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你指望防晒霜来保护皮肤，但瓶子上的SPF值可能并不像宣传的那样准确。
You count on sunscreen to protect your skin, but that SPF rating on the bottle might not be exactly as advertised.
所以同一个SPF 50的产品，在不同的实验室测出来可能就变成SPF 30了。
So you can measure an SPF 50 at one lab and SPF 30 at another.
在《周日故事》里，我们是不是该更新一下防晒指南了？
On the Sunday story, is it time to update sunscreen guidance?
现在就在NPR应用上收听《Up First》播客的《周日故事》。
Listen now to the Sunday story from the Up First podcast on the NPR app.
这
This
就是TED广播时间。
is the TED Radio Hour.
每周，都有开创性的TED演讲。
Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks.
我们现在的工作就是大胆梦想。
Our job now is to dream big.
在TED大会上发表。
Delivered at TED conferences.
为了创造我们想看到的未来。
To bring about the future we want to see.
在世界各地。
Around the world.
去理解我们是谁。
To understand who we are.
从这些演讲中，我们为你带来会让你惊喜的演讲者和想法。
From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you.
你永远不知道会发现什么。
You just don't know what you're gonna find.
挑战你。
Challenge you.
我们真的必须
We truly have to
问问自己，为什么这件事值得关注？
ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy?
甚至能改变你。
And even change you.
我真的觉得自己像变了一个人。
I literally feel like I'm a different person.
是的。
Yes.
你有这种感觉吗？
Do you feel that way?
值得传播的想法。
Ideas worth spreading.
来自TED和NPR。
From Ted and NPR.
我是Manoj Zumarodi，今天节目从一段关系中的冲突开始。
I'm Manoj Zumarodi, and today's show starts with conflict in a relationship.
所以当我搬到温哥华时，我和我的男朋友克里斯住在一起，他是气候变化的热情倡导者，这一点我非常尊重。
So when I moved to Vancouver, I lived with my boyfriend, Chris, and he was a passionate advocate for climate change, which I really respected.
但说实话，这让他变得很难相处。
But honestly, it made him pretty hard to live with.
这位是社会心理学家伊丽莎白·邓恩。
This is social psychologist Elizabeth Dunn.
比如，当我离开房间时，如果我没有关掉所有的灯，他就会用那种令人不悦的眼神看我，好像在说，你为什么讨厌地球？
For one thing, when I left a room, if I if I didn't turn off all the lights, he would shoot me this withering look, like, why do you hate the earth?
你知道吗？
You know?
啊。
Arch.
有很多那种羞辱的感觉。
There was a lot of sort of shaming.
所以我就把那种不够好、达不到高标准的感觉和气候变化运动联系在了一起。
And so I kind of associated that feeling of not being good enough, of not living up to this high standard with the climate change movement.
说实话，我觉得这让我很长时间都没参与进去。
And, honestly, I think that kept me outside of it for a long time.
莉兹的感觉和很多人一样，觉得过环保的生活是不可能的，而且像她前男友那样的气候斗士只会让我们对自己的习惯感到内疚，根本不想去想地球变暖的事。
Liz felt like a lot of us do, that it's impossible to live an environmentally friendly life and that climate warriors like her ex just make us feel bad about our habits and not want to think about the warming planet at all.
但莉兹和同事、气候专家张昭聊过之后，看法就完全不一样了。张昭，简称杰伊·Z。
But Liz started to see things very differently when she talked to a colleague at work, climate expert, Zhang Zhao, who goes by Jay Z for short.
我了解到，其实克里斯的那些责备眼神是错位的。
I learned that, you know, Chris's shaming looks were actually misplaced.
她帮我算了一下，我可以在我的两居室公寓里一辈子不关灯，产生的碳排放量也就相当于吃13个汉堡。
She calculated for me that I could leave the lights on in my two bedroom condo for the rest of my life, and the carbon emissions cost would be equivalent to eating 13 hamburgers.
天哪。
My gosh.
你是在
Are you
开玩笑吗？
kidding me?
现在关键的是这个。
Now here's the thing.
你从哪里获得能源，这是一个非常重要的问题。
Where you get your energy is a very important question.
但如果你住在一个使用清洁能源的地方，那么开着灯这个选择其实就没那么重要了。
But if you live in a place with clean energy, then the choice to kind of leave your lights on just doesn't matter that much.
而且，有些人对我生气，因为他们觉得关灯非常重要。
And, again, some people have gotten mad at me because they're like, it's so important to turn the lights off.
比如，开着灯会让我觉得不舒服。
Like, it's gonna bother me to leave the lights on.
我并不是说从现在开始你就必须一直开着灯。
And I I am not saying you you've gotta leave the lights on from now on.
当然，如果关灯让你感到满足，那就关灯吧。
Like, by all means, if if it gives you a sense of satisfaction to turn lights off, turn those lights off.
那挺好的。
That's great.
但别因为别人没关灯就去指责他们，也对自己宽容一点。
But don't shame other people for not turning the lights off and show yourself some compassion.
如果你刚跑出家门，发现灯还亮着，那也没关系。
If you just ran out of the house and realize the lights are still on, that's okay.
这真的没那么重要。
It's not gonna matter that much.
事实上，很多我们被告知非常重要的事情，当你真正去算一下，就会发现其实挺微不足道的。
And in fact, so many of the things that we've been told are really important just turn out to be pretty trivial when you really do the math.
不过话说回来，有些事情确实很重要。
That said, other things really do matter.
所以，当我了解到这一点后，我就想弄清楚，好吧。
And so one of the things that I wanted to figure out once I learned this, I wanted to figure out, okay.
那到底什么重要，什么不重要呢？
So what really matters and what doesn't?
我们能不能放下那些不重要的事情，专注于那些影响更大的行动，找到那些真正让我们感觉好的事情呢？
And can we just let those things go that don't matter and focus on those higher impact actions and find the ones that actually make us feel good?
气候变化这个话题已经让人沮丧到不想谈论，更别说采取行动了，这让Liz非常困扰，因为她是一位非常知名的幸福研究专家，在不列颠哥伦比亚大学花了二十多年时间研究哪些习惯能带给我们更多的满足感和快乐。
The idea that climate change has gotten too depressing to talk about, much less act on, really bothered Liz because she is a very well known happiness researcher who has spent more than two decades at the University of British Columbia studying which habits bring us more contentment and joy.
幸福就像是自然界的强化剂。
Happiness is kind of nature's reinforcer.
所以如果我们能改变自己的行为，让自己感觉更好，我们就更有可能坚持下去。
So if we can change our behavior in a way that actually makes us feel better, we are gonna be much more likely to stick with it.
所以今天在节目中，我们来聊聊关心环境如何让我们更快乐，从我们选择吃的食物，到出行方式，再到花钱的方式。
So today on the show, how caring for the environment can make us happier from the foods we choose to eat to the way we travel to how we spend our money.
一些具体的习惯已经被证明既对地球有益，也对我们的满足感有好处。
Specific habits that have been shown to be both good for the planet and good for our own contentment.
这就是《别关灯》这本书的核心观点，由Liz Dunn和她的同事Jay Z共同撰写，书中探讨了快乐的决策如何拯救我们的物种。
It's the premise behind the book, leave the lights on, how joyful decisions can save our species by Liz Dunn and her colleague, Jay z.
他们认为，这种对气候变化更积极的新态度，可以不再让个人觉得他们对阻止全球变暖无能为力，而是让他们感到更有力量去采取真正有意义的行动。
They believe that this new, more positive approach to climate change can stop making individuals feel like there's nothing they can possibly do to stop global warming and make them feel more empowered to take actions that actually matter.
在我们深入探讨你发现的内容之前，我们能聊聊人们对谈论气候变化的态度发生了怎样的变化吗？
Before we get into sort of what you discovered, can can we talk about how sentiment towards talking about climate change has changed?
我觉得有那么一个时期，大概几年前吧，气候问题到处都是。
I feel like there was this moment, maybe, I don't know, a few years back where climate was everywhere.
每个人都在谈论它。
Everyone was talking about it.
而现在，说实话，记者们被告知，标题里别写“气候”这个词，因为没人会点进去。
And now, honestly, journalists are told, do not put the word climate in your headline because people won't click it.
你甚至在致谢里提到，有位图书编辑跟你说，是啊，关于气候的书卖不出去。
And you even say in your acknowledgments that a book editor said to you, yeah, books about climate don't sell.
气候在公众心目中的形象到底怎么了？
What is going on with the public image of climate?
是不是太让人沮丧了？
Is it just too depressing?
我觉得对人们来说确实变得太压抑了。
I think that it did get too depressing for people.
人们觉得自己已经知道这件事了。
People felt like they're aware of it.
所以我觉得，你知道，我会把2010年代称为气候变化传播的悲观绝望时代。
So I think, you know, I would call, the twenty tens maybe the doom and gloom era of climate change communication.
问题是，这确实引起了人们的注意。
And the thing is that it got people's attention.
所以我觉得，专注于吓唬人，谈论一切有多糟糕，确实让人们在某段时间内坐直了听。
So I think the focus on kind of scaring people and talking about how, you know, awful everything was made people sit up and listen for a period of time.
但问题是，悲观绝望的信息不一定能激励行动。
But the problem is doom and gloom messaging doesn't necessarily motivate action.
负面情绪时间长了会让人疲惫。
Negative emotions get exhausting over time.
所以有一项非常了不起的全球大型研究，调查了来自63个不同国家的6万名参与者，测试了11种旨在促进气候变化行动的干预措施。
So there was a really incredible global mega study looking at 60,000 participants from 63 different countries and testing 11 interventions that were all designed to promote action on climate change.
其中一条信息就是传统的悲观绝望式信息，讲气候变化有多可怕，一切会有多糟糕。
Now one of these messages was kind of a traditional doom and gloom message about how terrible climate change is and how bad everything's gonna be.
乍一看，这条信息似乎效果很好。
And at first glance, it looks like that message worked really well.
这是人们最可能在社交媒体上分享的信息之一。
It was one of the messages that people were most likely to share on social media.
然而，这种悲观绝望的信息实际上削弱了人们采取更费力行动的意愿。
However, this doom and gloom message actually undermined people's willingness to take a more effortful form of action.
所以人们开始不听了，这对我来说并不意外。
So it's not surprising to me that people started to tune out.
他们觉得，我知道你要说什么。
They felt like, I know what you're gonna say.
我真的不想再听一遍了。
I don't really wanna hear this again.
我觉得这让我们处于一个人们真的不想谈论气候变化的时刻，他们几乎只想假装它没有发生，或者也许认为这不是我们个人需要关心的责任。
And I think that has left us in a moment where people really don't wanna talk about climate change and almost just wanna pretend that it's not happening or perhaps that it's not our responsibility as individuals to care.
如果反正一切都会很糟糕，为什么还要费劲去行动呢？
If everything's gonna be terrible anyway, why bother taking action?
对吧？
Right?
那我们就来聊聊这本书吧。
Let's dive into the book then.
这一切都是从你的一次骑车开始的。
It all starts with a bike ride for you.
给我们描述一下当时的情景吧，带我们回到那个时刻，说说你发现了什么。
Set the scene, if you would, and and take us there and what you discovered.
我当时正骑车去上班。
So I was biking to work.
那是一个阳光明媚的秋日。
It was a sunny autumn day.
我正享受着骑行的乐趣，但脑子里也在想着气候变化，你懂的。
I was enjoying my bike ride, but I was also thinking about climate change as you do.
我想到，我毕生研究幸福，却对我们这个时代最重要的生存挑战毫无帮助，这真让人沮丧。
And I was thinking how it's kind of a bummer that my life's work on happiness had no bearing whatsoever on what I believe is the most important existential challenge of our time.
然后我开始琢磨骑车这件事。
Then I started thinking about biking.
我骑自行车上班，因为比起开车，我骑车到公司时心情会好很多。
So I bike to work because I arrive in a much better mood than if I drive my car.
但当然，骑自行车也是最环保的出行方式之一。
But, of course, biking is also one of the most sustainable forms of transportation.
然后我突然意识到，其实我们个人和社会为了应对气候变化需要做的很多事情，对我们的幸福感也有好处。
And then it kind of dawned on me that, in fact, so many of the things that we need to do as individuals and as societies in order to tackle climate change are also good for our happiness.
所以我一到公司，就直奔我的同事JZ那里。
So when I got to work, I made a beeline for my colleague, JZ.
她是全球研究气候变化行为方面的顶尖专家之一。
She's one of the world's leading experts on the behavioral side of climate change.
她在我们朋友中间也被称为“人体碳计算器”，因为她几乎知道我们做的每件事的碳排放量。
She's also known among our friends as the human carbon calculator because she knows the carbon emissions of basically everything we do.
所以我就把这个想法一股脑儿地跟她说了。
So I kind of spilled out this idea to her.
我可能当时眼神里带着点疯狂，因为我对这个想法特别兴奋。
I probably had a little bit of a crazy look in my eye because I was so excited about this idea.
但她后来告诉我，她当时突然灵光一现，意识到幸福可能才是对抗气候变化时缺失的那件武器。
But she told me later that she had kind of a light bulb moment where she realized that happiness might be the missing weapon in the fight against climate change.
从那天起，我们就真的开始合作，努力寻找我们所说的“甜蜜点”。
And from that day forward, we really started working together to try to find what we call sweet spots.
也就是人们可以做出的行为改变，这些改变不仅能帮助应对气候变化，还能让他们更幸福。
So behavioral changes that people can make that not only help tackle climate change, but also make them happier.
那为什么是行为改变呢？
So why behavioral changes?
为什么不是，比如说，通过政策引导来推动改变呢？
Why not, I don't know, nudge for policy change?
有一种观点认为，这个问题应该由政府和企业来解决，个人没什么作用。
So there's this notion that governments and businesses need to deal with this problem, and individuals have no role to play.
我觉得政府和企业确实有巨大的责任来解决这个问题，但我们每个人也都有自己的一份作用。
And I think governments and businesses have an enormous responsibility to tackle this problem, but all of us have a role to play too.
而且，实际上，联合国政府间气候变化专门委员会指出，个人行为改变可以减少全球排放量的40%到70%。
And in fact, the International Panel on Climate Change says individual behavior change can reduce global emissions by 40 to 70%.
换句话说，在碳减排方面能做出的贡献中，大约有一半可以来自个人行动。
So in other words, about half of the difference that could be made in carbon reduction can come from individual action.
而且我觉得，当我们让人们觉得自己没有角色可扮演时，这反而会让他们失去动力。
So I also think that it disempowers people when we make them feel like they have no role to play.
就好像，这完全取决于政府和企业的行动。
Like, it's just up to governments and businesses.
然后，如果碰巧你所在国家的政府没有把气候变化作为优先事项，那你就没什么可做的，只能坐等几年，等到下一次联邦选举时再去投票。
And then, you know, if it happens to be the case, the government of your country is not prioritizing climate change, then there's just nothing for you to do except maybe sit back and wait a few years till you can vote in a federal election again.
我觉得给人们传递这样的信息是错误的。
And I think that's the wrong message to give people.
这在事实上是错误的，而且会让人失去动力。
It's factually wrong, and it's disempowering.
好的。
Okay.
我想稍微反驳一下。
I wanna push back a little bit.
我们知道是英国石油公司，也就是BP，推动了每个人都有自己的碳足迹这个概念，而且每个人都可以自己计算碳足迹。
We know that it was BP, British Petroleum, that sort pushed this concept of every person having a carbon footprint and that each individual can calculate it for themselves.
有些人说，这是能源行业试图把责任从自己身上转移到个人身上。
There are some people who say that this was an attempt by the energy sector to shift the responsibility to individuals off of them.
我的意思是，这种情况我们一次又一次地看到。
I mean, we see that time and time again.
那么，现在对于像我这样的小人物，做点什么到底能不能产生影响，大家是怎么想的呢？
So so what is the thinking right now of where actually doing something as little old me makes a difference.
比如，我就想到，今天早上去咖啡店，那里有个牌子写着：如果你需要吸管，请向店员索取。
Like, I just think of you know, I went to the coffee shop this morning, and it said there was a sign that said, if you'd like a straw, please ask for one.
我觉得我们现在都不怎么讨论吸管有多糟糕了。
And I feel like we don't even talk about, like, straws are terrible.
现在这只是一个选择问题。
Now it's just a choice.
但实际上，这并不会带来什么改变。
But, like, it does not make a difference.
那这条线到底在哪儿呢？就是说，感觉自己是个好公民，跟真正为减少污染或者保护地球做出贡献，这两者之间的界限在哪里？
What what where is that line of, like, you know, feeling like a being a good citizen versus actually contributing to lessening or or or protecting our planet?
我觉得我们作为个人，被告知要做的很多所谓“环保”的事情，或者是为了应对气候变化而做的事情，其实确实都是些小事。
So I think many of the things that we as individuals have been told we should do in order to be good environmentalists or to talk climate change are indeed trivial.
比如说，你选不选那根吸管，其实不会产生多大的影响。
So for example, the straw that you choose is not going to have a massive impact.
但是确实有一些事情，我们做了之后是真的有意义的。
But there are other things we can do that genuinely do matter.
而且我觉得，这里的问题一部分在于，确实是英国石油公司，就是那个石油天然气公司，最早提出了“碳足迹”这个概念。
And I I think that part of the problem here is that indeed, you know, BP, the oil and gas company, was behind the original carbon footprint notion.
这其实是一个精心策划的举动，目的是把责任从大企业身上转移到个人身上。
And it was a calculated attempt to shift the blame from, you know, big businesses onto individuals.
所以这就让“个人行动”这个概念带上了一种污名，但即便如此，个人行动仍然可以产生影响。
And so that's left the idea of sort of individual action with this kind of taint, but it's still the case that individual actions can matter.
举个例子，我们需要政府来建设安全的主动交通基础设施。
So as one example, you know, we need governments to build safe infrastructure for active transportation.
所以我们需要政府修建自行车道，但也需要个人骑上自行车去使用这些车道。
So we need governments to build bike lanes, but we also need individuals to get on their bikes and use those bike lanes.
对。
Mhmm.
所以这真的是一个既要又要的情况，我们需要政府采取行动，然后需要个人去响应。
So it's really a yes and kind of situation where we need governments to take action, but then we need individuals to respond.
这真的是一种相互促进的循环。
And and it's really a kind of reinforcing cycle.
所以那种把个人排除在外的想法对我来说完全没有道理，因为我们的选择不仅仅影响自己，还能影响他人。
And so the notion that we can take individuals out of the equation just makes no sense to me because our choices go beyond our own individual action and can influence others.
我们稍后回来，继续和作家兼社会心理学家伊丽莎白·邓恩的对话。
When we come back, more with author and social psychologist Elizabeth Dunn.
我们会深入探讨，为什么多吃枫糖浆对地球有好处，以及为什么你应该放心地享受那趟直飞航班。
We'll get into the nitty gritty, why eating more maple syrup is good for the planet, and why you should go ahead and treat yourself to that nonstop flight.
我是马努莎·扎莫罗迪，你正在收听NPR的TED广播时间。
I'm Manousha Zamorodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.
请继续收听。
Stay with us.
这条消息来自Grainger。
This message comes from Grainger.
对于那些把事情搞定的人，Grainger提供你需要的专业级产品，帮你完成任务。
For the ones who get it done, Grainger offers the professional grade products you need to get the job done.
快速配送，还有技术产品专家随时帮你应对各种挑战。
With fast delivery and access to technical product experts ready to help you meet any challenge.
打电话、点击grainger.com，或者直接到店。
Call, click grainger.com, or just stop by.
这条消息来自Pure Insurance。
This message comes from Pure Insurance.
选购房屋保险时，评论和价格通常是常见的考虑因素。
When shopping for home insurance, reviews and prices are common considerations.
但保单背后公司的动机呢？
But what about the motivations of the company behind the policy?
Pure保险的动力来自它的会员。
Pure Insurance is motivated by its members.
这指导着Pure每天所做的决定，包括公司表现好时谁受益。
That guides the decisions Pure makes every day, including who benefits when the company does well.
到目前为止，已有近1.7亿美元分配给了会员。
To date, nearly a 170,000,000 has been allocated to members.
了解更多信息，看看会员资格意味着什么，请访问pureinsurance.com。
Learn more and see what membership means at pureinsurance.com.
Privilege承保人互惠交易所。
Privilege underwriters reciprocal exchange.
本周的新闻人物节目中，经过十多年的喜剧生涯
This week on newsmakers, after more than a decade in comedy
我不确定我们能走到这一步。
I wasn't sure that we would get here.
Robbie Hoffman无所畏惧，嗯，
Robbie Hoffman is fearless Well,
我有一点感觉。
I had a small feeling
我没想到，哦。
I wasn't oh.
而且完全是她自己。
And fully herself.
我的房东。
My landlord.
喂？
Hello?
你可以直接冲水。
You can go ahead and flush.
嗯，我现在不在家。
Well, I'm not home now.
我在忙别的事。
I'm doing something.
我们和罗比·霍夫曼一起在NPR的《新闻人物》节目中探讨喜剧与成功。
We plunge into comedy and success with Robbie Hoffman on NPR's Newsmakers.
对很多人来说，做饭有时是每天的烦恼。
For a lot of us, cooking can sometimes be a daily annoyance.
但当你的生活突然崩溃，做饭成了你唯一的依靠时，会发生什么？
But what happens when your life blows up and cooking becomes your only lifeline?
在本周的《一分钟过去了》节目中，厨师、主持人兼《食物即感受》一书的作者卡拉·洛利，讲述了写作和烹饪如何帮助她走出长达数十年的婚姻。
On this week's It's Been a Minute, Carla Lolli, chef, presenter, and author of Food is a Feeling, tells us about how writing and cooking got her through ending her decades long marriage.
在NPR应用或YouTube上观看或收听《一分钟过去了》。
Watch or listen to it's been a minute on the NPR app or YouTube.
嘿，你好。
Hey there.
如果你喜欢这个节目，我想请你帮个忙。
If you are loving this show, then I have a favor to ask of you.
你介意在收听的地方给我们留个评价吗？
Would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen?
就像这位克莱尔说的，TED广播时间是从全球最聪明的人那里获取知识和见解的好方法。
Like this one from Claire who says, TED Radio Hour is a great way to gain knowledge and insights from the brightest minds on the planet.
这是我在公路旅行或追完犯罪剧之间必听的播客。
This is my go to podcast when I'm road tripping or between true crime binges.
谢谢你，克莱尔。
Thank you, Claire.
也请考虑给我们留个评分或评论吧。
Please consider leaving a rating or a review of your own.
这样能帮助更多人找到我们。
It helps more people find us.
好的。
Okay.
回到节目中来。
Back to the show.
这里是NPR的TED广播时间。
It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR.
我是马努什·扎莫罗迪。
I'm Manouche Zamorodi.
今天节目里，我们要和伊丽莎白·邓恩聊聊。
On the show today, we're talking to Elizabeth Dunn.
她是一位社会心理学家，也是新书《让灯亮着：快乐的决定如何拯救我们的物种》的合著者。
She is a social psychologist and co author of the new book, Leave the Lights On, How Joyful Decisions Can Save Our Species.
丽兹和她的合作者张昭（大家叫他Jay Z）说，如果我们专注于那些既对气候有重大影响又能带来快乐的行为，我们就能坚持这些习惯。
Liz and her collaborator, Zhang Zhao, who goes by Jay Z, say that by focusing on high impact climate actions that also bring us joy, we will stick with those habits.
这样我们就能避免疲惫，从长远来看也能帮助地球。
We will avoid burnout and help the planet in the long run.
我们来深入聊聊这个话题。
Let's dig into that.
我们先从食物开始吧，还有你那个我最喜欢、最美味的建议——枫糖浆不仅超级好吃，而且对地球也有好处。
Should we start off with food and, my favorite, most delicious tip of yours, which is that maple syrup is actually good for the planet in addition to being extremely tasty.
枫糖浆就像是应对气候变化的魔法灵药，因为我们的枫树种植越多，它们从空气中吸收的碳就越多。
So maple syrup is like the magical elixir of climate change in the sense that the more maple syrup trees we have in production, the more carbon they're sucking out of the air.
而且，你知道，作为加拿大人，我有法律义务鼓励大家去找魁北克的枫糖浆，尤其是那种对减少碳排放特别有好处的。
And, you know, as a Canadian, I am legally obligated to encourage people to seek out Quebec maple syrup, which in particular has this really great profile of actually reducing carbon.
而且，这里有个很酷的点。
And and here's the cool thing.
如果你每天只吃一茶匙枫糖浆，就能让一棵新的枫树投入生产。
If you have just a teaspoon of maple syrup a day, you can put a whole other maple tree into production.
我们拿巧克力来对比一下，不幸的是，巧克力对地球不太友好。
Let's contrast that to chocolate, which unfortunately not great for the planet.
你其实做过一个研究，关于怎么负责任地享受巧克力。
You did a study actually about how one can responsibly enjoy chocolate.
你能跟我们讲讲吗？
Can you tell us about that?
作为研究幸福感的学者，我买很多巧克力。
So as a happiness researcher, I buy a lot of chocolate.
这是研究愉悦感的好方法。
It's a great way to study pleasure.
在一个实验里，我们把学生请进实验室，让他们吃一点巧克力。
And in one experiment, we brought students into the lab and asked them to eat a little bit of chocolate.
我们观察他们，还让他们填写问卷，报告吃巧克力的享受程度。
We observed them, and we had them fill out surveys about their enjoyment of the chocolate.
然后我们礼貌地请一组学生在一整个星期内不要吃任何巧克力。
Then we politely asked one group of students to please refrain from eating any chocolate for one whole week.
与此同时，我们给另一组学生一大袋巧克力，让他们在接下来的一周里尽量多吃，只要自己觉得舒服就行。
Meanwhile, we sent other students home with a big bag of chocolate and asked them to eat as much as they comfortably could over the ensuing week.
最后，我们还有一个对照组，他们没有收到任何特别的巧克力相关指示。
And finally, we had a control group that just didn't get any special chocolate related instructions.
一周后，我们把所有人再次请回实验室，又一次让他们吃一点巧克力。
Then we brought everybody back into the lab a week later and once again asked them to eat a little bit of chocolate.
数据中首先跳出来的结果是，人们在实验室里吃巧克力的享受程度，第二周比第一周要低。
Now the first thing that popped out of the data is that people enjoyed eating chocolate in our lab less the second week than they did the first week.
这就像是人类体验中一个令人遗憾的现实，被浓缩在了这一项研究里。
And this is like the sad reality of the human experience encapsulated in a single study.
当我们重复一种愉悦的体验时，往往会觉得它没那么好吃了。
When we repeat a pleasurable experience, we tend to enjoy it a little bit less.
但这里有一个重要的例外。
But there was this important exception.
那些被要求暂时戒掉巧克力的学生，反而更能细细品味巧克力，真正欣赏它，从中获得更多乐趣。
So students who had been asked to temporarily give up chocolate exhibited this enhanced capacity to savor it, to really appreciate it and reap enjoyment from it.
所以这告诉我们，拥有我们喜欢的高碳食物，
So what this tells us is that having high carbon foods that we enjoy
比如巧克力。
Like chocolate.
比如巧克力。
Like chocolate.
偶尔少吃一点这些高碳食物，反而能增强我们品味它们的能力。
Having these high carbon foods we enjoy a little less often can actually enhance our capacity to savor them.
所以我已经把这一点用在了牛排上。
So I've put this into practice with steak.
我得承认，作为一个写过气候变化书的人，我真的很喜欢吃牛排。
I will admit, as somebody who wrote a book on climate change, I really enjoy steak.
传统的建议可能会说，我得放弃牛排。
Now the traditional advice would be I need to give up steak.
但相反，我做的不是戒掉它，而是从经常吃、规律吃，几乎当成日常晚餐，变成偶尔犒劳自己。
But instead, what I do is I I went from having it pretty often, pretty regularly, kind of as a habitual dinner to having it as a treat.
而当我吃的时候，我比以前经常吃的时候更享受。
And when I have it, I really enjoy it in a way that I did not when I was having it more regularly.
我很好奇。
I am curious.
当你提到牛排这样的东西时，我奇怪地想到了政治。
When you mention something like steak, I think, oddly, of politics.
因为我觉得，从我观察到的来看，你知道，“红肉共和党人”这个说法是存在的。
Because I feel like so what from what I've observed is that people you know, red meat Republicans is something that is a phrase.
对吧？
Right?
那当一个习惯跟政策挂钩的时候，你怎么开始去弥合这种分歧呢？
So how do you begin to bridge that divide when a habit becomes associated with a policy?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得气候变化已经变成了一个非常两极分化的问题，至少在美国是这样。
So I would say climate change has become a very polarizing issue, at least in The United States.
相比之下，对幸福的追求是普遍的。
In contrast, the desire for happiness is universal.
所以人们搜索“怎么才能幸福”的次数其实比“怎么才能变富”还多。
So people actually Google how to be happy even more often than how to get rich.
所以这也是为什么我们想在气候变化这个话题里把幸福放在中心位置，因为这样能吸引更多人参与进来。
So that's one of the reasons that we really wanna center happiness in this conversation about climate change because it draws more people in.
所以我觉得提倡自我克制并不是一个有效的策略。
So I don't think that promoting self denial is a winning strategy.
而且当我们把环境政策跟一种“你必须放弃你喜欢的东西”或者“你得通过一系列特定的选择来展示你的政治立场”这种观念绑在一起的时候，我觉得那是个失败的策略。
And when we make environmental policy be tied to this sense that you have to give up things that you enjoy or that somehow you need to display your political identity by making this very specific set of choices, I think it's a losing strategy.
我想对比一下，你知道，就是三四年前那种人造肉行业，当时还挺火的。
I guess I would contrast that, which is, you know, the alternative meat industry that was sort of, like, taking off three, four years ago.
但现在好像不太行了。
It has kind of not taken off anymore.
实际上，它正在走下坡路。
It is tanking, in fact.
你觉得这跟它被视为某种……怎么说呢，有关吗？
Do you think that's related, that it was seen as some sort of I don't know.
人们觉得是在自我克制，或者被视为那种‘哦，那些左派嬉皮士吃假肉’的感觉。
The people were denying themselves, or it was seen as like, oh, those lefty hippies who eat their fake meat.
你觉得这该怎么解释？
Like, what what do you account that for?
我觉得假肉就是不太好吃。
I mean, I just think fake meat is not that delicious.
可能只是我这么觉得。
Maybe that's me.
不仅如此，Beyond Meat的汉堡在碳排放方面其实也不怎么样。
Not only that, Beyond Meatburgers actually aren't that great in terms of carbon emissions.
所以，从碳排放的角度来看，吃一个培根生菜番茄三明治比吃Beyond Meat的汉堡还要好。
So you would be better off eating a BLT than a Beyond Meat burger in terms of carbon emissions.
所以我们给书里关于食物的那一章起名叫‘为培根辩护’，因为培根其实并不是碳排放特别高的食物。
So we actually entitled our chapter on food in defense of bacon because bacon is actually not, like, a super high carbon emissions food.
它很好吃，而且只需要用一点点就够了。
It's very delicious, and you can use just a little bit of it.
比如，一片培根，撒在抱子甘蓝上，就能让那些抱子甘蓝好吃很多。
So, like, one strip of bacon, like, sprinkled over some brussels sprouts makes those brussels sprouts so much better.
所以，我还是觉得我们不应该把追求快乐和应对气候变化对立起来，因为这两者其实是完全可以兼容的生活方式。
And so, again, I don't think we should be pitting the desire for pleasure against the desire to fight climate change because, really, these are compatible approaches to life.
我们能回到之前提到的那个点吗？就是关于个人行动是否真的能带来改变。
Can we just touch back on the point we we mentioned earlier about individual action and whether it makes a difference.
因为我能想象有人会说：‘不是吧，大姐？’
Because I can imagine someone's like, seriously, lady?
你是想让我吃个培根三明治，然后告诉我这是在拯救地球吗？
You want me to eat a bacon sandwich and tell me that that's saving the planet?
但这些行为改变在减少全球排放方面到底能起到多大作用呢？
But how do these behavioral changes add up in terms of reducing global emissions?
我们清楚吗？
Do we know?
所以，个人的选择，虽然每一个单独来看不一定能产生巨大影响——你今天午餐吃什么不会决定人类的未来——但确实，我们所有人一直在做的所有这些小选择，是会累积起来的。
So individual choices, while each one, you know, doesn't necessarily make a massive difference, so your lunch choice today is not going to determine the future of humanity, it is the case that all of these little choices that we're all making all the time kind of add up.
而且不仅如此，我们做出的选择实际上还能影响别人做出的选择，这种影响方式可能是我们完全想象不到的。
And not only that, but the choices that we make can actually influence the choices other people make in ways we would probably never imagine.
说到食物这块，我最喜欢的一个小研究其实是我在英属哥伦比亚大学的同事们做的。
So thinking about this in the area of food, one of my favorite little studies on this was actually done by my colleagues at the University of British Columbia.
我们校园里有个小咖啡馆，每天午餐都有素食主菜和肉类主菜两种选择。
So we have this little cafe on our campus where each day there's a vegetarian entree and a meat entree available for lunch.
我的同事们做的就是偷偷观察人们点午餐时的选择。
And what my colleagues did was just to surreptitiously observe people placing their lunch orders.
所以人们就在食堂排队点午餐。
So people are just standing in line at this cafeteria placing their lunch order.
他们发现，有72%的时候，人们会点跟前面那个陌生人一模一样的菜。
What they discovered was that 72 of the time, people ordered the exact same dish as the random stranger standing in front of them.
他点什么我就点什么。
I'll have what he's having.
没错。
Exactly.
嗯嗯。
Uh-huh.
对吧？
Right?
所以这意味着，你自己那个小小的举动，比如选素食主菜，其实会影响你后面的人。
And so what this means is that your own little action of, like, choosing that vegetarian entree is actually influencing the person behind you.
我觉得是
And what I think is
这个城市最棒的一点就是，如果你是想做环保选择的人，想多选素食，你不需要跟朋友说教，也不用跟他们讲世界末日什么的。
cool about this city is, like, if you're somebody who you're trying to make pro climate choices, you're trying to choose more vegetarian food, you don't need to lecture your friends about this or talk to them about how the world's gonna end.
只要服务员过来问，您准备好点餐了吗？
Just when the waiter comes over and says, you know, are you ready to order?
你就说好，然后先点你的素食。
You just say yes and, like, place your vegetarian order first.
后面的人就更有可能跟着你学。
Other people are then gonna be more likely to copy you.
我们能聊聊其他习惯吗？
Can we shift to other habits?
我们已经聊了很多关于吃的。
We've talked a lot about food.
咱们来聊聊购物吧。
Let's talk about shopping in general.
我知道很多人常说，至少在我住的那片儿，就是，哦，我从亚马逊上买的，然后他们就用那种很尴尬的眼神看着你。
One of the things that I know people say often, at least in my neighborhood, is like, oh, I ordered it from Amazon, and then they sort of look at you stricken.
我知道这样很不好，但我还是这么做了。
Like, I know that's really bad, but I did it anyway.
我真是个糟糕的人。
I'm a terrible person.
这是真的吗？
Is that true?
网上购物真的对环境有害吗？
Is ordering online terrible for the environment?
我们先不谈
Let let's leave
垄断、大科技公司，以及人们对杰夫·贝索斯的看法，但单从环境角度来说。
aside monopoly, big tech companies, and whatever people think about Jeff Bezos, but actually for the environment.
所以，认为网上购物天生对环境有害是个误区。
So the idea that ordering online is inherently bad for the environment is a myth.
事实上，与开车去各个商店购物相比，网上购物可以减少一半的碳排放。
In fact, online shopping can actually cut emissions in half compared to driving around to all the stores that you need to go to.
不过有个例外，如果网购让我们买了不需要的东西，那就成问题了，而且我们还得尽量减少退货。
The the exception there is that online shopping could be a problem if it spurs us to buy things that we don't need, and we wanna minimize returns.
所以如果你在网上买七条牛仔裤，试穿后再退掉六条，那就不太好了。
So it's not so great if you're ordering, like, seven pairs of jeans online, trying them on, and then returning six of them.
那会是个问题，因为大部分退回去的牛仔裤其实不会再被卖出去。
So that's gonna be a problem because most of those jeans are are actually not gonna get resold.
但只要你网购的东西都留着用，那其实是个挺高效的策略。
But as long as you are ordering things online and keeping them and using them, then that's actually a pretty efficient strategy.
原因在于，网上配送服务通常使用效率很高的车辆和路线。
And the reason for this is that online delivery services typically use highly efficient vehicles and highly efficient routes.
所以他们在运送这些商品方面，其实比我们自己做得更好。
So they're actually doing a better job of getting these goods around than we would probably do ourselves.
而且如果你得开车去不同的商店，那就更是如此了。
And this is especially true, again, if you have to drive around to different stores.
如果你特别幸运，住在一个步行很方便的社区，走路就能买到所有需要的东西，那当然是个很棒的办法。
If you happen to be so lucky as to live in a highly walkable neighborhood where you can just walk to everything, get everything that you need that way, I mean, of course, that's gonna be an awesome strategy.
但对很多美国人来说，他们需要开车去买所需的东西，其实让这些东西送上门来会更好。
But for so many Americans who need to get in their cars to buy the things that they need, it would actually be better to let those things come to you.
既然我们聊到了花钱这个话题，你最有名的发现之一是关于花钱带来的幸福感，不是给自己买东西，而是把钱花在别人身上，把钱送出去。
While we are on the subject of how we spend our money, one of your best known findings is on the happiness that comes from spending money, not on buying things for ourselves, but actually spending money on other people and giving it away.
你能跟我们讲讲这个发现吗？
Can you remind us about that finding?
因为我觉得，我们总是需要这样的提醒。
Because I well, we could all always use that reminder.
对。
Yeah.
所以我的研究表明，人们把钱用在帮助别人上，比用在自己身上，能获得更多的幸福感。
So my research suggests that people actually get more happiness from using money to benefit others than to benefit themselves.
在我们最早的一项关于这个主题的研究中，我们带着现金，在我们英属哥伦比亚大学美丽的校园里，直接走到人们面前，递给他们5美元或20美元的钞票，让他们在当天结束前花掉。
And in one of our earliest studies on this topic, we actually went out on our beautiful campus at the University of British Columbia armed with cash, and we literally walked up to people and handed them either a 5 or a $20 bill, which we asked them to spend by the end of the day.
但有一个条件。
But there was this one catch.
所以我们告诉一半的人，这笔钱必须用来帮助别人。
So we told half the people they had to use this money to benefit somebody else.
我们告诉另一半的人，这笔钱必须用来给自己花。
We told half the people they had to use this money to benefit themselves.
结果我们发现，那些被随机分配（就像抛硬币决定一样）用这笔钱去帮助别人的人，当天的心情比那些把钱花在自己身上的人要更开心。
And what we discovered was that people who had been assigned basically by the flip of a coin to use this money to benefit others ended up feeling happier that day compared to people who had been assigned to use that money on themselves.
所以说到气候问题，其实有很多机会可以做出改变，比如捐钱给那些在应对气候变化方面做得非常出色的组织。
And so when it comes to climate, you know, there's opportunities to make a difference in terms of fighting climate change by donating money to organizations that are doing really wonderful work there.
我觉得这可以成为我们使用一部分钱的好方式。
And I think that can be a great way to use some of our money.
所以与其纠结到底该买什么、买的东西够不够环保，不如把那份心思用来挑一个真正优秀的环保组织，然后捐一笔钱。
So instead of obsessing over what exactly we should buy and whether what we're buying is environmentally friendly enough, instead using some of that bandwidth to just pick a really great climate organization and make a donation.
我很希望人们能这样看待自己的钱。
I would love to see people think about their money in that way.
所以我把最后一个话题留到最后，因为你刚才说的那些，对我来说都挺有道理的。
So I I have saved the final category for last because, really, what you've said so far works for me.
我大部分时间都吃素。
I mostly eat vegetarian.
我也尽量做慈善捐款。
I try to give charitably.
我特别喜欢枫糖浆。
I I love maple syrup.
但真正让我花钱的是旅行。
But it's the travel.
我超爱旅行。
I love to travel.
那才是我喜欢花钱的地方。
It is the way I like to spend my money.
我不太爱购物，但旅行又让我特别内疚。
I'm not big on shopping, and I just feel so guilty about it.
这真的很让人沮丧，因为我知道很多人，比如，旅行就是他们看世界的乐趣。
And it's a huge bummer because I know a lot of people, like, this is their pleasure to see the world.
我和我丈夫一直在纠结的一个问题是，我们是不是就该待在家里？
And the question that my husband and I are always wrestling with is, should we just stay home?
给我们讲讲坐飞机的门道吧，哪些该做，哪些不该做。
Give us the lowdown on flying and what we should and should not do.
作为研究幸福感的学者，我做过研究，发现花钱买体验比买实物能带来更多快乐，这在我自己的生活里也确实是这么做的。
So as a happiness researcher, I have done work on how buying experiences provides more joy than buying material things, and this is definitely something that I embrace in my own life.
我也很喜欢旅行。
I also love travel.
我喜欢度假。
I love vacation.
我们本来想在书里写一章关于度假的内容，但说实话一直拖着没写，因为我们觉得，哎呀，不知道怎么写。
And we wanted to write a chapter of our book on vacation, but we honestly kept putting it off because we were like, I don't know.
感觉这就像，我们根本找不到什么两全其美的办法。
This is like, we're not gonna be able to find any sweet spots here.
这肯定全是坏消息。
This is just gonna be bad news.
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但我非常惊喜地发现我错了，其实有很多好办法可以在享受旅行乐趣的同时减少碳排放。
But I was so joyfully surprised to discover that I was wrong and that actually there are great ways that we can reduce our carbon emissions while still enjoying the pleasure of travel.
首先，我们得承认飞行对碳排放的影响确实非常大，尤其是长途航班。
For one thing, let's just start by acknowledging that flying does have a really outsized impact in terms of carbon emissions, and this is particularly the case for long haul flights.
举个例子，一个全年吃素的人，如果假期从纽约飞往泰国，产生的碳排放和一个全年吃肉但假期待在家里的人是一样的。
So for example, somebody who eats vegan all year long but then flies from New York to Thailand for the holidays will end up with the same carbon emissions as somebody who was eating meat all year but stayed home for the holidays.
不会吧。
No way.
所以
So
这真的很重要
it really does matter
哇。
Wow.
这些长途航班。
These long haul flights.
但是，再说一次，那是从纽约到泰国的航班。
But, again, that's a that's a New York to Thailand flight.
所以，你飞多远真的很重要。
So how far you go really matters.
而且很多时候，两小时的航班就能带你去很棒的地方，碳排放也不会太高。
And often, we can get somewhere pretty awesome in a two hour flight, and then the carbon emissions aren't gonna be all that high.
我们也可以把那些长途度假当作一种偶尔为之的享受。
We can also think about making those long haul vacations something that we do, but something that's really a treat.
我试着把它想成奥运会那样。
Something I try to think of it like the Olympics.
你知道吗？
You know?
我想带我儿子去欧洲。
I I wanna take my son to Europe.
他真的很想看西班牙队踢足球。
He really wants to see Spain play soccer.
我就想，好吧。
I'm like, okay.
我们会去的，但这会是件特别的事，而不是普通的暑假旅行。
We will do this, but it's gonna be, you know, a very special thing as opposed to just a standard summer vacation.
如果你要坐飞机，直飞航班真的差别很大。
Now if you are gonna fly, taking a nonstop flight really makes a difference.
直飞航班的碳排放量比中转一次的航班要低得多。
So nonstop flights are going to come with a much lower carbon price tag than even a one stop.
这是因为克服重力飞上天空会消耗大量燃料。
And this is because fighting gravity to get into the sky burns a lot of fuel.
所以坐直飞航班既能节省时间，又能减少碳排放。
And so we can both save ourselves time and cut carbon by taking direct flights.
对。
Mhmm.
你可以考虑只带随身行李。
You can think about taking carry on baggage only.
其实，坐飞机托运一个普通行李箱，就相当于多带了一个六岁的小孩上飞机。
It turns out that just taking a typical checked bag on a flight is equivalent to taking an extra six year old child on board with you.
我以前真没想过这一点。
And I never really thought about that.
我一直觉得行李就像我的一个小配件。
I just thought of the luggage as like a little accessory to me.
但当然，它也算重量。
But, of course, it it counts.
这很重要。
It matters.
所以这是我特别喜欢的一个策略。
So that's that's one strategy that I really like.
我们也可以考虑，在不取消那些大旅行的前提下，安排一些离家近的假期。
We can also think about without necessarily eliminating some of those bigger trips, building in some vacations closer to home.
荷兰有一项很有意思的研究，调查了在不同景点、参加不同活动的游客。
There's a really cool study that was conducted in The Netherlands surveying tourists at different kinds of attractions, doing different kinds of activities.
这项研究的目标就是想弄清楚，到底哪种旅游活动最能让人开心？
And the goal of the research was to figure out, like, what type of tourist activity really makes people the happiest?
简单来说，不管人们是去逛博物馆、购物、吃饭还是探索，结果都一样。
And the short answer was it didn't matter whether people were visiting museums or shopping or eating or exploring.
他们就是玩得很开心，因为当游客本身就是件快乐的事。
Like, they were just having a great time because being a tourist is fun.
唯一的例外是，如果那天大部分时间都花在路上，人们的心情就不太好。
The one exception was that when people had spent most of that day traveling, they weren't in such a good mood.
所以，真正拉低旅游乐趣的，其实是旅途中的奔波。
So it's the travel part of tourism that actually drags down our pleasure.
所以，如果能坐更短的航班，或者开车二十分钟就能到目的地，那可能才是真正把旅游的快乐最大化的方式。
So if we can take that shorter flight or that twenty minute car trip to get to our destination, then we may actually be maximizing the pleasure of tourism.
想到这些可能会让人有点沮丧，觉得好吧。
It's it can be frustrating to think, like, okay.
我可以做所有这些事来保护地球，但那么多超级富豪，他们坐私人飞机去他们的多处豪宅，这抵消了我为地球做的任何一点小事。
I can do all this and be happy, but there are so many extremely wealthy people who are taking their private jets to their multiple homes that are offsetting any little thing that I do to help the planet.
遇到这种情绪你会怎么处理？
What do you do with feelings like that?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得很容易就会想，哎呀，别人影响那么大。
I mean, I think it's easy to say, oh, well, other people are, you know, having this outsized impact.
那我做不做都无所谓，干脆就好好享受算了。
So what I do doesn't matter, and I should just go ahead and enjoy myself.
但我觉得，归根结底，这种想法会让人失去力量。
But I think that, ultimately, that is disempowering.
它剥夺了我们这些普通人在日常生活中的主动权。
It takes any agency away from us as, like, regular people going about our lives.
好消息是，亿万富翁其实没那么多。
I mean, the good news is there aren't that many billionaires.
我们普通人要多得多。
There's a lot more of the rest of us.
所以，我们其实是有能力做出一些选择，这些选择累积起来真的能产生影响，而且那些和我们差不多的人也会看到。
So, potentially, we have the power to, you know, make choices that actually, again, do add up and make a difference and that other people who are like us are seeing.
确实，我们有时候会看那些比我们富有得多的人，把他们当作自己行为的标杆，但我们也会看那些和我们差不多的人。
So it's true that we do sometimes look to, you know, much wealthier people as setting the standard for our own behavior, but we also look to people who are similar to ourselves.
所以，我们的选择不仅仅影响自己，还会影响到和我们相似的人，而且我们和大多数人的相似度，可能比他们和亿万富翁的相似度还要高。
And so, again, our choices extend beyond just what we're doing to affect other people who are like us, and we're probably more similar to most folks than they are to billionaires.
这让我想起你书里引用的另一个研究，就是关于行为传染的例子。
And, actually, that's reminding me of another study that you cite, an an example that you use in your book about contagious behavior.
比如，在那些有人开始在屋顶装太阳能板的社区里，邻居们也更有可能跟着装，不管他们的收入水平如何。
Like, for example, that peoples in neighborhoods where they start putting solar panels on their roof, the neighbors were more likely to do so as well regardless of their level of income.
没错。
That's right.
所以看起来太阳能板是会传染的。
So it looks like solar panels are contagious.
所以，如果你手头稍微宽裕一点，用一部分钱去装个热泵或者太阳能板，而且把它们放在显眼的地方，这真的会影响你周围的人。
And so if you do have a little bit more, you know, disposable income and you use some of it to install a heat pump or install solar panels and maybe put them in a highly visible place, that will actually influence those around you.
反过来，如果你买了一辆新车，邻居们也更有可能去买新车。
Conversely, if you buy a new car, other neighbors are more likely to buy a new car.
实际上，有随机对照试验的证据支持这个观点。
There's actually, like, randomized controlled trial evidence supporting this idea.
所以我们的选择在影响周围的人，这种影响甚至很难被理解。
So our own choices are influencing those around us in ways that it's hard to even understand.
我们回来之后，丽兹的合作伙伴杰伊·Z会分享更多让人开心的气候小妙招，比如怎么整理冰箱。
When we come back, Liz's collaborator, Jay z, shares some more happy climate hacks, like how to organize your refrigerator.
我是马诺·扎莫罗迪，你正在收听NPR的TED广播时间。
I'm Manoj Zamorodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.
请继续收听。
Stay with us.
这条消息来自格兰杰。
This message comes from Grainger.
对于那些把事情搞定的人，格兰杰提供你需要的专业级产品，快速送货，还有技术产品专家随时帮你应对任何挑战。
For the ones who get it done, Grainger offers the professional grade products you need to get the job done with fast delivery and access to technical product experts ready to help you meet any challenge.
打电话、上grainger.com，或者直接去店里都行。
Call, click grainger.com, or just stop by.
一个历史上这么不受欢迎的总统，要怎么应对中期选举季呢？这可能会让他权力大减。
How will a historically unpopular president navigate a midterm election season that may leave him with a lot less power?
想随时了解最新新闻，就听《特朗普的任期》这个播客，我们把NPR对特朗普总统的报道浓缩成短小精悍的单集，每集聚焦一个故事。
Stay caught up on the latest news with Trump's Terms, the podcast where we curate NPR's coverage of president Trump in short episodes focused on a single story.
在NPR应用或任何你收听播客的地方，关注《特朗普的任期》。
Follow Trump's terms on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
你好。
Hi there.
我是布列塔尼·卢斯。
I'm Brittany Luce.
不是吹牛，我主持的播客真的超棒。
And not to brag, but I host a really fabulous podcast.
节目叫《已经过了一分钟》。
It's called it's been a minute.
我很喜欢做这个节目，我觉得你也会喜欢听的。
I love making it, and I think you'll love listening to it.
过去一年里，成千上万的听众都在收听，我得说，如果你还没听过，那你真的错过了。
Over the last year, hundreds of thousands of listeners have been tuning in, and I gotta say, if you haven't yet, you're missing out.
今天就收听NPR的《It's Been a Minute》播客吧。
Listen to the it's been a minute podcast from NPR today.
亿万富翁马克·库班深入了解了美国医疗体系的黑暗面。
Billionaire Mark Cuban has stared into the belly of the beast of America's health care system.
我的意思是，情况太糟糕了，你可以列出一长串优质医院，他们都不知道自己的成本是多少。
I mean, it's so bad, you can go through a long list of really quality hospitals, and they don't know their costs.
那么，全民医保能成为解决方案吗？
So can Medicare for all be a solution?
我们认真审视了这个项目的成本，以及美国医疗体系本身。
We take a hard look at the cost of the program along with US health care itself.
在NPR应用上找到这个节目，并收听更多来自Planet Money的《The Indicator》的故事。
Find this and hear more stories from the indicator from planet money on the NPR app.
这里是NPR的Ted广播时间。
It's the Ted Radio Hour from NPR.
我是Manouche Zamorodi。
I'm Manouche Zamorodi.
今天的节目，我们来聊聊如何过上更环保的生活，同时还能真正感到快乐。
On the show today, a conversation about living a more climate friendly life and still actually feeling happy.
到目前为止，Elizabeth Dunn带我们了解了她最喜欢的几个环保小妙招，但她的合著者Zheng Zhao还有更多，她在2023年的TED演讲中分享了这些。
But so far, Elizabeth Dunn walked us through a few of her favorite climate hacks, but her co author, Zheng Zhao, has even more, which she shared on the TED stage in 2023.
我们先从我的宠物兔子说起吧。
Let's start with my pet bunny.
几年前，我和我的伴侣收养了Greenwich。
A few years ago, my partner and I adopted Greenwich.
她超级可爱。
She's adorable.
而且她也是素食主义者。
She's also a vegan.
因为格林威治，我们家里种了好多蔬菜和水果的植物，我也因此比以前吃了更多的蔬菜。
We have so many plants with vegetables and fruits in our house, thanks to Greenwich, and because of that, I'm eating a lot more vegetables myself than I used to.
我不是在开玩笑。
And I'm not kidding.
我感觉开心多了。
I'm feeling a lot happier.
多吃植物性食物可以减少高达80%的农业排放。
Eating more plants can reduce agricultural emissions by up to 80%.
这部分你可能之前就知道了。
I guess that part you may have known before.
但你知道吗，植物性饮食还能让你心情更好？
But do you also know that a plant based diet can make you feel happier?
几十年的医学研究表明，植物性饮食可以同时改善身体健康和心理健康。
Decades of medical studies suggest that a plant based diet can increase both physical and mental health.
最近的一项实验中，研究人员招募了来自北达科他州几乎不吃蔬菜的人，让他们连续两个月吃植物性饮食。
In a recent experiment, researchers recruited people from North Dakota who barely ate any vegetables, and they fed these people a plant based diet for two months.
这些参与者在两个月结束时，比实验开始前感觉快乐多了。
These people on this diet felt a lot happier at the end of two months than they did before they started the experiment.
所以研究人员认为，这是因为植物，也就是水果和蔬菜，富含维生素和植物化学物质，能为大脑和身体提供抗氧化和抗炎的好处。
So researchers think that this is because plants, so fruits, vegetables, are high in vitamins and phytochemicals that provide both antioxidant and anti inflammatory benefits to the brain and the body.
所以，这个让人快乐的环保行动就是多吃植物。
So the happy climate action here is eat more plants.
但这并不意味着永远不吃肉，因为我可以告诉你，剥夺感对快乐来说是个灾难。
But this does not mean never eat meat, because I can tell you that deprivation is a disaster for happiness.
相反，我们应该在饮食中寻求肉类和植物的适当平衡，这样才能让我们最大程度地感到快乐。
Instead, we should aim for the right balance of meat and plants in our diet that will make us maximally happy.
除了食物，我们还可以把其他事情变成一种享受，比如购物。
And beyond food, we can turn other things into a treat as well, like shopping.
你知道，快时尚对气候影响巨大。
Now, you know that fast fashion has a huge climate impact.
所以，与其频繁购物，不如把购物当作一种享受。
So instead of shopping often, make shopping a treat.
这里有个让气候变好的小妙招。
And here's the happy climate hack.
夹克、牛仔裤、鞋子会产生大量温室气体排放。
Jackets, jeans, shoes have a lot of greenhouse gas emissions.
所以，给自己买一些高质量、不容易穿几次就坏的产品，其实对地球有好处。
So treating ourselves to high quality versions of these products that won't fall apart after a few wears is actually good for the planet.
而内衣的排放量就比较低了。
Underwear, on the other hand, have pretty low emissions.
所以，你知道的，需要的时候尽管买。
So, you know, please buy those whenever you need them.
不客气。
You're welcome.
接下来我们聊聊浪费的问题。
Now let's talk about waste.
你知道吗，如果你的空间干净、零浪费、井井有条，你可能会感觉更快乐。
Do you know that if your space is clean, zero waste and organized, you may feel happier?
咱们来看看每个人家里最乱的地方——冰箱。
Let's take a look at perhaps the messiest part of everybody's home, the fridge.
有些环保专家建议把易腐食品放在抽屉里，把调味品放在冰箱门上。
Some environmental experts recommend that we put perishables into the drawers and put the condiments at the door.
我不想这么说，但我不同意。
I hate to say this, but I disagree.
我觉得冰箱的设计并没有考虑到人的行为习惯。
I don't think the fridge is designed with human behavior in mind.
我们常常会忘记抽屉里的东西，对吧，眼不见心不烦，这会导致很多食物浪费和排放。
We often forget about the things in the drawers, right, out of sight, out of mind, and that can lead to a lot of food waste and emissions.
那么，这里有什么快乐的环保行动呢？
So what's a happy climate action here?
给冰箱来个风水布局。
Feng Shui your fridge.
我就是这样给冰箱做风水布局的：把易腐食品移到冰箱门上，把调味品放进抽屉里，这样我就能在它们变质前发现它们。
This is how I Feng Shui my fridge, by moving the perishables to the door and the condiments into the drawers, so I can catch things before they rot.
我还给我的冰箱做了五倍法则，就是先进先出，把旧的东西放到冰箱前面，这样我就不会忘记它们了。
I also fivefold my fridge, that is first in, first out, meaning moving older items to the front of the fridge so I don't forget about them.
这样，你就能拥有一个零浪费的干净冰箱，而且你可能会觉得更开心。
This way, you can have a zero waste clean fridge, and you may feel happier.
现在，除了浪费，我们还得谈谈旅行。
Now beyond waste, we have to talk about travel.
这里有一个快乐的环保小妙招。
And here's the happy climate hack.
与其说少开车，不如说多载人。
Instead of saying drive less, we should say drive more people.
一些研究表明，我们和亲朋好友在一起的时间越多，我们就越开心。
Some studies suggest that the more time we spend with our friends and family, the happier we feel.
所以这意味着，与其一个人开车，不如带上朋友一起，因为拼车可以把那些无聊的开车时间变成快乐的社交时光。
So what this means is that instead of driving alone in our car, we should drive our friends, because carpooling can turn those dreadful minutes behind the wheel into joyful moments of socializing.
或者你也可以完全不开车，改骑自行车。
Or you can ditch the car altogether and bike.
更好的是，和你的兔子一起骑自行车。
Better yet, bike with your bunny.
骑自行车几乎零碳排放，而且还能提供适度运动，激活我们的内源性大麻素系统，带来一种兴奋感，就是骑行者那种快感，以及更好的心理健康。
Biking is virtually carbon free, and it also offers moderate exercise that activates our endocannabinoid system, and that contributes to a sense of euphoria that's bikers high and greater mental well-being.
我想你已经明白我的意思了，我鼓励你花点时间想想自己在生活中能采取哪些行动，既能减少排放，又能让自己更快乐。
I think you get the gist here, and I encourage you to take a moment and think about the actions you can take in your own life that not only reduce emissions but also can make yourself feel happier.
这样的行动可能有很多，所以请发挥创意。
There's probably a lot of those in this sweet spot, So please get creative.
好的。
Okay.
那么，Liz，你和Jay Z建议的很多小技巧都很有趣。
So, Liz, a lot of the tips you and Jay Z suggest are fun.
它们都挺省力的，比如多吃枫糖浆。
They're kind of low effort, like eating more maple syrup.
这真是理想的情况。
It is the ideal scenario.
但有些事情我们可能应该做，但一开始感觉不太好。
But there are some things that we probably should do that don't feel great, at least to begin with.
你知道，比如堆肥。
You know, like composting, for example.
这有点麻烦，但做完之后，我确实感觉很好，而且很高兴我做了。
It's kind of a pain in the butt, but after I do it, I do feel good, and I'm glad I did it.
那么，关于延迟满足的时刻呢？
So what about moments of delayed gratification?
这些怎么融入进来？
How do those fit in?
嗯，我觉得有些事情像堆肥，对我们大多数人来说并不是天生就喜欢的，但至少我们可以让它们不那么恶心。
Well, I think there's some things we do like composting that for most of us are not inherently enjoyable, but we can at least make them less gross.
对。
So Mhmm.
比如，把堆肥放在冰箱里是一个好策略，尤其是在炎热的夏天，让它不那么令人不快，这样更容易坚持下去。
For example, keeping compost in the freezer is one good strategy, especially in a hot summer for making it less unpleasant, which can make it easier to stick with.
但即便如此，就算你用了最优雅的堆肥方法，它可能也不会成为你今天最开心的事，至少我希望它不是。
But still, even with the most, like, elegant composting strategy, it's probably not gonna be the most joyful thing you do today, or at least I hope it's not the most joyful thing that you do today.
你知道，我觉得做那些事确实很好，但实际上我们有很多机会可以找到既环保又让人开心的事情。
You know, I would say doing those things are are are great, but there are actually just so many opportunities that we can find where the environmentally friendly action is also the joyful one.
所以我们特别鼓励大家去留意这些机会。
And so those are the strategies that we especially encourage people to look out for.
就像你说的，要留意那种感觉，就是“哦，这感觉真好”。
And like you said, to just pay attention to, you know, to pay attention to the fact that, oh, that actually felt really good.
关注这些，拥抱这些真正让人愉快的改变，我觉得能让我们更有动力，也能帮我们找到更多减少碳排放的选择。
You know, paying attention to that and embracing those really enjoyable changes, I think, can further energize us and help us find even more ways that we can adopt these lower carbon choices.
我确实喜欢这个“更有动力”的说法。
I do like that idea of being further energized.
比如，我发现如果自己开心，通常就会觉得更有精力去做更多事，而不是感到羞愧或者觉得自己是个糟糕的人，那样反而会让我想蜷缩在桌子底下什么都不干。
Like, I I find that, you know, if I'm happy, that generally does mean that I feel as though I have more energy to do more as opposed to feeling shamed or like I'm a terrible person that makes me wanna, you know, crawl into the fetal position under my desk and do nothing.
没错。
Exactly.
而且积极的情绪还能让我们更有创造力。
And positive emotions can also make us more creative.
所以当我们感到快乐时，我们更擅长想出新颖的创意解决方案，而这正是我们在应对气候变化的重大斗争中所需要的。
So when we feel happy, we're better at thinking of novel creative solutions, which, of course, is exactly what we need in the epic fight against climate change.
所以，把这种快乐当作一种方式，让自己更有活力、更有创造力、更好地应对气候变化，我认为这确实是一种非常有效的做法。
So embracing some of this joy as a way to be more energized and more creative and better at tackling climate change, I think, is a really productive approach.
你最近一直在公开场合谈论这本书。
You've been talking about this book out and about to the public right now.
你收到了哪些反馈？
What's some of the feedback that you've been getting?
因为你知道，这不是一个受欢迎的话题。
Because, you know, it's not a popular topic.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得有很多人都在想，我们完蛋了。
I I feel like there are a lot of people who are just thinking like, well, we're screwed.
看看现在到处都在着火的地方。
Look at every place that's on fire right now.
有些公司没达到目标，有些政府也退出了协议。
There are corporations who are missing their targets, governments who are pulling back from agreements.
但另一方面，我们也看到全球都在转向可再生能源。
On the flip side though, we are seeing a shift to renewables across the globe.
你觉得你针对的那些人，他们现在的心理状态是怎样的？
Where where are you finding the people who you're targeting are mentally?
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我们得到的反馈是，这种更快乐的方式能重新赋予人们行动的力量。
I mean, the feedback that we're getting is that this more joyful approach re empowers people to take action.
所以当你觉得一切都糟透了，我们无能为力的时候，似乎就没有理由去做任何事情了。
So when you feel like everything is terrible and there's nothing we can do, it seems like there's no reason to do anything at all.
所以我们真正想做的，是用实际的知识和事实武装人们，让他们知道在哪里有机会去做出改变。
And so what we're really trying to do is arm people with actual knowledge and facts about where they might have opportunities to make a difference.
而且，这真的有点像那种“自己选冒险”的方式，我们会带大家走过生活的方方面面。
And, again, it's really kind of a choose your own adventure approach where we walk people through every domain of life.
从饮食、度假，到工作、通勤，再到像要不要孩子这样的人生重大决定。
So from food and vacation to working, commuting, and major life decisions like whether to have kids.
所以让我觉得有意思的是，真正能引起大家共鸣的那部分，会因人而异，取决于他们是谁、处在人生的哪个阶段。
And so one of the things that's interesting to me is that the piece that really resonates for people varies dramatically depending on who they are, what stage of life they're in.
我觉得食物是个很好的切入点，因为我们每天都有机会选择吃什么，所以这是个特别容易上手的行动点。
You know, I think the nice thing about food is we all have some opportunities to choose what to put in our mouths each day, so that's a really easy opportunity.
但有些对气候影响很大的决定，大多数人根本没想到，而且他们告诉我们，在读我们的书之前，真的没意识到这些决定跟气候变化有什么关系。
But there's decisions that really matter for climate that most people don't think of and have told us, you know, before reading our book, they really didn't realize that these decisions had any relevance to climate change at all.
比如说，住在哪里这个决定，对你生活方式的碳排放影响非常大。
So for example, the decision about where to live has a huge bearing on the carbon emissions of your lifestyle.
如果你能住在像温哥华或者佛蒙特州这样有清洁能源的地方，那你日常行为的碳排放就会大大降低。
So if you can live in a place like Vancouver that has clean energy or like Vermont that has clean energy, then the carbon emissions of your everyday actions are gonna be greatly reduced.
我给你举个具体的例子吧。
So let me give you one concrete example.
如果你在佛蒙特州一个典型的客厅里开空调，那里用的是清洁能源，你开一个星期的空调，大概会排放八磅的碳，差不多是一个新生婴儿的重量。
If you run an air conditioner in a typical living room in Vermont, which has clean energy, you run that air conditioner for one week, you're gonna emit about eight pounds of carbon, so like the weight of a newborn baby.
相比之下，你在怀俄明州同样大小的房间里开同一台空调，那里没有清洁能源，你会排放一千磅的碳，相当于一匹成年马的重量。
In contrast, you run that exact same air conditioner in the same size room in Wyoming, which does not have clean energy, you're gonna emit a thousand pounds of carbon, so the weight of a full grown horse.
所以这里的重点是，我们选择住在哪里，其实对碳排放有巨大的影响，而且我们可以放心。
So the idea here is that these choices about where we live actually have a massive impact on our carbon emissions, And we can feel free.
与其在炎热的夏天里硬扛，如果我们能住在有清洁能源的地方，就可以放心地开空调。
Instead of suffering through hot summers, you know, we can feel free to run an air conditioner if we can live in a place with clean energy.
所以我们一直听到人们说，他们一直在关注吸管和可重复使用的袋子这类事情，却完全没有想到这些影响更大的决定。
And so one thing we've been hearing from from people is that there are you know, they've been focusing on things like straws and reusable bags and not thinking at all about these much more high impact decisions.
当然，不是每个人都有机会改变居住地，但我觉得，特别是当人们处在人生的十字路口，比如决定住在哪里、做什么工作、或者要不要孩子的时候，我们可以把气候变化作为考虑因素之一，来思考如何做出这些选择。
Now not all of us have an opportunity to change where we live, but particularly, I think when people are at some crossroads in life where they're deciding where to live or what kind of job to do or whether to have children, we can think about how to navigate these choices with climate change as as sort of one piece of the puzzle.
不过，这确实是一种特权。
I mean, it is, you know, a privilege, though.
在美国，有些地方的人们住在那里。
There are some places in The United States where people live.
没有车哪儿都去不了。
You cannot get anywhere without a car.
我们说的是那种典型的听NPR的中产或中上层阶级的人，他们可能有条件做这些事，大概要花多少钱呢？
How much are we talking about, you know, the sort of stereotypical NPR listening, middle class, upper middle class person who maybe is privileged and can do these things?
这怎么影响这件事呢？
Is this something how does that play into it?
所以，再说一遍，这就是为什么我们不想告诉每个人都要做这五件事来应对气候变化，因为这真的取决于你住在哪里，你有多少钱，你有哪些机会去改变你的生活。
So, again, this is why we don't wanna tell people everyone should do these five things to fight climate change because it really depends on where you live, how much money you have, what opportunities you have to make change in your life.
我觉得每个人，每一个人都有机会以一种真正让人感到快乐的方式减少自己的碳排放，他们只需要找到那个方式。
And so I think that everybody, every single person has an opportunity to reduce their carbon emissions in a way that would actually feel joyful, and they just have to find it.
而且，这又取决于你的限制条件是什么。
And, again, it it depends on what the constraints are.
所以，对于那些别无选择只能开车上班的人来说，这当然是很多美国社区的现状，他们能不能找到可以加入的拼车呢？
So, you know, for people who have no choice but to drive to work, which, of course, is the case in so many American communities, you know, could they find a carpool to be part of?
对于那些有幸住在公共交通便利或者步行方便的城市的人来说，他们能不能考虑放弃一辆车，或者把家里的两辆车减少到一辆呢？
For other folks who are lucky enough to live in a city that has good public transit or that's pretty walkable, could they think about either giving up a car or going down from two family cars to one car?
所以，再说一次，我们有机会做出很多种改变，但关键是要认真想想，我们自己生活里到底有哪些机会。
So, again, there are just so many kinds of changes that we have an opportunity to make that, again, we just have to really think through what what are the opportunities in our own lives.
而且我们得现实一点，因为作为行为科学家，我们学到最重要的一点就是，改变行为真的很难，非常非常难。
And we have to be realistic because one of the biggest things that we've learned as behavioral scientists is that changing our behavior is hard, like, really, really hard.
所以，如果对自己设定不切实际的目标，想着能做出什么样的改变，那反而会适得其反，最后只会让自己很沮丧。
And so having unrealistic aspirations for ourselves about the kinds of changes that we could make is going to be counterproductive, and we're gonna end up frustrated.
所以我们真正希望大家做的是，想一想，嘿。
And so what we really would love for people to do is think about, hey.
我们社区里有什么可能？
What's possible in our community?
我们能做出哪些改变，又怎么互相支持，坚持完成这些改变？
What changes could we make, and how could we support each other to follow through on those changes?
所以当我们办工作坊的时候，我们会让大家互相检验彼此的计划，想想哪里会很难。
So when we run workshops, we actually ask people to stress test each other's plans and think about what's gonna be hard about this.
比如，什么会阻碍你？
Like, what's gonna get in your way?
是什么会让你没法坚持这个计划？
What's gonna stop you from following through on this plan?
然后提前想好怎么克服这些障碍。
And then figure out ahead of time how to get past those obstacles.
我们注意到越来越多的年轻人说他们不想要孩子，原因有很多。
One of the things that we have seen more young people talking about is that they don't wanna have kids for for various reasons.
一个原因是，他们觉得这个世界太不稳定了，不想把孩子带到这个世界上来。
One is that, you know, they feel like the world is too unstable to bring somebody into this world.
另外，他们还引用了一项研究，好像是Jay z的一个学生做的，说养一个孩子相当于每年坐37次跨大西洋航班。
But also, they cite a study that was done, I think, by one of Jay z's students, which said that something like having a kid was equivalent to taking 37 transatlantic flights per year.
你知道，有些事情我会觉得，嗯，听我说。
How you know, there are some things where I'm like, well, listen.
组建家庭是个人的选择。
Having a family is a personal choice.
这也是人类延续物种的一种方式。
It's also something that humans do to perpetuate the species.
那这跟气候问题的讨论有什么关系呢？
Where does that fit into the conversation about climate?
对。
Yeah.
所以，正是Jay Z自己的学生做了那项开创性的研究，后来被当作证据，说如果你关心气候变化，就不该要孩子。
So it was Jay Z's own student who, did the seminal research that was taken as evidence that if you care about climate change, you shouldn't have kids.
而且我跟这位研究者聊过，他从来没想过要传达这个意思，因为我们希望人类这个物种能继续延续并繁荣下去。
And having talked to this researcher, he never meant for that to be the message because we want our species to continue and thrive.
你看，我们生活的这个坚硬星球，它自己会好好的。
You know, this hard rock that we're all living on is gonna be just fine.
地球会一直在那里。
The planet's gonna be here.
我们真正希望存活下来的是我们人类和其他物种，而生孩子就是其中的一部分。
It's our species and other species that we wanna have survive, and and having kids is part of that.
当然，确实，生很多很多孩子意味着更多的碳排放。
Now it is the case that having lots and lots of kids means, you know, there's there's gonna be more carbon emissions.
但好消息是，自从最初的那项研究发表以来，我们每个人相关的排放量其实已经下降了。
But the good news is that since that original research was published, the emissions associated with each one of us has actually declined.
所以，你知道，随着技术创新，我们转向电动汽车，获得更多清洁能源，这些都在降低生孩子的碳排放，我觉得这真的很令人振奋。
So there have been, you know, technological innovations, the fact that we're moving to EVs, the fact that we're getting more clean energy is actually bringing down the emissions the carbon emissions of of having a child, which I think is really exciting.
我
I
想最后问你一个关于鱼群的问题，不是关于吃，而是关于它们的行为，以及这如何与人类相互影响联系起来。
wanna end with asking you about a school of fish, not to eat, but about their behavior and how it relates to also how humans influence each other.
你介意分享一下那项研究吗？
Do you mind sharing that research?
好的。
Yeah.
所以当我被气候变化的巨大威胁压得喘不过气时，我喜欢看鱼群的视频。
So when I feel overwhelmed by the massive threat of climate change, I like to watch videos of fish.
特别是，网上很容易找到一些很棒的视频，展示鱼群面对一个可怕的威胁，也就是一只想吃掉它们的饥饿海狮。
In particular, there's some amazing videos you can easily find on the Internet of fish facing a daunting threat, namely a hungry sea lion who wants to eat them.
最不可思议的是，这些鱼居然能逃脱。
And the incredible thing is that these fish manage to escape.
它们的方法是迅速改变方向，躲开海狮饥饿的大嘴。
And the way that they do this is they quickly change direction and evade the sea lion's hungry jaws.
结果发现，是鱼群边缘的鱼促成了这个奇迹。
And it turns out that it's fish on the edge of the school that are making this miracle happen.
事实上，只要这些边缘鱼中有25%改变方向，整个鱼群就会迅速跟上。
And in fact, if just 25% of these edge fish change direction, the entire school will rapidly follow.
更令人惊叹的是，同样的基本原理也适用于人类。
And what's really amazing is that the same basic principle turns out to apply to humans too.
最近有研究表明，当只有25%的人改变行为时，社会变革的速度可能比我们任何人想象的都要快。
There's recent research showing that when just 25% of us change our behavior, rapid social change can occur just more quickly than any of us would have imagined.
所以我们不需要所有人都参与进来。
So we don't need everybody to get on board.
甚至不需要大多数人参与。
We don't even need a majority of people to get on board.
如果只有25个人改变我们的行为，比如我们点素食，考虑在家度假，或者做出任何别人能看到的改变，我们就可能以某种方式影响其他人，从而引发比大多数人意识到的更强大的社会变革。
If just 25 of us change what we do, we order vegetarian, we think about doing some staycations, we make any change that others can see, we are likely to influence those other people in ways that can provoke much more powerful social change than most of us recognize.
那是伊丽莎白·邓恩，《把灯留着》这本书的合著者。
That was Elizabeth Dunn, coauthor of the book, leave the lights on.
你可以在ted.com上看到丽兹和杰伊·Z的TED演讲。
You can see both Liz's and Jay z's TED talks at ted.com.
非常感谢你本周收听这个节目。
Thank you so much for listening to the show this week.
这一集是由瑞秋·福克纳·怀特制作的。
This episode was produced by Rachel Faulkner White.
这一集由凯蒂·蒙特莱昂和我编辑。
It was edited by Katie Monteleone and me.
我们在NPR的制作团队还包括萨纳兹·梅什坎普尔、马修·克卢捷、艾弗里·基特利、西奥·吉伦、哈尔什亚·纳哈塔和詹姆斯·德拉胡西。
Our production staff at NPR also includes Sanaz Meshkampur, Matthew Cloutier, Avery Keatley, Theo Giron, Harshya Nahata, and James Delahusi.
我们的执行制片人是艾琳·诺古奇。
Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi.
我们的音频工程师是吉米·基利。
Our audio engineer was Jimmy Kealy.
我们在TED的合作伙伴包括萨尔·汗、洛根·麦克卢尔·达夫达、海伦·沃尔特斯、罗克珊·海拉什和丹妮拉·贝拉雷佐。
Our partners at TED are Sal Khan, Logan McClure Davda, Helen Walters, Roxanne Hylash, and Daniella Bellarezzo.
我是马努什·扎莫罗迪，你一直在收听NPR的TED广播时间。
I'm Manoush Zamorodi, and you have been listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.
本周的《等等，别告诉我》节目中，我们与嘉宾乔尔、妮可·约翰逊、彼得·格罗斯和泰特·纳塔罗一起讨论与加拿大的新贸易战。
This week on Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, we talk with our panel Joelle, Nicole Johnson, Peter Gross, and Tate Nataro about the new trade war with Canada.
我无法想象枫糖浆会变得更贵。
I can't imagine maple syrup being any more expensive.
就像，它贵得跟买车一样。
Like, it costs as much as a car.
确实如此。
Like It's true.
你买的是什么车？
What kind of car are you buying?
别错过
Don't miss
我们的完整对话和其余的游戏环节。
our full conversation and the rest of our games.
在NPR应用或任何你收听播客的地方，收听《Wait Wait Don't Tell Me》播客。
Listen to the Wait Wait Don't Tell Me podcast in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
在寻找爱情吗？
Looking for love?
纽约的一场活动承诺用Palantir帮你找到完美伴侣，虽然与那家软件公司无关。
One New York event promises to find you your perfect match using Palantir, though not affiliated with the actual software company.
他们可能会告我。
They could sue me.
我可能会失去一切，但
I could lose everything, but
只要这里至少有两个人擦出火花，这一切就都值得。
it would all be worth it if at least two people here have a spark.
所以别紧张。
So no pressure.
关于Palantir的事实、传闻和黑色幽默。
The facts, myths, and dark jokes surrounding Palantir.
在NPR应用或任何你收听播客的地方，收听《Planet Money》播客。
Listen to Planet Money on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
NPR应用帮你过滤噪音，带来本地、国内和国际的新闻报道。
The NPR app cuts through the noise, bringing you local, national, and global coverage.
没有付费墙，没有盈利压力，没有废话。
No paywalls, no profits, no nonsense.
今天就去你的应用商店下载吧。
Download it in your App Store today.
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