周日精选：与詹姆斯·克利尔一起建立原子习惯 | 来自亚当·格兰特的《重新思考》

嘿，TED每日演讲的听众们。

Hey, TED Talks Daily listeners.

我是伊莉丝·胡。

I'm Elise Hu.

今天，我们为大家精选了一期来自TED音频合集的另一档播客节目。

Today, we have an episode of another podcast from the TED Audio Collective handpicked by us for you.

和许多人一样，我在新年里很难养成新的积极习惯，但这并不意味着我不去尝试。

I, like many, struggle to develop any new positive habits in the new year, but that doesn't mean that I don't try.

为了深入了解习惯的科学，我们分享一期《重新思考》节目，嘉宾是亚当·格兰特。

To dig into the science of habits, we're sharing an episode from rethinking with Adam Grant.

亚当与博主、高管教练、《原子习惯》一书的作者詹姆斯·克莱尔进行了对话，他多年来一直研究如何形成和改变习惯。

Adam sat down with blogger, executive coach, and author of the book atomic habits, James Clear, who has spent years studying how to form and change habits.

他们探讨了实现目标所需改变的系统、如何围绕身份建立习惯，以及为何积累小胜利能带来巨大改变。

They discuss what it takes to change our systems for achieving goals, how to build habits around identities, and why accumulating small wins can add up to big changes.

想收听更多深度对话，你可以在任何播客平台找到《重新思考》。

To hear more deep conversations, you can find rethinking wherever you get your podcasts.

了解更多关于TED音频合集的信息，请访问audiocollective.ted.com。

Learn more about the TED audio collective at audiocollective.ted.com.

现在进入本期节目。

Now on to the episode.

大家好。

Hey, everyone.

我是亚当·格兰特。

It's Adam Grant.

欢迎回到《重新思考》，我的这档播客探讨的是驱动人类行为的科学。

Welcome back to rethinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick.

我是一名组织心理学家，带您深入那些有趣人物的内心，探索新的想法和思维方式。

I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

今天的嘉宾是詹姆斯·克利尔。

My guest today is James Clear.

他是《原子习惯》的作者，这本书销量已超过一千五百万册，可能是我读过最实用的书。

He's the author of Atomic Habits, which has sold over 15,000,000 copies and might be the most practical book I've ever read.

他能够将关于行为改变的复杂理念提炼成切实可行的见解，这些见解体现在他每周的通讯《三二一》中。

He has a remarkable capacity for distilling complex ideas about behavior change into actionable insights, which he features in his weekly newsletter, three-two-one.

我曾为他的书写过一段高级推荐语，但这是我们第一次交谈。

I wrote one of the advanced endorsements for his book, but this is the first time we've ever spoken.

我有一些习惯正准备改变。

And I have some habits I'm ready to change.

那么告诉我，你是怎么对习惯产生兴趣的？

So tell me, how did you get interested in habits?

早期，比如我还是孩子的时候，我主要通过运动和学校了解习惯。

Early on, like when I was a kid, the main areas where I learned about habits were through sports and through school.

我喜欢这两件事，但当时并没有以我现在所描述的方式去思考它们。

And I liked both of those things, but I wasn't thinking about it in any way that I would describe now.

我当时根本没有相关的语言来表达它。

Like I didn't have any language for it.

我只是试着去训练，努力做好当天的事情。

I was just trying to go to practice and do a good job that day.

然后在高中时，我受了严重的伤。

And then in high school, had this really serious injury.

我被棒球棒打中了脸，那是个意外。

I was hit in the face of the baseball bat and it was an accident.

球棒从同学手中滑落，直接击中了我的双眼之间，震碎了两个眼眶，鼻骨断裂，筛骨也断了——那是位于鼻梁后方颅骨深处的一块小骨头。

The bat slipped out of my classmate's hands and struck me right between the eyes and it shattered both eye sockets, broke my nose, broke my ethmoid bone, which is a little deeper inside your skull behind your nose.

我跌跌撞撞地回到学校，在校医室回答问题，但答得并不好。

And I sort of stumbled back into school and I started answering questions at the nurse's office, but I wasn't answering them very well.

他们会问：现在是哪一年？

You know, they'd be like, what year is it?

我会说1998年，但实际上是2002年。

And I would say 1998, but it was actually 2002.

我当时人在那儿，但精神上并不在场。

I was there, but not really.

然后他们问我妈妈是谁，我花了大约十秒钟才说出她的名字。

And then they asked me who my mom was and it took me like ten seconds to answer her name.

我失去了意识，被担架送往医院。

I lost consciousness, got taken on a stretcher to the hospital, got there.

然后我开始难以完成吞咽和呼吸等基本功能。

And then I started struggling with basic functions like swallowing and breathing.

我不得不进行气管插管。

I had to be intubated.

我失去了自主呼吸的能力。

I lost the ability to breathe on my own.

当我们到达更大的医院准备进行手术时，我发生了抽搐。

And then I was getting ready to go into surgery when we got to the larger hospital and I had a seizure.

这实际上是我当天经历的第二次抽搐。

It was actually the second one that I had had that day.

他们认为我当时的状况太不稳定，无法立即进行手术。

And they decided that I was too unstable to undergo an operation right then.

于是他们让我进入药物诱导的昏迷状态，我在昏迷中度过了一夜，随后经历了漫长而艰难的康复过程。

So they put me into this medically induced coma and I stayed in the coma overnight and it was this really long process of recovering from that injury.

九个月不能开车。

Couldn't drive a car for nine months.

我在物理治疗中练习基本的运动模式，比如直线行走。

I was practicing basic motor patterns like walking in a straight line at physical therapy.

我连续几周都出现复视。

I had double vision for weeks.

所以我只想 flip 一个开关，回到从前那个年轻、正常、健康的自己。

So all I wanted to do was to flip a switch and go back to being this young, normal, healthy person that I was before.

这是我人生中第一次真正被迫从小事做起。

And it was the first time in my life when I was really forced to start small.

我必须专注于在物理治疗中今天能完成哪些小事，因为现在我真的什么都做不了？

I had to just focus on what can I do at physical therapy that feels like a small win today because I really can't do much right now?

渐渐地，我一步步恢复，最终又能开车了。

And gradually I made my way back and eventually was able to drive a car again.

然后大约一年后，我重新回到了棒球场，最终还上了大学打球。

And then eventually a year or so later, got back on the baseball field and ultimately ended up playing in college.

我现在回望那段时光，已经有了描述它的语言。

I look back on that time now and I have a language for it.

我能用一种方式来描述它，说：‘哦，我只是每天努力进步1%。’

I have a way to describe it and say, Oh, you know, I was just trying to get 1% better each day.

我当时在努力做出这些微小的改进并养成习惯，但如果你当时来找我，我根本不会这么说。

I was trying to make these small improvements and build habits, but I never would have said that at the time, if you would come up to me.

因此，当我亲身经历了培养微小习惯和从伤病中恢复之后，十年后在撰写《原子习惯》时，我开始更仔细地思考这些概念，阅读相关研究，思考它们如何与我的个人经历和主题相融合。

And so I think I had that personal experience with building small habits and recovering from the injury and ten years later when I was writing Atomic Habits, then I started to think about those concepts more carefully, read some of the research on it, wrestle with how that meshed with my personal experience and the topic.

最终我认为，这使我的写作更加出色，因为说实话，我也和所有人一样，面临同样的困扰。

And ultimately I think it makes the writing better because the truth is I struggle with all the same things everybody else struggles with.

你知道，我会不会拖延？

You know, it's like, do I procrastinate?

当然会。

Sure.

一直都会。

All the time.

你知道吗，就在我们聊天的时候，我可能正在拖延某件事。

You know, I'm probably procrastinating on something right now as we're talking.

我就知道你接下这个任务是有原因的。

I knew there was a reason you took this.

没错，就是这样。

Yeah, exactly.

这就是我同意的原因。

This is why I agreed

到底是什么事是我真不想做的？

to What this do I really not want to do?

不如我们来做点别的吧。

Like let's do this instead.

我是不是太关注目标和结果，而忽略了系统和过程？

Do I focus too much on the goal and the result, not enough on the system and the process?

是啊，一直如此。

Yeah, all the time.

在很多方面，我必须养成习惯来撰写《原子习惯》。

In a lot of ways I had to build habits to write atomic habits.

我必须养成写作的习惯。

I had to build a writing habit.

我必须在事业中养成习惯。

I had to build habits in my business.

我必须建立锻炼和营养习惯，以保持足够的状态完成这个大型项目。

I had to build exercise and nutrition habits just to keep myself operating at a high enough level to finish this big project.

这些个人经历让写作变得更好。

The personal experiences have made the writing better.

现在我回望这些经历，觉得它们是非常重要的成长经历，尽管我从未主动寻求过它们。

Now I look back on them and feel like it was really formative experience, even though I never would have asked for it.

理想情况下，不是每个人都需要被棒球棒打中脸才能学到你所学到的东西，但你显然充分利用了那次创伤性事件。

Ideally not everyone needs to get hit in the face with a baseball bat to learn what you've learned, but you clearly made the most of that traumatic event.

是的，我爷爷只会说，那件事让我清醒了。

Yeah, my grandpa would just say it knocked some sense into me.

听起来这件事确实让你醍醐灌顶，但你不仅重新赢回了理智，还远远超过了以前。

It sounded like it literally knocked some sense out of you first, but you earned it back and then some.

所以，我第一次注意到你和你的作品，是你刚写完《原子习惯》并寄给我初稿的时候。

So I think the first time I became aware of you and your work was when you had just written Atomic Habits, and you sent me an early copy of it.

让我产生兴趣的第一件事就是书名。

And the first thing that piqued my interest was the title.

我当时想，哦，这名字真巧妙。

And I thought, oh, this is clever.

因为一方面，原子力是巨大的。

Because on the one hand, atomic forces are enormous.

另一方面，原子又是最小的构建单元。

And then on the other hand, atoms are the smallest building blocks.

我觉得这种对比非常巧妙。

And I thought that juxtaposition was really clever.

而我当时并不知道，你其实还赋予了它第三层含义。

And I didn't realize that you actually had a third meaning of it too.

跟我聊聊什么是原子习惯。

Talk to me a little bit about what an atomic habit is.

原子的第一个含义是微小或细小，就像原子一样。

So the first meaning of atomic can be tiny or small, like an atom.

这正是我对习惯的看法。

And that is kind of how I think about habits.

你应该把它们缩小，让它们变得非常容易执行。

You should scale them down and make them really easy to do.

我们会谈到很多这方面内容。

And, we'll talk about a lot of that.

第二个含义是，原子会组成分子，分子会组成化合物，具有这种增长或累积效应，你的习惯也可以相互叠加。

And the second meaning is that atoms build into molecules and molecules build into compounds and it has this growth or this accumulation effect and your habits can sort of layer on top of each other as well.

它们可以是你所运行的更大系统中的组成部分。

They can be these units in a larger system that you're running.

真正推动结果的是你那些围绕健康建立的习惯集合，或者围绕事业建立的习惯集合等等。

And it's actually the collection of habits that you have that are oriented toward your health or the collection of habits that you have oriented toward your business or so on that drive results.

很少只有一个习惯。

It's very rarely just a single habit.

然后，正如你所说，‘原子’还可以表示巨大能量或力量的来源。

And then finally, as you said, atomic can mean the source of immense energy or power.

我认为，如果你理解了这三个概念，就能看清这本书的脉络：你从微小、容易执行、无威胁、可持续且合理的习惯开始，然后像大型系统中的单元一样将它们层层叠加，最终这些习惯会自然而然地带来强大而显著的成果。

And I think if you understand those three concepts, sort of see the arc of the book, which is you start with changes that are small and easy to do habits that are non threatening and sustainable and reasonable, and you start to layer them on top of each other like units in a larger system, and you end up with these really powerful remarkable results as a byproduct.

我认为，与我读过的其他关于习惯的观点不同的是，你强调了‘系统’这一部分。

What I think was different about that from other takes on habits that I've read is the system part.

每个人都被告诉过：好吧，改变一个习惯，睡觉前穿上运动服，然后早上醒来，也许你就会去锻炼。

Everybody's been told, okay, change a habit, go to sleep in your workout clothes, and then wake up in the morning, and maybe you'll exercise.

对吧？

Right?

我从未见过有人如此系统地——或许并非巧合——指出：我们实际上需要关注这些习惯如何相互配合，并随着时间积累。

I'd never seen somebody so systematically, perhaps not coincidentally, say, we actually need to look at how these habits fit together and compound over time.

是的，我认为正是这些习惯的集合才带来了最大的差异。

Yeah, I think it's the collection of things that makes the biggest difference.

真正能驱动10%或40%结果的改变非常罕见。

It's very rare to have an actual change that drives 10% of the outcome or 40% of the outcome.

我的意思是，现实生活中的这些重大改变并不存在如此简单直接的形式。

I mean, these big changes in real life, they don't really exist like that.

最终推动结果的是许多微小改进的积累。

It's the accumulation of many small improvements that ultimately drives the outcome.

你的习惯也是如此。

And your habits are like that too.

如果你想多读书，仅仅下载Audible并放到手机上，可能本身并不能奏效，但它可以成为拼图中的一块。

If you want to read more books, well, just downloading Audible and putting it on your phone probably isn't gonna do it on its own, but that could be one piece of the puzzle.

当我想要开始多读书时，我做的第一件事是挑选那些让我真正兴奋的书。

When I wanted to start reading more, the first thing I did was I selected books that I was really excited about.

我认为，人们在培养更好习惯时常常忽略的一点是，首先要跨越的最大障碍是：你是否真的对它感兴趣？

And I think this is one thing that people overlook when it comes to building better habits, which is the first and most enormous hurdle to cross is, are you genuinely interested in it?

最常见的新年决心是人们想去做健身。

The most common new year's resolution is people want to go work out at the gym.

我觉得很多人选择锻炼或去健身房，是因为他们觉得应该这么做，或者觉得社会期望他们这么做。

And I kind of feel like a lot of people choose working out or going to the gym because they feel like they should do it or they feel like society wants them to do it.

而不是因为这是最让他们兴奋或有趣的运动方式。

Not because that's the version of exercise or the version of physical activity that's most exciting to them or fun to them.

你应该从这里开始。

And you should start there.

事实上，保持活跃的生活方式有很多方式，比如划皮艇、攀岩、跑步或做瑜伽。

I mean, there are many ways to live an active lifestyle, kayak or rock climb or go for a run or do yoga.

我的意思是，选择任何听起来最自然吸引你的那种方式。

I mean, pick whatever version of it sounds the most naturally appealing to you.

所以我选择了那些让我兴奋的书。

So I chose books that I was excited about.

我下载了Audible，把它放在手机主屏幕上，把其他应用都移到了第二屏。

I downloaded Audible, put it on my home screen of my phone, moved all the other apps to second screen.

这样它就会是我第一眼看到的东西。

So it'd be the first thing I would see.

我买了一些这些书的纸质版，然后把它们散放在家里各处，这样我就永远不会离一本好书太远。

I bought some of those books in print version and then I would sprinkle them around the house so that I was like never far from a bad idea.

然后你也可以制定一个计划，比如每晚上床时，我睡前只读一页。

And then you can also come up with a plan where you say, like when I get in bed at night, I'm gonna read one page before I go to sleep.

我刚才描述了四五件事，但真正推动阅读习惯的是这些做法的集合。

I just described four or five things there, but it's actually the collection of those things that helps drive this reading habit.

并不是其中任何一项改变能彻底改变你的生活。

It's not any one of those changes that's really gonna radically transform your life.

但如果每一项改变都合理、微小，而且有些改变你只需做一次，你就会开始让环境有利于你，让各种力量都为你服务。

But if each of the changes are reasonable and each of the changes are small and in some cases they're choices that you only have to make once you start to stack the deck in your favor and you start to have all these forces that are kind of working for you.

通过建立这种支持你习惯、推动你前进的系统，你现在就能更好地每天坚持下去。

And by creating this system that is lifting you up and supporting your habits, now you're in a much better position to fall through on them each day.

我认为心理学家们常常错过这种方法，是因为我们总想找出关键要素。

I think one of the reasons that we psychologists miss this approach is we're always wanting to figure out what's the active ingredient.

我想找出那个带来改变的唯一核心习惯。

I want to pull out the one anchor habit that made the difference.

你的观点其实是，根本就不存在这样一个单一因素。

And your point is, actually, there isn't one.

其次，也许更有趣的是，你对习惯所做的，就像高可靠性组织防止错误那样，构建了冗余系统。

And secondly, and maybe even more interestingly, it sounds like you did for habits what high reliability organizations do to prevent errors, which is they build redundant systems.

飞机的设计就是这样，对吧？如果一个引擎失效，还有备用选项可用。

Airplanes are designed, right, if one engine fails, right, to have a backup option available.

在你的情况下，如果你今晚忘了读那一页，明天早上一睁眼就能在主页看到它，你很可能就会补上。

In your case, if you forget the one page tonight, you're gonna see it on the home screen the first thing tomorrow morning, and you're probably gonna make up for it.

我真的很喜欢很多工程学的策略和类似的隐喻。

I really, I like a lot of engineering, you know, strategies and metaphors like that.

你可以想想备份系统、冗余、断点这些概念，同样也可以应用于习惯的养成。

You think about backup systems and redundancy and break points and all of those concepts can be applied to building habits as well.

当你做出这些小改变时，它们并不依赖于某一个单一因素，就像你刚才说的，也许并没有一个关键锚点或能改变一切的决定，但总会有个瓶颈。

When you're making these small changes, it doesn't hinge on any one thing the way like you just said, like, oh, maybe there isn't an anchor point or like the one move that changes everything, but there's always a bottleneck.

在制造汽车的过程中，车门可能是整个流程的瓶颈，但这并不意味着你不需要轮胎、前大灯、车顶和其他所有部件。

So in the manufacturing process, you're making a car, maybe the car doors are the bottleneck of the process, but that doesn't mean you don't need the tires and the headlights and the roof and everything else.

你仍然需要所有其他部分。

Like you still need all the other parts.

只是也许在一开始，有一些更具杠杆效应的地方值得关注。

It's just maybe there's a higher leverage place to focus in the beginning.

所以我认为这两者可以共存。

So I think both of those can kind of coexist together.

也许你需要这个整体系统，但通常有一些比其他地方更具杠杆效应的关注点。

Maybe you need this overall system, but there are generally like higher leverage places to focus than others.

是的，我觉得这很有道理。

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.

现在，你为很多人做的一件事是，给了他们一些非常非显而易见、但最终直觉上正确且可操作的原则，用于改变他们的习惯。

Now, one of the things that you've done for a lot of people is you've given them some very both non obvious, but ultimately intuitively true and actionable principles to apply to their habit change.

每当有人提到詹姆斯·克利尔，我脑海中立刻浮现出这些话：习惯是自我提升的复利。

Whenever somebody says James Clear, immediately these phrases go through my head, like, Habits are the compound interest of self improvement.

持续性胜过强度。

Consistency beats intensity.

我们不会达到目标的水平，而是会沉降到我们系统的水平。

We don't rise to the level of our goals, we sink to the level of our systems.

谈谈这些概念以及如何将它们付诸实践。

Talk to me about those concepts and putting them into practice.

像这样的短语，它们成为了我们试图采取的整体策略或方法的简写。

So those phrases like that, they become shorthand for the overall strategy or approach that we're trying to take.

习惯是自我提升的复利。

This idea of habits of the compound interest self improvements.

这是你提到的第一个。

That's the first one you mentioned.

时间会放大你所投入的一切。

Time will magnify whatever you feed it.

所以，如果你有良好的习惯，时间就会成为你的盟友，你每天所做的微小改变、微小的进步。

So if you have good habits, time becomes your ally and the changes that you're making each day, showing up in a small way, making some small improvement.

在任何一天看来，这些变化似乎微不足道，但它们让你走上了一条开始复利增长、不断放大的道路。

It doesn't seem like much on any given day, but it puts you on a trajectory that puts you on a path that starts to compound and multiply over time.

如果你有坏习惯，时间就会成为你的敌人，你会朝着与目标相反的方向前进。

If you have bad habits, time becomes your enemy and you're on a trajectory that's moving you in the opposite direction.

所以我认为这是一个值得自问的有趣问题：我现在的习惯能否带我走向理想中的未来？

So I think that's actually an interesting question to ask yourself, which is can my current habits carry me to my desired future?

你知道，强度常常受到很多讨论。

You know, intensity gets a lot of discussion.

人们总是会谈论跑马拉松、参加为期一周的静修冥想，或者这些引人注目的事情。

People are always going to talk about running a marathon or doing a silent meditation retreat for a week or, you know, just these things that are like kind of notable.

我认为，社交媒体进一步放大了这种现象。

And this is, I think even magnified by social media.

人们几乎从不会分享关于过程的内容。

People are almost never gonna post about the process.

你永远不会看到有人发推文，或者听到新闻报道说：‘今天有人吃了鸡肉沙拉当午餐。’

You're never going to see someone like post a tweet or hear a news story about like, man eats chicken salad for lunch today.

只有当你减掉100磅时，这才会成为新闻。

It's only a story once you lose a 100 pounds or something.

我认为这导致我们略微高估了结果，而低估了过程。

And I think that causes us to overvalue the results a little bit and undervalue the process.

我们如此注重结果，因为我们看到的全是这些。

We get so results oriented because it's all that we see.

一致性才是推动进步和实现结果的关键。

Consistency is what drives progress and drives results.

强度能讲出好故事，但你更希望拥有的往往是基础、工作量、完成工作的能力以及习惯，而不是过度关注结果。

Intensity makes a good story, but it's almost always the case that you'd rather have the foundation, the volume of work, the capacity to do the work, the habits rather than focusing too much on the outcome.

不过，并非生活中的一切都由习惯驱动，对吧？

Now, not everything in life is driven by habits, right?

你有运气和随机性，也有不幸，但这些因素本质上是无法控制的，而你的习惯却是你可以掌控的。

You have luck and randomness, you have misfortune, but by definition, those forces are not in your control and your habits are.

生活中唯一理性的做法，就是专注于那些你能控制的因素。

And the only rational approach in life is to focus on the elements of the situation that are within your control.

因此，这就是我对一致性与强度之间联系的思考方式。

So that's kind of how I think about that connection point between consistency and intensity.

在我潜水的时候，我的教练埃里克·贝斯特总是引用他教练约翰·达西的话：看，赢得比赛的人是那些练得最多次跳水的人。

During my diving days, my coach Eric Best would always quote his coach, John Darcy and say, look, the person who wins the meet is the one who did the most dives.

从某种意义上说，结果几乎已经注定了。

The results were almost baked in in a sense.

我的意思是，表现当然还是重要的，对吧？

I mean, doesn't mean performance doesn't matter, right?

你那天可能还是会搞砸，但如果你只练了一千次，而对方练了一万次，要打败他真的很难。

You still screw it up on that day, but it's really hard to beat the person who's done that dive 10,000 times, if you've only done it for a thousand.

我觉得这完全正确。

I think that's exactly right.

我最初没有明白，但随着时间推移逐渐清晰的是，这其实是一个概率问题，对吧？

What I didn't understand at first and then became clear over time was how probabilistic that is, right?

拥有最佳胜算的人，是那些日复一日坚持努力的人。

That the person with the best odds is the person who's put in the consistent effort day in, day out.

但我觉得你还补充了一点，那就是这些习惯的质量其实也很重要。

But I think what you've also added to that is the idea that the quality of those habits really matters.

我认为这就是系统变得至关重要的地方。

And I think this is where systems become a big deal.

因为我觉得很多人把一万小时法则理解为一场数量游戏。

Because I think a lot of people took the ten thousand hours rule and said, Okay, this is a quantity game.

我需要做的就是投入大量的时间。

And what I have to do is put in the sheer number of hours.

而你说的是，等等，其实有很多方法可以更聪明地工作，我会帮你理解这些方法。

And you're saying, Wait a minute, no, there are a bunch of ways to work a lot smarter, and I'm going to help you understand what those are.

那么这些方法是什么？

So what are those?

我想我们都想知道。

I think we all wanna know.

纳瓦尔·拉维坎特有一个很好的区分，他说，不是一万小时，而是一万次迭代。

Naval Ravikant has this good distinction where he says, it's not ten thousand hours, it's 10,000 iterations.

我认为这其中蕴含着很多真理。

And I think there's a lot of truth in that.

重复本身已经够难了，但每天努力进步1%，不断改进和迭代，完全是另一回事。

Repetition is hard enough on its own, but to try to get 1% better each day to try to improve it and iterate it is a totally different game.

我认为这会稍微改变你的视角。

And I think it changes your perspective a little bit.

你并不是以懒散的方式出现。

You know, you're not showing up in a lazy way.

你不是仅仅想打卡、混够时间。

You're not just trying to like punch the clock and put your time in.

你要培养一种心态，寻找微小的优势来突破。

Trying to have this attitude, this mindset where you're looking for some small advantage to carve out.

所以我认为第一步是这种心态——每天争取进步1%，并意识到这其实并不在于精确衡量。

So I think the first step there is like this mindset, this attitude of trying to get one percent better each day and realizing that it's not really about measuring it.

并不是说，哦，是提升了1%还是1.6%之类的？

It's not like, Oh, is it a 1% improvement or 1.6% or whatever?

重点不在于被数字束缚。

It's not like getting caught up in the number.

更重要的是这种态度和哲学：不仅仅是出现并投入时间，而是真正寻找改进的方法，并相信这些微小的进步确实会累积起来。

It's more this approach and a philosophy of not just showing up and putting the time in, but trying to genuinely find some way to improve and trusting that those small improvements really add up.

非常重要的是问自己：你的系统是为了什么而设计的？

It's really important to ask yourself, what is the system oriented toward?

我正在优化什么？

What am I optimizing for?

有时人们优化的目标是赚更多的钱。

Sometimes people optimize for making more money.

有时他们优化的是自由时间和创作自由。

Sometimes they optimize for free time and creative freedom.

有时他们优化的是家庭时光。

Sometimes they optimize for family time.

我的意思是，可能有无数种可能性，但这是一个非常个人化的答案，你应该警惕继承或模仿他人的习惯。

I mean, there can be an endless list, but it's a very personal answer and you should be wary of inheriting or imitating other people's habits.

从问自己开始：这是否是我希望我的日子所呈现的样子？

Start by asking yourself, is this what I want my days to look like?

所以我认为，从这里开始是构建更好系统的重要一步。

So I think starting there is a really important part of building a better system.

对我来说，《原子习惯》中最反直觉的观点可能是：少关注你想实现的目标，多关注你想成为什么样的人。

Maybe for me, the most counterintuitive idea in Atomic Habits is to focus a little bit less on what you want to achieve and a little bit more on who you want to become.

这与我过去所教授的所有关于目标设定的内容，以及我读过的大量相关研究背道而驰。

This flies in the face of everything I've ever taught on goal setting and a lot of the research I've read on it.

人们通常不容易明白，如果我想达成某件事，我反而应该把注意力稍微从这件事上移开，转而问自己：我想成为怎样的人？

It's not immediately clear to people that if I wanna achieve something, I should actually turn my attention a bit away from that and say instead, what kind of person do I wanna be?

然而，我认为这可以非常有效。

And yet, think it can be extremely powerful.

所以我想听听你对此进一步展开谈谈。

So I wanna hear you riff on that a little bit.

我们通常谈论习惯的重要性，是因为它们能为我们带来外部成果。

So we often talk about habits as mattering because of the external results they'll drive for us.

但我认为习惯真正重要的原因在于，它们强化了你所期望的自我认同。

But I think the real reason, the true reason that habits matter is that they reinforce your desired identity.

你做的每一个行为，都是在为你想成为的那种人投下一票。

Every action you take is like a vote for the type of person you wish to become.

写一句话可能无法完成整本小说，但它确实为那个每天写作的人投了一票。

No writing one sentence may not finish the novel, but it does cast a vote for on the type of person who writes every day.

你开始投下这些票，逐渐积累起关于你是谁的证据，从而改变故事的重心。

You start to cast votes and kind of build up this pile of evidence for who you are and starts to shift the weight of the story.

因此，那些与我们引以为傲的身份相关的习惯，会让人感觉更加自然，仿佛那就是我本来的样子。

And so the habits that are linked to the aspects of our identity that we take pride in, there's something about them that feels like more natural to you, where it's like, is just kind of the person that I am.

更重要的是，我该如何让我的目标与身份保持一致？

It's more like, how do I get alignment between my goals and my identity?

我该如何从想成为什么样的人这一愿景出发，让我的习惯推动这一转变，并相信最终它能带我实现那些我认为至关重要的成果？

How do I start with this picture of who I would like to become and how my habits feed into that and trust that ultimately it can carry me toward some of these results that I say are so important to me.

我认为，这优雅地解释了为什么克里斯托弗·布莱恩有时会发现名词优于动词的效果。

I think it's an elegant explanation of why Christopher Bryan sometimes finds these neat noun over verb effects.

比如，如果你想让孩子不再作弊，与其说‘别作弊’，不如说‘别当一个作弊者’。

Like if you want to get kids to stop cheating in school instead of saying don't cheat, you say don't be a cheater.

突然间，这个行为反映了我的身份，我不愿成为那种作弊的人。

And all of a sudden, that action reflects on my identity, and I don't want to be the kind of person who cheats.

在积极的一面也有类似的效果，比如鼓励孩子帮忙时，说‘做个助人者’而不是‘去帮忙’，或者鼓励公民投票时，说‘做个选民’，对吧？

Similar effects on the positive side with getting kids to help by saying, be a helper instead of help, and getting citizens to vote by saying, be a voter, right?

这是为我想成为的那种人投下的一票。

That's a vote cast for the kind of person I want to become.

我非常喜欢这个说法。

I love that.

我觉得该进行一个快问快答环节了。

I think it's time for a lightning round.

我们来吧。

Let's do it.

你喜欢书籍推荐，我也一样。

So, you're a fan of book recommendations, I am too.

你认为我们所有‘重新思考’和‘工作生活’的听众都应该读或听的一本书是什么？那本书可能是他们还没听说过的。

What's a book you think all our rethinking and work life listeners should read or listen to that they might not have already heard of?

我最近一直在寻找那些浓缩了智慧的书籍。

I've really been on this kick of trying to find books that have compressed wisdom.

我特别喜欢的一本是500年前的作品，叫《处世智慧的艺术》，作者是巴尔塔萨·格拉西安。

So one that I really liked, it's like 500 years old is called The Art of Worldly Wisdom by Balthazar Gracian.

我正在读这本书。

I was reading this thing.

我想，这个家伙五百年前就跟我很像。

Was like, man, this guy was like me, like five hundred years ago.

他那时候就在像博客一样写东西了，远早于博客流行的时代。

He was like blogging like way before it was a thing.

我觉得这本书非常有用。

So I thought that one was really useful.

说到浓缩，我非常欣赏你的一点是你擅长提出和重构观点。

On the subject of compression, one of the things I really admire about you is how good you are at framing and reframing ideas.

我过去对你说的这种‘浓缩’持负面看法，因为在我看来，这听起来像是投机取巧或走捷径。

I've sort of had a negative opinion of what you call compression, because it sounds to me like hacking or shortcuts.

你让我对它有了不同的看法。

And you've made me think differently about it.

你是怎么得出这个观点的？

How did you land there on that one?

有一些挑战，比如它会削弱细微差别。

There are some challenges like it squeezes out nuance.

我认为这显然是一个负面因素。

I would say that's a definite negative.

好处是它容易记住且印象深刻。

The upside is that it's sticky and that it's easy to remember.

我觉得生物学里有个说法，他说你想要一个能扩展成博士论文的车贴吗？

I think biology has this phrase where he says, you want this bumper sticker that expands into a PhD thesis?

我是这样看待这个问题的。

And I think about it like that.

什么样的车贴能提醒我这个更宏大、更重要的想法呢？

Like what's the bumper sticker that can remind me of this bigger, important idea.

我以前从没人告诉过我，你刚才说的我擅长重新框架想法，这可能才是我真正能提供的唯一价值。

I hadn't had someone tell me this before, what you just said that I was good at like reframing ideas, but that actually might be the only value that I really provide.

说实话，大多数事情都已经被反复讨论过很多次了。

I mean, the truth is most things that are, have been covered many times before.

我的意思是，世界上有80亿人，而我们之前已经有过百亿人了。

I mean, there's 8,000,000,000 people in the world and there's a 100,000,000,000 that have lived before us.

这些内容都是已经被踏烂的路。

All this stuff is very well trod ground.

你很少能遇到真正新颖的东西，但也许我能给别人一个全新的视角，或者为某个想法提供清晰度，当有人听到时会说：‘哦，我以前从来没听过这种说法。’

It's very rare that you come across something genuinely new, but maybe I can give somebody, you know, a new angle on it, or maybe I can provide clarity to the thought where if someone says, oh, you know, like I'd never quite heard it put that way before.

值得一提的是，我认为你在表达人们内心认同但无法言说的观点，与挑战他们那些其实错误的假设之间，取得了极好的平衡。

For the record, I think you strike a really good balance between articulating things that people sort of believe but haven't been able to verbalize, and then also challenging some of the assumptions they hold that actually turn out to be false.

我认为，正是这两种特质的结合，让您的言辞如此有力量。

I think it's the combination of those two that makes your words so powerful.

所以你说自己是建筑和旅行摄影的粉丝。

So you profess to be a fan of architecture and travel photography.

所以我要把这两点结合起来问一下：你去过的最喜欢拍摄建筑的地方是哪里？

So I'm gonna combine those two and ask, what's your favorite place you've gone to photograph architecture?

圣

St.

彼得堡，俄罗斯是一座非常奇特的城市，因为沙皇曾经走遍欧洲，直接把各种建筑搬了回去。

Petersburg, Russia is a wild city because the czar basically went around Europe and just plucked buildings.

比如我喜欢这一座。

Like I like that one.

我们去俄罗斯建一座吧，或者去维也纳，说：我喜欢这一座。

Let's go build one in Russia or like go to Vienna and be like, I like that one.

我们去建一座类似的。

Let's go build one like that.

因此，这座城市拥有极其多样化的建筑风格。

So it just has this really wide ranging variety of architecture.

它还有大量的桥梁、运河和水道贯穿整个城市。

It also has tons of bridges and canals and water like traversing all over the city.

于是你就会遇到一种有趣的情况，他们会在夜间升起桥梁。

And so you end up in this interesting situation where they put the bridges up at night.

我不太记得具体时间了，但比如说是从凌晨一点到四点。

I don't remember exactly, but let's say it's from like one am to 4AM.

所以如果你从酒吧出来，时间是12:40，就得赶紧做决定：

So if you're out of the bar and it's like 12:40, like, all right guys, we gotta make a decision.

我们现在回家吗？

Like, are we going back home now?

还是等到凌晨四点再走？

Or are we gonna stay out till 4AM?

因为桥梁很快就要升起了。

Because the bridges are going up soon.

我觉得圣彼得堡很迷人。

I thought St.

圣彼得堡很迷人。

Petersburg fascinating.

关于这个话题，超轻旅行也是你的一个爱好。

On that subject also, ultralight travel is one of your passions.

你最推荐的减轻行李负担的建议是什么？

What's your favorite tip for lightening the travel load?

当我独自旅行时，我总是只带一个包。

When I would travel on my own, I would always only travel with one bag.

我现在还是这样做的。

I still do that now.

我的意思是，像你一样，亚当，我确实要参加很多演讲活动。

I mean, like you, Adam, I do have to do a lot of speaking gigs.

最大的麻烦总是鞋子。

The biggest point of friction is always shoes.

所以，如果你能找到一双用途足够广泛的鞋子，足以应对整个行程，那么其他事情通常就很容易了。

So if you can figure out a way to have one pair of shoes that are diverse enough in their use cases to cover the trip, then the rest of it is like usually pretty easy.

我同意你说的每一点，除了你说我有演讲的那个部分。

I agree with everything you said, except for the part where you said, I have speeches.

你经常做演讲。

You get to do a lot of speeches.

这是你的选择。

That's a choice.

我们可以就此展开一场长谈。

We could have a long discussion about this.

我在大学时有一位举重教练，每次我们来训练，大家都会抱怨训练有多累啊、多难啊，诸如此类。

I had a weightlifting coach in college who we would come in, everybody's complaining about the workout and how hard it is and blah, blah, blah.

他就会说：好吧，听好了，你不是非做不可，而是你有机会做。

He was like, okay, listen, you don't have to do it, you get to do it.

你不是非得送孩子上学。

You know, you don't have to take your kids to school.

你有机会送孩子上学。

You get to take your kids to school.

你不是非得今天来上班。

You don't have to show up at work today.

你今天能来上班。

You get to show up at work today.

这种‘不得不’和‘能够’的细微转变，已经在我心中留存了二十年。

And that little reframe of have to versus get to, it has stuck with me for, you know, twenty years now.

你喜欢精彩的演讲。

You're a fan of great speeches.

有什么演讲是你喜欢的，但我可能没看过的？

What's a speech you love that I've probably not seen?

在jamesclear.com上，我有一个页面，叫做‘大多数人从未听过的精彩演讲’。

So on jamesclear.com, I have this page where it's called great talks that most people have never heard.

在过去五年左右的时间里，我收集了各种演讲的文本稿。

And over the last five years or so, I've just collected transcripts from different speeches.

有时是某个小型学校的毕业演讲，有时是多年后才被上传到YouTube的内部讲话。

Sometimes it's a graduation speech, little school, sometimes it's an internal talk that got posted on YouTube years later.

促使我启动这个项目的，是贝尔实验室的工程师理查德·哈明的一场演讲。

And the one that prompted the whole project is this talk given by Richard Hamming, who was this engineer at Bell Labs.

这是一场他做的内部演讲，题目叫《你与你的研究》。

And it was this internal talk he gave called you and your research.

它讲的是科学研究，但实际上涵盖的远不止这些。

And it's about doing scientific research, but it's actually about way more than that.

其中蕴含着适用于每个人生活的深刻教训。

They're just like lessons for everybody in life that are baked in there.

他提出了许多精彩的小问题，只要你一听，就会觉得：哦，好问题。

And he has so many good little questions in there that as soon as you hear them, you're like, oh good.

有时候，我最喜欢的问题是那些能直击要害的。

Like sometimes my favorite questions are ones that like cut a little bit.

你会觉得：哦，光是思考这个问题的答案，就有点刺痛了。

You're like, oh, that just stings a little to even like think about that answer.

他一个著名的问题是：他坐在一张桌子旁，和一群不同领域的科学家一起，每天中午和他们共进午餐，持续了一周。

Like one of his famous questions, he sat down at a table with a bunch of scientists who were in a different field and he goes and sits down with them each day for lunch for like a week.

他倾听他们谈论自己正在做的研究项目。

And he's listening to them talk about the projects doing the research that they're doing.

然后他最终问他们：你们领域里最重要的问题有哪些？

And then eventually he asked them, Hey, what are some of the most important problems in your field?

他们开始列出一些问题，随后意识到自己正在做的项目并不聚焦或关联于这些重大问题。

And they started listing out some of them and they realized that the projects they were working on were not oriented or related to those big problems.

于是他提出的问题是：你们领域里最重要的问题是什么？为什么你们不去做它们？

And so his question was, what are the most important problems in your field and why are you not working on them?

这是一个非常显而易见的问题，但你可以以个人身份问自己。

And that is like such an obvious thing to ask, but you could say it as an individual.

你个人生活中最重要的问题是什么？为什么你不去解决它们？

What are the most important problems in your personal life and why are you not working on them?

你开始意识到，也许我真该挤出更多时间来多睡一会儿、去健身，或者多陪陪孩子。

And you start to realize like, man, maybe like maybe I should be carving out a little bit more time to get extra sleep or to go to the gym or to spend more time with my kids.

你意识到，有多少时间、注意力和精力都被投向了相对低优先级的问题。

You realize how much time and attention and energy is directed toward relatively low priority problems.

在某些情况下，这些确实是不错的时间利用方式，但并非最佳利用方式。

And in some cases they're actually good uses of time, but they're not great uses of time.

我认为，待办事项清单中最危险的事情之一，就是那些排在第三到第六位的事项。但事实上，这些事项最有可能分散你对第一和第二项任务的注意力，因为你有充分的理由去完成它们。

And I think that's like one of the most dangerous things on your to do list are items, let's say items like three to six, but the truth is those are the items that are most likely to distract you from items one and two, because you have a good justification for doing them.

我认为这是我们每个人都需要停下来思考的问题。

I think that's something we all need to pause and think about.

我的日程中有哪些活动，单独来看是有价值的，但加在一起却干扰了我的更高优先级目标？

What are the activities in my calendar that by themselves are worthwhile, but in aggregate actually interfere with my higher priorities.

你收到过的最糟糕的建议是什么？

What's the worst advice you've ever gotten?

我确实认为，有一个非常常见的陷阱，我本人就多次陷入其中：当你看到某个成功的人，正在做你希望或渴望去做的事情时。

I do think that there's a very common pitfall that I have certainly fallen into many times, which is you see someone who's successful, who's doing the thing that you hope to do or that you aspire to do.

然后你会想，好吧，我要模仿他们所做的。

And then you think, you know what, I'll imitate what they're doing.

问题是，如果你只有一种例子或一个故事作为参考，你会以为自己学到了东西，但实际上你根本没有学到多少。

And the problem is that if you have just one example or one story for something, you think you're learning something, but actually you're not learning very much at all.

大多数建议都是非常情境化的。

Most advice is very contextual.

这非常依赖于具体情况。

It's very dependent on the circumstances.

因此，从这个角度看，建议实际上是相当脆弱的。

And so in that way, advice is kind of brittle actually.

如果你脱离了那个特定的狭窄情境，它就不再以同样的方式成立。

If you'd step outside of that specific narrow circumstance, it doesn't hold up in the same way.

相反，在犯了许多错误之后，我逐渐学会的是：你要去观察一百个正在做你想做之事的人，然后尝试找出他们之间的共同点或模式。

Instead, what I have gradually learned to do after making many mistakes is you want to look at a 100 people who are doing the thing that you wanna do and then you try to find the commonalities or the patterns between them.

因为如果你能找到一个模式，那就意味着存在一些真正的信号，而不仅仅是噪音。

Because if you have a pattern, then there's some signal and not just noise.

你刚刚解释了为什么每当有人告诉我他们喜欢从传记中学习时，我都会产生本能的抵触反应。

You just articulated why I have this knee jerk reaction whenever somebody tells me they love learning from biographies.

不，我们做社会科学就是为了弄清楚这些见解中哪些是真正有效的。

No, we do social science to figure out which of those insights are actually valid.

而且，你是在因变量上进行抽样，你还需要阅读那些失败者的人生传记，而不仅仅是成功者的，然后进行对比，因为正是在这样的对比中，最有意义的模式才会显现出来。

And also, you're sampling on the dependent variable, and you need to also read biographies of people who failed, not just the ones who succeeded, and then compare them, because it's in that comparison that the most meaningful patterns jump out.

然后，正如你所说，你需要进行一系列个人实验，以找出哪些模式适合你。

And then, to your point, you have to run a bunch of personal experiments to figure out which of those patterns are gonna work for you.

我先把话筒给你，问问你有没有什么问题想问我。

I'm gonna give you the mic for a second and ask if there's a question you have for me.

我有个个人问题想了解，就是你是如何建立你的事业以及如何安排你的一天的。

I have a personal question that I wanna know, which is basically how you set up your business and how you balance your days.

我不想要一个庞大的团队。

I don't wanna have a big team.

我只有一名全职员工。

I have one full time employee.

我没有意愿再雇佣更多人。

I have no desire to hire more.

我不希望管理一个庞大到让我头疼的事业。

I don't wanna have this big, big thing that I'm managing.

我认为管理是我的一个弱项。

I think management is kind of a weakness of mine.