三位塑造美国历史的母亲

这是TED电台节目。

This is the TED Radio Hour.

每周带来突破性的TED演讲。

Each week, groundbreaking TED Talks.

我们现在的工作是大胆梦想。

Our job now is to dream big.

在TED大会上发表。

Delivered at TED conferences.

实现我们想要看到的未来。

To bring about the future we want to see.

遍布全球。

Around the world.

理解我们是谁。

To understand who we are.

从这些演讲中，我们为您带来令人惊喜的演讲者和思想。

From those talks, we bring you speakers and ideas that will surprise you.

你根本不知道会发现什么。

You just don't know what you're gonna find.

挑战你。

Challenge you.

我们真的必须

We truly have to

问问自己，这为什么值得注意？

ask ourselves, like, why is it noteworthy?

甚至改变你。

And even change you.

我真的感觉自己变成了另一个人。

I literally feel like I'm a different person.

是的。

Yes.

你也有这种感觉吗？

Do you feel that way?

值得传播的想法。

Ideas worth spreading.

来自TED和NPR，我是马努什·扎莫罗迪。

From Ted and NPR, I'm Manoush Zamorodi.

今天的节目中，我将与社会学家兼作家安娜·马拉伊卡·塔布斯进行我最喜爱的一次对话。

On the show today, one of my favorite conversations with sociologist and author Anna Malaika Tubbs.

去年，她出版了畅销书《被抹去》，探讨了为什么女性对美国历史的贡献被忽视了。

Last year, she released her bestseller, Erased, where she examines why women's contributions to American history have been erased.

我曾在2022年采访过她，当时她刚出版了第一本书，名为《三位母亲》。

I interviewed her back in 2022 about her first book, which is called the three mothers.

在我看来，黑人母亲唯一能做的，就是从一开始就向孩子灌输一种‘存在感’。

It seems to me that the only thing that the mother can do, the Negro mother, is try from the beginning to instill in the child a sense of somebody ness.

你可能会认出这是马丁·路德·金的声音。

You may recognize this as the voice of Martin Luther King Junior.

这正是我母亲努力去做的事。

This was what my mother tried to do.

她非常明确地表示，尽管存在这些不利条件，你和其他任何人一样优秀，你绝不能觉得自己不如别人。

She made it very clear that in spite of these conditions you are as good as anybody else and you must not feel that you are not.

在这段1961年的采访片段中，他谈到了他生命中最具影响力的人物之一——他的母亲阿尔伯塔·金。

In this clip from a 1961 interview he's talking about one of the most influential people in his life, his mother, Alberta King.

但我们大多数人对她知之甚少，甚至从未听说过她。

But most of us know little about her or have even heard of her.

是的。

Yeah.

这让我想起马丁·路德·金其实在很多不同场合

It reminds me of the many different times actually that MLK Jr.

都曾归功于他的母亲，但学者和记者们常常忽略这一点，而他真心相信母亲是他理解奴隶制历史、内战历史、以及那些告诉黑人他们不配拥有人性的历史的主要灵感来源之一。

Gave credit to his mother, but that scholars and journalists often ignored and where he really believed that she was one of his primary inspirations and understanding, you know, the history of slavery, the history of, the civil war, the history of people telling black people that they were not worthy of their humanity.

安娜花费多年时间研究了这三位母亲：阿尔伯塔·金、路易丝·利特尔和伯蒂斯·鲍德温。

Anna spent years researching these three mothers, Alberta King, Louise Little, and Burtess Baldwin.

这些女性塑造了美国历史，但她们的故事却鲜为人知。

Women who shaped American history, yet whose stories are seldom told.

每年一月十五日左右，全世界都会恰如其分地庆祝伟大的马丁·路德·金的诞辰。

Every year around January 15, the world rightfully celebrates the birth of the great Martin Luther King Junior.

以下是阿诺米卡·塔布斯在TED舞台上的发言。

Here's Anomalika Tubbs on the TED stage.

然而，几乎没有人停下来思考1929年那天在场的还有谁。

Yet virtually no one has stopped to consider who else was in that room that day in 1929.

仿佛某种意义上，马丁·路德·金是自己降生的。

As if somehow, MLK Jr.

他出生了。

Birthed himself.

我参观了他出生的地方——亚特兰大一座迷人而古朴的两层小屋。

I toured the location where he was born, a charming, quaint, two story home in Atlanta.

尽管能到那里参观是一种荣幸，但我离开时却对导游的讲解脚本感到沮丧。

And while it was an honor to even be there, I left feeling frustrated by the tour guide's script.

当然，马丁·路德·金。

Of course, MLK Jr.

大多数故事都以他为中心，接着是关于他父亲——令人鼓舞的马丁·路德·金牧师的讲述。

Was the center of most of the tales, and then came stories about his father, the inspiring Reverend Martin Luther King senior.

但让我感到沮丧的是，人们完全忽视了他的母亲——阿尔伯塔·克里斯汀·威廉姆斯·金，尽管这栋房子最初是她的童年居所，后来她也在二楼的房间里生下了她的孩子们。

But what frustrated me was the lack of attention being paid to his mother, Alberta Christine Williams King, even though this was actually her childhood home first and the home where she later birthed her children in a room on the 2nd Floor.

事实上，她被抹去了，尽管她对儿子的成长影响深远，我们却因为她的形象不符合那种更父权化的英雄和领袖观念，而将她排除在我们的共同认知之外。

The thing is that she's been erased, And despite the fact that she was so clearly influential in her son's journey, we have kept her from our shared knowledge and understanding because she doesn't fit this more patriarchal notion of who the heroes and

我们的故事中的领导者。

the leaders of our stories are.

因此，她被掩盖了。

And therefore, she's been swept under the rug.

但现在是时候纠正这一点了。

But it's time that we correct that.

是时候给予她应得的尊重，庆祝她不仅对她的儿子，

It's time that we give her her due, and we celebrate her influence not only on her son,

而且对我们整个世界的影响。

but on our entire world.

所以，安娜，我们这一小时将致力于讲述这三位女性此前鲜为人知的故事。

So, Anna, we're dedicating this hour to hearing the previously untold stories of these three women.

但首先，我必须问一下：你为什么选择花这么多时间研究马丁·路德·金、马尔科姆·X和詹姆斯·鲍德温的母亲们？

But first, I have to ask, why did you choose to spend so much time researching the mothers of MLK Jr, Malcolm X, and James Baldwin?

因为我想，你本可以选很多其他母亲作为研究对象。

Because I'm guessing there are many other mothers you could have chosen to focus on.

是的。

Yeah.

这其实是一个不断缩小范围的过程。

It was really a narrowing down process.

我最初的想法非常宏大。

I started with a really large idea.

我受到玛戈特·李·谢蒂利《隐藏人物》的启发。

I was inspired by Margot Lee Shetterly's hidden figures.

我非常喜欢、非常喜欢她的作品，但我也因这部作品而感到愤怒，因为这是我第一次听到她所研究的这些女性的名字。

I love, love, loved her work, but I was really angered by the work because it was the first time I was hearing these women's names that she'd researched.

于是我决定，我要成为那个发现其他被埋没的杰出人物的人，那些被故意从历史中抹去的人。

And so I said, I'm gonna be somebody who finds other hidden figures, other people who have intentionally been erased from our history.

我知道我将会谈论黑人女性。

And I knew I was gonna talk about black women.

然后我想起，我的母亲总是跟我强调母亲在每个社会中的重要性。

And then I thought about the fact that my mother always spoke to me about the importance of mothers in every society.

她是一名律师。

She was a lawyer.

她在美国以及海外都为妇女权益奔走呼吁。

She advocated for women's rights, both in The US as well as abroad.

于是我想到，好吧，我要谈论母亲，因为她们被忽视了。

And so I thought, okay, I'm gonna talk about mothers because they're being overlooked.

她们没有得到应得的赞誉。

They're not being celebrated in the way that they deserve to be.

我想到民权运动，因为我们在政策讨论中经常回到它，但我们也总是从一个相当男性化的视角来谈论它。

I thought about the civil rights movement because we so often come back to it in our policy discussions, but we also speak about it from a pretty male perspective.

在民权运动中，我们很难说出除男性领袖之外的其他人。

It's a lot harder for us to name, anyone else other than male leaders in the civil rights movement.

于是我说，我要利用这种父权结构。

And so I said, I'm gonna play on that patriarchy.

我知道，如果能多加入一些这些知名名字，更多人就会记住这三位黑人女性的故事。

I knew strategically if it had some more of these famous names, more people would walk away knowing three black women's stories.

这听起来是个美好的目标。

Well, that sounds like a lovely goal.

那我们从阿尔伯塔·金开始，来了解这些女性吧。

So let's get to know these women starting with Alberta King.

告诉我们关于她的事，她来自哪里，她的早年生活是怎样的。

Tell us about her, where she came from, and what her early life was like.

阿尔伯塔·金，原名阿尔伯塔·威廉斯，1903年出生于佐治亚州亚特兰大，她的父母是伊本尼泽浸信会的领袖。

Alberta King, well, Alberta Williams originally was born in Atlanta, Georgia in nineteen o three, and she was born to the leaders of Ebenezer Baptist Church.

她的父母建立了这家教会。

So her parents established this church.

他们相信基督教信仰应始终与社会正义紧密结合。

And they believe that Christian faith should always be intertwined with social justice.

因此，她从小就被灌输这样的信念。

And so this is what she's raised to believe.

她从小就参加游行示威。

She participates in marches at an early age.

她参与抵制活动。

She participates in boycotts.

她和她的父母是NAACP最早的成员之一。

Her and her parents are some of the very, very first members of the NAACP.

她相信自己可以利用所受的教育。

And she believes that she can use her education.

她享有受教育的特权，以此推动整个社区的自由事业。

She has this privilege of an education to advance freedom causes forward for her entire community.

因此，她获得了学士学位和教师资格证，并梦想成为亚特兰大公立学校系统的一名教育工作者。

So she gains a bachelor's degree and a teaching certificate, and she has a dream of becoming an educator in the Atlanta public school system.

所以她受过良好的教育。

So she's well educated.

她非常清楚抗议在争取黑人权利中的作用，但她最终并没有走上职业道路。

She's she is well aware of the role protest plays in hopefully getting rights for black people, but she doesn't end up having a career.

不。

No.

是的。

Yeah.

当时有一项法律。

At the time, there was a law.

这项法律被称为‘婚姻禁令’，规定如果女性选择结婚并组建家庭，就不能在外工作。

It was called the marriage bar that stated that if women decided to get married and in turn start a family, that they could not work outside of their home.

因此，当阿尔贝塔爱上了一位名叫迈克尔·金的男子——他后来改名为马丁·路德·金——

And so when Albertall falls in love with a man by the name of Michael King, originally who later will change his name to to Martin Luther King.

她不得不做出决定：是组建家庭、放弃事业，还是继续追求她所接受的教育所指引的道路。

She really has to make the decision whether or not she's going to start a family and walk away from her career or continue to pursue the journey that she's been educated for.

她决定组建家庭。

And she she decides to have a family.

正如我们所知，她决定组建家庭。

As we know, she decides to have a family.

她决定结婚并生育孩子。

She decides to get married and have children.

但这并不是她教学生涯的终点。

But this isn't really the end of her teaching.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我用来形容她的词是平衡。

The word that I would use to describe her is balance.

她既鼓励孩子，又非常疼爱他们。

She's both encouraging of them and very loving of her children.

当孩子们感到害怕或困惑时，他们会来找她，她会陪着他们，紧紧抱住他们，说：你知道，你值得被爱。

When they are scared or confused, they come to her and she sits with them and holds them tightly and says, you know, you are are worthy of love.

你值得拥有尊严。

You're worthy of dignity.

但她也非常严厉。

But she's also very stern.

他们家里有非常严格的规矩。

They had very serious rules in their household.

他们每天都会遵循固定的日程和作息。

They had a schedule and a routine that they followed every single day.

他们去上学。

They went to school.

他们回来。

They came back.

他们坐在餐桌旁。

They sat down at the table.

他们读圣经。

They read the bible.

他们做了作业。

They did their homework.

他们一起吃晚饭。

They ate dinner together.

所以她也明确表示，他们会遵守她的规则，同时在其中平衡爱与温暖。

So she was also clear that they would follow her rules while balancing that with that love and that warmth.

她从未说过你们必须出去成为著名的领袖。

And never is she saying you need to go out and become a famous leader.

相反，她告诉他们，作为基督徒，我们相信在这个世界上公平与正义是可能的，这就是上帝的愿景。

But instead she's telling them that we as Christians believe equity and justice are possible on this earth and that this is what God's vision is.

因此，她告诉他们如何做到这一点，如何实现正义与平等。

And so she's telling them how you do that, that you can achieve justice and equality.

你们的责任就是在这里努力去实现它。

And your role is to try to do that here.

我们过去曾听人说，马丁·路德·金的演讲能力来自他的父亲。

We've heard people in the past say that Martin Luther King Junior got his oratory skills from his dad.

但你觉得他从妈妈那里学到了什么？

But what do you think he got from his mom?

有什么是我还不知道的吗？

Is there something I don't know.

当你看他的视频，看到他发表演讲时，你会想到阿尔伯塔的什么？

What do you when you when you watch him in videos, when you see him giving speeches, what does it make you think about Alberta?

关于阿尔伯塔和关于马丁·路德·金的一切，都让我想到彼此。

Everything about Alberta and everything about MLK make me think of the other.

我得说，是的，当我做研究时，我根本没打算刻意做这些直接对比，比如阿尔伯塔做了这个，马丁·路德·金也做了那个，但结果却不可避免地出现了。

And I have to say, yeah, when I was doing the research, I wasn't even trying to make these direct comparisons of, you know, because Alberto did this, MLK did this, but then it became unavoidable.

很明显，他就是她的儿子。

It was so clear that this was her son.

她相信游行。

She believed in marches.

她相信抵制。

She believed in boycotts.

我们所颂扬的他的一切，她都是他最亲近的知己。

She everything we celebrate him for, she was his closest confidant.

他几乎每天都会给她打电话，即使不在她身边时也要向她报平安。

He called her almost every day to check-in with her when he wasn't with her.

当他和她在一起时，他会陪在她身边，试图和她谈论世界上发生的事、他所在社区的动态，以及他经历种族歧视的时刻。

When he was with her, he would sit with her and try to talk about what was happening in the world and in his direct community and moments where he's experiencing racism.

他会去找阿尔伯塔，因为他觉得她比任何人都更理解他。

He would go to Alberta because he felt like she understood him better than anyone else.

当然，作为一位学者，他正是在阿尔伯塔之后才走上这条路的。

Of course, this academic that he is, this is directly after Alberta.

这并不是说他的父亲没有激励过他，但几乎就像阿尔伯塔和马丁·路德·金是同一个人一样——如果你阅读过他们的生平、学位、热情和成长背景的话。

And it's not to say that his father didn't also inspire him, but it is almost as if they are the same person, Alberta and MLK, if you read their descriptions and their degrees and their passions and their upbringing.

不过你确实提到一点，随着他的儿子越来越出名，她真的非常为他担忧。

One thing you do say though is that as her son got more and more famous, she really worried about him.

她非常担心他的安全。

She worried about his safety a lot.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

她确实是。

She was.

她一直很担心，甚至有一次因为过度忧虑而需要卧床休息。

She was always concerned even to a point where she was on bed rest at one point because she was so worried.

这给她的身体带来了很大的负担。

It was taking a physical toll on her.

这提醒我们，小马丁·路德·金。

And this is a reminder to us that MLK Jr.

是一个普通人，一个有血有肉的人。

Was a person, a human being.

这是她的儿子。

This was her son.

你知道，他并不是一个神。

You know, he wasn't this deity.

他不仅仅是我们历史中的一个角色。

He wasn't just a character in our history.

他是一个普通人，冒着生命危险去实现他的理想，试图用它来帮助我们所有人，但这绝非易事。

He was a human being and he was risking his life for the work that he was trying to bring to life and trying to use to help all of us, but this wasn't something that was easily done.

而且

And

当你从他母亲的视角来看，你才能真正理解他的为人和他的脆弱。

when you see it from the perspective of his mother, you can really fully appreciate his humanity and his own fragility.

自由与正义。

Freedom and justice.

我有一个梦想。

I have a dream.

我希望我的四个孩子有一天能生活在一个国度里，在那里他们不会因为肤色而被评判，而是根据他们的品格来衡量。

Well That my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

我今天依然怀有梦想。

I have a dream today.

1963年8月28日，阿尔伯塔和她的家人在电视上观看了马丁·路德·金发表《我有一个梦想》的演讲。

On 08/28/1963, Alberta and her family watched Martin Luther King Junior deliver the I have a dream speech on television.

这是安娜正在朗读她书中的段落

And here's Anna reading a passage from her

书。

book.

灵性。

Spiritual.

终于自由了。

Free at last.

终于自由了。

Free at last.

感谢全能的上帝。

At Thank God almighty.

我们终于自由了。

We are free at last.

这些就是阿尔伯塔用来抚养儿子的教诲。

These were the teachings with which Alberta had raised her son.

马丁的家人静坐无言，自豪感在他们心中涌动，而阿尔伯塔的眼中也噙满了泪水。

Martin's family sat in silence as pride welled in their hearts and tears welled in Alberta's eyes.

他们知道，这场演讲将成为历史上最有力的演讲之一。

They knew this speech would go down as one of the most powerful in history.

他们默默的震惊突然被电话声打断。

Their quiet astonishment was suddenly interrupted by the phone.

一个又一个电话从全国各地的亲人那里打来，分享着他们的兴奋与喜悦。

Call after call came through from loved ones all around the country sharing their excitement and joy.

这些时刻平衡了阿尔伯塔对儿子生命的深深恐惧，带来了幸福与希望。

These were the moments that balanced Alberto's deep fear for her son's life with happiness and hope.

他显然正在践行上帝赋予他的使命，而她绝不会阻碍这一切。

He was so clearly doing what God called him to do, and she would never stand in the way of that.

就在这一刻，阿尔伯塔·金最害怕的事情成真了，另一场我们很少听闻的暗杀事件发生了。

In a moment, the day Alberta King's worst fear came true, and another assassination we don't hear much about.

今天节目中，我们邀请到《三母》一书的作者安娜·马拉伊卡·塔布斯，探讨马丁·路德·金、马尔科姆·X和詹姆斯·鲍德温的母亲们如何塑造了一个国家。

On the show today, Anomalika Tubbs, author of the three mothers, how the mothers of Martin Luther King Junior, Malcolm x, and James Baldwin shaped a nation.

我是马努什·佐莫罗迪，您正在收听来自NPR的TED播客。

I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

您正在收听来自NPR的TED播客。

It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

我是马努什·佐莫罗迪。

I'm Manoush Zamorodi.

今天我们的嘉宾是《三母：马丁·路德·金、马尔科姆·X和詹姆斯·鲍德温的母亲如何塑造了一个国家》一书的作者。

My guest today is the author of The Three Mothers, How the Mothers of Martin Luther King Junior, Malcolm X, and James Baldwin Shaped a Nation.

安娜·马拉伊卡·塔布斯，非常感谢您来到我们节目。

Anna Malika Tubbs, thank you so much for being with us.

谢谢您邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

所以，安娜，在广告之前，我们谈到了阿尔伯塔·金，马丁·路德·金 Jr. 的母亲，以及她如何通过抚养儿子的方式部分地塑造了我们的历史。

So Anna, before the break, we were talking about Alberta King, the mother of Martin Luther King Junior, and how she shaped our history in part by how she raised her son.

但随着六十年代民权运动的兴起，他的处境变得越来越危险，她开始非常担心他的安全。

But as the civil rights movement gained steam in the sixties, the situation got more and more dangerous for him, and she became really worried about his safety.

当然，她的噩梦在1968年真的发生了。

And of course, her worst nightmare did come true in 1968.

是的。

Yeah.

她多年来所有的担忧，她对儿子生命的恐惧，最终都变成了现实。

All of this worry that she's had for years, and these fears that she has for her son's life come true.

你知道，那是她每天最害怕听到的噩耗。

You know, the the worst news that she each day is worried she's gonna hear.

各位，这是一个令人悲伤的消息。

Sad news for all of you.

我认为

And I think

她终于通过收音机得知，这位民权偶像、这位和平的王子被杀害了。

She finally does hear over the radio that this our civil rights icon, this kind of prince of peace has been killed.

马丁·路德·金今晚遭枪击身亡。

Martin Luther King was shot and was killed tonight.

根据她丈夫在自传中的描述，他说她当时整个人都崩塌了。

And in the moment from her husband's description in his autobiography, he says that she was Who lived.

她几乎沉默着，泪水不停地从脸上流下。

Almost quiet and tears were just streaming down her face.

我祈祷他的家人能从他为这片他深爱的土地所做的一切中找到慰藉。

I pray that his family can find comfort in the memory of all he tried to do for the land he loves so well.

我恳请每一位

I ask every

我只能想象她脑海中正在翻腾的思绪，但我们也不能忘记，她知道有人正在注视着她。

I can only imagine the the thoughts that are going through her mind, but we also have to remember she's aware that people are watching her.

她是教会的领袖。

She's a leader in this church.

从她还是个小女孩时就是了。

She has been since she was a little girl.

她深知自己必须考虑到其他人正在经历的一切，以及自己该如何为他们现身。

And she knows and is fully aware that she has to also think about what everybody else is going through and how she needs to show up for them.

阿尔伯塔·金一直活到1974年，我不知道她是如何去世的，安娜。

Alberta King lived until 1974, and I did not know how she died, Anna.

我问过很多人，你知道吗？

And I've asked a lot of other people, did you know?

他们说他们从未听过这个故事。

And they said they'd never heard this story.

你介意跟我们分享一下吗？

Do you mind sharing it with us?

好的。

Yeah.

这是一个极其震惊的时刻，完全出乎意料。

It's an extremely shocking moment, completely unexpected.

当然，她像往常每个星期天一样在教堂弹奏管风琴。

Of course, she's playing the organ at church as she always does every Sunday.

这是一个充满喜悦的日子，但一个男人在阿尔贝托演奏时突然站起来，说：‘今天由我来接管。’

And it's a joyous day, but a man stands up in the middle of Alberto playing and he says, I'm taking over today.

他开始开枪。

He starts shooting.

他后来告诉我们，也对媒体和新闻记者说，他原本想杀死MLK Sr.

He later tells us, and kinda tells the media, the news reporters, that he wanted to kill MLK Sr.

这原本是他的目标。

This was his original goal.

但那天，他决定既然阿尔贝托离他更近，就先射杀她。

But on that day, he decided that since Alberto was closer to him, he was gonna shoot her first.

阿尔贝托在医院去世了。

And Alberto dies at the hospital.

她在亚特兰大那座著名教堂演奏管风琴时，背部中弹。

She's shot in the back while playing the organ in that very famous church in Atlanta.

是的。

Yeah.

那是她成长的教堂，是她父母建立的教堂，是她丈夫成为牧师的教堂，也是她的两个儿子都担任过牧师的教堂。

The church that she grew up in, the church that her parents established, the church that her husband becomes pastor of, that her son does, both of her sons do.

这里也是她去世的地方。

This is also the place where she dies.

我的意思是，真是一个极其悲惨的结局。

I mean, incredibly tragic ending.

但你笔下的阿尔伯塔，她的生活却透着一种平静的喜悦。

And yet, the way you write about Alberta, there's certainly a calm joy to her life.

你认为她的遗产是什么？

What do you think are the what do you think is her legacy?

她的遗产，不只是她儿子的？

Her legacy, not just her son's?

是的

Yeah.

她的遗产在于，她一再提醒我们，在她的信念中，每个人的生命都有召唤，一切发生都有其意义；这并不抹去我们作为人类对恐惧和忧虑的关切，但我们仍需追随这份召唤。

Her legacy is one where she reminds us over and over again that there is, in her belief a calling on our lives and that there is a reason that everything happens and that that doesn't erase, you know, our human concerns of fear or worry, but that we also have to follow that calling.

这就是她所相信的。

That's what she believed.

因此，我认为书中我最喜欢的部分之一，尽管读起来非常痛苦，是她的讣告，以及人们对她所作的评价——她的音乐仍在延续，她的信息通过她的学生、女儿和孙子孙女们继续流传。

And so I think one of my favorite parts of the book, although it's very painful to read, is her obituary and the words that are read about her and that her music is living on, her message is living on through her students, through her daughter, and through her grandchildren.

现在让我们转向我们三人组中的第二位母亲。

Let's turn now to the second mother in our trio.

路易斯·小是马尔科姆·X的母亲。

Louise Little was the mother of Malcolm X.

她实际上出生在加勒比地区的格林纳达。

She was actually born in The Caribbean in Grenada.

安娜，我对这个加勒比岛屿知之甚少，但它深深塑造了路易斯的个性，也塑造了马尔科姆·X——他最初被称为马尔科姆·小——的形成。

And I Anna, I knew very little about this Caribbean island, but it was it very, very much formed who Louise was and who Malcolm X or or Malcolm Little as he first was known became.

告诉我们关于路易丝的事。

Tell us about Louise.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢在书中一开始就指出，这些女性的人生并非从她们出生的那一刻才开始，而是关于代际传承与代际颂扬。

I like to start in the book by noting that these women's lives don't start just the moment that they're born, but that this is all about generational knowledge and this generational celebration.

尤其是路易丝的情况，她的家乡格林纳达充满了反抗白人至上主义、反抗殖民统治的历史。

And especially in the case of Louise, her island of Granada is filled with histories of resistance to white supremacy, resistance to colonization.

因此，一个主要的故事是加勒比原住民——当殖民者即将到来时，他们早已有所察觉。

And so one primary story is the Carib Indians are well, there's colonization coming and they're aware of this.

但他们没有屈服，而是一群人从这座山崖跳下，选择赴死。

And instead of surrendering, a group of them jump from this hill to their death.

他们用行动表明：宁可死去，也不愿活在奴役之中。

And they're making the statement that would rather die than live in captivity.

这是传说还是历史？

This is legend or history?

这是历史。

This is history.

这是真实的。

This is real.

这座山被称为“跃者山”，以纪念他们宁可跳崖也不愿投降或生活在奴役中的壮举。

The hill is called Leapers Hill in commemoration of their act that they would rather jump than to surrender or to live in captivity.

因此，这个故事在格林纳达的原住民社区和黑人社区中反复传颂，讲述着你绝不屈服于压迫。

And so it's a story that's told over and over again, around native communities and black communities in Grenada, all about you do not live in oppression.

好的。

Okay.

因此，她在一种极其推崇独立思考、传颂这种顽强精神的文化中长大。

So she's growing up in in a culture that really reveres independent thinking and hearing stories about this fierce spirit.

而路易丝在大约二十岁左右，作为一个年轻女性搬到了蒙特利尔，然后去了美国。

And she Louise actually moves as quite a young woman around the age of 20 to Montreal and and then The US.

当时年轻女性这样做是否不寻常？

Was that atypical of young women at the time?

非常。

Very.

我的意思是，我们甚至还得谈谈她的祖父母，他们曾经被奴役，但最终获得了自由。

I mean, we also even have to talk about her grandparents, the fact that they were at one point enslaved and they were able to gain their freedom.

因此，他们也坚信黑人自给自足和黑人独立。

And so they also believe in black self sufficiency, black independence.

他们告诉她的这些，他们是尼日利亚人。

They're telling her this, they are Nigerian.

因此，他们还带来了西非关于反抗奴隶制的领袖们的故事。

And so they're also bringing with them West African stories of leaders who have fought against slavery.

因此，她从小就被灌输这样的观念：无论用什么手段，都要为自己挺身而出。

And so she grows up with all of these notions of you stand up for yourself by any means necessary.

你要为黑人自豪和黑人之爱而斗争，她渴望加入这场国际斗争。

You fight for black pride and black love, and she wants to join this international fight.

因此，她加入了这场名为加维主义的国际黑人生命运动。

And so she joins this international movement for black lives, which is called Garveyism.

它基于马库斯·加维的黑人民族主义理念。

It's based on Marcus Garvey's beliefs in black nationalism.

她为他的《黑人世界》报纸撰稿。

And she writes for his Negro World newspaper.

因此，她也非常敢于署名，公开表达自己的信念。

So she's also very unafraid of putting her name in writing and saying this is what I believe.

那她的事业也因此受阻了吗？

So does her career also get derailed?

或者我不该说受阻，但她的事业是否因为

Or I shouldn't say derailed, but does it get

婚姻而提前终止了？

cut short by marriage?

有意思。

Interesting.

我不认为婚姻让她的人生提前终止了。

I wouldn't say it gets cut short by marriage with her.

她在一次会议上结识了一位 fellow organizer，并爱上了他。

She meets, a fellow organizer at one of their meetings, and falls in love with him.

我想说，她爱上的是他毫不妥协地坚持黑人自给自足和黑人民族主义的态度。

Think I I would say she falls in love with the fact that he is also unapologetic about his feelings of Black self sufficiency and Black nationalism.

马库斯·加维注意到了他们，并将他们有策略地派往中西部一些已经表现出反抗意愿的城市，这些地方的人们正以自身的存在和力量回应白人暴力。

And Marcus Garvey takes note of them and sends them very strategically to cities in the Midwest that are already kind of showing that they wanna fight, and they're responding to white violence with their own presence and their own strength.

因此，他们的目标是派遣路易丝和她的丈夫厄尔前往这些地方，进一步激发这种革命精神。

And so the goal is to send Louise and Earl, her husband, to these places to further inspire this revolutionary spirit.

这是他们策略的一部分，他们会被三K党以及像黑军团这样的组织所熟知，这就是他们前往那里的目的。

And it's part of their strategy that they'll be known the KKK and by groups like the Black Legion, which is now So the that's what they're there to do.

他们去那里就是为了表明：是的，我们在这里。

They're there to kind of be like, yeah, we're here.

他们是煽动者。

They're agitators.

这简直就像传教士，但风险更大。

It's almost like missionaries, but even riskier.

非常危险。

Very risky.

他们所做的是非常危险的，而且是有意为之，但这使他们多次陷入危险。

It's very risky what they're doing, and also intentional, but that puts them in danger multiple times.

跟我说说那是什么。

Tell me about that.

跟我说说

Tell me about

他们所面临的危险。

the dangers that they faced.

是的。

Yeah.

他们的房子曾经被烧毁过。

Their house is burned down at one point.

当路易丝怀上马尔科姆时，一群白人男子闯到她家，试图恐吓她，尤其是在她丈夫不在的情况下。

When Louise is pregnant with Malcolm, she is confronted by a mob of white men who come to her house and are trying to intimidate her, especially in the absence of her husband.

他们试图获取信息。

They're trying to get information.

他们试图吓唬她。

They're trying to scare her.

她走出门外，挺直身躯。

And she walks outside, stands tall.

她告诉他们，她不怕他们。

She tells them she's not afraid of them.

她展示出自己怀孕了，这其实根本无法阻止他们伤害她。

She shows that she's pregnant, which is really something that, you know, it wouldn't have stopped them from hurting her.

正如我在书中详述的，黑人女性和怀孕的黑人女性根本得不到尊重，这类例子很多。

There's no respect for Black women and Black pregnant women, as I detail in the book, many examples of that.

但她站在那里，向另外三个孩子展示，面对仇恨时，她希望他们也能这样去做。

But she's there and she's showing her other three children that this is what she wants them to do in the face of hatred.

她这样做可能会危及生命，但挺身而出比接受白人至上的观念更重要。

She might risk her life in doing so, but it's more important to stand tall, rather than accept these notions of of white supremacy.

好的。

Okay.

所以，关于他母亲的这些故事，她为种族权益不惜牺牲生命的举动，显然塑造了小马尔科姆，也就是后来的马尔科姆·X。

So these stories about his mom, her demonstrations of putting her life on the line for her race, they clearly shape Malcolm Little who becomes Malcolm X.

但他成长过程中也充斥着大量的暴力和悲剧，对吧？

But he's also growing up around a lot of violence, right, and tragedy.

而且他相信，大多数人认为他的父亲也是被白人至上主义者杀害的。

And he believes most people believe that his father may have been killed by white supremacists as well.

是的。

Yes.

这是针对小利特一家的一连串袭击中的下一次攻击。

So this was the next attack in a series of attacks against the Little family.

事件发生在某一个夜晚。

And it happens one night.

马尔科姆目睹父亲离开，下一刻他醒来时，发现警察已经到了家里，正在和路易丝交谈，并带她去认领她丈夫的遗体。

Malcolm witnesses his dad leave, and the next thing he knows he's waking up and there are police officers at the house and they're talking to Louise and taking her to identify her husband's body.

报纸称这是一起意外，但所有认识利特尔一家的人，尤其是兰辛的黑人社区成员，都相信这是一起谋杀案。

The newspaper says that this is an accident, but everybody who knew the Little family, especially the black community members in Lansing, all believe that this was murder.

她必须去辨认丈夫的遗体，然后回家照顾当时七个孩子。

And she has to identify his body and then go home to her seven children at the time.

这就是马尔科姆。

So here's Malcolm.

他有六个兄弟姐妹，现在只有一个母亲。

He has six siblings and now a single mother.

他在那样的环境下成长是什么样子？在三十年代，她如何养活这个家庭？

What is it like growing up for him, and how does she care for her family in the thirties?

是的。

Yeah.

丈夫被谋杀后，路易丝尽力保持独立。

After her husband is murdered, Louise does her best to maintain her independence.

但当时法律允许白人福利官员在未经许可的情况下随时进入她家。

But it's also legal at this point for white welfare officers to enter her home whenever they want to without permission.

她非常讨厌这样。

And she hates this.

她讨厌他们可以随意闯入，检查她、评判她，评判她养育孩子的方式。

She hates that they just can come in, examine her, judge her, judge the way she's raising her children.

我们得记住，这种对她的家庭持续不断的攻击，是因为他们是激进的活动家。

Again, we have to remember this continued attack on her and her family because they are these radical activists.

众所周知，他们的处事方式激进，并且也教导他们的孩子认同同样的理念。

It's well known that they are radical in their approach and they're teaching their children also to believe in their same ideals.

因此，这些福利官员会把他们的孩子拉到一旁，问他们关于路易丝的问题，说她有点精神异常，开始在孩子们心中埋下母亲不正常的种子。

And so these welfare officers are pulling their children aside and telling them, asking them questions about Louise, saying that she's acting a little crazy, starting to plant these seeds in their minds that their mother is unwell.

她确实经历了——我可以说是一种抑郁，她感到悲伤，但一位白人男性医生被派来评估她。

She does experience, I would say depression, she's sad, but a white male physician was sent to evaluate her.

在他的病历记录中，他写道，她只是在幻想自己遭受歧视。

And in his doctor's note, he says that she is imagining being discriminated against.

这是逐字引用。

This is a quote verbatim.

她只是想象自己受到了歧视。

She's imagining being discriminated against.

而这足以让她被强制送入机构，长达二十五年左右。

And this is enough for her to be put away in an institution against her will for around twenty five years of her life.

哇。

Wow.

她的每一个孩子都被带走，安置在寄养家庭中。

And each of her children are taken from her and placed into foster homes.

我们知道她在机构里的生活是怎样的吗？

Do we know what her life was like in the institution?

我们对她的经历知之甚少，只能做出有根据的推测，因为关于她那段时期的主要记录，都是州政府写给医院的信件以及医院的回信。

There's very little that we know, and we can only make informed guesses really, because the record of her time there is mainly kept by the state writing letters to the hospital and the hospital responding.

所以他们在询问她的情况如何？

So they're asking how is she doing?

医院则回复说，比如：她仍然在抗拒我们。

And the hospital responds by saying things like, She continues to resist us.

她一直抗拒我们。

She continues to resist us.

这家医院以奇怪的实验性治疗而闻名，我的意思是，在20世纪30年代和40年代，精神病院普遍都是这样。

And this hospital was known for weird experimental treatments, which I mean, would've been kind of the case in the 1930s and '40s for mental institutions.

长期以来，人们都认为应该把你隔离起来，把你关起来。

You know, for so long it was, we should block you away and kind of put you away.

尤其是对于一位黑人女性、一位黑人移民女性来说，被送进一家以实验性治疗著称的机构，我只能想象她在那里经历了什么。

So especially for a black woman, a black immigrant woman put in a facility that's known for experimental treatment, I can only imagine what it was like for her to be there.

是的。

Yeah.

也只能想象他当时是什么处境。

And only imagine what it was like for him.

我的意思是，你描述的是一种相当创伤的童年。

I mean, this is you're describing a pretty traumatic childhood.

双亲都不在身边。

Both parents are out of the picture.

后来，马尔科姆·X确实入狱了。

And later, Malcolm X does end up spending time in prison.

我们是否知道，他将自己的困境在多大程度上归因于母亲被带走的那段经历？

Do we know how much he traced his troubles back to when his mother was taken away?

是的。

Yeah.

他甚至说，他开始忘记母亲教给他的词汇。

He even says he starts to forget the vocabulary that she's taught him.

他开始感到更加愤怒。

He starts to feel even more anger.

我们都知道这个著名的故事：一位老师告诉他，他不能成为律师，因为作为一个黑人男孩，这不是一个合适的梦想。

We know this kind of famous story about the teacher who says he can't become a lawyer because he's that's not a good dream for him to have as a Black boy.

因此，他失去了曾经可以依靠的那份爱，而那份爱本会告诉他：别听那个老师的。

So he doesn't have that love that he used to return to that would have said, Don't listen to that teacher.

比如，我们相信你。

Like, We believe in you.