TED 负责人克里斯·安德森谈 TED 的新篇章

我是伊拉·格拉斯。

This is Ira Glass.

在《美国生活》这个节目里，我们特别喜欢讲一个好谜题。

On This American Life, one that we like is a good mystery.

有时候是关于大事，但大多数时候，那些小谜团才最吸引人。

Sometimes about really big things, but most times, the little mysteries are the best.

我们失物招领处现在堆满了裤子。

Our lost and found is currently filled with pants.

我真不知道，这种事我从来没见过。

I don't know what I I I've never seen this happen.

这真的吗？

This is true?

是真的。

This is true.

每周都有各种大小的谜题，欢迎收听《美国生活》，在你常用的播客平台都能找到。

Mysteries of every size each week, This American Life, wherever you get your podcasts.

你好，TED Radio Hour的听众。

Hey, TED Radio Hour listener.

我是马努什。

It's Manouche.

今天，我们稍微幕后走一走，更新一下关于TED的进展。

And today, we are going behind the scenes a bit with an update about TED.

TED是个非营利组织，和NPR合作制作这个节目。

So TED is a nonprofit, and it partners with NPR to make this show.

但这个节目只是TED组织做的众多事情中的一件。

But this show is just one of the many, many different things that the TED organization does.

当然，还有TED大会和TED演讲，每周你都能听到。

There is the TED conference with TED Talks, of course, which you hear every week.

另外，TED还有一个叫Countdown的气候倡议。

But also there's TED's climate initiative called Countdown.

还有它的大胆计划，已经向其他组织捐赠了数亿美元。

There's its audacious project, which has given away hundreds of millions of dollars to other organizations.

而这一切背后的掌舵人，是克里斯·安德森。

And the man behind all of it is Chris Anderson.

克里斯是一位富有远见的人，一位品味引领者，也是一位慈善家。

Chris is a visionary, a tastemaker, a philanthropist.

过去几十年里，他把TED打造成了一家享誉全球的媒体机构。

Over the last few decades, he has turned TED into a globally recognized media organization.

但最近，他决定做出一些改变，并且来跟我聊聊这个决定。

But recently, he decided he needed to change things up, and he joined me to explain.

克里斯，非常感谢你今天能来。

Chris, thank you so much for being here.

能来这里真的很开心，马尼什。

It's lovely to be here, Manish.

在谈你的新决定之前，你能跟大家说说，你是怎么成为TED负责人的吗？

So before we get to your announcement, can you just explain to folks how you came to be the head of TED?

这背后可有一段不寻常的故事。

Because it's quite a story.

TED的负责人。

A TED head.

没错。

Yes.

现在我们每个人都是TED的忠实粉丝了，克里斯。

We all are TED heads at this point, Chris.

说来话长。

It's a long story, actually.

八九十年代的时候，我是个媒体创业者。

I was a media entrepreneur back in the eighties and nineties.

最早在英国起步，办过好几本杂志，后来到美国继续做同样的事，偶然间被介绍参加了加州一场很特别的会议。

Started in England, published a bunch of magazines, came to America to do the same, and was introduced to this quirky conference in California.

那场会议讲的是科技、娱乐和设计，还有这三者之间奇妙的关联。

It was all about technology and entertainment and design and weirdly how those three things might fit together.

我想我第一次参加是在1998年。

And so I think it was 1998 was the first time I went.

我一下子就爱上了它。

I fell in love with it.

你平时不会对会议产生感情，但这个群体让我特别兴奋。

You don't normally fall in love with conferences, but there was something about this group of people that made me excited.

这些人不只是在做本职工作。

These were not just people doing the professional thing.

他们是在做梦想。

They were dreaming.

他们想的是未来那些酷炫的事儿。

They wanted to think about cool things for the future.

所以，我确实爱上了它，觉得特别有启发。

And so, yeah, I I fell in love with it and found it strangely inspiring.

几年后，我

And a couple years later, I

有机会从它那位才华横溢又特立独行的创始人理查德·索尔·沃尔曼手里把它买下来。

had the chance to buy it from its brilliant, quirky founder, Richard Sall Worman.

所以我就这么做了，那会儿正好是

So I I did that, and that happened right at

我自己的公司虽然没彻底垮掉，但在互联网泡沫破裂时过得特别艰难。

the time my own company kind of it didn't exactly blow up, but it was it had a horrid time during the dot com crash.

于是我就离开了那里，转而加入了TED。

And so I left that and moved sideways into into TED.

它后来变成了非营利组织，也成了我一生的热忱。

And it became a nonprofit, and it became my life's passion.

是的。

Yeah.

你该怎么向别人描述TED现在做什么呢？

How do you describe to people what TED does now?

虽然每年还是有大会，但自从你二十五年前接手以来，它已经壮大了很多。

There there is still the annual conference, but it has grown enormously since you took over nearly twenty five years ago.

大概在2006年左右，互联网上发生了一件奇怪的事——一种叫在线视频的新技术突然开始成形。

So something weird happened on the Internet around about 2006, which was this weird technology called online video started to shake itself into existence.

是的

Yeah.

因为一开始，你还记得吧，屏幕上就几个低分辨率的小像素点，音质还特别差。

Because initially, if you remember, it's just like a few little low res pixels in the corner of your laptop with dodgy audio.

但后来它突然火了，YouTube也出现了，等等。

But it started taking off, YouTube happened and so forth.

我们这才意识到，这个会议的内容，世界上其他人可能也想看。

And we realized that this conference had content which others in the world might want to know about.

于是我们开始尝试把内容免费放到网上。

And so we started to experiment with putting it up for free online.

结果让我们大吃一惊，一下子爆了。

And to our amazement, it took off.

这些演讲迅速走红。

These talks went viral.

于是我们彻底改变了对TED的看法，把它当成一种向全世界分享思想的方式。

And so we kind of flipped how we thought about TED and saw it as just a way of sharing ideas with the world.

我们称之为思想的传播。

Ideas were spreading, we we called it.

对。

Mhmm.

在极短的时间内，很多人开始关注TED。

And in a shockingly short period of time, lots of people came to hear about TED.

人们对这个会议的需求反而上升了，而不是下降。

Demand for the conference actually went up, not down.

我们原本担心，免费提供内容会让我们失去观众。

We were worried if by giving away the content, we'd lose our audience.

但结果恰恰相反。

But turned out the opposite happened.

这让我们更加坚定了信任互联网、尽可能免费分享内容的路子。

And so it encouraged us to go on this journey of trusting the Internet almost, of of giving away what we could give away.

我们甚至把品牌以TEDx授权的形式开放出去，效果真的非常好。

I mean, we, you know, we gave away the brand in the form of TEDx licenses, and that really spread.

全球各地已经举办了三千多场TEDx活动。

There's about 3,000 plus TEDx events held around the world.

这件事渐渐为人所知，TED演讲被广泛用于学校教学，这一切都出人意料，又令人欣喜。

It became a thing that people knew about, and TED Talks got played at schools, and it was all surprising and utterly delightful.

早在2025年初，你就告诉我们，你正在寻找一位新的负责人来接手TED。

So earlier in 2025, you let us all know that you were looking to hand over the reins to find what you were calling a new steward.

我想念一段2025年2月那天的新闻标题给你听。

And I just wanna read you some of the headlines from that day in February 2025.

克里斯·安德森要把TED交给最有想法的人来掌管。

Chris Anderson is giving TED away to whoever has the best idea for its future.

《晨间饮品》是这么说的：TED的负责人玩了一把威利·旺卡。

Or the Morning Brew put it, the head of TED pulls a Willy Wonka.

你当时在找一个能拿到金票的人。

This this idea that you were looking for someone who had the golden ticket.

而如今，我们就在这里。

And here we are.

今天，你有个重要的消息要公布。

Today, you do have an announcement.

到底发生了什么？

What has happened?

这九个月真是非同寻常。

So it's been an extraordinary nine months.

我们收到了大量精彩的反馈、请求、建议和意向。

We had an outpouring of amazing input, requests, suggestions, offers.

超过八十家机构主动联系了我们。

More than 80 organizations raised their hands.

有人甚至拿出上亿美金的支票来表达支持。

People waved 9 figure checks at us and so forth.

但越想越觉得，把TED做成营利性项目并不合适。

But the more we thought about it, the more we couldn't picture going a for profit route with this.

TED一直以来的核心，就是一种慷慨的精神。

So much of the culture of TED has been it's a spirit of generosity.

演讲者来发言都是免费的。

Speakers come and speak for free.

他们的讲话被人们自发地传播到世界各地，大家因为感动而免费分享。

Their words are carried around the world by people getting excited about them and sharing them for free.

TEDx的组织者也都无偿奉献自己的时间。

TEDx organizers give their time for free.

正是这种精神，一直推动着我们前进。

That spirit is really what's carried us forward.

我们实在想象不出，如果大家都知道TED背后的掌控者迟早要靠它赚钱、发大财，还能怎么保持这份纯粹。

And we couldn't picture how to maintain that in its full glory with everyone knowing that the controllers behind TED were, you know, one day gonna cash in and get very rich.

我们觉得，必须把TED保持为非营利机构，试着用这种方式运作，看看能不能同样激发出我们为这一新篇章所期待的热情。

We thought that we needed to keep TED as a nonprofit and try and make it work that way and see if you could build the same excitement we were looking for for this new chapter that way.

最后，我们想出了一个绝佳的方案。

And we came up with an amazing solution.

而你，是第一个知道的人。

And you're the first person.

曼努什，这只是一个提前的预告，因为你为《TED电台》做出了非凡的贡献。

This is just a preview announcement to you, Manouche, because of the incredible role you've played on TED Radio Hour

谢谢你，克里斯。

Thanks, Chris.

关于我们做出的这个决定。

As to the decision we made.

接下来将接任TED愿景守护者的人，正是可汗学院的创始人——萨尔·汗。

So the person coming in as the new vision steward of TED is none other than Sal Khan, the incredible founder of Khan Academy.

他是一个深信知识可以通过互联网免费分享，并能产生巨大影响的人。

So here's a man who believes profoundly in the power of sharing knowledge freely online on the Internet and what that can do.

他特别擅长讲解，最初只是做数学和科学的视频，后来却扩展成一个庞大的教育视频体系，惠及了数以百万计的孩子和成人。

And his brilliant ability to explain initially, it was just math and science videos, but then it spawned this whole world of educational videos for literally millions of kids and adults.

他愿意和TED合作，这真让我们无比振奋。

So for him to be interested in teaming up with TED was just a thrill.

随着越来越了解他，我对未来的可能性也越发充满期待。

And as I've got to know him, I've become more and more excited about the potential here.

萨尔不会离开可汗学院。

Sal is not leaving Khan Academy.

恰恰相反，那才是他毕生的热爱。

On the contrary, that is his life's passion.

但我们俩都看到，这两个机构完全可以相互助力，产生更大的影响。

But what we both see is an extraordinary way in which these two organizations can amplify each other.

所以萨尔将成为新的愿景引领者。

So Sal is the new visioneer.

虽然我不会离开，还会继续留任，

And although I'm not leaving, I'm staying

但他会加入董事会。

on the board, he's joining the board.

他会接过这面旗帜。

He will carry the torch.

我会支持他，为他加油。

I'll be supporting him and cheerleading him.

这正是这个计划的关键一环。

And there's one of the key piece to this puzzle.

对。

Mhmm.

我们为TED的下一阶段任命了一位新的首席执行官。

We're appointing a new CEO for TED for this next chapter.

她来自组织内部，名叫洛根·麦克劳德·达娃。

She's coming from from within from within the org, Logan McLeod Davda.

她是一位非常出色的女人。

She is an amazing woman.

确实如此。

She is.

她实际上共同创立了TED研究员项目，多年来在TED工作一直特别令人愉快。

She's know, she cofounded, actually, the the the TED Fellows program and has just been a joy to work with during many years at TED.

她曾短暂离开，后来又回来担任影响力部门的负责人。

She left for a bit and then came back as head of impact.

所以她被广泛视为新任首席执行官的绝佳人选。

So she's a hugely popular choice for new CEO.

至于洛根和萨尔的搭档组合，我简直太期待了。

And that combination of Logan and Sal, I couldn't be more excited about.

我想跟这里的铁粉和关心此事的朋友说明一下，这是否意味着可汗学院和TED要合并了？

I just wanna you know, for the super fans here and the folks who really wanna understand this, does this mean that Khan Academy and TED are merging?

不会。

No.

不会。

No.

不会。

No.

不会。

No.

绝对不会有合并这回事。

It definitely doesn't.

他们是独立的组织。

They are their own organization.

他们有一支非凡的董事会。

They've got an extraordinary board.

他们有自己的资源，肩负着宏大的使命。

They've got their own resources and a giant mission to accomplish.

但通过与TED合作，这个使命可以得到极大的拓展和加强。

But that mission can actually be significantly expanded and enhanced by his teaming up with TED.

萨尔·汗的核心理念就是利用科技让教育在全球范围内免费开放，不只是在美国。

I mean, so Sal Khan's whole thing is about technology making education freely available, not just in The United States, across the globe.

这位新任负责人上任，是否意味着你们要从媒体机构转型为教育机构？

Does this new sort of steward, does that mean you're changing from being a media organization to being more of an educational one?

也许你们根本没把这两者区分开来。

Maybe you don't see a distinction between those two.

这会改变你们的使命吗？

Like, does it change the mission at all?

这扩大了我们的使命。

It expands the mission.

一点都没有削弱。

It doesn't take away a thing.

我们主办的主要会议，萨尔非常喜爱，还有TED的媒体部分——那些免费在线分享的演讲，当然也是。

The main conference that we do, Sal, adores, and the media part of TED, the sharing of free talks online, absolutely.

我的意思是，这确实是媒体。

I mean, that that is media.

是的。

Yes.

但同时也是教育。

It's also education.

这也是人们告诉我们他们听TED演讲的原因。

It's also the reason people tell us they listen to TED Talks.

归根结底，人们是希望成为更好的自己，想多学点东西，提升自己。

At the core of it is a is a desire to be their best selves, you know, to learn more, to empower themselves.

我觉得，这其实就是教育的本质，或者说应该是这样。

I mean, that's kind of what education is or at least what it should be.

所以我觉得，这两者之间有着高度的契合。

And and so there's just there's just massive alignment, I think.

我想问问你关于它的财务方面。

I wanna ask you about the financial side of it.

TED 当然是个非营利组织，但你之前提到，当你宣布要寻找新的管理者时，说过 TED 是一个年收入一亿美元、收支平衡的机构，但你认为它需要一笔资金注入才能更上一层楼。

TED is, of course, a nonprofit, but you did say when you announced that you were looking for a new steward that you are a $100,000,000 organization that breaks even, but that you felt that the organization needed a cash infusion to take it to the next level.

是萨尔·汗在提供这笔资金吗？

Is Sal Khan providing that?

不是直接提供。

Not directly.

他不会带着支票来，但他带来的愿景足够吸引人，能为我们汇聚所需的一切资源。

He does not come with a check, but he comes with a vision that's exciting enough to bring in all the resources we need.

我完全信服这一点。

I'm completely persuaded of this.

我参与过雄心计划，也一直在为非营利组织筹措大笔资金。

I've been through the Audacious Project, I've been involved in raising significant sums for nonprofits.

这个慈善构想堪称顶尖水平。

This is a philanthropic idea that is right up there.

在这个过程中，我只想明确一下TED下一阶段可能是什么样子，

What I wanted in this process was to have just clarity of what the next chapter of TED could look like Mhmm.

谁来引领这个愿景，以及各个部分该如何整合。

And who would drive that vision and how the pieces could be put together.

愿景吸引资金。

Money follows vision.

只要你有足够远大的梦想，在当今世界，资金往往就在那里。

If you dream boldly enough, in in today's world, often the money is out there.

我得说，听到这样的好消息真让人欣慰，毕竟现在美国的氛围挺特殊的。

I I have to say it is nice to have positive news in that it's a it's a strange time in The United States.

我们看到不少非营利组织都在担心自己的身份会不会受到威胁。

We see nonprofits being worried about their status as nonprofits being in jeopardy.

我们已经看到联邦政府对科学和公共媒体的资助大幅削减。

We've seen federal funding cuts to science, to, of course, public media.

我觉得，这些领域的很多人内心都盼着慈善机构能挺身而出，填补所有空缺。

There is a sort of wish, I think, from a lot of the people in those sectors that philanthropy will step in and fill all the gaps.

但长期依赖富人的慷慨来保障优质免费信息的传播，以及满足全球最弱势群体的需求，这真的能行得通吗？

But is that the long term answered, relying on the largesse of wealthy people to make sure that we have good free information and are able to meet the needs of the most vulnerable people in the world?

曼诺，你这话里头有太多值得深挖的地方了。

There's so much to unpack from that, Manoj.

首先，我确实相信慈善在未来会发挥大得多的作用。

I mean, first of I do think that philanthropy will play a much bigger part in our future.

现在有大量私人资本正在不断积累。

There is so much private capital accumulating out there.

世界迫切需要更多想象力，去思考如何为地球做真正了不起的事。

One of the things that the world needs urgently is for more imagination to be put to work to how to do truly great things for the planet.

我觉得这些想法其实已经存在，只是还没被充分挖掘。

And I think those ideas probably exist and that they're under explored.

但就TED来说，我认为慈善资金最好的用途是打造一个能自我维持的体系。

But in the case of of certainly of TED, I think the best use of philanthropy is to build something that then becomes self sustaining.

而这一点，我们在这里已经看到了。

And and that's what we see here.

如今在教育领域投入的资金其实非常庞大。

There's actually huge amounts of money spent in education today.

其中一部分用得不当，没错。

Some of it misspent Mhmm.

你可以说，我们花了数万亿美元，去让各个年龄段的孩子为一个早已不存在的世界做准备。

You could argue, are spending trillions of dollars getting kids of all ages ready for a world that actually no longer exists.

世界变化得太快了，而教育却没能跟上。

The world is changing so fast, and education has not kept up.

如果我们能推出一些更贴近未来需求的知识产品，那将是非常有价值的内容。

And so if we could come up with offerings that offer people knowledge that is more relevant for the future that's coming, that could be very valuable knowledge.

所以我设想的未来是：TED演讲依然会免费向全球开放，但同时我们会提供一些收费的教育项目，用它们来优雅地实现组织的自我造血。

And so I think I picture a future where, yes, TED Talks will always be available for free to anywhere in the world, but that there will be educational offerings that are not free and will self fund the organization in a in a beautiful way.

是的。

Yeah.

我一直在想，你对这一切感觉怎么样？

I was wondering, like, how do you feel about all this?

一定有喜有忧吧。

It must be bittersweet.

确实如此。

It is.

不过主要是令人欣慰的。

It's mainly sweet, though.

但我还是会继续参与其中。

But, I mean, I'm gonna stay part of it.

有时候，人们就是舍不得放手。

And I think sometimes people hold on too long.

你知道的。

You know?

现在外面有一整代人，充满想法、活力和才华，过去他们本有机会得到展示的平台。

There there's there's a whole generation out there full of ideas and energy and brilliance that used to be given its its shot.

所以现在发生的就是这样的事，我觉得结果一定会很美好。

And so that's kind of what's happening here, and I think I think the result's gonna be beautiful.

说实话，这挺有意思的。

I mean, it's interesting.

人们似乎更愿意聚在一起，体验真实的互动。

People seem to want to get together in real spaces, have real experiences.

他们对虚拟的东西有点厌倦了。

They're they're kinda over the virtual thing.

你如何看待未来人们聚集在一起交流思想的趋势？

How do you see this sort of future of people coming together to exchange ideas?

有些人会说，TED大会那是给特别有钱的人办的。

You know, there are some people who say, well, well, the TED conference, that one's for really rich people.

也有人会说，谢谢你来听我的TED演讲。

And there are other people who might say, oh, you know, thanks for coming to my TED talk.

这个梗之所以流行，就是因为大家真都经历过，早就看腻了。

It it's a meme for a reason that it's it's kind of like been there, done that.

那你觉得，TED 要怎么调整自己，才能跟上当下人们真正想要的东西？

Like, how do you see what needs to happen to evolve what TED means so that it it meets this moment of what people are looking for?

首先，我觉得在人工智能的时代，人们会比以往更渴望与真实的活人面对面交流。

I mean, first of all, I do think that in the age of AI, people are gonna want actual contact with other flesh and blood human beings more than ever.

至于那些演讲本身，谢谢你来听我的 TED 演讲。

And as far as the talks themselves thank you for listening to my TED talk.

我想大多数人说这话的时候，都是带着善意的。

I guess that's I I think most people mean that affectionately.

确实，有时候 TED 演讲听起来有点像印在 T 恤上的口号。

I I guess it's definitely true that sometimes TED Talks have sounded t shirt.

你懂的。

You know?

一下子变得太多了。

It suddenly became too much.

在一些TED演讲中，人们会突然说：‘假如我告诉你……’

And and there are moments in in TED Talks where people go, what if I were to tell you?

对。

Yeah.

然后你心里想：别这样。

And you go, no.

那你要是不这么说呢？

You know, what if you didn't?

要是你不这样讲，

What if

换种方式表达会怎样？

you expressed it some other way?

其实，这种转变已经在发生了。

And so that and that actually is happening.

我们现在给演讲者最重要的建议之一就是：真实一点，新颖一点，换个角度解释，用你自己的话来说。

Like, it it we really, one of the main pieces of advice we give speakers now is to be authentic, be fresh, you know, explain something in a different way, do it in their own voice.

最近几场TED演讲中出现了很多令人惊叹的创新。

And there's been a lot of innovation in recent TED talks that just wonderful.

这确实一直是个挑战，但我们决心要进一步推动它。

So it's definitely a constant challenge, but we we want to double down on it.

归根结底，人与人之间的沟通是我们内心非常深刻的一部分。

When you actually go to the core, human to human communication is a very, very deep part of us.

我觉得这种沟通方式不会消失。

And I don't think that's going away.

事实上，随着我们在AI时代越来越珍视人性，它反而会变得更加重要。

In fact, I think as we treasure our humanness evermore in the age of AI, I think it will matter more.

克里斯，非常感谢你亲自来跟我们分享你接下来的篇章。

Well, Chris, we really appreciate you coming here to tell us directly directly about your next chapter.

我相信听众们一定会密切关注你接下来的每一步。

I have no doubt listeners will be watching this next chapter very closely.

谢谢你，克里斯。

So thank you, Chris.

非常感谢你，马尼什。

Thank you so much, Manish.

NPR的流行文化播客《It's Been a Minute》每期开头都会问三个问题。

Every episode of It's Been a Minute, NPR's What's Happening in Culture podcast starts by asking three questions.

谁？

Who?

怎么发生的？

How?

为什么是现在？

Why now?

只要文化在讨论，我们就跟着聊。

If the culture's asking it, we're talking about it.

在NPR，我们支持你保持好奇，尽情探索文化话题。

At NPR, we stand for your right to be curious and indulge your cultural curiosity.

无论你在哪个平台听播客，都关注《It's Been a Minute》，我们会帮你拆解那些刷爆你动态的热门话题。

Follow It's Been A Minute wherever you get your podcasts, and we'll break down the zeitgeisty topics that are filling your feed.