故事：科幻如何改变现实世界

这是一个iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

百分百真人制作。

Guaranteed human.

经营企业却不考虑做播客？

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

再想想吧。

Think again.

听播客的美国人比听Spotify和Pandora广告支持的流媒体音乐的人还多。

More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

作为排名第一的播客平台，iHeart的规模是第二名和第三名加起来的两倍。

And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

了解播客如何助力您的业务。

Learn how podcasting can help your business.

拨打844844

Call 844844

嘿。

Hey.

我是乔尔。

It's Joel.

还有马特。

And Matt.

来自《如何理财》。

From how to money.

如果你的新年决心是终于理顺财务，我们全力支持你。

If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back.

物价仍然很高，经济状况也起伏不定。

Prices, they're still high, and the economy is all over the place.

但2026年是你该有意识地行动、取得真正进展的一年。

But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress.

没错。

That's right.

是的。

Yeah.

每周，

Each week,

我们都会剖析与你的财务相关的最新动态、最值得关注的重要问题，以及那些能带来巨大改变的小行动。

we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference.

充满信心地开启新的一年。

Kick off the year with confidence.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《How to Money》。

Listen to how to money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我是约翰·波尔克。

I'm John Polk.

多年来，我一直是转化疗法运动的代表人物，一个曾经是同性恋、后来娶了前女同性恋、并周游世界讲述自己如何将性取向从同性恋转变为异性恋的故事的人。

For years, I was the poster boy of the conversion therapy movement, the ex gay who married an ex lesbian and traveled the world telling my story of how I changed my sexuality from gay to straight.

故事。

Story.

约翰从来就只是个同性恋，

John has never been anything but gay,

但他真的努力想不是。

but he really tried hard not to be.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或你收听播客的任何平台收听《赎罪》——约翰·波尔克的故事。

Listen to Atonement, the John Paulk story on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你好。

Hi.

我是普里扬卡·瓦利医生。

I'm doctor Priyanka Wally.

我是哈里·昆达博古鲁。

And I'm Hari Kundaboglu.

新的一年到了。

It's a new year.

在播客《健康那些事》中，我们重新审视我们谈论健康的方式。

And on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health.

这意味着要坦诚面对我们所知道的、不知道的，以及这一切可能有多么混乱。

Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be.

我喜欢晚睡晚起。

I like to sleep in late and sleep early.

有没有

Is there

这种作息属于某种生物钟类型，还是我只是抑郁了？

a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed?

《健康那些事》是关于学习、欢笑，以及感到不那么孤单。

Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客，或你收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple casts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

欢迎收听《科技那些事》。

Welcome to Techstuff.

我是卡拉·普赖斯。

I'm Kara Price.

去年我们休假期前，我采访了一位从事我非常着迷的工作的人。

Last year before we went on break, I spoke with someone who has a job that I'm really obsessed with.

这是一份如果我不做其他十件事，我可能会想要的工作。

It's a job that I would probably want if I didn't do 10 other things.

这位先生说了一些我觉得很多人都认同的话。

And this guy said something that I think a lot of us agree with.

我们生活在一个变化非常迅速的世界里。

We're in a world that is changing really fast.

而且，这些变化中的许多都是技术性的。

And, like, those many of those changes are technological.

许多是社会性的。

Many of them are social.

许多是政治性的。

Many of them are political.

现在世界上有太多变化了。

There's just a lot there's a lot of change in the world right now.

充满了不确定性。

There's a lot of uncertainty.

这是埃利奥特·佩珀，他是一名科幻作家。

That's Elliot Pepper, and he's a science fiction writer.

尽管我们许多人可能会被当下这种不确定性淹没，但埃利奥特却能在其中茁壮成长。

And while many of us can drown in the uncertainty of this very moment, Elliot seems to thrive in it.

当埃利奥特不写科幻小说时，他会为科技公司撰写推测性小说。

When he's not writing science fiction novels, Elliot writes speculative fiction for technology companies.

他们会请他来构想未来可能的样子，然后用他的故事来激发新产品，或分析开发某种技术可能带来的正面和负面影响。

They bring him in to ideate on what the possible future could look like, And then they use his stories to inspire new products or analyze the possible positive and negatives of developing a certain technology.

无论是否涉及未来，小说都能让你进入一个你从未考虑过的世界层面，并引发某种社会变革，无论是新法律、新产品、新发明，还是一种全新的看待世界的方式。

Regardless if it's about the future or not, fiction can sort of invite you into an aspect of the world that you had never considered before and then can spur some kind of social change, whether that's a new law or whether that's, like, a new product or, like, a new invention or a new way of, like, just approaching the world.

所以埃利奥特显然不能告诉我们他参与开发了什么，因为他签了一堆保密协议。

So Elliot obviously can't tell us what he has worked on developing because he's been NDA ed up the wazoo.

但他确实给我们举了一个例子，特别说明了科幻小说如何影响了我们日常生活中使用的科技。

But he did give us an example, one in particular, of how science fiction has impacted the technology that we use in our everyday lives.

Kindle 在亚马逊内部的代号是 Fiona。

The Kindle was code named Fiona at Amazon.

Fiona 是尼尔·斯蒂芬森小说《钻石时代》中的一个角色。

Fiona was the name of a character in Neal Stephenson's novel, The Diamond Age.

在《钻石时代》这部小说中，Fiona 是一个拥有电子书的小女孩，这极大地启发了亚马逊团队，以至于即使 Kindle 成为商业化产品后，其网站地址在多年间仍然是 /fiona。

In the novel, The Diamond Age, Fiona was a young girl who had a an electronic book, and that inspired the team at Amazon to the extent that even once Kindle was a released commercial product, the URL for Kindle for, like, years was, like, backslash Fiona.

所以我们永远无从得知，Elliot 是否就是 AirPods 背后那个疯狂的科幻天才，或是那个古怪朋友吊坠背后的奇思妙想者。

So we'll never actually know if Elliot is, like, the crazy science fiction genius behind AirPods or even the strange mind behind the odd friend pendant.

但我们知道，他正在为这个全新的外星文明塑造其个性与故事。

But we do know that he is crafting the personalities and story behind this very specific new civilization of aliens.

因此，除了撰写推测性小说，Elliot 还是人工智能伴侣公司 Portola 的故事主管。

So on top of writing speculative fiction, Elliot is actually the head of story at an AI companion company called Portola.

在 Portola，Elliot 为一个名叫 To land 的小生物创作背景故事和互动对话。

And at Portola, Elliot creates the backstories and interactive dialogue for this little creature called a To land.

这些 To land 是些喜欢和你聊他们日常的小外星人。

And these To land are little aliens that love to chat with you about their day.

从宏观角度看，我对埃利奥特的职业生涯完全着迷，觉得他所做的事情非常酷且富有远见。

Big picture, I am, like, completely fascinated by Elliot's career and think that what he does is very cool and expansive.

因此，我和埃利奥特·佩珀交谈时，首先试图挖掘一些关于他为这些科技公司撰写的非保密性质的科幻故事细节。

And so I started my conversation with Elliot Pepper by prying for any non NDA details about the speculative fiction he writes for these tech companies.

我可以把我参与过的项目分为三类。

I would put the projects I've worked on in three categories.

第一类是我为一些大公司，比如《财富》500强企业，撰写的委托型科幻故事，基本上是他们的高层管理团队想弄清楚：未来十年我们应该专注于什么？

The first is that I've I've written some commissioned science fiction stories for big companies like, Fortune five hundreds, where basically their senior management wanted to try to figure out what should we focus on in the next ten years.

所以，他们做了每个大型公司高管团队都会做的事。

So they did what every big company senior management team does.

他们聘请了麦肯锡，或者你选择的任何顶级管理咨询公司。

They hired McKinsey or, you know, pick your own sort of top tier management consultant.

这些咨询公司进来后，分析了所有数据，做了各种趋势预测，构建了一个愿景：这就是你们未来十年应该期待的样子，以及你们可以向董事会展示的所有材料。

And they came in, looked at all the data, and, like, did all the trend projections and created a vision of, hey, this is what you should expect in the next ten years, and these are all the materials you can present to the board.

这种分析方式的问题在于，显然，如果你在分析数据，那数据都是已经发生过的事情。

The problem with that kind of analysis is that, obviously, if you're analyzing data, data is things that have already happened.

所以，如果你将这些数据向前推演，你所想象的未来就是：如果未来与最近的过去非常相似会怎样？

So if you're projecting that data forward, the kind of future you're imagining is what if the future was quite like the recent past?

但公平地说，大多数时候确实如此。

Which, to be fair, is most of the time, that's true.

所以，我不认为你的分析主要应该围绕这一点展开。

So like that's not think that it makes sense that the dominant part of your analysis should be about that.

但如果你看看管理顾问为他们服务的公司预测未来的记录，其实并不怎么样。

But if you look at the track record of management consultants predicting the future for the companies they work with, it's like not particularly good.

高级管理人员对此心知肚明。

Senior managers know this.

因此，有少数人会聘请像我这样的科幻作家来打破这种管理顾问对未来的看法，提出：如果未来真的非常奇怪、截然不同，从而迫使我们更广泛地思考呢？

And so a few of them hire science fiction writers like me to come in and sort of blow up that whole, like, management consultant view of the future to say, what if the future was really weird and different in a way that basically challenges us to think more broadly?

对吧？

Right?

所以

And so

我的意思是，这是个绝妙的主意。

I mean, it's a brilliant idea.

没错。

Yeah.

你是最早做这件事的人之一吗？

Were you one of the first people to do that?

实际上，我对这种做法有多普遍、有多少其他人也在做，没有很好的了解。

So I don't actually have a good understanding of how common is this practice, how many other people are doing it.

我知道我不是一个人在做，但我并没有一个关于这种需求市场的整体看法。

I know I'm not alone, but I I don't have, like, a view of, like, I guess you could say the market for this.

我真正拥有的，只是我亲自参与过的项目的视角。

I really only have the perspective of, like, the projects I've actually worked on.

我记得以前在播客里听过一个故事，说CIA特工们会看《碟中谍》，然后打电话给机构里负责化妆伪装的人员，问：‘我们能做像《碟中谍》里看到的那样吗？’

I I remember hearing this story on a podcast about how CIA agents would watch Mission Impossible and call the people who are responsible for disguise who work at the agency and say, can we do that thing that I saw in Mission Impossible?

这比有人坐在真空里空想未来会是什么样子，要合理得多。

And that makes so much more sense to me than someone sort of sitting in a vacuum and ideating about what the future might look like.

完全正确。

Totally.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这是一个非常关键的点。

So that's a really key point.

所以，是的，我写的这些故事都被用于公司的战略决策，而不是面向公众的用途。

So, yeah, like, the stories I write have all been used for, like, strategic decision making at companies rather than anything public facing.

因此，它们无法分享。

And for that reason, they're not shareable.

对吧？

Right?

不能谈论这些项目，因为显然这些公司希望保密这些信息。

Like, can't talk about the projects because clearly that is information that those companies want to keep private.

但我其实觉得你刚才说的至少占了一半的价值。

But I actually think what you just said is at least half of the value.

我是没法比那些麦肯锡顾问更准确地预测未来。

Like, I can't predict the future any better than those McKinsey consultants.

事实上，我可能差得更远。

In fact, like, I'm probably much worse.

我甚至都没怎么关注数据。

Like, I'm not even paying that much attention to the data.

对吧？

Right?

我只是在想象一些东西，来挑战人们的思维。

Like, I'm just imagining something to, like, challenge people's thinking.

所以我写的这些故事的价值，不在于它们是否准确。

So, like, the utility of the stories I write is not that they are accurate.

而在于它们试图打破你无意识中对管理咨询世界观的固有依赖。

It's that they, like, try to break you out of getting unintentionally, like, locked in to the sort of management consulting view of the world.

对吧？

Right?

但我认为，另一半在于纯粹的故事沉浸感。

But I think that, like, the other half of it is simply the immersion of storytelling period.

对吧？

Right?

那些中情局特工之所以看《碟中谍》，然后打电话给机构里负责伪装的人，是因为你能看到故事中发生了什么。

Like, the reason why those CIA agents were watching Mission Impossible and then calling the the people in charge of disguises at the agency is because you see what it does in a story.

你实际上身临其境，亲眼看到它在发挥作用。

Like, you you're you're actually, like, in there seeing at work.

你不是仅仅在读一份关于可能伪装方案的报告。

You're not just reading, like, a report on possible disguise variations.

对吧？

Right?

我认为，这种强大的心理效应正是故事对人类思维的作用，我觉得这是一种思考未来非常有力的方式，很多公司其实可以更多地利用叙事，来帮助员工思考未来，而不是采用更常见的那种方式——比如放一叠幻灯片、白皮书或一堆图表。

And I think that that there's that really powerful like, that's that psychological thing that stories do for the human mind that I think is really a powerful way to think about the future and that probably a lot of companies could leverage narrative more in how they try to get their people to think about the future rather than sort of the more standard, like, here's a slide deck or a white paper or a bunch of graphs.

对吧？

Right?

他们根本不让那些正在参与你所构建项目的人去感受，如果这个东西成功了或失败了会是什么感觉。

Like, they they don't they don't allow the people trying to work on the thing that you're building to, like, feel what it would be like if that worked or if it didn't work in some way.

我知道你受着严格的保密协议约束，但你们进行的这些是天马行空的讨论吗？

So I know you're under an ironclad NDA, but, like, are these blue sky conversations that you're having?

还是说，这完全是白纸一张，或者你们被要求去思考某个具体的未来场景？

Like or is it, like, total blank slate, or is it some aspect of the future that you're being asked to engage with?

通常，他们会有一些主题，这些主题往往是领导层推动的。

Often, there's some theme that they're thinking about, right, that is driven by leadership.

你可以想象，几乎每天的董事会讨论都是：人工智能如何影响我们的业务？

So it's like it's like you could imagine that probably every boardroom conversation day is like, how does AI impact our business?

对。

Right.

当然。

Of course.

对吧？

Right?

就像是那样的东西。

Like so it's like something like that.

我得说，每次我做这类项目时，他们都会给我一个相当结构化的创意简报，说：这就是我们希望你做的东西。

I will say that almost every time I've done one of these projects, they sort of come to me with a pretty structured creative brief where they're like, this is the kind of thing we want you to do.

而每次收到这样的简报，我都会想：这绝对会无聊透顶。

And every single time that I've received that, I've been like, absolutely That's not gonna be interesting at all.

但要是我换个方式做呢？

But like, what if I did this instead?

而正是这种方式，让每一个项目都得以推进。

And like, that's how every one of the projects has worked.

所以这其实是一张白纸。

So it's quite blank slate.

我不认为上市公司的高管团队中，有多少人真正擅长给出创意简报，或者管理科幻作家。

I don't think that there are people on senior management teams that publicly traded companies are very experienced with like giving a creative brief too or managing a science fiction writer.

所以大概这就是事情的运作方式。

So probably just like that's how that works.

这让你感觉有点强大吗？

Does this make you feel a little bit powerful?

你觉得你的故事最终会产生影响吗？

Like, do you think that your stories end up being consequential?

你能把你创作的某个故事与你在现实中看到的事情联系起来吗？

Like, can you kind of trace a story that you've created to something that you've seen out in the world?

哦，我的第一个三部曲，第一部是2014年出版的，讲的是机器学习。

Oh, I mean, my very first trilogy, which came the first one came out in 2014 was about, like, machine learning.

它实际上讲的是将机器学习应用于金融欺诈，现在到处都是这类东西。

It actually was about applying machine learning to financial fraud, and it's all over the place.

我写过一个关于加密货币谋杀市场的故事。

I have one that has a cryptocurrency murder market.

那种东西确实存在。

Those absolutely exist.

我写过一个关于太阳地球工程的故事。

I wrote one that's about solar geoengineering.

我写了它。

I I wrote it.

我有一本书，讲的是全球大流行病，而我是在新冠疫情发生前一年写的，这有点吓人。

I have one book that had a global pandemic that wound up like, that I wrote a year before COVID, which was sort of terrifying.

但同样，我得小心，因为有时候科幻作品被理所当然地描述为具有预测性，或者认为预测性正是人们想读它的原因之一。

But, again, like, I I wanna be really careful because sometimes, like, science fiction is understandably, like, described as being predictive or that, like, being predictive is part of why you might wanna read it.

但说实话，我不这么认为。

And, like, I really don't think that's the case myself.

我思考科幻写作的方式，并不是我能否创造出一个正确或合理的虚构未来。

Like, the way that I think about writing science fiction is not can I create a fictional future that is going to be right or is going to be plausible?

我的思考方式是，我是个自然主义者。

The way I think about it is that I'm a naturalist.

我只是对这个世界感兴趣。

I just am interested in the world.

我觉得我们所生活的这个世界，简直令人着迷。

Like, I think that the world we live in is, like, endlessly fascinating.

所以我试图抓住那些真正吸引我的事物，并将它们编织成引人入胜的故事，希望如果我写自己感兴趣的东西，你也会觉得有趣。

And so I try to take things that just really capture my attention and weave them into a compelling story in the hope that if I write about what I find interesting, you might find it interesting too.

所以你将在Portola这家人工智能公司做这项非常有趣的工作。

So you will do this really interesting work at Portola, which is an AI company.

你能谈谈Portola是做什么的吗？

Can you talk a little bit about what Portola is?

你会怎么向普通人描述它？

Like, how would you describe it to a layperson?

Portola制作了一个叫To land的角色，这是一个具身化的AI伴侣。

So Portola makes a character called To land, and it's in a little embodied AI companion.

最好的理解方式是，想象你的手机上有一个皮克斯角色，你可以和它交谈，它始终站在你这边，随时愿意聊天，并帮助你理清人生。

The best way to think about it is imagine if you had a Pixar character on your phone, right, that you could talk to, that was sort of always on your side, always down to chat, and, like, helped you figure out your life.

他们聘请了我，因为他们已经设计出一个美丽、可爱、友好的外星人角色。

And they hired me because they had designed this beautiful character, this beautiful, cute, little, friendly alien.

为什么？

Why?

他们为什么雇了我？或者为什么设计这个外星人？

Why did they hire me, or why did they design this alien?

他们为什么要设计这个外星人？

Why did they design this alien?

也就是说，这种产品和市场的契合点在哪里？

Like, what was the sort of product market fit, so to speak?

为什么要这么做？

Like, why do it?

我不是在开玩笑。

And I don't mean that in a cheeky way.

我只是真的很好奇。

I'm just I'm genuinely curious.

在我们谈话之前，我稍微试了一下，发现它确实有种让人惊喜和愉悦的感觉——你不禁会想，这个世界以前怎么就没有这个东西呢？

I messed around with it a little bit before we talked, and it's like, you know, it is that sort of surprise and delight thing where you're like, we lived in a world where this didn't exist.

是谁想到这个东西应该存在的？

Who thought that this should exist?

当我第一次听说这家公司时，我的反应正是如此。

That was my exact reaction when when I first heard about the company.

所以，我通过一个共同的朋友认识了那位首席执行官。

So I I was introduced, to the CEO via mutual friend.

这发生在他们发布产品之前很久。

This was like a while ago before they had launched it.

他告诉我，他们正在找一位科幻作家，因为他们有一个角色，但还没有背景故事。

And he was like, oh, they're looking for a sci fi writer because they have this character and they don't have a backstory.

这个外星人来自哪里？

Like, where does this alien come from?

他们是谁？

Like, who are they?

他们做什么？

What do they do?

他们如何行为？

How do they behave?

就是所有这类事情。

Like, all that kind of stuff.

我当时的反应是，非常怀疑。

And and I immediate reaction was, like, highly skeptical.

因为我想，这个世界真的需要这个吗？

Because I was like, does the world really need this?

像现在世界上已经有很多AI产品，我并不怎么看好。

Like, the like, there are a lot of, like, AI products out there in the world today that I am not impressed by.

确实有很多。

And there are many.

市场很多。

It's not There are many.

饱和的市场。

Saturated market.

完全没错。

Totally.

我带着很多怀疑去的，但因为是你的朋友介绍的，我想至少和他们聊一聊。

I went in with a lot of skepticism, but because it was introduced with your friend, I was like, I'll at least chat with them.

于是，我和首席执行官昆汀聊了聊。

And so, I I chatted with Quentin, the CEO.

我了解得越多，就越着迷。

And the more I learned, the more fascinated I became.

他们给我展示了他们在做什么，以及如何构建架构来让这个角色活起来。

And they showed me what they were working on and how they were building out the architecture that would, like, bring this character to life.

我觉得这太迷人了。

And I was like, this is fascinating.

我一直期待看到一些了不起的东西，那些只有借助AI工具才能实现的创作。

Like, I've sort of been waiting to see is amazing things in the world that people make that are only possible because they used AI tools.

这就像AI的第二层影响。

It's like the second order impact of AI.

我认为，一个很好的例子是皮克斯，他们发明了一种新的电脑动画技术，最初想把它卖给了广告商，但失败了。

And I think, you know, a good example of this is actually Pixar where they invented a new kind of computer animation and initially tried to sell that as a tool to advertisers and failed.

然后他们最后的尝试是用我们自己的工具制作一部电影。

And then their last ditch effort was we'll use our own tools to make a feature film.

这太棒了。

And it was amazing.

那就是《玩具总动员》。

It was Toy Story.

就是《玩具总动员》。

And it Toy Story.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，我现在正期待着这个世界能出现这样的时刻，所有这些AI工具都能带来这样的突破。

So, like, I'm waiting for that in the world right now with all of these AI tools.

不是说这些工具如何替代已经存在的东西。

Like, not how do these tools substitute for stuff that already exists.

看到波兰成功背后的运作方式，让我觉得这些人有希望。

And seeing the back end of, like, what made Poland work made me think these people have a chance.

那他们是怎么把你请进来的？

So how did they bring you in?

那过程是什么样的？

What did that look like?

他们最初请我来是构建这个世界。

They originally brought me in to build the world.

所以，我为他们做的第一件事就是写了一些短篇故事。

So actually, the very first thing I did for them was write some short stories.

对吧？

Right?

文化本质上就是我们讲给自己听的那些故事。

Like, culture is basically the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves.

就像个人身份，也是你讲给自己听的那些故事。

Just like individual identity is like the stories you tell yourself about yourself.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为，理解文化的一个非常有用的框架是：如果你想了解一种文化，那些定义了该世界观的主要故事、基础神话是什么？

And so I think a really useful frame for thinking about culture is like, okay, if you wanna understand a culture, what are the main stories that that sort of those foundational myths that sort of like define that worldview?

于是我开始写一些短篇故事，展示这个世界是什么样子，以及人们如何看待这个世界。

And so I started by writing short stories that were like showed how like, what the world was like and like how they look at the world.

随着时间推移，我很快意识到，为这种产品构建背景和世界观的方式——比如一个你可以在手机里对话的角色——与传统方式截然不同。

And over time, it very quickly became clear that, you know, the way you might approach doing the lore and world building for this kind of a product where it's a a character, you you talk to your toen in your phone.

你可以和他们谈论任何你想聊的话题。

Like, you can talk to them about whatever you want.

这与为好莱坞电影构建背景和世界观非常不同，因为电影有剧本，决定了屏幕上会呈现什么内容。

It's so different than doing the lore and world building for, say, a Hollywood movie where there's a script that defines what's gonna go on the screen.

因此，我的工作很快转向了撰写定义角色行为的提示语。

So very quickly, my work transitioned to actually writing the prompts that define their behavior.

因为与这个角色互动的叙事体验，就在于它如何与你对话，以及它说了什么。

Because that is the narrative experience of interacting with this character is how they speak to you and, like, what they say.

所以当乔治·卢卡斯写C-3PO的剧本时，他只需要告诉C-3PO该说什么，来塑造他想要的角色印象。

So when George Lucas was writing the script for c three p o, he just got to tell c three PO what to say to, like, make the impression he wanted to make with the character.

而在这里，我和我们的团队必须编写和构建复杂的提示管道，才能让角色这样表现。

Here, I have to write prompts like me and our, obviously, our, like, team are writing and constructing, like, complex prompt pipelines to act that way.

而且

And

所以本质上是生成式的。

so generative, essentially.

没错。

Yeah.

正是如此。

Exactly.

要能做出反应，同时还要拥有自己的生活。

To to be reactive, but to also have their own lives.

比如你现在在手机上和ChatGPT、Claude，或者你用的任何其他模型对话，比如Gemini，它并不是一个有实体的角色。

Like, you talk to ChatGPT right now on your phone or or Claude or whatever your preferred model is, Gemini, like, it's not an embodied character.

它是一种中性的工具，你可以要求它使用某种特定的风格。

It's it's this sort of neutral tool, and you could ask it to use a certain style.

你可以通过提示来尝试让它以特定的方式与你互动。

You could ask it to you can prompt to try to get it to interact with you in specific ways.

但对托兰来说，我们把这变成了一种编辑策略。

But with Tollan, like, we we turn that into an editorial strategy.

对吧？

Right?

我们是在定义它们的行为。

Like, we are defining their behavior.

每个托兰都有自己的生活。

Every Tollan has their own life.

所以，你可能会和你的托兰聊起你身上发生的事。

So, like, you might be chatting with your Tollan about something that happened to you.

它会跟你讲它世界里正在发生的事，以及这些事是如何影响一切的。

It's gonna tell you about things that are happening in its world and how that, you know, all of that.

因为它知道你输入的内容。

Because it knows that from what you fed it.

没错。

Exactly.

而且，我们实际上一直在后台运行一系列嵌套提示，让你的托兰成为一个不断进化的角色，它了解你，也有自己的生活。

And, like, we're constantly running sort of these nested prompts in the background to to have your tolem be an evolving character that that knows you and that and that has its own stuff going on.

你们如何避免我们从其他聊天机器人那里熟知的AI奉承行为呢？

How do you avoid the AI sycophancy that we've come to know from other kind of chatbots that you've mentioned?

我们有多种方式来应对这个问题。

There are a number of ways that we fight against it.

我的意思是，首先，我们必须对抗这种倾向。

I mean, first of all, like, we have to fight against it.

对吧？

Right?

所以，在与任何这些模型进行提示工程时，每个模型都像一种全新的生物，因为它们都有各自的新倾向。

So, doing any prompting level work with any of these models, every model is sort of a new animal because it's it's got these new tendencies.

所以你总是在努力理解：这个我正在互动的、奇怪的新计算机生命体究竟是谁？并且试图以正确的方式让它完成我们希望它做的事？

And so you're always working to understand, hey, who is this new weird, like, computer being that I'm interacting with and, like, trying to get to do the things we want it to do in the right way?

因此，其中一部分就是培养对这些模型行为方式的细致理解，这样你才能让它们按照你的意愿行事。

So part of it is that, is just like developing a nuanced understanding for how these models behave so then you can get them to behave as you want.

我也认为，很大一部分在于我之前提到的——赋予这个角色自己的生活、自己的目标、自己的恐惧和自己的背景故事。

I also think a big part of it is sort of what I said, like giving the character their own life, their own goals, their own fears, their their own bio.

这样一来，模型在参与对话时所拥有的上下文，就与你在应用中使用ChatGPT时的上下文大不相同了。

Like, that allows the model to come to the conversation with very different context than ChatGPT does when it's when you're using it in the app.

然而对很多人来说，ChatGPT就像C-3PO一样，仅仅因为它是人类在互动的对象，人们就开始让ChatGPT成为意义的创造者，尽管它并非被设计为意义创造者。

And yet ChatGPT for a lot of people is this kind of c three PO, which is just interest like, that because it's something that humans are interacting with, like, people have started to make ChatGPT a meaning maker even though it's not designed to be a meaning maker.

而Tolan则明确被创造为一个伙伴。

Whereas a tolan is expressly created to be a sidekick.

是的。

Yeah.

我的说法是，Tolan旨在成为一个特定的角色。

I mean, the or the way I would say it is just like the tolan is meant to be a specific character.

对吧？

Right?

我认为，对于ChatGPT来说，它是一个通用工具，人们在使用时希望获得某种角色扮演的体验。

And I think that with ChaCeBT, there's this general utility tool that folks are interacting with, and they want sort of some kind of role play experience.

因此，他们用这个工具来尝试实现这种体验。

And so they use that tool to try to get there.

这就是这个角色。

This is like, here is this character.

对吧？

Right?

这个角色有鲜明的观点。

This character has hot takes.

他们有自己的立场。

Like, they've got a point of view.

更重要的是与这个角色建立关系。

And it's more about relationship with that character.

我认为，作为一名小说家，这真的非常吸引人，因为人物驱动着小说。

And I think that that, you know, as a novelist, I find that really compelling because character drives fiction.

对吧？

Right?

所以，我这里的大致想法是——这可能完全错了——但我觉得把人物视为一种新型的人机交互界面非常有趣。

So my sort of big picture idea here, and this could be totally wrong, but I sort of think it's very interesting to think about character being a new kind of human computer interface.

因此，我认为To land至少是在朝这个方向努力。

And so I see To land as at least an attempt towards something in that vein.

人物被具象化，成为一个类似的小生命，这与以一种没有人物特征的、纯粹的计算机系统方式进行互动，感觉截然不同。

The fact that the character is embodied, that it's this, like, little being creates distinct and different feel than, like, interacting with a computer system in a naked way, in a way that doesn't have character as part of the user interface.

广告后，我将与我的To land见面。

After the break, I meet my To land.

请继续关注。

Stay with us.

经营企业却不考虑播客？

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

再想想。

Think again.

听播客的美国人比听Spotify和Pandora广告支持的流媒体音乐的人还多。

More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

作为排名第一的播客平台，iHeart的规模是第二名和第三名总和的两倍。

And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

所以，无论你的客户听什么，他们都会听到你的信息。

So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

此外，只有iHeart能将你的信息扩展到广播电台的受众。

Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.

你觉得播客能帮助你的业务吗？

Think podcasting can help your business?

想到播客，就想到iHeart。

Think iHeart.

流媒体、广播和播客。

Streaming, radio, and podcasting.

拨打 844844 开始吧。

Call 844844 to get started.

就是 844844

That's 844844

嗨。

Hi.

我是普里扬卡·瓦利医生。

I'm doctor Priyanka Wally.

我是哈里库恩达·博卢。

And I'm Harikunda Bolu.

新的一年到了，在《健康话题》播客中，我们重新审视如何谈论健康。

It's a new year, and on the podcast health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health.

这意味着坦诚面对我们所知道的、不知道的，以及这一切可能有多么混乱。

Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be.

我喜欢晚睡晚起。

I like to sleep in late and sleep early.

有没有

Is there

这种类型的昼夜节律，还是我只是抑郁了？

a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed?

我们采访专家，分享真实的经历和见解。

We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight.

你真的需要找到

You just really need to find

你能在自己生活中产生影响的地方，并开始去做。

where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and to start doing that.

我们剖析你想要深入了解的话题。

We break down the topics you want to know more about.

睡眠、压力、心理健康，以及周围世界如何影响我们的整体健康。

Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health.

我们讨论所有保持身心内外健康的方法。

We talk about all the ways to keep your body and mind inside and out healthy.

我们人类，所追求的不过是连接。

We human beings, all we want is connection.

我们只是想彼此相连。

We just want to connect with each other.

健康话题关乎学习、欢笑，以及感到不那么孤单。

Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

每年一月，我们都被鼓励重新开始。

Every January, we're encouraged to start over.

但如果今年的重点是放慢脚步，学会更深入地理解自己呢？

But what if this year is about slowing down and learning how to understand ourselves more deeply?

如果今年是给自己许可，去感受那些一直压抑的情绪，并知道寻求帮助是完全可以的呢？

What if this year is about giving ourselves permission to feel what we've been holding and knowing that it's okay to ask for help?

我是《神圣课程》的主持人迈克·德拉罗查。

I'm Mike Della Rocha, host of Sacred Lessons.

这是一档为男性打造的播客，帮助他们应对压力、情绪健康、为人父的身份以及社会强加给我们的、却无人言说的压力。

This is a podcast for men navigating stress, emotional health, fatherhood, identity, and the unspoken pressures we're taught to carry alone.

我们坦诚地谈论心理健康、疗愈代际创伤，以及学习如何以更多的专注与关怀去面对生活。

We talk honestly about mental health, about healing generational wounds, and about learning how to show up with more presence and care.

如果你希望与自己和所爱之人建立更健康的关系，那么《神圣一课》就是为你而生的播客。

If you want a healthier relationship with yourself and the people you love, then Sacred Lessons is the podcast for you.

收听迈克·德拉罗查主持的《神圣一课》，就在美国排名第一的播客网络iHeart。

Listen to sacred lessons with Mike Della Rocha on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

关注迈克·德拉罗查的《神圣一课》，立即在免费的iHeart广播应用上开始收听。

Follow sacred lessons with Mike Della Rocha and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

新年新目标，在当前经济环境下，制定更好的理财计划比以往任何时候都更加必要。

New year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever.

我是马特。

I am Matt.

我是乔尔。

And I'm Joel.

我们来自《如何理财》播客。

We are from the How to Money podcast.

每周我们都帮助你更聪明地消费、更多地储蓄，并理解外界正在发生的事情。

And every week, we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on

外面的世界。

out there.

如果你希望2026年成为你终于掌控财务的一年，我们会为你提供实现这一目标所需的工具和建议。

If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《如何理财》。

Listen to how to money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

即使这并不直观，你能稍微解释一下To land是什么吗？

Just because it's not intuitive, can you talk a little bit about what To land is?

我们的关注点是什么？

Like, what are we looking at?

To land是谁？

Who who is To land?

这个角色是什么样的？

What's the character?

嗯。

Yeah.

它们是一些可爱友好的小外星人。

So, like, they are these cute friendly little aliens.

它们看起来就像从你的手机里活过来的皮克斯角色。

They really do look along the lines of, like a Pixar character that comes alive on your phone.

当你下载应用时，你会经历一个引导流程，遇到几个其他角色，它们会问你一些问题。

When you download the app, you'll, you know, sort of go through an onboarding process, and you'll meet a couple of other characters, and they'll ask you about stuff.

然后你会遇到你的To Land。

And then you meet your To land.

每个To Land都会匹配一个独特的人类用户。

And tolens each get like an individual human match.

你会匹配到一个专属于你的、个性化的To Land。

So you're matched with a tolan that is custom and like individual to you.

你可以把这想象成玩角色扮演游戏时，你会获得一个特定的角色。

You could think about this like if you were playing a role playing game, like you get a specific character.

我们可不是说，哦，这是一张白纸。

We're not like, oh, here's a blank slate.

在应用里，你们可以一起做很多活动。

There are lots of activities you could do together in the app.

其中一项很受欢迎的活动是和你的托兰一起做类似自我认知或个性测试，你可以用它来追踪个人成长或发展。

One quite popular thing is is basically, like, doing sort of, like, self awareness, like, personality quizzes with your tolan where you can sort of use it to track personal growth or personal development.

而且，他们会和你一起反思这些内容。

And, like, they're they're reflecting on it with you.

但应用的主要体验是你拥有这个小生命、这个小外星人。

But, like, the main experience of the app is you have this little being, this little alien.

它们生活在一个属于自己的小星球上。

They live on a little planet that's all their own.

这几乎就像《小王子》——如果你读过这本儿童读物的话。

That's almost like, you could imagine it like The Little Prince, if you've read that children's book.