The new era of AI-powered protein design | César Ramírez-Sarmiento

你正在收听《TED每日演讲》，每天为你带来新想法，激发你的好奇心。

You're listening to TED Talks daily where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day.

我是你的主持人，伊莉丝·胡。

I'm your host, Elise Hu.

今天的演讲来自我们2025年新推出的TED研究员影片，专为《TED每日演讲》的听众重新制作成播客形式。

Today's talk is part of our new 2025 TED Fellows films adapted for podcasts just for our TED Talks daily listeners.

在2025年剩下的日子里，以及进入新的一年，我们会在某些周五陆续推出这些特别节目，带你认识我们杰出的研究员们。

We'll be releasing these special episodes showcasing our amazing fellows on certain Fridays throughout the rest of 2025 and into the new year.

TED研究员项目支持着一群全球创新者，我们非常期待与你分享他们的成果。

The TED Fellows program supports a network of global innovators, and we are so excited to share their work with you.

今天，我们想请你认识一位蛋白质工程师、设计师，也是TED研究员——塞萨尔·拉米雷斯-萨米恩托。

Today, we'd love for you to meet protein engineer, designer, and TED Fellow Cesar Ramirez-Sarmiento.

如果我们能从自然界最基本的生物构件——蛋白质入手，重新设计它们，来应对人类面临的重大挑战，会怎样？

What if we could take one of nature's fundamental biological building blocks, proteins, and redesign them to tackle some of humanity's biggest challenges?

塞萨尔的实验室位于智利圣地亚哥，他们利用人工智能设计新型蛋白质，既可用于治疗，也能解决环境问题。

Ceasar's lab is based in Santiago, Chile, and it uses AI to design new proteins with both therapeutic and environmental applications.

他将蛋白质设计与人工智能结合的创新方式，正说明拉丁美洲为何在这一领域迅速崛起，也让我们看到酶在分解PET塑料、开发新型医疗方案等方面的巨大潜力。

His creative approach to protein design and AI shows why Latin America is emerging as such a leader in this space and why we should look to enzymes for everything from breaking down PET plastics to developing new health care solutions.

听完Cesar的分享后，别走开，接下来是他与TED研究员项目总监莉莉·詹姆斯·奥尔德斯的对话。

After we hear from Ceesar, stick around for his conversation with TED Fellow's program director, Lily James Olds.

马上开始。

It's coming up.

我叫塞萨尔·拉米雷斯-萨米恩托。

My name is Ceesar Ramirasarmiento.

我住在智利圣地亚哥。

I'm based in Santiago, Chile.

我是一名蛋白质工程师和设计师。

I'm a protein engineer and designer.

蛋白质是由氨基酸组成的大型分子。

Proteins are macromolecules which are composed of amino acids.

它们由二十种不同的氨基酸构成。

They are made of 20 different types of amino acids.

它们用字母来表示。

They are represented by letters.

你可以把氨基酸想象成一套字母表，这些氨基酸就像串在绳子上的珠子，一个接一个连在一起。

So you can imagine an alphabet of amino acids, and you can imagine that these amino acids are connected to each other like beads on a string.

这样它们就能形成各种不同的空间结构。

And so that allows for them to come together in different geometries.

于是就有了特定的形状。

And so they get a shape.

它们会折叠成三维结构，从而决定各自的功能。

They get a three-dimensional structure that allows for them to dictate their functions.

细胞里有成千上万种不同的蛋白质，每种形状都对应不同的生物功能。

We have many different proteins with many different shapes that actually perform different biological functions in cells.

它们帮助我们消化食物。

They allow us to digest food.

它们还能运输离子，让电信号在神经元中传递。

They allow us to transport ions for electrical signals to go through neurons.

它们能调控不同基因的表达，从而影响我们细胞和身体的反应。

They allow for the expression of different genes that regulate how our cells or how our body responds.

蛋白质是细胞里的主力军。

Proteins are the workhorse of cells.

它们就像细胞的工具箱，帮细胞完成各种任务。

They are like a toolbox for cells to do whatever they have to do.

蛋白质已经演化了数百万年，专门适应细胞生命所需的各种功能。

Proteins have been evolving for millions of years for performing functions that are important for cellular life.

大自然早已将它们打磨得恰到好处，能完美执行当前的任务。

They have been perfected by nature to do what they do now.

但面对人类迫切的问题，比如塑料污染、健康相关的二氧化碳问题，我们希望把它们改进得更好。

But when it comes to problems that are important for humankind, like plastic contamination, carbon dioxide problems in health, we want to make them better.

我们等不了上千年才等到自然解决。

We just don't have a thousand years to wait for it.

我们必须现在就行动。

We have to do it now.

简单来说，蛋白质工程就是问自己：能不能改变蛋白质的氨基酸组成，从而提升它的某些特性。

Protein engineering, in short, it's asking yourself if you can change the amino acid composition of your protein, and by doing so, if you can get improvements in some properties of that protein.

我们可以用各种工具来实现这一点。

We can use different tools for that.

比如实验方法。

We can use experimental approaches.

也可以用计算方法。

We can use computational approaches.

总的来说，它们都是通过修改构成蛋白质的氨基酸序列，来优化这些特性。

But overall, what they are doing is that they are changing this sequence of amino acids that compose proteins in order to improve these properties.

这相当于给自然加了一把力。

This is like giving nature a little push.

而人工智能正是在这里派上用场。

And that's where the use of artificial intelligence comes in.

过去五年里，人工智能在设计蛋白质方面取得了突破，有些设计是我们以前根本想不到的。

In the last five years, we have seen breakthroughs in artificial intelligence for designing proteins that we never imagined.

它们让我们能够设计出全新的蛋白质结构和形状，赋予它们专门的功能来解决各种问题。

They allow us for designing new protein structures, new protein shapes that encode bespoke functions for solving all types of problems.

在人工智能出现之前，蛋白质设计的成功率只有1%左右，也就是说，如果你设计了100种不同序列的蛋白质，可能只有一款能起作用。

Before the advent of AI, the success rate for protein design was about 1% or less, which means if you created a 100 proteins with a 100 different sequences, maybe one of them will work.

现在有了人工智能，成功率提升到了10%到20%。

Now with the advent of AI, we see about 10 to 20%.

所以，如果你现在用电脑生成了100个序列，大约有20个会真正具备你想要的活性。

So if you now take your 100 sequences that you generated in the computer, about 20 of them will actually have the desired activity.

其中一些甚至比你研究的原始蛋白质序列表现得还要好。

And some of them will be actually better than the input sequences of the protein of interest that you're working with.

小时候，我对艺术感兴趣，因为艺术提供了一个发挥创意的空间。

When I was a kid, I was interested in arts because it was allowing for a space for creativity.

但上了高中后，我选择了科学，因为我觉得，对我个人而言，投身科学能为社会带来更大的价值。

But then, when I was in high school, I opted for science because I I saw that I could provide much more for the benefit of society by pursuing science instead of arts, in my case.

但我认为，无论是艺术还是科学，本质上都是创意的乐园。

But I think both disciplines are actually playgrounds for creativity.

在科学领域，人工智能是帮助我们提出创造性解决方案的又一工具。

For science, artificial intelligence is another tool for coming with creative solutions for different problems.

我理想中的蛋白质工程未来，是拉丁美洲能涌现出一批强大的蛋白质工程师和设计师，专门解决我们各自国家特有的问题。

My dream future for protein engineering is that we have a strong community of protein engineers and designers in Latin America so that we can create solutions for problems that are specific to our countries.

我们通常并不完全了解世界各地在蛋白质工程与设计中应用人工智能的最新进展。

We are usually not fully aware of the advances of use of artificial intelligence for protein engineering and design that is happening in other parts of the world.

但与此同时，有很多人对设计新蛋白质充满兴趣。

But at the same time, we have many people that are interested in creating new proteins.

所以在智利，我们的想法是聚集起足够多的科研人员，一起来攻克这些难题。

And so the idea of working in Chile is that we can actually create a critical mass of scientists that can work on these problems.

我们目前正在探索如何培养下一代拉丁美洲科学家，让他们掌握这些工具的使用方法。

We are actually working on how to educate the next generation of scientists from Latin America on how to use these tools.

我一直相信，我们必须团结起来，去做一些单打独斗无法实现的更大的事。

I always had this belief that we had to come together to try to do something bigger than what we can do as individuals.

如果我们能设想出自然界中从未出现过的全新分子结构。

If We can think about other compositions of nature that we haven't seen before.

在蛋白质领域，我们可以探索自然界尚未涉足的全新领域。

In the case of proteins, we can navigate untapped terrain that nature hasn't explored yet.

我们可以深入研究各种蛋白质结构和序列的可能空间，看看哪些组合能真正解决人类最紧迫的问题。

We can navigate through those landscapes of different protein structures, different protein sequence, and see whether those spaces that contain these protein structures and sequences are actually good for resolving the issues that are the most pressing problems for humankind.

接下来是凯撒与TED研究员项目总监莉莉·詹姆斯·奥尔德斯的特别对话，广告后马上为您呈现。

And now a special conversation between Ceasar and TED Fellows program director, Lily James Olds, coming up right after the break.

嗨，凯撒。

Hi, Cesar.

嘿。

Hey.

最近怎么样？

How are you doing?

欢迎。

Welcome.

谢谢。

Thanks.

今天能和你聊天，我特别兴奋。

I'm so excited to talk to you today.

我也是。

Me too.

今天特别想聊聊各种不同的事情。

Very excited to talk about different things today.

没错。

Yeah.

等等。

Wait.

你能告诉我你现在在哪儿吗？

Can you tell me where are you right now?

好的。

Yeah.

我在肯塔基州的路易斯维尔。

I'm in Louisville in Kentucky.

我刚参加了四天的‘ louder than life ’音乐节，我最爱的几支金属乐队都在那儿演了。

I've been four days into a festival called Louder Than Life in which one of my favorite metal bands have played.

是啊。

So yeah.

太棒了。

Incredible.

到目前为止，最让你印象深刻的是什么？

What's been the highlight so far?

对我来说，最震撼的是 Sleep Token 的演出。

For me, personally, it was Sleep Token.

我以前在德国看过他们一次，这次又有机会再看。

I've seen them live once before in Germany and now I had the chance to see them again.

他们今年发了新专辑，演出确实很赞。

They released a new album this year and they have yeah.

现在他们的粉丝群体可大了。

They have a huge fan base right now.

他们现在火得不得了，现场演出特别带感。

They're exploding and they're like a really cool show to see.

老兄，Sleep Token 的这些照片简直太震撼了。

Dude, these images from Sleep Token look insane.

我正在看这些照片。

I'm looking at the photos.

我完全被吸引住了。

I'm like fascinated.

是的。

Yeah.

他们真的很棒。

They're good.

明白了。

Okay.

我得去听听看。

I gotta listen.

这简直太棒了。

This is like Yeah.

真的很震撼。

Pretty epic.

没错。

Yeah.

说到Sleep Token，特别有意思的是，他们把各种音乐风格融合成一个整体。

I mean, something that is very interesting about Sleep Token is that they combine different music genres into like one piece.

对吧？

Right?

他们把嘻哈、爵士、灵魂乐、R&B、金属，还有devcore全都混在一起。

They combine from like hip hop and jazz and soul and R and B and metal and devcore.

就像是把所有元素都揉进了一首歌里。

It's like everything just mixed into one like piece of music.

我觉得我们在实验室里做的工作，还有和国内以及国外同事的合作，也类似——我们都努力把不同领域的东西结合起来，打破常规，做些以前没做过的事。以前我们只专注于研究蛋白质并分析它们。

And I think of the work that we do in the lab and our collaborations with other people from my country and also from other countries as something similar that we're trying to put a lot of effort into like combining different things to think out of the box and do something different from what we have done in the past, which has been only learning about proteins and then characterizing them.

现在我们更多在想，要是把这种蛋白质放进细胞里，再做我们以前只针对蛋白质做的那些实验，会怎么样呢？

Now we're thinking more about, oh, what if we, like, put this protein in a cell and then we do whatever we were thinking about doing with just proteins.

现在我们改用活细胞来做，而且已经提供了相应的解决方案。

Now we do it with, like, living cells, and we provide a solution for that.

这太厉害了。

That's amazing.

你提到用人工智能来设计蛋白质，就像你所说的，给自然推一把，加快整个过程，我很喜欢这个说法。

So you talk about how using AI for protein engineering is like, I like how you say, giving nature a little push, you know, speeding up the process.

你能举一两个具体的例子吗？比如AI设计的蛋白质是怎么帮助解决实际问题的？产生了什么影响？

Can you give me one or two concrete examples where AI engineered proteins are being used to help solve a problem and what impact they're having?

是的。

Yeah.

实际上，我和智利的一位同事一直在思考，怎么设计出新的蛋白质，让它们能在采矿环境的极端条件下存活，用来做生物浸出——也就是用生物技术来回收各种矿物。

Actually, and one of the things that we were thinking about a lot with one of my colleagues in Chile is about how to create new proteins to put them into cells that are very resilient to conditions in mining so that we can use them for bio leaching, which is like trying to recover different minerals using biotechnological solutions.

这些正是我们想做的：把看似完全不相关的科研方向融合在一起，然后看看能不能行得通。

Those are kind of the things that it's like try to combine very disparate scientific endeavors into one piece and then try to see if that works or not.

我觉得目前影响最明显的一个应用，是消除环境中的污染物，或者开发相关技术来实现这一点。

I think one of the cases that we're seeing a lot of impact right now is in the elimination of pollutants from the environment or trying to develop technologies to do so.

现在有几家公司在研究如何降解塑料，这些能催化化学反应的蛋白质叫做酶。

And so there's a few companies that are working now on degrading plastic and these proteins that perform chemical reactions are called enzymes.

酶的设计本身就是一个非常棘手的问题，但法国有一家公司，中国也有一家，都在用人工智能开发能分解不同种类塑料的新型酶。

And enzyme design is a problem of its own that is like very difficult to tackle, but there's one company in France and there's another company in China that are working on developing with the use of AI different enzymes that can actually degrade different types of plastics.

他们的想法是，把降解后的塑料当作原料，重新制造新的塑料。

And the idea behind it is that we are then using that plastic as a feedstock for creating new plastic afterwards.

这些酶会把塑料分解成小分子，然后这些小分子就能用来生产新的塑料。

So the enzymes, what they will do is they will decompose the plastic into small molecules that you can use them for making new plastic afterwards.

理想情况下，这会形成一个无限循环的回收过程，对人类来说将意义重大。

In the best scenario, it will be like an infinite recycling process and that will be like great for humanity.

那具体是怎么运作的呢？

And how does it work exactly?

你能再详细说说吗？

Can you tell us a few more details?

生物信息是从基因传递的，而基因存在于所有活细胞的基因组中。

So biologically information goes from gene, which is on any living cell's genome.

基因就是DNA，它编码蛋白质。

So that's DNA and DNA encodes proteins.

所以这个过程是从DNA到蛋白质。

So we go from DNA to proteins.

而在计算机里，你是反过来，从蛋白质推回DNA。

What you do in the computer is that you go from protein back to DNA.

不同的情况对应着不同的处理方法。

So you have different scenarios, and for them you have different ways of working with them.

你可以用蛋白质的氨基酸序列数据来训练人工智能模型，也可以用蛋白质的结构数据来训练，或者两者一起用。

And so the idea is that you can train artificial intelligence models on this information about the sequence of a protein, so the sequence of amino acids that compose a protein, or you can train models on the structures of proteins, or you can train them on both.

经过几天甚至几周的计算，计算机就会生成一组新的序列，这些序列能编码出目标结构或特定功能。

And then in the computer after like a few days or weeks of work, will have a set of different sequences that will encode these structures or these different printing functions.

之后，你会把这些蛋白质设计反向转化回DNA序列，也就是另一种‘字母表’的形式。

And then what you do after that is that you backtrack those designs from protein information into DNA information, so another form of alphabet.

然后你从这些公司购买合成好的基因，把它们放进细菌或动物细胞里，让蛋白质表达出来，再在实验室里进行测试。

And then you purchase those genes from these companies that synthesize your genes and then put them into different bacterial or animal cells for expression of these proteins and then testing them out in the lab.

希望之后能在真实场景中测试，比如在中试工厂里测试塑料降解，或者在动物模型中验证如何治疗某种疾病。

And hopefully afterwards, will test them out in real cases scenarios such as pilot plant for plastic degradation or in animal models for testing for like how to cure a disease.

对我来说，这听起来太神奇、太未来了，因为我平时并不在实验室做这些。

That's so wild and futuristic to someone like me who is not doing this every day in a lab.

我想起我们之前聊过的事，凯撒，你说过自己受到蜗牛和自然过程的启发，然后把这些想法带进了实验室的工作里。

I'm thinking about a conversation we had before, Ceasar, where you spoke about kind of being inspired by snails and being inspired by natural processes and then putting that into your work in the lab.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这事儿发生在我小的时候，还挺有意思的。

That was kind of a funny thing that happened when I was younger.

那时候我大概八岁左右吧。

I think maybe I was like eight years old or something like that.

我妈妈以前在花园里用一些塑料做的花盆种植物，她说蜗牛把那些花盆咬穿了，我当时觉得这怎么可能，但这个念头一直留在我心里很久，我一直想，也许真有这种可能？后来我上大学时学生物化学，开始了解蛋白质和酶这些玩意儿，有一堂课讲酶是怎么催化各种化学反应的，一个朋友突然说，要是酶能分解塑料该多好，我当时就说，这根本不存在，可我根本不知道，那时候科学家其实已经在发现能分解塑料的酶了。

My mom, she had some like plastic pottery for plants that she was like growing in the garden and she said that the snails were eating through them and I was like there's no way that that can happen but the idea remained there for like a long time I was like thinking oh maybe it's possible but I just remembered that memory right and then when I was like in university I was actually learning about biochemistry like learning about like proteins and enzymes and all of these things and then we had a class about enzymes and how they perform like different chemical reactions and one friend of mine said oh what if they degrade plastics and I was like well that doesn't exist but little did I know that enzymes that could degrade plastics were being discovered.

第一个这样的酶是2003年左右发现的。

So the first one was like in 2003 or something like that.

后来我当上教授后，这个想法就成了我的研究课题。

So that turned into my research topic when I became a professor.

这算得上是个挺酷的起点故事吧。

So it's kind of a cool origin story, would call it.

是的。

Yeah.

我太喜欢这个故事了。

I love that so much.

我也记得小时候后院有蜗牛的事。

I remember that with snails in the backyard as well.

我想知道，在智利或者拉丁美洲，有没有什么特别突出的本地问题，你觉得蛋白质工程特别适合去解决？

I'm curious, is there a particular local challenge in Chile or Latin America that you think protein engineering is especially well suited to tackle?

是的，其实有好几个方向。

Yeah, I mean, there's a few.

我们有个规模很大的渔业，对吧？

So we have a huge fishing industry, right?

在捕捞某些甲壳类动物时，有很大一部分根本没法吃，最后都成了废弃物。

And that fishing industry for some of the crustaceans that we're like extracting from the sea, a lot of it's not consumable, a lot of it's waste.

而目前几乎所有回收这些甲壳类废弃物的技术，都依赖非常强烈的化学药剂。

And then almost all of the technologies for re utilizing those waste from crustaceans are typically treated with very harsh chemicals.

所以我们在尝试开发新的酶技术，目标是达到同样的效果——把废弃物转化成肥料或者其他可用的材料，但不用化学方法，而是用酶来完成这些化学反应，这样更环保，因为用的是生物手段。

And so trying to develop new technologies using enzymes for achieving the same result which is like treating these waste for creating fertilizers or creating other types of solutions that can be used afterwards, but instead of using chemicals, using enzymes that will perform the same chemical reactions, it will be environmentally friendly because you're using a biological mean for that.

我们和几位在智利的同事正在讨论，看看能不能推进这个方向。

We have been discussing with a few colleagues in Chile that we can try to pursue.

你现在最期待的是哪种新型蛋白质设计结构？为什么？你觉得它能带来什么改变？

And what's a new protein designer structure that you are really excited about right now and why and what will it help to change or make better do you think?

我特别看好克里斯·巴尔茨，另一位TED研究员，他创办的公司叫AI Progins。

Oh, I'm very excited about Chris Baltz, another TED Fellow, his company, AI Progins.

他公司正在研发的是一种极其微小的蛋白质，只由很少几个氨基酸组成。

And what they're developing in his company is that this very, very tiny proteins, very few amino acids.

对吧？

Right?

如果蛋白质太短，就没办法折叠成特定的结构。

When you make them too short, they don't fold into, like, a shape.

想象一下，就像一块地毯，你想把它折起来。

Imagine, like, if we had, like, a a piece of rug and you wanna fold it.

如果它太短，根本没法折。

If it's too short, you cannot fold it.

对吧？

Right?

但要是足够长，就能轻松折叠了。

But if you have like a piece that is long enough then you can fold it.

蛋白质也是会自我折叠的，他们做的这种极小的蛋白质恰恰能自己折叠成特定形状，而这种形状正好能匹配某些靶细胞上的蛋白质——这些蛋白质参与了各种疾病相关的细胞过程，从过敏反应到癌症治疗都可能用得上。

Proteins also fold upon themselves and so they're making these very very tiny proteins that actually fold upon themselves so they have a shape and that shape is complementary to different target cells that have proteins that are involving cellular processes that are related to different diseases that can go from like different allergic reactions to even like treatments for cancer.

所以他们的想法是开发这种极小的蛋白质，把它当作药物使用，这比研发那些不具备蛋白质同等功能的化学化合物要好得多。

So the idea is to develop these very, very tiny proteins that you can use as a pharmaceutical, as a drug, and that will be a better solution than developing different chemical compounds that do not offer the same capabilities that these proteins have.

我真的很期待看到他们接下来会做出什么成果。

So I'm really looking forward to see what they do with it.

从你这里了解到的这些进展，简直太令人惊叹了。

The advances that I've learned about from you are just so incredible.

我很好奇，你提到的这些例子中，人工智能在多大程度上提升了蛋白质设计的成功率？

I'm curious with all of these examples you're giving and how much AI is making protein design more successful.

你觉得未来三到五年，蛋白质设计领域会变成什么样？

Where do you see the field of protein design in three to five years from now?

也就是说，你认为哪些事情将来可能实现？

Like, what do you think will be possible?

你刚才已经提到一些了，但以你最乐观的想象，那个未来到底会是什么样子？

You've outlined a little bit of that, but, like, what does that future look like in your best imagination?

这是个很有意思的问题。

Yeah, that's an interesting question.

我现在看到很多进展，特别是在新型酶的开发上。

So, I think that I'm seeing a lot of advances right now in making new enzymes.

酶其实非常难设计。

Enzymes are very difficult to make.

它们的蛋白质表面有非常特定的位点。

They have very specific sites on the protein surface.

你可以想象蛋白质像个球体，表面有个小孔，这就是活性位点。

So if you imagine that you have, like, a sphere as a protein, then they have, like, a little hole on the surface that is called the active site.

化学反应只在这个位点发生，所以必须有特定的氨基酸，精确地排列在特定位置上。

And the chemical reaction actually happens in that site and that site alone, which means that there has to be very specific amino acids from your protein in very specific positions.

一年前我们用的方法，在酶设计上效果很差。

So the methods that we had like a year ago were like pretty bad at the enzyme design.

以前我们会找一个已知能做某件事的酶，比如能降解塑料的酶。

So before, we will take an enzyme that we know it has some activity for some thing that we wanted to do.

我们会优化它的序列，但从来不会改动它的整体结构。

Like, there's a lot of enzymes that do plastic degradation, so we will improve the sequence, but we will never change the structure.

但现在有很多方法能够做到这一点，所以我们现在可以设计出自然界从未出现过的全新酶结构，这让我们有机会从零开始构思全新的化学反应。

But nowadays, there's a lot of methods that actually can afford that, and so the idea is that you can create new structures that have never seen before in nature of enzymes, of new enzymes, and that allows for thinking about new chemical reactions that we can create from scratch.

这非常令人兴奋，我觉得这个领域正在飞速发展，朝着为全新化学反应设计酶的方向前进。

So that's very exciting, I think that the field is moving forward very fast towards developing these new enzymes for new chemical reactions.

我猜，包括我在内的很多人第一反应都会想：设计出自然界从未有过的蛋白质，会不会带来风险、危险或意想不到的后果？

I think the place that my mind and I'm sure many others go is like, are the risks and the dangers and unintended consequences of designing proteins that nature hasn't made before?

你有在考虑这个问题吗？

Is this something that you're thinking about?

是的，很多人都在认真思考我们需要为各种人工智能技术设置哪些安全边界。

Yeah, I mean, a lot of people thought a lot about the guardrails that we need for different AI technologies.

所有人工智能技术都面临一个共同风险，那就是它们的双重用途。

So the risk with all AI technologies is their dual use.

它们既可以用来造福人类，也可能造成伤害。

So, you can use them for benefits or you can use them for harmful impact.

病毒主要由蛋白质构成，它们会侵入我们的细胞。

So, viruses are composed primarily of proteins and they infect our cells.

现在这些用于蛋白质设计的AI系统，可能会被用来针对某种病毒，优化它的传播能力或感染效率。

With all of these AI architectures for protein design and you can think that somebody can take a given virus and then can use these AI models for protein design to improve their transmissibility or their infection rate.

这些确实是有害的用途，但幸运的是，政府和企业已经采取了多种方式来评估这些模型的风险，试图弄清楚一旦向公众开放，可能会带来哪些潜在威胁。

So those are like harmful decisions but fortunately there have been different approaches from governments and also from companies to try to assess the risk of these models with different evaluations and try then to make sense of what will be the risk that we can have when releasing these models to the public.

再深入一点，我们该怎么去监管呢？

Just to go a step further, how do we regulate it?

你知道，监管总是赶不上技术的创新，但我很好奇，你的工作和现有的政策与防护措施之间目前是什么关系？

You know, I mean, obviously regulation always lags behind innovation, but I'm just curious, can you speak to the current relationship between your work and the policy and protections in place?

随着这项技术不断发展，你希望这种关系未来会变成什么样？既要保留它为人类解决重大问题带来的创新潜力，又要控制住你提到的那些风险。

And, you know, what do you hope this relationship will look like as this technology continues to grow that both allows for the innovation that is obviously creating the possibilities for incredible problem solving for humanity and also those dangers that you're touching on?

包括我在内的一批科学家，还有人工智能在生物学领域（不只是认知科学）的其他知名专家，共同签署了一份名为‘生物设计中的负责任AI’的指南，承诺我们会大力识别在开发各类AI生物设计模型时可能存在的风险，并在发布模型时明确标注这些风险，甚至尝试所谓的‘去学习’——也就是让模型尽量避免捕捉那些可能被滥用的有害特性。

So a bunch of scientists, including myself and other very well known scientists in the realm of artificial intelligence for everything about biology, not only about cognitive science, signed some guidelines that were called responsible AI for bio design that indicate that we will do significant efforts to identify risk in the different models that we develop for different types of bio design using artificial intelligence and then try to indicate those risks whenever we release the models or try to do what people call unlearning, which is try to make models to somehow not capture these, like, harmful potential when you release them to the public.

目前，你还是得靠专业科学家来操作，因为这些工具并不容易上手。

For now, you still need, like, an expert scientist because they are not very easy to use.

但如果你把这些工具和大型语言模型结合起来，让普通人也能通过对话来操作电脑，那风险就在于——任何一个人理论上都可以问语言模型：‘你能帮我设计一个极具危害性的生物体吗？’

But if you combine them with these large language models that allow for having a conversation with your computer without having the expertise for creating something, so the risk over there is that any person can, in principle, ask to, for example, to one of these language models, Can you please create a very harmful biological thing?

英国、美国和欧盟都设立了人工智能安全机构。

Both The UK and The US and also the European Union have AI safety institutes.

他们的工作就是评估这些技术可能带来的风险。

And what they do is that they evaluate the risk of using these different technologies.

他们会设定不同的风险等级，判断是极高风险必须采取行动，还是风险很低。

And so, they have these different thresholds for determining whether it's a very high risk and we have to do something about it or it's very low.

对于中等风险的情况，我们仍需保持关注，但不需要严格监管。

And then we do have to keep an eye on it, but without oversight.

是的。

Yeah.

当然还有很多工作要做，但听到已经有这样的思考和严谨机制在运行，还是让人感到安心的。

I mean, obviously so much work still to be done, but it's always comforting to hear the things that are in place in terms of that kind of thinking and rigor.

这让我想到，现在全球科学界的格局变化真快，比如美国最近在气候科学等领域出台的新政策。

I guess that leads me to think also, you know, things are shifting so much, obviously, right now in the global landscape of science, you know, recent policy changes in The US around climate science and otherwise.

你刚才提到的，到底该由谁来负责人工智能的监管，就是个很好的例子。

The example that you just gave of, you know, who needs to be doing this work in terms of regulation around AI.

你觉得这会不会给其他国家带来机会？

Do you see this as an opportunity for other countries to kind of step in?

我觉得确实，其他国家也有机会带头做这件事。

I mean, I think, yeah, there is an opportunity for other countries to lead it.

我知道欧洲已经在行动了。

There's efforts, I know, in Europe.

丹麦正在为人工智能在生物设计中的应用投入大量资金。

Denmark is putting a lot of funding into AI for bio design.

英国也在大力投资这个领域。

The UK is also investing a lot of funding into that.

至少在拉丁美洲，一些国家也开始积极跟进，试图抢占先机。

There's efforts, at least in Latin America, to also, like, step on these things and and try to take the lead.

我的国家智利，就长期主导了一项倡议，旨在评估人工智能在不同用途中的风险和伦理问题。

So my country, Chile is, like, leading for a while an initiative to ascertain the risk and the ethical usage of artificial intelligence for different purposes.

因此，这个国家完全有机会在蛋白质设计方面利用人工智能，成为拉丁美洲的引领者。

And so there is an opportunity for using artificial intelligence for protein design methods in the country and be like a leading country in Latin America for that.

不过，过去一年年轻人经历了不少变化，很多国家都在积极行动，试图在改进SAP方面走在前列。

But yeah, since the youth has been experiencing some changes in the last year, yeah, there's a lot of countries that have been like stepping up and trying to take the lead in improving the SAP.

明白了。

Okay.

我想聊聊创意，还有艺术与科学之间的关系，因为我知道这对你来说很重要。

I'd love to touch on creativity for a minute and the relationship between art and science a little bit because I know it's something that's important to you.

你知道，我的背景也是艺术，主要做戏剧导演和电影。

As you know, my background is also in the arts, in theater directing and film.

我想问问，你能跟大家说说你的艺术背景吗，塞萨尔？

And I'm curious, can you tell everyone a little bit about your background in the arts, Cesar?

艺术和科学，我一直都把它们放在心上。

I think that arts and science have have been always on my mind.

我七岁那年，父亲不幸去世，之后我在高中阶段一度很迷茫，妈妈就给我报了很多校外的艺术课程。

When I was seven, I had the unfortunate reality of my dad passing away and like after that I remember that in high school I kind of struggled a little bit so my mom decided to put me into a lot of classes outside primary school and high school which will be a lot of arts.

我最早学的是油画，大概八九岁的时候就开始了。

So the first thing that I did was to learn how to do oil on canvas when I was like eight or nine.

我就这么一直做了好几年，直到十五岁左右。

And yeah, I did that for several years until I was like 15 or something like that.

那时候我也开始学着弹吉他。

I also started like learning how to play the guitar by that time.

高中时我还开始接触表演。

I started also doing acting in high school.

对我来说，艺术和科学都是激发创造力的广阔领域。

And so for me, like arts and science are like huge spaces for creativity.

你可以尝试突破自己的极限，拓展你能创造的东西的边界。

You can try to push the boundaries of what you can do, expand your horizons in terms of, like, what you can create.

我觉得艺术和科学就像是两种相似的途径，都是为了探索创造力的边界。

Arts and science, I see them as, like, similar programs for, like, exploring those boundaries in creativity.

科学家之间聊蛋白质，其实挺自然的。

And talking about proteins, like, between scientists is, like, kind of easy.

对吧？

Right?

但公民身份这个问题太复杂了，所以我一直在想，艺术其实是个非常有力的工具，能帮人表达这些极其复杂的话题。

But it's very complex for the citizenship and so I've been thinking a lot of that arts can be a very powerful tool for actually expressing what these very complex topics are.

我一直在琢磨，什么样的艺术表现形式能让人真正理解蛋白质是什么、它们又做些什么。

So I've been thinking about which artistic renditions can actually provide an understanding of what a protein is and what they do.

我觉得，把艺术和科学结合起来，能让我们把边界推得更远。

I think that by connecting art and science together, you can push the boundaries even further.

这太棒了。

I love that.

我觉得这特别有意思。

I think that's so fascinating.

明白了。

Okay.

我最后一个问题是，你现在最害怕的是什么？又是什么给了你希望？

My last question is just what is something you're really scared of right now and what is something that's giving you hope?

天哪。

Oh, no.

我觉得疫情之后，我总在担心，接下来还会发生什么。

I think that after the pandemic, I'm always scared about, oh, what's going to come next.

对吧？

Right?

比如，如果再出现类似的大流行，我们该怎么应对？与其担心我们应对的能力，我更担心人的行为——我们太容易遗忘。就拿智利来说，我们曾经被封锁过一段时间。

So, like, if there's going to be another pandemic like that and how are we going to respond to that instead of, like, being concerned about like our capacity to respond to things, I'm more concerned about like human behavior, which is like we're very forgetful and we might forget that we were like, at least in our case in Chile, we were in quarantine for a while.

我真的不想再经历一次那样的情况。

And I don't want to be in that situation again.

让我感到希望的是，现在有很多科学家正在投入资源，研究用生物技术应对气候变化。

What I'm hopeful for is that there's a lot of investment and interest also from scientists to work on biotechnological solutions for combating climate change.

比如塑料降解只是其中一个例子，还有很多努力在试图减少温室气体排放。

Plastic deorrelation is just one example, but there's a lot of efforts for trying to eliminate greenhouse gases.

我们知道，有些方案基于蛋白质，有些基于细胞，现在对这些领域的投资兴趣特别高。

We know that there are some protein based solutions and also some cell based solutions and there's a lot of interest for investing on them.

所以我非常期待，就在不久的将来，会涌现出一批专注于气候变化、并且真正取得成效的生物科技初创公司。

So I'm very hopeful that in the future and actually in the near future we will see a lot of startup biotechs that are working on climate change and successfully.

那真是太好了。

So that's going to be great.

这真的让人兴奋。

That's really exciting.

你也是。

Well, you.

一如既往，这次对话既精彩又充满活力。

As always, this has been a really fascinating and energizing conversation.

非常感谢你，塞萨尔。

So thanks so much, Cesar.

能来这儿我很开心。

Happy to be here.

刚才那位是塞萨尔·拉米雷斯·萨尔门托，2025年TED研究员。

That was Ceasar Ramiras Sarmiento, a TED twenty twenty five fellow.

想了解更多关于TED研究员计划的信息，或观看所有TED研究员的影片，请访问 fellows.ted.com。

To learn more about the TED Fellows program and watch all the TED Fellows films, just go to fellows.ted.com.

好了，今天就到这里。

And that's it for today.

本期节目由露西·利特尔制作，亚历杭德拉·萨拉扎尔剪辑，伊娃·达舍核对事实。

This episode was produced by Lucy Little, edited by Alejandra Salazar, and fact checked by Eva Dasher.

片头的音频来自迪维亚·加登吉和欧文·麦克莱恩拍摄的短片，故事编辑由科里·哈贾姆负责，制作由伊恩·洛完成。

The audio you heard at the top comes from the short film made by Divya Gadengi and Owen McClain, Story edited by Corey Hajam and produced by Ian Lowe.

视频制作主管是西林·多尔玛。

Video production manager is Searing Dolma.

特别感谢莉莉·詹姆斯·奥尔兹、莱奥妮·霍斯特和阿莱格拉·珀尔的支持。

Additional support from Lily James Olds, Leonie Horster, and Allegra Pearl.

《TED 演讲每日》属于 TED 音频合集的一部分。

TED Talks Daily is part of the TED audio collective.

我们的团队包括玛莎·埃斯特瓦诺斯、奥利弗·弗里德曼、布莱恩·格林、露西·利特尔和坦西卡·苏恩马尼旺。

Our team includes Martha Estevanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Lucy Little, and Tansika Sungmarnivang.

特别感谢艾玛·陶布纳和达尼埃拉·巴洛拉佐的支持。

Additional support from Emma Taubner and Daniela Balorazzo.

我是伊莉丝·胡。

I'm Elise Hu.

明天我会带着一个新点子回来，供你刷新时阅读。

I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

在《TED电台秀》中，过去几年里，前白宫主厨萨姆·卡斯一直举办他称之为‘最后的晚餐’的聚餐。

On the TED Radio Hour, over the last few years, former White House chef Sam Cass has been hosting meals that he calls last suppers.

菜单上的食材，都是因气候变化而面临威胁的品种。

On the menu, ingredients that are at risk because of climate change.

我不希望人们因此感到内疚或沮丧。

I hope it's not that people feel guilty or depressed.

我的愿望是，让大家真正理解一块牛排背后所代表的整个生活方式。

My hope is that we understand what the steak is really like fully our way of life.

食物的未来。

The future of food.

接下来请关注 NPR 的《TED 演讲合集》。

That's next time on the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

欢迎在您常用的播客平台订阅或收听《TED 演讲合集》。

Subscribe or listen to the TED Radio Hour wherever you get your podcasts.