科技先知：生物技术远见者

这里是TED广播时间。

This is the TED Radio Hour.

每周都有突破性的TED演讲。

Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks.

我们现在的任务就是大胆梦想。

Our job now is to dream big.

这些演讲在TED大会上呈现。

Delivered at TED conferences.

去实现我们期待的未来。

To bring about the future we want to see.

来自世界各地。

Around the world.

去理解我们是谁。

To understand who we are.

从这些演讲中，我们为您带来会让您惊喜的演讲者和观点。

From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you.

你根本不知道会发现什么。

You just don't know what you're gonna find.

挑战你。

Challenge you.

我们真的必须

We truly have to

问问自己，为什么这值得关注？

ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy?

甚至改变你。

And even change you.

我真的感觉自己像是变了一个人。

I literally feel like I'm a different person.

是的。

Yes.

你有这种感觉吗？

Do you feel that way?

值得传播的思想。

Ideas worth spreading.

来自TED和NPR。

From Ted and NPR.

我是曼努什·扎莫罗迪。

I'm Manoush Zamorodi.

这是我们与科技预言家三部曲系列的最终集。

This is the final episode in our three part series with the prophets of technology.

我们一直在与那些预测并塑造了我们今天所处数字世界的发明家和科学家们交谈，了解他们哪些预测正确，哪些失误，以及他们认为我们未来将走向何方。

We've been talking to the inventors and scientists who've predicted and shaped the digital world we live in today about what they've gotten right and wrong and where they think we're headed next.

在第一部分中，我们采访了科技先驱雷·库兹韦尔和最初的网络影响者斯图尔特·布兰德。

In part one, we talked to tech pioneer Ray Kurzweil and the original influencer Stuart Brand.

在第二部分中，微软AI的穆斯塔法·苏莱曼与MIT心理学家雪莉·特克尔就AI、聊天机器人以及我们将与技术建立日益紧密的情感关系给出了截然不同的观点。

In part two, Microsoft AI's Mustafa Suleiman and MIT psychologist Sheri Turkle gave us very different takes on AI and chatbots and the intensifying emotional relationship we'll have with our technology.

今天，我们将探讨人体面临的新篇章——随着生物与技术界限从基因层面到脑机融合逐渐模糊，我们正步入一个新时代。

Today, we're exploring a new chapter for the human body as we enter an era where the boundaries between biology and technology are blurring from our genes to the merging of the brain and devices.

我们从一位诺贝尔奖得主的故事和一个你可能在过去几年里经常听到的缩写词开始。

We begin with the story of a Nobel Prize winner and an acronym that you have likely heard a lot over the past few years.

CRISPR，即簇状规则间隔短回文重复序列。

CRISPR or clustered regularly interspersed short palindromic repeats.

哇。

Wow.

真厉害。

Impressive.

我猜对了吗？

Did I get it?

好的。

Okay.

谢谢。

Thank you.

你猜对了。

You did.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我一直在练习这个。

I been working on that.

我真的很高兴你想出了这个缩写。

I'm really glad you came up with the acronym.

嗯，

Well,

不是我，是这个领域的人想出来的。

I didn't, but the field did.

是啊。

Yeah.

这位是生物化学家詹妮弗·杜德纳。

This is biochemist Jennifer Doudna.

大约在2011年，詹妮弗开始与一位名叫埃马纽埃尔·卡彭蒂耶的法国教授合作，他们开始研究CRISPR——一种自然存在于细菌中的现象。

Around 2011, Jennifer started collaborating with a French professor named Emmanuel Charpentier, and they began studying CRISPR, a phenomenon that naturally occurs in bacteria.

正确。

Correct.

这是细菌采用的一种适应性免疫系统，用于保护自身免受病毒感染。

It's an adaptive immune system that bacteria employ to protect themselves from viral infection.

我们开始研究一种酶，一种名为CRISPR Cas9的蛋白质，它在检测RNA和DNA分子以及切割它们方面可能极其有用。

And we began studying an enzyme, a protein called CRISPR Cas nine, which could be incredibly useful for detecting RNA and DNA molecules and for cutting them up.

她和埃马纽埃尔发现，这种CRISPR Cas9分子通过切割病毒的DNA并改变其基因组来消灭病毒。

She and Emmanuelle found that this CRISPR Cas9 molecule destroys viruses by cutting up their DNA and altering their genome.

她们的发现意义重大。

Their discovery was huge.

这带来了一项突破性发现，即该系统可以被利用为一种工具，一种以可编程方式操控DNA序列的技术。

And this led to a breakthrough, really a finding that this system could be harnessed as a tool, as a technology for manipulating DNA sequences in a programmable fashion.

正是通过这项工作，我们意识到该系统实际上可以作为一种基因组编辑工具来使用。

It was through that work that we realized that this system could in fact be deployed as a genome editing tool.

这意味着他们可以利用CRISPR Cas9来靶向并改变特定基因。

Meaning they could use CRISPR Cas9 to target and alter specific genes.

这基本上立刻就能看出是一项非凡的突破性技术。

It was basically immediately clear that this was an extraordinary breakthrough technology.

你还记得当你把这些线索串联起来时的情形吗？

Do you remember what it looked like when you sort of connected the dots?

你是不是像‘哇’地惊叹？

Were you like, woah.

像是‘我得坐下来缓缓’或者‘我需要来杯威士忌’那种感觉？

I have to sit down or I need a whiskey?

纯粹从人类情感层面来说，你当时脑海里闪过了什么念头？

Like, what went through your mind on a purely human emotional level?

嗯，有个有趣的小片段浮现在脑海——那是研究期间的一个夜晚，我刚从实验室回家，我们刚拿到证明这项机制如何运作的数据。

Well, a great little vignette that comes to mind was an evening in those days when I was you know, I had just come home from the lab and, we you had just gotten the data that showed how this worked.

当时我在家，正在厨房给年幼的儿子煮意大利面。

And I was at home, I was cooking spaghetti in my kitchen for my young son.

我突然放声大笑起来，因为想到：这太疯狂了，我们开始研究这个东西时，根本不知道它会走向何方。

And I just suddenly burst out laughing because I thought, this is so crazy, you know, that we started working on this thing, didn't really know where it was going.

而且这确实不是当时热门的科学领域。

And it certainly wasn't a popular area of science at the time.

大多数人从未听说过CRISPR。

Most people had never heard of CRISPR.

然而我们却发现了这个绝对非凡的分子，它的化学性质很可能会改变世界。

And yet we had uncovered this just absolutely extraordinary, molecule whose chemistry was going to probably change the world.

詹妮弗·杜德纳和埃马纽埃尔·沙彭蒂耶的工作为她们赢得了2020年诺贝尔化学奖。

Jennifer Doudna and Emmanuelle Charpentier's work earned them the Nobel Prize in chemistry in 2020.

而现在CRISPR技术正在兑现其重大的医学承诺。

And now CRISPR is starting to deliver on its big medical promises.

2023年末，FDA批准了首个基于CRISPR技术的镰状细胞病治疗方案。

In late twenty twenty three, the FDA approved the first ever CRISPR based treatment for sickle cell disease.

其原理是通过调整患者自身的干细胞，使他们的身体开始制造更健康的血液。

It works by tweaking a patient's own stem cells so that their body starts making healthier blood.

最近，费城儿童医院的医生们对一名患有罕见代谢紊乱的新生儿实施了CRISPR治疗，将基因修复直接递送至他的肝脏，使他成为首位接受定制基因治疗的人。

More recently, doctors at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia used a CRISPR treatment on a baby born with a rare metabolic disorder, delivering the gene fix directly to his liver making him the first person to get customized genetic therapy.

研究人员还在测试CRISPR作为一次性解决方案，通过编辑与心脏病相关的单一基因来治疗高胆固醇。

Researchers are also testing CRISPR as a one time fix for high cholesterol by editing a single gene linked to heart disease.

经过多年的期待，CRISPR正从实验室走向现实生活。

After years of hope, CRISPR is getting out of the lab and into real lives.

维多利亚·格雷实际上是美国首位接受CRISPR疗法治疗镰状细胞病的患者。

Victoria Gray, she was actually the first US patient to receive a CRISPR based therapy for her sickle cell disease.

而且，你知道，她证明了这种方法在从根源治疗疾病方面确实可以表现得相当出色。

And, you know, she's showing that this type of approach can actually work quite well in terms of treating a disease at its source.

我认为这确实是CRISPR所提供的——真正针对遗传性疾病的治愈方案。

And I think that's really what CRISPR offers is that kind of a cure really for genetic disease.

但我们必须考虑到，我们这里讨论的实际上是在改变进化过程。

But I think one has to think about the fact that, you know, what we're talking about here is effectively changing evolution.

你知道，这正在改变我们的核心本质，回到造就我们是谁的遗传指令手册并进行修改。

You know, it's changing us at our core and going back to the instruction manual that makes us who we are and making changes there.

当我们将其置于像镰状细胞病这样极具破坏性的疾病背景下讨论时，这确实看起来像是某些家庭最终可能考虑的选择，特别是当这项技术经过严格验证并证明安全之后。

When we talk about it in the context of a disease like sickle cell disease that is so debilitating, It certainly seems like this might be something that some families might want to consider eventually, especially if the technology is vetted carefully and shown to be safe.

但我认为更广泛的问题实际上是公平性、技术获取渠道、由谁来决定如此深远的事情、谁来支付费用、谁有权使用这些技术。

But I think the broader issue really is equity, access to technologies, who decides about something like that, something as profound as that, who pays for it, who has access to it.

我认为这会很快变得复杂起来。

I think it gets complicated quickly.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，这从阻止致命疾病发展到了可能优化智商，甚至，你知道，比如变得苗条高挑、拥有特定瞳色之类的。

I mean, it goes from stopping a fatal disease to maybe optimizing for IQ or even, you know, being thin and tall and having a particular eye color, I suppose.

在最极端的情况下，你可以想象有一天夫妇们去体外受精诊所时会收到一份菜单。

I mean, in the most extreme case, you could imagine that someday couples, you know, go to an in vitro fertilization clinic and they receive a menu.

对吧？

Right?

他们可以决定希望孩子具备哪些特质。

And they can decide what types of of traits they want for their their children.

是啊。

Yeah.

你其实早在2015年的TED演讲中就提到过这个。

You actually brought that up back in 2015 in your TED talk.

想象一下我们可以尝试设计具有增强特性的人类，比如更坚硬的骨骼、更低的心血管疾病易感性，甚至拥有我们可能认为理想的特性，可以说是定制人类。

Imagine that we could try to engineer humans that have enhanced properties, such as stronger bones or less susceptibility to cardiovascular disease, or even to have properties that we would consider maybe to be desirable, designer humans, if you will.

目前，关于哪些基因会导致这些特性的遗传信息大多尚未明确，但重要的是要知道，CRISPR技术为我们提供了在相关知识具备后进行这类改变的工具。

Right now, the genetic information to understand what types of genes would give rise to these traits are mostly not known, but it's important to know that the CRISPR technology gives us a tool to make such changes once that knowledge becomes available.

这引发了许多我们必须慎重考虑的伦理问题，正因如此，我和同事们呼吁在全球范围内暂停对人类胚胎进行CRISPR技术的临床应用，以便我们有时间全面考量这一行为可能带来的各种影响。

This raises a number of ethical questions that we have to to carefully consider, and, this is why I and my colleagues have called for a global pause in any clinical application of the CRISPR technology in human embryos, to give us time to really consider all of the various implications of doing so.

2015年，詹妮弗曾呼吁在国际上暂停对人类胚胎应用CRISPR技术，至少等到科学界充分考虑基因编辑的所有伦理影响后再做决定。

In 2015, Jennifer called for an international moratorium on applying CRISPR to human embryos, at least until the scientific community considered all the ethical implications of gene editing.

但并非所有人都遵守了这项暂停令。

But not everyone stuck to a moratorium.

一夜之间，一个惊人声明震惊世界。

Overnight, an astonishing claim.

一位中国科学家声称他创造了世界上首例基因编辑婴儿。

A scientist in China saying he created the world's first genetically engineered babies.

一条本不该被跨越的界限已被逾越。

A line has been crossed that should not have been crossed.

这非常令人不安。

It's very disturbing.

这是不恰当的。

It's inappropriate.

哦，这可是大事。

Oh, this is huge.

当时的动机之一确实是唤起所有人的注意，让大家意识到这项技术确实具有在人类身上引发深刻改变的潜力。

That was definitely a motivation at that time was to call to the attention of everyone to just be aware that this technology does have the potential to create these very profound, you know, kinds of changes in human beings.

随后在2018年，第二届人类基因组编辑国际峰会上公布了中国的一个项目，该项目使用CRISPR技术编辑了两个胚胎并植入母体，最终诞生了一对DNA被编辑过的双胞胎女婴。

What happened next was that there was an announcement in 2018, which was actually actually happened at the second international summit on the topic of human genome editing of a project in China in which two embryos had been edited using CRISPR and then were implanted to create a pregnancy, that resulted in the birth of twin girls with edits to their DNA.

你还记得他展示研究后你的反应吗？

And do you remember what your reaction was after he presented his research?

嗯，相当骇人听闻。

Well, was pretty horrifying.

要知道，看到这项研究以这种方式进行，确实令人震惊。

You know, it was, just kind of shocking to see the way that the work had been performed.

这完全是一个科学家行为不道德的典型案例，在安全性未经充分验证、也未妥善向患者解释并获得同意的情况下，就仓促推进胚胎实验，甚至没有向研究对象充分说明胚胎实验的真实情况。

It just really an example of unethical behavior on the part of a scientist, you know, just rushing forward with something before it had been tested to be safe and also without properly understanding how to explain and consent with patients, you know, to explain to them what was actually happening to the embryos that they were using in the study.

因此我认为这确实警醒了国际社会，让大家意识到这类研究目前绝不应该开展。

And so I think it really did galvanize the international community to realize that this type of work really shouldn't be happening right now.

现在不仅科学组织，连世界卫生组织和联合国也都协同参与了这场讨论。

And there has been a concerted effort on the part of not only scientific organizations, but also by the World Health Organization and the United Nations to get involved in in this conversation.

好的。

Okay.

所以现在政府和非政府组织都在讨论，但我们还没谈到另一个重要角色——私营企业。

So you've got governments and NGOs talking, but, of course, there's the other party that we're not talking about yet, which is private enterprise.

有许多公司都指望靠这项技术赚钱。

There are a lot of companies who are hoping to make money off of this technology.

你自己就创办了几家开发CRISPR-Cas9疗法的公司。

You've started several companies that are developing CRISPR Cas nine treatments.

但我们该担心吗？

But should we be worried?

因为企业并不总是以道德高尚著称。

Because companies are not always known for taking the moral high ground.

对吧？

Right?

你说得对，我认为这确实需要时刻保持警惕。

You're right that I think this is always something that needs vigilance.

我们必须保持警惕，不能松懈。

One has to, you know, you can't relax.

要记住，这类技术总是伴随着风险。

You have to remember, you know, there's there's always the risks that go along with the technology like this.

但企业在这其中扮演着极其重要的角色，因为通常学术实验室缺乏资金和资源来完成这些工作。

But companies play an incredibly important role in all of this because generally this is not something that academic labs have the funding or the resources to do.

而这正是企业介入的领域。

And that's where companies come in.

那么你如何平衡商业利益与道德伦理？

So how do you balance your business interests with your ethics?

我认为这要从一开始就着手。

I think it begins at the at the beginning.

你必须从创建团队文化开始，这种文化要聚焦于技术的道德使用，以及在公司背景下开发技术所能创造的效益。

You have to start with, creating a culture in your team that, focuses on ethical use of of the technology and the benefit that can be created by developing it in the context of the company.

作为创始人，我为自己参与过的团队感到自豪，我认为在每种情况下，这些都是我喜欢且信任的人。

I've been proud of the teams that I've been involved with as a founder that I think in each case, these are are people who I like, I trust.

我认为我们在核心价值观上是一致的，既要追求卓越科学，又要兼顾伦理道德，并合理使用这一强大工具。

I think we have aligned values, core values in terms of both doing excellent science and doing it with an eye towards ethics and, appropriate use of a a powerful tool.

这些能力将推动生物系统领域那些曾经只能梦想的事物，直到我们真正实现它们。

Those capabilities will advance, you know, the kinds of of things that have only been dreamt of in biological systems to a point where we can actually achieve them.

想象一下有人得到了某种诊断结果。

Imagine that someone gets a diagnosis for something.

甚至可能是预诊断阶段。

Maybe it's even pre diagnosis.

他们进行了DNA测序，结果显示未来有患阿尔茨海默病的遗传倾向。

It's they get their DNA sequenced and the result comes back that they have susceptibility to Alzheimer's disease in the future.

想象一下未来，或许能利用CRISPR这类技术改变基因，使人不再具有这种遗传倾向。

Imagine in the future, it's possible to use a technology like CRISPR to change those genetics so that, that person is no longer, has that susceptibility.

如果我们能实现这一点，那将是革命性的突破。

That would be extraordinary if we get to that point.

我们能在三十年内实现这一目标吗？

Will we get there in thirty years?

我不知道，但我认为这完全有可能。

I don't know, but I think it's entirely possible that we will.

这位是生物化学家珍妮弗·杜德纳。

That's biochemist Jennifer Doudna.

你可以在ted.com观看她的TED演讲。

You can see her TED Talks at ted.com.

稍后我们将从身体转向思维，探讨预测人类认知未来发展的研究者们。

In a minute, we'll turn from the body to the mind and the people predicting what will come next for how we think.

这里是NPR的TED广播时间，我们特别系列《科技预言家》的第三部分。

It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR and part three of our special series, the prophets of technology.

我们稍后回来。

We'll be right back.

本信息来自TED Talks Daily播客，每天为您带来一个新观点。

This message comes from TED Talks Daily, the podcast that brings you a new idea every day.

了解正在改变人类的事物——从平衡人工智能与批判性思维，到关于青少年大脑的突破性发现。

Learn what's transforming humanity from balancing AI in your critical thinking to surpassing discoveries about the adolescent brain.

在您收听的地方订阅TED Talks Daily

Find TED Talks Daily wherever you listen.

这里是NPR的TED Radio Hour节目

It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

我是马努什·扎莫罗迪，这是我们特别系列《科技先知》的第三部分

I'm Manoush Zamorodi, and this is part three of our special series, the prophets of tech.

我们将与那些预测并塑造了我们当今数字世界的发明家和科学家对话，探讨他们认为未来将走向何方

We're talking to the inventors and scientists who have predicted and shaped the digital world we live in today and asking them where they think we're headed next.

今天，我们将聚焦于人体这个话题。

Today, we are focusing on the human body.

如今，心脏有问题的人安装心脏起搏器，或听力障碍者植入人工耳蜗已很常见。

Right now, it's not unusual for someone with heart problems to get a pacemaker or someone with hearing problems to get a cochlear implant.

但如果身体有缺陷的人在大脑中植入设备也变得稀松平常呢？

But what if it becomes totally normal for someone with physical limitations to get an implant in their brain?

目前正在展开一场研发神经植入设备（又称脑机接口）的竞赛。

There is a race going on to develop neural implants or as they're called, brain computer interfaces, BCIs.

《华尔街日报》估计，全球仅有不到一百名瘫痪患者永久植入了这类设备。

The Wall Street Journal estimates that fewer than a hundred people with paralysis have had one of these devices permanently implanted.

但许多临床试验正在进行，竞争领先的各家公司都有自己独特的大脑植入技术方案。

But many clinical trials are ongoing, and the companies jockeying to get ahead each have their own approach to putting technology inside the brain.

其中创伤最小的技术方案来自血管神经外科医生汤姆·奥克斯利。

One of the least invasive approaches comes from vascular neurosurgeon Tom Oxley.

我是脑机接口公司Synchron的创始首席执行官。

And I'm the founding CEO of Synchron, a brain computer interface company.

汤姆的公司研发了Stentroad脑植入设备，旨在帮助患有神经系统疾病、无法移动身体或说话的患者。

Tom's company makes the Stentroad, a brain implant to help people with neurological diseases who can't move their bodies or speak.

这项技术相当于在大脑上方放置一个类似麦克风的装置，绕过身体无法传递运动意图或意志的障碍。

So this technology is a way to put almost what is a microphone right on top of the brain and bypassing the inability of the body to transmit out your intention or your will to move.

2020年，他们开始在人体上测试该设备，其中包括一位名叫菲利普·奥基夫的受试者。

In 2020, they started testing their device in people, including a man named Philip O'Keefe.

菲利普是我们首例人体植入式脑机接口临床研究的第二位参与者。

Philip was the second participant in our first in human study of our implantable brain computer interface.

他居住在澳大利亚墨尔本。

He lives in Melbourne, Australia.

菲利普患有ALS（肌萎缩侧索硬化症），随着病情发展，他逐渐丧失对身体的控制能力。

And Philip has ALS or motor neuron disease, and he was facing a progressing loss of control of his body as the ALS progressed.

想象一下，如果你的肌肉停止工作但大脑仍在运转，某种意义上你会被囚禁在自己的躯壳里。

So if your muscles stop working but your brain is still working, you can, in a sense, become trapped inside your head.

本质上，这项技术能解码大脑试图激活的身体部位，然后发出信号控制光标移动或鼠标点击。

Basically, the technology decodes what part of the body the brain is trying to activate and then sends out a signal that makes a cursor move or a computer mouse click.

是的。

Yeah.

所以即使身体无法移动，你也能通过想象移动来直接操控鼠标或键盘。

So you're able to directly manipulate a mouse or a keyboard by thinking about trying to move even though your body is no longer moving.

几乎就像是直接从大脑控制的蓝牙鼠标，可以在任何系统上工作。

Almost like a Bluetooth mouse directly controlled out of the brain that can work on any system.

菲利普最初使用他的脑机接口完成简单任务，比如发送邮件和浏览网页。

Philip started off doing simple tasks using his BCI, like sending an email and browsing the web.

但一年后，他想更上一层楼，于是发了一条推文。

But after a year, he wanted to take things to the next level, so he sent out a tweet.

第一条推文写道：你好，世界。

The first tweet said, hello, world.

这对他意义非凡。

That was what it meant to him.

他是在向世界问好，因为他已经沉默太久了。

He was saying hello back to the world because he'd gone quiet.

他曾陷入沉寂，如今重获新生。

He'd gone dark, and and he was back.

而这正是这项技术的真正意义所在。

And that's that's really what this technology is about.

菲利普·奥基夫无法像你一样用手指打字，但得益于一个微型脑部植入装置，他成功发送了以下推文。

Philip O'Keefe can't use his fingers to type like you are, but thanks to a tiny brain implant, he was able to send the following tweets.

这是汤姆·奥克斯利在TED讲台上的演讲。

Here's Tom Oxley on the TED stage.

你好，世界。

Hello, world.

简短的推文。

Short tweet.

划时代的进步。

Monumental progress.

无需敲击键盘或发出声音。

No need for keystrokes or voices.

我仅凭思考就发出了这条推文。

I created this tweet just by thinking it.

我希望能为人们实现通过思维发推文铺平道路。

My hope is that I pave the way for people to be able to tweet through thoughts.

已发送。

Filled.

现在，你可能会想，有些人不应该被允许直接从大脑发推文。

Now, you might be thinking there are some people out there who should not be allowed to tweet directly from their brain.

我同意。

I agree.

但对于瘫痪和残障人士来说，这项技术可能改变人生。

But for people with paralysis and disability, this technology can be life changing.

他们会将脑信号显示在屏幕上，通过蓝牙连接到电脑，设备完全内置，对外界不可见，他们学会用直接来自大脑的点击来控制键盘。

They will fill up brain signals up on the screen, they're connected to their computers via Bluetooth, the device is fully internalized, invisible to the outside world, and they learn to control the keyboard with clicks directly coming from their brain.

现在，脑机接口让人联想到《黑客帝国》这样的科幻场景——通过颅骨上的孔洞将电缆插入大脑，但我在这里要告诉你，未来可以

Now, BCIs conjure up images of science fiction like The Matrix, with a cable jacked up into your brain through a hole in your skull, but I'm here to show you that the future can be

远比那要优雅得多。

much more elegant than that.

你还记得第一次听说脑机接口是什么时候吗？

Do you remember the first time that you heard about brain computer interfaces?

因为人们尝试实现这个已经有一段时间了。

Because people have been trying to do this for a while.

对吧？

Right?

首例人类植入报告是2006年由Lee Hochberg及其团队在《自然》杂志发表的，我立刻被这种变革性技术的构想深深吸引。

The first report of a human implant was in 2006 by Lee Hochberg and colleagues in Nature, and I was immediately besotted with the idea that this was going to be a transformational technology.

我选择从医是因为热爱大脑研究。

I went into medicine because I loved the brain.

大脑充满神秘与浪漫——它究竟是什么，如何运作，如何产生意识。

There was this mystery and romanticism about what the brain was, how it worked, how it generated consciousness.

而后你意识到，面对神经系统疾病，我们能做的其实很有限。

And then you realize that there's not many things that you can do for neurological disease.

你无法逆转神经元的死亡。

You can't reverse the death of neurons.

你无法替换神经元。

You can't replace neurons.

我意识到这是医学领域中相对落后于其他治疗手段的一个分支。

And I realized that this is a field in medicine which is sort of behind the other areas of medicine and ability to treat conditions.

我突然意识到，直接与大脑交互的能力将改变这一现状。

And it struck me that the ability to directly interface with the brain was going to change that.

因为在那之前，科学家们不得不直接在人脑上钻孔并植入设备。

Because up until then, what scientists have been trying to do, they had to go directly, like, drill a hole and put a device in people's brain.

这就是当时的挑战所在吗？

Is that what the challenge was?

是的。

Yeah.

早期突破性研究设备是一组固定在基座上的针状电极，这些针状物被插入脑组织，能够记录大脑发出的信息。

The breakthrough early research device is a series of needles that sit on a base, and those needles get pushed into the brain tissue, and they are able to record information out of the brain.

将针头插入大脑存在一个问题，那就是可能引发炎症反应。

There's an issue with putting a needle into the brain, and that is that it can cause a inflammation reaction.

大脑不喜欢被侵入。

The brain does not like to be invaded.

大脑的免疫反应与身体其他部位不同。

The brain has an immune response, which is different to the rest of the body.

你可以在皮下纹身而不会引起剧烈炎症反应，但在大脑上就不一定行得通。

You can put a tattoo under your skin, and it will not cause a huge inflammatory reaction, but you can't do that necessarily on the brain.

所以我的构想是：我们如何避免直接在大脑中植入东西？

So my concept was, well, how do we avoid putting something directly into the brain?

我们能做到的次优方案是什么？

What's the next closest we could do?

我们的想法是尝试解决如何让这些传感器进入血管，并能在其中终身留存。

And the idea that we had was let's try and solve getting these sensors into the blood vessels, and it can stay there for a lifetime.

血管是通往大脑的天然高速公路。

The blood vessels are the natural highways into the brain.

这些是连接大脑各个角落的中空管道。

These are hollow tubes that connect every corner of the brain.

顶部最大的静脉紧邻运动皮层，正是我们想要连接以恢复对外界控制的大脑区域。

The largest vein at the top there is right next to the motor cortex, the exact part of the brain that we want to connect to to restore control to the outside world.

现在，我们已经知道如何通过血管进行导航。

Now, we already know how to travel through the blood vessels.

如果在座各位有人曾心脏病发作，很可能已经植入过支架。

If anyone here today has had a heart attack, there's a pretty good chance you've had a stent.

支架是通过导管输送的金属支架，会像花朵一样在血管中展开。

A stent is a metal scaffold delivered through a catheter, which opens up like a flower into the blood vessel.

每年有数百万个支架被植入，不是在手术室，而是在导管室或导管实验室完成。

Millions of stents are delivered each year, not in the OR, but in the cath lab or catheter laboratory.

如今在导管室通过血管导航进入大脑已是常规操作。

It's now common in the cath lab to navigate up into the brain through the blood vessels.

但最令人惊叹的是，对于脑机接口而言，我们已经知道设备可以长期留在血管内，细胞会在其表面生长，像皮下纹身一样将其融入血管壁，从而避免免疫反应。

But what's really amazing about this is that for BCIs, we already know that devices can be left inside a blood vessel, cells grow over it, incorporate it into the wall like a tattoo under the skin, and we're protected from that immune reaction.

所以你们基本上是把脑机接口建在了支架上，而且不是直接植入大脑，而是植入脑血管中。

So you've basically built a brain computer interface into a stent, and you place it not just in the brain, but in the brain's blood vessels.

对吗？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

这太不可思议了。

It's extraordinary.

你能带我了解那个过程吗？

Can you take me through that process?

手术过程包括将导管插入颈部的颈静脉，然后通过颈静脉进入颅骨的一个预先存在的小孔。

The procedure involves putting a catheter into the jugular vein in the neck, then slipped up inside the skull through a little pre existing hole that the jugular vein goes up.

这有点像沿着大脑的排水管道上行。

It's it's kind of going up the drain pipes of the brain.

然后你沿着这些管道一路向上进入大脑，直到抵达位于运动皮层正上方的血管。

So you carry your way up through those pipes all the way up into the brain until you sit on the blood vessel that's sitting right on top of the motor cortex.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而我们当时需要解决的难题是如何放置传感器？

And what we had to solve was how do you put sensors?

如何在这个支架上构建电子电路？

How do you build an electronic circuit onto that stent?

然后这个装置会展开。

So then that device opens up.

它固定在血管内。

It sits in the blood vessel.

它连接着一根电缆。

It's connected to a cable.

电缆从颈部的颈静脉处穿出，然后接入胸部的设备，将大脑信息无线传输到体外。

That cable exits that point in the neck and the jugular, and it plugs into a device in the chest that sends the information from the brain wirelessly out of the body.

所以如果你看到植入该装置的患者，从外表完全看不出异样。

So if you were to look at the patient with the device in, you wouldn't know that it was there.

好的。

Okay.

那么一旦支架植入后，患者只需想着什么，信息就会直接输出到键盘上吗？

So once the stent has been put in, do you just think something and out it comes onto the keyboard?

你们如何训练患者有效运用思维通过技术进行沟通？

How do you do you have to train the patient in order to use their mind effectively to communicate through technology?

患者确实需要接受训练。

The patients do undergo training.

有趣的是，我们天生的大脑结构中有专门控制肌肉的区域，这部分大脑只负责这一功能。

What's interesting is that we are born in bodies where there's a part of the brain attached to a muscle and that's all that part of the brain does.

比如你现在握拳，大脑中就有特定区域在为此放电。

So if you make a fist right now, there's a very particular part of your brain that's firing to do that.

但一旦将这种信号数字化，就能将原本特定的动作（比如握拳、竖起手指或弯曲手肘）映射到计算机操作——患者会意识到某个动作对应特定指令，而切换动作模式则执行不同功能。

But once you digitize that, you can apply what used to be a particular movement, say closing a fist or putting up your finger or bending your elbow and the patient will realize that that performs a particular task on the computer and then in a different mode of action it does a different thing.

举个常见的例子，就像玩任天堂或PlayStation游戏手柄时的操作逻辑。

So probably a good example is thinking if you've ever played a video game with a Nintendo controller or a, you know, or a PlayStation controller.

当你刚开始玩一款新游戏时，得低头看手柄按键，比如某个键可能是跳跃、射击或执行游戏中的某个动作。

When you first start playing a new game, you have to look down on the buttons and, you know, the button might jump or fire or do something in the game.

但在不同游戏中，同一个按键会有不同功能。所以每款新游戏都需要重新学习按键对应的操作——最初几次你可能需要盯着手指操作，但很快就能形成肌肉记忆，不再需要刻意关注。

But in a different game it'll serve a different purpose so in each different game you have to learn what your fingers are doing when they hit the button and for the first couple of attempts you'll be watching your fingers but then eventually you'll stop looking because you'll just know what it does and you'll stop thinking about it.

这其实是同样的原理。

So it's the same concept.

我们坚信第一代脑机接口必须做到极简操作。

We have a belief that the first brain computer interface should be very easy to use.

它必须足够可靠。

It should be robust.

应该将学习成本降到最低。

It should require very little training.

用户不需要花费数周或数月来学习使用，开机即用才是理想状态。

You shouldn't have to spend weeks or months learning how to use it, and it should work as soon as you turn it on.

Synchron公司近期宣布与苹果合作，为手部功能障碍人群开发专用设备。

Synchron recently announced a collaboration with Apple to build devices for people who can't use their hands.

尽管用思维控制我们的技术可能还需要数年时间，但这个概念听起来已不像从前那样遥不可及。

And while controlling our tech with our minds is probably still years away, the concept doesn't sound quite as far fetched as it once did.

脑机接口领域最著名的人物当然是埃隆·马斯克，他描绘了一个人们能用思维控制各种事物的愿景。

One of the most famous people who's in this brain computer interface field is, of course, Elon Musk, and he has laid out a vision where people control all kinds of things with their minds.

不仅是虚拟现实游戏，还远不止于此。

Virtual reality games, but also way more than that.

他谈论的是大脑与人工智能的融合。

He's talking about the brain fusing with artificial intelligence.

你是否也在考虑这些可能性——不仅适用于有医疗需求的人群，也面向任何希望增强心智的人？

Are are you thinking of those things too where it's not just for people who have medical issues, but for anyone who wants to enhance their mind?

我看网飞剧，也读科幻小说。

I watch Netflix, and I read science fiction novels.

我能预见一个可能的结果：这项技术将发展到让人类能以前所未有的方式控制事物。

And I can see that there's a likely outcome where this technology progresses into humans being able to control things in a way which wasn't previously possible.

关键在于我们谈论的是一个非常长的时间尺度，我认为人们必须记住：这项技术对于丧失与世界互动能力的人群至关重要。

The thing is that we're talking on a very long time scale, and I think it's important for people to remember that this technology is critical for people who have lost the ability to engage in the world.

所以我只是担心讨论会陷入百年后的时间框架，我们开始关注所有可能出错的情况，却忘记了当下我们为何要做这件事以及为谁而做。

So I just worry that the conversation goes into a hundred year out time frame, and we start looking at all the possibilities of how this could go wrong, and we forget why actually we're doing this right now and who is it for.

你知道，我并非忽视这项技术发展所带来的伦理考量。

You know, I'm not dismissing the ethical considerations for where this goes.

就像，我看过《黑镜》，我认为解决之道在于现在就把问题限定在真正帮助人们所需的范围内，并建立一个非常严格的监管框架，确保技术应用不越界。

Like, I've I've seen Black Mirror, and I think the answer to that is let's confine the problem right now to what is needed to really help people and lay down a really strict regulatory framework about, you know, remaining in that domain.

我是说，关键就在这里。

I mean, that's the thing.

对吧？

Right?

这是医疗设备与硅谷乌托邦式——或许有些超前的未来主义——的交集。

It's it's a Venn diagram of medical device and Silicon Valley utopian, maybe out there futurism.

而且，你的公司毕竟是一家盈利性企业。

And, I mean, your company, it's a for profit company.

你们接受了风险投资，想必投资者希望你们尽可能快速推进并扩大规模。

You've taken venture capital, and presumably, your investors would like you to move as fast as you possibly can with this and scale it.

所以我想知道，伦理考量何时介入？这类对话何时开始？

So I guess I'm wondering when do the ethical considerations like, when does that conversation start?

因为我们过去看到太多技术在这方面起步太晚。

Because we've seen it start way too late with so many other technologies in the past.

我是说，你说得对。

I mean, you're right.

对我们来说，这场对话已经开始了。

The conversation has started for us.

我们制定了伦理章程。

We have a ethical charter.

我们成立了专门小组。

We have a a group that's set up.

我们内部经常就此展开讨论。

We have internal conversations about this a lot.

我们正与FDA保持密切沟通，持续就这些问题进行定期磋商。

We're talking with the FDA, and we've been in close contact with them and continue to discuss these issues in an ongoing basis.

我认为整个社区对此非常重视。

I think the community's taking it very seriously.

从技术乌托邦的维恩图来看，我认为我们的投资者之所以投资，是因为他们看到了医疗领域对瘫痪治疗存在巨大的未满足需求。

The kind of Venn diagram into the tech utopia, I think our investors are investing because they see that there is a huge unmet need in the medical domain for paralysis.

现在，我想补充的一点是，如果要前瞻性地思考临界点会是什么样子，以及消费领域哪些人会率先尝试这项技术，我想到的类比是LASIK手术。

Now, I mean, one other thing that I'd probably add to it is if I was to think ahead about what it might look like into that tipping point and who would be the people in the consumer world that would start to do this, the corollary I think about is LASIK surgery.

LASIK手术始于三十年前，用激光在你的眼球上操作，能改善视力。

LASIK surgery started thirty years ago, and it's a laser on your eyeball, and it makes you see better.

这是一个当天就能完成的门诊手术。

This is a procedure that's a day procedure.

你需要去医院。

You have to go into a hospital.

你需要看医生。

You have to see a physician.

这项手术受FDA监管。

It's regulated by FDA.

但如果你的视力问题只是轻微，你仍然可以选择接受手术，权衡风险与收益后决定是否进行。

But if your visual disturbance is only mild, you can still go and do that and you can take on the risk and benefit to get that done.

我认为脑机接口可能会朝这个方向发展。

I think BCI might go in that direction.

我不是说明年就能实现，这可能需要十五年的时间跨度，但一旦技术被证明安全有效，成为日间手术且对外界不可见，社会上很可能会有一部分人认为，他们希望无需触碰任何东西就能操作系统，这样就不用拿着手机了。

I'm not saying next year, this is probably like on a fifteen year horizon, but once the technology is demonstrated to be safe and effective and it's in a day procedure and it's invisible to the outside world, there probably will be a portion of society who think, well, I would like to be able to engage in systems without having to touch anything so I don't have to hold my phone.

我能预见这种可能性。

I can see that as a possibility.

展望未来，我对脑机接口在癫痫、抑郁症和痴呆等其他病症上可能带来的突破感到非常兴奋。

In the future, I'm really excited about the breakthroughs BCI could deliver to other conditions like epilepsy, depression and dementia.

但除此之外，这对人类意味着什么？

But beyond that, what is this going to mean for humanity?

真正让我思考的是未来沟通方式的变革。

What's really got me thinking is the future of communication.

以情感为例。

Take emotion.

你有没有想过，表达自己的感受有多困难？

Have you ever considered how hard it is to express how you feel?

你需要自我反思，将情感包装成语言，然后用嘴部肌肉说出这些话，但你真正想要的只是让对方理解你的感受。

You have to self reflect, package the emotion into words, and then use the muscles of your mouth to speak those words, but you really just want someone to know how you feel.

对于某些患有特定病症的人来说，这根本不可能做到。

For some people with certain conditions, that's impossible.

那么，如果不用语言，而是直接传递你的情感几秒钟，让对方真切感受到你的感受呢？

So what if rather than using your words, you could throw your emotion just for a few seconds and have them really feel how you feel?

在那一刻，我们会意识到，用语言来表达当下存在状态的方式永远都有局限。

At that moment, we would have realized that the necessary use of words to express our current state of being was always going to fall short.

大脑的全部潜能将由此被释放。

The full potential of the brain would then be unlocked.

你提到关于人类大脑和思维运作仍存在许多未解之谜。

You mentioned just how many mysteries there still are about the human brain and and how our minds work.

目前我们对这方面的理解进展到什么程度了？

Where are we now in that understanding?

我是说，感觉我们已经绘制了人类基因组图谱。

I mean, it feels like, you know, we we we've mapped the human genome.

那很令人兴奋。

That was exciting.

我们现在开始听说人们接受基因治疗的消息。

We're now starting to hear about people getting genetic treatments.

我们在大脑和意识研究方面进展如何？

Where are we with the brain, with our minds?

对我来说，最大的谜团是潜意识。

For me, the huge mystery is the unconscious.

你知道，我们大体上已经绘制了大脑图谱并理解它，但我们还没弄清楚梦中那个随机混乱的潜意识世界如何影响我们的日常生活。

You know, we've, for the most part, mapped the brain and understand it, but we have not figured out how the random chaotic unconscious world that exists when we're dreaming interacts with our day to day life.

我最初学的是精神病学，后来决定放弃，因为我觉得我们还没有完整的生物学或生理学框架来理解人们为何会痛苦。

I started psychiatry, and I decided not to do psychiatry because I didn't feel like we fully had a biological or physiological framework to understand why people were suffering.

但我仍然不觉得我们真正破解了潜意识的工作原理，也还没将其整合到一个清晰的生理学框架中。

But I still don't feel like we've really cracked how the unconscious works, and we haven't integrated that into a clear physiological framework yet.

所以我现在正处于探索之旅中。

And so I'm on a journey right now.

我认为脑机接口技术令人惊叹。

I think BCI has been incredible.

它开始等同于对大脑运作方式的反向工程，而大脑在不同区域的工作方式相似，我们现在正在了解这一点。

It starts to equate to a reverse engineering of how the brain works, and the brain works similarly in different parts, and we're learning that now.

但我希望在我们有生之年，能在整合整个心智方面取得重大突破，这包括潜意识和集体无意识。

But I'm hoping that over our lifetime, we're gonna have major breakthroughs in the ability to integrate the whole mind, which includes the subconscious and the collective unconscious.

我认为未来五十年解开这些谜团将会非常有趣。

I think it's gonna be a really interesting fifty years to unlock those mysteries.

这位是汤姆·奥克斯利博士。

That's doctor Tom Oxley.

他是一名神经介入专家，也是Synchron公司的创始人兼首席执行官。

He is a neuro interventionist and the founder and CEO of Synchron.

你可以在ted.com上观看汤姆的完整演讲。

You can see Tom's full talk at ted.com.

接下来，如果技术能访问你的大脑和身体，你如何确保自己的思想和行为仍属于你自己？

Coming up, if technology has access to your brain and body, how do you make sure that your thoughts and actions are still your own?

不难预见，我们正快速进入一个世界，在那里你的所思所感将同样透明，并能通过人工智能和神经技术轻易解码。

It's not that hard to see that we're quickly moving into a world where what you're thinking and feeling is just as transparent and can be just as easily decoded using AI and neurotechnology.

我们将聆听法律学者妮达·法拉哈尼的见解，关于为何她认为我们需要在法律上保护自己的情感和思想。

We'll hear from legal scholar Nida Farahany on why she thinks we need to protect our emotions and ideas legally.

我们仍保留着部分自我。

There's still a part of us we hold back.

对吧？

Right?

你仍拥有这些想法，你的反应和感受并未体现在短信内容和GPS定位数据中。

There's still these thoughts you have, the way you react and feel that isn't expressed in your text messages and your GPS location data.

而这正是我所担忧的——当我们进入这种思维透明的世界时，如果没有建立恰当的防护机制，那些我认为构成人性本质、让人蓬勃发展的部分，可能突然不再属于我们自己。

And that's the part that I fear that when we get to this world of of brain transparency, if we don't have the right kind of safeguards in place, that that which I think is so fundamental to what it means to be human, what it means to flourish as a human, may suddenly not be our own.

我是马诺杰·扎莫罗迪，您正在收听NPR推出的TED广播时间《科技红利》系列节目。

I'm Manoj Zamorodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hours profits of technology series from NPR.

请继续收听。

Stay with us.

这里是NPR的TED广播时间。

It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

我是曼诺伊·扎莫罗迪。

I'm Manoj Zamorodi.

您正在收听的是我们特别的三集系列节目《科技先知》。

You've been listening to our special three part series, The Prophets of Tech.

现在，我们想以对公民自由理念的探讨作为结束。

And we wanna end things now with a look at our ideas of civil liberty.

当我们进入这个设备与人工智能相结合的新时代，这些理念是否需要发展，以增强和影响我们的身体和心灵？

Do these ideas need to evolve as we enter this new era of devices combined with AI that can enhance and influence our bodies and minds?

正如我们听到汤姆·奥克斯利所说，神经植入物可能需要很多年才能足够安全、便宜和有效，使身体健全的人愿意为了植入设备而冒险接受脑部手术。

As we heard Tom Oxley say, it will likely be many years before neural implants are safe enough, cheap enough, and effective enough for able-bodied people to risk getting brain surgery for the purpose of putting a device inside of it.

但大脑监测和增强的时代已经开始了。

But the era of brain monitoring and enhancement has already begun.