创意的代价

这里是TED广播时间。每周都有突破性的TED演讲。

This is the TED Radio Hour. Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks.

我们现在的任务就是大胆梦想。

Our job now is to dream big.

这些演讲在TED大会上呈现。

Delivered at TED conferences.

去实现我们期待的未来。

To bring about the future we want to see.

来自全球各地。为了理解我们是谁。从这些演讲中，我们为您带来会令您惊喜的演讲者和观点。

Around the world. To understand who we are. From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you.

你永远不知道会发现什么。

You just don't know what you're gonna find.

挑战你。我们真的必须

Challenge you. We truly have to

扪心自问，为什么这值得关注？

ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy?

甚至能改变你。我真的感觉自己焕然一新了。是的。你呢

And even change you. I literally feel like I'm a different person. Yes. Do you

也有同感吗？

feel that way?

值得传播的思想。这里是TED和NPR，我是曼努什·扎莫罗迪。放眼望去，人们都在制作、创作、写作、拍照并分享到网上。今天是我作为内容创作者正式三周年纪念日。所以我开始自己缝制衣服。

Ideas worth spreading. From Ted and NPR, I'm Manoush Zamorodi. It feels like everywhere you look, people are making and crafting and writing and taking photos to share online. Today is my official three year anniversary as a content creator. So I make my own clothes.

我超爱这条裙子。

I love this dress.

我正在为妹妹建造一座迷你小屋。但

I'm building a tiny home for my sister. But

这些创造力究竟从何而来？

where is all this creativity coming from?

像创造力这样的词汇感觉永恒不朽，如同空气般自然。它就像是生命的基础层面。

A word like creativity feels eternal, as natural as air. It's like the base level of all of life.

这位是企业家、音乐家兼作家杨西·斯特里克兰。他是创造力历史方面的狂热爱好者。

This is entrepreneur, musician, and writer, Yancey Strickler. He is a sort of creativity history buff.

我们常犯的一个错误是，总以为周围世界向来如此。即便是像艺术和创造力这样根基性的概念也不例外。

Well, a a common mistake we all make is assuming that the world around us has always been this way. And this is even the case when it comes to ideas that are as bedrock as art and creativity.

但在二十世纪四十年代，美国政府开始高度重视这些领域。

But in the nineteen forties, the US government started taking these fields very seriously.

部分源于国防部的研究与资金支持——二战后，人们担忧美国社会变得过于同质化，美国也担心与苏联对抗。因此需要个性来对抗这种极权社会。于是国防部和一些社会科学家开始研究对策：如何解决这种趋同性问题？

And in part from Department of Defense, research and funding, post World War two, people were worried about American society becoming too homogenous, and The US was worried about facing off against the Soviet Union. And so they needed individuality to to contend with this totalitarian society. So the defense department and some social scientists began to study this question of what to do about it. What do we do about this issue of conformity?

随着美国人民对他们所期望之事做出明确决断，相关理念的发展也应运而生。

On come the developments of ideas in pace with the emphatic decisions of the American people as to what they want.

当时白领人数首次超过蓝领。他们最终提出了'创造力'这一概念——这是通过研究艺术家和工程师（特别是熬夜加班的工程师）发现的，他们想弄明白是什么驱动力促使这些人工作。

This is when there were more white collar workers than blue collar workers for the first time. And they ended up proposing a concept of something called creativity, which they discovered after studying artists and engineers, in particular engineers who pulled all nighters, and they want to understand what made them work, what motivated them.

为此，他们给这些人做了从罗夏墨迹测验到迈尔斯-布里格斯性格测试等各种评估。

To do that, they gave them everything from Worschach tests to the Myers Briggs personality test.

他们发现这些人内心有一种让事物变得更好的驱动力。他们就是被这种动力驱使着。于是他们开始思考：如果能教会人们培养同样的能力会怎样？他们可以教授人们这种创造力的概念。那么创造力就会成为一种人人都能接触到的民主化天才形式。

And they found that these people had this internal drive to make things better. They had they're just driven in that way. So they began to theorize that what if they could teach people to develop the same skill? They could teach people this notion of creativity. Then creativity would be this democratic form of genius that anyone could access.

从那时起，推动创造性思维的浪潮便开始了。1958年的一项法案特别提倡科技教育，目的是让孩子们以国防的名义进行差异化思考。

From there, the push for creative thinking took off. A 1958 bill promoted science and technology education, specifically to get kids to think differently in the name of national defense.

六十年代，创意写作开始进入美国学校，头脑风暴、开放式思维等练习被有意识地作为培养儿童创造力的方法。发展创造力被视为美国的战略目标。这种趋势一直延续至今，以至于像我这样的人——我认为自己是第二代创意美国人——在公立学校接受了所有这些教育。可以说，创造力已深深融入我的生活。

In the sixties, creative writing began to enter American schools, brainstorming, open open ended thinking sort of practices. And these were intentionally created as a way to teach children how to be creative. Developing creativity was seen as a strategic goal of America. That has continued ever since, to where someone like me, I think of myself as a second generation creative American, where I went to public schools, I was taught all of these things, And, you know, creativity is very much a deep part of my life.

这段历史大多记载在塞缪尔·L·富兰克林2023年出版的《创造力崇拜》一书中。

Much of this history is chronicled in the 2023 book, The Cult of Creativity by Samuel l Franklin.

想到创造力竟有这样的起源确实很奇特——它最初竟是为了提高人们生产力、制造更具影响力事物而服务的军工目的。但越是深入思考，我越觉得这其实很美：这是通过社会科学家孕育的。人们能敏锐地追问并研究他人如何保持联系、热爱所从事的事业，探究是什么让那些独特的声音与众不同。我们如何才能拥有更多这样的声音？

It was very strange to think that there was this origin to creativity, that it had this military industrial purpose that was made to make people more productive and to make things that were more impactful. But the more I sat with it, the more I actually think it's beautiful that this is something that originated through a social scientist. That people had the sensitivity to ask and to study how other people stayed connected and loved what they did. To ask what makes those distinct voices distinct. How could we have more of them?

我们如何用'民主化天才'的理念来传授这种能力？所以当我看到当今世界——更多孩子想成为创作者而非其他任何职业，创意表达和文化真正成为美国一切的核心时——这就像政治运作的方式、经济运作的方式、一切运作的方式。

How could we teach that in this phrase of a democratic form of genius? And so when I look at the world now where more kids want to be creators than anything else, where creative expression and culture are at the center of really everything in America. It's like how politics works, how the economy works, how everything works.

我爱纽约。今天是周六。耶。

I love New York. It's Saturday. Yeah.

我所见的并非昙花一现，而是七十年前投资所结出的果实。在美国将创新文化作为立国核心理念的漫长进程中，我们仍在持续攀登，这也正是美国真正的独特之处。你能说ET吗？

What I see is not some momentary blip, but I see the payoffs of investments that were made seventy years ago. We are on a continued climb in this long process of America embracing creative culture as one of its founding core ideals and one of the things that really makes America distinct. Can you say ET?

ET。快跑，阿甘。快跑。

ET. Run, Forrest. Run.

因此当我审视二十一世纪，思考当前塑造世界的主导力量时，我认为是互联网、人工智能，还有创造力。

And so when I look at the twenty first century and I think what are the dominant forces that are shaping the world around us now, it's the Internet. It's AI, and it is also creativity.

我在Instagram上即将突破百万粉丝，这简直太疯狂了。

I'm about to hit a million followers on Instagram, which is absolutely nuts.

正在完成我的初稿

Finishing off my first draft

大概就在接下来两周内。

probably in the next two weeks.

听我原创的歌曲，也许我可以靠这个而不是去上大学。

Listening my original song, so maybe I can do this instead of going to college.

创造性解决问题、文化解决方案、设计导向的答案、思考等等。这是国家、是前几代人做出的长期投资，经过沉淀如今正爆发出前所未有的产出和成果。

Creative problem solving, cultural solutions, design oriented answers, thinking, all of that. This is a long term investment made by the state, made by past generations that has worked its way through and has now produced just an absolute explosion of output and production.

我用这个1960年代的缝纫图案。欢迎回到我的月度早餐俱乐部系列。

I use this nineteen sixties sewing pattern. Welcome back to my monthly breakfast club series.

我需要书籍装帧布或皮革之类的替代品。我经常用这种。

I'll need either book cloth or a substitute like leather. I frequently use this one.

但尽管美国人消费的创意内容比以往任何时候都多，你认为经济层面却跟不上。这并非全是天马行空的美好想象，存在严重问题。

But even though Americans are consuming more creative content than ever, you believe the economics are not keeping up. It's it's not all wild ideas and roses. There's a big problem.

没错。你看，现在创作者比以往任何时候都多，内容需求比以往任何时候都大，但支持体系却比以往任何时候都薄弱。每个艺术家和创意工作者此刻都感受到这种尖锐压力——我觉得自己正在掉队，甚至不知道该做什么，明白吗？

That's right. You know, right now, we find ourselves more people than ever creating, more demand for content than ever, yet less support systems than ever. And there's this very acute pressure that every artist and creative person feels right now of, like, I feel like I'm falling behind. I don't even know what to do. You know?

这个仿佛正在加速离我远去的世界到底是什么？

And what is this world that seems like it's sort of racing away from me?

在这个时代，任何人只要有一部手机就能自称创作者，半数年轻人表示希望成为网红——他们如何将这些产出转化为收入？这种商品化的创造力对艺术、金钱和文化意味着什么？接下来两期节目我们将深入探讨。首先，Kickstarter联合创始人杨西·斯特里克莱将解释为何资本主义需要转型以适应这个新市场。而下周，Z世代语言学家兼TikTok创作者亚当·亚历克西克将向我们展示算法如何重塑语言、注意力以及我们的价值取向。

In an era when anyone with a phone can call themselves a creator and half of all young people say they hope to become an influencer, how are they turning all this output into a paycheck? And what does all this commoditized creativity mean for art, money, and culture? Well, over the next two episodes, we're digging in. First, Kickstarter co founder, Yancey Strickler, explains why capitalism needs transition to accommodate this new marketplace. And then next week, Gen z linguist and TikTok creator Adam Aleksic shows us how algorithms are reshaping language, attention, and what we value.

他们将共同帮助我们理解创作者经济。让我们回到杨西的故事。2000年代初，他作为乐评人在纽约生活并经营一家小型唱片公司时，遇到了名叫陈佩里的人。

Together, they'll help us understand the creator economy. Let's get back to Yancey. In the early two thousands, he was living in New York working as a music critic and running a tiny record label when he met a guy named Perry Chen.

和我一样，他是个总在尝试启动项目的创意人士。他曾想办场音乐会但资金不足，于是想到：何不在网上直接发布这个创意？人们可以预购门票，只有票卖光演出才会举办。如果反响热烈自然好，就算不成他也不会损失资金，决定权完全交给大众。

Like me, he was a creative person always trying to get projects off the ground, and he had wanted to throw a concert but didn't have the money to do it. And thought, what if he could just propose the idea for the concert online? People could prepurchase tickets, and the show would only happen if it sold out. And if there was enough interest, no big deal. He wouldn't be out the money, and the people together could decide.

这个想法让我深有共鸣，因为当时创意人要获得项目支持，必须向某类正规公司或审批委员会提案。根本没有直接向世界展示创意的渠道。而让粉丝对我们想看什么拥有发言权，让艺术家和创意人不再需要某个人的许可，而是用作品愿景打动大众——这听起来要有趣得多。

And this idea really resonated with me because at the time, as a creative person, to get support for your projects, you had to go pitch like a proper company of some kind or some board of approval that you needed. There wasn't that direct path where you could just go out into the world with your own ideas. And the idea of letting us as fans have a voice in what we wanted to see and the idea that we as artists and creative people wouldn't need to ask for one person's permission, but instead convince people of the merit of our vision, that just seemed way more fun and more interesting.

他们与第三位联合创始人耗时数年终于打造出这个众筹平台，并将其命名为Kickstarter。

It ended up taking them plus a third cofounder years to create a platform that could let people crowdfund their projects. They called their site Kickstarter.

2009年Kickstarter上线首周就有项目筹资成功。虽然并非一夜爆红，但令人惊喜的是，从网站诞生的那一刻起，人们就理解了它的意义。他们将其视为一种游戏，整个平台充满能量。

In 2009, Kickstarter went live, and the very first week, a project was successfully funded. And wasn't an overnight success, but amazingly for us, from the moment the site was there, people got it. People understood what it was there for. They they saw it as a type of a game. It had an energy.

我们曾经的梦想真的实现了。对创意人而言，这彻底打开了新世界的大门——我们不再需要排队等候少数守门人的认可，而是能自由地按照自己的方式推进项目。它开启了如今我们称之为'创作者经济'的广阔天地，以及随之而来的一切可能。这个项目最早证明了互联网的力量，将信任和权力真正交到个人而非机构手中，不仅超出了我们所有预期，更源于我们作为创意人的切身体验。

It it like, we could have dreamed really happened. And for creative people, it just dramatically opened the doors to where no longer where we all lining up in front of these singular gatekeepers, but instead we really had the freedom to go out the way we wanted with our own projects and ideas. And it has just opened the floodgates to now, you know, a much bigger world that we call the creator economy and a whole bunch of other stuff. That project was really one of the first that showed what the Internet could do, that really put a lot of trust and a lot of power in the hands of individuals versus the institutions, and, you know, exceeded all of our expectations, but really came from our own experiences as creative people ourselves.

音乐家们通过朋友圈众筹制作专辑，作家们众筹出版新小说，甚至连Peloton和Allbirds这样的大公司最初都是在Kickstarter上起家的。

Musicians got their albums funded by groups of friends. Authors crowdfunded their new novels. Even huge companies like Peloton and Allbirds got their start on Kickstarter.

到目前为止，我想通过这个平台流转的资金大概有90亿美元左右。

At this point, I think it's $9,000,000,000 or something like that that's changed hands through the platform.

2017年，杨西辞去了CEO职务。

In 2017, Yancey stepped down as CEO.

我重新成为一名全职作家，写了一本书，领导着一个社群，做着所有我以为自己向往的事，成千上万的人聚集在我真正热衷的理念周围。

And I returned to being a full time writer, author. I wrote a book and was leading a community and was doing everything I thought I wanted and had thousands of people gathered around ideas I was really passionate about.

但他一直苦于如何让这个制作书籍和各种创意产品的群体实现财务可持续。他既不想创办非营利机构，也不愿再经营大公司。

But he struggled to figure out how to make this group of creative people who were making books and all kinds of other creative products financially viable. He didn't wanna start a nonprofit or another big company.

我不想成为金字塔顶端的人，我想和其他人共同参与某项事业。但我真的很困惑该如何实现——作为一个创作者，怎样才能拥有同行伙伴？难道要组建乐队？还是搞个集体？

I didn't want to be at the top of a pyramid. I wanted to be a part of something with other people, and I really struggled to see how to do that. How How do I, as a creative person, have peers? You know, do I have to start a band? Is it like a collective?

但集体听起来很可怕，好像要放弃自我身份。我不想那样。最后我想到了独立唱片厂牌的模式——厂牌可以代表某种场景、声音或地域，把形形色色的人凝聚在一起。厂牌的妙处在于，加入后你无需放弃个人特色，却能因融入更大的集体而受益。

But a collective seems scary. Collective seems like I'm supposed to give up my identity. Like, I don't I don't wanna do that. And so I ended up thinking about the model of an indie record label, where a way a label can sort of represent a scene or a sound or a place, and it can bring a lot of different people together around that. And what's cool about a label is like by being a part of a label, you're not giving up your individual voice, but you are just benefiting by being a part of something larger than you.

于是我开始思考，能否重新构想这样一种模式，不是围绕音乐，而是围绕任何形式的创意表达，让那些拥有共同目标或品味、渴望相互支持的人们，能有一个结构让他们实现这一点，轻松地共享资金、共享观众，而不必各自为战。

So I started thinking, could you reimagine something like that, not around music, but around any sort of creative form where people who had a common purpose or common taste, people who wanted mutual support, they can have a structure that let them do that and let them easily share money, share audiences, and just not be trapped on their own.

稍后我们将详细探讨扬西提出的解决方案，以及他认为这可能是赋予创意人士应得的权力和资金的途径。

In a minute, more about the answer that Yancey came up with and how he thinks it could be the way to give creative people the power and money they deserve.

在一个48%的美国人表示拥有个人创意实践的世界里，在一个艺术与文化已从边缘走向主流的时代，这造就了截然不同的环境条件。

In a world where 48% of Americans report having a personal creative practice, in a world where art and culture has gone from sideline to, like, main stage, It just creates a very different set of conditions.

本期节目将带来创作者经济系列的第一部分。我是曼努什·扎莫罗迪，您正在收听NPR的TED广播时间。稍后继续。这里是NPR的TED广播时间，我是曼诺什·扎莫罗迪。

Today on the show, part one of the creator economy. I'm Manoush Zamorodi, and you're listening to NPR's TED Radio Hour. We'll be right back. It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoj Zamorodi.

今天的节目将探讨创作者经济，嘉宾是作家兼企业家扬西·斯特里克拉。此前扬西阐释了当今创意观念的起源，以及为何越来越多人试图将创意追求转化为收入来源。

On the show today, the creator economy with writer and entrepreneur, Yancey Strickler. So earlier, Yancey explained the origins of how we think of creativity today and why more and more people are trying to turn their creative pursuits into a source of income.

我正在创作一件超级酷的粗野主义风格墙面艺术品。

I'm creating a super cool piece of, like, brutalist inspired wall art.

从艺术家到音乐人。

From artists and musicians.

我写了一首歌，现在要发布它

I wrote a song, and I'm posting it

给厨师们：这是我为八人生日宴准备的全部菜品。给时尚博主们：让我教你们如何搭配已有单品。每周伊始，社交媒体已将创意表达变成了一个全新产业。

to chefs. Here's everything I made for an eight person birthday. To fashion influencers. And let me teach you how to style what you already have. At the beginning of every week Social media has turned creative expression into a whole new industry.

这是我如何在TikTok直播一个月赚到约7000美元的。

Here's how I made about $7,000 going live on TikTok for one month.

我们采访了一位名叫Shivani Shah的内容创作者。她是一名专业舞者，疫情期间开始发布视频。

We talked to one content creator named Shivani Shah. She's a professional dancer who started posting videos during the pandemic.

我从未真正以'哦，我在创作内容'的视角来看待这件事。当时只是觉得，'疫情期间被困在家很无聊，我就做点这个发上去吧'。

I never really imagined it kind of from the lens of, oh, I'm creating content. It was just, oh, I'm doing this thing that, you know, I'm I'm stuck at home in in COVID. I'm bored. I'm just gonna do this thing and post it.

但她的视频引起了人们的关注，于是她开始与其他舞者在线合作。

But her videos caught people's attention, so she started collaborating with other dancers online.

这太疯狂了，因为我当时想，哇，这么多人真的喜欢我的作品，并且也想参与进来。

It was just crazy because I was like, wow. All these people, like, really love what I'm doing and wanna do it too.

希瓦妮开始通过这些平台和广告赚钱。她与另一位舞者共同打造了一个品牌。他们一起发布舞蹈视频，开设线下课程，甚至进行了巡回演出。

And Shivani started to make money from the platforms and advertising. She built a brand with another dancer. They posted routines together, had in person classes, even went on tour.

大家好，我们是Desi Fuse。我是希瓦妮，这是伊莎妮。我们都是从跳曳步舞开始的

Hi, everyone. We are Desi Fuse. I'm Shivani, and this is Ishani. And we both started shuffling in

随着收入增加，希瓦妮必须持续不断地发布内容。

the the money coming in, Shivani has to keep posting and posting.

是的。当你把创意爱好变成全职工作时，有时不得不做些不太感兴趣的工作来获取报酬。而那些真正想投入的、需要更多时间和创意的工作，往往反而无法带来收入。

Yeah. I mean, when you start pursuing your creative hobby full time, sometimes you have to do work that you're not that excited by just to get, like, the paycheck from it. And other times, the work you really wanna pour into that may require more time and creativity isn't the work that's also paying you.

如今，希瓦妮在全职内容创作和公司工作之间来回切换，以便获得医疗保险。这种平衡很脆弱，因为现实并不容易。根据高盛2023年的数据，只有4%的内容创作者年收入超过10万美元，其中大部分收入来自品牌合作或产品推广，其他收入则来自订阅或打赏。

Today, Shivani goes back and forth between full time content creation and working in the corporate world so that she can have health insurance. It's a tenuous mix because it's not easy out there. As of 2023, only 4% of content creators made more than a $100,000 per year according to Goldman Sachs. Most of those earnings come from brand deals or pitching products. Other revenue comes from subscriptions or donations.

但创作者经济预计在未来几年将增长至4800亿美元的规模。杨西·斯特里克拉认为，应该让更多人更容易参与其中。

But the creator economy is projected to grow to a $480,000,000,000 industry in the next few years. And Yancey Strickler believes it should just be easier for more people to take part in it.

人们通过线上平台展示才华、爱好和热情，并直接从观众那里获得报酬，或者在TikTok时代通过品牌代言产品获取收入，又或者在Instagram/TikTok商店销售自有产品——这种个人与受众直接连接的经济模式，将成为未来经济中极其重要的领域。

The act of people going online expressing their talent, their hobby, their passion, doing so in a way for which they are directly paid by their audience or in a TikTok era that they're paid by a brand to endorse a product, or maybe they have a product they're selling in the Instagram or TikTok stores as a part of what they do, that that overall space, that direct connection between a personality and an audience is going to be a hugely significant area of of the economy.

但这并不意味着每个自认为是艺术家或创作者的人都应该为他们的作品获得报酬，对吧？

But but that doesn't mean that every person who considers themselves an artist or a creator should be paid for their work, does it?

我是说，如果有人立志成为创作者，我不会否定他们。我们的调查数据显示，约半数人有某种法律组织形式。所以在我看来，这3000多人中至少有一半是相当认真的。认真到愿意花500美元办理一些繁琐的手续。可以说有一半人是这样做的。

I mean, if they if someone aspires to be, I don't I don't take that away from them. In our survey data we find that about half of people have some sort of legal formation. So to me that says half of these 3,000 plus people take it at least fairly seriously. Serious enough that they were willing to spend $500 to do some paperwork, some arduous paperwork about it. So say half of people are doing that.

而另一半人，可能其中一半会喜欢这种机会，另一半则不需要。他们更多是在教堂唱歌或写通讯稿，纯粹为了乐趣。纯粹为了乐趣。但对于年轻一代，对于那些想成为创作者的年轻人来说，或者考虑到纽约市艺术学校去年的申请率创历史新高。这个领域正注入更多活力。

And say the other half, yeah, maybe half would love that opportunity, maybe other half, they don't need it. It's more about singing at church or writing their newsletter, and it's just for fun. It's just for fun. But for the kids coming up, for the however many young people who who want to be creators, or the fact that New York City's art schools have the highest application rates ever this past year. There's more energy going into this place.

因此我认为人们抱有一种期望，希望它能带来比现实更丰厚的经济回报。但在未来，我认为这种情况可能真的会出现。

And so I think there is an expectation, a hope that it will bring probably greater economic benefits than is realistic. But in the future, I think that that might actually be the case.

但我想现在的不同之处在于，我们将其视为一种潜在职业，而过去我们称之为爱好。对吧？就像，这种变化是否意味着：我喜欢做这件事，而且说不定还能靠它赚钱。

But I guess what's different now is that we see it as a potential profession, whereas we used to call that hobbies. Right? Like, is that what's changing in terms of this idea that, like, I love doing this, and guess what? Maybe I can get paid for it too.

完全正确。互联网让我们能把副业变成收入来源，变成正式工作。但挑战在于，在这样的世界里成为艺术家，不像过去那么简单了。因为现在你要身兼数职：既是艺术家，又是营销人员、社群经理、订单处理员，所有这些角色都要承担，因为我们本质上是在围绕爱好经营小型企业。

Absolutely. You know, the Internet has made it so that we can turn our side hustles into forms of income. We can turn them into jobs. The challenge is that it's like the art the act of being an artist in a world like this is not as simple as it used to be, you know, because now you have many jobs. You're the artist, you're the marketer, you're the community manager, you're the order fulfiller, you know, you're all of these things because we're ultimately running these small businesses around our hobbies.

这就是为什么你会看到很多关于职业倦怠的统计数据，即使对非常成功的人来说也很常见，因为这确实是个苦差事。需要持续投入，而且缺乏同行协作关系。作为乐观主义者，我相信这些状况可以改变。我认为当前趋势不是一时风尚，它不会消失。

And this is where you see a lot of stats about burnout being something that's quite common, even for people who are very successful at this, because it is very much a grind. It's always on grind, and there's not a lot of peer relationship that's a part of it. And I'm the optimist who believes that these conditions can change. I believe that what's happening now is not a fad. It's not going away.

在我们看来，创意工作的价值被低估了。它比人们意识到的更有价值。如果创意工作者必须依赖其他角色来维持生计，那么我们永远都会处于弱势。因此我们真正需要建立自己的体系。

That creative work is undervalued in our eyes. It's more valuable than people realize. And that a world in which creative people are reliant on these other players to support ourselves, like, we're we're we're always we're always gonna be vulnerable. And so we really need a system of our own.

这就引出了扬西的重大构想。他正在创建一种新的法律架构，为艺术家提供保护和稳定性。他称之为艺术家公司或A型公司。

And that brings us to Yancey's big idea. He's working on creating a new legal structure to offer artists protection and stability. He calls it an artist corporation or a corp.

没错。艺术家公司或A型公司是一项新型法律实体的提案，需要通过州级立法来确立。其目标是打造一个代表创意产业的实体。

That's right. Yeah. And an artist corporation or an a corp is a proposal for a new legal type, a new corporate type that would be established through a new law, law established at the state level. And the goal of an artist corporation would be to make a entity that represents creative businesses.

目前这类企业大多选择注册为有限责任公司或S型公司。

Right now, most of those businesses opt to be either an LLC or s corp.

有限责任公司是最基础的法律架构，为项目提供法律保护并享有税收优惠。它没有增值空间，也不便于股权分配，但这是多数人使用的基本形式，操作也不算便利。而A型公司则是专为艺术家和创意人士设计的。

LLC is a the most basic legal structure. It's a legal shield over the project, gives you some tax benefits. It doesn't have upside, doesn't have easy ownership sharing exactly, but it's sort of the base level most people use. It's also not the friendliest to use. But what an a corp does, a corp is designed from the ground up for artists and creative people.

要获得A型公司资格，必须从事某种创意产出。项目必须由艺术家和创作者持有至少51%的控制权，而非外部投资者。这样就能预先获得资格。作为A型公司，既能从营利渠道融资，也能接受非营利资金。我们旨在创建一种认可创意价值的架构，让创意工作者能真正参与资本主义，像当今文化中其他经济主体那样拥有实体地位。

So to qualify for an A corp, you have to be making a creative output of some type. The project must be at least 51% owned and controlled by artists and creators, not outside investors. So you're prequalifying in. And as an a, you can raise money from both for profit sources as well as receive nonprofit sources of funds. But overall, we're trying to create a structure that validates creative work and that lets lets creative people participate in capitalism, have entities, be a real player the way that other economic players are in in our culture today.

我们认为A型公司能实现这个目标。它或许能为创意工作者开启一条通往繁荣的新道路。

And and we we think the a corp does that. The a corp just might be the door that opens up a new path to prosperity for creative people.

这是Yancey Strickler在TED舞台上的演讲。

Here's Yancey Strickler on the TED stage.

你可以把艺术家公司看作是为创意工作者量身定制的企业形态。想象一个乐队刚成立时就组建了艺术家公司——他们不再是五个独立个体，而是共同拥有一个能持有其知识产权、设备及业务的组织实体。当收入进账时，资金会根据预设比例自动分配给每位成员，他们甚至可以将部分收入存入资金池用于未来项目，或与其他艺术家公司联合以获得更好的医疗保险等福利。作为艺术家公司，他们既能获得商业收入，也能接受非营利性资金支持。

You could think of an a corp as like a company but built for how creative people work. And we can imagine a band starts, and right from the beginning, they have an a corp. So they're not just five individuals, they're people who collectively own an organization that has the power to own their intellectual property, their gear, their business. As they start to get paid, that money can automatically flow to each of the members according to preset amounts, and they could even set aside money to be saved for future projects in a treasury or pooling together with other artist corporations to get better health care or other benefits. As an artist corporation, they would also be able to receive both commercial revenue as well as nonprofit sources of funding.

当唱片公司或大型商业实体介入时，艺术家公司不必像传统模式那样直接出售知识产权，而是可以发行股份。这样对方就变成了对艺术家公司的投资方，既能提升公司估值，又能在项目成功时让所有成员受益。

And if a label or a bigger commercial entity came along, rather than just selling the rights to their intellectual property, which has been customary until now, As an artist corporation, they can issue shares. So instead, that entity would make an investment in the artist corporation, allowing it to be valued more highly and everyone to benefit if things went well.

音乐产业是个典型案例。过去流行乐队靠卖唱片就能赚大钱，但互联网时代到来后，流媒体平台让艺术家几乎难以维持收入。旧体系已然失效，而我们尚未找到新出路。

The music industry is a particularly interesting example, because it used to be the case that a popular band could make a lot of money from selling records. But then, of course, the Internet came along. And and now with streaming platforms, it is much harder for artists to make as much money, any money. So the old system no longer works, but we haven't figured out a new one.

我们确实处于行业转型的阵痛期。二十世纪那套掌控创作成果所有权的旧体系仍在运转，但其工具早已不合时宜。以音乐行业为例，传统签约模式下，乐队获得标准唱片合约后，厂牌往往掌控作品版权和母带所有权，艺人只能抽取版税分成。

We're we're definitely in the bar now. You know, we there is a a system that drove the twentieth century of creative production that is still in power because it holds the ownership rights to all of that work, but definitely its its its tools are less relevant today than than they've been in the past. You know, what's interesting is that, say, in music, music is a great case. If a band gets signed traditionally, you know, they they're given a standard record deal, which in all likelihood leaves the label owning the publishing and masters of their work. They get some cut of it, they get a royalty.

他们在经纪人建议下成立有限责任公司，实际却丧失作品所有权，扣除各种不明费用后才能获得分成，完全丧失自主权。当今文化资本体系中，艺人在大厂牌和制片厂面前只是生产资产的服务商——这形成了一种'资本利得归资方，风险却由创作者承担'的畸形生态。

They start some LLC with advice from their manager, and maybe that's set up by someone else. And they end up not owning their actual work, they're getting paid out after all these deductions that they don't understand, and they're a part of a system where they have no agency whatsoever. It's wild. For the capital sources of culture today, for labels and studios, these bigger entities, artists are essentially service providers who create assets that these larger entities acquire and capitalize on. We're in a weird spot in the industry where it's capitalism for me, but not for the, not for the artist.

那么如果乐队成立艺术家公司，当他们取得成功时，资金如何回流到艺人手中？

So how would it work if if the if a band created an a corp? How would the money get back to them should they have some success?

作为一家公司，他们可以预先声明：听着，我们拥有所创作音乐的知识产权。如果唱片公司想合作，很好，他们可以与我们协商投资以获取作品发行权。而现在，唱片公司面对的是那些知道这是唯一机会的独立艺人，他们可能会签下任何摆在面前的合约。

Well, so as as an a corp, they could preregister to say, okay. Listen. Our our a owns the IP of music that we create. And so if a label wants to work with us, great. Well they can negotiate with us either an investment for which they get the right to distribute this work, Or right now, labels are dealing with individual artists who know that this is their only chance to make it, and they're probably gonna sign anything in front of them.

但如果你观察这些实体、这些公司与同行公司的互动方式，他们会怎么做？他们会建立合资企业，创建双方共享收益的合作关系。因此，在一个乐队拥有公司的世界里，我认为他们的唱片合约应该像合资企业那样，由乐队和唱片公司共同拥有，双方都投入资金或劳力来实现目标，并共享收益。而不是只有大型企业实体独占收益，艺人只能获得剩余回报。

But if you look at the way these same entities, these corporations interact with peer corporations, what do they do? They make joint ventures. They make things where both parties share in the upside together. So in a world where the band has an a corp, I think their record would be like a joint venture co owned by the band and the label at which they are both putting in some money or labor to make it happen, in which they both own in the upside. It's not one where only the corporate entity, the larger corporate entity, owns the upside and the artist just gets basically excess returns.

相反，这是一种真正的伙伴关系和所有权关系。

But instead, it's one of like real partnership and and real ownership.

我觉得很有意思。我遇到过很多人，他们因为想把自己的作品推向世界——无论是艺术、写作还是其他——而兴奋地创办公司。但随后你不得不面对会计、报税、架构搭建这些不那么有趣的事情。你发现创意人士对这种新税务结构感到兴奋吗？

I mean, it's funny to me. I have talked to so many people who are so excited to start their own company because they, you know, wanna get their work out into the world, whether that's art or writing or whatever it is. And then you're like, yeah. But then you also have to deal with accounting and paying your taxes and setting up the structures and and all of those things that are not so fun. But are you finding that creative people are are getting excited about this new tax structure?

确实如此。这是与艺术家们携手推进的。我有出色的艺术家顾问团队，而且我们参考了大量来自艺术家的调研数据来指导工作。你好。

They they are. They are. And this is being done hand in hand with artists. You know, I have amazing artist advisers, and there's a lot of surveys and data from artists that are informing what we're doing. Hello.

我叫杰克逊·库珀，住在华盛顿州西雅图市。

My name is Jackson Cooper, and I live in Seattle, Washington.

我叫莉兹·阿尔瓦拉多，住在科罗拉多州柯林斯堡。

My name is Liz Alvarado, and I live in Fort Collins, Colorado.

我们联系了一些对Yancey的A计划感到兴奋的艺术家

We reached out to some of the artists who are excited about Yancey's plan for the a

摄影师。诗人。模特、表演者、歌手、词曲作者兼音乐人。

photographer. I'm a poet. I'm a model, performer, singer, songwriter, and a musician.

我做了很多拼贴画。

I do a lot of collage.

我是一名插画师兼作家。今年早些时候，我辞去了科技设计工作，经营自己的多学科创意工作室。可以说迄今为止最大的挑战之一，就是要不断对抗人们对设计的固有认知及其价值判断。最大的困难在于稳定性，

I am an illustrator and a writer. Earlier this year, I left my tech design job to run my own multidisciplinary creative practice. I will say that one of the biggest challenges so far has been kind of battling people's preconceptions of design and what design is worth. The biggest struggle is stability,

行政事务占据了大量时间，感觉就像在独自经营五家不同的公司。

and the admin takes up so much time that it feels like I'm running five different businesses by myself.

项目提案、资金筹措、版权管理。

Pitching, funding, managing rights.

我们经常不得不讨好那些掌握资金审批权的人。

We are often trying to please whoever is responsible for giving us funding.

你受制于一个只期待你不断生产、生产、再生产的体系。并非才华不足导致成功职业艺术家稀少，而是系统性问题。我们特别突出的一点是询问：你们最渴望的功能是什么？人们最想要的是低组建成本、更简单的维护、清晰的知识产权归属，以及轻松与同行分享收益的能力。

You are at the mercy of a system that is only expecting you to produce, produce, produce. It's not a lack of talent that there aren't more successful working artists. It's a systemic issue. One thing I really stood out, we asked, like, what are your most desired features? And the things people most want, low cost of formation, simpler maintenance, clear ownership of IP, and the ability to share profits with peers easily.

这意味着我能在项目中积累权益而非直接出售，让创意生活感觉更具可持续性。

That would mean I could build equity in my projects instead of just selling them off, and it would make a creative life feel much more sustainable

长远来看，我认为艺术家公司能帮助创作者将更多时间投入创作，而非与那些本就不为我们设计的体系抗争。这是杰克逊·库珀、伊丽莎白·阿尔瓦拉多、克里斯·洛伦岑、杰德·福克斯、克雷格·克劳蒂尔、阿丽娜·布雷思韦特、萨布丽娜·卢、米歇尔·董、麦迪·博瓦德和汉娜·塞莱斯特的观点。所以扬西的ACOR构想不仅是愿景，他正希望从科罗拉多州开始将其变为现实。

in the long run. I think that an a corp could help artists spend more of their time creating and less time struggling against the systems that were never really set up for us. That was Jackson Cooper, Elizabeth Alvarado, Chris Lorenzen, Jade Fox, Craig Cloutier, Alina Braithwaite, Sabrina Lu, Michelle Dong, Maddie Bovard, and Hannah Celeste. So Yancey's ACOR idea isn't just a vision. He's hoping to make it a reality starting in Colorado.

我们取得了实质性进展。我有一位赞助人——州参议员将推动这项法案。目前正在起草的法案令人振奋，我们真正尝试在这个层面运作，试图产生公共福祉级别的影响。如果成功，这将为今后每位艺术家奠定基础，我认为可能带来前所未有的巨大改变。

Where we have real progress. I have a a sponsor, a senator, state senator who will is sponsoring this bill. There is a a bill underway that's being written, and it's quite exciting to to really try to, operate at this level and to try to make an impact at the level of a public good. That if this is successful, it creates a foundation for every artist from here on out, I think to have a potentially dramatically different outcome than anyone before.

我们来谈谈那些将创作者视为可行职业选择的人。这会如何改变他们成为——我猜是——能支付账单并有医疗保险的成年人的方式？你如何设想这个过程？

Let's talk about those who, you know, see the see Creator as a viable career opportunity. How would this change the way they become, I guess, adults who can pay their bills and have health insurance? What how do you picture it?

是的。我认为目前假设你是TikTok视频创作者或歌曲发布者，无论做什么，很大程度上你都是独自发布内容一段时间，很可能没有任何法律架构。现在表现优秀的TikTok创作者会遇到投资者接洽，但很多交易目前都是360度全约。

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, right now, if you are let's say you're someone who makes videos on TikTok or you you post songs or whatever, you do you do something. My assumption is that you are just largely posting and going on your own for a while, and you probably don't have any sort of legal structure. Now what's happening now for TikTokers who do well is they have investors reaching out to them. What a lot of those deals are right now are three sixty deals.

这类合约基本上签走了你可能创作的所有作品权利，因此限制性极强。

These are basically deals that sign all rights of anything you might make, And so they are overly restrictive.

能举个例子吗？当你签下360度全约时，具体是什么样的情况？

Can you give me an example? What does that look like when you get a a three sixty deal?

合约上会写着，好吧，很棒。你知道的，某某人，你是这位化妆师，很棒。

So it would say it would say to you, okay. Great. You know, x person. You're this makeup artist. You know, great.

我们相信你的频道潜力，想帮你扩大规模。我们会投入10万美元，从此拥有你未来所有收入的25%。

We we believe in your channel. We wanna help you scale up. We're gonna put in, you know, a $100,000, and and now we own, you know, 25% of everything you make from here on.

明白了。嗯。嗯。

I see. Mhmm. Mhmm.

相比之下，A类公司的架构要求你明确说明哪些知识产权、哪些作品归属这个架构。这样那位化妆师可以更明确地说：嘿，这笔交易涉及我的播客和这些内容，不涉及那些。这种架构让我掌握主动权。

Versus saying in the way the A Corp is structured, you're asked to say what IP, what work lives within this structure. So in that world, that makeup artist could more easily say, hey. This is a this is a deal involving my podcast, involving these things. It doesn't involve these other things. This is the structure that puts me in control.

听起来可能像很多法律术语，但简单来说，A类公司架构能让创作者拥有内容所有权、获得投资，并正式将创意视为资本来估值。

It can sound like a lot of legalese, but put simply, the a corp business structure would let creators own their content, get investors, and officially value creativity as capital.

这样他们就不再只是个人品牌，而是可能拥有更大市场影响力和议价权的实体。

Rather than them being just an individual personality, they would be something that, might have more more heft, more market power to it.

稍后回来，我们将探讨人工智能时代如何影响内容创作。今天的节目，我们将与企业家Yancey Strickler一起讨论创作者经济。我是Manoush Zamorodi，您正在收听NPR的TED Radio Hour。稍后回来，这里是NPR的TED Radio Hour。

When we come back, how all this content creation is being affected by the age of AI. On the show today, the creator economy with entrepreneur, Yancey Strickler. I'm Manoush Zamorodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. Back in a minute. It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

我是Manoj Zamorodi。今天的节目中，我们将与企业家Yancey Strickler讨论创作者经济。早些时候，Yancey称自己为第二代创意人——一个在二十世纪美国成长的人，那里孕育了个人主义和创造力。但并非所有人都认同这一观点。

I'm Manoj Zamorodi. On the show today, we are talking about the creator economy with entrepreneur Yancey Strickler. So earlier, Yancey called himself a second generation creative. Someone who grew up in twentieth century America where individualism and creativity was nurtured. But not everyone agrees that that was the case.

我想谈谈教育，也想谈谈创造力。

So I want to talk about education, and I want to talk about creativity.

这位是教育顾问Ken Robinson爵士。2006年，他发表了一场后来成为TED史上观看量最高的演讲之一，题为《学校扼杀创造力吗？》

This is education adviser, sir Ken Robinson. In 2006, he gave what has ended up being one of the most watched TED talks ever. It's called, do schools kill creativity?

我的观点是，如今创造力在教育中与读写能力同等重要，我们应该给予它同等地位。

My contention is that creativity now is as important in education as literacy, and we should treat it with the same status.

他首先指出每个人在幼年时都具有创造力，并分享了一个过去二十年间被许多人反复讲述的故事。或许你也听过。这是关于美术课上一个小女孩的故事。

He started off by making the point that everyone is creative when they're very young and shared a story that I have heard repeated by many different people over the past twenty years. Maybe you have too. It's about a little girl in art class.

她六岁，正在后排画画。老师说这个小女孩平时几乎从不专心。但在这次绘画课上，她专注了。老师被吸引住了，走过去问她：‘你在画什么？’

She was six, and she was at the back drawing. And the teacher said, this little girl hardly ever paid attention. And in this drawing lesson, she did. And, the teacher was fascinated. She went over to her, and she said, what are you drawing?

小女孩说：'我在画上帝的画像。'老师回应：'可是没人知道上帝长什么样啊。'女孩说：'马上就会知道了。'

And the girl said, I'm drawing a picture of God. And the teacher said, but nobody knows what God looks like. And the girl said, they will in a minute.

对罗宾逊而言，创造力就是敢于冒险、沉浸于想象，去创造尚无模板的事物——这种能力他认为多数成年人最终都丧失了。

For Robinson, being creative was the willingness to take risks, to immerse yourself in your imagination, and make something that doesn't yet have a template, something he felt that most adults ended up losing.

孩子们敢于尝试。即使不懂，他们也会试试看。我说得对吗？他们不怕犯错。当然，我并非说犯错就等于有创造力。

Kids will take a chance. If they don't know, they'll have a go. Am I right? They're not frightened of being wrong. Now, I don't mean to say that being wrong is the same thing as being creative.

但我们可以确定：若不愿犯错，就永远无法产生原创。不愿犯错的结果是——等孩子们长大成人时，大多已丧失这种能力。开始害怕犯错。

What we do know is, if you're not prepared to be wrong, you will never come up with anything original. If you're not prepared to be wrong. And by the time they get to be adults, most kids have lost that capacity. Have become frightened of being wrong.

肯爵士于2020年逝世，就在ChatGPT等大型语言模型普及的前几年。如今年轻人或许会困惑：既然算法能更快（甚至更好）完成，为何还要冒险出丑或费时画画写诗？肯爵士演讲中的结语显得颇具预见性。

Sir Ken died in 2020, just a few years before chat GPT and other large language models became ubiquitous. And today, young people might wonder why risk looking silly or even taking the time to draw a picture or write a poem when the algorithm can do it so much faster, maybe better? Sir Ken's final thoughts in his talk sound prescient.

我们的使命是培养他们的完整人格，使其能直面未来。顺带一提，我们或许看不到这个未来，但他们可以。而我们的职责就是帮助他们创造——

Our task is to educate their whole being they can face this future. By the way, we may not see this future, but they will. And our job is to help them make

创造力正处在转折点。有人认为它正被AI碾压，将一切变为庸作；也有人觉得既然电脑能秒速谱曲设计标志，或许原创性已非创造力核心；还有一派相信AI将为创造力赋能。但艺术家兼企业家杨西·斯特里克兰认为，无论有无AI，人类都将进入史上最具创造力的时期。

something creativity is at an inflection point. There are those who believe it's being crushed by AI, which turns everything into slop. Others who feel that if a computer can compose a symphony or design a logo in seconds, then maybe originality no longer defines creativity. And still others who believe AI will give creativity a boost. But with or without AI, artist and entrepreneur Yancey Strickler believes we are entering humanity's most creative period yet.

我认为最终，我们将走向一个被视作创意世纪的时代，这将是人类以创造性思维模式来应对问题和机遇的时期——寻求文化共鸣的解决方案，追求美学上美丽或令人愉悦的答案，将大脑设计原则和创意原则应用到文化、社会、商业和经济中。创意思维在我们文化中以非常明确的方式成长，这种现象将更深入地融入整个社会。在技术和人工智能使许多制造和创造活动变成输入输出的世界里，我认为个性和与受众的关系将成为区分脱颖而出的关键。

I think ultimately, we're on a course of this being seen as the creative century, which is gonna be the period of time in which humans approached problems and approached opportunities from this creative mindset of seeking the culturally resonant solution, seeking the aesthetically beautiful or pleasing answer, bringing brain design principles and creative principles to apply in culture and in society and in business and economics and and the way that creative thinking has grown in our culture in a very explicit way is just something that is going to embed itself more deeply around all of society. In a world where technology and AI, all these things makes makes a lot of what a manufacturing and creation to be input output, I think it's personality and its relationship with audience that's gonna distinguish what stands out from what doesn't.

你是指那种幻灭感吗？很多年轻人对晚期资本主义感到失望，这种个人主义观念以及渴望在现实生活中聚集成所谓的'社群'。

Are you talking about, you know, the sort of disillusionment and a lot of young people with late capitalism, this idea idea of the individual and sort of this yearning to come together in real life to have a community, quote unquote, of people.

是的。我是说，从文化层面看，没有人真正相信社交媒体。我们都知道社交媒体本质上是广告。大家参与其中只是迫不得已。

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that culturally, no one believes in social media, I think, a real way. We all know all social media is an ad. Everyone's doing it because they have to.

作为创意工作者，当下确实弥漫着许多悲观情绪。对世界的悲观，对人工智能的悲观，对平台的悲观。而且我认为这些悲观都有道理。

And so as creative people, there's a lot of pessimism at the moment. There's pessimism about the world. There's pessimism about AI. There's a pessimism about platforms. And and I, you know, I I think that it's all true.

但我们创意人也面临着前所未有的机遇。现在从事创意工作的人比过去多得多，竞争也更激烈，这些都是我们必须面对的挑战。但我感觉文化生产的古典时代已经结束，而这条分界线可能就是人工智能。

But we also just have such amazing opportunity as creative people. There's a lot more of us than there used to be where, you know, it's more competitive. Those are things that we're having to deal with. But I feel like there is a a classical era of culture production that has closed. And I think probably that dividing line is AI.

大概存在某个分界线，我们可以确定地说，在古典文化生产时期，这些东西主要还是由人类的手和头脑创造的。

There's probably some dividing line where, like, classical culture production involves the period of time which we can say with certainty these things were largely made by human hands and human minds.

那就是古典的定义。

That's classical.

那是古典的。而新现代就是我们当下所处的时代。这个永恒的当下，这个令人困惑的事物混合体，起初我对此持批判态度，觉得有点像我父母那代人的想法。但通过与青少年TikTok用户交流，我理解到他们视这些为工具，只是随手可用的东西。人们强加二十世纪对真与美的观点，在这个时代很可能行不通或无法胜出。

That's classical. And then the neo modern will be what we're in now. This perpetual now, this this confusing confusing amalgamation of things that, you know, initially, I felt judgmental about being kind of boomer of me. But in talking to like the teenage TikTokers, I understand that they view these things as tools and that it's just something that's there for them. That people imposing their twentieth century viewpoint of what truth and beauty is is probably not going to make it or win in this moment of time.

所以我真心认为我们逃脱的条件已经具备，工具就在这里。我始终对互联网的能量保持信心。当我看到黑暗森林和群聊空间里发生的事情，看到人们用简单协调和极少资源就能实现的成就，这让我持续看好互联网赋能人群所能做到的事。

So I really think that the conditions of our escape are here, the tools are here. I just continue to have faith in the energy of the Internet. And if I look at what's happening in dark forests and group chats in these spaces, if I look at what people are able to achieve with light coordination and very little resources, it just makes me continue to be bullish on what Internet powered people can do.

我们能多谈谈AI吗？我想我从两个角度思考这个问题。一是知识产权，在AI时代这个概念会变得更难界定。另一个问题是，会有更多人转向创意职业或试图通过爱好赚钱吗？因为据说AI会接管部分工作，人们将有更多空闲时间。朝九晚五的常规工作会减少。

Can we talk more about AI? Is I guess, I think I think of it in two ways. One is that IP or intellectual property, that's gonna be more difficult to figure out what that even is in the era of AI. And then I guess the other question is, are more people going to be turning to creative professions or trying to make money off their hobbies simply because AI will allegedly take some of the that will have more time. There'll be less normal nine to five jobs.

是的。我认为因为有了更多时间而使用AI，这个现象确实存在。AI绝对是你的制作助手，它正在填补现代艺术家承担的所有工作缺口。肯定有人会尝试这么做。

Yeah. Well, I think the I think that using AI because we have more time, I think that's real. And, you know, I mean, definitely definitely AI is your production assistant. AI is trying to fill those gaps of all the jobs that you as an artist have taken on in this modern world. Certainly people are gonna try at that.

我某种程度上认为，在AI世界里，我们或许都能以更童真的方式体验创作。使用AI增强的创意工具会让我们觉得自己擅长任何事情——尽管可能没人在意。

I kind of think a world of AI is know, probably we'll all get to have a more childlike experience with creative things. You know, I think us interacting with, say, AI augmented creative tools is gonna let us feel like we're good at anything. It just might be that no one else cares.

我在想，我们能否设定合理预期？我有个担忧是...让我们暂时远离反乌托邦，先看看乌托邦设想：AI让一切变得极其便利。我终于能发布想做的专辑，虽然我不会作曲但AI可以。你是否担心有些人可能过于乐观，认为靠成为艺术家或创作者就能支付账单？

I guess I'm wondering, you know, can we set expectations? There's there's a a worry that I have that we picture this potentially let let's stay away from dystopia for a sec and go towards utopia, which is like AI makes things incredibly accessible. I can finally put out the album that I wanna put out, but because I can't compose music. But with AI, I can. Do you do you worry that there are people who are like who maybe it's wishful thinking that they can pay their bills by becoming an artist or a creator?

当人人都是创作者时，艺术到底是什么？这个问题变得更哲学了。每个人都觉得自己创作的东西很棒、应该获得报酬，这种想法确实很...童真。但我主要担心人们会认为从此不用工作了，燕西。

That when everyone is creator, a creator, you know, what even is art? What where I mean, this gets more philosophical, but, you know, this idea that everyone thinks what I'm making is amazing and someone should pay me for it. There's something very, well, childlike. Yes. But also, I'm just worried that people think they don't have to work anymore, Yancey.

你这想法也太老派了。我知道。我认为，虽然AI让创作变容易了，但观众未必会在乎。而且观众依然掌握着很大权力。我看到很多AI创意展示，对我来说就像是为非艺术家准备的艺术。

How boomer of you. I know. How I think just because AI makes it easier doesn't mean the audience is gonna care. And the the audience still has a lot of power. And, I mean, there's there's there's a lot of the AI creative demonstrations I see is like art for nonartists to me.

就像，我为什么要那么做？那才是最有意思的部分。你把乐趣都剥夺了。我不认为AI会取代人们主动选择消费的内容，除非某些东西偶然成为网络迷因或恰好击中时代脉搏。所以我并不太担心这个。

It's like, why why would I do that? Like, that's the fun part. You're taking away the fun part. And I don't think it's gonna replace what people choose to actively consume with the exception of, like, you know, things that become memes or just hits a lottery of the right moment in time. So I don't really worry about that.

但作为作家，我确实会有种守门人心态。比如看到AI写的书时，我的反应是希望那些作品明确标注是AI创作的，而我的不是，这让我有些介怀。也许我只能相信，最终观众会帮助决定这些作品的相对价值。但我也必须接受，比我年轻三十岁的人对此会有完全不同的看法。

But I do have as a writer, for example, I do feel gatekeeper y when I see AI books, for example. And I have a reaction of I want that to be branded that that's AI and that mine is not, and I feel something about that. And I think that maybe just what I have to believe is that, again, the the audience the audience will help determine the relative value of those things. But I also probably have to accept that someone thirty years younger than me is gonna have a very different very different you know, way to come at this.

是啊。毕竟我不是婴儿潮一代，我是X世代。我骨子里还保留着那种'不出卖灵魂'的朋克精神——如果你创作只是因为你喜欢创作呢？

Yeah. I mean, because as I'm not a boomer. I'm a gen xer. And part of me wants to maintain that sort of don't sell out. Don't be, you know, punk rock thing, which is what if you just make art because you like making it?

为什么我们非得把所有东西都商品化？比如人们通过出售订阅来让他人窥视自己生活。没错，我知道这么说显得很老派，我觉得这有点恶心。但这可能只是我们这代人的想法。

Why do we have to commoditize everything? Like, the idea of people, you know, selling subscriptions so that you can be voyeurs on their life. Yes. I know I sound old by saying, like, I think that's kinda gross. But maybe that is just me being of my generation.

确实。我能理解双方立场。我也是X世代。听到人们的担忧时，老实说那些忧虑我也有。比如我不知道让更多资本涌入我们这个领域是不是好事。

Yeah. I mean, I I I see both I see both sides for sure. I I I am I am also Gen X and knows. I mean, I hear people. And honestly, the the this the the worries people share are are worries I share of, like, you know, I don't know if we want more money coming into our space.

我不知道会造成什么影响。这些事让我感到焦虑。但对我来说更大的挑战是，现在得到的支持远远不够。我认为人们没有充分获取他们创造的价值，实际上我们的劳动正被以不符合创造价值的方式剥削——这是可以改变的。

I don't know what it's gonna do. I feel anxious about those things. But to me, an even bigger challenge is the fact that there is not enough support coming in now And that I believe that people aren't capturing the value of what they do. And actually, our work is being exploited in a way that doesn't actually reflect the value we create. And that that is something that's changeable.

我认为改变这一点将实质性地改变未来创意人群的生活状况。

And I think changing that will materially change the conditions in the lives of future generations of creative people.

那你呢？我觉得你还不到50岁吧？但你成年后的大部分时间都在尝试将金钱与创造力结合。你觉得你会继续这样做吗？

And what about for you? I I don't think you're even 50 yet. Right? But you've ended up spending a lot of your adult life experimenting with ways to align money with creativity. Do you think you'll keep doing that?

是的，我今年46岁。我一生都在创意领域工作。我父亲是位未能实现音乐梦想的乡村音乐人，只能靠打零工维生。

Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm 46 years old. I I've been working in the creative fields my whole life. I mean, I I grew up the son of a musician, and my dad was a country musician who didn't make it, you know, the the way he dreamed. And instead, he had day jobs.

我成长过程中，他是个周末兼职演出的水床推销员。对我而言，创意生活本就该是多种收入来源的结合，且源于热爱——这观念根深蒂固。我的生活也是如此。现在越来越多人选择这种生活方式，其中蕴含的机遇不可小觑。48%的美国人有创意实践，有人谋生有人当爱好——认真对待这件事确实大有裨益。在我看来，所有叙事都是事后总结。

When I was growing up, he was a traveling waterbed salesman who played music on the weekends. And to me, the idea that a creative life is a mix of income sources and you do it out of love, it's it was always so apparent to me, and that's also how my life has been lived. And what I can see is that there's more of us, there's more and more of us living our lives that way, and actually the opportunity I think is significant. And that experience of 48% of Americans who have a creative practice, who some are trying to make money on it, some are it's a hobby, you know, that there's a real benefit to taking that seriously. To me, all narratives are retrospective.

在人生前行时，我其实并不清楚方向。只是追随兴趣，做内心召唤的事，做情不自禁要做的事。直到现在——当过音乐记者、做过Kickstarter、创办Creative Independent和Metallabel、经营艺术家公司，现在又经营一家心仪的小出版社——我的人生始终在发掘创意者的潜力。

Moving forward through life, I haven't known what I'm doing. I'm just doing what is interesting, what I feel called to do, what I can't help but to do. And and only now after being a music journalist, doing Kickstarter, starting Creative Independent, doing Metallabel, doing artist corporations. I've also run a small press right now that I love doing. You know, my my my life is about lifting up the potential of creative people.

我毕生都致力于此。从童年起这就是我的宿命。虽然当初并不知晓，但回首向来如此。

My entire life is dedicated to that. And and from childhood, that has been my life. You know? I didn't know. I didn't know that's what it would always be, but it's what it's always been.

我对这份事业怀有难以置信的热忱与喜悦。能通过谈话支持艺术家推出作品，于我便是无上快乐；发现心爱之物，便是极致幸福。这就是我的本质，永不改变。我怀着巨大责任感，并深爱着支持同路人的每个瞬间。

And and I just have, like, a unbelievable hunger for that and such joy. And for me to be able to, like, talk to support an artist and putting out a work, few things better. For me to discover something that I love, I mean, that's as good as it gets. Like, this is this is just who I am and who I will always be. And I take that with an extreme amount of responsibility and love being able to support my people.

刚才介绍的是杨西·斯特里克尔。他是一位企业家、音乐家、作家，也是Kickstarter的联合创始人。您可以在ted.com观看他的完整演讲。非常感谢您收听我们关于创作者经济系列的第一部分。下周，语言学家和病毒式内容创作者亚当·亚历克将带我们深入社交媒体趋势，解析它们如何改变文化以及我们的交流方式。

That was Yancey Strickler. He's an entrepreneur, musician, writer, and the cofounder of Kickstarter. You can see his full talk at ted.com. Thank you so much for listening to part one of our two part series on the creator economy. Next week, linguist and viral content creator Adam Alexic takes us inside social media trends and explains how they're changing culture and how we talk to each other.

我不想总是表现得'热切'。有些场合需要'热切'，但有些时候则需要保持'淡漠'。

I don't wanna be shalant all the time. There's a time and a place to be shalant, and then there's a time to be nonchalant.

是啊。但'热切'根本不是个正式词汇吧？什么情况？

Yeah. But shalant is not its own word. What?

但它现在是了。这是个通过社交媒体流行起来的俚语词。

But it is. It is now. It's a slang word that was popularized through, like, social media.

什么意思？

Meaning?

意思就是'淡漠'的反义词。表示你对某事表现得很外露，很...对，就是很兴奋。比如我对语言就很'热切'，你懂的。

Meaning the opposite of nonchalant. Meaning, you are overt about something. You are yeah. You are excited about something. I'm shalant about language, you know.

亚当还会教我们内容如何能够病毒式传播。

And Adam even teaches us what it takes to go viral.

等等，所以我们是要制作一个病毒视频对吧

Wait. So we're trying to make a viral video right

现在。

now.

没错。我们要一起制作一个病毒视频，会很有趣的，你肯定不想错过。如果你喜欢本期节目或有任何反馈，欢迎发邮件给我们。

Yes. We're gonna make a viral video, you and me. It's a fun one. You don't wanna miss it. If you like this episode and enjoyed it or you have some feedback, do email us.

我们的邮箱是TedRadioHour@NPR.org。我们会阅读每封来信，非常期待听到你们的声音。比如我们最近收到一位听众关于《选择的艺术》这期节目的暖心语音留言，丹妮尔·伊芙分享了她对时间管理的思考。

We are at TedRadioHour@NPR.org. We read every message, and we love hearing from you. For example, we got this lovely voice message from a listener about our recent episode, The Art of Choosing What to Do. Danielle Eve sent us her thoughts about being intentional with how she spends her time.

我从未给电台主持人发过语音留言，但这场关于时间、生活方式和生命意义的对话实在太重要了。这期播客我大概转发了十几次，真的非常感谢你们制作这期节目，它整合了许多我未曾想到的资源，让我非常兴奋地想要分享给大家。

I've never actually sent a a voice comment to radio hosts, but I feel like this conversation about time and how we are spending our time and finding the meaningfulness of life is so important. And I think I shared the episode 10 or 12 times in the you know, during the the podcast. And so I just wanted to say thanks for making it. It was really great, and I was really excited to share it because it felt like it combined a whole bunch of resources that I hadn't thought of yet. So thank you so much.

本期节目由哈莎·纳哈塔和凯蒂·蒙特莱昂制作，由萨纳斯·梅什坎普尔和我共同剪辑。NPR制作团队还包括詹姆斯·德拉胡西、瑞秋·福克纳·怀特、马修·克卢捷、菲奥娜·格林和菲比·莱特。执行制片人是艾琳·野口，音响工程师是吉米·基利，主题音乐由拉姆汀·阿拉布鲁伊创作。

This episode was produced by Harsha Nahata and Katie Monteleone and edited by Sanas Meshkampur and me. Our production staff at NPR also includes James Della Hussi, Rachel Faulkner White, Matthew Cloutier, Fiona Guerin, and Phoebe Lett. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Kealy. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arabluy.

TED的合作方包括克里斯·安德森、罗克珊·海拉什和丹妮拉·贝拉雷佐。我是马诺吉·佐莫罗迪，您正在收听的是NPR出品的TED广播时间。

Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Roxanne Hylash, and Daniella Bellarezzo. I'm Manoj Zomorodi, and you have been listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.