衡量医疗成功的新视角 | 安德鲁·巴斯塔罗斯

让医疗更具同情心和可扩展性似乎是不可能的，但对于眼科医生兼TED研究员安德鲁·帕斯图里斯来说，你无法真正做到其中一项而忽略另一项。

Making healthcare more compassionate and scalable might seem impossible, but for eye surgeon and TED fellow Andrew Pastauris, you can't truly do one without the other.

我认为，生活中几乎没有比帮助他人更令人快乐的事了。

I think there's very few things in life that are as joyful as being able to help a fellow human being.

人们本质上并不是不关心或缺乏同情心。

People aren't inherently not caring or not compassionate.

如果环境不允许人们停下来关心他人，那么人们就无法践行自己的价值观。

It's if the environment is one that doesn't allow people to stop and care, then people don't live to their values.

在独家采访中，了解这家已服务超过1800万人的医疗公司创始人，为何将同情心医疗置于速度与效率之上，以及他的经验如何应用于生活的方方面面。

In an exclusive interview, learn why the founder of a health company that's reached more than 18,000,000 people is focusing on compassionate health care over speed and efficiency and how his lessons apply to all areas of life.

敬请收听我们《周五研究员》系列的最新一期，仅在《TED演讲每日》播出。

It's coming up on the latest episode of our Fellows Friday series only on TED Talks Daily.

您正在收听《TED演讲每日》，我们每天为您带来新思想与对话，激发您的好奇心。

You're listening to TED Talks Daily where we bring you new ideas and conversations to spark your curiosity every day.

我是您的主持人，伊莉丝·胡。

I'm your host, Elise Hu.

今天的演讲是我们TED研究员影片系列的一部分，专为TED Talks Daily的听众改编为播客形式。

Today's talk is part of our TED Fellows film series adapted for podcasts just for our TED Talks Daily listeners.

我们将在一年中的某些星期五发布这些特别节目，展示我们杰出的研究员们。

We'll be releasing these special episodes showcasing our impressive fellows on certain Fridays throughout the year.

TED研究员项目支持着一个全球创新者网络，我们非常兴奋能与您分享他们的工作。

The TED Fellows program supports a network of global innovators, and we're so excited to share their work with you.

今天，我们想向您介绍眼科医生兼发明家安德鲁·巴斯塔里斯。

Today, we want you to meet eye surgeon and inventor Andrew Bastauris.

早在2014年，安德鲁就曾在TED上分享了他的想法，即利用智能手机技术为偏远地区的人们提供眼科护理。

Back in 2014, Andrew first shared his idea with Ted about developing smartphone technology to bring eye care to people in remote areas.

如今，十多年过去了，他的组织‘巅峰视力’已为全球超过1800万人提供了服务，并设定了新的目标：每周服务一百万人。

Now more than a decade later, his organization Peak Vision has reached more than 18,000,000 people worldwide with a new goal to serve 1,000,000 people every week.

在取得巨大成功的同时，安德鲁正面临一个新的问题。

Now amid his wild success, Andrew confronts a new question.

当医疗体系追逐速度与效率时，我们失去了什么？

What do we lose when health care chases speed and efficiency?

他温和地提出一个发人深省的问题，以改善患者和医疗工作者的双重福祉。

He offers a quiet provocation to get better outcomes for patients and health care workers alike.

在听完安德鲁的分享后，请继续收听与TED研究员项目总监莉莉·詹姆斯·奥尔兹的深入对话。

And after we hear from Andrew, stick around for a deep dive conversation with TEDFellows program director, Lily James Olds.

马上为您呈现。

It's coming up.

当我们进入医疗行业时，没有人最初是抱着追求生产力或效率的目标来的。

When we enter the healthcare profession, none of us actually ever go in with an aspiration of productivity or efficiency.

医疗之所以被称为医疗，是有原因的。

It's called healthcare for a reason.

我们投身于此，是因为我们关心。

We go in because we care.

目前，医疗系统面临的压力让我们倾向于频繁但浅层地看诊三四次，而不是深入地看一两次。

Currently, the pressure on the healthcare system means we'll choose to see someone three or four times superficially rather than once or twice deeply.

我希望我们能提供证据，证明深入地看诊一两次，实际上能为患者和医疗工作者带来更好的结果。

I'd like us to show the evidence that once or twice deeply actually leads to better outcomes for both the patients and the health workforce.

我叫安德鲁·巴斯塔鲁斯。

My name is Andrew Bastaurus.

我是一名眼科医生，全球健康教授，也是Peak Vision的创始人兼首席执行官。

I'm an eye surgeon, a professor of global health and founder and CEO of Peak Vision.

多年前，我在英国当眼科医生时，负责一个非常繁忙的门诊。

Years ago when I worked as an eye surgeon in The UK, I was running a really busy clinic.

我知道那天至少还有四位病人要看，但门诊时间已经到了。

I knew that I had at least another four patients to see that day and I was already at time for the end of the clinic.

墙上挂着一个钟，我能听到滴答声，那声音似乎越来越响。

We had a clock on the wall, I could just hear ticking and that tick seemed to be louder and louder.

我也会更留意外面那些抱怨还没被看诊的人。

I'd also be more tuned in to everyone outside complaining that they hadn't been seen yet.

这时，一位女士进来找我。

And a lady came in to see me.

她看起来很疲惫，仿佛生活十分艰辛。

She looked weary, like life had been hard.

对于英国患有白内障的人来说，她来得也太晚了。

She'd also come in very late for someone with cataracts in The UK.

大多数人不会等到几乎失明才来看病。

Most people don't come in near blind.

她告诉我，她一直没来是因为她照顾了女儿四年，女儿得了癌症，刚刚去世。

And she shared that the reason she hadn't come was she'd been nursing her daughter for four years and her daughter had had cancer and she'd only just died.

在那一刻，我觉得她向我分享了一件神圣的事，如果就这样忽略过去，我会觉得对她不公平。

In that moment, it felt like she'd shared something sacred with me and just to pass it by felt like I was doing her an injustice.

我其实不需要说什么，只是静静地听。

I didn't really have to say anything, I just listened.

我想大概持续了十分钟，但我知道，这十分钟对她来说，比我为她做白内障手术的十分钟更重要。

I think it was maybe around ten minutes, but that ten minutes I know meant more to her than the ten minutes I spent operating on her eye.

她的白内障手术很成功，几天后，我在诊所又见到了她。

Her cataract operation went well, and a couple of days after that, I saw her in my clinic.

所以我预期她会很高兴地进来。

So I expected her to come in pretty happy.

她确实带了个包进来，但里面不是一盒巧克力。

She did come in with a bag, but it wasn't a box of chocolates.

而是一个相册。

It was a photo album.

她一张一张地给我看了她和女儿的合影。

And one by one, she showed me these pictures of her with her daughter.

整个过程中我看着她，突然意识到她从未提过自己看得见了。

And the whole time I looked at her and I realized she hadn't mentioned that she could see.

所以我等着她自己提起这件事。

So I waited for her to mention something.

我甚至主动问她：杰姬，你的眼睛怎么样？

I even prompted her and I said, Jackie, how's your eyes?

她说：哦，挺好。

She said, oh, it's fine.

不疼了。

It doesn't hurt.

然后她看完了所有的照片。

And then she finished showing me the photos.

她合上相册，说：谢谢你。

She closed the album and she said, thank you.

你是唯一一个愿意听我说话的人。

You were the only person that listened to me.

我能给她的最好的礼物，不是恢复她的视力，而是让她真正地被看见。

The greatest gift I could give her was not her sight, but to have her be truly seen.

我认为，人生中很少有事情能比帮助他人带来更大的喜悦。

I think there's very few things in life that are as joyful as being able to help a fellow human being.

人们本质上并不是冷漠或缺乏同情心的。

People aren't inherently not caring or not compassionate.

如果环境不允许人们停下来关心他人，那么人们就无法践行自己的价值观。

It's if the environment is one that doesn't allow people to stop and care, then people don't live to their values.

Peak Vision 这个理念始于2012年，当时我住在肯尼亚，我们正在设立100个临时眼科诊所，将设备和受过训练的医护人员带到所有这些偏远地区。

Peak Vision started as a concept in 2012 whilst I was living in Kenya, and we were setting up 100 temporary eye clinics, taking equipment and trained staff to all of these remote locations.

我突然意识到，这种方式无法大规模解决问题，必须找到一种能触达更多人的方法。

And it dawned on me that this would never solve the problem at scale, that there had to be a way to reach more people.

于是我们开发了通过智能手机进行筛查、诊断和转介的方法。

And so we built ways of being able to screen and diagnose and refer people all on a smartphone.

2014年，我们在两年内服务了7000人，但如今我们每两个月就能覆盖一百万人。

In 2014, we'd seen 7,000 people over two years, but today we reach a million people every two months.

我和我的团队一直在思考一个问题：规模化会带来哪些意想不到的后果？

One of the questions my team and I have been asking is, what are the unintended consequences of scaling?

于是我回想起与杰姬相处的那段经历，当时我们承受着必须尽可能多地接诊病人的压力。

And I went back to that experience I had with Jackie, where there was pressure to see as many people as possible.

我们意识到，自己可能正在制造同样的压力。

And we realized we were potentially creating that same pressure.

当时有各种指标，记录着每个人识别出视力受损者需要多少秒、转介一人需要多少秒，一切都在追踪这种效率表现。

There was all of these metrics that allowed people to know how many seconds it took them to identify a person with vision loss, how many seconds it took to refer someone, and it was tracking everything around that efficiency performance.

我们最终决定：我们最初启动这个项目，并不是为了追求效率，而是为了传递关怀，因为我们相信，关怀本是人性中固有的，只要环境允许人们去关心他人。

And we've decided, well, we started this not as a means of efficiency, but as a means of compassion and this idea that compassion is actually inherent, provided the environment is conducive to people being allowed to care.

因此，我们现在正努力鼓励筛查人员在发现有人有视力问题时，停下来，放慢节奏，认真倾听。

And so now we're trying to encourage that when a screener finds someone with a vision problem, that they stop and they slow down and they listen.

我们希望从‘富有同情心是个好主意’这种软性证据，转向能真正带来更好结果的硬性证据。

We want to move from having soft evidence that being compassionate is a good idea to hard evidence that actually yields better numbers.

因此，我们与印度的合作伙伴开展了一项试验，其中一半的筛查人员被给予更多时间以及不同的成果衡量标准。

So we have run this trial with our partners in India, where half the group of screeners are given extra time and different measures of outcomes.

他们的关键绩效指标已从‘筛查和转诊了多少人’转变为‘记住了多少位被访者的故事’。

Their key performance indicators are going from how many people they've screened and referred to how many stories they remember of the people they've seen.

你可能会认为，如果花更多时间与每个人交流，每天能服务的人数就会大幅减少，我们也预期确实如此。

You'd expect if you're spending that much more time with people, you'll get through much fewer people per day, and we expect that to be true.

然而，我们预计总体前来接受治疗的人数会显著增加。

However, we expect many more people overall to turn up for treatment.

对许多人来说，甚至只是去看医生都是巨大的勇气之举，而是否接受治疗——即使你并不完全理解或缺乏证据证明其有效——完全取决于你与推荐者之间的关系。

For many people, even going to see a doctor is a huge step of courage, and a decision to take treatment that you don't necessarily understand or have evidence that works is all down to the relationship that you have with the person who suggested it.

因此，如果推荐者只被施加压力去快速诊断和转诊，我们认为这正是导致真正需要治疗的人不愿前来的原因之一。

And so if that person's under pressure just to diagnose and send the referral, we think that's one of the reasons why not that many people turn up who need it.

因此，如果建立了信任，我们就认为他们更有可能接受治疗。

And so if trust is built, then we think they're much more likely to take up the care.

次要影响是，提供护理的医生和护士因更贴近他们所从事的工作，倦怠感会减轻，他们感受到的压力将不再是追求数字，而是关注人。

The secondary effect is the doctors and the nurses providing the care will burn out less because they're more connected to the work that they're doing and they'll feel less pressure to see numbers and more pressure to see people.

如果患者有更多时间被倾听，医生也有更多时间去聆听，那么每个人都会更快乐，结果也会更好。

If patients are given more time to be heard and doctors have more time to listen, everyone will be happier and the results will improve.

我们通常以谁拥有最多来衡量进展或成功，这可能表现为市场份额、最多资金或最大权力。

We tend to measure progress or success in terms of who's got the most and that could be measured in market share or the most dollars or the most power.

但我们所有人都深深感受到，除了这些之外，还有更重要的东西。

But we all deeply resonate with there being something more than that.

我们必须玩一场不同的游戏。

There's got to be a different game that we're playing.

衡量一个人是否活得充实，不在于你做了多少，而在于你与他人、与你所爱的人、与你所服务的人建立了多少联系。

The measure of a life well lived isn't how much we do, but how much we connect with one another, with the people that we love, and the people that we serve.

现在，让我们聆听安德鲁与我们的TED研究员项目总监莉莉·詹姆斯·奥尔兹之间的特别对话。

And now a special conversation between Andrew and our TED Fellows program director, Lily James Olds.

安德鲁与莉莉讨论了像他这样的智能技术为何在医疗保健中至关重要，放慢节奏如何重塑了他看待和体验世界的方式，以及这种节奏转变为何至关重要。

Andrew speaks with Lily about why smart technologies like his matter in health care, how slowing down has reshaped the way he sees and experiences the world, and why this shift in pace is fundamental.

接下来短暂休息后，我们将为您呈现。

That's coming up right after a short break.

让医疗保健更具同情心且可扩展，看似不可能，但对于眼科医生兼TED研究员安德鲁·皮斯塔鲁斯来说，没有同情心就无法真正实现可扩展性，反之亦然。

Making health care more compassionate and scalable might seem impossible, but for eye surgeon and TED fellow Andrew Pistaurus, you can't truly do one without the other.

我认为，人生中很少有事情能比帮助他人带来更大的喜悦。

I think there's very few things in life that are as joyful as being able to help a fellow human being.

人们本质上并不是不关心或缺乏同情心。

People aren't inherently not caring or not compassionate.

如果环境不允许人们停下来关怀他人，那么人们就无法践行自己的价值观。

It's if the environment is one that doesn't allow people to stop and care, then people don't live to their values.

在独家采访中，了解这家已服务超过1800万人的医疗科技公司创始人，为何将同情心置于速度与效率之上，以及他的经验如何适用于生活的方方面面。

In an exclusive interview, learn why the founder of a health tech company that's reached more than 18,000,000 people is focusing on compassionate health care over speed and efficiency and how his lessons apply to all areas of life.

敬请关注TED Talks每日节目最新一期的‘研究员星期五’系列。

It's coming up on the latest episode of our Fellows Friday series only on TED Talks daily.

嗨，安德鲁。

Hi, Andrew.

欢迎。

Welcome.

今天能和你交谈真是太好了。

What a treat to get to talk to you today.

嗨，莉莉。

Hi, Lily.

很高兴来到这里。

Great to be here.

在未来四年里，Peak Vision的目标是每周为一百万人提供服务。

So over the next four years, Peak Vision aims to serve 1,000,000 people every week.

这真的令人难以置信。

It's really incredible.

谢谢。

Thank you.

作为一名眼科医生和全球健康教授，根据您的经验，我们在全球范围内面临哪些紧迫的眼病挑战，而峰视科技的技术又是如何具体帮助弥补这些差距的？

I'm curious in your experience as an eye surgeon and professor of global health, what urgent challenges are we facing globally when it comes to eye disease, and how does Peak Vision's technology specifically help address those gaps?

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人们在眼部健康方面面临的问题是，各个年龄段的人都在丧失视力，而且除非有人干预，他们大多对此毫无察觉。

problem people face with eye health is that across the age spectrum, people are losing vision and are largely unaware of it unless somebody intervenes.

所以拿学龄儿童来说，他们中有很多人存在一定程度的视力障碍却未被诊断出来，就像我当年在学校时一样，视力不佳导致行动笨拙，而我其实只需要一副眼镜。

So if you take children in school, many of them have a level of vision impairment that's undiagnosed, much like I was living at school with vision impairment failing, being very clumsy, and all I needed was a pair of glasses.

所以有大量孩子看不清黑板，而一副眼镜就能解锁他们的教育，极大提升他们未来的潜力。

So there's a huge number of children who can't see the board, and a pair of glasses can unlock their education and hugely increase their future potential.

近视或近视眼流行病正在大规模增长，尤其是在中低收入国家，特别是在亚洲。

The shortsightedness or myopia epidemic is growing in huge numbers, particularly if you live in low or middle income country and particularly in Asia.

然后你再看看下一个年龄段，也就是工作年龄的人群。

And then you take the next age group, working age people.

一旦到了35、40岁，开始失去近视力是很正常的。

Once you hit 35, 40, it's normal to start losing near vision.

因此，人们难以完成基本任务，因为他们再也看不清近处的物体。

And so people struggle to do basic tasks because they can no longer make out near objects.

这影响了大量人群，而解决方法只需一副一美元的老花镜，但仍有五亿人或更多无法获得这种简单的治疗。

And so that affects huge numbers of people where the fix is a $1 pair of reading glasses and half a billion people or more still can't access that very simple treatment.

而在老年阶段，许多人因白内障而逐渐失明，这是眼睛晶状体自然老化所致。

And then in older age, have people who start to lose their sight from cataract, which is a natural aging of the lens of the eye.

据估计，约有一亿人因白内障导致视力受损，其中大多数生活在低收入或中等收入国家。

And it's estimated close to one hundred million people have vision impairment from cataract, and the majority of them live in low- middle income countries.

如果你所处的环境医疗资源匮乏，那么你很可能在获得治疗前就去世了。

And if you are in a context where access to care is low, the likelihood is you will die before accessing treatment.

那么，PEEK是如何以一种过去医生根本无法做到的方式，深入到这些人群当中提供帮助的呢？

And so how is PEEK able to meet these people where they are in a way that, you know, definitely wasn't possible before for doctors?

当我们刚开始这项工作时，我们设立了众多诊所，并进行非常全面的诊断评估。

When we started doing this work, we we were setting up all these clinics and doing pretty comprehensive diagnostic assessments.

当我深入肯尼亚的农村社区时，我意识到问题并不在于诊断，而在于人们在被识别出视力问题后，能否完成整个治疗流程，因为大多数人甚至不知道治疗是可能的。

And what I realized when embedded in these rural communities in Kenya was the issue was not actually diagnosing somebody, it was them completing their journey once they had been identified with a vision problem, because the majority of people are not even aware that treatment is possible.

因此他们不会主动寻求医疗帮助。

And so they're not seeking to access care.

即使他们得知了情况，也不知道该去哪里。

And if they are made aware, they don't know where to go.

即使他们知道该去哪里，也面临巨大的障碍难以获得治疗。

And if they do know where to go, they have major barriers in terms of accessing it.

因此，我们着手通过开发一种任何人都能操作的技术来解决这个问题，只要会用智能手机就行。

And so we set about trying to solve for that by building technology that could be operated in the hands of anyone that's smartphone literate.

不需要任何医疗或眼科背景，只需要会使用智能手机即可。

So no need to have any health care background or eye care background, but just be able to use a smartphone.

我们重新设计了我在诊所里所做的一切，让人们能够进行简单的测试和基础评估，帮助我们识别出有视力问题或眼部健康问题的人，并确定他们下一步该去哪里。

And we redesigned everything that I was running in that clinic so that people could do simple tests, could do basic assessments that would help us identify those with a vision problem or an eye health issue and determine where they need to go next.

这项技术的首次应用是在一个学校项目中，对儿童进行筛查，发现其中约有百分之五到十存在视力问题，但只有五分之一的人前来接受治疗。

The very first implementation of this was in a school based program where children were being screened, and a good five to ten percent of them had a problem, but only one in every five turned up for treatment.

于是我们开始尝试理解是什么阻碍了他们获得治疗，第一个发现是：孩子自己并不能决定是否接受治疗。

So we started to try and understand what is it that's stopping them access care, and the first realization was the child doesn't decide whether they get treatment.

因此，我们意识到需要与他们的父母或看护者建立联系，并内置了一项自动消息服务，用于通知家长或看护者孩子已经接受了检测，并且存在视力问题，需要前往何处接受治疗。

And so we realized we needed to connect with their parents or their carers, and we built in an automated messaging service that would notify the parent or carer that the child had been tested and that they had a problem on where they needed to go.

这开始产生显著的效果。

And that started to make a real difference.

但有趣的是，消息的内容带来的影响更大。

But interestingly, the content of the message made even more different.

因此，使用的语言、发送方式、频率——所有这些因素都开始提高他们前来就诊的可能性。

So the language used, the way in which it was sent, the frequency, all of these things started to increase the chance of them coming.

有一次，我们注意到校长实际上可能是我们能够施加影响的关键人物。

And one time, we noticed that actually head teachers could be a key person in this system that we might be able to influence on this.

于是，我们开始向他们发送消息，告知他们的学校在完成转诊方面与邻近学校的对比情况。

So we started sending them messages telling them how their school was performing in terms of completed referrals compared to neighboring schools.

当校长们开始收到这些信息后，就会组织小型巴士，直接带所有有视力问题的孩子前往

And when they started receiving that message, head teachers would organize minibuses, start taking all the kids that had a problem straight to

医院。

the hospital.

你把它变成了竞争性的。

You made it competitive.

这些只是我们学到的经验教训，我们学到了很多。

And it was just these lessons, and we learned so many lessons.

你如何从根本上引导人们的行为，无论是需要护理的人、照顾他们的人，还是对他们能否接受治疗有利益关系的人？

How do you basically nudge people's behavior, whether it's the person who needs the care, the person who looks after that person, the person who has a vested interest in them being able to see?

随着时间的推移，我们开始构建一个数据平台，将家庭、学校、卫生中心、眼科诊所、视力中心和眼科医院连接起来，真正打通了这个人可能前往的所有可能路径，从而提高了他们前往所需地点接受治疗的可能性。

And over time, we started building this data platform that was connected from household and school to health center, eye clinic, vision center, eye hospital, and really connected the whole network of possibilities in terms of where that person might go, and then increased the likelihood of them attending the place they needed to go to get the treatment they needed.

Peak 使用的技术，是否为医生腾出了更多时间去做其他事情？

The technology that Peak uses, does that open up more time for doctors to then do other things?

是的。

Yeah.

因此，判断一个人是否需要接受治疗的评估，只能由具备专业技能的人来进行。

So the assessment that was needed to determine if that person needed to come for treatment could only be made by someone with specialist skills.

这位专家必须在医院工作，或者外出到社区寻找患者，但他们无法同时在两个地方出现。

That specialist had to make a choice of either work in the hospital or go out into the community and find people, but they couldn't be in both places at once.

因此，你在医院里降低了他们的工作效率。

And so you were decreasing their productivity in the hospital.

当你处于这种情境时，面临的挑战是，候诊室里坐着明确的需求。

And the challenge that you face when you're in in a context like this is you've got known need sat in the waiting room.

你知道，有些人因为有问题而来。

You know, you've got people who've come because they have a problem.

对。

Right.

但在社区里，有更多有同样问题的人，他们却不会主动前来。

But then out in the community, you've got many, many more people that have a problem, and they're not asking to come.

因此，医疗服务面临的挑战是，如果你只关注那些已经来的人，你已经忙得不可开交。

And so that's the challenge health services face is if you just focus on who's already there, you're already busy.

你已经有了一堆工作量。

You've already got a workload.

但还有许多这样的人，除非你主动走出去进行 outreach，否则他们永远不会前来。

But then there are all of these people who will never come unless you go to them and do outreach.

因此，我们努力减轻这一挑战对人们的负担，使他们能够在医院层面提高效率和吞吐量，同时让非专业人员走出去进行筛查，并将需要帮助的人带到医院。

And so we try and make that challenge less painful for people so that they can increase their efficiency and throughput at the hospital level whilst also having non specialists go and do the screening and bring the appropriate people to the hospital.

我很好奇想听听你对人工智能的看法。

And I'm curious to hear your take on AI.

还有呢？

What else?

现在大家都在谈论这个话题。

It's all everybody's talking about.

我想知道，第一，你是如何看待它与PEEK及其相关技术的关系的？

I'm curious, one, how you think about it as it relates to PEEK and that particular technology.

另外，随着人工智能在医疗保健中越来越普及，你认为它是否能为临床医生腾出更多时间，让他们放慢节奏，更专注地陪伴患者？

And also as it becomes more embedded in health care, do you see it as a tool that could give clinicians more time to slow down and be present with patients?

还是你觉得它会让我们朝着另一个方向走得更远？

Or do you think it could push us, you know, even further away in the other direction?

所以，我最简短的回答是：是的。

So my shortest version of the answer is yes.

而且，我认为我们可以从很多角度来探讨这个问题，但我的观点是，人工智能将放大人类行为，尤其是我们在线上的行为。

And, you know, I think there are so many angles we could take on this, but my view is that AI is going to amplify human behavior, particularly our behaviors which are online.

这种放大可能是积极的，也可能是消极的，取决于其应用方式。

And that could be for good or less good in terms of of its utilization.

我认为，当前推动人工智能采用和加速的力量正朝着一个让我既担忧又兴奋的方向发展——一方面，我看到一些令人惊叹的新型增强现实或扩展现实眼镜，各大公司现在都开始大力推动这些产品。

And my view is that the current kind of forces driving AI adoption and acceleration are moving in a direction that does concern me and equally excites me on on one side because I look at some of the amazing new augmented or extended reality glasses that are out there that, you know, all the big companies are starting to push now.

这些产品确实非常出色，能够实现地图叠加、语义解读以及其他各种功能。

And and they're they're phenomenal, you know, in terms of being able to get an overlay of a map or got interpretations and and all of these other things.

然而，当我们不断推进扩展现实眼镜的边界时，却面临着一个令人痛心的现实：近十亿人连一副最基础的眼镜都戴不上，而眼镜这项发明已有七百年历史，比大多数国家的历史还要悠久，却依然遥不可及。

Yet, as we're pushing the boundary in terms of extended reality glasses, we have this tragic reality that close to a billion people live without a basic pair of glasses, which is a 700 year old invention, you know, which is older than most nations, and it still remains out of reach for them.

这是一种全球性的忽视，而我看不到有人在讨论如何利用人工智能来弥合这一差距。

So this is this is neglect on a global scale, and I don't see people talking about how are we going to use AI to close that gap.

因此，尽管人工智能潜力巨大，但我目前看不到任何动力在利用这项强大能力去服务那些被边缘化的人群。

So although it has huge potential, I don't see an incentive at the moment which is utilizing this hugely powerful capability to serve those who are being left behind.

我完全理解它在提升生产力、开拓新领域方面的潜力，但如果构建这些新能力所依据的基本原则不能惠及所有人，那么那些目前被遗漏的人群，未来只会被甩得更远。

I completely get its potential in terms of productivity gains, breaking new lines, but unless the underlying principles against which we are building these new capabilities serve everybody, I think those who are currently being left out are gonna be left even further behind in the future.

我想问你一下，既然你们组织目前触及的人数达到了前所未有的高度，你怎么看这个问题？

I guess, let me ask this, you know, to you personally since it's a moment when your organization peak is reaching more people than ever.

你有没有听到过反对意见，认为应该暂停并放慢脚步，而不是一味地继续建造更多？当然，无论是在AI领域还是其他方面，我们一再听到的说法是，成功就意味着不断做更多。

Do you hear any pushback about choosing to pause and slow down rather than just continuing to build more and more, which, of course, whether it's with AI or anything is really what we are hearing again and again, that success is always about just doing more.

我收到的反馈是，这引起了人们的共鸣。

The feedback I'm getting is that it resonates with people.

我想说，这种共鸣甚至不限于医疗领域。

I I would say not not even limited to health care.

我觉得每个人都觉得自己在赶时间，都很忙碌。

I think everyone just feels that they're in a hurry and that they're busy.

你问任何人最近怎么样，通常的回答都是：我很忙。

You know, you ask anyone how you're doing, the usual answer is, I'm busy.

变得忙碌已经成为我们这个时代的标志，我认为我们创造了一种错误的观念，认为做的事情越多就越好。

And it's become the thing of our time to be busy, and I think we've created this kind of false idea that if you're doing lots of things, then that's good.

这又回到了激励机制的问题上。

And it comes down again to what are the incentives?

在医疗领域，一切都被用活动量和吞吐量来衡量，因此，任何想要展现关怀人性的行为，都会面临巨大的压力，迫使他们完成指标、快速处理病人。

So if within healthcare everything is measured against activities and throughput, then whatever somebody wants to do in terms of be a caring human being, there's a lot of pressure on them to do the numbers, get through people.

所以，我在个人层面上没有遇到反对意见，但人们所处的系统根本不是为这种慢下来的做法而设计的，也无法允许人们放慢脚步。

And so I don't get pushback at an individual level, but then the systems that people are operating in are just not designed to do this and to allow people to slow down.

因此，我现在和我的团队正在研究的一个课题是：我们能否提供证据，证明这些事情其实并不相互冲突？

So that's some of the work I'm working on now with my team is can we create evidence that actually shows these things are not in tension with each other?

你可以放慢速度来加速进展。

You can slow down to speed up.

你可以少做一点，却获得更多。

You can do less and get more.

你可以用金钱换取意义，同时保持盈利，并用扎实的数据证明这一点，这或许能稍稍改变现状。

You can exchange money for meaning and still be profitable and demonstrate with this with hard data that might start to move the needle a bit on this.

我想更深入地和你探讨这一点，但首先，我想请你个人反思一下这个问题。

I wanna get into that more with you, but I think first, I would love to just ask you to reflect on that as a question personally.

你是如何在内心调和这种必须扩张公司、同时还要当父母、伴侣、世界公民的压力的？

How do you internally reconcile with this pressure to scale your company, be a parent, you know, be a partner, be a citizen of the world?

你有什么方法来提醒自己放慢节奏呢？

What are your practices to do that, to remind yourself to slow down?

我想和你分享两件事。

I'm gonna share two things with you.

我可以把它们总结为日历和耳机。

So I'll summarize them as calendars and headphones.

首先，我很幸运能够自主安排会议时间。我很久以前就意识到，我每天的第一场会议总是从早上9点开始，而那段时间我正在送孩子上学，这意味着我刚把孩子送到学校，只有五分钟时间赶回五分钟后就要开始的第一场会议。

So the the first thing is I'm fortunate to be able to choose when I start my meetings, and I'd realized for a long time, you know, my first meeting of the day would always be at 09:00, and I'd be doing the school run-in the morning, which meant by the time I dropped the children off, I had, like, five minutes to make a five minute journey home and then straight into that first meeting.

这样做的后果是，每当我看到认识的人，或者有人和我眼神相遇时，我都不得不做出一些显得很匆忙、想避开他们的手势，意思是：我赶时间。

And the consequence of that was if I saw somebody I knew or somebody made eye contact with me, I'd have to try and make some kind of gesture that was dismissive to say, you know, I'm in a rush.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我得走了。

I've gotta go.

我有个会议。

I've got a meeting.

我于是想，我为什么要这么做呢？

And I thought, why why am I doing that?

我不必忽视这些时刻和与人连接的机会。

I don't have to ignore these moments and these opportunities to connect.

所以我把一天的开始时间改到了9:15，这样就有了缓冲时间，可以不慌不忙地送孩子上学。

So I just moved my day to start at 09:15, which means that buffer means I can walk the kids to school without rushing.

这意味着我有时间跟邻居聊天，而正是在这些非预设的时刻，常常会发生一些非常美好的对话。

It means I've got time to talk to neighbors, and it's often in those unscripted moments that some really beautiful conversations have happened.

就在几个月前，送完孩子上学，我散步经过公园时，看到一位老人独自一人，神情孤寂，我能感觉到他不对劲。

And just a few months ago, after the school drop off walking through the park, there was an elderly man there who just looked isolated, and I could tell something wasn't right.

于是我走过去问他是否还好。

So I I wandered over to him and I just asked if he was okay.

他说，他的妻子最近去世了，他感到非常迷茫。

And he said, well, his wife died recently, and he felt really lost.

我们站在那里聊了几分钟，主要是倾听，最后他给了我一个拥抱，我则一路带着温暖的心情走回家。

And we just stood there together for a few minutes talking and mostly listening, and it left with him giving me a hug, and I just walked home glowing.

我感受到了与另一个生命的连接。

I felt connected to another human being.

我并没有减轻他的痛苦，但我至少与他建立了联系，而他也感受到了被倾听。

I hadn't alleviated his suffering, but I had at least connected with him, and he'd felt heard.

有多少这样的时刻正在不断发生，而我们却根本没有察觉？

And how many of these moments are happening all the time that we don't even recognize?

我提到的另一个例子是耳机。

The other I mentioned was headphones.

2025年TED大会的一位主舞台表演者是约书亚·贝尔。

One of the main stage performers at TED in 2025 was Joshua Bell.

他演奏了一段令人惊叹的小提琴曲目，身边还有一支管弦乐团伴奏。

He did this kind of stunning piece on the violin, and he had an orchestra with him.

于是我后来查阅了他的资料，发现他其实参与了一个几乎二十年前——2007年——的有趣实验。

And I so I read up about him afterwards, and it turned out he was part of a really interesting experiment almost twenty years ago in 2007.

在这一实验几天前，他还在为数百名观众演出，票价高昂，人们专程前来，盛装出席，坐定后都知道自己正在见证一场非凡的表演。

So a few days prior to this experiment, he'd been performing in front of hundreds of people for hundreds of dollars, and people had traveled for it and dressed for it and sat down, and and they knew they were witnessing something great.

几天后，他在华盛顿特区的地铁站广场演奏，大约早上8点前，持续了43分钟，约有1100名上班族从他身边走过，他就在露天环境中演奏。

And then a few days later, he was performing in the Plaza Station at Washington DC, you know, just before 8AM, and he played for forty three minutes with about 1,100 people walking past on their way to work, you know, in the in the open.

他并没有躲在角落里。

It was not hidden in a corner.

他演奏的是一把价值超过300万美元的300年历史的小提琴，这把琴是手工制作并代代相传的，演奏过许多流传三百年的乐曲。

And he was playing on this stunning 300 year old violin that's worth over $3,000,000, so it's been like handcrafted and passed down playing pieces that have lasted three hundred years.

他是有史以来最杰出的音乐家之一。

And he was one of the most talented musicians of all time.

我们理所当然地认为，像这样一位天才演奏家，在没有任何障碍的公共场所演奏如此优美的音乐，任何人都可以走近他，他一定会引起轰动。

And we would assume you have someone like that playing that kind of music in the open where there's no barrier, anyone can walk up to him, that he would have stopped.

但实际情况是，因为人们赶时间，他们变得紧张、专注，只想着尽快到达目的地。

But what happened was because people were hurrying, it changed them to tighten up, to narrow, just to focus on getting to where they were going.

人们戴着耳机或耳塞，听着自己的音乐，几乎没人注意到他。

People had their earphones in, their earbuds, and were listening to their own music, and almost no one noticed him.

这并不是出于残忍。

And it it wasn't cruelty.

这是一种缺席。

It was absence.

事实上，只有极少数人驻足，他在四十三分钟内只收到了大约三十美元，而当时有一千多人从他身边走过。

The fact that only a handful of people stopped at all, he raised only, I think, 30 in forty three minutes, given that more than a thousand people passed.

我认为，整整这段时间里，只有一个人真正认出了他，并停下来认真聆听。

And I think only literally one person recognized him the whole time and stopped to really pay attention.

这并不是关于一个超级有才华的音乐家。

And this isn't about a super talented musician.

这是一个关于我们自己的故事。

It's a story about us.

它讲述的是速度如何影响我们的灵魂，以及我们如何总是匆忙赶路，从而错过了那些显而易见的美丽时刻。

It's about what speed does to our souls and how how we're constantly rushing and we miss the kind of obvious obvious beautiful moments that happen.

我们错过了彼此。

We miss one another.

所以，我想，这个邀请就是：摘下你的耳机。

And so I suppose the invitation is just take your headphones out.

当你走上自动人行道时，抬起头来看看。

And when you come up the the travelator, look up.

注意看看你周围的人，因为我们总是在错过这些时刻。

See, notice who's around you because we're constantly missing these moments.

你知道的吗？

You know?

我想，当我们某一天回首人生时，会意识到我们的一生是由那些我们注意到的时刻和那些我们忽略的时刻构成的。

And I and I think when we look back on our lives one day, we'll realize that our our whole life is made of of moments that you notice and and the ones that you don't.

所以，正如你所说，我们每个人都需要去思考，有哪些小行动能让我们在日常生活中更专注，比如冥想、摘下耳机，或者像你之前说的，在会议之间多出十五分钟。

So as much as I think all of us need to figure out, as you're saying, what are these small actions that can make us feel more present in our days and our lives, whether it's, you know, meditating or taking out the headphones or just adding fifteen minutes, as you said before or between meetings.

我觉得，从设计问题的角度来思考这一点也非常有趣。

I think it also is really interesting to think about it from this design problem angle.

对吧？

Right?

因为这不仅关乎我们每个人，也关乎这些系统及其结构方式。

Because it's on each of us, but it's also these systems and how they're structured.

我知道您的团队目前正在开展一项试验，以生成一些坚实的科学证据，证明对患者表现出同情心确实能带来更好的结果。

And I know that your team is currently working on a trial to generate some of this hard scientific evidence that being compassionate to patients actually yields better numbers.

我知道这项研究仍在进行中，但我很好奇，目前您是否有一些更新可以分享，关于这项工作的进展和您的发现？

And I know the study is still ongoing, but I'm just curious if in the meantime you have any updates you could possibly share about how this is going and what you're finding?

是的，当然。

Yeah, absolutely.

正如您所预料的，这些项目都在努力优化吞吐量，因为需求巨大，所以他们追求效率。

So as you might expect, programs are trying to optimize for throughput because the need is huge, and so they're looking for efficiency.

因此，对于筛查员及其主管来说，他们衡量的主要是吞吐量指标：您接待了多少人，推荐了多少人，有多少人实际到场。

And so when it comes to the screeners and their supervisors, what they're measuring is is kind of throughput measures: how many people did you see, how many did you refer, how many turned up.

这些都是不错的指标，但它们优化的是生产力，而不是关怀。

And they're all good measures, but they are optimizing for productivity and not for care.

因此，我们的假设是，人们本质上是富有同情心的，只是缺乏足够深入连接的空间。

And so our working assumption is that people are inherently compassionate, but there isn't the space to connect deeply enough.

当我们去观察人们进行筛查时，就看到了这一点。

And we've seen it when we go and watch people do the screening.

我记得早些年在肯尼亚时，有一位女士已经失明二十多年了，有人上门敲门，做了眼科检查，发现她失明了，但她拒绝接受治疗。

I I remember in the early days being in Kenya, and this lady had been blind for twenty something years at this point, and somebody knocked on the door, did the eye test, found that she was blind, and she refused to go.

她说，首先，她不相信治疗真的可行。

She said, like, one, she didn't believe him that it was possible to be treated.

当时他记录了筛查结果和转诊信息，本可以就此离开，去下一家。

Now, he recorded the screening, recorded the referral, and he could have just walked on to the next house.

但他却问了一句，家里还有别人吗？

But instead, he asked if someone else was home.

家里没有其他人，但隔壁住着他儿子。

There wasn't, but next door was where his son lived.

于是他去敲了隔壁的门，见到了一个叫菲利普的人，跟他聊了起来，解释说他母亲患有白内障、失明了，但视力是可以恢复的。

So he went and knocked on his door, a guy called Philip, got chatting to him and explained that his mother had cataracts, was blind, but could get her sight back.

他花时间认真了解他们为何害怕，为何不愿前来就诊。

He spent the time really trying to understand why were they scared, why would they not come.

通过只是静静地倾听、关注他们，并帮助他们理解接下来会发生什么，他们最终决定接受手术。

And by just sitting and paying attention to them and helping them understand what lay ahead, they decided to take up the surgery.

我总是记得这位女士，她被称为菲利普妈妈，因为她失明太久，大家都以为她不仅看不见，而且不会走路，记忆也丧失了，患有严重的痴呆。

And I always remember this particular lady, so she was kind of known as Mama Philip, because she'd been blind for so long, everyone assumed that she was not only blind but couldn't walk and that memory had gone that she had severe dementia.

但事实上，她已经有二十年没看到过任何新东西了。

But the reality was she hadn't seen anything new in two decades.

然后在接下来的一周她做了手术，当她乘公交车回家时，到了村庄边缘，所有人都下车了，她望向自己的家，认出了它，因为那地方其实没怎么变。

And then when she had her surgery the following week, when she was brought home on the bus, She got to the edge of her village and where they all got out, she looked across at her house and she recognized it because it hadn't really changed.

她的儿子菲利普站在那里，神情非常紧张地看着这一切。

And her son Philip was stood there looking really anxious as this worked.

她看着他，却没认出他来，于是他仍然以为她看不见。

And she looked at him and didn't recognize him, and so he still thought she couldn't see.

突然，她微微前倾，说：‘菲利普，是你吗？’

And then suddenly she kinda leaned forward and was like, Philip, is that you?

他说：‘是的，是我。’

And he said, yes, it's me.

我说：‘天啊，你看起来老多了。’

And I said, wow, you look so old.

发生什么事了？

What happened?

天哪。

Oh my god.

哇。

Wow.

然后，那个社区里所有原本害怕前来的人突然意识到：天啊，看看这个。

And then suddenly everyone else in that community who was scared to come realized that, wow, look at this.

这个人曾经是盲人。

This person was blind.

你现在又能看见了。

You can see again.

我该怎么接受治疗？

How do I get treated?

对。

Right.

就因为这一个人花了几分钟时间去理解他们的恐惧，以及这种恐惧所造成的连锁反应——不仅影响了这个人和他的儿子菲利普，还影响了现在纷纷站出来的其他人——这一切的发生，是因为他们放慢了脚步。

That one person just spent a few minutes taking the time to understand their fears and the ripple effect they have had in terms of not just that one person and their son, Philip, but all the other people who are now coming, that happened because they slowed down.

但如果他们只是完成自己的工作，即达成那些数字指标，这一切就不会发生。

Whereas if they'd just done their job, which was hit those numbers, that wouldn't have happened.

因此，我们在PEEK中面临的核心挑战和提出的问题是：我们该如何为此类情况做设计？

So the kind of challenge we have and the question we're asking in PEEK is how do we design for that?

我们该如何设计，才能为这些关键时刻创造空间？

How do we design to create the space for those moments?

我们意识到，如果我们选择衡量活动本身而非真正追求的结果，系统就会始终偏向于追求更多的活动。

And we realize if we choose to measure activities rather than the outcome we're after, you will always bias the system for more activity.

因此，在这里，对我们而言真正重要的结果是，这个人能够前来并获得有效的治疗，而不是有多少人接受了检测。

So here, the outcome that matters to us is that that person turns up and gets treatment that works as opposed to how many people were tested.

这就是我们现在正在做的事情。

And so that's what we're doing now.

我们正在开展类似这样的实验，比如给予他们更多时间，并改变他们的关键绩效指标。

We're running experiments such as this, such as just giving them more time and changing what their key performance indicators are.

所以，别告诉我你们筛查和转介了多少人，而是给我讲一个你见过并转介的人的故事。

So rather than tell me how many you've screened and referred, it's tell me a story about someone you've seen and referred.

这仅仅改变了重点。

And that just changes the emphasis.

当我们进行初步试点时，我们发现，尽管他们每天接待的人数减少了，但总体前来接受治疗的人数却增加了。

And what we're seeing when we did our kind of pilot work was actually, although they are seeing fewer people per day, more people overall are coming for treatment.

而且，你知道，我们非常期待看到最终的数据，因为看起来并没有什么取舍。

And, you know, we'll be really excited to see the final data because it's looking like there isn't a trade off.

事实上，当你放慢节奏时，接受治疗的人更多了，医护人员也更开心，不会倦怠，留任率更高，患者及其照护者也更满意，更加感激他们所获得的服务。

And in fact, when you do slow down, more people get treated, the health workers are happier and not burning out, and so retention is higher, and the patients and their carers are much happier and appreciating the service they're getting.

而且，这也是一个绝佳的例子，说明了信任在这个过程中有多么重要。

Well, and it's also such a great example of how trust is so important in this process.

我喜欢这个例子，因为它实际上将信任重新融入了医疗系统的整体设计中，而我总觉得很多人对医疗系统缺乏信任。

And I love that example because it's how you're actually building it again into the design of this system in health care, which I just feel like so many people distrust.

对吧？

Right?

我非常期待看到这些试验如何继续发展，以及这种方式是否能推广到医疗领域的其他地方，甚至扩展到众多其他行业。

I'm really excited to see, you know, how those trials continue and if there's ways this can be implemented, obviously, with others in health care, but also across so many sectors.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

And absolutely.

这关乎个人与其所处系统之间的张力。

And it and it is about that tension between individuals and the systems they operate in.

因为如果我们默认人们是善良的，但系统却没有为此设计，那就会出问题。

Because if we have the working assumption that people are good, but the system isn't designed for that, it it is a problem.

如果我们不作为，不是因为不关心，而是因为我们没有为人们创造关心的空间。

And, you if we don't fail to act because we don't care, we fail because we haven't created the spaces for people to care.

因此，我们最终服务的是时钟，而不是彼此。

And so we end up serving the clock rather than one another.

当人们承受压力时，无论他们的价值取向如何，都很难践行它们。

And when you put people under stress, whatever their value set, they're unlikely to live to it.

我认为这是需要牢记的关键一点。

And I think that's a key thing to take away.

任何在设计环境方面拥有影响力的人——无论是家庭环境还是工作环境——如果让人们处于压力之下，就不可能创造一个让他们能够与自身价值观保持一致的环境。

Anyone who's in a position of influence in terms of designing an environment, whether it's your home environment, your work environment, if you put people under stress, you will not create an environment for them to live in alignment with their own values.

我想接着这一点问一下，您会给那些试图重新设计自己的工作或家庭环境、以重视同理心的其他领导者什么建议呢？

And I guess just building off that, what advice would you give to other leaders who are trying to, you know, redesign their own either work or home environments to value compassion, how would you advise them?

我能说的有很多，而且我也意识到，我自己在这方面绝对是言行不一的，因为我当然没有做到所有这些事情。

There's so many things I and I'm conscious that, you know, I'm absolutely hypocritical in this because I I certainly don't do all of these things.

但我觉得可以从一些小事做起，比如和别人交谈时不要把手机放在身边，因为这会显得你心不在焉。

But I think it can be from small things like not having your phone near you when you're talking to someone else because it's a sign of distraction.

你随时可能被分散注意力。

You're ready to have your attention diverted.

或者，如果你必须拿起手机回复信息或处理其他事情，最好明确说一句：‘我正在回复某某’或‘我得处理一下这件事’，因为对方可能会默认你并不值得他们投入注意力。

Or if you have to pick up your phone and communicate or doing whatever it is that you're doing to actually say, hey, I'm just responding to so and so, or I'm needing to do this because the assumption for the person on the other half is I'm not worthy of your attention.

我对此非常警醒，尤其是有了孩子之后，我们该如何为他们树立这样的行为榜样呢？

And I'm super conscious of this, you know, having young children, how do we model those kind of behaviors?

因为他们最终只会重复我们正在做的事情。

Because they'll they'll only end up doing the same things we're doing.

然后我想，在家庭生活中，关键是为自己创造一些空间——如果你偶尔需要独处，那就找到这样的时刻，无论是出去散步，还是早上第一件事、晚上最后一件事，我认为大多数人都需要一些属于自己的空间。

And then I I think, you know, things within home life, it's also just, I think, creating the space to if you're someone that needs to be on your own occasionally, finding those spaces, whether it's going out for a walk, whether it's the first thing in the morning, last thing at night, you know, I think most people need some space to themselves.

在工作环境中，我们正在努力做到这一点，我说‘努力’是因为这确实很难。

And within the work environment, we're trying really hard, and I say really hard because it is hard to do it.

你知道，当你在打造新事物时，无论情况好坏，总有一堆事务在不断涌现。

You know, there's the usual whirlwind of activity when you're building something new, when things are going badly or things are going well.

总有工作要做。

There's always work to be done.

所以你必须努力创造不忙碌的空间。

So you have to kind of work hard at creating the space to not be busy.

我认为，这其中很大一部分在于为人们提供清晰度，而不是确定性，因为我们无法提供确定性。

And I think a lot of that comes from providing people not with certainty because we can't do that, but providing clarity.

清晰度来自于深入的工作，确保每个人都真正理解我们的方向。

So clarity comes from doing the deep work that means everyone really understands where we're going.

我们为什么要做我们正在做的事？

Why do we do what we're doing?

因为太多精力浪费在应对不确定性的无谓周旋中了。

Because so much energy is misspent in the kind of dance around uncertainty.

我认为我们无法解决不确定性。

And I don't think we can solve for uncertainty.

未来是未知的。

The future is is unknown.

但我们可以提供清晰的方向。

But we can provide clarity.

但要提供清晰的方向，我们必须放慢脚步，去做这类工作。

But to provide clarity, we have to slow down and do that kind of work.

这可以非常实际，比如每个季度安排一周规划时间，每两周安排一天无会议日，每天留出一个半小时专心做深度工作，每小时抽出十分钟不参加会议，以便在各项事务之间有缓冲空间。

And that can be as practical as having a planning week per quarter, having a day every fortnight where there's no meetings, having an hour and a half every day where you just get to do deep work, having ten minutes off every hour where you're not in a meeting, so you've got space to move between them.

所以这些都可以是很小的细节，但它们累积起来能为你保留空间，保持视角和清晰度。

So it can be it can be really small things, but these add up to giving you the space to keep perspective and maintain clarity.

好的。

Okay.

我正在做笔记。

I'm taking notes.

我很感激我们能够互相回顾，看看我们各自是如何将这些方法融入日常生活的。

I'm feeling grateful that we can check back with each other and see how we are both implementing these into our daily lives.

安德鲁，我非常感谢你这场对话和你的工作。

I'm so grateful to you, Andrew, for this conversation and your work.

每次和你交谈，我都感受到深刻的意义和希望。

It just always gives me such a sense of depth and hope when I speak with you.

我真的很感激。

I really appreciate it.

哦，谢谢你，莉莉安，还有所有出色的TED研究员团队。

Oh, thank you, Lillian, and all the amazing TED Fellows team.

这是TED研究员安德鲁·巴斯塔里斯。

That was TED Fellow Andrew Bastauris.

你刚才在采访中听到的音乐是由约书亚·贝尔和美国室内乐团演奏的。

The music you heard in the interview is Joshua Bell and the Chamber Orchestra of America.

这段音乐来自他们在TED舞台上的2025年演出与演讲。

It's from their twenty twenty five performance and talk on the TED stage.

要了解更多关于TED研究员计划的信息，并观看所有TED研究员的影片，请访问 fellows.ted.com。

To learn more about the TED Fellows program and watch all the TED Fellows films, go to fellows.ted.com.

今天的节目就到这里。

And that's it for today.

本集由露西·利特制作，由亚历杭德拉·萨拉扎尔剪辑，由伊娃·达舍核对事实。

This episode was produced by Lucy Little, edited by Alejandra Salazar, and fact checked by Eva Dasher.

开头听到的音频来自迪维亚·加登吉和欧文·麦克莱恩制作的短片。

The audio you heard at the top comes from the short film made by Divya Gadengi and Owen McClain.

故事由科里·哈吉姆编辑，由伊恩·洛制作。

Story edited by Corey Hajim and produced by Ian Lowe.

视频制作主管是瑟林·多尔玛。

Video production manager is Sering Dolma.