邪教用来影响你的隐蔽语言技巧 | 阿曼达·蒙特尔

您正在收听TED每日演讲，我们每天为您带来激发好奇心的新思想。

You're listening to TED Talks Daily where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day.

我是您的主持人，伊莉丝·胡。

I'm your host, Elise Hu.

作家、语言学家和播客主持人阿曼达·蒙特尔表示，我们正经历有记录以来最充满崇拜氛围的时代，那些帮助早期人类生存的固有认知偏差，正与社交媒体和数字交流产生碰撞。

Writer, linguist, and podcaster Amanda Montell says we are living through the cultiest era on record as the hardwired cognitive biases that helped early humans survive brush up against social media and digital communication.

研究表明，社交媒体损害了我们的心理健康和注意力持续时间，同时让具有崇拜色彩的领袖变得前所未有的容易接触。

Studies show that social media has damaged our mental health and our attention spans, all the while making cult ish leaders mega accessible.

既然有评论区，谁还需要封闭社区呢？

Who needs compounds when you have comment sections?

她揭示了三种崇拜团体用来影响我们的隐蔽语言策略，无论好坏，揭示了为什么我们任何人都不可能像自己想象的那样免疫于崇拜影响。

She exposes three sneaky language tactics that cults use to influence us for better or for worse, revealing why none of us are as cult proof as we'd like to think.

演讲结束后请继续关注，阿曼达和我专门聚在一起，超越她的演讲内容，探讨她为何投身于崇拜研究、人工智能在这些更易滋生崇拜的时代中扮演的角色，以及当我们怀疑身边亲近的人可能陷入崇拜团体时该怎么做。

And stick around after the talk, Amanda and I got together to go beyond her talk to discuss what led her to the study of cults, the role of AI in these cultier times, and what to do if we think someone we know and love may be in a cult.

以上内容将在短暂的赞助商广告后为您呈现。

That's all coming up right after a short break from our sponsors.

我们都会遇到糟糕的日子，有时甚至是糟糕的几周，甚至糟糕的几年。

We all have bad days and sometimes bad weeks and maybe even bad years.

但好消息是，我们不必独自摸索生活的答案。

But the good news is we don't have to figure out life all alone.

我是喜剧演员克里斯·达菲，TED播客《如何成为更好的人》的主持人。

I'm comedian Chris Duffy, host of TED's How to Be a Better Human podcast.

我们的节目探讨的是你可以用来改善生活的那些小方法——一些切实可行的建议，能让你的日常生活变得更好。

And our show is about the little ways that you can improve your life, actual practical tips that you can put into place that will make your day to day better.

无论是设定工作界限，还是重新思考如何打扫房间，每一集都会邀请专家分享如何应对生活起伏的实用技巧。

Whether it is setting boundaries at work or rethinking how you clean your house, each episode has conversations with experts who share tips on how to navigate life's ups and downs.

无论你在哪里收听，都可以找到《如何成为更好的人》这个节目。

Find how to be a better human wherever you're listening to this.

现在，让我们进入今天TED演讲。

And now our TED Talk of the day.

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

或者该说，大家好，我的粉丝们。

Or shall I say, greetings, followers.

请坐好。

And settle in.

因为我即将与你们分享一个关于世界上最具狂热性的邪教的真实故事。

Because I'm about to share with you a true story about one of the most zealous cults in the world.

这个故事发生在该团体最神圣的一天。

This story takes place on the group's holiest day.

追随者们在黎明时分抵达，有些人跨越了海洋，甚至倾尽积蓄才来到这里。

Acolytes arrived at dawn, some having crossed oceans and sacrificed life savings in order to get there.

他们带来了手工串珠的供品，上面刻着神圣的数字：22、13、89。

They came bearing hand beaded offerings inscribed with sacred numbers, 22, thirteen, eighty nine.

但朋友们，这并不是一个发生在遥远据点的末日教派的故事。

But this, my friends, is not the story of an apocalyptic sect on a faraway compound.

不，这其实是一场泰勒·斯威夫特的演唱会。

No, this was a Taylor Swift concert.

我说了。

I said it.

护身符是友谊手链，圣经般的典籍被称为“时代”，而那位富有魅力的领袖是一位亿万富翁流行女祭司——坦白说，如果她真想这么做，她几乎可以统治自由世界。

The talismans are friendship bracelets, the biblical books are known as eras, and the charismatic leader is a billionaire pop priestess who, let's be honest, could probably rule the free world if she really wanted to.

不过别误会。

Now don't get me wrong.

我是个彻头彻尾的《红》专辑女孩。

I'm a deep dyed Red Album girly.

我并不是来指责斯威夫特迷们是狂热追随者的。

I'm not here to call out Swifties' cult followers.

不，我可不敢。

No, I wouldn't dare.

但我是一位作家，也是一位具有语言学背景的文化评论员。

But I'm an author and a cultural commentator with a background in linguistics.

我在这里想分享的是，我们每个人其实都容易受到类似狂热思维的影响，无论好坏，而我们日常的词汇恰恰证明了我们的忠诚。

And I'm here to share how we're all susceptible to cultish thinking, for better and for worse, and our everyday vocabularies are evidence of our devotion.

我在这里想分享的是，要注意什么、倾听什么，这样在我们度过这些不可避免地带有邪教色彩的时代时，既能保持着迷，又能获得力量。

I'm here to share what to pay attention to, what to listen for, so that as we move through these inevitably cult y times, we can stay both enchanted and empowered.

我对邪教的着迷是个人化的。

Now, my fascination with cults is personal.

这要从我父亲说起。

That's because of my dad.

他青少年时期被迫加入了Synanon组织——一个七十年代加州的封闭社区，成员穿着统一的连体工装，还有一种令人创伤的‘坦白游戏’。

As a teenager, he was forced to join Synanon, a seventies California compound with matching overalls and a traumatizing truth telling ritual called the game.

但我的父亲逃了出来，成为了一名神经科学家，并养育了一个好奇心旺盛的孩子，而这个孩子后来痴迷于理解如何识别日常生活中的邪教式影响。

But my dad escaped, became a neuroscientist, and brought up a nosy kid who became obsessed with understanding how to identify cultish influence in everyday life.

随着我长大，我忍不住注意到，我父亲描述的Synanon中的语言策略，其实随处可见，比如在我的高中戏剧社、在健康养生行业，以及在我的社交媒体动态里。

As I got older, I couldn't help but notice that the same language tactics that my dad described in Synanon could be found kind of everywhere, like in my high school theater program and in the wellness industry and on my social media feed.

正是这样，我开始研究邪教影响的光谱——这些影响的程度，都不是从迷幻药和长袍开始的，而是悄然地，从语言开始。

That's how I came to study the cultish spectrum, degrees of influence, none of which start out with LSD and robes, but instead, sneakily, with words.

我想指出三种在日常生活中需要留意的邪教式语言策略。

I want to point out three cultish language tactics to listen for in everyday life.

第一个是所谓的‘终止思维的陈词滥调’。

The first is called the thought terminating cliche.

这个术语由精神病学家罗伯特·J·利夫顿于1961年提出。

Coined in 1961 by the psychiatrist Robert J.

终止思维的陈词滥调是一些朗朗上口、易于记忆和重复的短语，旨在压制独立思考和质疑。

Lifton, thought terminating cliches are zingy stack expressions that are easy to memorize, easy to repeat, and aimed at shutting down independent thinking and questioning.

假设你是某个团体的成员，而你想要反对其中一条规则。

So let's say you're a member of a group, and there's a rule that you want to push back against.

你可能会听到这样的话，比如‘相信过程’或‘这都是上帝的安排’，来让你闭嘴。

You might get hit with a phrase like, trust the process, or it's all in God's plan to shut you down.

在Synanon组织中，‘假装相信’这句话实际上意味着：假装你相信，直到你真的相信。

In Synanon, the phrase act as if effectively meant pretend that you believe until you do.

如今，在阴谋论团体中，‘自己去研究’这句话基本上就是在说：别再问我关于我的观点了。

Today, in conspiracy theory type groups, the phrase do your research basically means stop asking me about mine.

接下来，我想谈谈‘我们 vs 他们’的标签。

Next, I want to talk about us versus them labels.

在Synanon组织中，脱离者被称为‘分裂者’。

In Synanon, defectors were called splitties.

如今，你有‘绵羊’、‘NPC’、‘行业托儿’这些称呼。

Today, you've got your sheeple, your NPCs, your industry plants.

当一个标签让所有这些人显得全然邪恶，而我们则高人一等时，这就是一个危险信号。

When a label makes all of those people seem unilaterally evil and us superior, that's a red flag.

第三，我想提一下充满负载的语言，比如‘企业协同愿景家’、‘健康养生’、‘五维意识’。

And thirdly, I want to mention loaded language, corporate synergistic visionaries, wellness, five d consciousness.

起初，这类情绪化的流行语让人感觉像是顿悟。

At first, emotionally charged buzzwords like this feel like enlightenment.

但有一天你突然醒悟，发现自己已经完全放弃了独立思考和表达的能力。

Then one day, wake up and you realize you've completely surrendered your ability to talk and think for yourself.

这种语言之所以有效，是因为它直接利用了我们的认知偏见——这些根深蒂固的决策捷径，原本在人类早期大脑中发展出来，帮助我们处理外界信息以求生存。

This language works because it plugs straight into our cognitive biases, these deeply ingrained decision making shortcuts that developed in earlier human brains to help us process information from the world around us enough to survive it.

但如今，像确认偏误、沉没成本谬误和光环效应这样的心理把戏，让我们只相信自己原本就认同的信息，固执于可疑的选择，并将从未谋面的凡人奉为全知全能的神明。

But today, mental magic tricks like confirmation bias, the sunk cost fallacy and the halo effect cause us to believe only the information we already agree with, double down on sketchy choices and worship mortal human beings we've never even met as all knowing dignities.

这种我们曾经有用的认知偏差与信息时代之间的冲突，就是我所称的‘魔法式过度思考’现象。

This clash between our once useful cognitive biases and the information age is this phenomenon that I've been calling magical overthinking.

这是一个问题，因为研究表明，社交媒体损害了我们的心理健康和注意力跨度，同时让具有邪教色彩的领袖变得极易接触。

And it's a problem, because studies show that social media has damaged our mental health and our attention spans, all the while making cult ish leaders mega accessible.

有了评论区，谁还需要封闭社区呢？

Who needs compounds when you have comment sections?

我这样说并不是为了吓唬任何人。

Now, I don't say this to freak anyone out.

我只是想指出敬畏与洗脑之间的区别。

I'm just here to point out the difference between awe and indoctrination.

我想给我们留下一些小贴士，帮助我们做到这一点。

And I want to leave us with a few tips to help us do that.

首先，当你发现自己身处一个空间——即使是一个数字空间——感到情绪被强烈激发，大量使用让你感觉自己属于某个群体的流行语，却无法用通俗的英语准确表达自己在说什么或为什么时，这就意味着你应该退一步，咨询其他信息来源。

First of all, when you find yourself in a space, even a digital one, where you feel really emotionally activated and you're using a lot of buzzwords that make you feel like you're part of a tribe, but you can't really define exactly what you're saying in plain English or why, that's a sign to take a step back and consult other sources.

其次，注意退出成本。

Next, pay attention to exit costs.

健康的群体可能会让离开感觉有些尴尬，但绝不会让人觉得末日来临或天崩地裂。

Healthy groups might make leaving feel awkward, but never apocalyptic or earth shattering.

最后，我们可以把类似邪教的语言用在正面的地方。

And finally, we can use cult language for good.

朗朗上口、押韵的口号，也可以用来让真实的信息更易传播。

Rousing chance rhyming mantras, they can be used to make true information catchy too.

我并不是来剥夺任何人友谊手链的。

I'm not here to take away anyone's friendship bracelets.

我们现在比以往任何时候都更需要社群。

We need community more now than ever.

所以我认为，生活在这个有史以来最像邪教的时代，目标不是完全免疫于邪教，而是具备识别邪教的能力。

So I think, living in this cultiest era of all time, the goal is not so much to be cult proof, it's to be cult literate.

你明白吗？

You follow?

谢谢。

Thank you.

别走开，还有一会儿。

Don't go away just yet.

我的对话将与阿曼达·蒙特尔在短暂广告后立即开始。

My conversation with Amanda Montell is coming up right after a short break.

嗨。

Hi.

我是亚当·格兰特，播客《重新思考》的主持人，这个节目里我会与当今一些最杰出的思想家探讨他们看待世界的不同寻常方式。

I'm Adam Grant, host of the podcast Rethinking, a show where I talk to some of today's greatest thinkers about the unconventional ways they see the world.

在《重新思考》中，你会从科学家、领导者、艺术家等人那里获得令人惊讶的洞见。

On Rethinking, you'll get surprising insights from scientists, leaders, artists, and more.

比如蕾西·威瑟斯彭、马尔科姆·格拉德威尔和马友友。

People like Reese Witherspoon, Malcolm Gladwell, and Yo Yo Ma.

这里有一些实用的建议，能帮助你在工作中取得成功、建立更好的人际关系等等。

Here are lessons to help you find success at work, build better relationships, and more.

在你收听播客的任何平台都能找到《重新思考》。

Find Rethinking wherever you get your podcasts.

阿曼达，恭喜你的演讲。

Amanda, congratulations on your talk.

哦，谢谢你。

Oh, thank you.

你觉得通过三本书和现在的TED演讲，你的工作有哪些演变？

How do you think your work has evolved through three books and now with your TED Talk?

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

嗯，我的第一本书出版时，我简直震惊又欣喜，没想到自己的事业竟然真的起步了。

Well, with my first book, I was just shocked and delighted that my career was taking off or, like, was getting anywhere at all.

所以那时候，我的职业生涯正处于一种冒名顶替综合症和手足无措的状态，但同时也充满热情，想要与观众分享那些看似小众、却一直让我觉得极其迷人且具有文化紧迫性的主题。

And so I would say at that point, my career was just in a state of impostor syndrome and flailing, but also incredible enthusiasm to share subjects that may seem kinda niche, but had always felt really fascinating and also culturally urgent to me with an audience.

随着时间推移，我觉得自己对声音的自信增强了，好奇心也更广泛了，研究范围从语言与性别这种高度具体的话题，扩展到了语言、权力、社会、流行文化等种种让我着迷的现象如何相互作用的更多问题。

And as the years have gone on, I think I've become a little more confident in my voice and more broadly curious and have widened my scope from this kind of hyper specific subject of language and gender to other questions of how language, power, society, pop culture, all these different phenomena that really pique my curiosity interact with one another.

好的。

Okay.

好吧，让我们深入谈谈你的演讲，因为你在演讲中提到一些关于你父亲年轻时曾加入邪教，后来设法逃脱的经历。

Well, let's dig into your talk because you share in your talk a little bit about your dad's past and how he was an occult when he was a teen before he managed to escape.

显然，这个故事对你产生了巨大的影响。

And clearly, that story had a huge influence on you.

那么，你小时候和他聊过哪些关于这件事的话题呢？

So what sorts of conversations did you have with him growing up about this?

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

为了提供一些背景，我父亲在名叫Synanon的邪教中长大，这个组织在20世纪70年代达到鼎盛，最初是一个替代性的戒毒中心，后来演变成一个极其 abusive 的封闭社区。

To set some context, my dad grew up in a cult called Synanon, which was really at its peak during the nineteen seventies and started out as an alternative drug rehabilitation center turned pretty abusive compound.

我是在父亲的故事中长大的。

And I grew up on my dad's stories.

你知道，我父亲是世界上最可爱的人。

And, you know, my dad, he's the most darling man ever.

他简直是个大滑稽人物。

I mean, he's like such a goofball.

我觉得他确实符合那种典型的‘心不在焉的教授’形象，而且令人喜爱。

I think he definitely meets that kind of stereotype of the, like, sort of absent minded professor, like, endearingly so.

所以，你知道，他并不是那种沉溺于过去或纠结于创伤的人。

And so, you know, he's not someone who lives in the past or dwells on his traumas.

你知道吗？

You know?

他是个乐观派，非常外向，我认为他直到有了我这个特别爱刨根问底的小女儿——她总缠着他讲你人生中的真实故事，不是编的，不是童话——才重新回顾自己的童年和那段邪教经历。

He's like this optimist type and really gregarious, and, I don't think he'd really, you know, revisited his childhood and his cult stories much until he had this really nosy little daughter who is constantly begging him to tell me a story from your life, not a made up story, not a fairy tale.

我就想听真实的故事。

Like, I wanna hear a real true story.

为了哄我这个孩子开心，他翻出了那些后来被证明极其迷人又令人毛骨悚然的青少年时期回忆——在那个组织里，孩子被和父母分开，住在阴暗的集体宿舍里。

And just to kind of, you know, entertain his kid, he drudged up some of these, as it turned out, really mesmerizing and horrifying tales of his teenage years growing up in this group where children were separated from their parents and had to live in these dismal barracks.

有一段时间，所有人都必须剃光头，参加大规模的集体称重。

At a point, everybody had to shave their head and participate in these massive group weigh ins.

无论领袖查克·迪德里希有什么突发奇想，整个团体都必须参与一种被称为‘游戏’的仪式，这是Synanon生活中最核心的部分。

Whatever the whims of the leader Chuck Diedrich dictated, Everyone in the group had to participate in this ritual called the game, which was kind of the centerpiece of life in Synanon.

这是一种极具敌意且令人创伤的团体治疗仪式，参与者——包括孩子——必须围成一圈，被迫对彼此进行恶毒的人际批评。

It was this pretty hostile and traumatizing group therapy ritual where people, even kids, had to participate, would gather in a circle and be forced to malign one another with vicious interpersonal criticism.

这种仪式以及Synanon邪教整体最终为后来所谓的问题青少年产业奠定了基础。

And this ritual and the cult of Synanon in general ended up laying the foundation for what would later become the troubled teen industry.

那种可怕的、由虐待性的野外项目组成的庞大体系

The, like, horrible conglomerate of, like, abusive wilderness programs

你会被送到野外去。

You get that sent out to the wilderness.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我从小听着父亲讲的这些故事长大，它们既迷人又令人毛骨悚然。

And so I grew up on these stories that my dad would tell me that were so enrapturing and spooky.

而且，你知道，我从小就特别爱说话、对语言着迷，早在知道语言学这个领域之前就是这样，父亲故事中最让我着迷的部分，总是那些特殊的语言——比如那些行话、非我即敌的标签，以及Synanon成员用来压制批判性思维、将人划分为内部人和外部人、从而建立团结感的专门术语。

And, you know, because I've always been a loquacious and language oriented kid long before I knew what the field of linguistics was, the most fascinating part of my dad's stories to me was always the special language, you know, the buzzwords and us versus them labels and special terminology that Synanon members would use to, you know, shut down members' critical thinking, to divide people into insiders and outsiders, to, you know, build solidarity.

我长大成人后发现，一些与Synanon类似但没那么恶劣的地方，也存在着同样的语言策略，但这些地方至少在某种程度上显得有点像邪教。

And I grew up and came of age and noticed that some of those same linguistic strategies could be found in places that weren't as bad as Synanon, but definitely seemed culty to some degree.

是的。

Yeah.

但正如你在演讲和书中所指出的，并非所有类似邪教或带有邪教色彩的事物都一定是坏的。

But as you suggest in the talk and in your book, not all cult like or cultish things are necessarily bad.

比如，热爱泰勒·斯威夫特，是的。

Loving Taylor Swift, for example Yeah.

或者那些像信徒一样去Soul Cycle健身的人。

Or people who go to Soul Cycle religiously.

这本身并不一定是坏事，反而能促进社群建设，让人感受到归属感。

That's not inherently bad and can lead to a lot of community building and feelings of connection.

对你来说，界限在哪里？

Where is the line for you?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这就是为什么我描述了这种类似邪教的谱系。

I mean, this is why I described the cultish spectrum.

对吧？

Right?

因为作为人类，我们是社会性动物。

Because we as human beings are a social species.

我们需要社群、联系和归属感。

We need community and connection and belonging.

这就是我们的本性。

It's who we are.

只有当那些权力欲旺盛、心怀不轨的人开始利用我们这些深刻而美好的人性需求时，它才开始变得危险。

It only starts to become dangerous when, you know, power hungry, nefarious figures start to take advantage of our deeply human and beautiful drives for those very things.

因此，在美国长大，由于美国梦意识形态、在这里盛行的优绩主义神话，以及我们缺乏许多先进国家和文化所拥有的社会项目和政府服务等原因，我们与邪教和邪教式行为有着一种明显一贯的关系。

And so growing up in The United States, which has a distinctly consistent relationship to cults and cultishness for a number of reasons from our American dream ideology, the meritocracy myth that thrives here to, you know, our lack or dearth of some of the social programs and government services that allow a lot of advanced nations and cultures to thrive.

你知道，我们经常在这个国家感到存在上的迷失。

You know, we feel

嗯。

Mhmm.

在这种情况下，一些可能有害的人物就会趁虚而入，说：政府并没有照顾你。

Kind of existentially unmoored in this country a lot of the time, which paves the way for potentially pernicious figures to come in and say, oh, the government isn't taking care of you.

你的医疗体系有问题。

You got problems with the health care system.

你可能已经背离了你从小成长的教会。

You know, you're rejecting the church that you maybe grew up in.

来吧，加入我的团体。

Here, like, join my group.

我有答案。

I have the answers.

而且，这些团体中确实有一些总体上是积极的，但还是有一些你可以留意的迹象。

And again, some of those groups are net positive for sure, but there are signs that you can look for.

从语言角度来看，因为这是我主要的视角，一些需要警惕的邪教语言信号包括过度使用终止思考的陈词滥调，这样追随者可能产生的任何认知失调都会被压制，从而让掌权者能够长期维持其地位。

And I would say that on the language side of things, because that's really my lens, some, you know, cult linguistic red flags to listen for would be the extreme use of thought terminating cliches so that any cognitive dissonance that a follower might feel will be quelled such that the person in power can remain so for, you know, an indefinite period.

一个终止思考的陈词滥调可能表现为类似‘别让恐惧支配你’这样的说法，用以压制对新冠疫情的担忧。

A thought terminating cliche might come in the form of a phrase like, don't let yourself be ruled by fear to, like, squash concerns about the COVID nineteen pandemic.

或者当有人提出质疑时，就说‘你只需要自己做点研究’。

Or, oh, you just need to do your research when someone expresses pushback.

但这里的‘研究’并不一定意味着登录JSTOR阅读一些同行评审的研究论文。

And by research, that doesn't necessarily mean like logging on to JSTOR and reading some peer reviewed studies.

相反，它可能意味着你掉进了4chan或Reddit之类的网络论坛里，那里充斥着确认偏误和阴谋论。

Rather, it might mean, you know, falling down a rabbit hole on 4chan or Reddit or something like that that's laden with confirmation bias and conspiracy theories.

但没错。

But Right.

终止性陈词滥调也出现在我们的日常生活中，比如‘这就是命’或者‘男孩天性如此’之类的说法。

Thought terminating cliches also show up in our everyday lives in the form of phrases like, oh, it is what it is or boys will be boys, you know.

它们的目的其实是让人停止思考。

So they're really aimed at getting people not to think.

至于那些不一定与语言相关的警示信号，比如你可能已经踏入了令人不适的极端领域，我会说，当一个团体不给你留任何退路，退出成本极高，没有体面的方式可以只是偶尔参与或离开，否则你可能担心自己的生命或社群安全，会失去所有朋友、人脉，甚至遭遇更严重的后果时，这就是一个信号。

Now, in terms of red flags or, you know, signs that you've maybe crossed into territory that's too cold ish for comfort that don't specifically have to do with language, I would say when a group does not create room to have one foot out the door, if there are extreme exit costs, there's no dignified way to only participate casually or to leave, lest you fear for your life or your community, you'll lose all of your friends, your connections, or even more, you know, extreme consequences.

这表明这个团体可能并不健康，它正在以某种方式控制你，而这种控制已经越过了邪教的界限。

That's a sign that this group may not be so healthy and is trying to control you in ways that, yeah, are just over the line of cultishness.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你对拟社会关系怎么看？

What do you think about parasocial relationships?

因为你知道，邪教往往有极具魅力的领袖。

Because, you know, cults tend to have charismatic leaders.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，拟社会化的邪教领袖是二十一世纪的新式邪教领袖。

I think parasocial cult leaders are the the new cult leader of the twenty first century.

传统上，我们觉得邪教是一些在偏远营地运作的团体，像曼森那样，或者琼斯镇那样。

Think I classically, we think of cults as these groups that operate on remote compounds, Manson style, Jonestown style.

我相信，仅凭论坛的运作方式和社交媒体算法对煽情内容及特定形式魅力的奖励，一个人完全可能在自己客厅或床上被激进化，陷入邪教状态。

I do believe it is absolutely possible to be radicalized or whipped up into a state of cultishness from the comfort of your living room or your bed just because of the way that forums operate and the way that social media algorithms reward sensationalism and certain forms of charisma.

我从不希望太过煽情。

I I never wanna be too sensationalist.

显然，也有一些拟社会群体是积极正面的，粉丝社群确实能为边缘群体、年轻人提供一个安全而充满爱的空间，他们正经历着——

Obviously, there are pair of social communities that are net positive, fan communities can really provide, like, a safe and loving space for marginalized folks, young people who are Yeah.

日益加剧的孤独感，这已被描述为一种流行病，我真心相信这是真的。

Increasingly experiencing loneliness, which has been described as an epidemic, and I really believe that's true.

然而，是的，当我们开始失去理智，陷入这种极具敌意的动态时，心理学家称之为‘分裂’：我们将其他粉丝，甚至我们仰慕的名人、商业领袖、播客主持人，划分为神圣的天使或堕落的恶魔。

However, yeah, when we start to kind of lose the plot and devolve into these kind of really hostile dynamics involving what a psychologist might call splitting where we're dividing other fans or, you know, even celebrities that we admire or business leaders that we admire, podcasters we admire, and all these people are, you know, crossing into each other's lanes into, like, deified angels or disgraced demons.

我们还在猜测，我们的拟社会领袖——无论是泰勒·斯威夫特、政客还是播客——希望我们做什么，他们在想什么。

And we're, you know, making guesses about, like, what our parasocial leader, whether that's Taylor Swift or a politician or a podcaster, might want us to do and what they're thinking.

我们急于下结论，甚至可能因为某个我们远距离仰慕的人发了一条推文，而我们觉得它击中了我们的痛点，就采取暴力行为。

And we're, you know, jumping to conclusions and maybe even committing violence because someone we admire from afar tweeted something that we're finding hitting meetings in.

这很极端，但值得我们审视，不能因为不符合我们在关于NXIVM或天堂之门等纪录片中熟悉的那种‘邪教’标准就忽视它。

That's an extreme, and that's something to examine and not to discount just because it doesn't meet the cult criteria that we're used to seeing in documentaries about NXIVM or Heaven's Gate or whatever.

没错。

So Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我有没有对我崇拜的艺术家产生拟社会关系？

I mean, do I have parasocial relationships with artists that I adore?

当然有。

Of course.

它们有时候是不是有点妄想？

And are they sometimes a little delusional?

而且我会不会认为他们具备某些特质，或者认为如果我们现实中见面，他们会跟我做朋友——而这些想法可能并不准确呢？

And do I think that they have certain qualities or that they would be friends with me if we met in real life that, you know, maybe not be quite accurate?

当然会。

Sure.

这是否导致我与现实中的家人疏远，或者改变我的价值观，完全放弃自我身份，沦为粉丝群体的一员，甚至根据粉丝圈的看法改变我的政治观点等等？

Is that causing me to separate from my real life family or, like, change my values or completely surrender my identity to this group or this affiliation as a fan or even, you know, change my political opinions according to what the fandom thinks, etcetera.

还没有，希望永远不要这样。

Not yet, and hopefully not.

但当我们审视这种类似邪教的谱系时，这些正是需要留意的方面。

But these are some of the things to look for as we, you know, examine this cultish spectrum, if you will.

我忍不住听到你谈论邪教，尤其是当你说到改变我对事物的信念，或者放弃我过去对政策的立场，看到那些曾经持某种观点的人，因为一个有魅力的领袖而彻底转变了看法。

I can't help but to hear you talk about cults and then especially when you're talking about, like, changing my beliefs about things or abandoning my previous positions on policy and seeing, you know, people who used to believe one thing completely believe something different because of a charismatic leader.

为什么某些群体的信徒或成员会继续留在组织中，继续追随那些损害他们自身利益的领袖呢？

How is it that believers or members of certain groups continue to stay in the organization or continue to follow leaders who act against their interests?

我认为这其实并不真正与政策或理念本身有关。

Well, I don't think it really has to do with the policies or the ideas themselves.

因为驱使人们加入这些群体并彼此相连的，是一种团结、社群、仪式感、归属感和身份认同，这些因素共同让人类在地球上的生活变得可以承受。

Because what drives people to these groups and to one another is that sense of unity and community and ritual and belonging and identity, like, all of these factors that make the human experience on Earth bearable.

如果违背一个理念就意味着背叛一个社群，那么即使你对自身所承诺的东西感到深刻的认知失调，你也很可能不会这么做。

And if betraying an idea means betraying a community, you're probably not gonna do it even if you have some profound cognitive dissonance surrounding what you've committed to.

我见过一些原本非常聪明、善良的人，因为……

And I've seen otherwise really smart, lovely people commit to some pretty dangerous ideas because of

归属感。

Sense of belonging.

是的。

Yeah.

这种根深蒂固的人类对社群的渴望。

This, like, deep seated human drive toward community.

我认为，如今的紧迫感和情绪张力之所以更高，是因为我们生活在一个极度两极分化的时代，网络上大量微妙的差异被抹平，许多言论也变得更加具有教派色彩。

And I think that the stakes and the temperature feel higher now because we do live in these extremely polarized times when a lot of nuance gets flattened online and a lot of rhetoric becomes more cultish online.

而且，社交媒体的算法会助长更极端的言论，即使发帖者自己也未必真信这些话。

And, you know, social media algorithms encourage more extreme rhetoric even if the person posting it barely believes it.

所以我认为，我们现在生活在一个越来越像邪教的时代。

So we're living in cultier and cultier times, I think.

我们该如何帮助我们社区中的人，或者我们爱的、可能已经受到洗脑的人？

How do we help people in our communities or people that we love, maybe who have gotten indoctrinated or we believe they've become indoctrinated?

我们该如何帮助他们摆脱这种状态？

How do we help them break out?

我们应该对他们说什么，才不会把他们推得更远？

What do we say to them without pushing them away?

这太难了。

It's so tough.

我的意思是，现在我更容易谈谈哪些话不该说。

I mean, at this point, I think it's easier for me to talk about what not to say.

我可以建议不要告诉他们他们身处邪教，因为这往往会让人产生防御心理，或者让他们说：‘不，我没有。’

I can advise against telling them that they're in a cult because that tends to make people pretty defensive or to say, like, oh, no.

你身处邪教。

You're in a cult.

你知道的。

You know?

素食主义者对抗烧烤爱好者，你知道的，这就像是你在一个邪教里。

Vegans versus the barbecue fanatics and, you know, it's like, you're in a cult.

不。

No.

你在一个邪教里。

You're in a cult.

这种说法可能会引发很多不同的反应。

Like, that can go so many ways.

所以，即使这听起来很有诱惑力，我也建议不要这么说。

So I would avoid saying that as tempting as it might be.

我可能会避免说类似‘你被洗脑了’这样的话。

I might avoid saying things like you're brainwashed.

即使我们内心深处认为他们确实被洗脑了并且身处邪教，这样说也显得不够尊重。

It's just it doesn't feel respectful even if we deep down believe that they are brainwashed and in a cult.

这种指责并不具有建设性。

It's not a productive accusation to wield.

而且，如果我们特别在和那些属于反科学组织或团体的人交谈时，你知道的。

And then also, like, if we're specifically talking to someone who's in, you know, an anti science type of organization or community or whatever.

我可能还会建议不要试图用来自NIH的证据，或者你从某个他们认为已被污染的媒体或出版物上读到的研究来反驳他们的信念。

I also might suggest avoiding trying to disprove their beliefs with, you know, proof from the NIH or like a study that you read from an outlet or a publication that they've deemed contaminated.

因为这些群体一直都在妖魔化某些媒体来源。

Because these groups really demonize certain media sources they always have.

我的意思是，吉姆·琼斯，历史上最臭名昭著的邪教领袖之一，就非常有效地妖魔化了主流媒体。

I mean, like, Jim Jones, one of the most notorious cult leaders of all time, really effectively demonized the mainstream media.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

即使考虑到所有因素，这些媒体相对中立，包括科学文献，妖魔化媒体来源依然非常有效。

It's really effective to demonize media sources even if they are relatively unbiased, all things considered, and including scientific literature.

所以，尽管这听起来反直觉，但如果某人深陷于这些反科学团体中，我可能不会用疾控中心的引用材料来为你的立场辩护。

So I as counterintuitive as it feels if someone is really, really deep in one of those anti science groups, I might not defend your position with citations from the CDC.

是的。

Yeah.

相反，我可能会鼓励你只是去认可他们的为人。

And instead, I I might encourage, you know, just, like, recognizing their humanity.

这话说起来容易做起来难。

And this is easier said than done.

有些人，你可能需要暂时与他们保持距离，因为你很难与那些看起来已经无可救药的人展开对话。

There are some people who you might just need to, like, take a pause on your relationship with them, you know, because it it is really tough to get into conversations with someone who seems far gone.

但如果这是你真心关心的亲人，而你又不想与他们疏远，那就向他们展示你的同理心、同情心和倾听能力。

But if this is a loved one who you really care about and you have no interest in distancing yourself from them, then showing them your your empathy, your compassion, your listening skills.

因为归根结底，根据我所观察和报道的内容，我发自内心地相信，驱使他们走向这些团体和信念的，其实并不是这些观点本身。

Because ultimately, I do think from what I've observed and reported on, I do believe deep down in my heart that what is driving them toward this group and these beliefs is not really the ideas themselves.

而是那种归属感。

It's that sense of belonging.

这是一种在信息和社会关系上都极度混乱的时代中，寻找答案的感觉。

It's that sense of, you know, answers in a really chaotic time informationally and socially, relationally.

所以，如果你能仅仅通过陪伴他们、不表现出你可能想表现出的评判态度，来提供一种替代方案，这可能是最有希望的策略。

And so if you can give them an alternative just by being there and not seeming as judgmental as you might wanna seem, that might be the most hopeful strategy.

是的。

Yeah.

你之前提到，我们正生活在一个越来越封闭的时代。

You mentioned earlier that we are living in cultier and cultier times.

所以我必须问，你认为人工智能在这一切中扮演了什么角色？

So I have to ask, what role do you think AI plays in all of this?

因为人工智能，尤其是那些我们能与之对话的大型语言模型，往往过于谄媚。

Because AI, especially the large language models that have bots that we can have conversations with, tend to be so sycophantic.

哇。

Wow.

我的意思是，

I mean,

我们可以连续三天不停地讨论这个话题。

we could talk about this for three days straight.

这些大型语言模型聊天机器人所做的一些更加封闭化的事情，包括无条件地肯定你。

Among the cultier things that these LLMs, large language models chatbots might do are to affirm you unconditionally.

正如你所说，它们非常谄媚。

As you mentioned, they're sycophantic.

它们是马屁精。

They're suck ups.

它们总会说，‘这太有道理了’，即使你所说的内容完全毫无逻辑。

They will always say things like, oh, that makes so much sense even if what you're saying makes absolutely no sense at all.

它们通过增强你的自我认知、缓解羞耻感、提升自信心来完成所谓的‘自我认同工作’，并承担这种情感劳动。

They perform what's called ego work by propping up your sense of self, soothing shame, bolstering confidence, performing this emotional labor.

这之所以有效，是因为它们大量使用语言上的镜像反射。

And that's effective because they do a lot of linguistic mirroring.

每个人的专属聊天对话都像是一个定制的宗教领袖，因为它会逐渐学习你使用语言的方式、你的语义模式，并将它们反射回给你。

Everybody's bespoke chat is their own custom cult leader because it will start to learn the way that you use language, your semantic patterns, and reflect them back at you.

他们通过使用第一人称代词，营造出一种情感智能的假象，是的。

They create this sense that they're emotionally intelligent by, yeah, using those first person pronouns.

他们会对你或你生活中的人抛出各种似是而非的诊断。

They'll spew out these, like, pseudo diagnoses for you or people in your life.

他们会像L一样创造新词。

They'll like coineologisms the way that L.

罗恩·哈伯德就是这样做的。

Ron Hubbard did.

他们会说，你所取得的成就是这种‘时空学’什么的。

They'll say things like, oh, what you've achieved is, this chronomatic whatever.

他们会编造一些听起来像科学术语的词汇，让对话显得格外深刻。

They'll like make up these like scientific sounding terms that make it feel like a really profound conversation.

而且他们总是充满自信、不知疲倦地表达自己。

And they state themselves with such confidence and tirelessness.

显然，聊天机器人是24小时在线的。

Like, obviously, a chatbot is there twenty four seven.

它没有人类需要睡觉、吃饭和休息的限制。

It doesn't have the limitations of a human being that needs to sleep and eat and take a break.

所以，我认为人工智能聊天机器人本身就是一种邪教领袖。

And so, yeah, I think AI chatbots are their own form of cult leader.

那些为了利润而牺牲人类工作和生命的科技巨头，在某种意义上也是邪教领袖。

The tech overlords that are pursuing profit at the expense of human work and human lives are cult leaders in a sense.

而且，我在这段时期感到不安。

And, yeah, I I'm I'm nervous in these times.

我不能撒谎。

I can't lie.

我在这段时期感到不安。

I am nervous in these times.

是的。

Yeah.

在结束之前，我们想快速问几个问题，帮助听众更好地了解你。

Before we wrap up, we'd love to do just a quick rapid fire round of questions to help listeners get to know you.

好的。

Okay.

好吧。

Alright.

有什么与你工作无关的才能或爱好，是你非常喜欢，甚至愿意为此做一场完整的TED演讲的？

What's a talent or hobby unrelated to your work that you love so much that you could give a whole TED Talk about it.

好的。

Okay.

如何搭配一份完美的奶酪拼盘？

How to assemble a really good cheese plate?

哦。

Oh.

我其实真的很想了解这个。

I actually want to know this.

好的。

Okay.

因为我从不知道，比如，强烈奶酪的比例应该是多少

Because I never know, like, what is the ratio of, like, really strong cheeses

哦，我懂了。

Oh, to I got you.

还有软奶酪和硬奶酪的区别。

You know, and then soft versus hard.

是的。

Yeah.

天哪。

Oh, gosh.

这更像是餐前小吃拼盘。

Like it's an aperitivo spread.

是的，没错。

I yeah.

这不仅仅是奶酪而已。

It's it's it's more than just cheese.

但没错。

But yeah.

我明白你的意思。

I I got you.

好的。

Okay.

我需要跟进一下。

I I will need to follow-up.

好吧。

Alright.

如果你愿意分享的话，你上一次大笑是什么时候？

If you're up for sharing, when's the last time you laughed really hard?

天哪。

Oh my god.

我的丈夫和我整天在家里用滑稽的口音和虚构的暗语说话。

I mean, my husband and I speak in ridiculous accents and, like, secret fake languages in our house all day long.

最近他一直在用你这辈子听过的最糟糕的爱尔兰口音说话，简直让我笑得前仰后合。

And he's been speaking in the worst Irish accent you've ever heard in your life recently, and it makes me fall over cackling.

太棒了。

Love that.

好的。

Okay.

最后，你希望人们在听完你的演讲后，能学到什么、感受到什么、并采取什么行动？

And finally, what do you hope people will learn, feel, and do after hearing your talk?

我希望人们能受到启发，对别人的非理性多一些包容，对自己的非理性则多一些质疑。

I hope people will feel inspired to be a little more compassionate toward other people's irrationalities and skeptical of their own.

我喜欢这个观点。

I love that.

阿曼达·蒙特尔，非常感谢你，再次祝贺你的TED演讲。

Amanda Montell, thank you so much, and congrats again on your TED Talk.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我的荣幸。

My pleasure.

刚才那是阿曼达·蒙特尔在TED Next 2025上的演讲，与我艾莉丝·胡对话。

That was Amanda Montell at TED Next twenty twenty five and in conversation with me, Elise Hu.

如果你对TED的选题策划感兴趣，可以访问 ted.com/curationguidelines 了解更多信息。

If you're curious about TED's curation, find out more at ted.com/curationguidelines.

今天的内容就到这里。

And that's it for today.

本集由露西·利特尔制作，由阿莱哈德拉·萨拉扎尔剪辑，由TED研究团队核对事实。

This episode was produced by Lucy Little, edited by Alejandra Salazar, and fact checked by the TED research team.

《TED演讲每日》是TED音频合集的一部分。

TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective.

我们的团队包括玛莎·埃斯特瓦诺斯、奥利弗·弗里德曼、瑞安·格林、露西·利特尔、艾玛·陶布纳和通西卡·苏恩马里万。

Our team includes Martha Estevanos, Oliver Friedman, Ryan Green, Lucy Little, Emma Taubner, and Tonsika Sungmarnivan.

特别感谢达尼埃拉·巴拉萨佐、瓦伦蒂娜·博哈尼和常斑斑的支持。

Additional support from Daniela Balarazzo, Valentina Bohanini, and Banban Chang.

我是伊莉丝·胡。

I'm Elise Hu.

明天我会带着一个全新的想法回来，供你浏览。

I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

新加坡是世界上最具活力的城市之一，但生物学家菲利普·约翰斯对岛上的一种不同居民着迷。

Singapore is one of the busiest cities in the world, but biologist Philip Johns is fascinated by a different inhabitant on the island.

在高峰时段的市中心，水獭会彼此游近，而路上有成千上万的人正赶着去上班。

At rush hour downtown, the otters would swim toward each other, and there are literally tens of thousands of people who are on their way to work.

想法、情感与生物如何共存。

How ideas, emotions, and creatures coexist.

接下来请收听来自NPR的《TED播客汇》。

That's next time on the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

请在您收听播客的平台订阅并收听《TED播客汇》。

Listen and subscribe to the TED Radio Hour wherever you get your podcasts.