本集简介
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其中一个……
One of the...
多年来当记者，我学到的最大的教训——我写过很多独家新闻，也写过很多精彩的故事——但我学到的最大的教训是，我以前总是想，他们在骗我什么？
My greatest lessons of being a reporter over the many years, and I had lots of scoops and lots of, like, great stories I've written, the biggest lesson I learned was that I used to think, what are they lying to me about?
我学到的一件事，我觉得这真的是成为更好的记者的一个重要区别，那就是：他们在骗自己什么？
And one of the things I learned, and I think it's really a profound difference in being the better reporter, was what are they lying themselves about?
而且
And
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
这就要看问题本身了。
That's just That's question.
每次都会带来……
Yields every single...
比如，他们每天需要对自己说什么不真实的话才能撑过这一天？
Like, what what do they need to say every day to get through the day that isn't true?
大家星期天好。
Happy Sunday, y'all.
我是Elise Hu。
Elise Hu here.
今天给大家带来一个周日精选，我们会分享一个来自TED的另一档播客的节目，是我们为你精心挑选的。
Today, we're bringing you a Sunday pick where we share an episode of another podcast from TED handpicked by us for you.
无论你在职场食物链的哪个位置，你都有权力。
No matter where you fall on the corporate food chain, you have power at work.
可能你只是不知道怎么用而已。
You might just not know how to use it.
所以今天我们分享的是我们播客Fixable的一个新限量系列中的一集，叫做《在工作中释放你的权力》。
So today, we're sharing an episode from a new limited series on our podcast, Fixable, called Unlocking Your Power at Work.
主持人Anne和Frances深入探讨如何发现、建立和使用你的权力，探索职场中常见的权力动态，并向那些用诚实和风采充分运用自己权力的人学习。
Hosts Anne and Frances dig into how to discover, build, and use your power, explore common power dynamics in the workplace, and learn from people who use their full power with honesty and swagger.
Kara Swisher是媒体界最有影响力的声音之一，她的职业生涯就是追究有权势的人的责任。
Kara Swisher is one of the most influential voices in media and has built a career holding powerful people accountable.
在这一集里，她和安妮、弗朗西斯一起回顾了自己走向权力的历程，也分享了她在观察中得到的体会——有些人被权力腐化，而另一些人则学会用它来做好事。
In this episode, she reflects with Anne and Frances on her own path to power and what she's learned from watching some people become corrupted by it while others learn to wield it for good.
她还认为，人们辞职往往太早或太频繁，而且应该追求的不仅仅是摆在面前的机会。
She also argues people don't leave jobs early or often enough and makes the case for pursuing more than just the opportunities that are offered.
无论你在工作中遇到什么问题，Fixable都能帮到你，提供切实可行的建议，让你在生活和职场上做出有意义的改变。
Whatever you're dealing with at work, Fixable is there to help, offering actionable insights to create meaningful change in your life and workplace.
无论你在哪里收听播客，都可以找到Fixable。
Listen to Fixable wherever you get your podcasts.
如果你有问题想要解决，可以拨打我们的热线电话234，也就是(234)349-2253，给安妮和弗朗西斯留个语音信箱，说说你工作上的麻烦。
And if you have a problem you want fixed, call our hotline at 234 That's (234) 349-2253 to leave Anne and Frances a voicemail with your workplace problem.
想了解更多TED的播客，可以访问podcasts.ted.com。
Learn more about TED's podcasts at podcasts.ted.com.
稍作休息后，我们马上进入正片。
Now onto the episode after a quick break.
如果你曾经好奇过中世纪的尿液检测和鸡尾酒有什么共同点，那你来对地方了。
If you've ever wondered what diseases medieval pee tests and cocktails have in common, you're in the right place.
在我们的节目《这个播客会要你的命》里。
On our show, This Podcast Will Kill You.
我们探索疾病的奇妙世界，包括它们的历史、生物学和今天的影响。
We explore the wild world of diseases, their history, biology and impact today.
疫苗某种程度上是自身成功的受害者。
Vaccines are in part a victim of their own success.
它们在预防疾病和死亡方面太有效了，以至于我们习以为常。
They have been so effective in preventing disease and death that we take them for granted.
每周二在Exactly Right Network更新新集。
New episodes drop every Tuesday on the Exactly Right Network.
收听
Listen to
《这个播客会要你的命》，可在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或其他你常听的播客平台。
this podcast will kill you on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
这是我经营职业生涯的方式。
Here's how I conduct my career.
我在一家餐厅，那里有鸡肉、猪肉或者牛排。
I'm in a restaurant, and they have chicken, pork, or steak.
然后我想要鸭肉。
And I want the duck.
然后她说，呃，菜单上没有鸭肉。
And she's like, well, they don't have the duck on the menu.
然后我说，哦，我明明就有该死的鸭肉。
And I said, oh, they have the fucking duck.
这里是《可修复》节目，在这个节目里，我们会处理那些看似无法修复的工作问题，并向大家和自己证明它们其实是可以修复的。
This is Fixable, a show where we take the problems at work that feel unfixable and prove to everyone and ourselves that they are not.
我是安妮·莫里斯。
I'm Anne Morris.
我是弗朗西斯·弗莱。
And I'm Frances Fry.
今天，我们有一些非常激动人心的内容要和大家分享。
Today, we have something we're really excited to share with our listeners.
我们要推出一个特别系列节目，讲讲怎么在工作中找到你的力量。
We are launching a special series about finding your power at work.
我们收到很多听众的反馈，说他们在工作中感觉不到自己的力量，但我们也注意到，很多人其实没有充分利用自己已经拥有的力量。
We hear from a lot of listeners who don't feel powerful in their jobs, but we also observe a lot of people who aren't using the full power they already have.
我们也听到一些人的声音，他们在回应别人的力量，也就是说，在面对办公室里的权力动态时，他们处于被动一方。
You know, we also hear from people who are reacting to other people's power, so on the receiving end, reacting to the power dynamics in the office.
而且很多时候，他们就是不知道该怎么应对。
And often, they're just unsure how to respond.
对。
Yes.
我们觉得这个系列能帮大家发现并在工作中真正用好自己的力量。
I mean, we we think about this series as a way to discover and use your real power at work.
我们会深入探讨怎么识别自己的力量，怎么去培养它，怎么跟它好好相处，最后怎么把这份力量用在正道上。
We're gonna dig into how you can identify it, build it, get nice and comfortable with it, and then use your power ultimately for good.
我们在节目里经常提到“气场”这个词，这也是我最喜欢的词之一。
You know, we talk a lot about having swagger on this show, which is one of my favorite words.
我觉得当一个人真正在职场上发挥出全部力量时，你就能从他们的举止和与人相处的方式中看出来。
And I think when someone really connects to their full power at work, you can just see it in the way that they carry themselves, how they relate to others.
这种力量很有感染力，说实话，让人难以移开目光。
It's infectious, and honestly, it's difficult to look away.
完全同意。
Totally.
为了开个好头，我们请来了一位非常有范儿的嘉宾。
And to kick us off, we have a guest who has a whole lot of swagger.
她以让有权有势的人负责为己任，建立了自己的生活和事业，而且她本身就很有影响力。
She's built a life and an incredible career around holding the powerful accountable, and she's powerful in her own right.
我们说的是传奇人物卡拉·斯威舍，她是当今媒体界最有影响力的声音之一。
We're talking about the legendary Kara Swisher, one of the most influential voices in media today.
如果你在寻找榜样，不用再找了。
And if you are looking for a role model, look no further.
她从上世纪九十年代初就开始报道科技新闻了。
She has been reporting on tech since the early nineties.
她曾在《纽约时报》、《华尔街日报》和《华盛顿邮报》工作过。
She's worked at the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post.
她的回忆录《烧书：一段科技爱情故事》是《纽约时报》的畅销书。
Her memoir, Burn Book, A Tech Love Story, is a New York Times bestseller.
她主持播客《与卡拉·斯威舍对话》，当然，也是《Pivot》的联合主持人。
She's the host of the podcast on with Kara Swisher and, of course, the cohost of Pivot.
弗朗西斯，你在优步的时候就认识卡拉了。
Frances, you know Kara from your Uber days.
不了解的听众可能不知道，2017年你从哈佛休假，加入优步，担任首位领导力与战略高级副总裁。
For listeners who don't know, you took a sabbatical from Harvard back in 2017 to join Uber as their first senior vice president of leadership and strategy.
跟我聊聊你第一次见卡拉的情景吧。
Tell me about your first meeting with Kara.
你当时对她的印象如何？
What was your impression?
哇。
Whew.
太硬核了。
Hardcore.
她绝对是敢说真话的人，为了追求真相，她毫不退缩。
Definitely speaks truth to power, and she doesn't flinch for a moment in the pursuit of that truth.
这些印象都是在早餐时了解到的。
And all of that was learned over breakfast.
其实，我是在去优步上班的第一天路上见到她的。
In fact, I met her on the way in to my first day at Uber.
所以他们安排了和卡拉的早餐会面，就在我去办公室的路上。
So I met they they arranged the breakfast meeting with Kara on my way into the office.
哇。
Just Wow.
完美。
Perfect.
这是入职培训的一部分吗？
Part of the onboarding?
当时是什么情况？
What was the context?
我，我是那个刚进来的人。
I I was the I was a person that was coming in.
那时候公司正处在非常公开的危机当中，我是被请来帮忙处理危机的。
It was in a very public crisis, and I was a person that was brought in to be helpful during the crisis.
我……
I...
我们刚结束和他们的咨询合作，但那天是我第一天全职入职。
You know, we had just finished our consulting with them, but this was my first day as a full time employee.
所以，我是在进去的路上认识她的。
And and so I met her on the way in.
然后……
And it...
就开干了。
You know, game on.
而且根本没有寒暄，就是那种闲聊。
And there's no small talk, like, small talk.
坐下就直接进入正题了。
It was just sit down, and here we go.
进入正题了。
Here we go.
嗯，我觉得这次对话肯定会很有意思。
Well, I I think this conversation is gonna be really fun.
那我们就请她进来吧。
So let's bring her in.
卡拉·斯威舍，欢迎来到《可修复》。
Kara Swisher, welcome to Fixable.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我很喜欢这个节目的名字。
I'm excited about the name of this thing.
我们要修什么？
What are we fixing?
今天我们要处理权力关系的问题。
We're fixing power dynamics today.
好的。
Alright.
明白了。
Okay.
好。
Alright.
这听起来像是个笑话的开头。
This feels like the premise to a joke.
三个女同走进一个播客，或者是个脑筋急转弯。
Three lesbians walk into a podcast or or a brain teaser.
其中两个是已婚的。
Two of them are married.
有多少女同性恋者没法离开？
How many lesbians can't leave?
你是那种喜欢修理的人吗？
Are you a fixie person?
你会修东西吗？
Do you fix things?
我是个爱修东西的人。
I'm a fixer.
我……
I...
我不是那种会带着工具箱的女同性恋。
I'm not a tool belt lesbian.
好的。
Okay.
不是。
No.
好。
Alright.
但我们是乐观主义者。
But we are optimists.
哦，好吧。
Oh, alright.
所以……
So...
哦，你说的是心理上的修复。
Oh, you're talking about mental fixing.
哦，那个我不做。
Oh, I don't do that.
不。
No.
我觉得你更手巧。
I think you're handier.
我是个手巧的人。
I am a handy.
我是个手巧的公众评论员。
I'm a handy public comment.
我是个手巧的……
I'm a handy...
是的。
I do.
我喜欢修理东西。
I love to fix things.
所以，卡拉，这次对话是我们做的关于权力与影响力的系列节目的一部分。
So, Kara, this this conversation is part of a series we're doing on power and influence.
好的。
Alright.
我们跟制片人说了，想要一位性感的记者来主持这个系列。
And we told our producers we wanted a sexy journalist to anchor the series.
你们请了谁？
Who did you get?
你是大家的第一选择。
You were everyone's first choice.
好。
Alright.
大家首选我，因为我看起来帅。
You were everyone's first because I'm looking good.
我刚锻炼完，所以现在状态特别好。
I just worked out, so I look fantastic right now.
好。
Alright.
那在我们聊权力之前，想先花点时间聊聊你的故事。
So before we get into power, we'd love to spend a minute on your story.
好的。
Okay.
你在翠贝卡电影节上接受马克·马龙采访时，人们可以在你和卡拉·斯威舍的精彩访谈播客中听到这段话。
In your interview with Mark Marron at the Tribeca Film Festival, which people can hear on your excellent interview podcast on with Kara Swisher.
在哪个时刻你基本上说，我不感到焦虑？
At what point you say essentially, I don't feel anxiety
我确实不焦虑。
I don't.
而且从来没焦虑过。
And never have.
那你主要体验到的情绪是什么？
So what are the primary emotions you experience?
比如，给我们讲讲你的一天。
Like, give us a day
如果一条龙追着我，我会感到害怕。
in the life of like a dragon was after me, I would feel fear.
拜托，别闹了。
Like, come on.
比如说……
Like...
或者有人拿刀追我。
Or if someone was chasing me with a knife.
就像，我，我……
Like, I I...
目前还没有发生过，所以那不一样。
One has yet as yet, and so that's different.
丹尼尔……
Daniel...
但总的来说，有一件事，当我遇到我妻子时，我说我不是神经质的。
But in general, I mean, one of the things when I met my wife, I said I'm not neurotic.
我就是不是。
I just am not.
我就是不……
I just don't...
我没有很多...
I don't have a lot of...
我不后悔很多事情。
I don't I don't regret a lot of things.
有一两件小事我后悔了。
There's one or two small things I regret.
没多生孩子是其中之一。
Not having more kids was one of them.
没再怀孕一次，因为我真的很喜欢怀孕的感觉。
Not being pregnant again, because I really like being pregnant.
我喜欢怀孕。
I love being pregnant.
我也喜欢怀孕。
I love being pregnant.
所以那是个遗憾。
So that's a regret.
但我的意思是，我也无所谓。
But I mean, I'm fine with it also.
但是……
But the...
至于焦虑嘛，我真的没时间管它。
But, yeah, anxiety, I just don't have time for it.
就是没时间。
I just don't.
我做不到。
I can't.
你一天下来感觉怎么样？
What are you feeling over the course of a day?
挺好的。
Good.
我只是……
I just...
挺好的。
Good.
大部分时间我都感觉不错。
I feel good mostly.
有些事情，一些小事会让我生气。
I mean, some things, you know, I get upset about some small things.
当我说话的时候……
And, you know, when I talk...
我的孩子如果为任何事不开心，我会为他们感到难过，通常会尽量帮他们。
My kids are upset about anything, I I feel I for them, and I try to help them mostly.
但我通常是个行动派的女人。
But I'm usually a can do lady.
就像，我好像……
Like, I'm like
好吧。
All right.
咱们怎么解决这个问题？
How are gonna solve this?
而且我觉得在很多方面，我可能把我妻子逼疯了，因为她一般来说是个更注重过程的人。
And I think in a lot of ways, I probably drive my wife crazy because she's, you know, she's a more processor person in general.
而我就像，对，没错。
And I'm I'm like, yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我们遇到问题了。
We got the problem.
来吧。
Let's go.
我总是这样，解决方案是什么？
Like, I always am like, what's the what's the solution?
让我们搞定它。
Let's fix it.
对。
And Mhmm.
所以我就是这种态度，一直都是。
And so I have that attitude, and I was always like that.
我觉得这很大程度上是因为我父亲的去世，我在做的这个系列里经常提到这件事。
And I think it's probably largely born out of my dad dying, which I talk about a lot in this series I do.
就是，我没有时间去焦虑。
Like, I don't have time for, like, anxiety.
我尊重有焦虑的人。
And I I respect people who have it.
我有很多朋友都饱受焦虑、担忧或神经质的困扰。
I have a lot of friends who have lots of anxiety or worry or neurosis.
我就是不……
I just don't...
我从来没有……
I have never...
我觉得我没有时间。
I I feel like I don't have time.
听起来有点奇怪，我……
And it sounds weird, and I...
我以前说过这个例子，但当你爸爸或父母在你很小的时候去世，你知道……
I've used this example before, but, you know, when your dad dies or your parent dies at a young age, you know what...
你知道结局在哪里。
You know where it ends.
你心里有数。
You have this idea.
最糟糕的事情已经发生过了，然后你还是要继续走下去。
And the worst thing ever happens to you, and then you keep going.
所以当事情发生时，我就是不会为它烦恼。
And so, you know, when something happens, I just can't get upset by it.
比如说，我不会说“哎呀，糟糕”。
Like, I can't go, oh, no.
不
Not
是那个。
that.
五岁。
Five.
就像，这
Like, it's
我当时两岁。
I was two.
两岁
Was two
在我这边。
on my side.
这是一种表达……
It's an expression...
有一本书叫《永远的丧失》，是关于这个话题的一本好书。
There's expression called the loss that is forever, which is a great book on this topic.
但这本书里提到的一点是，人们会变得非常能干。
But one of the things in this book is that people become highly functional.
比如，我就非常能干。
Like, I'm highly I'm highly functional.
我不知道还能怎么说。
I don't know how else to say it.
而且我和我的兄弟们都是这样。
And I am, and so are my brothers actually.
我们都挺正常的，挺好的。
We're very like, okay.
接下来，现在，修一下。
Next, now, fix.
我理解，这是一种面对那种成长经历所表现出的正常反应。
I get that as a functional response to the experience of growing up with that kinda...
我哥哥是急诊室医生。
My brother's an emergency room doctor.
我觉得我们都把这种经历转化成了，嗯...
Like, I think we all channeled it to let...
我们继续往下聊聊，谈谈进展吧。
Let's make some progress here.
好，我们继续向前，聊聊实际进展。
Let's make some progress.
我觉得你会有一种...
And I think it's just you have a sense of...
更深一层，你会对死亡有意识。是的。
On a more deeper level, you have a sense of of mortality Yeah.
从很早就有，所以你对时间有意识。
From a very early age, and therefore, you have a sense of time.
而且我觉得，时间这个主题，很多人其实并不真正理解，但我在某种程度上懂，这种理解深刻而且有帮助，虽说这懂的方式是最糟糕的。
And I I think time is something that people really don't understand, and I do in a way that's profound and helpful, actually, even though it was the worst way to find that out.
我马上就会把这一切换回去。
I I would take it back in a second.
宁愿焦虑。
And be anxious.
我宁愿死也不愿焦虑，也不想变成现在这样。
I'd rather have my death than be anxious than this.
那我还是选焦虑吧。
I'll take anxiety, yeah, instead.
所以，卡拉，正如你在《Burn Book》里写的那样，你近距离目睹了许多创业者从青涩的年轻人变成地球上最有权力的人。
So, Kara, as you as you wrote about in Burn Book, you had a very intimate view of a number of entrepreneurs who went from being awkward young people to the most powerful humans on the planet.
你也见证了科技从一个重要行业之一，变成我们时代最重要的经济、文化和社会力量。
You also watch tech emerge as, you know, one of many important industries to the, you know, number one economic, cultural, social force of our time.
从这些转变中，你看到了哪些关于权力的教训，无论是从个人层面还是结构层面？
What are the what are the lessons and power that you take from watching these transformations, both on the personal level and on a structural level?
嗯，有些人一开始就很糟糕，最后也很糟糕。
Well, you know, some people, you know, start off awful and remain awful.
但是……
But...
所以我见过他们中的很多人。
So I met a lot of them.
比如像马克·库班这样的人，一开始有点混蛋，但现在……
There was someone like Mark Cuban who was somewhat of a jerk at the start and now is...
他变得特别有趣，特别讨人喜欢。
Couldn't be more interesting and delightful.
所以人是会变的，但通常来说……
And so people change, but usually it's...
他们还是老样子。
They're like what they were like.
马克非常有钱，但他也还是那个马克·库班。
Mark is very wealthy and he couldn't be Mark Cuban.
再也找不到比他更可爱的人了。
Any lovelier.
他做不到。
He couldn't be.
他不是……
He's not...
他对人很有礼貌。
He's polite to people.
他不会……
He doesn't...
对人呼来喝去的。
Lord of people.
我只是……
I I just...
很多人都是这样的。
You know, a lot of people are like that.
萨提亚·纳德拉是另一个人。
Satya Nadella is another person.
他以前是微软的掌门人。
He used to head Microsoft.
他是个特别踏实的人。
He's a very grounded person.
里德·哈斯廷斯，经营过Netflix的那位。
Reed Hastings, who ran Netflix.
我们不是总意见一致，但他是个很接地气的人。
You know, we didn't always agree, but he was a normal person.
泰德·萨兰多斯，现在掌管Netflix。
Ted Sarandos, who runs it.
所以你看，当
So you look at when
你看这群人，就是那些把权力运用得当的人。对。
you look at this bunch, like, the the people who have handled power well Mhmm.
你觉得...
What what do you think...
比如说，我们能从中学到什么？
Like, what can we learn from that?
我们太关注那些负面的人了。对。
We're we're so focused on Yeah.
就是那些混蛋。
Like, the motherfuckers.
但其实还有另一种……
But there is this...
你经常指出这一点，我觉得这很有建设性。
And you you point this out often, which I think is is very productive.
权力本身并不是坏事。
Like, power isn't inherently a bad thing.
对。
No.
它可以用来做好事。
It can be used for good.
人们就是这样使用它的。
People are using it that way.
而我觉得，这里的一个
And here's what I think is a
坏处是，如果权力集中在一个地方，那你最终必然会遇到一个疯狂的国王。
bad thing is that if it if it coalesces in one place, then you inevitably end up with a mad king.
就像，你必然……
Like, you inevitably...
它根本就不会……
It just never...
文化、历史和虚构故事里到处都是这样。
I mean, you know, culture and history and, fiction is full of this.
是不是就是……
Is is the...
就是人们一开始天真无邪，最后却变得扭曲，比如像霍华德·休斯那样，最终精神出了问题。
Is how people start off innocent, you know, and end up sort of in this twisted way, whether it's like a Howard Hughes who went mental ill.
那显然是精神状态的衰退。
That was a mental decline, obviously.
他是个非常有意思的企业家。
Very interesting entrepreneur.
有些人就是那个样子。
Some people are the way they are.
就像我说的，他们以前就是那样，有点混蛋，现在还是混蛋。
Like I said, they were like that, kind of a jerk, and remain a jerk.
他们只是有钱的混蛋，而且别人还都同意他们。
They're just a jerk with a lot of money and people agreeing with them.
所以有些人会成长。
So some people develop.
而另一些人能抵抗那么多财富带来的负面影响。
And then others can resist the deleterious impact of that much wealth.
然后发生的事情就是，所有这些人都围着你转。
And what happens is all these people surround you.
他们一直在迎合你。
They're yes ing you.
你永远不知道他们打的什么算盘。
You never know their agenda.
而且他们因为某些原因，以为那些人是在对他们讲真话。
And they, for some reason, think that those people are being truthful with them.
然后他们还会把说真话的人隔离掉，基本上就是不跟他们来往了。
And they manage to isolate truthful people and eliminate them from their diet, essentially.
你对未来的科技大亨有什么建议？
What's your what's your advice to future tech moguls?
嗯，这挺有意思的，因为我儿子就是搞科技的。
Well, it's interesting because my son is tech focused.
他是机械工程师。
He's a he's a mechanical engineer.
他在密歇根大学。
He's at University of Michigan.
我觉得有一件事很重要，对于他来说也是……
And one of the things I thought was important and with with him is...
他有很多兴趣，除了科技之外也有别的兴趣，因为科技的范围太窄了。
And he has these interests, is have interests outside of tech because it's such a narrow range of things.
他显然在数学、化学和物理方面都很擅长，比我强多了。
I mean, he's obviously good at math and chemistry and physics and, you know, much better than I would ever be.
同时，他还有……
And at the same time, he has a...
我……
I...
我们想确保他对历史有兴趣，他还做玻璃设计。
We wanted to make sure he had an interest in history in, you know, he does glass design.
比如，任何不是……他动手能力很强，因为他是机械工程师，但对我们来说，很重要的一点是让他接触伦理、哲学这些方面的理念。
Like, anything that's not, he he does a lot of stuff with his hands because he's a mechanical engineer, but that was one important thing for us to to push on him in, like, the idea of ethics and philosophy and stuff like that.
我在《纽约时报》写专栏的时候，就写了这么一篇。
And I wrote a column in the New York Times right when I had that column there.
我之所以写那篇专栏，就是想把这些想法说出来，也就是为什么工程专业没有必修的伦理课程。对。
I wanted to do that for the reason I wanted to get some of these ideas out, which is why aren't there ethics courses required in Yep.
技术领域。
Technology.
我记得那大概是2018年，快十年前了。
I think it must be 2018 maybe, close to ten years ago.
我当时就在质疑这件事。
And I was I was, like, questioning it.
为什么没有呢？
Why isn't there?
为什么没有一门真正的伦理课程来讨论这个问题呢？
Why isn't there a real ethics course to talk about it?
因为人们拥有巨大的权力，他们应该接受关于历史的培训。对。
Because people have enormous power, and they should be trained about, again, history Yeah.
哲学、公共政策等等这些方面的培训。
Philosophy, public policy, and things like that.
我刚刚采访了西奥·贝克，那个在斯坦福上学的小伙子。
I just interviewed Theo Baker, this kid who was at Stanford.
这本书讲的是企业家工厂这类东西。
It's about this sort of the factory of entrepreneur.
这本书很棒。
It is a great book.
所谓的企业家工厂就是，风投们像招募大学篮球运动员一样冲进来，把他们拉去为自己所用，如果不行就把他们甩掉，就像体育界有时那样，除了赚钱或拿到好点子，什么都不在乎。
The factory of entrepreneurs there is these VCs rush in like you would college basketball players and grab them for their own uses and spit them out if it doesn't work, as they do in sports sometimes, and don't care about anything but making the money or getting the idea.
我觉得这造就了一些不完整的人，然后再堆上金钱和崇拜，结果就很糟糕。
And I think it it creates sort of half formed people, and then pile money and idolatry on them, and you get a really bad result.
你自己也找到了方法和途径，积累并运用了巨大的权力，我们相信是为了做好事。
You found ways to build and use a tremendous amount of power yourself, we believe, for good.
当你从权力的角度回看自己的经历时，你觉得你的权力之路归功于什么？
When you look at your own story through the lens of power, what do you attribute your your own path to power to?
哦，我不会说是权力。
Oh, I I would I wouldn't say a power.
我觉得，我就是会说话。
I say I say things.
我基本上拥有的是语言的力量和观点的影响力。
I have power of words and a power of opinion, essentially.
而这……
And that's...
我想这本身就是一种力量。
I guess that's a power in of itself.
而且这不算是一种权力……
And it's not a power...
我最近想过这个问题。
I thought about this recently.
我当时想……
I was like...
大家都说，哦，你完全不在乎。
Everyone's like, oh, you don't care at all.
你根本不关心。
You don't give a fuck.
我说，其实我非常关心。
I said, actually, give a big fuck.
我说，这两者差别特别大。
I said, there's there's a very big difference.
比如，我……
Like, I...
如果你什么都不在乎，那你就没有价值观。
If you don't give a fuck, you you have no values.
但我有。
But I do.
我觉得这可能会……
I think it could...
比如，其中一件事……
Like, one of the things...
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有人像你这样的……
Someone's like you...
比如有人说，还好你讨厌科技。
Like, someone said, well, it's good you hate tech.
我说，我热爱科技。
I said, I love tech.
我说，你不懂。
I said, you don't understand.
我热爱它。
I love it.
他们正在对科技做的事情，科技本可以为我们的社会带来巨大的好处，而且在历史上也一直如此。
And what they're doing to it is the things tech could do for our society are vast and have been over history.
所以我觉得我有责任让它以一种公平且对绝大多数人有益的方式被应用，同时警示其负面影响，并努力去减轻这些负面影响。
And so I feel like a responsibility for it to be deployed in a way that's fair and good for the vast majority of people and to warn of the negative effects, and to and to try to mitigate those negative effects.
所以我觉得现在这就是我的工作。
And so I feel like it's my job to do that now at this point.
就是……
That there's...
还要指出，只要技术没有被一小群有权势的人垄断，它本可以带来多少好处。
And to point out all the good things that could happen if only it didn't coalesce around a small group of powerful people.
我就是那种知道……
I mean, I'm I'm one of those people who know...
就是读历史、明白当权力集中在一小群人手里时，我们基本上就完了，因为他们……
Who reads history and understands when power coalesces around a small group of heterogeneous people, we're all fucked, essentially, because they're
这个规律很清楚。
The pattern is clear.
规律很清楚。
Pattern is clear.
就像，再比如说，你……
Like, again, you...
历史上一次又一次，每当这种情况出现，历史就常常走向崩溃。
Time and time again in history, that's where history falls apart as it often does.
所以我觉得，如果熟读历史、对历史有深入了解，你真的能很清楚地看清这里发生的一切。
And so I find, you know, so being well read and well versed in history, you can really understand what's happening here very clearly.
如果你曾经好奇过中世纪的尿液检测和鸡尾酒有什么共同点，那你来对地方了。
If you've ever wondered what diseases medieval pee tests and cocktails have in common, you're in the right place.
在我们的节目《这个播客会要你的命》中，我们探索疾病的奇妙世界，包括它们的历史、生物学，以及今天的影响。
On our show, This Podcast Will Kill You, we explore the wild world of diseases, their history, biology, and impact today.
疫苗在某种程度上是自身成功的受害者。
Vaccines are in part a victim of their own success.
它们在预防疾病和死亡方面太有效了，以至于我们都习以为常了。
They have been so effective in preventing disease and death that we take them for granted.
新剧集每周二在Exactly Right网络上线。
New episodes drop every Tuesday on the Exactly Right Network.
去听
Listen to
《这个播客会要你的命》吧，可以在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客，或者任何你收听播客的平台找到它。
this podcast will kill you on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我们在组织内部花了很多时间。
We spend a lot of time inside organizations.
我们看到职场中有很多人没有意识到或使用自己真正拥有的权力。
We see a lot of people in the workplace who don't recognize or use the power they actually have.
我同意你的看法。
I agree with you.
那从来不是你的问题。
That was never your problem.
对。
No.
你从很小的时候就开始占据空间了。
You took up space from a very young age.
非常
Very
小。
young.
你当年可是出了名的，靠一张嘴就进了《邮报》工作。
You famously talked your way into a job at the Post.
是啊。
I did.
还直接点名了约翰·麦克劳克林，嗯。
Called out John McLaughlin Mhmm.
比我早了整整几十年呢，可不是嘛。
Decades before me too Yep.
在当时可是件大事。
Was a thing.
你是怎么
How did you
觉得自己可以不经同意就抓女人的胸。
feel you should grab women's boobs without their permission.
我觉得那就是我的感觉。
That's my I feel like that's
这只是一个合理的
that's just a reasonable
一个理由。
A reason.
我觉得这只是政策。
I felt like policy.
我不
I don't
这么认为。
think so.
我不这么认为。
I don't think so.
人们都吓坏了。
People were scared.
我...
I...
我一直都是……
What I was always...
我是……
I'm...
我知道这听起来很傻。
I know it sounds dumb.
我不太擅长数学，但我很有数学头脑。
I was not very good at math, but I'm very mathematical.
然后我就想，好吧。
And I'm like, okay.
当你说出一句话的时候，实际的代价是什么？
What's the actual cost when you say something?
而且很多人……
And a lot of people are...
我们被训练得习惯性表现，尤其是女性，就像，哦，如果我说了什么，我就要付出代价。
We're trained to sort of behave, especially women particularly, like, oh, if I say something, I will pay this.
我就觉得，那简直是虚构的。
And I'm like, that's like fiction.
那简直……
That's that's...
其实你根本不会。
You don't actually.
其实你是不说的时候才付出代价。
You pay when you don't say something, actually.
所以我一直都特别算计，就像，说对的话到底要付出什么代价？
And so I was I was always very calculating of, like, what's the actual cost of saying the right thing?
而在那种情况下……
And in that...
在那些情况下，我想要一份工作。
In those cases, I wanted a job.
什么……
What...
我本来就没有工作。
I didn't have one.
我当时...
I was...
我难道是在冒险失去一份我本来就没有的工作吗？
Was I, like, risking not having a job that I didn't have?
所以我就想，那干嘛不试试？
So I was like, why not?
为什么不争取我想要的呢？
Why not ask for what I want?
比如，你可以说...
Like, you can say...
你可以表达你的想法，尤其是在这个国家，即使有很多乱七八糟的事情发生，也有很多人被压制，但相比其他地方，我们还是有选择的空间，比如...
You can declare things, especially in this country where even though there's all manner of nonsense going on and there's a lot of people being quashed, we still have a place where you can make choices compared to, like...
试试在叙利亚当个女人吧。
Try being a lady in Syria.
在这些严格的宗教国家里当女人，试试看吧。
Try being, you know, a woman in any of these, you know, in these strict religious countries.
对，去试试看。
Like, try that and see.
在那里是要付出真实代价的，而我觉得在这里没有这种代价。
There's real price to pay there, and I don't feel like I have that here.
你学会怎么做到那样了吗？
Did you learn how to do that?
没有。
No.
因为我妈妈不是那样的人。
Because my mom's not like that.
她是那种，怎么说呢……
She's like, so
弗朗西斯，我很好奇，因为你，我觉得你是站在这一边的。
I'm curious, Frances, for you because I I think you're on this side.
你处在卡拉那一边的光谱上。
You're in Kara's side of this spectrum.
我会……
I I would...
我回想过去。
I look back.
我一直这么说。
I've been saying it.
我甚至能记得我会走路时说过的话。
I I I could just have the memories of saying the things from when I was able to walk.
我是六个孩子中最小的，我会看到……
I was the youngest of six kids, and I would see
你得大声说出来。
You have to speak up.
我……
I...
我会……
And I would
要想有饭吃，你就得大声说出来。
To get fed, you would have to speak up.
但我确实觉得……
But I did feel...
我想我学到了，卡拉，当你刚才说你很在乎的时候，我记了下来……
I think I I learned, Kara, when you just said that you give a fuck, and I wrote down...
你是大写的那种在乎。
You give a capital f fuck.
看起来不是小写的在乎。
Seemed to me to not give a small f fuck.
就是说，你在大事上在乎，小事就不会烦到你。
Like, you give a fuck on the big thing, and then the little thing doesn't perturb you.
所以即使我被吼、被追或者怎么样，我也不在乎，因为我在乎的是大事。
So the fact that I would get screamed at or chased or so, I didn't care about that because I gave the capital f.
没错。
Exactly.
就是，我其实……
Like, I just...
我……我就是没想到会有这种代价。
I I didn't I just didn't think there was this, like, a cost.
我只是在把话说得很明白。
I just was, like, being very clear.
在这方面我头脑特别清楚。
I'm very clear headed in that regard.
我就想，好吧。
I'm like, okay.
如果我这么做会怎么样？
What's gonna happen if I do...
哦，什么也不会发生。
Oh, nothing.
其实什么都不会发生。
Like, nothing, actually.
而且你可以看到……
And, you know, you can watch...
尤其是男人，他们一直这么做。
Especially men do it all the time.
他们从来不承担后果。
Like, they never pay.
我就想，够了。
I'm like, That's it.
如果我稍微像他们那样一点会怎么样？
What if I behave a little bit more like that?
结果还真有用。
And it works.
确实有用，因为自信会带来结果。
It actually does work because confidence breeds, you know, result.
而且在我们……
And, you know, in our...
就你来说，我觉得你人好多了。
Your case, I think you're a lot nicer.
我，我……
I I...
你记得优步那事，但那是……
You remember the Uber stuff, but it was...
你当时很相信，人都是可以改变的。
You were a lot like, people are fixable.
我就觉得，对，他们不是。
I'm like, yeah, they aren't.
就像，不是那个人。
Like, not that person.
而且我很欣赏这一点。
And I appreciate that.
我确实很感激……
And I do appreciate...
我喜欢这种想法，但我基本上……
Like, I like the sentiment, but I pretty much...
我很擅长很快看透别人，但我会给他们改变的机会。
I'm pretty good at clocking people pretty quickly, but I will allow them to change.
我不会……
I don't...
如果他们变了，我会非常欢迎。
If they change, I'm very welcoming.
我觉得很多人，尤其是左派，对改变的人非常不宽容。
Like, I think a lot of people, especially on the left, are very intolerant of people that change.
就像，我……
Like, I I
没有足够的空间去进化。
start not enough room for evolution.
让我问你们两个一个非常女同的问题，我觉得对我们三个听众来说会挺有意思的。
Let me ask you both a very dyke question that I think is gonna be interesting to three of our listeners.
你们俩都是公开出柜、很自豪的女同。
You're both out and proud lesbians.
不
No
有人会好奇，她到底是不是？
one is wondering, is she or isn't she?
不是。
No.
但你们俩都做出了一些选择，这些选择是我们社会更希望由男性来做的，比如不请自来地占据空间，拥有健康的自我。
But you both make choices that our society would prefer that men make in terms of taking up space without permission, having healthy egos.
你们觉得这部分身份——这是问你们两位的——对你们对权力的体验有什么影响？
How do you think that part of your identity, this is for both of you, has impacted your experience of power?
比如说，在父权社会里，作为一个有点派头的女同是不是有帮助？
Like, is it helpful to be a lesbian with some swagger in a patriarchy?
当然是。
Why, yes.
确实是这样。
It is.
没错。
Indeed.
当然是。
Why, yes.
你先说吧。
Go ahead.
你先来。
You go first.
那我先说吧。
I will go first.
说一下情况吧。
Explain the situation.
所以我发现，那种“拽”的感觉，我不确定它在表演的情况下能不能行得通。
So I I find that, yeah, the swagger, which I don't know that it would work in a performative way.
不行。
No.
它必须
It has to
是真实的。
be real.
但是……
But the...
对自己感到非常自在。
Being deeply comfortable in our own skin
而且我从来不会因为自己的聪明才智而感到抱歉。
And it wouldn't occur it wouldn't occur to me to be apologetic about my intellect.
我从来不会因为自己的身体而感到抱歉。
It wouldn't occur to me to be apologetic about my body.
我不会……
It wouldn't...
我就是不会想到去道歉。
It just wouldn't occur to me to be apologetic.
而我们其他人每天都在经历这种想法。
And It's occurring to the rest of us all day every day.
这挺有意思的。
It's interesting.
确实有很多人来找我说，你给了我勇气去做……
I do get a lot of people coming up to me and saying, you give me courage to do...
去说一些话。
To say things.
因为你说出来了，所以我也能说出来，这我倒无所谓。
Because because you say them, then I can say them, which I'm fine with.
我……
I'm I'm...
那挺好的。
That's great.
我觉得更多是出于……
I think it's more out of...
我觉得我就是这样。
I think I'm like this.
这是我的……
It's my...
这是我的……
You know, it's my...
这不是我需要去考虑的事情。
It's not something that I have to think about.
这只是一个本能反应。
It's just a natural instinct.
我真的……
I I really...
听起来有点傻。
It sounds dumb.
比如，有人就对我说，哎，你真是太看得起自己了。
Like, someone someone was like, oh, you really think a lot of yourself.
我说，对啊。
I said, I do.
我就是很棒啊。
I'm fantastic.
我都不知道该怎么说好了。
Like, I don't know what to tell you.
拜托，别这样嘛。
Like, come on.
你看看我这一路走来的经历就知道了。
Like, look at the history here.
饶了我吧。
Give me a break.
看看这些过往的成绩。
Look at the track record.
看看这些过往的成绩。
Look at track record.
所以……
So...
然后这人就说，嗯，我觉得这太自夸了。
And this person was like, well, I think that's, you know, I think that's very boastful.
我就说，这是事实。
I go, it's factual.
我真的不知道该跟你说什么。
Like, I don't know what to tell you.
其实这……
It's actually...
而且这真的……
And so it's really...
挺有意思的。
It's funny.
但这违反了性别规范。
But that's a gender violation.
我觉得这正是让人觉得不舒服的地方。
Like, I think that's what makes people uncomfortable.
确实。
Does.
我以前经常说……
I used to tell...
当我遇到我现在的妻子，阿曼达的时候，她当时……
When I met my wife, my current wife, Amanda, she she was...
她也说过类似的话。
She said something like that.
她说，你看起来非常自信，作为一个人。
She goes, you seem very confident, like, as a person.
然后我说，我是马里布海滩豪宅级别的，所以我也没办法。
And I said, well, I am beachfront property in Malibu, so I don't know what to tell you.
她看着我，一副你逗我呢的表情。
And she looked at me like, you've got to be kidding.
我说，那是开玩笑的，不过其实是真的。
I go, that was a joke, but actually it's actual.
如果你好奇中世纪尿液测试和鸡尾酒有什么共同点，那你来对地方了。
If you've ever wondered what diseases medieval pee tests and cocktails have in common, you're in the right place.
欢迎收听我们的节目《这个播客会要了你的命》。
On our show, this podcast will kill you.
我们探索疾病的奇妙世界，包括它们的历史、生物学以及今天的影响。
We explore the wild world of diseases, their history, biology, and impact today.
疫苗某种程度上是它们自己成功的一个受害者。
Vaccines are in part a victim of their own success.
它们在预防疾病和死亡方面太有效了，以至于我们都觉得理所当然。
They have been so effective in preventing disease and death that we take them for granted.
每周二在Exactly Right Network都会更新新一期节目。
New episodes drop every Tuesday on the Exactly Right Network.
你可以在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或者任何你收听播客的平台上收听《This Podcast Will Kill You》。
Listen to this will kill you on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
作为榜样，你给了女性勇气，你让我们看到了这是一种什么样的状态。
As a role model, you are giving women courage, and you're you're allowing us to visualize what this looks like.
对于听众来说，你有没有什么建议，关于如何更加自信地展现自己？
Do you have any coaching for people listening on taking up more space?
你得想想自己现在处于人生的哪个阶段，明白自己的筹码是什么。
You have to think about where you are in your life and understand your leverage.
我经常跟别人这么说。
And I think I say that to people all the time.
比如，你的筹码是什么？
Like, what's your leverage?
最坏的情况是什么？
What's the worst case scenario?
如果你做自己想做的事会怎么样？
What what if you do what you wanna do?
我们到底要为什么付出代价？
What what what do we have to pay for things?
我觉得我们往往不会去想自己的行为要付出什么代价。
And I think we don't think about the payment of of the actions we take.
所以我总是说，好好想想你是否愿意付出那个代价。
And so I'm always like, think really hard about if you wanna pay that price.
全都是关于…
It's all...
就像买车一样。
It's like buying a car.
你愿意为那辆车付那么多钱吗？
Do you wanna pay that much for the car?
你知道如果不这样做，你得放弃什么吗？
Do you know what you'll have to give up if you don't otherwise?
所以我也会试着让人们搞清楚他们到底想要什么……
So I I also try to get people to get a very good sense of what they actually...
他们想怎么生活。
How they wanna live.
他们……
Where they...
是钱吗？
Is it money?
你想要钱吗？
Do you want money?
是……
Is it...
你想要这个吗？
Do you want this?
你想要那个吗？
Do you want that?
就是说，要搞清楚你的目标是什么。
Like, to understand what your goals are.
我觉得很多人其实不太清楚自己真正想达成什么目标。
And I think people don't have enough of their sense of their actual goals of what they wanna accomplish.
然后我会让他们再想想，最坏的情况会是什么样。
And then I like them to think about, again, what's the worst case scenario?
这对很多人来说真的很难做到。
And that is super hard for people to do.
他们……
They...
特别是女性，她们从来不去想自己有什么选择。
Especially women, they never think about their options.
而我呢，我会不停地想各种可能性。
And I I think about options continually.
比如我知道你们在当教练。
Like, I mean, I know you guys coach.
弗朗西斯，你在这方面给人做过指导。
Frances, you coach people on it.
其中一件非常有趣的事情……
One of the one of the most interesting things...
这个人弗朗西斯认识，但我不打算说具体是谁。
This is someone Frances knows, but I'm not gonna say who it is.
但是是一位女性，她想要……
But it was a woman who want...
她在硅谷总是排第二。
Who was always number two in Silicon Valley.
总是第二。
Always number two.
硅谷有很多这样的女性，总是当第二。
There's always a lot of number two ladies in Silicon Valley.
而且她们有……
And they had...
她们正准备辞职，然后她们和我……
They were leaving their job, and they and I...
她们说，你能过来一下吗？
And they said, can you come over?
我说，我其实不是职业顾问，不过没问题。
And I said, I'm not really a career counselor, but sure.
因为我对所有的工作机会都很了解，知道有哪些职位。
Because I know all the jobs and I know what's available.
然后她们……
And they...
这个故事我跟很多年轻女性讲过。
It's a story I've told a lot of young women.
然后我说……
And I said...
她说，我……
She said, I...
你想做什么？
What do wanna do?
她说，我想当CEO。
And she said, I wanna be a CEO.
好，太棒了。
Go, great.
那是个非常好的目标。
That's a really good goal.
明白吗？
Know?
你想当CEO，你知道自己的技能啊，其他方面啊，还有你的素质。
You wanna be a CEO, and and you know your skills and everything else and and your qualities.
然后我问，你想做什么？
And I said, what do you wanna do?
你想在哪个领域施展你的CEO才能？
Where do where do you wanna practice this CEO ship?
她说，嗯，有人给了我这些、这些、这些和这些。
And she said, well, I've been offered this, this, this, and this.
大概四五个选项，我当时想，哦，太好了。
Like, four or five options, which I was like, oh, great.
你想做什么？
What do you wanna what do you wanna do?
她说，嗯，这个挺有意思的。
And she said, well, this is interesting.
我说，我没问你那个。
I said, I didn't ask you that.
我没问你别人给了你哪些选择。
I didn't ask you what choices that you've been offered by people.
就像一个女人收到了六个求婚，然后……
Like, it's like a woman who got six, you know, marriage offers that...
她只根据收到的求婚来判断自己。
You're only judged by the offers that come in.
我就问，你想干什么？
I said, what do you wanna do?
她回答，想结婚呗？
And she said, wanna marry?
没错。
Exactly.
然后她就说，那就选这个吧。
And she was like, well, this.
我就说，不对。
And I was like, no.
不对。
No.
那是别人给你的选择。
That was offered to you.
这完全是两码事。
That is a very different thing.
你并没有主动去找它。
You did not seek it out.
如果你得主动去找，那会是什么？
If you had to seek it out, what would it be?
然后她说，呃，这个还没人主动给我。
And she goes, well, well, that hasn't been offered to me.
就像……
Like...
然后我就想，哦，真有意思。
And I was like, oh, really interesting.
没人给你这个机会，所以它就不算是一个选择。
It hasn't been offered to you, so therefore there's not an option of it.
然后我说，这就是我经营职业生涯的方式。
And I said, here's how I conduct my career.
我在餐厅里，他们有鸡肉、猪肉或者牛排。
I'm in a restaurant and they have chicken, pork, or steak.
但我想要的是鸭肉。
And I want the duck.
她就会说，菜单上没有鸭肉。
And she's like, well, they don't have the duck on the menu.
我就说，菜单上明明有鸭肉。
And I said, oh, they have the fucking duck.
鸭肉就在后面放着呢。
The duck's in the back.
她还会说，可菜单上没有。
And she goes, well, it's not on the menu.
我就说，菜单上就是有。
I said, oh, it's on the menu.
哦，菜单上有。
Oh, it's on the menu.
就在...
It's on...
它就在那儿。
It's there.
他们确实有那道该死的鸭肉。
They have the fucking duck.
你点了鸭肉。
You asked for the duck.
然后她说，那万一没有呢？
And she goes, well, what if it's not there?
我说，那就去别家餐厅吧，真是的。
I said, then go to another fucking restaurant.
我也不知道该跟你说什么了。
I don't know what to tell you.
想吃鸭肉就点鸭肉呗。
If you want duck, have duck.
然后她就……
And she was...
她觉得我疯了。
She thought I was crazy.
我就说，吃鸭吧。
I was like, eat the duck.
然后我会给她发每一个，每一个……
And I would send her every every...
我知道。
I know.
我就说，吃鸭吧。
I was like, have the duck.
然后所以我总是给她发短信。
And and so I always text her.
她现在是CEO了。
She is the CEO now.
我就问，你吃鸭了吗？
I was like, did you eat the duck?
你吃鸭了吗？
Did you eat the duck?
你吃了吗？
You eat
我当时就说，你……
the I was like, you...
你得重新组织一下说法。
That you have to, like, reformulate.
而且我觉得，嗯，男人在这方面确实做得不错。
And I think I I do will say men do this well.
比如，我想要什么？
Like, what do I want?
非常好。
Very well.
他们很清楚自己想要什么。
They're very good at what they want.
想要什么？
What want?
我有三个儿子。
And I have three sons.
我一直在观察。
I watch it all the time.
我跟你说。
Let me tell you.
尤其是在……
Especially in in...
在有孩子之前，我不相信性别差异这回事，因为就连我四岁半的儿子，他都特别执着，而且非常……
I I didn't believe in gender dynamics until I had children because even the 4.5 year old, like, he is intent and, like, very much...
即使他们错了也是这样。
Even when they're wrong.
我懂。
I know.
我觉得……
I think...
卡拉，我想拿这个跟你验证一下。
And I wanna test this with you, Kara.
如果可以的话，我觉得你会整天到处给人做突击干预。
If you could, I feel like you would do drive by interventions with people all day long.
我确实会这么做。
I do them.
我……
I...
现在，就这样。
Right now There you go.
所有跟CBS有关的人都给我打过电话。
Everyone involved with CBS has called me.
之前是《华盛顿邮报》，他们就说，我们需要谈谈。
And before it was the Washington Post, they're like, we need to talk.
真的，很多人都来找我咨询职业方面的事。
Like, I have so many people coming to me for career.
我都可以开个……
I should have a...
当时《纽约时报》要做我的专访，那篇报道写得也太好了，他们跟我说，听说你还有个副业，是职业顾问，还收费的。
When they were doing a profile in the New York Times, which was far too nice, they they said, we hear you have a side business as a career consultant that you're being paid for.
我就觉得，付费？
I'm like, paid for?
只是。
Only.
如果
If
只是。
only.
今天早上我还和一个人喝了杯咖啡，他想听听我的建议。
This morning, I had a coffee with someone and wanted advice.
就像，又比如说…
Like, again, it...
我确实…
Like, I do...
对。
Yes.
我经常这么做。
I do it all the time.
而且我觉得很…
And I feel very...
尤其是对方是女性的时候，我觉得很有必要这么做。
Especially when they're women, I feel the need to do it.
现在媒体行业这么不景气，他们就会问：那个做媒体创业的女性是谁？
And now with the media being in such crisis, they're like, who's the lady who did the media entrepreneurship?
我得跟她聊聊。
I need to talk to her.
我通常会尽量在送我女儿上学后，至少花一分钟时间回复他们，因为我觉得这样比较公平。
And I tend to try to take at least a minute after I drop my daughter off at school to give them a minute because I think it's fair.
因为我有很多很棒的导师，比如沃尔特·莫斯伯格和其他很多人。
Because I had a lot of great mentors like Walt Mossberg and many others.
而且……
And...
但现在有点过度了。
But now it's getting a little much.
老实说，
I'll be honest with
卡拉，我们有很多女性听众。
Kara, we have a lot a lot of women listen to this show.
那你能把你的一些私人建议公开一下吗？就是在这种环境下怎么建立出色的职业生涯。
So will you make some some of your private advice public on building a terrific career in this climate?
嗯，我觉得一个是要敢于冒险。
Well, I think one is be risk taking.
我觉得敢于冒险真的很重要，要冒那些经过计算的风险，但我觉得人们太保守了。
I think being a risk taker is a really important thing and make calculated risks, but I think people are too safe.
我觉得我们从小就被教导要太保守。
I think we're trained to be too safe.
所以别保守。
And so don't be safe.
别……
Don't...
没有……
There's no...
而且顺便说一句，根本没有什么安全可言。
And there is no safety, by the way.
就像，我的意思是，如果你不……他们就会来抓你。
Like, I'm like, they'll come and get you if you don't have...
另一件事，就是……
The other and the other thing is under...
第二点是了解你自己是什么样的人，了解你……
Second thing is understanding the person you are and what you're...
如果你害羞或者……
If you're shy or...
我不害羞，但如果你害羞的话，你得知道自己的优点是什么，你……
I'm not shy, but if you are, you have to know what your attributes are and what you're...
你的特点是什么。
What you are.
我意识到的一件事是，我真的是个很……
And one of the things I recognize is I was a really...
我开玩笑说，我是个很糟糕的员工。
As I joke about this, a bad employee.
我不擅长当员工……
I wasn't good at being an employ...
我不……
I wasn't...
我不愿意排队。
I wouldn't get in line.
我就会觉得……
I would just like...
我会想，我不行。
I'd be like, I can't.
我做不到。
I can't do it.
我不能排队。
I can't get in line.
而且我……
And and I...
把自己放在不舒服的处境里是不好的。
And to put yourself in situations where you're not comfortable is a bad thing.
所以给别人打工对我来说不是好事。
So me working for people is not a good thing for me.
而且顺便说，这对他们也不好。
And it's not good for them, by the way.
我不是……
I'm not...
我不认为做个差劲的员工是什么好事。
I I don't think that's a great thing to be as a bad employee.
而且我还……
I also...
我觉得一旦你开始抱怨，我就很讨厌那样。
I think once you spend your time griping, I hate that.
就像，我讨厌自己开始觉得‘哎呀，我讨厌这个地方’的时候。
Like, I hate when I start to be like, oh, I hate this place.
一旦出现那种情况，我就停下来，然后离开。
The minute that happens, I stop and I leave.
你得明白自己是谁，想要什么。
You have to understand who you are and what you want.
而且我不……
And I don't...
我觉得很多人并不……
I think a lot of people do not...
就像我在那部纪录片里说的，他们不知道自己想要什么。
As I said with that documentary, they don't know what they want.
他们从来不问自己，就这样换了一份又一份工作，卷入某件事里，从不思考我为什么要做这个？
They never ask that you go from job to job and you roll into one thing, and you never think, why am I doing this?
我喜欢吗？
Do I like it?
最后我要说的，是借鉴了史蒂夫·乔布斯在斯坦福的那次演讲，那是我职业生涯的北极星，我觉得那是关于职业和人生最精彩的演讲之一，太棒了，而且他当时身体状况时好时坏。
And the last thing I do, and I take this cue from Steve Jobs, that speech he gave at Stanford, which is my north star of a speech, one of the finest speeches about career and life, I think, was amazing, and he was sort of between illnesses.
其中让我特别感动的一点是，他真的清晰地表达出了……
And one of the things that I thought was so moving was that he he really did articulate that...
他说死亡是生命最伟大的发明，因为它会……
He said death is the greatest invention of life because it it...
他……
He...
那是他的动力，也是……
That was his motivation, and it was also...
也是我的动力。
Has been mine.
不一定……
It doesn't have...
那不一定非要是你的动力。
That doesn't have to be your motivation.
但如果我有很多天都在说不，早上醒来不想去，那样的话，我就离开。
But, you know, if I have too many days where I say no, where I wake up and I don't wanna be there and I say no, I get out.
就像，那是……
Like, that's...
就像，我以为那是……
Like, I thought that was...
往往都很干脆。
So often clean.
是的。
It is.
而且你会发现，当你处在……的时候，很难做到这一点。
And you're like and it's hard to do that when you're in a...
特别是当你身处高位，或者大家认为非常好的工作时。
Especially when you're in a high level or what people consider a really good job.
比如，我曾在《纽约时报》工作，或者写专栏。
Like, I was at the New York Times or in a column.
我就是不想再做下去了。
I just didn't wanna do it anymore.
然后每一个……
And every...
有人就会说，你难道要离开《纽约时报》吗？
One person was like, you don't leave New York Times?
我说，是的，你会走的。
I go, yes, you do.
你知道吗？
Like, you know?
而且我很喜欢他们。
And I like them.
我觉得他们都很好。
I think they were great.
我在那里度过了很美好的时光，但我……
I had a great thing there, but I...
然后我就觉得，我特别害怕做这件事。
Then I was like, I I dreaded doing it.
所以我觉得你必须得……
And so I think that you have to
恐惧是一个非常强烈的信号。
Dread is a very powerful indicator.
就像，哎，我做不了这个。
It's like, oh, I can't do this.
我都不...
I don't...
我宁愿去看《法律与秩序》。
I'd rather watch law and order.
你懂吗？
You know?
这总是个信号。
That's always a sign.
如果我宁愿看《法律与秩序》，那就说明...
If I'd rather watch law and order, it's like...
如果你的选择更少，而我...
And if you have fewer choices, which I...
比如，我跟一些在《60分钟》节目工作的人聊过，他们离不开那里。
Like, I was talking to some people that are at sixty minutes, and they can't leave.
没有别的地方可以去。
There's nowhere else to go.
这就是问题所在。
Like, that's the issue.
然后我就说，听着。
And I'm like, listen.
坐下……
Sit...
就像，我可以跟你说，甩手走人不干了，但是……
Like, I could tell you just flounce out and quit, but it's...
现在没有地方可去。
There's nowhere to go right now.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
先韬光养晦，磨练技能，然后看看能去哪里。
Bide your time, hone your skills, and then figure out where you can go.
我，我不建议那样做……
Like, I I don't advise...
因为他们会说，我想像你一样直接甩手走人。
Because they're like, I wanna be like you on a flounce out.
我说，别甩手走人。
I'm like, don't flounce.
我有甩手走人的资本。
I have flounce power.
你没有那个资本。
You do not have flounce power.
我可以甩手走人。
I can flounce.
我能这么做。
I can do it.
对我来说没有代价，而且影响很小。
There's no price for me, and it's very minor.
在这里代价是很小的。
The price is minor here.
对你来说，代价就大了，而且还有……
For you, it's big, and there's...
你会被困住的。
You'll be stuck.
所以，离开某个地方和应对这件事的时候要非常小心，但要理解你想要离开的那种心情。
And so be very careful about how you exit somewhere and how you handle it, but understand your feeling of wanting to go.
我觉得那……
And I think that's...
我想……
I think...
做这件事的时候要非常有策略。
Just be very strategic about how you do that.
而且我觉得，我觉得……
And I think, you know, I think...
但如果你有那种感觉，你就必须离开。
But you have to leave if you feel that way.
对我来说……
That to me...
我们离开得还不够多。
We don't do leaving enough.
我不知道你是什么感觉。
I don't know how you feel.
我们最近注意到一件事，就是那些决定离开的人，在他们离开前有三十天或六十天的缓冲期，是的。
One of the things we've noticed recently is that people who have decided to leave and then they have, like, a thirty or a sixty day window before they leave Mhmm.
他们会变成一种不可思议的自己。
Are an unfreaking believable version of themselves.
一个非常出色的自己。
An amazing version of themselves.
所以我记得谢丽尔·桑德伯格说过，不要在离开之前就离开。
So I remember Sheryl Sandberg when she said, don't leave before you leave.
所以我们开玩笑说，提前离开，在你准备离开之前。
And so we've been joking, leave before you're gonna...
就像，在你离开之前先离开，这样就能...
Like, leave before you're leaving so that...
让我们看看那个版本的你。
Let's see that version of you.
就像，你知道自己要离开的那六十天里的那种状态，那时候去哪了？
Like, the version in that sixty days when you know you're leaving, where was that?
确实是。
It is.
那种状态简直不可思议。
It's like, was unbelievable.
真的不可思议。
It's unbelievable.
因为你可以让自己...
Because you can make yourself...
在很多方面，你都可以让自己过得很痛苦。
Like, in a lot of ways, you can make yourself miserable.
而且在某种程度上，我并不是……
And on some level, I don't...
比如有人说，噢，你真是坚强。
Like, someone's like, oh, you're so tough.
我觉得，问题在我自己，而不是老板。
I'm like, I'm the person that's the problem, not the boss.
不是……
It's not the...
如果这份工作不适合你，就别怪工作本身。
If it's not the job for you, like, don't blame the job.
比如，这个地方工作环境太差了。
Like, this is a terrible place to work.
我说，那你就走啊。
I'm like, then leave.
就是说，我……
Like, I...
你想要什么呢？
What do you want?
就比如，哦，他们会解决的。
Like, oh, they're gonna fix it.
我就觉得，他们才不会呢。
I'm like, they're not.
这就是他们喜欢的状态。
This is how they like it.
这就是他们希望这个地方变成的样子。
This is how they want this place to be.
如果你不喜欢，那就赶紧走吧。
And if you don't like it, get the hell out.
我真的不知道该怎么跟你说了。
Like, I I don't know what to tell you.
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