通过横跨一个大陆的烹饪之旅我学到的 | 迪韦伊尔·马隆加

宝贝，你已经知道裸卖空了。

Baby, you already know about naked short selling.

宝贝，你亲自做过做空股票，但你知道做空者曾经几乎毁掉超级碗那次事件吗？

Baby, you personally shorted stocks yourself, but do you know about the time short sellers ruined the Super Bowl, basically?

对我来说，我有点晚了，但当时就感觉不对劲，发生了什么？

For me, I was a little late, but red flags went up like, what is going on?

这真的太吓人了。

This is this is really scary.

在《星球金钱》节目中，我们揭示金钱背后的真相，解释钱是如何运作的。

At Planet Money, we get the story behind the money to explain how money works.

请在NPR应用或你收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

你正在收听《TED每日演讲》，我们每天为你带来新思想，激发你的好奇心。

You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day.

我是你的主持人伊莉丝·胡。

I'm your host, Elise Hu.

今天的演讲是我们全新推出的2025年TED研究员影片系列的一部分，专为TED Talks Daily的听众改编成播客形式。

Today's talk is part of our new twenty twenty five TED Fellows films adapted for podcasts just for our TED Talks Daily listeners.

这是我们在全年推出的特别系列节目之一，旨在展示TED研究员计划背后令人惊叹的故事，该计划支持着一个全球创新者网络。

This is part of a special series of episodes we released throughout the year, showcasing the incredible stories behind the TED Fellows program, which supports a network of global innovators.

今天，我们想向您介绍厨师兼烹饪创新者杜维尔·马拉nga。

Today, we'd like you to meet chef and culinary innovator, Duyvel Malanga.

马拉nga曾走遍非洲几乎每一个国家，亲自品尝来自农场和家庭厨房的风味，以了解那些赋予菜肴灵魂的传统。

Malanga has traveled to nearly every country in Africa, tasting flavors straight from farms and local kitchens to learn about the traditions that transform a dish.

如今，他在卢旺达经营一家烹饪中心，致力于培训来自全非洲的下一代顶级厨师，共同创作能够向世界分享各国烹饪秘密的美食。

Today, he runs a culinary center in Rwanda where he works to train the next generation of top chefs from across the continent, collaboratively crafting food that shares each country's culinary secrets with the world.

他分享了在尊重自身根源的同时，拥抱世界多样风味所带来的喜悦与意义。

He shares the importance of honoring where you're from while also embracing the diversity and joy of the world's many flavors.

在听完马拉nga的讲述后，请继续收听他与TED研究员项目总监莉莉·詹姆斯·奥尔兹的对话。

After we hear from Malonga, stick around for his conversation with Ted Fellows program director, Lily James Olds.

对于食物来说，一个好处是，它能让人们放下分歧，在边界上共享美食。

The good thing for, like, food bring people to give up, food on the border.

我相信新一代正在积极推动弘扬我们大陆令人惊叹的饮食遗产。

I believe the new generation really are pushing now to promote the amazing food heritage we have in the continent.

我叫乔瓦尼·马拉onga，是一名厨师。

My name is Giovanni Malonga and I'm a chef.

我曾在巴黎、德国、美国、日本和泰国的许多餐厅工作过。

I've worked in many restaurants from Paris, from Germany, US, Japan, Thailand.

我在全球高档餐厅的经历非常精彩。

My experience in fine dining restaurants around the world was amazing.

我学到了许多精湛的技艺。

I've learned amazing technique.

我结识了许多了不起的人。

I've met amazing people.

我意识到自己想更深入地了解泛非洲菜系。

I realized myself that I wanted to know more about Pan African cuisine.

于是我主动决定回到非洲大陆。

And I took the initiative like to go back to the continent.

我想学习。

I wanted to learn.

我想回到学校，回到祖母的学校。

I wanted to go back to school, to the grandmother's school.

我花了两年时间在非洲旅行。

I took two years just traveling in Africa.

我了解了食物、文化，也看到了非洲大陆的历史。

I've learned about food, about culture and I saw about the continent history.

我去向祖母学习非洲料理。

And I go to learn my grandmother about African cuisine.

首先，这不仅仅是非洲菜，而是每个国家的料理。

First, it's not just African cuisine, it's country's cuisine.

非洲是一个大陆，我们有54个国家。

African is a continent, like we have 54 countries.

我走访了48个国家以上。

I've used it more than 48 countries.

我从喀麦隆开始。

I started with Cameroon.

那太棒了。

That was amazing.

我就像一个正在学习新事物的孩子。

I was like a baby who was learning new things.

我最先学到的是国菜。

The first things I've learned was the national dish.

它叫恩多勒。

Call it Ndole.

他们说这是一道国王级别的食谱。

They call it like a recipe for a king.

如果有人为你做恩多勒，那意味着这个人很爱你。

If someone cooks Ndole for you, it looks like the person loves you.

因为恩多勒需要花很多时间。

Because Ndole takes a lot of time.

这大概要花六到七个小时，而且需要很多食材。

It's, let's say, seven six hours, and it's a lot of ingredients.

当我去了村庄，我和一位祖母一起为我的朋友们做了这道菜。

When I went to the village, we did it together with a grandmother for my friends.

我们整整忙了一天，但味道非常棒。

And we spent all day, but the taste was amazing.

很难说清楚我学了多少道菜，但我学了很多，非常多。

It's difficult to say how many recipes I've learned, but I've learned many recipes, a lot.

在尼日利亚，我们有200多个部落，每个部落都有自己的特色菜。

In Nigeria we have more than 200 tribe, and every tribe we have a different dish.

所以我说，整个非洲的菜式多得数以亿计。

So I can describe we have more than a million and billion recipes in the continent.

在塞内加尔，雅萨是一道炖菜，但主要用的食材是洋葱。

In Senegal, yassa is a stew, but the main product they use are onions.

我们用青香蕉来做这道菜。

We run that green banana.

他们称之为quesaphoreum。

They call it quesaphoreum.

有时他们会加入鸡肉，或者像炖菜一样制作。

Sometimes they mix with chicken or like it's like a stew.

在刚果民主共和国，fumbua是用森林里常见的叶子制作的。

In Congo, DRC, fumbua is made by so it's the leaves that find it more in the forest.

香料对我来说非常重要。

Spice is very important for me.

香料就是生命。

Spices is life.

潘吉亚辣椒是世界上最好的辣椒之一。

Pangaea pepper is one of the best pepper forming in the world.

潘吉亚辣椒带有一丝甜味，接近香茅。

The Pangaea has something sweetness and so it's close to lemongrass.

你必须亲自尝一尝才能真正理解。

You must taste it really to understand.

Pangaea胡椒只生长在Pangaea地区。

Pangaea pepper grows only in Pangaea region.

我喜欢去参观

I like to go to visit

去收获Penja胡椒，因为大多数时候人们都在唱歌，而这正好是芒果成熟的季节。

the harvest of Penja pepper because most of the time the people are singing and it's the same time of mango when mango arrives.

我个人在那里时，喜欢去农场帮忙，也会吃芒果。

And personally, when I'm there, I like to go help the people in the farm and I also eat mango.

在非洲的不同国家，人们都会庆祝食物。

In different countries in Africa, people celebrate food.

人们不是仅仅吃饭，而是在庆祝食物。

People don't eat but we celebrate food.

这是生活的一部分。

It's part of our life.

当你品尝一道菜时，首先就能了解种植这些食材的人，了解背后的故事。

When you taste the dish, firstly you know people who are growing product, you know the story behind.

我觉得这非常不同。

I think it's very different.

我当时在测试，但我已经非常有经验了。

I was testing but I was so experienced.

当我身处德国时，我在世界顶级餐厅之一工作。

When I was in Germany, was working in one of the best restaurants in the world.

我没有与产品建立起联系，因为你可能买到一根胡萝卜，但它来自市场。

I didn't get the connection with the product because you can have a carrot but it comes from the market.

你不知道它背后的故事。

You don't know the story behind.

那是一个巨大的差异。

That was a big difference.

我第一次在喀麦隆品尝胡萝卜时，感觉完全不同。

My first time that I tasted the carrot when I was in Cameroon, I was different.

首先，它很甜，风味十足，口感也非常不同。

Number one, like it was sweet and flavor ful and the texture was very different.

而且那是一根很小的胡萝卜，不是我们在欧洲通常用的那种大胡萝卜。

And it was a very small carrot, was not the big carrot that we usually use in Europe.

我感到非常惊讶，我与这款产品、与当地人以及与它的原产地建立了联系。

And I was very surprised, I was connected with the product, with the people and with the origin.

旅行之后，我的目标是想在一个地方分享我在不同国家学到的东西。

After travelling, my ambition was like I want to share what I've learned in different countries in one place.

烹饪创新村是我们和我的团队共同创建的一个食品园区。

Culinary Innovation Village is a food campus that we have created with my team.

我们有一个培训中心。

We have a training centre.

我们培训的是未来的顶级厨师，也就是下一代厨师。

We train the next generation after, let's say, the big chef of tomorrow.

学生们来自非洲的不同国家。

The students come from different countries in Africa.

目前我们有七个国家的学生，他们各自带来了一道新的菜肴。

From now we have seven nationalities and they bring another new dish.

他们为萨达马带来了另一种耕作方式。

They bring Sadama another new way of farming.

这是一场我和学生之间的巨大交流。

It's a huge exchange between me and the student.

当我旅行时，我会从不同国家带回许多种子。

When I travel, I bring many seeds from different countries.

我们拥有超过一百种水果和蔬菜品种。

We have more than 100 varieties of fruit and vegetables.

我们教学生如何耕种。

We teach our students how to farm.

此外，我们还有一家名为Mesamalonga的餐厅，在那里我们主要呈现这些美食体验。

And also we have a restaurant, Mesamalonga, where we do most of them food experience.

我们的目标是推广非洲的食材和香料。

The ambition is promote the African ingredients and spices.

我更关注人与产品背后的故事。

I focus more on the story of people and the product.

对我来说，是分享与教育。

For me, is sharing and education.

我未来的愿景是在非洲的许多地区建立更多这样的地方。

My vision in the future is to have many places like this in many regions in Africa.

全球正在发生许多变化。

Many things are happening globally.

现在人们为了美食而旅行。

People are travelling now for food.

非洲菜系正发挥着重要作用。

African cuisine is playing a big role.

我们真心希望未来人们谈论非洲美食，就像谈论意大利美食一样。

We want really in the future that people can talk about African food like they talk about Italian food.

人们可以谈论尼日利亚美食，还有刚果、卢旺达和南非美食。

And people can talk about Nigerian food and let's say Congolese, Rwandese, and South African food.

就像人们谈论美国美食一样。

Like, also people talk about American food.

接下来是马兰加与TED研究员项目总监莉莉·詹姆斯·奥尔德斯之间的特别对话。

And now a special conversation between Malanga and TED Fellows program director, Lily James Olds.

他们讨论了他早年在欧洲的烹饪经历、是什么促使他回到家乡，以及对他而言，最重要的厨房永远是祖母的厨房。

They discuss his early culinary days in Europe, what led him back home, and why the most important kitchen, for him at least, will always be grandma's.

短暂休息后，我们将立即呈现这段内容。

That's coming up right after a short break.

也许你已经了解裸卖空。

Maybe you already know about naked short selling.

也许你本人也曾进行过股票做空，但你知道做空者曾经几乎毁掉超级碗吗？

Maybe you personally shorted stocks yourself, but do you know about the time short sellers ruined the Super Bowl, basically?

对我来说，我有点滞后，但当时就察觉到了一些警示信号：这到底发生了什么？

For me, I was a little late, but red flags went up like, what is going on?

这真的太可怕了。

This is this is really scary.

在《星球金钱》节目中，我们讲述金钱背后的故事，解释金钱是如何运作的。

At planet money, we get the story behind the money to explain how money works.

在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

欢迎，马兰加。

Welcome, Malanga.

很高兴你今天能来到我们这里。

I'm so happy that you're here with us today.

很高兴能和你们在一起。

I'm happy to be with you.

我想回到你与美食之旅的起点。

I would love to take it back to the beginning of your journey with food.

我想知道，你能否告诉我你是在哪里长大的，以及你最早关于食物的一些记忆？

And I'm wondering if you could tell me about where you grew up and some of your earliest memories of food.

我出生在刚果布拉柴维尔。

So I was born in Congo, Brazzaville.

我出生在林佐洛的一个小村庄。

I was born in one very small village in Linzolo.

它距离刚果（布）首都大约一小时车程。

It's, let's say, one hour from the capital of Congo, Brazzaville.

所以我是在一个家庭环境中长大的。

So I grew up in the family.

我从小就生活在充满美食和农耕氛围的家庭里。

I can see like foodie family and farming.

我的祖母开了一家餐厅。

My grandmother owned a restaurant.

那家餐厅非常有名，但她只做一道菜，专注于木薯叶和木薯籽。

The restaurant was very famous, but she was doing only one dish, focusing on cassava leaves and cassava roe.

那道菜叫什么名字？

So what was the name of that dish?

在我的语言里，它叫萨卡萨卡。

In my language, they call it Saka Saka.

好的。

Okay.

这是一种木薯叶。

So it's a cassava leaves.

在许多非洲国家都有这道菜，比如喀麦隆、加蓬和卢旺达，他们称之为Isombe。

You have it in many African countries, like in Cameroon, in Gabon, and in Rwanda, they call it Isombe.

在马达加斯加和坦桑尼亚也有类似的菜肴。

You have the same in Madagascar, you have the same in Tanzania.

但每个国家都有自己独特的做法。

But each country, they have their own recipe.

刚果的做法与卢旺达或加蓬的做法非常不同。

So a Congolese recipe is very different to Rwanda and recipe or the one from Gabon.

那你小时候是务农的吗？

And so did you grow up farming?

因为你提到你祖母开了一家餐厅，对吧？

Because you said that your grandmother had a restaurant, right?

没错。

Exactly.

你知道吗，当我们谈论家庭时，非洲的家庭规模远不止二十人，通常在一个村庄里有上百人之多。

You know, when we talk about family, African family is more than 20, let's say more than 100 people in the same villages.

所以家庭成员中，大多数人都是务农的。

So like a family member, most of them was farming.

当我十一二岁的时候，我祖母开了一家餐馆。

And my grandmother owned the restaurant when I was 11, 12.

我搬到德国，在那里开始了我的求学之路。

I moved to Germany, started my school journey there.

那里的饮食文化很不一样。

So the food culture was different.

我认为这种饮食上的挑战真正激励了我开始在家做些小食。

I think that challenge, the food challenge inspired me really to start to do small food at home.

我觉得我的美食故事就是从那里开始的。

I think my food story started from there.

这太棒了。

That's amazing.

那你第一次下厨是什么时候？你是怎么知道自己想当厨师的？

And so what were your first experiences cooking and when did you know that you wanted to be a chef?

我想我决定成为厨师的第一次经历，是在我来到德国的时候。那时候，父母总是逼着你去当医生、飞行员或总统。

I think the first experience, let's say, that I decided I would be a chef, that came when I when I came in Germany, when you are young, a parent really push you and send to the school to be a doctor, to be a pilot, to be a president.

他们从不会鼓励你去当厨师。

They don't push you to be a chef.

但当我来到德国后，德国的饮食文化让我大为震惊。

But after when when I came to Germany, the German food scene was shocking for me.

是的。

Yeah.

我小时候吃的是美味的泛非洲食物。

I grew up, like, with, with a tasty and, some Pan African, product.

来到德国后，满眼都是土豆和各种肉类，这让我感到非常震撼。

And came to Germany was like potatoes and all of this meat culture was something shock for me.

这确实是个挑战，但正是这个挑战激励我在年轻时就开始自己做饭。

It was a challenge, but the challenge really inspired me to start in young age to do my food myself, that cooking for myself.

而且，是的，这个爱好塑造了今天的我。

And, yeah, the hobby turned to the what the person I am today.

那你刚开始在厨房里捣鼓食物的时候多大？

And how old were you when you started, you know, messing around in the kitchen and with food?

我那时候14、15岁。

I was 14, 15.

哇。

Wow.

是的。

Yeah.

太棒了。

That's amazing.

而且，我很好奇。

And, you know, I'm curious.

你曾在一些世界顶级餐厅工作过。

So you've worked in some of the world's top restaurants.

我的意思是，在巴黎、德国、日本。

I mean, in Paris, Germany, Japan.

我非常想听听，是什么促使你暂时离开高端餐饮的世界，花了两年时间横跨非洲48个国家旅行，这太了不起了。

I'd love to hear about a little more of what inspired you to take some time away from that, you know, world of high end dining and to spend those two years traveling across 48 countries in Africa, which is incredible.

我的意思是，首先我只能想象，那段时间你吃了多少令人惊叹的食物。

I mean, first of all, I can only imagine how much amazing food you ate during that time.

但我真的很想了解，是什么促使你做出这样的转变？

But would just love to hear about how you what kind of inspired that that change for you?

我在德国的世界国际学校接受过教育。

Let's say I studied in the World International School in Germany.

小时候，我的志向是回到非洲大陆。

When I was young, my ambition was like to go back on the continent.

但在重返非洲大陆之前，我想更深入地了解全球的饮食文化。

But before to go back in the continent in Africa, I wanted to understand more about global food scene.

于是我一直在顶级餐厅工作，并建立了许多联系。

And so I was working in the very high end restaurant and, get a lot of connection.

我了解一些泛非菜系，但我想更深入地理解它们。

I knew some Pan African cuisines and I wanted to understand more.

所以我旅行学习，向他人学习新的烹饪技巧、新食谱、新食材，体验世界各地不同的风味。

That's why I was traveling and learn for another people and learn new technique, learn new recipe, learn new ingredients and get the new taste for different countries in the world.

那是一段奇妙的经历。

That was amazing experience.

直到今天，我依然会继续旅行，以便学习这些技艺，并将它们带回当地。

Still today, I will continue to travel so that I can learn from what the technique and I can bring back the technique in there.

比如，我可以把其他非洲国家的技艺带回来。

Like, I can bring the technique for another countries in Africa.

你能再多分享一点吗？

Can you share a little bit more?

我之前听过你提到过，但在这两年环游非洲期间，你具体学到了哪些技巧和工具呢？

I mean, you talked about this before, but just what were some of those techniques and tools that you learned during your time during those two years traveling around the continent?

这些经历如何影响了你今天的烹饪理念和实践？

And how do they inform your practice and your cooking today?

所以我学到了很多技术。

So I've learned many techniques.

我认为第一个是农产品的种植技术，这非常重要。

I think the first one is the product, the farming technique, that's very important.

我从农田到餐桌学到了更多。

I have learned more from the farm to the table.

我了解了发酵保存以及风味。

I've learned about fermentation conservation and also the taste.

我在非洲大陆不同村庄学到的所有技术，帮助我创建并创新了一家小餐厅。

All techniques I've learned from the different villages now in the continent in Africa helped me to create and so to innovate little restaurant.

那么为什么发酵特别重要呢？

And why is fermentation specifically so important?

我住在小村庄里，是在村庄长大的，现在我仍然住在小村庄，非洲的许多村庄都没有电。

So me, I live in little village and I grew up in a village and now I'm living in a small village, many village in Africa, they don't have electricity.

所以他们通过发酵来保存食材。

So they they conserve product, and that's what they fermentate product.

在发酵过程中，食材会呈现出惊人的风味。

During that fermentation and and product is give amazing taste.

这种风味非常依赖于你要发酵或保存的食材。

And that sort of taste is very dependent on the product that you're going to fermentate or going to conserve.

是的。

Yeah.

我有幸参观了烹饪创新村，并品尝了一些这些美味佳肴。

I mean, I was lucky enough to get to visit Culinary Innovation Village and got to eat some of these delights.

这真是一次令人难以置信的体验，可以说完全触动了所有的感官，正如你所描述的那样。

And it really was just such an incredible experience, I would say, for every part of the senses, right, of exactly what you're describing.

我想与此相关的是，你提到在许多非洲社区，人们吃饭不只是为了果腹，而是在庆祝食物。

You know, I guess connected to that, you've said that in many African communities, people don't just eat, they celebrate food.

我很想听听这些不同的庆祝活动是什么样子的，你会如何描述它们的不同之处？

And I'd love to hear a little bit more what do some of those different celebrations look like, and how would you describe that as different?

你知道吗？在这些庆祝活动中，食物所被珍视的方式，是否与你曾待过的其他厨房或地方有所不同？

You know, the way that food is valued perhaps in some of those celebrations than in other kitchens or other places that you've spent time?

我去过的非洲大多数地方，人们早上醒来就去上班。

Most of the places I was traveling in Africa is like when the people wake up in the morning, they go to work.

人们根本不谈论早餐或午餐。

Like people don't talk about about a breakfast or lunch.

对我来说，人们聚在一起分享和庆祝食物的时间，就是一种庆祝时刻。

And the time people come together for sharing and celebrating food for me was like a is a it was a celebration time.

人们从工作中回来。

Like people are coming back from the work.

从农田、从各个地方回来后，大家坐在一起分享食物，这才是真正讲故事、倾听彼此挑战、分享食物和饮品的时刻。

That coming back from the for the farming that coming back from wherever we are and sit down together and share the food is the time you have story is the time like listen the the challenge for some people and share what you share food, share drink.

对我来说，这就是一种庆祝。

And that that to me was like a celebration.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

我热爱这种以食物为核心的日常庆祝。

I love the daily celebration with food.

这感觉真好。

That feels so good.

对于那些从未尝试过喀麦隆、尼日利亚、卢旺达或其他地方菜肴的听众，你们建议从哪里开始呢？

So for people listening who may have never tried a dish from Cameroon, Nigeria, Rwanda, or beyond, where should they begin?

另外，我想问问那些有志于成为家庭厨师的人，你们推荐哪些食谱让他们在家尝试制作？

And also, I guess, the aspiring home chefs, what recipes would you recommend that they seek out and try to make at home?

我会说，朋友，跟着你的心走。

I would say just my friend, follow listen to heart.

我个人没有最喜欢的食物。

Personally, I don't have a favorite food.

我没有最喜欢的食材。

I don't have a favorite, ingredients.

我没有最喜欢的香料。

I don't have a favorite, spices.

所以，看你感觉如何？

So depend how do you feel?

每天我都会发现一些新东西。

Like every day I discover something new.

今天，我尝到了一种以前从未吃过的食物。

And, like, today, I've discovered something I I never tasted in my life.

我觉得这是每天都要吃的最佳食物。

And I say this is the best thing to eat every day.

我知道明天我还会发现别的新东西。

And I know that tomorrow I'll discover another things.

我知道。

I know.

真的要看你感觉如何。

Really depend how to feel.

所以你的意思是你很圆滑。

So you're being diplomatic is what you're saying.

你并不偏爱某一种食物。

You're not picking favorites.

是的

Yeah.

没错

Exactly.

我建议人们去访问整个非洲大陆，至少涵盖五个区域：北非、南非、东非、西非和中非。

I'll recommend people to visit the continent, at least the the five region, from North, South, East, West, and also Central Africa.

我推荐你尝一尝恩多勒。

I recommend you eat to do Ndole.

恩多勒是喀麦隆的国菜之一。

Ndole is one of the national dish from Cameroon.

太棒了。

It's amazing.

味道非常浓郁。

It's very rich.

恩多勒是用叶子做的，比如苦菠菜，可以搭配虾，有时也会加牛肉。

And Ndole is made by leaves, like bitter spinach, and can mix it with shrimps, sometimes with beef.

我喜欢吃这个。

Me, I like to eat it.

我可以每天吃。

I can eat it every day.

听起来很棒。

That sounds great.

我只是想回到那个话题，因为我觉得当你谈到祖母的学校时，这是一个非常有力的例子，展示了拓展学习的方式。

I just want to go back to because I think it's a really kind of powerful example of expanding one's learning when you talk about the grandmother's school.

为什么这种跨代学习对你如此重要？

Why is this kind of cross generational learning so important to you?

当我旅行时，我开始去大城市参观。

When I was traveling, I started to visit the city, like the big city.

我发现在大城市里的酒店并不提供泛非菜系。

I realized myself in big city like hotel, they don't serve the Pan African cuisines.

大多数时候，你去酒店，他们只给你提供国际美食。

Most of the time when you go to hotel, they serve you like just international food.

我感到很失望。

And I was disappointed.

祖母曾建议我去村里。

One of grandmother had advised me to go to the village.

如果你想吃正宗的非洲菜，就去村里。

If you want to eat the authentic African cuisine, go to the village.

如果你学的是现代菜系，对我来说就像什么也做不了，因为那已经是现代的了，我和那种食物没有联系。

If you learn like modern cuisine, for me it's like I can do nothing because it's already modern and I don't have connections with that food.

但当我去村里，向祖母学习时，我与食物的联系更紧密了。

But I have more connection when I go to the village and learn by grandmother.

对我来说，最好的学校是祖母的学校。

For me, the best school is the grandmother school.

我认为那是我一生中上过的最好的学校之一。

I think that was one of the best school I've been in my life.

你学到很多技巧，了解食物的味道，还学到食物背后的故事。

You learn many technique, you learn how the food test and also learn story beyond the food.

因此，我教导我们的学生——这些年轻人——经常邀请祖母来亲自教他们，因为对我来说，深入了解产品和环境非常重要。

And so that's why I teach to our students, the young people who teach, really invite grandmother sometimes to come to teach them because for personally, very important to understand more about the product and environment.

这些知识，我们都是从祖母那里学来的。

And this, we learn it by grandmother.

我想稍微向大家描述一下，来美食创新村参观是什么体验，而梅扎·马拉nga你们那家出色的餐厅，现在就坐落于此。

And I wanna describe for people for a second, Malanga, what it's like to come visit the Culinary Innovation Village, which is also where Meza Malanga, your amazing restaurant, is now based.

从基加利出发，要开三个到四个小时的漫长蜿蜒山路，风景美极了。

So from Kigali, it's a long three, four hour driving, winding road, which is gorgeous.

然后你必须乘船前往一个半岛。

And then you have to take a boat to get to a peninsula.

你是怎么决定把你的空间设在这里的？

How did you decide that that was where you wanted your space to be?

当我住在欧洲时，我获得了许多机会，也接触了很多大型团体。

So when I was living in Europe, I get a lot of opportunity and a lot of big groups.

比如说，一家大公司想和我合作。

Let's say, a big company wanted to work with me.

我拒绝了所有去卢旺达的邀请。

And I deny all of this offer to come to Rwanda.

我的所有朋友、所有家人问我，你疯了吗？

And all my friend, all my all my family say, are you mad?

你为什么要去卢旺达？

Why are going to Rwanda?

基加利是个小国家。

Kigali is small country.

我说我知道自己想要什么，所以我来了卢旺达，在基加利启动了我的项目。

I say I know what I want and I came to Rwanda, I opened my project in Kigali.

大家都说好吧，明白了你为什么想去基加利；但当我告诉他们，现在我要离开基加利，去一个小村庄时。

All people say okay good, understand why you wanted to go to Kigali And when I tell them, okay, now I'm leaving Kigali, I'm going to the small village.

所有人都觉得我疯了。

All people was mad.

他们说，你疯了吗？

Say, are you mad?

就连卢旺达政府也问：你确定你要做这件事吗？

Even the government in Rwanda say, are you sure what I'm going to do?

所以我来库林创新村的原因是，你知道，现在人们旅行是为了美食。

So the reason why I would come to visit Kulin Innovation Village is like, you know, today people are traveling for food.

我个人希望创造一个可以与他人分享的环境。

Personally, I wanted to create an environment that I can share with people.

我想打造一个空间，让人们可以来体验，比如我吃东西的时候，同时也能了解非洲。

I wanted to create a space that people can come and learn like I'm going to eat, but like so I can learn about Africa.

我的目标是推广非洲的产品，打造一个以分享和教育为核心的泛非空间。

The ambition is like promote the product that you find in Africa to create Pan African space focusing on sharing and education.

所以在库林创新村，我们有一个发酵屋。

So at Kulinanovation village, we have a fermentation house.

人们可以来这里学习发酵知识。

People can come and learn about fermentation.

你可以来了解香料以及背后的故事。

You can come and learn about spices and so the story beyond.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

你认为这个愿景对非洲大陆的未来为何如此重要？

And why do you think this vision is so important for the future of the continent?

我认为食物与生态系统息息相关，而如今我们的生态系统正在衰退。

I think food connected to the ecosystem, and now our ecosystem is dying.

我认为所有人都知道气候变化以及相关问题正在发生。

And I think all people knows that what's happening with the climate change and everything.

因此，我们的目标是不再依赖其他国家和外来食物。

And so the ambition to don't be dependent on other people and other countries for food.

因此，我们的目标是培训人们使用本地产品，因为作为一名厨师，我负有责任。

And so the ambition is to train people on using local product, because as a chef, I have responsibility.

我们有一个没有固定菜单的概念。

We have a concept that don't have a menu.

我们只是等待大地给予我们什么，然后取用大地提供的食材，加以一点魔法般的转化，与我们的客人分享。

Just we wait what the earth gives us And we take what earth gives us, we give a little, let's say, some magic like this, the transformation that we do, and to share with our guests.

是的，明天的食物不是非洲的，不是美国的，也不是法国的。

Yeah, the food of tomorrow is not African is not American is not French.

明天的食物是人们使用身边本地食材制作的食物。

The food of tomorrow is the food that people use product that they have in the corner.

我们创建了一个名为‘厨师交流’的项目。

We have created a program called it Chefs Exchange.

我们欢迎来自哥伦比亚、埃塞俄比亚、乌干达、纽约以及世界各地的厨师。

We are welcoming chefs from Colombian, from Ethiopian, from Uganda, from New York, and from different places.

他们来拜访我们，了解我们如何耕种、如何创作、如何创新。

They came to visit us to understand more how we do, how we farm, how we create, how we innovate.

这是一个分享理念的地方，探讨我们对今天和明天食物的看法。

It's a space to share the philosophy and how we think about the food of today and tomorrow.

所以我认为这就是影响力。

And so I think that's the impact.

我们所创造的全球影响，是一种新的耕作方式，一种为更美好的非洲、更美好的世界、更美好的明天而烹饪的方式。

The the global impact that we are creating is another way to farm, is another way to cook for the better Africa, tomorrow, for the better world, for tomorrow.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

你知道，我想到你们在烹饪创新村的做法与众不同，我特别兴奋地看到你们培训团队中有这么多女性厨师。

You know, I think connected to how you do things different at Culinary Innovation Village, I also was really excited to see how many women chefs you had as part of the group that you were training.

显然，性别差距非常大，‘厨师’这个头衔通常只给男性，而女性往往只被视为家庭厨师。

Obviously, there's such a big gender divide, and that title of chef is often put on men and women are often left as the home cooks.

你如何看待同时对男性和女性进行教学和培训呢？

How do you think about teaching and training in that way, both men and women together?

我小时候，像大多数时候一样，只有女性在做饭，也就是厨师。

I grew up, like most of the time only woman was cooking, like, chefs.

当我去德国，刚开始在烹饪学校学习时，发现男性比女性多得多。

And and when I went to to Germany, when I start my culinary junior at school, was more men's than women.

我当时很惊讶。

And I was surprised.

我问自己：为什么？

I was asking my question, why?

世界现在正在变化。

The world is changing now.

如今，越来越多的女性厨师获得了星级认可。

Today, you have more female chefs that are getting star.

所以，事情正在改变。

So like, the things are changing.

我们向女性学习。

We learn from women.

我们向家人学习。

We learn from family.

这是我们最早从祖母那里学到的技能。

That is our first skill set to get it to the grandmother.

也许在其他国家情况略有不同，但我们真诚欢迎所有愿意学习的人，以激励未来的人们。

Maybe another country, maybe somewhat different, but we really welcome all people who want to learn and so to inspire people in the future.

对。

Right.

好的，再问一个我特别感兴趣的问题，因为我本人非常热爱烹饪。

Okay, one more question from which is kind of my the nerdy thing since I love to cook so much myself.

所以，当我来到你的空间时，我很幸运地看到了你收藏的大量来自不同厨师的烹饪书，其中许多来自非洲大陆。

So, obviously, when I came to your space, I was lucky enough to witness your incredible collection of cookbooks from different chefs, many from the continent.

我知道你目前正在编写自己的烹饪书。

And I know that you are currently working on your own cookbook.

你能否推荐两本能体现非洲大陆美食的烹饪书？

What are two cookbooks that you'd recommend that highlight food from the continent?

当我走访非洲不同国家时，我常问当地人：‘妈妈，你会做饭，但你们有烹饪书吗？’

So when I was traveling different countries in Africa, like, was asking about cookbook, okay, mama, know how to cook, but you do have a cookbook.

我得到的大部分回答是：我意识到，在非洲许多国家，人们并没有像家庭食谱那样的烹饪书，这些食谱通常是母亲传给女儿，女儿再传给子女，代代相传，就像一棵树一样。

And most of the response I get like, I realized like, in many countries in Africa, many people don't have like a cookbook, like family recipe that really people share it like from mama to the daughter, from daughter to the kids like go by grandmother is like a tree.

我记得有一次去一个村庄，有人告诉我：‘如果你想吃最棒的花生酱，你必须去那户人家。’

You know, I remember again, I went to the village and told me, okay, if you want to eat the best peanut sauce, you must go to this family.

如果你想吃最棒的山药汤，你必须去那户人家，因为他们有最棒的食谱。

If you want to eat the best yam soup, you must go this family that this somebody have the best recipe.

对，对。

Right, right.

这正是我书中要写的故事，这类学习的故事。

That's exactly the story I'm writing in my in my book, that's kind of stories like learning.

但你知道，烹饪没有国界，所以我建议人们保持开放，打破人们对泛非菜系的种种刻板印象。

But you know, cooking don't have border and that's why I recommend people to be open and to move all of this cliche that people have for Pan African cuisine.

现在有越来越多的美食游客，全球范围内，许多非洲厨师正使用泛非食材获得奖项，人们也对非洲食物的现状充满好奇。

We are getting a lot of food tourists And so now when you see worldwide many African chefs, they are getting award by using Pan African ingredients, and people are really curious to understand more what's happening in foods in Africa.

我们对此持开放态度。

And we are open for that.

是的。

Yeah.

我们非常高兴欢迎所有这些对非洲美食感兴趣的人。

We are very happy to welcome All these people are open for the good food in Africa.

所以听起来我们应该等你的食谱出版，然后就能一次性了解所有五个故事了

And so it sounds like we should wait until your cookbook comes out, and then we'll get all the five in one, the stories

还有所有的食谱。

and all the recipes.

所以第一本书会比较简单一些，但我正在着手写的另一本书会后续推出。

So the the first book will come would be more, like, simple, but another one would come that I'm working on.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

我等不及了。

I cannot wait.

好的。

Okay.

非常感谢你这次的对话，马拉nga。

Well, thank you so much for this conversation, Malanga.

正如我多次告诉你的那样，能参观你美丽、非凡、充满灵感的空间真是太棒了，也感谢你今天的这次对话。

It was as I told you many times, it was such a treat to get to visit your gorgeous, incredible, inspiring space, and thank you for this conversation today.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

刚才出场的是杜维尔·马拉onga，2025年TED研究员。

That was Duyvel Malonga, a 2025 TED Fellow.

如需了解更多关于TED研究员项目的信息，以及观看所有TED研究员的影片，请访问 fellows.ted.com。

To learn more about the TED Fellows program and watch all the TED Fellows films, we invite you to go to fellows.ted.com.

今天的节目就到这里。

And that's it for today.

本集由露西·利特尔制作，由阿莱杭德拉·萨拉扎尔剪辑，由伊娃·达舍核对事实。

This episode was produced by Lucy Little, edited by Alejandra Salazar, and fact checked by Eva Dasher.

片头播放的音频来自迪维亚·加丹吉和欧文·麦克莱恩制作的短片。

The audio you heard at the top comes from the short film made by Divya Gadangy and Owen McClain.

故事由科里·哈吉姆编辑，由伊恩·洛制作。

Story edited by Corey Hajim and produced by Ian Lowe.

视频制作主管是瑟林·多尔玛。

Video production manager is Sering Dolma.