, almost, like, you know, high from it.
我觉得它真的很打动人。
I found it really touching.
你有告诉她吗？
Did you tell her?
是的。
Yeah.
我告诉了她。
I did.
是的。
Yeah.
而且作品中对自然影像的运用非常出色，比如有一个令人惊叹的时刻，她正在海上的一艘渡轮上拍摄，你只能看到渡轮上下起伏。
And just the use of the images of nature in it, like, there's this incredible moment where she's filming on a kind of ferry in in the sea, and you just see the ferry moving up and down.
那是一种强烈的动感。
It's kind of like a strong, like, motion.
简直太不可思议了。
It was just totally incredible.
还有另一个片段，她身处类似山地或树林的区域。
And then another bit where she's in almost like mountains or tree area.
全是这些美丽的树木。
It's all these beautiful trees.
所以我得去
So I need to go and
再说，我演过一部剧。
see again I had a play.
我觉得我们应该一起去，因为你还没
I think we should go together because you haven't
是的。
Yes.
得去。
Need to.
演剧真的很棒，但你会错过所有的首演和其他活动，因为你没多少时间。
The thing is doing a play is is amazing, but then, like, you miss out on all the openings and things because you don't have much time.
但我打算把那些都补上，那会非常令人兴奋。
But I'm gonna be catching up on all of those, which would be incredibly exciting.
现在伦敦正在上演的那部热门剧叫什么？
What's that blockbuster show in London at the moment?
这不是安妮·阿尔伯特的吗？
Isn't it Annie Albert's?
是的。
Yes.
它刚刚开始上演。
It's just opening tape.
很现代，是的，我要去看看。
Modern, yes, gonna go and check that out.
那一定会非常令人兴奋。
That's gonna be very exciting.
我迫不及待想看了。
I can't wait to see that.
是的。
Yeah.
我也是。
Me too.
所以今年我做的一件大事就是把我的公寓开放给弗里兹艺术博览会的贵宾们。
So I did I the big thing for me this year was that I opened up my apartment to Frieze Art Fair VIPs.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
所以我大约有40个人来参观。
So I had about 40 people come in.
你错过了艺博会，过来帮我了。
You skipped out the fair and come and help me.
我确实去了。
I did.
嗯，我本来以为我来不了，因为那是周五上午11点左右。
Well, I thought I wasn't gonna be able to come because it was, like, 11AM on Friday
十二点到一点半。
Twelve to 01:30
没错。
on Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
我是提前来的，没错。
Like, I had to come before and, like Yes.
检查一下饮品和开胃小食是否准备好了。
Check that all the drinks and canapes were okay.
好的。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
早上就喝得醉醺醺的，所以那些小食非常美味。
Drunk drunk in the morning, so they were delicious.
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
Great.
太精彩了。
It was amazing.
这非常令人畏惧，但也很令人兴奋。
It it was incredibly daunting but exciting.
邀请人们来你家，确实是一件很大的事。
Well, it's quite a massive thing to invite people into your home.
是的。
Yeah.
而且你还有迈克尔·克雷格·马丁，这位世界顶级艺术家来采访你，这简直太妙了。
And you have Michael Craig Martin, who's one of the world's leading artists, interview you, which was pretty genius.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我特别喜欢你把他的印刷作品放在浴室里的做法。
And I loved the way you had his screen print in the bathroom.
马桶。
The toilet.
客用洗手间。
The guest toilet.
是的。
Yes.
但每个人都会看到，确切地说。
But everybody would have seen it Exactly.
因为每个人都用过马桶。
Because everybody used the toilet.
是他送给你的吗？
Did he give you that?
是的。
Yeah.
那它是什么？
And what is it?
它是一盏灯。
It's a light.
它是一盏
It's a
国家剧院定制的，所以它像一盏舞台灯。
national it was made for the National Theatre, so it's like a stage light.
哦，所以这是他对舞台灯的诠释。
Oh, So it's his his figuration of a of a stage light.
你花了一个月左右的时间重新布置了一下收藏品，对吧？
And you'd you'd spent, like, a month kind of reinstalling the collection a bit, hadn't you?
是的。
Yeah.
所以啊，是的。
So I yeah.
所以，这真是个讽刺，对吧？在过去三个半月里，我一直在忙着开演这部剧、排练，每天都有装修工人进来，装修我的公寓。
So I've this this is the irony, right, is that I've been spending the last, like, three and half weeks, while I've been, like, opening the play, taking the play, rehearsing, having builders in every day, decorating my apartment.
我得到了所有想要的艺术品，一切如愿。
I got all the arts, everything I wanted.
我们完成了巡演。
We did the tour.
太棒了。
It's so good.
巡演真是太棒了。
The tour was so good.
对话也很精彩。
The chat was great.
我和朋友霍莉一起离开，去吃了午饭。
I left with my friend, Holly, and we went and got some lunch.
我去剪了头发，然后接到楼上邻居的电话，说他们可能有点漏水。
I went and got my haircut, and then I got a call from a neighbor upstairs going, think we might a little might have a little bit of a leak.
我当时就说，好的。
I was like, right.
回来吧。
Come back.
我那两居室里简直像在下雨。
It was, like, raining in my two bedroom.
我看了那个视频。
I saw the video.
我到现在还是有点难以接受。
I still can't quite go
放不下。
over it.
我当时就想，这真是讽刺。
I was like, this is ironic.
这太不真实了。
What is this is surreal.
关键是你的公寓看起来真美。
And the thing is your flat looks so beautiful.
我知道。
I know.
我真的被宠坏了。
Literally got spoiled.
我当时想，哦，完了。
I was like, oh, finished.
然后还有
And then there's
一层地板。
a floor.
又来了。
Here we go again.
到处都是。
Everywhere.
你怎么做到的？你做了什么？
How did you what did you do?
你得把所有艺术品都取下来吗？
Did you have to take all the art down?
是的。
Yeah.
我真的是直接冲进去，把东西从墙上拖下来。
I literally run it with I I literally run-in, and I was dragging things off walls.
有些艺术品需要三个人才能挂上去，而我就像超人一样冲进去，心里想着：不行。
There's there's pieces of art that needed Lot three men to hang up, and I was like, superwoman going in there, and I was literally like, no.
把它们从墙上取下来，搬到客厅，全都搬出去了。
Picking them off the wall and putting it in the living room, moving them all out.
所以，我想我侥幸过关了，是的。
So most I think I got away with Yeah.
很多。
A lot.
我的床垫和床都被毁了。
My mattress in my bed were decimated.
我根本没有床垫，只能睡在上面。
I had no mat was sleeping
你当时把手放在座位上，结果就像碰到了水一样。
inside the You were, like, putting your hand onto the seat, and it was just like water.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
椅子就像海绵一样。
It's like a sponge on the chair.
明白。
Yeah.
所以那简直是一大堆保险废话，但全都涵盖了。
So so that's that's just a whole lot insurance blah at a minute, but that's all covered.
没关系。
It's fine.
但这真的很讽刺。
But it was just ironic.
但事情就是这样。
But it is what it is.
生活就是这样。
Life happens.
事情总在发生，你得继续前行。
Stuff goes on, and you move forward.
后来在那周我见到了一些收藏家，他们都对此兴奋不已。
And I met some of the collectors later in the week, and they were all so psyched about it.
他们很喜欢听你讲话，我不断听到关于你的词就是‘热情’，这真不错。
They loved hearing you talk, and they were all the word I kept hearing about you was passion, so that's nice.
哦。
Oh.
你那里还挂着那个特蕾西霓虹灯，上面写着“更多热情”。
And you had that Tracy Neon up, which says More passion.
是的。
Yeah.
明白了。
Gotcha.
所以今年对我来说是重要的一年，参加了弗里兹艺术展，第一次感觉我不再有冒名顶替综合症了。
So that's been a big year for me, that Frieze, and it felt like I, for the first time, feel like I haven't got impostor syndrome.
哦。
Oh.
我觉得多年来，你也一直有这种感觉。
I think for years I think you felt that as well.
对吧？
Right?
也许吧。
Maybe.
进入艺术界时，你会觉得
Going into the art world is that you feel like
我觉得一开始还挺令人望而生畏的。
It was quite daunting in the beginning, I think.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我觉得，作为收藏家，如果你表现出对艺术界真正的热情，人们会更认真地对待你，而我确实如此，你也参与并支持着照顾艺术家和扶持机构这一根本层面。
And I feel like, you know, as a collector, I feel like I'm more people take you more seriously if you show that you're actually passionate about the art world, which I am, and you and you contribute to, you know, the fundamental side of looking after artists and supporting institutions.
所以，如果你在收藏作品的同时，也展现出愿意为此投入资金，这会让你赢得很好的声誉。
So financially, if you show that you're willing to do that as well as collect work, it sets you in good stead.
所以对我来说，第一年我感觉到了，好吧，我知道人们能看出来我是真的
So I for me, it felt like the first year I felt like, okay, that I know I'm people can see that I'm
嗯，我觉得那场对话真的很温馨，因为那完全是关于你收藏之路的分享，而且很多都始于纸上作品和素描之类的东西。
Well, I just I found the talk quite sweet, really, because it was just your journey through collecting, and a lot of it started with works on paper and drawings and things like that.
我觉得这真的很有启发性，因为你并不是那种仅仅因为被人建议把艺术当作投资而收藏艺术品的富人。
And I think it was really inspiring because it wasn't like you were just some sort of very wealthy person who collects art because you've been told to as an investment or something.
我没有顾问之类的人。
I don't have advisers or anything
没错。
like Exactly.
你完全是自己一个人做的，这真的很棒，我也不知道该怎么形容，但听你讲真的很棒。
You just you just sort of done it all all yourself, and it's it's a really, I don't know, it was great to hear.
我觉得马丁·迈克尔也很为你感到骄傲，抱歉，我说的是马丁·迈克尔。
And I think Martin Michael, sorry, was really proud of you as well.
这真是太好了。
It's super nice.
他是个很棒的人。
He's a lovely man.
是的。
Yeah.
是个可爱的人。
Lovely man.
就在 Freeze 之前，嗯。
So just before Freeze Mhmm.
我们去了克拉彭，因为你当时在沃拉特里工作室。
We went out in Clapham because you had been at Studio Voltaire.
你能跟我讲讲这个项目吗？
So can you tell me about that project?
当然可以。
Of course.
沃拉特里工作室位于克拉彭的纳尔逊街，去年，在纽约切尔西的 LGBTQI 教堂，彼得·麦考格为王尔德开放了这座教堂。
So Studio Voltaire is on Nelson's Row in Clapham, and last year at the LGBTQI church in Chelsea in New York, Peter McGough opened up the church for Oscar Wilde.
对。
Right.
那场面很美，教堂前方有一尊木雕的奥斯卡·王尔德塑像，但那里并没有宗教意味。
And it was beautiful, and there was an effigy, a wooden carved effigy of Oscar Oscar Wilde at the front of the church, and it was no there's no religion.
这关乎接纳与社区精神，你可以去那里，获得内心的平静。
It's just about acceptance and a community spirit, and you can go there and just be peaceful.
总之，Studio Voltaire 在伦敦开设了奥斯卡·王尔德教堂，美得惊人。
Anyway, Studee Voltaire has opened the Oscar Wilde Church in London, and it's stunning.
哇。
Wow.
所有收益都将捐赠给阿尔伯特·肯迪信托基金，这是一家慈善机构，我是它的赞助人，致力于支持 LGBTQI 无家可归的青年。
And it's and all the proceeds are going to the Albert Kendi Trust, and the Albert Kendi Trust is a charity, which I'm a patron of, which supports LGBTQI homeless youth.
当他们经历危机时——无论是因为出柜、发现自己是同性恋，还是意识到自己的性取向，都可能失去家园。
So if they're going through crisis where the choice of coming out or the discovery or the knowledge that they are gay in any way, they lose their homes.
这个慈善机构旨在支持和保护他们，这是一家了不起的、极其重要的机构，也是我非常热衷的事业。
This charity is there to support and protect them, and it's an amazing amazing charity and very important and one that I'm very passionate about.
因此，这与 Studio Voltaire 之间存在关联，我同时也是该机构作为公共空间的赞助人，这就像一场完美的巧合，我们在那里举办了一场晚宴。
So there was a link between that and Studer Voltaire, which I'm also a patron of as a institution, as a public space, so it was like a perfect storm and we had a dinner there.
太棒了。
Awesome.
我带了阿尔弗雷德和佩德罗，佩德罗·帕斯卡尔。
And I took along Alfred and Pedro, Pedro Pascal
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
之后他们也和我们一起出来了。
Who also came out with us afterwards.
米切尔森们。
Mitchelons.
是的。
Yes.
我们最后去了
And we ended up at
真好啊。
Good to see.
对面的塔伯斯酒吧。
The Tubers pub opposite.
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