完整访谈：苹果高管揭秘苹果如何打造真正获胜的产品

好了，不多说了，我们有埃迪·库在Restream灯光室。

Well, without further ado, we have Eddy Cue in the Restream Lighting Room.

让我们把他请进来，埃迪。

Let's bring him in Eddie.

TBPN UltraDome。

The TBPN UltraDome.

埃迪，你最近怎么样？

Eddie, how are you doing?

最近怎么样？

What's going on?

终于能来到这里，真是太好了。

It's great finally to be here.

非常感谢你们。

I've Thank you so much.

我一直想上这个节目。

Wanted to be on this show.

我得告诉你，朋友们发给我的短信，包括我孩子的消息，数量比我以往任何经历都多。

And I gotta tell you, I I've gotten more text messages from friends about being on here including my kids than probably anything I've ever done.

所以你能邀请我来，我真的非常高兴。

So it's it's great for you to have me.

这太棒了。

That's amazing.

而且这是一个特别的时刻。

And what and what a a special moment.

多么美好的时光啊。

What an amazing time.

我真想先从一些回顾开始。

I would love to just start with some reflection.

我特别想听听你在苹果的头十年经历。

I want to hear particularly about your first decade at Apple.

那段时间是什么样的？是什么让你加入了这家公司？

What was that like leading what led you to the company?

你最早参与了哪些项目？

What were some of the first projects you worked on?

能不能给我们讲讲早期的一些历史？

Sort of take us through some of the early history.

是的。

Yeah.

我很幸运。

I was lucky.

苹果II发布的时候，我还在上高中，当时我想当一名建筑师。

I was I was a junior in high school when the Apple II was out, and I wanted to be an architect.

但当我接触到电脑后，我意识到我想成为一名程序员和工程师。

And when I discovered a computer, I realized I wanted to be a programmer and engineer.

我当时就决定有两件事我想做。

And I said there's two things I wanna do.

我想去苹果工作，还想见到史蒂夫·乔布斯。

I wanna work at Apple and I wanna meet Steve Jobs.

哇。

Wow.

梦想成真了。

And dreams come true.

三十八年后的今天，我就在苹果公司。

Here I am thirty eight years later at Apple.

我最初以程序员的身份加入，负责开发HyperCard以及类似带下划线链接的前身技术。

I came in as a programmer and was working on HyperCard and sort of the precursor to blue links with lines underneath the linking.

我在苹果做了很多不同的事情。

And I've been done so many things here at Apple.

我拥有一个出色的团队，至今仍在与世界上最好的人才共事。

I've had a amazing team and continue to have the the I'm working with the best people in the world at what they do.

是的。

Yeah.

你第一次听说史蒂夫·乔布斯时，他对你的印象是怎样的？

What was the lore of Steve Jobs like when you first sort of heard about him?

因为，你知道，我们这一代人都知道，比如iPhone的发布会。

Because, you know, my generation knows, like, the iPhone Keynote.

网上有视频。

There's videos online.

也有采访。

There's interviews.

还有整整一系列书籍。

There's the whole books.

已经出版了多本相关书籍。

There's multiple books written.

但你当时学习时的体验是怎样的？

But what was your experience learning?

你职业生涯早期是什么吸引你关注乔布斯的？

What drew you to Steve early on in your career?

我只是觉得，正是这些产品的创新让人们能够完成令人惊叹的事情。

I just think it's it's the innovation of creating these products that let people do amazing things.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

当我使用这些产品时，我也感受到了这一点。

And I felt that way when I was using the product.

这些产品的细节处理非常到位，你能真切地感受到一种连接。

The attention to detail of those products, there was a connection that you could just feel.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这不仅仅是你能看到的东西。

And so it was more than just what you could see.

它让我能够去做一些我以前根本想象不到的事情。

And and then it let me do things that I couldn't imagine doing before.

我认为，这一点在我们五十年的发展中一直延续了下来。

And I think that's something that we've continued over our fifty years.

对。

Yeah.

你能谈谈最初的苹果在线商店的发布吗？

Can you talk about the launch of the of the original Apple online store?

我觉得很多人以为这个一直存在。

I feel like a lot of people assume that this always existed.

我肯定，这是一项艰巨的努力。

Now it was a Herculean effort, I'm sure.

灵感来自哪里？

What was the inspiration?

当时的背景是什么？

What was the the backdrop there?

进入这个市场时，氛围如何？

What was the mood like as you entered into that market?

是的。

Yeah.

那是个疯狂的时期，因为人们忘了，那时候我们的电脑都是通过CompUSA和本地电脑商店等渠道销售的。

It was a crazy time because people forget, but in those times, we sold all of our computers through channels like CompUSA and and local computer stores.

而且，建立在线商店并直接销售的想法，当时苹果内部也有很多人认为，如果我们这么做，渠道合作伙伴会离我们而去，不再销售我们的产品。

And and the idea of building an online store and selling direct, there were a lot of people inside of Apple even that felt like if we did that, the channel's gonna walk on us and they're gonna stop selling.

但史蒂夫和我们都希望推进这件事，让顾客能够自定义配置，订购他们真正想要的电脑。

And Steve and and we wanted to to move forward and and be able to do custom configurations so people could order exactly what they wanted.

是的。

Yeah.

我们认为，这是顾客真正想要的东西，虽然当时还只是刚刚起步。

And we thought it was something that customers, you know, it it was just beginning, but it was something that customers really wanted.

于是，史蒂夫、我和一个小团队一起开发并推出了这个商店，就在我们有史以来最出色的产品之一——iMac发布的同时。

And Steve and I and a small team worked on it and and built it and launched it at the same time that one of our, you know, best products we've ever done was the iMac.

对。

Yeah.

就是那种水蓝色、半透明的款式。

The Bondi Blue one with the clear.

所以我们同时推出了在线商店和水蓝色的iMac。

And so we launched the the store and the the Bondi Blue iMac at the same time.

我记得那天结束时，我们都在想，史蒂夫，我去他办公室，他问：‘我们第一天表现怎么样？’

And I remember at the end of the day, we were wondering, you know, Steve, I came by his office, he's like, well, how did we do on the first day?

我们当天卖出了价值一百万美元的iMac，大家互相击掌庆祝，觉得这太棒了。

And we had sold a million dollars worth of, IMAX and we were high fiving each other and going, this is amazing.

怎么

How

你们是怎么吸引人们来访问的？

did you drive people to the wait.

你们只是靠apple.com吗？

Did you just have apple.com?

人们已经会主动输入apple.com了吗？

Were people already typing in apple.com?

在社交媒体还没开始病毒传播、也不能做现场采访的情况下，你们怎么告诉大家一个网站要上线了？你们是怎么推广的？

Like, how do you tell people that a website is launching before you can go viral on social media or do live interviews on, you know, how do you promote this?

是的。

Yeah.

我们很幸运，因为当时已经有了apple.com。

We were lucky in that we had apple.com already.

是的。

Yeah.

所以有些人是从那里来的。

And so some people were coming from that.

因此，那部分要容易一点。

And and so it was was that part was a little bit easier.

在那个年代，你很大程度上依赖于媒体采访和印刷媒体。

And in those days, you relied a lot on on press interviews and print.

当然。

Sure.

所以我们做了很多

And so we we did a lot of

好的。

Okay.

你知道，

You know,

你当然想登上杂志封面，对吧？

you'd you'd wanna be on the cover of, you know, a magazine and Sure.

还有报纸的头版。

And the front page of the newspaper.

所以我们当时都有了这些，而且我认为我们在做这个的时候，采用的是‘好、更好、最好’的策略。

And so we had all of that pretty And I think our design, when we did this, it was called good, better, best.

你可以购买不同的配置并进行更改。

You could buy different configs and and change them.

但在当时，我们为购物和购买Mac电脑所设计的体验，是前所未有的。

But our design for shopping for a computer and a Mac at that time was something no one had ever seen.

它包含了我们重视的所有元素：简洁、结账极其方便、购买简单，以及所有你在其他网站上难以找到的规格和问题解答。

It was it had all of the things that we cared about, the simplicity, really easy to check out, easy to buy, all of the the the specs and the questions you would have, things that were difficult when you went to other sites.

我觉得我们做得非常出色，而且确实引起了客户的共鸣。

I thought we did a great job and it really resonated with customers.

是的

Yeah.

你能帮我理解一下吗？苹果的服务部门规模巨大。

Can you help me understand, like the services division of Apple is massive.

它是一个巨大的增长引擎。

It's a huge growth engine.

那里面有很多有趣的部分。

There's so many interesting pieces of that.

我想深入探讨其中很多内容。

I want to go into a lot of those.

但在你的职业生涯中，第一次意识到你可以销售或转化为业务线、而非实体产品、并属于服务类别的东西是什么时候？

But when was the first time in your career that you realized that there was something that you could sell or actually turn into a business line that was not a physical product and would live in this services category?

服务什么时候在苹果成为了一个部门、概念或机会？

When did services even become like a division or concept or an opportunity at Apple?

是的

Yeah.

我认为我们最初只是当个爱好。

I think we started as a hobby.

你知道，那时候没什么东西。

You know, there wasn't a lot there.

是的。

Yeah.

那是互联网的早期阶段，我们做的是电子邮件和类似群体存储之类的事情。

It was very early days of the Internet and doing things like email and things like storage in the crowd.

但那真的是非常非常早的时候。

But it was very, very early.

对我们来说，一个重大的转变其实是音乐。

The thing that was a big change for us was really music.

是的。

Yeah.

那就是iPod加上iTunes。

And it was iPod plus iTunes.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这真正彻底改变了音乐产业，让我们对服务有了全新的认识——当你把硬件产品、操作系统、软件和服务整合在一起时，这种能力是前所未有的，我认为我们在这一点上做得比任何人都好，是的。

And that was something that was it truly revolutionized music and it really gave us a whole different perspective of what services can do when you take the hardware product, in a sense the operating system and the software and the services, and you tie them together, which is something I think we do better than anyone Yeah.

当我们推出iPod加iTunes时，这真正得到了体现。

It really showcased when we did iPod plus iTunes.

于是，我们突然就做到了。

And so all of a sudden, we did that.

我们不仅为Mac做了这件事，也为Windows做了。

Not only did we do it for the Mac, but we also did it for Windows.

是的。

Yeah.

这使苹果接触到了一群从未使用过我们产品的全新客户群体。

And so it opened Apple to a whole new ecosystem of customers that had never used our products before

是的。

Yeah.

但那时我们第一次使用iTunes和iPod。

But were using iTunes and iPod for the first time.

我第一次接触Apple的经历就是用iTunes和iPod在一台

That was my first Apple experience was iTunes and iPod on on a

Windows上，是的。

Windows Yeah.

现在我有25个应用了。

And now I have 25 apps.

我最初对Apple产品非常忠诚，是的。

My my first is I was so I was so loyal to Apple products Yeah.

所以我拒绝玩任何PC游戏，我大概推完了300款足球游戏，只为把那台顶配的MacBook Pro用到极致，是的。

That I refused to get a game like a PC for So I worked I probably ref like 300 soccer games like absurd amount to get the maxed out MacBook Pro Yeah.

当时。

At the time.

太棒了。

That's amazing.

因为我太忠诚了，所以我心想，我不能，如果我要

Because I was just so so loyal that I was like, I'm not I've gotta I've if I'm

你必须坚持

You gotta stay

在生态里。

in egress.

玩视频游戏，我就要在Mac上玩。

Play video games, I'm gonna do it on on Mac.

是的。

Yeah.

这太棒了。

That's great.

你知道吗，当我们把iTunes推出到Windows平台时，我记得我们做了一个海报，史蒂夫在演示中提到了它。

You know, when we launched when we launched iTunes on Windows, I remember we did a a poster and and Steve called it on the presentation.

就像是地狱结冰了。

It was like hell froze over.

当初推出 iTunes 的过程究竟是怎样的？

What what was actually getting iTunes off the ground like?

它和苹果之前开发的其他产品有什么不同？

And how was it different than the other just motions that Apple had developed?

因为它不仅仅是一个软件产品，还深度关联着版权方、机构和音乐人，你需要说服这么多不同的群体。

Because it's not only a software product, but it's deeply linked to rights holders and agencies and musicians and you have to get so many different groups.

这感觉比单纯制造并销售一台电脑要多得多的授权和审批。

Feels much more permissioned than just building a computer and selling it.

当然，造电脑也需要制造商和大量人员参与，但这是完全不同的市场推广或开发模式。

Of course, need manufacturers and you need a lot of people on board to build a computer, but it's a very different go to market or building motion.

那具体有什么不同呢？

Like, how was that different?

是的。

Yeah.

这过程很痛苦，因为我觉得有三个关键部分。

It was painful because I think there were three three pieces.

你有我们，有唱片公司，还有艺人。

You had us, you had the label, and you had the artist.

是的。

Yeah.

我们和艺人关系很好。

We were really good with artists.

所以，好吧。

So Okay.

这一直是我们关注的核心：创作者。

Which is something we've always been about, the creators.

我认为，当我们回顾我们所做的一切时，我们最关注的两类人就是最终用户和那些创作出这些精彩作品的创作者。

And I think when we look when you look at all the things that we've done, the two primary people that we focus on and think about are people that are the end customers that are using it and the and the creators that are creating all these incredible products.

当时，我们和音乐人关系不错，但和唱片公司几乎没有联系。

So we had a good relationship with musicians at the time, but we really didn't have any relationship with labels.

而最终，是他们掌控着整个环境。

And and ultimately, they did control the environment.

当时，他们的观点不同。

And at the time, they had a different perspective.

你知道，那正是Napster和盗版的开端。

You know, it was really the beginning of Napster and piracy.

是的。

Yeah.

他们没有考虑如何迈向未来，而是想把一切都封锁起来，是的。

And instead of thinking about, you know, how to move forward into a future, their view was to lock things down Yeah.

并真正地阻止它。

And and really stop it.

正如你所知，当出现更好的东西时，是无法阻止的。

And as you know, when you have something that's better like that, there there is no stopping it.

于是我们去找了唱片公司，提出了以99美分出售单曲的构想，但他们让我们去别处折腾。

And so we went to the labels and we had this idea of selling songs at 99¢, and they kinda told us to go pound Sam.

他们根本对我们不感兴趣。

They weren't really interested in us at all.

他们的想法是打算打造一些音乐服务平台。

And their idea was they were gonna build some music services.

当时有五到六个主要唱片公司，它们各自推出了两个音乐服务，我们告诉他们，你们这么做是不会成功的。

So there were five or six major labels and they built two music services, and we told them, like, what you guys are doing is not gonna work.

他们对每首歌的定价都不一样。

They had different pricing for each song.

他们的规则也各不相同。

They had different rules.

有时候你可以

Sometimes you could

花比专辑里某首随机歌曲更高的价格购买一首歌？

buy something price a hit higher than like some random song on an album?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，整个体系乱七八糟。

I mean, it was over the map.

是的。

Yeah.

而且其中一部分是

And part of the

反对每首歌99美元的阻力

push back against like just $99 a song

99美分。

For 99¢.

99美分，这典型的就像苹果的风格。

99¢, I mean, is like, you know, typical Apple style.

就是让我们简化它，让它容易理解。

It's just like let's just make it simple, easy to understand.

但当时有反对意见吗？比如担心人们会说，嘿，我们习惯于让人们购买整张专辑，如果人们只是偶尔买一首歌，会发生什么？

But was there pushback, like, kind of concern that people would, you know, hey, we're used to getting people to just buy an entire album and maybe what's gonna happen if people just buy, you know, a song here or there?

就像

Like

是的。

Yeah.

问题在于，无论是卖1.29美元还是0.79美元，都不会改变这一点。

The problem was whether you sold it at a dollar 29 or 79¢, that wasn't gonna change that.

关于99美分，其实有两个关键点，我们深信不疑，但别人没看出来。

The the key to the there were two keys to 99¢ that we really believed in and and people didn't see.

主要有两个方面。

There were two two primary things.

第一，当价格固定为99美分时，你就再也不用考虑价格问题了。

Number one is at 90 when the price is 99¢ and it's consistent, you never have to think about price.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以你会先试听一首歌，决定喜不喜欢，如果喜欢，就直接购买。

And so you would preview a song, decide whether you like it or not, and if you did, you bought.

因此，你根本不需要考虑任何交易或付款问题，因为你清楚知道价格是99美分，当时这笔钱不算多，购买起来非常简单。

And so there was never any transaction, a billing transaction that you had to think about because you knew it was 99¢, it's not a lot of money at the time, and and it was really easy to do.

第二点是，人们根本做不到这一点，因为当价格是99美分时，如果你使用信用卡收款，你会亏钱，因为信用卡公司收取固定费用和一定比例的手续费。

The second thing was that people could never do that because at 99¢, if you're charging a credit card, you would lose money because credit cards have a fixed fee and they have a percentage that you pay.

对于一首99美分的歌曲，固定费用和手续费加起来差不多有25美分。

Well, the fixed fee and the percentage on a 99¢ song was like a quarter.

是的。

Yeah.

大部分钱都流向了唱片公司。

And the vast majority of the money went to the labels.

所以每卖出一首歌，我们都会亏钱。

So every time we'd sell a song, we would lose money.

对。

Yeah.

因此没人愿意这么做，其他服务也都没有这样做。

And so nobody wanted to do that and and so no other service did that.

我们决定这么做时，当时进行了激烈讨论，因为显然，如果每首歌都亏钱，我们会损失大量资金。

What we decided to do is, as we were building this, and I remember it was a huge discussion because we would lose a ton of money, obviously, if you're losing on every song.

我们说，看吧，这东西太棒了。

We said, look, this thing is amazing.

你不会只买一首歌的。

You're not gonna buy just one song.

你一上去就会买很多首歌。

You're gonna buy a lot of songs when you go on there.

是的。

Yeah.

当你这么做的时候，与其每首歌都单独结算，为什么不把它们在一段时间内合并起来呢？

And when you do that, instead of closing the transaction on every single one, why don't we just combine them over a period of time?

所以，我们保持交易处于开放状态，比如二十四小时或八小时。

So let's keep the, you know, let's keep the transaction open for a period of time, let's call it twenty four hours or eight hours.

你买的所有东西，我们都先给你，然后在最后统一收费。

And everything you buy, we're just going to give you, and then we're going to charge you at the end.

因此，事情就正是这样发生的。

And so therefore, that's exactly what happened.

很少有交易是仅仅99美分的。

Very few transactions were just 99¢.

大多数交易涉及多美元，固定费用就无关紧要了。

Most of the transactions were multiple dollars, and the fixed fee didn't matter.

有意思。

Interesting.

怎么

How

把iTunes定位为相对于Napster时代现状的一种升级和积极转变，这有多重要？

how how important was it to position iTunes as sort of a step up from the status quo from like the Napster era and a positive?

因为我觉得，每当一个行业的经济模式发生变化时，艺术家们都会自然产生不确定性。

Because I feel like any time the economics of an industry change, there's natural uncertainty from artists.

iTunes确实代表了经济结构的变革，但它却是一种强大的正面力量。

And iTunes did represent a change in the economic structure but it was such a great countervailing force.

当时关于如何定位艺术家在新经济体系下所面临的机遇，讨论是怎样的？

How how what were discussions like at that time about positioning the the the economic opportunity that that artists would have in the new regime?

对。

Yeah.

我记得当时我们也有考量，那段时间音乐行业正陷入严重滑坡，懂吧。

I think we wanted during that time, the music business was cratering Okay.

从经济层面来说是这样的。

From an economic point of view.

没错。

Yeah.

而我们一直以来的看法是，绝大多数人都愿意做正确的事。

And our our feeling has always been the vast majority of people want to do the right thing.

对。

Yeah.

而且他们愿意给艺人付费。

And they wanna pay artists.

没错。

Yeah.

但他们不希望被强迫去做一些毫无意义、不友好或不正确的事情。

And so but what they don't want is they don't want to be forced into something that doesn't make any sense or isn't really friendly or isn't the right way to do it.

所以，这正是99美分定价的一部分。

And so we were that's part of the 99¢.

在那个时代，你们大量刻录CD，这本身就是一部分原因。

It was part of like, you can in those times you were burning a lot of CDs.

当时对刻录次数有数量限制。

They had limitations on the number of burns.

我们不希望有任何限制，因为客户根本不会理解这一点。

We didn't want any limitations because that's not something a customer would understand.

因此，我们的想法是，如果你们让我们这样做，你们就会重新增长，而不是继续下滑。

And so our feeling around this was if you let us do this, you're gonna grow again as opposed to cratering.

我记得在我们吃午饭前，史蒂夫问我一次，他说：‘那么，关于这件事，成功的标准是什么？’

And and I remember Steve asked me once before we had lunch, he says, well, you know, what is success around this?

我说：‘老实说，我不知道。’

And I said, you know, honestly, I don't know.

让我去问问。

Let I you know, I'll go ask.

于是我去了环球音乐，问他们：在这个行业里，你们的成功标准是什么？

And so I went into Universal Music and I asked them, you know, what's what's success for you guys in in this business?

他们说：如果你们能在头六个月里的任何一个月卖出一百万首歌，那就是我们的成功。

And they said, well, if you could sell, you know, a million songs in in a month, anytime in the first six months, that's success for us.

于是我回来后说：好吧，这就是我们的目标了。

So I came back, I said, okay, that's that's the goal then.

我们在头六天就卖出了百万首歌曲。

We sold a million songs in the first six days.

太棒了。

That's amazing.

我喜欢这个。

I love it.

所以这太好了。

And so That's great.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，就像那样，这超出了我们的预期，但这是一个例子：如果你给人们正确的方式，人们是愿意付费的，但是……

So it's like that that's what we you know, obviously, it surpassed even our expectation, but it was an example of if you give people the right way, people are willing to pay, but

对。

Yeah.

但必须做好。

It has to it has to be done well.

那么谈谈向订阅模式的转变吧，因为我觉得这对我来说使用的所有苹果服务来说都是一种更自然的体验。

So so talk about the the shift to subscription because it feels like a much more natural experience for all the Apple service that I subscribed to.

当时的考虑是什么？

What was the thinking?

在实现如今苹果电视+这样的状态——你可以观看所有内容——的过程中，遇到了哪些障碍？花了多长时间？

How long like, what were the hurdles along the way to get to the current situation with Apple TV plus where you can consume everything?

这仅仅是市场动态吗？

Was this just a market dynamic?

这是不是你们早期就预见的未来，只是在思考如何平稳地实现它？

Was it something that you saw in the future early on and it was more of how do we get there smoothly?

这个过程是怎样的？

What was the process?

是的。

Yeah.

关键在于，现在我们已经习以为常，很难回想起来，但当时必须做到随时随地都能联网

The key the key to this is it's it's hard to remember this now because we're so used to it, but it's having Internet connectivity anywhere you are

当然。

Sure.

而且是全天候的。

And all the time.

是的。

Yeah.

而且现在几乎不可能身处任何地方却无法使用快速的互联网。

And and and pretty much almost it's it's almost impossible now to be anywhere and not have, you know, actually fast Internet.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，这带来了一种完全不同的变化，因为在那之前，你要么没有网络，要么按使用量付费，嗯。

And so that allowed a whole different thing because before that, you didn't have, one, you either didn't have it or two, you were paying by usage Mhmm.

从某种意义上说。

In a sense.

所以你希望尽量减少实际使用的流量。

So you wanted to limit the amount that you actually used.

因此，下载并始终将内容保存在设备上变得非常重要。

And so things like downloading and and and keeping things on device all the time was really important.

当你拥有近乎无限的互联网或网络接入时，你就可以提供所有这些功能，而无需担心内容是否已下载。

When you have unlimited, in a sense, Internet access or network access, then you can provide all these capabilities and not have to worry about whether you have it downloaded or not.

它现在对你来说是隐形的。

It's now invisible to you.

你甚至都不会去想它。

You don't even think about it.

是的。

Yeah.

大多数时候，我们会把东西放在设备上只是为了缓存之类的，但你根本不需要担心它是否在你的设备上。

Most of the time, we we put things on device just to cache them or whatever, but we don't you don't need to worry about whether it's on your device or not.

是的。

Yeah.

我们从聊天中收到一个问题。

We we we have a question from the chat.

这个问题有点随机，但我很想了解你职业生涯中最喜欢的演讲时刻。

It's a bit random, but I'd love to know your your favorite keynote moment throughout your career.

太好了。

That's great.

我想说，有两个时刻。

I'll say, look, there there are two.

有一个是个人层面的。

There's a personal one Mhmm.

那是我们推出iMac和Apple Store的时候，因为那是苹果转折的开始。

Which was the first one when we launched the iMac and the Apple Store because that was the beginning of turning Apple around.

这对苹果来说是一个重要的时刻。

And it was a big moment for Apple.

人们很难想象，但当时苹果正濒临破产，是的。

We were it's hard for people to imagine this, but Apple was going bankrupt Yeah.

就在那时。

At that time.

乔布斯回归了，那一刻标志着转变的开始，至少我们知道我们不会再破产了。

And Steve came back, and that moment was the beginning of a change where you at least we knew now that we weren't gonna go bankrupt.

这真的给了我们新的生机。

And so it really gave us life.

那是一个非凡的时刻。

And so it was an incredible moment.

我记得在活动结束后和乔布斯一起回到后台，真的拥抱了他，因为一切进行得如此顺利，我们知道那是一个重要的里程碑。

And and I I remember going backstage with Steve after it was done and hugging actually because it had gone so well and we knew that was a big step.

第二个是iPhone的发布，而如今回头来看，我完全低估了它。

The second one, and and honestly now in hindsight, I was I completely underestimated it, was the iPhone launch.

这是我唯一一次让我的妻子和两个孩子来参加活动。

It's the only time I made my wife and my kids, my two kids come to the event.

他们当时都是八岁。

They were eight and eight years old.

我当时觉得这是个历史性的时刻，因为在发布前的几个月，我就已经有机会使用并体验过iPhone了。

And I was like, this is a historic moment because I had had the ability of using the iPhone for a few months before we we launched and played with it.

它真是太棒了，这是我这辈子见过的最酷、最好的东西。

And and and it was just amazing to it's it's the coolest, best thing I had ever seen in the world.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我心想，这次一定会非常精彩。

So I thought, this is gonna be amazing now.

我完全低估了它。

I completely underestimated it.

是的。

Yeah.

因为现在回头看，你会觉得简直无法想象没有它世界会是什么样子。

Because now you look at it and go, it's like, don't even know what the world is like.

是的。

Yeah.

如果没有iPhone，你会怎么做？

What would we what would you do without an iPhone?

对。

Yeah.

你从史蒂夫身上学到的哪些经验，或者哪些记忆，是如今在苹果公司最常浮现在你脑海中的？

What what lessons from Steve or kind of memories do you find yourself coming back to to the most in in the in the present day of Apple?

嗯，想想那些人们习以为常的事情，但没有人比史蒂夫更努力。

Well, think something that, you know, people take for granted, but nobody worked harder than Steve.

你知道吧？

You know?

这些事情都不是轻易得来的，他是我认识的人中最努力的一个。

And and these things don't come easy, and he was the hardest worker of anybody I know.

这表现出来了吗？

Did that manifest?

比如长时间工作？

Like long hours?

只是深度

Just deep

这是因为专注，而且工作时间很长。

It's it's it's focused because it's focused and long hours.

对史蒂夫来说，只有两件事是最重要的。

What it was was there are only two things that mattered to Steve.

当人们问我蒂姆和史蒂夫有什么区别时，其实这个问题本身就不对。

And and I think when people ask me what's the difference between Tim and Steve, the reality is that's not the right question.

问题是，蒂姆和史蒂夫之间有什么相同之处？

The question is what's the same things between Tim and Steve?

你知道，他们的工作态度，他们都比任何人都更努力。

And, you know, their work ethic, they worked harder than anybody.

他们完全专注于两件事：苹果公司和家庭。

They were completely focused on two things, their Apple and their family.

只有这两件事才是最重要的。

Those are the only two things that mattered.

第三件事是对产品本身的专注。

And the third thing was the attention to the products themselves.

重点在于产品以及我们交付给客户的成果。

It was about the products and and what we delivered to customers.

你可能不信，但并不是财务成果。

Believe it or not, not the financial results.

那只是一个次要功能，你当然需要它来维持运营，但它从来不是首要目标。

That was a secondary function that you obviously needed to keep going, but it was never the primary thing.

所以这三点是我至今仍铭记在心的，我觉得这就是我努力去做的，也是我的感受。

And so those three things are something that I still, you know, take to heart and and I feel I I, you know, that's what I try to do and and how I feel.

是的。

Mhmm.

我们能聊聊F1吗？

Can we talk about F one?

我喜欢这一点：既有电影，又能观看真实的赛车比赛。

I love that there's a movie and also you can watch the you can watch the actual races.

这感觉是刻意为之的。

This feels deliberate.

背后的策略是什么？

What's the strategy?

听起来很有道理，但这个想法酝酿多久了？

I'm it it to make a ton of sense, but how long has this been cooking?

背后的思考过程是怎样的？

What's the thought process?

我记得去年

I remember last

去年约翰在节目中谈过这件事，希望它能实现，是的。

year John John had talked about this on the show, wanting this to happen Yes.

看到它如今如此顺利地实现，真是太棒了。

To see it come together the way it has is amazing.

我感觉足球似乎也采用了类似的策略，但我非常感兴趣的是，你是如何看待不同媒体内容之间相互连接的。

I I and it seems like soccer or football sort of face a similar strategy, but I'm very interested in how you see different media properties connect together.

是的。

Yeah.

你看。

Look.

F1这件事是个人化的。

The f one thing is is personal.

首先，我当F1粉丝已经很久了。

One, I've been an f one fan for a long time.

你知道吗，我当初是通过去图书馆、阅读杂志了解F1的，因为信不信由你，F1在美国根本没有任何电视转播。

You know, my my I learned about f one by going to the library and and reading magazines because it believe it or not, f one just wasn't televised at all in The United States.

所以你当时对它一无所知。

So you you didn't know anything about it.

但我对它了解很多。

So I I knew a lot about it.

斯特凡诺，

Stefano,

他是谁

who's

F1的首席执行官，曾经在法拉利工作，后来去了兰博基尼，我认识他。

the CEO of Formula One, is somebody who was at Ferrari and and then later on at Lamborghini, and I've known him.

当他接手F1时，我记得在伦敦与他见面，对他说：我们还没完全到位，但我希望有一天能和你一起合作做F1相关的事。

So when he took on Formula One, I remember meeting with him in London and saying, you know, we're not quite there yet, but someday I hope we can be working together on f one.

所以我一直认为，我们能做些别人做不到的事情。

So I always envisioned that there was things that we could do that no one else could do.