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普希金。
Pushkin.
许多移民被告诉：我们来这里是为了你。
Lots of immigrants are told, we came here for you.
他们对他们的孩子这样说。
They tell their children this.
他们对六岁的孩子这样说。
They tell their six year old children this.
他们真正想表达的是：我拥有你。
And what they're saying is, I own you.
这是一种阴暗的解读，但我确实这样做了。
And this is a sinister interpretation, but I did this.
你这一方的承诺，就是为我过一种体面的生活。
Your end of the bargain is to live a respectable life for me.
这种观念曾是我人生强大的精神支柱，就像我说的，我45岁了，现在才开始思考自己工作的幸福感。
And that was such a strong mental scaffolding for my life that, like, I told you, I'm 45, and I'm starting to only think now about my own happiness with my work.
所以，对我来说，最容易想的就是我为别人做了什么。
So it's the easiest thing for me to think of what I do for somebody else.
一开始是为了我的父母，然后是我的妻子，接着是我的孩子。
First, it was my parents, and then it was my wife, and then it was my children.
所以一切都围绕着他们。
And so it's all about them.
而更难的问题是问自己：什么让你快乐？
And the much more difficult thing is to ask myself, what makes you happy?
你想要什么？
What do you want?
我太不习惯思考这些问题了，以至于我真的没有答案。
I'm so unaccustomed to thinking about that that, I I don't really have any answers.
这是约翰·赵说的。
That was John Cho.
我是萨姆·弗拉戈索，欢迎收听《TalkEasy》。
I'm Sam Fragoso, and this is TalkEasy.
欢迎收听本节目。
Welcome to the show.
约翰·赵是一位你认识且肯定见过的演员，如果你正在收听这个播客或认真聆听这个节目，他可能根本不需要介绍。
John Cho is an actor you know and you have definitely seen before, and he probably needs no introduction if you're listening to this podcast or if you actively listen to this podcast.
但为了让你回顾一下，我还是列出他的主要作品。
But, I will list his main credits in case you need a refresher.
他在《哈罗德与库马尔》中饰演哈罗德。
He was Harold in Harold and Kumar.
他在《星际迷航》中饰演苏鲁。
He was Sulu in Star Trek.
他还出演过《醉历史》、《谎言屋》、《美国 Dad》、《良医》、《马男波杰克》、《明迪烦事多》等剧集。
He has been on shows like Drunk History, House of Lies, American Dad, New Girl, BoJack Horseman, The Mindy Project.
关键是，如果你在过去十年里喜欢过任何一部流行文化作品，那你一定见过约翰·赵。
The point is if you've liked any piece of pop culture in the last ten years, you've seen John Cho.
我得承认，表面上看，每次想到约翰·赵，我都觉得，天啊，他真是个特别特别好的人。
I'll admit, on the surface, every time I thought of John Cho, thought, god, that seems like a really, really nice guy.
而且，你知道，因为你经常在屏幕上看到演员，就会对他们形成一些先入为主的印象。
And, you know, you create these preconceived notions of actors because you see them so often on screen.
如果你有机会见到他们，就会发现几乎所有人，无论他们是谁，都和你之前形成的印象截然不同。
And, you know, if you had the chance to meet them, you realize that almost all of them, no matter who they are, end up being wildly different from the preconceived notions you had created.
不过，我对约翰·赵的判断完全正确。
I was, exactly right about John Cho though.
他是个极其讨人喜欢、富有魅力、善良的人。
He is an incredibly likable, charismatic, kind person.
但在制作这一期节目之前，我做了一些研究，发现尽管他是位相当知名的演员，也是美国电影电视界最重要、或许是最主要的亚裔演员之一。
But, you know, in the lead up to doing this episode, I did some research, and it became clear that although he's a pretty big actor and one of, if not the biggest Asian actor working in American film and television.
但他很少接受那些深入探讨他韩国成长经历、童年早期、青少年时期，甚至刚进入好莱坞时生活的采访。
He hasn't done too many interviews that explore his upbringing in South Korea, his early childhood, you know, what he was like as a teenager, or just even what was his life like starting out in Hollywood.
总之，我在本期节目的早期就提到了这一点，我想一开始这对他来说可能是个令人望而生畏的挑战——和一个陌生人坐在一起一小时，向一个你不熟悉的人倾诉自己的人生，回顾那些你平时很少想起的童年、青少年和成年早期的记忆，还要在广播中对公众公开。
Anyway, I brought that up to him early on in this episode, and I think it was a daunting undertaking at first, you know, the idea of sitting down with a stranger for an hour and unpacking your life to someone you you don't know, and then going through childhood and and teenage and early adulthood memories that you don't often think about, especially on air for the public.
然而，他从一开始就非常配合。
And yet, he was pretty much on board from moment one.
我想说服他花了大约五分钟。
I think it took, like, five minutes of convincing.
然后，我们聊了一个小时，结果是一场我非常喜欢的对话。
And then, you know, we dove into it for about an hour, and the result is a conversation that I really really loved.
在发布这些节目之前，我们的制片人迪伦和我会回听，我总是跟他说：‘这段得剪掉。’
And, you know, before we put out these episodes, Dylan, our producer, and I listened back and, you know, sort of constantly am telling him, oh, we gotta cut this part out.
这段得剪掉。
We gotta cut this part out.
我受不了听到自己的声音，这段又无聊。
I can't stand hearing my voice here, and and this part's boring.
我得说，这次访谈的每一段都很有趣，那些不有趣的部分，你知道怎么样吗？
I have to say, pretty much every part of this interview is interesting, and all the parts that were not interesting, you know what?
它们都没出现在节目里。
They're not in the episode.
所以我想说的是，我真的很喜欢这次谈话，我不知道有没有当面谢过他，现在我就当面感谢他。
So point is I really love this talk, and I don't know if I thanked him in person, so I'm gonna thank him now.
对一个人来说，在对话中如此坦诚和敞开心扉并不容易，尤其是当这些对话会被更多陌生人听到时。
It's not easy for someone to be so honest and vulnerable in conversation, especially conversations that are gonna be consumed by even more strangers.
所以我想感谢约翰·赵能来参加节目，并与我们分享他的生活。
So I wanna thank John Cho for coming on and for, you know, sharing his life with us.
那么，最后，让我们欢迎约翰·赵。
So finally, here is John Cho.
我认为我人生中最关键的一点是频繁搬家。
I would say that the defining thing of my life was moving around a lot.
从主题上来说，我一直觉得自己是个新人。
I would say thematically, that's how I saw myself is always a newcomer.
首先是六岁时搬到美国，之后童年时期又搬了很多次。
First, to America and when I was six and then moving around a lot as a kid.
你记得六岁时搬家的事吗？你有那时的记忆吗？
Do you remember at do you do you have an early memory at six of moving?
有。
I do.
是的
Yeah.
我记得坐飞机的经历。
I remember the plane ride.
我记得到达的时候。
I remember arriving.
我对我在韩国的生活还有一些记忆。
I remember my life in Korea to some extent.
你知道，物质条件非常不同。
You know, was very different materially.
我们家里没有室内卫生间，也没有冰箱，你知道的。
We didn't have a bathroom inside the house and we didn't didn't have a refrigerator, you know.
那是七十年代，确切地说是七十年代中期。
So that was a it was the seventies and it's the mid seventies.
当时首尔是一座战后正在重建、逐渐现代化的城市。
And so it was a Seoul was a city that was rebuilding after a war, and it was becoming modernized.
而且我想，大概我们离开五年后，那里就已经是高层公寓了。
And probably, you know, like I imagine, like, five years after we left, it was, like, high rise apartments.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
变化真是太快了。
Things are changing so rapidly.
真的这么快。
It was that quick.
是的。
Yeah.
但没错，我住在一个非常早期的工业城市里。
But but, yeah, I lived in a kind of very early industrial city.
你还记得父母说我们要搬家吗？
Do you remember your parents saying that we're moving?
我以为我记得，但我不确定那是不是真的记忆。
I thought I did, and I'm not sure if I remember it.
但在我记忆中，有一天他回家告诉我们这件事。
But in my memory, he comes home one day and tells us that.
是的。
Yeah.
你父亲？
Your father?
是的。
Yeah.
我记得曾告诉过 neighborhood 的一个朋友，我们要搬去美国。
I remember telling my a friend of mine in the neighborhood that we were moving to America.
然后，像孩子们常做的那样，他说，对啊。
And then as kids do, he said, yeah.
我也是，老兄。
Me too, man.
所以我记得我们抵达后，从车窗往外看。
And so I remember landing and, you know, looking out the car from my pal.
他是在这儿吗？
Like, is he here?
他还没到吗？
Is he here yet?
他比我先到吗？
Did he beat me here?
是的。
Yeah.
那感觉不像在炫耀。
It didn't feel like a brag.
我只是告诉他最近的情况，没错。
I was just telling him what was up, but Right.
我觉得他是这么理解的。
I think he took it that way.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，你知道，我觉得你可能也想一起去。
And, know, I think, you know, you probably wanna go as well.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这挺有趣的。
It's funny.
我清楚地记得我12岁的时候，那时我跟你讲过，我在芝加哥长大。
I have a distinct memory when I was 12, and I, you know, I grew up in Chicago, like I told you.
12岁那年，我妈妈，说实话，不再爱我继父了。
And 12, my mom, you know, fell out of love with I'll just be honest with you.
我当时也对继父失去了感情，于是决定和两个兄弟搬到加州，因为她爱上了别人。
I fell out of love with my stepfather at the time and decided to move to California with my two brothers because she had fallen in love with someone else.
但我选择那年留在芝加哥，完成学业并上高中。
And I elected to stay in Chicago that year to finish school and to go to high school.
但我清楚地记得她告诉我他们要离开，而我可以选择跟他们一起去。
But I distinctly remember her telling me that they were leaving, and I had the option to go with.
我不知道。
And I don't know.
关于那件事，我清楚地记得她告诉过我。
Something about that, I had a distinct memory of her telling me.
但随着时间推移，我已经无法准确回想了，一切都变得模糊不清，很难分清时间的先后。
And now as time goes by, I can't pinpoint it as these I just it's all become amorphous, and it's hard to tell the times apart.
这很有趣。
It's interesting.
我也有许多这样的记忆，但我自己也不确定它们是怎么形成的。
I've I I have many of those memories and that I'm not sure how it happened.
有些时候，你会看到一张照片，然后照片就变成了你的记忆。
And some of it is like, you know, you see a photograph and the photograph becomes the memory.
当我对自己的记忆产生怀疑时，往往是记忆中的我以第三人称视角出现，而不是第一人称的亲身感受。
And it's almost like, when I don't trust my memory is when my memory is of me, I can see me in the memory rather than it's like it's third person rather than first person.
于是我就想，这个记忆一定不是真的。
Then I go, oh, this memory must not be real.
我觉得现在的孩子们情况不同，因为一切都记录了下来。
I imagine it's different from my children now because everything's recorded.
所以我不确定这如何影响记忆，因为我们总是——我想这会让记忆更牢固。
So I don't know how that messes with memory because we're constantly I guess it cements it more.
另一方面，你总是在记录事件，而不是真正身处事件之中。
The other hand, it's like you're always recording the event rather than being in the event.
对。
Right.
那么，记忆到底是什么？
So what the hell is a memory?
记忆是什么？
What is a memory?
我不知道。
I don't know.
记忆真的存在于你的脑海中吗？
Does the memory exist in your head at all?
还是我们只是把这些记忆赋予了这些机器？
Or we have we just sort of assigned memory to these machines?
对。
Right.
而不是我们大脑深处的那些东西。
As opposed to the deep recesses of our brains.
对。
Right.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不确定这些东西是否还在被存储。
I don't know whether these things are getting stored anymore.
那你小时候在美国有没有什么早期的记忆？
Well, do you have an early memory of in America as being a young kid?
因为那时候还没有视频电话。
Because there was no video phones then.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
我的意思是，我有很多记忆。
I mean, I I have many memories.
我记得，我有一种矛盾的记忆，一方面过着普通的生活，另一方面又被提醒我们看起来不一样，所以这些记忆是复杂的，你知道的。
I felt you know, I have these conflicting memories of, you know, living a normal life and then being reminded that we look different too, you know, so they're they're they're a mixed bag, you know.
在哪里
Where
你们搬到了哪里？
do you move to?
德克萨斯州休斯顿。
Houston, Texas.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
在德克萨斯州休斯顿，可能没多少人跟你长得很像。
There's probably not a whole bunch of folks who look like you in Houston, Texas.
那时候确实没有，但现在有很多了。
There wasn't at the time, and now there are a lot.
我觉得，你知道吗？
And I think it, you know?
我现在也认识了一些来自休斯顿的韩国人，那里还有很多越南人。
And I I've met Koreans also from from Houston now, and there's a lot of Vietnamese there.
但至少在我住的社区，当时很少有。
But, at least in my neighborhood, there were very few.
所以我看的第一部电影是在休斯顿。
So the first movie I saw was in Houston.
我在韩国没看过。
I didn't see one in Korea.
是哪一部？
What was it?
是《死亡飞船2》，因为休斯顿夏天非常潮湿，闷热难耐，街对面有一家一美元的电影院。
It was Death Ship part two because it's very humid in Houston during the summer and torturously humid and there was a $1 movie theater across the street.
这些电影院现在都消失了，但以前有一种叫二轮影院的地方，你知道吗？电影上映六个月后，
Now these are gone by the wayside but there used to be a thing called second run movie theaters And, you know, six months after it came out,
你可以
you could
看《星球大战》。
see Star Wars.
现在某些地方还存在。
They exist in spots.
现在还有吗？
They do still today?
是的。
Yeah.
二轮影院？
Second run movie theaters?
是的。
Yeah.
帕萨迪纳以前有一家，那里
There used to be one in Pasadena that There
你知道吗？
you know?
你知道吗？
And you know what?
我觉得当时正在放映《双子星》。
I think it was playing Gemini.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
我一直在找这部电影，因为我几个月前看过。
I was looking for it because I had seen it a couple months ago.
我想给某人看看。
I wanted to show someone.
我以为我看到它在放映，因为我觉得它已经不在影院上映了。
And I thought I saw it playing because it's not in theaters anymore, I don't believe.
哦，这真有趣。
Oh, that's funny.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
所以，我们家父亲，你知道的，海报上写着所有座位都是一美元。
So we my father, it's, you know, $1 all seats, said the marquee.
对。
Right.
所以是个很棒的影院。
So Great marquee.
而且还有空调。
And air conditioning.
于是我们全家一起进去了。
So we went in as a family.
现在回想起来，我父母那时候因为韩国没有电影分级制度。
And my parents, now that I look back, because of censorship there wasn't any ratings in Korea.
所以任何电影都适合全家观看。
So any movie was suitable for the family.
他们那时候没有，你知道的，R级电影。
They didn't have, you know, r rated movies.
于是我们进去了，坐下来，开场画面就是有人被刺穿了。
And so we went in, and we sat down, and within I mean, the opening scene was someone getting impaled.
欢迎来到电影院。
Welcome to the movies.
我至今仍记得那个场景，那是真实的一段记忆。
I I still remember it to this that's a real memory.
我记得那是一部关于类似石油钻井平台或海上巨型城市的电影。
I was it was one of these it was like a like an oil rig ship kind of a thing, like these these giant cities on on the on the sea.
起重机上有一个巨大的钩子，一个人被这个钩子刺穿了。
And there was a giant hook on a crane, and a man was impaled by this by this hook.
而且
And
你当时六七岁吗？
you're like six or seven years old?
是的。
Yeah.
吓坏了。
Freaked out.
然后我父母用他们惯用的手法——用手掌遮住我的眼睛。
And then my parents did the trusty palm over the eyes
哦，太棒了。
Oh, perfect.
是的。
Yeah.
我们一直看到那些性爱场景。
We stayed through the sex scenes.
我大部分时间都用手遮着脸，但我们总共只花了四美元。
I my my most of the movie was me just with the palm in my face, but we did pay $4 total.
所以
So
嘿。
Hey.
我们不得不留下来。
We had to stay.
四美元买空调。
$4 for AC.
我的意思是，这并不算糟糕的交易。
I mean, it's it's not a bad deal.
这并不算糟糕的交易。
It's not a bad deal.
这并不算糟糕的交易。
It's not a bad deal.
那时候你父母在做什么？
What were your parents doing at that time?
那时候我妈妈应该没在工作。
My mother wasn't working at the time, I don't think.
后来她当了秘书，而我爸爸当时好像在一家公司做夜间办公大楼的保洁工作。
Later on she she was a secretary and my dad at the time was I think he was working at like a corporate janitorial company that would clean office buildings at night.
我相信那时他就是在做那个，但他换过几次工作，一直在找工作。
I believe that's what he was doing at the time, but he switched jobs a few times, looking for work.
那么他每换一次工作，你们是不是就得搬家？
And so with each job that he switched, did that mean you folks were moving?
头几年没有，还在城里，但几年后，我们就开始频繁搬家了。
For the first few years, no, it was in the city, and then and then a few years later, we started jumping around a lot.
我的意思是，有一阵子我们差不多每六个月就搬一次家。
I mean, like, I think we were moving, like, every six months for a while.
那真是
That was
全得克萨斯州吗？
All around Texas?
不是。
No.
我们去过西雅图、旧金山湾区、圣何塞，还有洛杉矶的几个地方。
We went to Seattle, the Bay Area, San Jose, a few places in LA.
这种频繁搬家对你的童年生活有什么影响？
What does that do for you in terms of trying to be a kid?
我的意思是，当新孩子可一点都不好玩，而且当我们真正陷入这种状态时，我已经上中学了，那对任何人来说都是个艰难的时期，从生理上讲就是如此。
Well, I mean, you know, it's not fun being the new kid, and think, you know, by the time we were in the thick of it, I was in middle school, so that's like a tough time to for anyone, just chemically.
当一个人的这段时期确实很糟糕。
It's a bad time to be a person.
这确实很糟糕，我替你说出来吧。
It's a bad I'll say it for you.
这确实是个艰难的时期。
It's a it's yeah.
当个普通人，这段时期真的很艰难。
It's a for for to be a human being, it's a rough time.
没人知道自己在做什么。
No no one knows what they're doing.
每个人都在发育。
Everyone is Getting boners.
他们的身体正在发生变化。
Their bodies are changing.
他们变得毫无道理地刻薄。
They're unreasonably mean.
他们不知道如何表达自己，于是就到处制造混乱。
They don't know how to express themselves, and so they just wreak havoc.
那确实是一段艰难的时光，你知道的。
So that was a tough time, you know.
然后我们由
Then we By
顺便说一句，正如我所说，我说了这么多，而你的贡献居然是‘勃起’。
the way, like I said, I said all of that and your contribution was Boners.
为了得到勃起。
To get boners.
谢谢，我的自传第三卷，《勃起年代》。
Thanks, Volume three of my autobiography, The Boner Years.
那么在‘勃起年代’里会发生什么？
So what happens in the boner years?
你知道，那时候我们经常搬家，而且当时我们也很穷，所以那种作为新人的自我意识也一直存在。
So you know, you're moving around a lot, and we were also just very poor at the time, so there was that, you know, self consciousness about that, being new.
而且有时候，我们住在亚洲人很少的社区，因此也因为这个而感到自我意识强烈，还被人取笑。
And then also, you know, some of the time we were in neighborhoods that had very few Asians, so there was that self consciousness and being made fun of for that as well.
你还记得被人取笑吗？
You remember getting made fun of?
是的，是的，是的。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
你知道，这挺有趣的。
You know, it's funny.
我现在有孩子了，那种情况几乎不存在了。
I know I now have kids, and there's very little of that.
这是我们住的地方，这对我来说真的很奇怪。
It's where we live, and it's very weird to me.
因为我有时候看到孩子，就会下意识地做好应对那个讨厌小孩的准备。
Because I just felt like sometimes I see children and I'm, like, bracing myself for for the asshole kid.
然后我想，嘿，我现在可比这些孩子大得多。
And I'm like, oh, I I'm I'm a lot bigger than these children now.
真希望有人能看见你握紧拳头的样子。
Wish people could see what you're doing with your fist up.
嗯，
Well,
我记得在我儿子的幼儿园，有一次点心时间，所有孩子都在吃海苔。
so I remember, like, at my, my son's preschool, there was snack time, and all the kids were eating seaweed.
天哪。
Oh my god.
而对我来说，我清楚地记得，曾经因为吃鱼而被嘲笑，那种感觉特别强烈。
And for me, I I had very intense memory of being made fun of for eating fish.
你知道的？
You know?
我小时候听到有个孩子说：'你吃鱼。'
I I heard as a kid and somebody was this kid was like, you eat fish.
你们吃鱼。
You guys eat fish.
这简直是世界上最奇怪的侮辱，所以我一直记得。
It was the strangest insult, and thus I remember it.
这件事一直萦绕在我心头。
It stuck with me.
但你知道，我记得人们总是嘲笑我们吃的一些奇怪的东西。
But, you know, that was like I remember people making fun of the strange things we would eat.
而当时看着那些白人小孩吃海藻，对我来说是个非常奇怪的时刻。
And to be sitting there and watching all these white kids eat seaweed was a bizarre moment for me.
这是进步吗？
Is is that progress?
现在他们都能吃海藻了？
They can eat seaweed now?
当然。
Sure.
我拿走了。
I'll take it.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我的意思是，你知道，安东尼·波登几天前去世了，而饮食文化——我觉得它被夸大了，而且总体上我还是觉得这种食物领域的攀比行为有点荒谬。
I mean, you know, that is it's funny, but, you know, Anthony Bourdain died a few days ago, and food culture has you know, I I I thought it was overblown food culture, and I still think it's kind of ridiculous in general, the the the sort of one upmanship that people do with food
对。
Right.
而且把食物当成一种阶级象征，这真的很荒谬，很多饮食文化都是这样。
And using it as, you know, a class signifier and it's it's it's preposterous, a lot of the food culture.
然而，在社会互动层面，它确实开阔了许多人的视野。
However, in in terms of in the social dynamic, it has opened a lot of people's minds.
俗话说，要站在别人的立场上想问题，也可以改成：吃一顿别人的食物。
And you know, the old adage of walking a mile in a man's shoes could be adapted to eating another man's meal.
对。
Right.
也许你会达成某种理解，无论多么微小，我得承认，这确实算是一点收获。
And perhaps you come to some sort of understanding however small it might be and I have to admit that that is something.
是的，我的意思是，如果这正是所需要的，如果食物能成为某种桥梁的话。
Yeah, I mean if that's what it takes, if it takes food to be a bridge of some kind.
对。
Yeah.
不过我要提醒大家，这并不是一个很好的开场方式。
Although I will caution people, like, it's not a great opener.
比如，我刚刚和许多非韩国人开始了对话，我们不妨这么说吧。
Like, I have I have just started many conversations with people of with non Koreans, let's put it kindly.
而且总是会这样
And it's always like
我非常担心你接下来要
I'm very fearful of Well, what you're about to
总有个烤肉当开场白。
there's always like a barbecue opener.
我就想，好吧。
And I'm like, okay.
行吧。
Alright.
我想这就是你所谓的食物？
I guess that's what you What is food?
这个开场白。
The opener
说了什么？
What is said?
那句话是什么？
What's the line?
嗯，这就是食物开场白吧，我想那里的启示是，我不喜欢人们自我介绍时的方式——当他们一开口就问你最喜欢的韩式烤肉店是哪里，或者讲个泡菜故事之类的，这让我觉得，这就是他们首先看到的东西。
Well, it's the food opener I guess what the revelation there and what I don't like about people what I don't like about the moment people introduce themselves is like when they start a conversation with what's your favorite Korean barbecue place or a kimchi story or whatever is it says to me, that is the first thing you see.
是的。
Yeah.
那绝对是第一点。
That is that is number one.
我会想，哦，原来如此。
And I go, oh, okay.
当我遇到一个人时，我会注意到很多东西。
That's I see a lot of things when I don't when I meet a person.
我不确定那是不是我首先想到的事情，对吧。
I I don't know if that's the first thing I think about Right.
你知道，种族，但我觉得大多数人都是这样定位的，这也是他们进入话题的方式。
You know, the race, but I I think that's how most people are oriented, and and that's their way in.
这没什么问题。
And that's okay.
不，这有问题。
No, it's not.
不，我的意思是这
No, I mean it's
我不这么认为。
I don't think it is.
我实际上不觉得这样可以接受。
I actually don't think it is okay.
这并非恶意，所以我会说这没问题。
It isn't malicious, so I will say it's okay.
这是无害的。
It's benign.
是的。
Yes.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
但它的倾向并不是敌对的。
But its valence is not hostile.
你说得对，但我担心的是，它看起来越无害，
I'm you're right, but I I fear that the more innocuous appearing it seems
对。
Right.
就越隐蔽有害。
The more insidious it becomes.
我接受这个说法。
I'll I'll take that.
是的。
Yeah.
我只是有点犹豫，因为我觉得这不公平也不对，我来自一个不同的世代，我认为像我这个年纪的很多人并不这么想。
I I just I'm a little reluctant just because I don't think it's fair and right, and I come from a different generation, I think, where I don't know a lot of folks my age that think that way.
我真的不这么认为。
I really don't.
确实如此。
It's true.
是的。
Yeah.
你说得对。
You're right.
年龄越小的人，这种情况就越少见。
It is less much less common the younger a person is.
你的孩子肯定不会。
And your kids will definitely not.
完全没有可能。
There's no chance.
你有两个孩子。
You have two kids.
对吧？
Right?
我有两个孩子。
I have two kids.
是的。
Yeah.
我不这么认为。
I I don't think so.
我的意思是，有趣的是，虽然我不是每时每刻都陪在他们身边，但这种事在他们日常生活中所占的分量微乎其微，而在我小时候，它却以更明显的方式深深影响着我的日常生活。
I mean, it's funny how, you know, I don't walk every I'm not there with them everywhere, but it's funny how little that plays in their everyday life whereas it really did play in my everyday life for me in much more obvious ways.
如果对他们有影响的话，那也是看不见的方式。
If it does for them, it's in unseen ways.
你是在上高中时才开始有意识地思考或意识到这一点的吗？
Did you start intellectualizing it or recognizing it more when you were in high school?
没有。
No.
我想说的是，我很早就开始在心里这样想。
I would say that I mean, I remember very early on thinking to myself.
我长大后觉得这件事真让人沮丧。
I said this this this bums me out as an adult.
我真的很同情小时候的自己，因为我记得当时明明想着：天啊，真希望我是白人。
I have such pity for little me because I remember thinking geez, wish I was white.
我的人生会轻松多了。
My life would be so much easier.
我清楚地记得那时的想法，大概七岁吧，你知道的。
And I remember thinking that to myself very consciously, must have been seven, know?
很早就意识到，哦，这条路会平坦得多。
Realizing that very early, oh, this road would be a lot smoother.
是的。
Yeah.
想到这一点，真的很难过。
And so it's very sad to think.
我只是不觉得我的孩子们曾经这样想过。
I just don't think that my kids have ever thought that.
你知道吗？
You know?
我想，听了这些之后，
I I guess, you know, hearing all of this for the last
由于父亲拥有巨大的财富和特权，
Due to the fabulous wealth and privilege their father has Great.
给予了他们无尽的宠爱。
Showered them with.
你完全可以把这段录音发给他们，他们会非常开心地听到，当你从孩子成长为青少年、年轻成年人时，是吗？
You can you can totally send them this recording, and they will be so happy to hear At what point, as you become a kid and then a teenager, a young adult Yeah.
当你出演电影和电视剧时，你是否从小就希望从事表演？
Do you find that being in movies and television that acting is something you wanted to do?
因为根据你的家庭背景，我猜你父亲是个清洁工。
Because I imagine based on your family I mean, your father was a janitor.
你母亲是位秘书。
Your mother was a secretary.
我觉得你并没有一条清晰的成为演员的道路，也没有什么榜样可以参考，尤其是考虑到当时美国影视圈里亚裔人士非常少？
I don't think there was a clear road map to being an actor or examples you had, especially considering there weren't many Asian folks in American television or movies?
我小时候从来没想过这个问题。
I I didn't think about it growing up.
我的意思是，我喜欢电影。
I mean, I liked movies.
我想，我在家是个爱开玩笑的人，但在学校却非常内向。
I think I was you know, I was a jokester in my home and stuff, but I was very reserved at school.
我小时候的艺术表达方式是画画。
My artistic expression when I was a kid was drawing.
那就是我小时候与艺术的联系。
That was what that was my connection to art as a kid.
上了大学后，我转向了文学，然后偶然参加了一部话剧的试镜。
And then when I went to college, it was literature, and then it moved into just a very chance audition for a play.
即使那时，我也觉得这只是个消遣——消遣什么？
And even then I thought it was a diversion Diversion from what?
哦，消遣生活。
Oh, from life.
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你知道吗，当你走进剧院排练一部戏剧时，那正是我最喜欢表演的地方，我现在有点老了，没法像以前那样真正享受它了。
You know, when you go into a theater and you rehearse a play, it's I I mean, I still like that's my favorite thing about acting, and I and I and now I'm a kinda old too old to really relish it in the way that no.
不。
No.
我收回刚才的话。
I take that back.
我的意思是，我再次渴望的是戏剧排练。
I mean, I want it again, is theater rehearsals.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
你走进一个漆黑的房间，那里全是假扮的时光。
You go into this black room and it's just pretend time.
我那时的记忆里，全是些怪人，但和这些怪人待在一起，比和那些优秀的人在一起好多了。
And my recollection back then is all the weirdos, and it was great to be with the weirdos instead of the achievers.
我想，哦，原来如此。
I was like, oh, okay.
我不是他们。
I'm not them.
我就是这些人，
I'm I'm I'm these people,
我想是吧。
I guess.
因为我喜欢这些人，他们更有趣。
Because I like these people, And they were more fun.
所以我记得那时觉得这是打发时间的绝佳方式。
And so I remember feeling like this is tremendous way to pass time.
或者说，在那里时间根本无关紧要。
And or rather, time was irrelevant there.
那真是太棒了。
It was great.
对。
Right.
你知道吧？
You know?
但我直到遇见了一些专业人士才考虑去做，是因为我参演了一部叫《女战士》的剧，这部剧是根据一本书改编的。
But I didn't think about doing it until I met professionals, I did so because there was a play that I was in called Woman Warrior and it was based on a book.
这部剧在我们校园上演，他们需要使用剧场，据我了解，根据合同，他们必须使用几名学生才能使用剧场。
It was being put up at our on our campus and they needed the theater and my understanding is contractually, they needed to use a couple of students in order to to use the theater.
这是一部亚裔美国人题材的剧，所以我符合条件。
And it was an Asian American play and so I Fit the description.
是的。
Yeah.
符合条件，拿到了一个角色。
Fit the description, got a part.
就是那时我认识了亚裔演员，我甚至不知道他们是真的演员。
And it was then that I met Asian actors, and I and I kinda didn't know that they were for real.
我没想过，我之前根本不知道。
I didn't think that I didn't know.
我根本没有认真考虑过这件事。
I didn't put any thought into it.
我想，如果真有亚裔美国演员的话，那也不是什么全职工作。
I I guess I thought that if there were Asian American actors out there, it wasn't like a full time thing.
我以为他们都是
I figured that they were
兼职工作。
That it was a part time job.
对。
Right.
他们白天在邮局上班，看到选角通知才去试试，说实话，我从来没想过这些。
They worked at the post office, and then they saw casting notice, and you know, I didn't have any thoughts about it.
我以为并没有真正的
I didn't think that there were
你以为他们是兼职当演员的。
You thought they were moonlighting as actors.
没错。
That's right.
所以我不知道那会是人们的正经职业，后来我认识了一大堆这样的人。
So I didn't realize that was a profession for people, and so I met a whole bunch of them.
他们对我特别好，而且我当时还以为那只是在胡闹。
And they were great to me, and it was it was also like I guess I thought it was fucking around.
抱歉。
Sorry.
我能说那个词吗？
Can I say that?
可以。
Yes.
你在这里可以骂脏话。
You can curse on here.
我以为他们呢，我觉得表演就是胡闹，因为那正是我在学校里干的事。
I thought that they were you know, I thought acting was fucking around because that's that's what I did in my school place.
但他们可是专业人士。
But they like, were pros.
你知道的，比如做热身运动、背诵大量台词、拉伸身体。
You know, like doing warm up exercise memorizing tons of dialogue, stretching.
对。
Right.
你懂的？
You know?
我以为，哦，这不过是一份临时工作。
I thought, oh, this is a gig.
这就像是一种正经事。
This is like a this is like a thing.
当我花时间与他们相处后，我意识到其中大有学问，这是一份值得尊敬的职业，于是我想，好吧。
And so as I as I spent time with them, I realized that there was a lot to know, that there was an honorable profession, and know, I thought, okay.
也许，我也能做这个？
Well, maybe I can I can do this?
我现在比任何其他事情都更喜欢它。
I like it right now more than anything else.
所以
So
有没有哪个工作或角色在早期就让你豁然开朗？
Was there an early encouragement from a job or a role that that clicked in your head?
然后你就想，哦，对啊。
And it was like, oh, yeah.
好吧。
Okay.
这不仅不只是在开玩笑，也许这真的可以成为一份职业。
Not only is this not just joking around, but maybe this key even can be a job.
你知道吗，即使在那段时间里，我也因为演了一些滑稽的场景而得到了一些肯定，这对我来说意义重大。
You know, I I even during that during that run, I felt like I I got some pats on the back for doing the silly scenes that I did, and there and that was very meaningful to me.
我可以跟你讲另一个关于我早期工作之一的故事吗？那是我最早的工作之一，至今仍是我最精彩的表演时刻之一。
Can I tell you another story of, like, one of my early jobs, very first jobs, and it still ranks as one of my greatest acting moments?
说吧。
Go ahead.
好的。
Okay.
是在一个叫VIP的节目里，我特别喜欢那种感觉
It was on I like how
你讲起来这么兴奋。
excited you are to tell It the
是在一个叫《VIP》的节目里，由帕梅拉·安德森主演。
was on a show called VIP, starring Pamela Anderson.
好的。
Okay.
现在
Now
我都觉得这个角色根本没出现在你的IMDb页面上。
I don't even think this is on your IMDb.
好的。
Okay.
最好更好。
Better damn well better be.
VIP 1998年。
VIP 1998.
1998年。
1998.
1998年。
1998.
《VIP》讲的是三个性感的侦探。
VIP was three hot detectives.
好了。
Done.
明白吗？
Okay?
他们在破案。
They're solving crimes.
他们超有魅力。
They're super hot.
天才。
Genius.
这是一部很棒的剧。
This is a great show.
剧名真棒。
Great name for a show.
是的，老兄。
Yeah, man.
总之，我当时在玩《花束快递员》。
Anyway, I was playing Flower Delivery Man.
天啊。
Boy.
在这里叫的是花递送小哥。
On here it is Flower Delivery Guy.
小哥。
Guy.
小哥。
Guy.
小哥。
Guy.
不好意思。
Excuse me.
连个男人都不是。
Not even a man.
总之，那个导演，我永远忘不了他。
Anyway, the director, I'll never forget him.
他叫悉尼·J。
His name's Sydney J.
愤怒
Fury.
糟糕的名字
Bad name.
对不起
I'm sorry.
悉尼·J
Sydney J.
愤怒
Fury.
好名字
Great name.
我走进办公室，侦探办公室，去送花，但我决定装作不知道自己要去哪里。
He I come into the office, the detective office, and I'm delivering flowers, but I decided to play it like I didn't know where I was going.
我当时朝一个方向看，往右看了看，然后往左看，就往左走了。
I was and I looked one way I looked to my right and then to my left, and I went to my left.
在片场，助理导演通常会指导一日演员，而不是那些群演之类的。
And the assistant director often on a set, the assistant director will direct the day players rather than the oh, with extras more like.
我是个群演，但助理导演通常会跟一日演员和群演都说话。
I was an extra, however, the an assistant director is very commonly talks to day players and and extras.
助理导演走过来对我说：嘿。
And the assistant director came up to me and said, hey.
嘿。
Hey.
在左边。
It's to the left.
不在右边。
It's not to the right.
左边。
Left.
我当时在做一个表演上的选择，你知道的。
And I was making an acting choice, you know.
我当时就想，呃。
And I was like, ugh.
我想这招没奏效。
I guess that didn't work.
悉尼·J。
Sydney J.
导演悉尼·J.听到了，就说：嘿。
Fury, the director, hears this and says, hey.
这孩子在表演呢。
The kid's acting.
他在做选择。
He's making a choice.
别打扰他。
Leave him alone.
我感觉被完全理解了。
I was so validated.
我在那个小角色中感到无比被认可。
I felt so validated in that tiny role.
我从未忘记过那一刻。
I've never forgotten it.
我偶尔在片场会想起这件事，你知道，正是因为像那样的小瞬间，依然在某种程度上定义了我对表演的理解。
I'll think about it every once in a while on a on a set, and it comes to me, you know, like because it is like small moments like that that still sort of define a performance for me.
一些细微之处很重要，对我而言，走位尤其关键，无论你是否熟悉那个空间，都要弄清楚自己的身体在做什么。
It's like little things and blocking is tremendously important to me, and figuring out what your body's doing, whether you know or familiar with the space or not.
我对片场的关系对我来说非常重要。
My relationship to a set is very, very important for me.
这有点像排练戏剧时的难点。
It's tangentially like what's difficult about rehearsing a play.
你常常并不在舞台上。
You're often in a you're not on the stage.
你并不在真正的表演场所里。
You're not on the thing itself.
你在排练厅里，他们会用封箱胶带标出来，你知道的，用胶带标记。
You're in a rehearsal hall, and they tape out, you know, with masking tape.
这是卧室。
This is the bedroom.
这边是厨房。
This is the the kitchen over here.
这让我那像松鼠一样的大脑很难适应。
And it's like, it's my my squirrel brain has a hard time with that.
对。
Right.
这总让我在演话剧时做出一些错误的选择，我觉得是这样。
And it always led me to false choices, I felt like, doing plays.
这很
It was
如果没有这些道具，很难避免陷入虚假的状态。
hard to avoid kinda locking in falseness without the stuff.
所以在片场，如果我不能早点到，我喜欢在工作人员还没到的时候去片场走走，感受一下氛围，顺便自我介绍。
And and so, you know, on sets, I really love if I cannot get there early to the set, I like to go visit the set when they're not the crew's not there yet and sort of feel it out and get I introduce myself.
认识一下这个空间。
Meet the space.
你知道的？
You know?
看看什么才合理。
See what makes sense.
是的。
Yeah.
我也喜欢这个故事，因为它清晰地展现了年轻演员为了坚持下去所需要的早期鼓励。
I like the story also because it is very clearly the kind of early encouragement a young actor needs to keep going.
天哪。
Oh my god.
你知道，当你刚入行的时候，特别渴望得到鼓励，不过我不该说‘你’。
You know, you're so thirsty for encouragement when you're or not I shouldn't say you.
我年轻的时候，
When I was young, it
哦，我也是。
Oh, me too.
这意义重大，你知道吗？
It means the whole thing, you know?
如果对方年纪更大，如果你倾向于在意的话——有些人其实根本不关心年长者对他们的看法。
If it's someone older, if you're inclined I mean, some people actually don't care about what older people think of them.
我一向很重视年长者的意见，所以这对我来说意义重大。
I am I I always was inclined to value the opinions of older people, so that meant a lot to me.
你父母最初对你从事表演事业有什么看法？
What did your parents think early on about your acting career?
他们感到困惑，我想，比其他任何情绪都更强烈。
They were mystified, I think, more than anything else.
我想，我一直以来都说，他们确实疑惑过：这能行得通吗？这真的是一条路吗？
I think you know, I've always said it like, they they correctly wondered, is can you do is this a this is a thing?
你也要去邮局工作吗？
Are you gonna have to work at the post office too?
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
我以前讲过这个故事，我爸爸说，他们对此挺友善的。
I I told this story before, my dad said, they were nice about it.
我认为他们首先觉得这是新鲜事。
I think they attributed it to first of all, it was new.
我之前没提过这件事。
I had not talked about this.
我去上大学了。
I went off to college.
在他们看来，就是去上大学了。
In their minds, like, went off to college.
他回来了，他是个演员？
He came back, and he's an actor?
我是说，我不清楚发生了什么？
Like, I don't what happened?
这并不是我从七岁起就一直在谈论的事情。
Like, it wasn't something I was talking about since I was seven.
我没有参加过学校的戏剧演出，所以对他们来说，这大概是一种阶段性的表现。
I didn't, you know, I didn't do school plays, and so this was to them, and and I think that they must have thought it was some sort of phase.
我爸爸说，你有没有考虑过做新闻播报？
And I think my dad said, have you considered newscasting?
因为他看到过康妮·钟在电视上出现，觉得也许孩子就是想上电视。
Because he did see Connie Chung on TV and he figured maybe the kid wants to be on TV, you know.
所以他们也就接受了。
So it was fine.
花了几年时间，但他们完全没有反对。
It took a few years, but they put up no resistance.
他们并不太高兴。
They weren't thrilled.
对。
Right.
他们不是那种我见过的、别人演戏时父母会来看演出的人。
They weren't the kind of people who I see people you know, I remember being in plays and seeing, like, their parents come to see the show.
比如，带花什么的。
Like, bring flowers and stuff.
就是这样。
It was.
大概是白人。
Probably white people.
也许吧。
Maybe.
不是。
No.
不。
No.
当时我并没有和白人一起演戏。
I was I was not acting with white people at the time.
但，是的。
But but yeah.
看到那种对艺术的家长式支持，我觉得非常奇怪。
I was like very weird to see that kind of parental support for the arts.
嗯。
Mhmm.
极大的鼓励。
Huge encouragement.
极大的鼓励。
Huge encouragement.
巨大的、巨大的成年支持。
Huge, huge adult encouragement.
你没有这种感觉吗？
You didn't feel that?
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
但另一方面，我非常庆幸，因为那时候我还是个年轻人，正在摸索自己是谁；作为一个年轻、贫穷、生活围绕艺术的人，这种状态感觉像是在做一件不合法的事。
I was very glad to on the other hand, was sort of like it was I was a young person figuring out who I was doing, in a way, all of this being young, poor, and having a life that revolved around art felt illicit.
而且我觉得父母不应该介入这种事情，这是很自然的。
And felt and it was appropriate that parents should not be involved in this thing.
但后来，它变成了一份工作。
It wasn't later on, it became a job.
但当时，我就像在试穿不同的T恤，试图弄清楚自己是谁。
But at the time, it was me trying on different t shirts essentially and trying to figure out who I was.
你第一次把它当成工作，是在出演《哈罗德与库玛》的时候吗？
Did it first become a job when you got Harold and Kumar?
我觉得我结婚的时候，它才变成了一份工作。
I think it became a job when I got married.
你知道的？
You know?
然后当我有了儿子之后，我应该说，不，当我越来越多地开始从事电影和电视工作时，它变成了这样一种状态：我会想，导演，你需要我做什么？
And and then when I had my son then it became a real I should say no, when I started working in in film and television more and more, it became this thing where I was like, what do you, the director, need from me?
我想把它给你。
I want to give it to you.
直到最近，我才真正开始为自己争取，这对我来说非常陌生。
And only recently have I really started to advocate for myself, which is very new to me.
而且
And
那是什么样子的？
What does that look like?
我的意思是，比如当我们讨论一场戏的时候，你知道，一场戏有多种演绎方式。
Well, meaning like, You know, when we're doing When we're discussing a scene and, you know, there are a number of ways you could do a scene.
我想我更坚定地表达出我认为这场戏的核心是什么。
I guess I'm more forceful about saying this is what I think the scene is about.
你知道，这就是我认为这个故事的主题。
You know, this is what I think the story is.
我知道这些问题是有明确答案的。
And I know that there are answers that there are unarguable answers to that.
故事的核心确实是这样，但当我们推进这些场景、设计走位、编排角色动作时，还有很多细节需要我们做出决定。
This is the story is about this, but there are but as we move through these scenes, as we move through the blocking, as we choreograph these characters, there's there's smaller things we have to make a decision on.
我想，到了人生这个阶段，我才终于明白过来。
And I guess ultimately, I'm realizing at this late age in life, I've decided.
我也有权对这场表演感到满意。
I have a right to be happy with this performance as well.
我也有权对这部电影感到满意。
And I have a right to be I have a right to be satisfied with this film.
我也有权对这部剧集感到满意。
I have a right to be satisfied with this show.
你的观点、你的满足感、你的幸福，导演先生或导演女士，并不是唯一重要的。
And your opinion, your satisfaction, your happiness, mister director, miss director, is not the only one that matters.
我此刻这样说，并没有任何敌意。
And I don't say that now with any animosity.
这是我逐渐意识到的，而且每个人似乎都对此感到满意。
It's a realization I've come to, and everyone seems to be happy with that.
媒体也对我争取自己的幸福表示理解。
News, they're cool with me fighting for my happiness as well.
大家都觉得这没问题。
Everyone's fine with that.
我这一生一直没意识到，原来这样是可以的。
I just went through a whole lifetime not realizing that that was cool.
是的。
Yeah.
在你职业生涯刚开始，以及2000年代中期事业开始腾飞时，你觉得人们期待你做什么？
What did you think people wanted from you starting out and in the middle two thousands when your career started taking off?
嗯，我的意思是，我一开始演的都是一些小角色、龙套。
Well, I mean, I started off doing like little roles, bit roles.
而且，你知道，我在这方面做得很好，因为我现在觉得，我有权利对自己的表演感到满意，而这种认知对我而言很便利，因为我现在有了更重要的角色。
And, you know I got good at doing those things because I felt like I'm saying I have the right to be happy with my performance now and that's largely convenient for me to come to that realization because I have larger roles.
当我演龙套时，我非常清楚，我的感受并不重要。
When I was doing bit parts it was very clear to me that my happiness wasn't important.
我只需要站准位置，别浪费资源，在大牌演员拍摄时，别拖后腿。
I had to hit my mark and not waste essentially, do my job while not taste wasting a take from the major players.
对。
Right.
所以如果史蒂夫·古腾堡，我从未和史蒂夫·古腾堡合作过。
So if Steve Gutenberg I've never worked with Steve Gutenberg.
如果史蒂夫·古腾堡表现得很好，或者更准确地说，如果帕梅拉·安德森在这场戏里演得出色，那么那个送花的小角色就不该把这场戏搞砸。
If Steve Gutenberg is given a good performance, flower or or rather if if Pamela Anderson is getting it right in this scene, flower delivery man guy should not fuck this scene up.
这就是我的生存之道。
And that's that was my method of survival.
就像，把事情做对。
Like, get it right.
我不在乎这感觉好不好。
I don't like, whether it feels good for me is irrelevant.
这对我来说是不是虚假的，也无关紧要。
Whether it's false for me is irrelevant.
重要的是我站对位置，别忘词。
What's relevant is I hit the mark and not forget my line.
之后，我开始在心里跟自己玩个小游戏，因为有时候你得拍三十条，而你唯一说的就是‘花到了’。
And then after that, I started playing a little game with myself internally because sometimes you'll do 30 takes and all you're saying is the flowers are here.
所以，我渐渐擅长于做出变化，让自己保持活力。
And so, like, I got good at just sort of giving variation and keeping myself alive.
于是就是‘花到了’。
So it was Flowers are here.
花到了。
Flowers are here.
那只是我一个人玩的游戏，一个独处时的游戏。
And I just that was a game I played with myself, the solitary game.
那简直就是我的自我表演学校，你知道的，反复在多个镜头中玩味那些微小的台词，只是为了不让我的大脑陷入麻木。
And that was sort of my self acting school, you know, playing with tiny lines over a number of takes just so that I my brain wouldn't fall asleep.
在《哈罗德与 Kumar》系列上映后，你有没有感受到什么？现在聊起这个，真的太奇怪了，因为它已经被神话化了。
Did you feel in the aftermath of Harold and Kumar in that series because it talking about it now, it's so bizarre because it has been mythologized.
它在某种程度上已经成为文化中一个极其重要的部分。
It has been become such a huge part of the culture in its own way.
在那之后，当你继续发展你的事业时，你有没有觉得更容易做自己了？不再只是一个临时演员，不再只是大机器中的附属角色，而是更……
Did you feel in the aftermath of that when you're continuing, know, your career that it became easier for you to be, I don't know, more yourself, more more less a day player, less an ancillary part in a big machine, and more
我不知道事后怎么样，但在拍那些电影的时候，我感觉非常有力量，因为我被赋予了参与叙事的权力。
You know, it's I don't know about afterwards, but during those movies, I felt very empowered and those when I started participating in the storytelling because I was empowered to do that.
主要是因为当时我更在意的是，‘这感觉对吗？’
Mostly through you know, at the time it was less, does this feel right?
而现在，我更多地会思考这个问题。
Which is more what I think about now.
这感觉真实吗？
Does it feel honest?
这感觉对吗？
Does it feel true?
当时对于这些电影来说，问题是哪个更搞笑？
And at the time it was, for those movies, it was what's funnier?
这又是另一种有趣的思维训练，就是看着一场戏，思考我们是否充分挖掘了其中的幽默感？
Which is another delightful mind exercise, just sort of looking at a scene and going, are we maximizing the humor from this?
所以这真的非常有趣。
And so that was really fun.
但我对《哈罗德与克umar》最深刻的记忆是，我现在会避免再看那些电影，因为每当它们在电视上播放时，我都没对任何人说过，但我感觉演正经角色对我来说特别困难。
But my main recollection of Harold and Kumar, I I would be I avoid watching those movies now is because, you know, when they come on TV because I've never said this to anyone, but I felt like it was really hard for me to play the straight man.
我不知道自己是否真的演对了，也不愿回头去看自己演得有多差，因为演正经角色真的很难，这些年来，每当我看到有人演得好的时候，都意识到这需要极大的克制和精准，而我当时并没有做到。
And I don't know if I ever got it right and I don't want to look back and see how wrong I got it but like playing the straight man is so hard and in the years since that movie like whenever I see someone do it right, it requires so much restraint and precision that I didn't have it.
你当时有这种感觉吗？
Did you feel that in the moment?
是的，我觉得这很难。
Yeah, I felt that it was tough.
对。
Yeah.
我当时就觉得这太难了。
I was like this is hard.
说来有趣，我和卡尔总是开玩笑说，我更像库玛，而他更像哈罗德。
Like it's funny, Cal and I always joke that I was more Kumar and he was more Harold.
这确实有道理，我本人更放得开一些。
And there was there's truth to that that I was the wilder one and As a person.
作为一个人。
As a person.
而卡尔基本上是个大书呆子。
And and Cal's basically a big old nerd.
你知道，但那真的挺搞笑的。
You know, but but it was really meme.
这更像不是角色上的问题。
It was more it wasn't like a character thing.
这是技巧上的问题。
It was a technique thing.
我当时想，我不太确定该怎么做好这个冷面搭档的角色。
It was like, I I'm not sure how best to do this straight man thing.
我本该去想想，我生活中有没有认识合适的冷面搭档。
I should have gone I wonder if I know a good straight man in my life.
我本该向他请教一下的。
I should have gotten some counsel from that.
但我从来没请过什么表演教练之类的人。
But I I've never had like an acting coach or anything like that.
而且我觉得我也想在电影里出彩。
And I think I also wanted to shine in the movie.
我想表现得有趣，但作为冷面搭档搞笑其实很难——现在我明白了，当我看到别人做得好的时候，我更加欣赏了，但当时我只是单纯地想搞笑。
I wanted to be funny, but it's hard like being funny as a straight man is actually now I I see I it is a much, when I see it done now, I appreciate it so much more, but I wanted to be funny funny.
而且，你知道，我觉得这反而成了阻碍。
And, you know, I think that got in the way.
这部电影对你的事业产生了你期望的效果吗？
Did the movie have the effect on your career that you wanted?
我想我不太清楚自己当时有没有什么期待。
I guess I I don't know how I thought if I had any expectations.
我当时的要求非常低，因为这是我的第一部作品，规模这么小又这么特别，我都不确定它能不能真正上映，你知道的。
My expectations at the time were super modest, like I was it was such a for the first one, it was so small and odd that I wasn't sure if it'd get really get released or not, you know.
你总能听到一些电影根本不会上映的故事。
You hear stories about movies never coming out.
你知道，我作为观众的生活就是到处去百视达租碟，看一些奇怪的电影。
You know, I my life was like, you know, as a consumer was roaming blockbuster and seeing odd movies.
我不记得这部瑞恩·菲利普的电影当初是在影院上映的。
Like, I don't remember this coming out in the theater, this Ryan Phillipie movie.
这是什么？
What is this?
我已经很久没有想过他了。
I have not thought about him in a long time.
一下子让我回到了百视达的时代。
Just was thrown back to blockbuster days.
所以即使在我们拍完电影之后，它看起来依然很危险。
So it seemed like dangerous even then after after we'd shot the movie.
你知道，一个亚裔和印度裔的演员似乎没什么前途。
And you know, an Asian and Indian guy didn't seem like it would amount to much.
我们在影院的票房表现并不好，但它却一直留存下来，似乎成为了文化的一部分。
And we didn't do well theatrically, but it just sort of hung around and became part of culture it seemed like.
是的。
Right.
随着时间推移。
Over time.
随着时间推移。
Over time.
我觉得你们俩是这部电影的主角，这一点很重要。
I think the fact that you two were the stars of the movie Yeah.
这促使人们发现这部电影，并觉得：哦，这和我们平时看到的不一样。
Contributed to people finding it and being like, oh, this is not this is not what we normally see.
通常确实是这样。
Usually Right.
那种关于朋友和吸大麻的电影，通常都是两个白人小伙子的故事。
The the movie about friend and smoking weed is like two white guys is is how it usually goes.
完全正确。
Totally.
对我来说，这是一件我可以指出来的事情，即使人们理解了这一点，他们可能也没意识到，这种差异能在长期内极大地让你的产品脱颖而出。
It it was to me like it is a is a thing that I point to, and I don't think people understand even even if they understand it, which is difference can differentiate your product in a really tremendous way over time.
它能让你与众不同。
Like, it can distinguish you.
在那场院线放映之后，如果我们是两个白人小伙子，我不知道是否还有人记得，但后来他们就会去租来看。
After that theatrical run, If We Were Two White Guys, I don't know if anyone remembers it clicks and then they rent it.
这种情况没有像我们那样在之后发生。
It doesn't happen later on that in the way that it happened for us.
这太不寻常了。
It's like it was so unusual.
我认为还残留着一些记忆，当人们在电视上看到它时，会觉得：我得去看看，因为我们太不一样了，这就是我们的优势。
I think there was this residue of memory and people when they saw it on TV, it was like, I gotta check this out because we were so different and that's the edge.
对。
Right.
你知道，自从这部电影上映后，随着你继续你的职业生涯，我读到很多采访中经常有人问你：亚裔美国人在电影中的位置在哪里？
You know, since the film's release and and then as you continued in your career, I had read in a lot of interviews this question that's often posed to you, which is what's the place and and where are the Asian Americans in movies?
为什么会出现这种缺失？几年前，也许一年半前，你曾说过这样的话。
Why is there a lack of and you said this thing a couple years ago, maybe maybe a year and a half ago.
你说：我不确定我如此频繁地思考我的社群对我自己是否健康。
You said, I don't know how healthy it is for me to think about my community as much as I do.
这问题其实是在问：你对亚裔美国人究竟该做些什么，或者你有什么责任？
And that was the question of about, you know, what are you supposed to do or what is your obligation to Asian Americans Right.
在电影和电视中。
In film and television.
我不想问你关于多样性的问题。
And I don't wanna ask you a question about diversity.
我不是不感兴趣。
Not that I'm not interested
是的。
Yeah.
但我觉得你已经回答过了。
But I think you've answered it.
这更像是关于你的——我不知道，比如你的精神层面。
It's more of a question of of your, I don't know, like, spirit.
比如，这对你来说意味着什么？
Like, what what does it do for you?
不断面对这个问题和这个想法，对你来说意味着什么？
What does it mean to you to have to grapple with that question and that idea constantly?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我对这件事有很多矛盾的想法。
I mean, I have a lot of conflicting thoughts about it.
一方面，你知道，这对我来说很重要，因为小时候在休斯顿，我看到电视上出现亚洲家仆或者功夫大师，那几乎就是全部了。
On the one hand, you know, it is something that is important to me because, you know, I felt like as a kid in Houston and then seeing it it did contribute to my idea of of self seeing kind of Asian house boys on the television or kung fu masters and that was sort of it.
然后你就想，好吧。
And you go, okay.
那一定就是我是谁，或者电视在告诉我这些。
Well, that must be who I am or that if the the TV is telling me.
所以我意识到，我在片场所演绎的这些角色，正在被其他亚裔男孩和女孩们观看。
So I realized that things that I that these performances I do on these sets are being broadcast to people, to young Asian boys and girls also.
因此，我首先不想做任何让他们感到羞耻的事情。
And and so I wanted to I didn't wanna do anything that was embarrassing to them, first and foremost.
所以，我理解这一点。
And so that so I get it.
但另一方面，我不确定艺术家是否应该想这么多。
And on the other hand, like, I don't know that it's right for an artist to think about that so much.
我们不是政治家。
We're not politicians.
我们也不是社区活动家。
We're not community activists.
说起来真有意思，老兄。
We're it's funny, man.
我记得当我认识这些演员时，他们都是搞戏剧的。
You know, I remember as I got to know all these actors when I was in in they were these theater people.
他们中的很多人，基本上都是离家出走的孩子。
So many of them were, like, basically runaways.
你知道吗？
You know?
他们年纪较大，很多是同性恋，想投身戏剧，却有着破碎的家庭背景，因为他们想做一件被看作不光彩又荒唐的事。
They were older, many gay who wanted to be in the theater and had sort of fractured family histories because they wanted to do this thing that was seen as so dishonorable and so ridiculous.
如果我对此有误解，我向所有听众道歉，但结果是，他们形成了一种更强大的艺术家家庭。
And I apologize if I'm mischaracterizing this, anyone who's listening, but, you know, as a result, they had formed a second stronger family of artists.
一种替代家庭。
And A surrogate family.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为，在某种程度上，我们注定要成为这个体系之外的局外人，脱离这种被塑造的表象，我们就是那些怪人。
So I think to some extent we're supposed to be outcasts outside of that system, outside of this representation and how we're seen and we're supposed to be the weirdos.
所以我对这两种冲动都有同等强烈的感受。
So I do have both those impulses in equal measure.
因此，我认为最终我会对这种状态产生怨恨，但这同样也不健康。
So I think the ultimate thing is then I just become resentful of that, which is not healthy either.
但我正在慢慢理清思路，就像你所说，那是一年半以前的事了。
But I'm figuring it out, I do think, like you said it was a year and a half ago.
我敢打赌，那件事可能发生在唐纳德·特朗普当选之前，而且是在《哥伦布》宣传期间。
I I I would bet that that might have happened before the election of Donald Trump, and It it was in the promotion of Columbus.
所以我不确定这是否正好发生在那个时候。
So I don't know if that's Oh, that was right at the time.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以那是在之后不久。
So it was right after
是在美国国家公共电台播出的。
It was on NPR.
你知道，就我与表征的关系而言，我会说，基于这个国家正在发生的事情，我正在重新思考这个问题。
You know, I would say in terms of like my relationship to representation, I would say I'm really rethinking that in light of what's going on in this country.
你提到了怨恨。
You mentioned resentment.
这种怨恨针对的是什么？
What is the resentment of?
这种怨恨主要针对我的自身社群，比如你不该看我，你应该去看商业领袖、医生和律师，但我也逐渐接受了这一点的重要性。
It's primarily towards like, it's toward my own community, like you shouldn't look to me, you should look to you shouldn't look to actors, you should look to business leaders or doctors and lawyers and, you know but I've also come to accept that that's important.
我想我之前没有意识到，这是一种自我厌恶，我不觉得自己怎么样，但我也觉得，这种怨恨是针对主流体制的，因为像我们这样的人太少了，这不公平。
That I guess I didn't It's self loathing, I didn't feel like But I also feel like, you know, it's to the mainstream apparatus, resentment towards the mainstream apparatus, because I'm like, There's so few of us, this is unfair.
你知道，白人也把这种压力强加给我，我不想要这样，我只是想做个演员，所以这种压力来自方方面面。
Know, because white people put that on me too, you know, like, and I don't want it, you know, I just want to be an actor, and, so You know, it's from all sides.
这并不是在自怜，但让我感到不舒服的是，我之前跟你说过，我花了很长时间才学会为自己的表演争取幸福。
It's not a woe is me situation, but it does feel like the thing that I don't like about it is I told you earlier that it took me a long time to advocate for my happiness with my performance.
多年来，我主要考虑的是：这是否在避免刻板印象？
And I think for years, was like my primary things were, is this like avoiding a stereotype?
这是否是一个好角色？
Is this a good role?
在我职业生涯的早期阶段，我确实有这样的想法。
I had this, you know, during, I would say, the early part of my career.
我总是能很容易地拒绝那些非常明显的刻板印象。
I always, like, could say no very easily to very outright stereotypes.
然后，有些角色出现了，我不确定这是否是一种刻板印象。
And then, like, things came along, and I wasn't sure if this was a stereotype or not.
有很多模糊的、半刻板的角色，我经常收到这类角色的试镜邀请。
It was like there's a lot of, like, shady half stereotype roles that I would that that that I would get auditions for.
我会打电话给我的亚裔美国朋友，组成一个亚洲男性顾问团，然后问他们：你觉得怎么样？
And I would go to I would call like the Asian male council of my friends who are Asian American, and I would say, what do you you just okay.
我要描述一个角色。
I'm gonna describe a role.
我要描述一下《实习医生格蕾》里的一个角色。
I'm gonna just I'm gonna describe a role on Grey's Anatomy.
明白吗？
Alright?
你告诉我，你觉得我该不该说：我演过《实习医生格蕾》，虽然这不是真实例子，但我会说，这是个医生。
You let me know whether you think I should say I was on Grey's Anatomy, and this is not a real example, but, you know, I'd say this is Doctor.
金医生进来了，你觉得这听起来有冒犯性吗？
Kim goes into I would say does that sound insulting to you or not?
一个半刻板印象的例子是，不知为何，这在九十年代末或两千年初曾是一种现象。
An example of a half stereotype thing would be like, oh, for some reason, this this was like a thing back in the late nineties or early two thousands.
亚裔男性扮演黑人。
Asian guys acting black.
那是什么？
What is that?
比如一个亚裔男性表现得非常街头，你知道的，这是为了搞笑，为了喜剧效果，而且
Like an Asian guy who acts real hood, you know, and it's for comedy, for comedic effect, and
你几乎说不出‘喜剧’这个词。
You could barely say the word comedy there.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这本来是 supposed to be funny。
And so that was supposed to be funny.
这种情况经常发生。
And that happened a lot.
我记得当时问过，好吧，这并不是一个功夫大师。
And I remember asking, like, okay, so it's not a kung fu master.
这是不是说，我想要的是钱。
Is this you know, and I wanted the dollars.
我想要的是认可。
I wanted the credit.
像这样，我能蒙混过关吗？
Like, can I get away with this?
这可以吗？
Is this cool?
还是不可以？
Or is it not?
你知道的吧？
You know?
即使那时，我还记得自己在想，什么？
And and even then, I remember going, what?
我得做这种事，这太荒谬了。
This is ridiculous that I have to do this.
你知道的。
You know?
你不得不遵守不同的规则，这太不公平了。
So Unfair that you have to play by different rules.
我觉得有色人种演员和亚裔演员身上背负着更多东西。
I felt that there was more on actors of color and Asian actors.
我只是觉得，一个23岁的年轻人竟然得考虑这些，实在太艰难了。
I just thought that was tough that, you know, a 23 year old has to think about that.
我本该只是喝酒、约会、放松而已。
I'm just supposed to be I'm supposed to be getting drunk and getting laid.
对吧。
Right.
你知道的。
You know?
所以
So
标准的23岁年轻人该做的事。
Standard 23 year old stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这样不对。
I felt like this is not it's not right.
这干扰了我放纵的权利。
This is interfering with my right to be irresponsible.
我与生俱来的美国式当混蛋的权利。
My inalienable American right to be a dickhead.
太好了。
Great.
你有当上混蛋吗？
Were you able to be a dickhead?
当然。
Sure.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我确实是个混蛋。
I was I was a dickhead.
但你知道，在我的职业生涯中，我觉得幸运的是，我最近反思了这个问题：我到底是怎么挺过来的？
But, you know, in my professional life, felt like, you know, thankfully, I've reflected on this recently, how did I make it through?
我怎么在没毁掉一切、没烧断所有桥梁的情况下活到了45岁？
How did I become 45 without burning bridges and ruining everything?
这简直是个小小的奇迹。
It's a small miracle.
对。
Right.
你知道吧？
You know?
因为那样的话，你其实只有一个地方可去。
Because then you go there's only one place, really.
如果我是个理发师，我可以在毁掉职业关系后，拿起剪刀去下一个镇子。
It's like if I was a hairdresser, I could pick up my scissors and go to the next town after I'd burned my professional relationships.
但在这个行业里，你真的做不到。
But you really can't in this profession.
你无处可逃。
You're stuck.
我在这里待了很久，能没对任何人破口大骂，没醉醺醺地去片场，没毁掉自己的名声，这简直是个小小的奇迹。
And I've been here for a long time, and it's it's it's a little bit of a miracle that I didn't cuss anybody out or, you know, come drunk to set or whatever and ruined my reputation.
是什么支撑着你走过来的？
What has carried you forward?
你知道的，这是一份工作，你尊重它，我意识到自己擅长的一件事——我认为所有演员都必须擅长这一点。
You know, it's a job and you respect it and I realized one thing that I'm good at which I think all actors have to be good at is this.
你必须能够集中注意力，哪怕只是短暂的片刻，尤其是在电影表演中。
You have to be able to concentrate in short bursts or at least in film acting.
你必须全神贯注，不能分心。
You have to really focus and you can't be distracted.
你得在几次拍摄中保持专注。
You gotta focus for a certain number of takes.
而且在很短的时间内，你必须保持极高的表演水准和高效的状态。
And it has to be a very high level of performance and fun high level of functioning for a short amount of time.
有些人天生就是纯种马或阿拉伯马，你知道吧？
And certain people are you're either a mustang or a thoroughbred, you know?
我认为，演员总体上都是纯种马，他们能飞速跑完四分之一英里。
And actors, I think, by and large are Mustangs, and they can do a quarter mile really fast.
你得一次次跑完四分之一英里。
And you have to do quarter miles.
而有些人则是马拉松选手，你知道吧？
And some people are marathoners, you know?
我跳过了几个比喻，但有些人就是更擅长长距离任务，而这正是演员在真正工作中表现糟糕的原因。
I'm jumping I'm jumping analogies, but some people are just better at long distance stuff, and that's what makes actors terrible at real jobs.
他们无法朝九晚五地持续做工作，连续八小时坐在办公桌前。
They can't go nine to five and just keep doing their work, their desk work for eight hours.
我觉得演员可能会说：咱们干到上午十一点吧。
I think actors would be like, let's go nine to eleven.
九点到十一点。
Nine to eleven.
我一样能把所有活儿干完。
I'll get all the same work done.
午饭前我就走人了。
Before lunch, I'm out.
午饭前。
Before lunch.
我早就走了。
I I got out.
所以我认为自己擅长在一段时间内高度集中注意力，然后就退出了。
And so I I think I was good at focusing really hard for a certain amount of time, and then I'm out.
是的。
Yeah.
但之后我又可以重新集中，但这是一种能力。
But and then and then I can refocus, but that's a skill.
你知道吗，你去年说过，多年来我有时甚至违背自己的意愿，一直在思考我应该成为怎样的儿子。
You know, you you said, this is also last year, that I've thought for years sometimes against my will about what kind of son I'm supposed to be.
这涉及到哥伦布，以及你如何理解自己在其中的角色。
This is about Columbus and how you relate to your character in that.
作为韩国人，这是一个特别敏感的问题。
Being Korean, that's a particularly charged question.
你的责任是属于你的文化，还是属于你的父母？
Is your duty to your culture or to your parent?
你的人生是你自己的，还是你父母生命的延续？
Is your life your own or the second half of your parents' life?
谁拥有你的生活？
Who owns your life?
也许对某些人来说答案显而易见，但对我和珍来说并非如此。
Maybe the answers are obvious to some people, but not to me and not to Jen.
我甚至不需要刻意去思考如何产生共鸣。
I didn't even have to try and think about relating.
它就摆在那儿。
It was right there.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，我们这些移民经常被告诉：我们来这里是为了你。
You know, we're told immigrants, lots of immigrants are told, we came here for you.
他们对子女这样说。
They tell their children this.
他们会对六岁的孩子这样说。
They tell their six year old children this.
我常常觉得，他们真正想表达的是：我拥有你。
And I've often thought that that was What they're saying is, I own you.
这是一种阴暗的解读，但他们的意思是：我为你付出了，你的责任就是为我过一种体面的生活。
And this is a sinister interpretation, but I did this, your end of the bargain is to live a respectable life for me.
这种观念对我人生的支撑如此强烈，就像我跟你说的，我45岁了，现在才开始思考自己工作的幸福。
And that was so strong, was such a strong mental scaffolding for my life that like I told you, I'm 45 and I'm starting to only think about only think now about my own happiness with my work.
因此，对我来说，最容易想的就是我为别人做了什么。
So it's the easiest thing for me to think of what I do for somebody else.
一开始是父母，然后是妻子，接着是孩子。
First it was my parents and then it was my wife and then it was my children.
所以一切都在围绕着他们。
And so it's all about them.
而更难的问题是，问问自己：什么让你快乐？
And the much more difficult thing is to ask myself what makes you happy?
你真正想要的是什么？
What do you want?
我太不习惯思考这个问题了，以至于我真的没有任何答案。
I'm so unaccustomed to thinking about that that I really have any answers.
我的意思是，我甚至不知道，有时候我去开会，有人会问：如果你能拍一部电影，你会拍什么？我一直想的是我能拍出什么样的作品？
Mean, I don't even You know, sometimes I'll go into a meeting and somebody will say, What do you wanna do if you What movie would you make if you I've always thought about like what could I make?
我能突破哪些界限？
What could I get away with?
但我并不习惯思考，如果我有1000万美元来拍一部电影，我会做什么。
But I'm not accustomed to thinking about what I would do if I had $10,000,000 to make a movie.
就像，我不知道。
Like, I don't know.
在这个年纪，想到这些问题对你来说很可怕吗？
Is it scary for you to think about that at this age?
关于什么能让你快乐这个想法？
The idea of what makes you happy?
你知道吗，这正变得越来越容易，我来告诉你为什么：因为随着我的自我认同发生变化，我越来越能接受自己大部分身份是父亲和丈夫。
You know, it's getting a little easier and I'll tell you why because as my self identity moves, I'm more comfortable with the majority of my identity being a dad and a husband.
我对工作的重视程度可以稍微降低一些，对此我感到很高兴。
The importance that I put on work can diminish a little bit and I'm happy with that.
所以它不再像我年轻时那样有那么大的分量了。
So it doesn't have the weight that it did when I was younger.
它就在那里，就这么回事。
It's going, it's a thing.
在某些方面，我的工作——如果你能称之为职业的话——是存在于我之外的东西，它不是我本身；而以前我投身其中时，觉得它就是我，但现在我感觉没那么强烈了。
In some ways like my work or my career if you can call it that is a thing that exists outside of me and it's not me whereas before I was working on it and felt that it was me and I feel less less so I feel that less so now.
那你对当父亲怎么看？
And what do you make of being a father?
我对当父亲怎么看？
What do I make of being a father?
我的意思是，我爱它，我喜欢看他们成长。
Well, I mean I love it, and I do like, they're I enjoy watching them.
我问这个问题是有特定原因的，我跟你实话实说。
You know, I asked that for a specific reason, I'll be honest with you.
说吧。
Go.
是的。
Yeah.
我爸爸，你知道，我爸爸那边的家人来自墨西哥。
My dad, you know, my dad's side of the family were from Mexico.
我祖父作为父亲，总是给我讲那些严厉又冷漠的故事，他们没什么钱，他也没有太多美好的回忆。
And my grandfather, as a father to him, he always told me these stories of being harsh and cold and they didn't have a lot of they don't have a he doesn't have a lot of great memories Mhmm.
关于他们关系亲密的回忆。
Of them being close.
而作为移民，他是非法来到这里的，我爸爸则是所谓的‘锚定婴儿’。
And that was the way as an immigrant is is that he came here illegally, and and my dad was the the product of, like, an anchor baby.
而他过着与我爸爸后来截然不同的生活。
And then they he led a different life than my dad would later lead.
因此，他小时候经常对我说：我不想成为我父亲那样的父亲。
And as a result, he often said to me as a kid, you know, I don't want to be the same kind of father that my dad was to me.
事实上，他走的是完全相反的方向，是的。
In fact, he went in the opposite direction Yeah.
那就是，我该如何最好地成为这个孩子的朋友，在任何方面都支持他？
Which was like, how can I best be this kid's friend and be there for him in any way?
在运动、学业、情感上，任何方面都如此。
In sports, academics, emotionally, anything.
你知道，父母的行为会影响我们如何为人父母，但我总是对他能走上与他父亲完全相反的道路感到非常有趣。
And, you know, our parents inform how we're going to parent, but I always find it fascinating how he went in the opposite direction of his dad.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，在为人父母的过程中，你一直在不断反思自己的童年。
There I think that there's a very, there's a constant evaluation of your own childhood while you're parenting.
我曾经以为某些事情是不可避免的，但现在我发现，那些其实都是选择。
There are things that I had always assumed were inevitable, which I have now discovered are choices.
当你在见证另一个生命成长时，不断挖掘自己的人生经历，这真是一件奇怪的事。
So there's a constant excavation of one's own life while you're witnessing another life, it is a strange thing.
对我来说，这几乎是每天都会发生的事，对吧。
It's almost daily for me Right.
我会想，这个不一样，或者这个一样，这个很相似。
That I go, oh, that this is different or this is the same, this is similar.
我的意思是，很多方面是不同的基因决定的。
I mean, lot of it is different genetics.
我的意思是，孩子就是他们本来的样子，从他们出生的那一刻起似乎就是这样。
I mean, like, children are who they are, it appears to me, as they come when they come out of the womb.
有些东西是你无法塑造的。
There are things that you can't shape.
对我来说，最主要的任务是让他们感到安全和有保障，这样他们才能成为他们本该成为的人。
There's very little to me, the primary job is to make them safe and to make them feel secure so that they can be who they're supposed to be.
但塑造他们的想法就像一种幻想。
But the idea of molding them is like a fantasy.
在我看来，他们就是他们本来的样子。
Like, they they seem to me they they are who they are.
但，是的，我想举一个我反思过的例子，那就是我在代际之间注意到的一个差异：我父母的生活是以恐惧为出发点的。
But, yeah, I mean, there's I've just I'll give you one example that I reflected on, which is one difference that I was thinking about in the generations is, you know, my dad and mom operated from a sense of fear.
恐惧是他们生活的指导原则。
Like, that was the guiding principle of their life, is fear.
我这样说并不是要贬低他们，毕竟他们一直面临经济困境，身处异国他乡，这些都很自然；但我知道，我的孩子们没有这种恐惧，这种心态让他们拥有完全不同的生活体验。
And I don't mean it to disparage them that I felt it is natural that they were in constant financial trouble and they were in a new land and all this stuff, but, you know, I see that my kids don't have that fear, and it is a completely different existence for them, that one principle.
我之所以想到这一点，是因为当我儿子还小的时候，他走路时似乎完全没有我当年那种对成人的畏惧。
I was just thinking about that because, you know, my my son when I when my son was young, I younger, he would walk around and he didn't seem to have this fear of adults that I had.
而我，直到现在某种程度上仍然如此。
I and to some extent, still do.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对成年人的恐惧。
You know, fear of grown ups.
我曾想过，这是否与我作为演员的身份有关，因为每次我们外出时，人们都会跟我握手、击掌之类的。
And I wondered whether I did wonder whether that was part of, like, his dad being an actor because whenever we went out, people would shake my hand or give me a high five or something.
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