周日精选：所有孤独的人们 | 来自 Corner Piece

周日快乐。

Happy Sunday.

我是Elise Hu。

Elise Hu here.

今天，我们为你带来一个周日精选，分享一个我们为你精心挑选的TED播客节目。

Today, we're bringing you a Sunday pick where we share an episode of another podcast from TED handpicked by us for you.

我很兴奋地告诉你TED最新的播客《Corner Piece》，这个节目从小处着手，探讨人生的大问题。

I'm excited to tell you about TED's newest podcast Corner Piece, a show that starts small on life's biggest questions.

联合主持人Taha、Melissa和Sabrina是终身好友，也是全职书呆子，你可能从他们的YouTube频道《Answer in Progress》认识他们。

Co hosts Taha, Melissa, and Sabrina are lifelong friends and full time nerds you might know from their YouTube channel, Answer in Progress.

每一集，他们都会拿一个日常烦恼来探讨，比如：浪漫已死吗？

On each episode, they take an everyday worry like, is romance dead?

然后展开全面调查，弄清楚问题有多少是现代生活造成的，又有多少只是人性的一部分。

And launch a full investigation to figure out how much of the problem is modern life and how much is just part of being human.

第一集就探讨了一个我们很多人都深有体会的问题。

The first episode takes on a question a lot of us know too well.

从群聊到视频通话，科技本应让联系变得前所未有的简单。

From group chats to video calls, technology should make connections easier than ever.

那为什么每个人都这么孤独呢？

So why is everyone so lonely?

萨布丽娜决定调查这场席卷全球的孤独疫情，包括她自己的朋友和搭档主持人。

Sabrina sets out to investigate the loneliness epidemic sweeping the globe, including her own friends and cohosts.

她与《孤独传记》的作者费伊·邦德-阿尔贝蒂教授交谈，想弄清楚孤独到底是什么，它从何而来，以及是否有治愈的方法。

She talks with professor Fay Bound-Alberti, author of A Biography of Loneliness, to understand what loneliness actually is, where it comes from, and whether there's a cure.

一路上，塔哈和梅丽莎给萨布丽娜布置了一个支线任务，让她直面自己的孤独，结果发现建立联系竟然这么难。

Along the way, Taha and Melissa challenge Sabrina to confront her own loneliness with a side quest that reveals just how hard connection can be.

你可以在任何收听播客的平台上找到《Corner Piece》，每隔一个周四更新一集。

You can find Corner Piece wherever you get your podcasts with new episodes every other Thursday.

你还可以在 podcasts.ted.com 上了解 TED 的所有播客。

And you can learn about all of TED's podcasts at podcasts.ted.com.

休息片刻后，马上回来。

That's coming up right after a short break.

有商业难题吗？

Got a business problem?

TED演讲里有答案。

There's a TED talk for that.

想了解商业领域的最新动态，可以收听TED商业播客，主持人是哥伦比亚商学院教授莫杜佩·阿基诺拉。

Stay updated on everything business on TED business, a podcast hosted by Columbia Business School professor, Modupe Akinola.

每周她都会介绍一些对工作有独到见解的领导者，回答像“四天工作制怎么运作”这样的问题。

Every week, she'll introduce you to leaders with unique insights on work, answering questions like, how do four day work weeks work?

比如……

Do...

机器会取代我的工作吗？

Will a machine ever take my job?

在TED商业播客中，你会听到一些令人意外的答案，无论你在哪里收听播客都能找到。

Get some surprising answers on TED business wherever you listen to podcasts.

你们感到孤独吗？

Are you guys lonely?

这其实是个私人问题。

This is a personal question, actually.

等等。

Wait.

我不该笑的。

I shouldn't be laughing.

如果答案是肯定的呢？

What if the answer is yes?

你好。

Hello.

我是萨布丽娜。

I'm Sabrina.

我是塔哈。

I'm Taha.

我是梅丽莎。

And I'm Melissa.

我们是朋友，过去五年一直一起在网上做内容。

We're friends who have been making stuff on the Internet together for the past five years.

这就是《Corner Piece》。

And this is Corner Piece.

一档节目。

A show.

欢迎收听。

Welcome to your ears.

我们要从人生最大的问题开始聊起，从小处着手。

We're gonna start small on life's biggest questions.

比如那些我们以为只有自己才有的日常烦恼。

Like those day day worries that we think belong just to us.

但实际上，这些烦恼跨越了我们的文化、时代，甚至可以说，关乎我们的人性。

But actually stretch across our culture, our time, and, honestly, our humanity.

在这一集里，我想弄明白，为什么如今孤独感似乎如此普遍，而科技本该让联系比以往任何时候都更容易。

In this episode, I wanna understand why loneliness seems so rampant nowadays when technology should make connection easier than ever.

我一开始就问他们俩，你们孤独吗？

I started by asking these two if they're lonely.

我其实不太会去想这个问题。

I don't I don't really think about it.

但真要细想的话，有时候确实会觉得孤独。

But then when I think about it, sometimes I am lonely.

不过只要不去想，就没事了。

But then I stop thinking about it and then I'm fine.

哇。

Wow.

我从来没见过比这更明显的需要心理治疗的信号。

I've never seen a bigger cry for therapy.

需要心理治疗？

A cry for therapy?

我觉得心理医生也不会成为我的朋友。

I don't think therapists are gonna be my friend.

转移话题。

Deflection.

梅丽莎，你孤独吗？

Melissa, are you lonely?

我有时候确实会感到孤独。

I do feel lonely sometimes.

但是，我也是那种真的很享受独处的人。

But, like, I'm also someone who really enjoys being alone.

所以有时候我一个人待着，完全没问题。

And so there's times when I'm alone where I'm totally okay.

但有时候我一个人待着，就会想，我需要有人陪伴或者什么的。

And then there's sometimes when I'm alone and I'm like, I want companionship or something.

我从来不想这个问题。

I never think about this question.

这个概念太大了。

It's too big of a concept.

你知道吗？

You know what?

这很合理。

That's fair.

我觉得这正是我问你们的原因。

I think that's kind of the reason why I'm asking you guys.

因为我一直听到关于这个孤独流行病的说法。

Because I keep hearing about this whole loneliness epidemic.

据说影响很大。

It's supposedly really big.

它毁掉了每个人的生活。

It's ruining everybody's lives.

而我不确定自己是否经历过孤独。

And I don't know if I experienced loneliness.

就像，那真的很……

Like, that's really...

说得对。

Based.

太酷了。

So cool.

所以她才会炫耀。

That's why she's like, flexing.

从来没体会过孤独的感觉，

Never had a lonely thought in

我这辈子……

my life....

真的不是想炫耀。

Literally don't mean to flex like this.

但我想问的是，到底是什么导致了这种孤独？

But, like, I think that the question I'm asking is, like, what is causing this loneliness?

如果你非要我想的话，我觉得有很多原因让人难以和别人建立联系。

If you're forcing me to think about this, I think there's, like, a bunch of reasons for why it's hard to connect with people.

就算你每天跟一百个人打交道，如果觉得没人真正懂你，你还是会感到彻底的孤独。

You can be interacting with a 100 people every single day and still be completely lonely if you feel like you are never understood.

从某种角度说，如果你能理解自己，一个人待着也能完全开心。

In a way, you can be understood by yourself and be totally happy being in solitude.

有时候你一个人待着，会感觉轻松、温暖、快乐。

Sometimes when you're by yourself, you can feel like light and warm and happy.

而跟人在一起时，反而可能感觉相反。

And you can also feel the opposite when you're around people.

我一直在琢磨孤独到底是什么感觉，但就是觉得又冷又沉重。

I'm like trying to grasp for what the feeling of loneliness is, but it just feels like cold and heavy.

我觉得这描述得挺准的。

I think that's pretty accurate, actually.

就像胸口空荡荡的。

It feels like a emptiness in your chest

好像没人看得见你，你消失了也没人会在意。

That like no one sees you and no one would notice if you disappeared.

你们俩都有这种感觉吗？

Do both of you feel this way?

我有时候确实会这样，但有时候又不会。

I do sometimes feel like that, but then sometimes I don't.

就是那种感觉不是随便来来去去的，但我觉得偶尔感觉不好也是人之常情。

Like, it's something that doesn't just, like, come and go randomly, but I think that's a normal part of the human experience to sometimes feel not okay.

塔哈？

Taha?

我不……

I don't...

我觉得如果我消失了，可能要过一阵子才会有人注意到，除非我得去上班。

I feel like if I disappeared, it would be a while until someone noticed, except for I have to be at work.

我觉得我不那么难过是因为，我觉得对很多人来说这就是现实，你可以在一个城市里，周围有几百万人，却从来没有真正和任何一个人建立联系。

I think the reason I don't feel that sad about it is because I do think this is the reality for a lot of people in the sense that you can just exist in a city and be surrounded by millions of people and never actually connect with a single human being.

你在每个人的生活里都只是背景噪音。

You're just background noise in every single person's life.

但我觉得如果你所处的环境跟你的背景或者思维方式差异很大的话，那就更难了。

But I think that's even harder if you're in a environment that is very different to your background or the way you think about things.

我是一个生活在种族主义国家的棕色人种。

I'm a brown man in a racist country.

我不知道该怎么面对这件事。

I don't know what to do with that.

但对我来说，这也是孤独的一部分。

But that's part of the loneliness for me.

我就会想，嘿，哥们儿。

I'm like, hey, man.

种族冲突的时候你得站在我这边吧？

You gotta be on my side during the race war?

我真的不太清楚。

I don't really know.

就像，我不太……

Like, I don't...

我是说，这些都是其中的一部分。

I mean, that's all part of it.

就像是……

It's like...

这就是我生活的现实。

This is the reality of my life.

所以我只是……

And so I just...

我就想，好吧。

I'm like, alright.

对你来说，被理解意味着什么？

To you, what does it mean to be understood?

我觉得被理解的时候是很明显的。

I I feel like it's pretty obvious when you are understood.

就是，你不会觉得自己在某个圈子里像个外人。

Like, you don't feel like a stranger in a community.

你会觉得自己属于这里。

You feel like you belong.

你问我这个问题，好像你们不知道似的。

You're asking me as if you guys don't know.

我们这场对话，就是因为我并不……

This entire conversation is because I don't

萨布丽娜，你不知道。

Sabrina, you don't know.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

你根本不知道孤独是什么感觉，因为你的人生太完美了，一切都顺风顺水。

You just don't know what loneliness feels like because your entire life is perfect and based.

这就是我从这次对话中学到的。

That's what I'm learning from this conversation.

我不确定这是不是真的。

I don't know if that's true.

其实我经常觉得自己是个局外人。

I actually feel like an outsider pretty often.

但我很幸运能找到理解我的人，比如Taha和Melissa。

But I've been lucky enough to find people who do understand me, like Taha and Melissa.

而且我不觉得孤独，因为我有科技手段和他们保持联系，即使我们相隔五个时区。

And I don't feel lonely because I have technology to stay connected to them, even when we live five time zones apart.

当我听到人们谈论孤独时，我真想抓住他们的肩膀摇晃他们，说，你什么意思？

When I hear people talking about loneliness, I wanna, like, grab them by the shoulders and shake them and say, like, what do you mean?

我们有手机啊。

We got phones.

我们有群聊啊。

We've got group chats.

我们有Zoom。

We've got Zoom.

我就是不明白。

I just don't get it.

她正在做人们常做的事。

She's doing the thing that people do.

当你告诉他们你感到孤独时，他们会说，不，你不孤独。

When you tell them you're lonely, you're like, no, you're not.

有这么多事情你可以做，所以你不会感到孤独。

There's all of these things that you could be doing so you're not lonely.

但她是在社会层面上这么做的。

But she's doing it on a societal level.

她就像……

She's like...

她看着孤独流行病，然后说，你们所有人都有手机，可以把自己拉进群聊。

She's looking at the loneliness epidemic and going, all of you guys have phones and you can put yourselves in group chats.

你们谁都不孤独。

None of you are lonely.

你觉得现实世界中的面对面交流和数字连接之间有区别吗？

Do you think there's a difference between, like, the the physical connection in the real world versus a digital connection?

因为我会在群聊里。

Because I'd be in group chats.

对我来说，我确实觉得纯粹通过数字方式维持的关系和现实生活中的关系有很大不同。

For me, I do feel a a huge difference between the relationships that I maintain solely digitally and the ones that I have in real life.

比如，如果我们只是来回发表情包，我可能会觉得，行吧，随便，但我会有同样的感受吗？

Like, if we're just sending each other memes back and forth, I'm kind of like, sure, whatever, but do I feel something in the same way?

不会。

No.

我也一样。

I'm the same.

我的意思是，我从来都不喜欢发短信。

I mean, I don't like texts ever.

我觉得这对我来说总像是个任务，从来不会让我觉得有真正的联系。

I feel like it's always a thing for me to do, and it never feels like a meaningful connection.

但这不代表我不喜欢听到朋友的消息。

That doesn't mean that I don't like hearing from my friends.

只是我不喜欢那种基于文字的互动，总是让人感觉很不满足。

It just means that I don't love the text based interaction that's always very unfulfilling.

我觉得这有点出乎意料。

I found this kind of surprising.

对我来说，数字互动和现实互动几乎没什么区别。

For me, digital interactions have always felt almost identical to physical ones.

你知道电视剧里朋友直接闯进对方家里的那种感觉吗？

You know how in TV shows when friends just barge into each other's houses?

对我来说，给群聊发消息就是那种感觉。

That's what texting a group chat feels like to me.

就像一个第二个家，所有朋友都在那里闲逛。

A second home where all of my friends are just always hanging out.

它拥有面对面交流的所有便利，却不需要出行或协调时间。

It's all of the convenience of physical connection without needing to travel or coordinate schedules.

萨布丽娜在群聊里，她也是同样的水平。

Sabrina in a group chat, she is the same level.

就像我坐在你旁边一样，这种感觉我和其他任何朋友都没有过。

It it is like I'm sitting next to you, which is not an experience that I have with, like, any of my other friends.

等等。

Wait.

这倒是真的。

That is actually true.

但如果你们每天都能见面，没有群聊，那不是更好吗？

But wouldn't it be better if you just met up every day and you didn't have a group chat?

不。

No.

那其实看起来……

That actually seems...

说实话，你那么说让我有点不舒服。

Actually, I got uncomfortable with you saying that.

我觉得我的人际关系应该没什么问题。

I think that my relationships are probably fine.

我们是朋友。

We're friends.

好吧，兄弟。

Sure, man.

大家说说，我们现实中多久见一次面？

How often do we hang out in real life, guys?

我觉得我们大概见过10次。

I think we might have hung out 10 times.

过去六年里15次？

15 in the last six years?

难道这还不够吗？

And isn't that enough?

不是。

No.

当我知道朋友们在孤独而我自己不孤独时，感觉很奇怪。

It's strange knowing that my friends are lonely when I'm not.

这让我想在他们身边，但显然我不知道怎么做。

It makes me wanna be there for them, but evidently, I don't know how.

我以为我们的文字和视频通话已经足够了。

I thought our texts text and video calls were enough.

对我来说是足够的。

They are for me.

但我想，治愈孤独的方法因人而异，这让孤独流行的想法更加可怕。

But I guess the cure for loneliness isn't the same for every person, which makes the idea of a loneliness epidemic even scarier.

我们该怎么应对呢？

How do we handle that?

也许与其关注个别案例，我应该先弄清楚是什么导致了这一切的孤独。

Maybe instead of focusing on individual cases, I should figure out what's causing all this loneliness in the first place.

这孤独感是从哪儿来的呢？

Where is it coming from?

所以我联系了《孤独传：一种情绪的历史》的作者，想请她帮帮忙。

So I reached out to the author of A Biography of Loneliness, The History of an Emotion, to help me out.

休息之后，我会和费伊·邦德-阿尔贝蒂聊聊。

After the break, I talk with Fay Bound-Alberti.

嘿。

Hey.

我是丹·哈里斯，《快乐多10%》播客的主持人。

This is Dan Harris, host of the Ten Percent Happier podcast.

世界上坏消息太多了，但有个好消息是，快乐其实是一种可以训练的技能。

There's so much bad news in the world, but one amazing piece of news is that happiness is actually a skill you can train.

所以每周，我都会和顶尖科学家、冥想专家，甚至偶尔请来的名人，聊聊焦虑、抑郁、效率、专注、怎么和难搞的人相处、怎么开悟、迷幻药等等，结合古老智慧和现代科学，帮你把生活过得稍微好一点。

So every week, talk with top scientists, meditation experts, even the occasional celebrity about anxiety, depression, productivity, focus, dealing with difficult people, how to get enlightened, psychedelics, etcetera, ancient wisdom, and modern science to help you do your life just a little bit better.

《快乐多10%》播客，现在就在你收听播客的地方订阅收听吧。

The Ten Percent Happier podcast, listen now wherever you get your podcast.

我叫费伊·邦德-阿尔贝蒂。

My name is Fay Bound-Alberti.

我是研究医学、情感和身体的史学家。

I'm a historian of Medicine, Emotion and the Body.

我想请你帮忙理解孤独。

I'd love to get your help in trying to understand loneliness.

你知道，我给它下的定义是：一种缺失感，源于你想要的社交关系和你实际拥有的社交关系之间的差距。

You know, the way that I define it is it's a sense of lack that comes from the social relationships you want and those that you have.

所以这可能是变化的，对吧？

So that can be variable, can't it?

偶尔的孤独是正常的，它有点像我们在评估生活中发生的事情，哪些进展顺利，哪些不顺利。

A sort of occasional loneliness is normal, and it's part of us kind of like evaluating what's happening in our lives, what's working, what's not.

生活中的关键节点，比如人生转折或变化，无论是成年、离婚还是退休，这时候我们往往会重新调整，审视自己现在的状态。

Pinch points in life where there's a kind of rite of passage or a change, whether we're becoming an adult or we're going through a divorce or we're retiring, that is the moment when we tend to kinda calibrate and work out how are we now.

这就像无聊一样。

It's like boredom.

人们觉得无聊是坏事，但其实无聊是个好信号，说明你此刻对某件事不感兴趣。

People think boredom is a negative thing, but boredom is a really good sign that you aren't interested in something at the moment.

这个比喻真贴切。

Such a good analogy.

这是我们的身体和内心发出的一个很好的信号，说明我们想要别的东西。

It is a wonderful signal from our bodies and ourselves that we want something else.

它其实不是一种单一的情绪。

It's not actually a single emotion.

它是一组不同类型的情绪。

It's a cluster of different kinds of emotion.

所以，一个感到孤立、没有朋友的 teenage boy 描述的孤独，和一个丧偶的老年人描述的孤独，是完全不同的。

So what a teenage boy who's feeling isolated and has no friends might describe as loneliness is going to be really different from what an older person who's been widowed might describe as loneliness.

孤独什么时候从一种情绪变成了现在所谓的流行病？

When does loneliness go from this emotion to what is now deemed an epidemic?

每当社会结构重新调整时，就会有人感到疏离和孤独。

Every time you have a sort of reorganization of a social fabric, you have people feeling disconnected and lonely.

有时候是积极的，有时候是消极的。

Sometimes it's positive, sometimes it's negative.

我觉得关键的区别在于，这种孤独是被迫的，还是自己选择的。

The bit that makes the difference, I think, is when it's enforced and when it's chosen.

因为结构性孤独和阶段性孤独之间差别很大。结构性孤独，比如你没钱，或者没有资源可用；而阶段性孤独，可能是因为生活发生了变化，或者你决定某件事行不通，要改变它。

Because there's a hell of a difference in being I call structurally lonely, like you don't have any money or you've got no access to resources, to being episodically lonely because of a life change or because you've decided that something isn't working and you're gonna change it.

好的。

Okay.

这让我明白了，为什么在互联网时代孤独感反而会流行，甚至变得更严重。

This helped me understand how the loneliness epidemic can exist in the Internet age and even be worsened by it.

互联网重组了我们的社交结构。

The Internet reorganized our social fabric.

它改变了我们工作、约会和沟通的方式。

It's changed the way we work, date, communicate.

而当疫情把大量生活搬到线上时，数字连接不再像是一种替代选择，反而成了默认方式。

And when the pandemic pushed so much of life online, digital connections stopped feeling like an alternative and more like the default.

现在我对这个还挺满意的，因为我喜欢数字连接，但并不是每个人都这样。

Now I'm pretty okay with this because I love digital connections, but not everyone does.

很多渴望面对面交流的人现在很难找到这种机会，因为这个世界不再完全以这种交流方式为主了。

A bunch of people who crave physical connection are struggling to find it because the world isn't exclusively built with it in mind anymore.

这种孤独感，感觉像是结构性的，几乎无法摆脱。

It's loneliness, one that can feel structural and almost inescapable.

我确实觉得线上社区和现实世界中的社区有本质上的不同。

I do think there's something fundamentally different about a community that's online and a community that's in the real world.

这不仅仅关乎拥抱和与人亲近的感觉。

And it's not just about the fact of of having hugs and feeling together with someone.

还关乎“社区”这个概念，它过去意味着共同利益。

It's also the whole notion of community used to mean common good.

所以在现实社区中，你不仅要接受，还要付出。

So you have to give as well as receive in real life communities.

但在线上社区，义务和给予与索取的程度就不一样了。

But in online communities, it's not the same level of obligation and of give and take.

我对孤独的理解是，孤独就是缺乏连接。

The way that my mind thinks about loneliness, I think of it as a lack of connection.

我一直以为，这种缺乏指的是精神上的连接，也就是和他人之间那种智力和情感上的纽带。

And I I think that I've always assumed that it must be a lack of mental connection, like an intellectual, emotional bond with other people.

我们聊情绪的时候，好像总是绕不开大脑，对吧？

All of our conversation about emotions generally tend to be about our brain, don't they?

但我不确定情绪真的就在大脑里。

But I don't know that that's where emotions are.

我的意思是，当我们做那种自我检查，看看自己需要什么、缺什么的时候，其实是在把自己当作完整的人来全面思考。

I mean, when we do that sort of sense check of what do we need and what's missing, it's sort of thinking quite expansively about ourselves as full human beings.

有些人能满足我们的智力需求，有些人能满足我们的情感和身体需求。

There are going to be people that fulfill our intellectual needs and there are people that fulfill our emotional and physical needs.

所以，也许我们需要从不同的人那里获得不同方面的满足，对吧？

So maybe it's partly thinking about we need to feel full of people in the right ways, don't we?

明白了。

I see.

我觉得我之前想得有点太简单了。

I think I've been viewing things a little simplistically.

就是要么跟人建立深刻有意义的联系，要么就什么都没有。

Like, there's either, like, you are forming a deep meaningful connection with somebody or it's nothing.

你知道吗，这也是我最近一直在想的事情。

That's, you know, that's something I've been thinking a lot about recently too.

就像如果你从我们和人的关系来看，你有一个核心圈，里面的人能跟你进行非常深入的对话。

It's like if you think about it in terms of our relationships with people, and you have this kind of inner core where you have really deep meaningful conversations with people.

然后随着圈子往外扩，外围的人更多是那些你在走廊上碰到会打个招呼的人，他们对你来说也挺重要的，但就是那种……

And then as the circle moves out, then you have the outer edges tend to be more filled with people that, you know, are important to you because you'll pass them on the corridor and you'll say hello, and they're kind of...

他们满足某种社交功能，但性质很不一样。

They they fulfill some sort of social function, but it's very different.

这关乎我们拥有的资源的丰富程度。

It's about the kind of richness of resources that we have.

跟Fay聊完之后，我停下来想了想自己的感受，真正的感受，这是我从来不会做的事。

After my conversation with Fay, I stopped to think about how I feel, like, really feel, which is something I never do.

我连续二十年一直处于紧张状态，直到后来才知道自己患有焦虑症，而且我经常纳闷为什么头疼，后来才意识到自己一整天都没喝水。

I was constantly stressed out for twenty years before learning I have an anxiety disorder, and I regularly wonder why my head hurts before realizing I haven't drank water all day.

所以当我真正思考自己社交生活的感受时，我感到很惊讶。

So when I really thought about how I feel about my social life, I was surprised.

它缩小成了一个美好但很小的世界，里面只有我最亲近的人。

It's narrowed into this wonderful but small world of my closest people.

我已经很多年没有体验过Fay所说的“外围”，也就是那些构成社区氛围的普通陌生人。

It's been years since I've experienced what Fay calls the outer edges, regular strangers who make up an ambient sense of community.

我知道原因。

And I know why.

部分是因为我在家工作，很少遇到陌生人，但主要是因为我不擅长闲聊。

It's partly because I work from home and rarely come across strangers, but it's mostly because I suck at small talk.

你好。

Hello.

你今天过得怎么样？

How are doing today?

挺好的。

Doing pretty well.

我这个人很别扭。

I'm awkward.

我找不到合适的话说，而且我特别在意自己，脑子里乱成一团，根本没法好好享受交流。

I can't find the right words to say, and I get so self conscious and stuck in my head that I'm not present enough to actually enjoy the interaction.

我希望我能做到。

I wish I could.

我想要那种联系。

I want that connection.

我想成为某个大集体的一部分，比如社区、邻里，但我就是搞不定那件似乎能让这一切成真的事。

I wanna feel like a part of something big, a community, a neighborhood, but I just suck at the one thing that seems to make that possible.

所以这些年下来，我慢慢就接受了，我不能总是得到我想要的。

So at some point over the years, I just kind of accepted that I can't always get what I want.

天哪。

Oh my god.

这就是塔哈说的那种孤独，但然后就不再去想它的感觉吗？

Is this what Taha meant when he said he's lonely but then just stops thinking about it?

不是。

No.

等等。

Wait.

我们达成一致了吗？

Do we agree?

记得几周前，我们聊天的时候，我说我不确定自己是不是孤独。

Remember a few weeks ago, I, we talked and I said I wasn't sure if I was lonely.

我以为你说

I thought you

你说你没有经历过孤独。

said you didn't experience loneliness.

事情是这样的。

Here's the thing.

我现在也不确定了。

I'm not sure anymore.

我不喜欢你跑去读了一堆东西，然后说服自己你可能很孤独。

I don't love that you went and did a bunch of reading and have convinced yourself that you might be lonely.

我觉得你好像，就是……

I feel like you're, like...

你在试图找点东西让自己显得有趣。

You're trying to find something to be interesting.

你不是……

You're not...

听着。

Listen.

你不需要非得有趣。

You don't have to be interesting.

算了。

Toss.

就像……

Like...

冒名顶替。

Stolen Valor.

你只是想显得古怪又神秘。

You're just trying to be quirky and mysterious.

你可以就做个适应良好、对现有友谊感到满足的人。

You can just be well adjusted and happy with the friendships you have.

也有这种可能。

That could be the case.

但让我解释一下我为什么有疑虑。

But let me explain why I have my doubts.

好。

Okay.

如今，孤独被定义为一种缺失感。

Loneliness nowadays is defined as a sense of lack.

在思考这个问题的过程中，我意识到我渴望更多的、像那种氛围式的社交联系，就是单纯地和别人待在一起，哪怕他们根本不知道我是谁，就像世界里的一个NPC一样。

Working on this and thinking about it, I realized that I have gained a desire for more, like, ambient social connection, just being with people without them even really knowing who I am, like being an NPC in the world.

这话听起来可能有点冒犯，但我不是那个意思。

This is gonna sound rude, but it's not supposed to be.

我觉得你是把社交当成优化问题来处理的自然结果。

I think you are the natural conclusion of treating socializing like an optimization problem.

这也太冒犯了吧。

That's so rude.

我的意思是，随着工作越来越远程化，人们的社交生活也越来越孤立，大家都想拥有那种超级紧密的联系，就是那种“这是我最好的朋友”的关系。

What I'm saying is that I think that as things have moved maybe more remote for work and maybe people are more atomized in their social lives, people are trying to have the super well connected, these are my best friends.

然后呢，其他时间我就不想跟任何人社交了，因为我想做别的事情。

And then, okay, the rest of the time, I don't want to socialize with anyone because I want to do other stuff.

所以社交的梯度被压扁了，要么就是非常好的朋友，要么就是陌生人，中间什么都没有。

And so the gradient is being flattened into really good friends and then nothing else or just stranger.

那些乱七八糟的中间阶段就变得不那么存在了。

And then all of the messy in between stages don't really exist as much.

也许这对我们来说更明显，因为我们不像其他人那样经常参与现实世界。

Maybe that's like more prominent for us as people who don't participate in the physical world as much as everyone else.

就是些小隐士。

Just little hermits.

我们不用通勤。

We don't have a commute.

我们可能没有那些历史上把人们联系在一起的共同经历。

We don't have like these touchstones maybe that historically have binded people together.

那种模糊性完全消失了，在……

That type of ambiguity is totally gone in in...

尤其是在我们的生活中。

Especially in our lives.

我也有同感。

I relate.

有时候，当……结束时

Sometimes the the end of

那个

the

工作日结束的时候，我就想，我太累了不想出门，所以我就自己待着。

workday arrives and I'm like, I'm too tired to leave the house, so I will just hang out by myself.

这样也挺好的。

And that's fine.

但是，是的，我真的需要努力让自己出门。

But, yeah, I really do need to try hard to get out of the house.

我之前跟你们说过这个，你们还老笑话我。

I've said this to you guys before and you guys make fun of me for it.

但最好的社交方式就是，把每个人都当成能给你任务的NPC。

But the best way to exist in society is to pretend like every person in society has a quest that they can give you.

什么？

What?

我可不想接任务。

I'm not looking for a quest.

我只是想待在人群里。

I'm looking to just be around people.

任务是一个概念，不是一个目的地。

The quest is a concept, not a destination.

Taha，我们是在跟一个几乎把每次互动都安排得明明白白的人说话。

Taha, we're talking to somebody who schedules basically every interaction that she has.

不管怎么帮她都没用。

Doesn't matter how to help her.

我们怎么才能让她生活里少点条条框框呢？

How do we tell her to unstructure some

让她生活里少点安排？

of her life?

我觉得我们得逼她给自己安排点任务，就像那种任务一样。

I think we have to force her to schedule, like like, quests for her.

我们可以当她的任务发布人。

We can be the quest givers for her.

好的。

Okay.

我们应该强迫她安排一些模糊的社交任务。

We should force her to schedule, like, ambiguous interaction quests.

我现在觉得自己好失败，因为我刚才居然感到了一丝轻松。

I feel like such a loser right now because I felt a little bit of relief.

那一刻我感到安全，被呵护着。

I felt safe and held in that moment.

就因为把它写进了日程表？

For putting it in your calendar?

是的。

Yep.

难以置信。

Unbelievable.

你知道，孤独的反面之一就是被看见的感觉。

You know, part of, like, the the antithesis of loneliness is feeling seen.

我感觉到

I felt

那一刻被看见了。

seen at that moment.

哇。

Wow.

就是，安排一个模糊的互动。

Just, like, scheduling ambiguity.

下午一点，去咖啡店。

1PM, go to coffee shop.

经历一次模糊的体验。

Have an ambiguous experience.

等等。

Wait.

下午一点，去咖啡店？

1PM, go to coffee shop?

好的。

Okay.

我在咖啡店该做什么呢？

What do I do at the coffee shop?

来一次模糊的经……

Have an ambiguous ex...

好的。

Okay.

她需要例子。

She needs examples.

她需要例子。

She needs examples.

把你的笔记本拿出来吧。

Let's get your notepad.

我希望你去咖啡店，随便找个人聊聊，就说，嘿。

I want you to go to a coffee shop, just talk to someone and be, hey.