艺术的未来会是怎样的？视觉特效艺术家与策展人给出答案 | 罗伯·布雷多和诺拉·阿特金森

您正在收听TED Talks Daily，我们每天为您带来激发好奇心的新观点。我是主持人Elise Hu。我们的原创系列节目《Ted Intersections》第三季回归了。该节目呈现演讲者与专家之间即兴对话，探讨他们专业领域交叉的主题。随着人工智能和快速发展的新技术出现，艺术的未来会是什么模样？

You're listening to TED Talks Daily where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hu. Our original series, Ted Intersections, is back for a third season. The show features unscripted conversations between speakers and experts taking on subjects at the intersection of their expertise. With the advent of AI and rapidly changing new technologies, what will the future of art look like?

在第三季首期跨界对话中，工艺策展人Nora Atkinson与视觉效果艺术家Rob Bredow共同探讨这个问题。以《星球大战》《夺宝奇兵》等粉丝挚爱电影作品闻名的Rob，以及将火人节带入史密森尼博物馆的Nora，将深入探讨创造力的未来、他们对新科技的热爱，以及如何在作品中保留人类灵魂。

In this first intersections conversation of season three, craft curator Nora Atkinson sits down with visual effects artist Rob Bredow to answer this question. Rob, known for his work on fan favorite movies like Star Wars and Indiana Jones, and Nora, who brought Burning Man to the Smithsonian, dive deep into the future of creativity, their love of new tech, and how they keep the human soul in their work.

我认为大多数艺术家的第一反应——我的第一反应是：这似乎是个糟糕的主意。我不希望机器抢走我的工作。但当你开始使用它时，你会意识到：哦，其实我很安全。机器做不到我能做的事，但它确实能帮我完成这个环节。然后你逐渐发现工作流程中那些能辅助你的细节。

Most artists, I think, our first reaction, my first reaction was like, well, that seems like a really bad idea. I don't want a machine taking over my job. And then when you start using it, you realize like, oh, okay, I'm very safe. The machine can't do what I can do, but actually it does help me with this one part here. And then you start finding little parts of the workflow that helps you.

这时它就变成了像更好用的画笔那样的工具。我认为到这个阶段，我们就实现了真正有益的突破。在你所处的博物馆策展领域，你如何看待将AI作为工具之一创作的艺术？你觉得它会逐渐融入吗？还是要等十到二十年后才会被纳入艺术范畴？

Then it becomes a tool like a better paintbrush. At that point, we've achieved something that's actually gonna have a really nice benefit, I think. How do you see, like in the space that you're in, in museums, in curation, how do you see art that has AI used as one of the tools in it? Do you see it making its way in? Is gonna be ten or twenty years down the line because it's gonna be something that gets considered art much later in the scheme of things?

目前有很多作品以AI为核心创作手段，或至少将其作为制作环节之一。但遗憾的是，这个领域进入公众视野的创作者还很少。我希望这些壁垒能被更多打破。

There's a lot of work being done that's using AI, either as the main focus of the work or at least as part of the production of the work. Right. And I think it's unfortunate right now that there are very few people who've made it into the public eye in that realm. Right. And I I hope that a lot more of those those barriers get broken down.

部分原因在于新技术的光环效应，人们还在按既定方式使用它。但我最欣赏的作品往往诞生于创作者开始尝试突破技术限制的阶段。这正是我期待看到的。

I think in part, there's also the sort of gloss of the new technology and people are using it the way it's supposed to be used. But all of my favorite work typically is when people get to the point with the technology that they start to try to break it. Yes. And that's what I'm really looking forward to seeing.

确实会很有趣。要知道我们对AI的使用更多是让它执行特定需求。因为虽然创作过程充满艺术性，但也很商业化。我们要连续处理大量镜头。

Yeah, that'll be really interesting. And that's, you know, our uses of AI tend to be more about trying to get it to do what we need it to do, right? Because as our process is very artistic, but it's very commercial as well. We're doing a lot of work. We're doing a lot of shots in a row.

我们在讲述连贯故事，所以始终需要高度控制——这正是我们艺术家的专长所在：精准获取预期效果，通过微调实现工艺级的品质。有趣的是，我们正在驯服这些可能自行其是的工具，特别是那些社交媒体上人人可用的通用AI。

We're telling a cohesive story, so we always need a lot of control, and that's one of the reasons our artists that's what our artists are excellent at, right? It's getting what we're looking for, fine tuning the results to get that high quality Mhmm. Of craft. So it is interesting. We're trying to force these tools that that can tend to have a mind of their own, if you're especially if you're just using the stuff that is that everyone has available on their social media and things.

将其转化为更可控的工具本身就是项大工程。当你在策划新展览或思考旧金山博物馆的未来时，如何考量工艺可能涉及的多元学科？这对你来说是重要因素吗？

Trying to turn that into something that is more controllable is a whole operation unto itself. So when you're curating a new exhibit or thinking about the future of your of your museum in San Francisco, how do you consider all the different disciplines that can go into the craft? Is that an important factor for you?

我认为是的。特别是对我们工艺博物馆而言，工艺的定义主要形成于二十世纪，我们一直在尝试打破这种固有认知。不同媒介会催生不同思维方式，因此纳入的媒介和学科越多，展览就越具包容性，能吸引更广泛观众。我倾向于认为展览更应该围绕核心理念，而非特定工艺门类。

I think it is. I think, particularly with the Museum of Craft, which is what we are, Craft was mostly defined by things that happened in the twentieth century, and so we've been trying to break down the barriers of what that even means. But generally speaking, you you think differently through different media, And so the more media you can include, the more disciplines you can include, the more sort of inclusive an exhibition becomes. You bring in different audiences. And and I like to think about the idea that an exhibition largely can be about an idea more than it has to be about a specific, discipline.

这真有趣。其实电影制作也有类似之处。通常是一位导演，或者如果是整个系列剧的话可能是一个团队，他们有着非常明确的愿景。当你在创作过程中遇到疑问时，总能知道该向谁寻求方向。嗯。因为他们是最终的决策者。

That's so interesting. That's actually kinda similar in filmmaking too. It's it tends to be a filmmaker or sometimes a team if it's a whole series. That had a have a very particular vision, and you always know where to go when you have a question about what you're making Mhmm. Because that's they're the ultimate decision makers.

但所有不同工种协同工作确实是个合作的过程。嗯。在片场平常的一天，我们总会有超过100人。如果是复杂拍摄，可能有250个专业人员各司其职，从灯光、布景装饰到设备架设、补漆等等，所有工作都在同步进行。电影制作最神奇的一点就是，为了捕捉镜头前的表演瞬间，所有这些都能在紧凑的拍摄周期内完成。

But all the different crafts coming together is it's it's a collaborative process. Mhmm. And and there's, on a common day on the set, we'll always have more than a 100 people. Sometimes it's if it's a complicated shooting, there's 250 people working in their specialties, and it's, you know, down to lighting and the set dressing and the rest of the rigging and paint touch ups and all these things happening simultaneously. It's one of the things that makes filmmaking so amazing is that all that can happen in a compressed period of time on a set just to get that moment of acting in front of the camera.

我觉得这正是电影独特魅力所在。

It's what makes movies kinda special, I think.

这让我联想到艺术灵魂的概念。记得几年前有个TED演讲，一位作曲家展示了他创造的能生成无限交响乐的算法。虽然创造无限音乐的技术很迷人，在电子游戏等需要持续背景音乐的领域也确实有应用价值。嗯。

So what what that reminds me of is this sort of idea of soul in art. And I know that there was another TED Talk from a few years ago. There was a composer who came, and he was showing off that he had created an algorithm that made infinite symphonic music. And it was a fascinating thing that you could create infinite symphonic music, and there's certainly application for that in video games and whatnot where you wanna go on forever. Mhmm.

但令我深思的是，这样的音乐本质上算什么？它真的算音乐吗？因为它没有传递任何情感。我认为这触及了问题的核心——如何保持艺术的灵魂？确实如此。

But, of course, it struck me that that music then, what is it essentially? Is it music? Because it isn't communicating anything. I think that's really at the soul of a lot of this. How do you keep the soul That's right.

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the

我认为随着AI工具越来越多，关键在于让各艺术领域的专家来主导使用。目前市面上的工具存在一个问题：它们主要为不愿投入太多时间却想获得大量产出的人设计。少量输入就能获得海量输出，技术层面确实令人惊叹，但无法让真正的行家进行精细打磨以获得更优质的作品。我们需要为专业艺术家量身打造工具，虽然现阶段AI工具的发展还需要跨越某些障碍。

I think it's so important as we start using more and more AI tools to have them driven by the people who are the artistic experts in their relative crafts. I think one of the tricky things about the existing commercially available tools right now is they tend to be designed for someone who's not going to invest very much time and wants to get a lot of output. So a little bit of input, tons of output, and it's impressive. It's technically impressive that it can happen, but it doesn't allow for someone who's a real expert in the to refine that to get them something that is, well, that is maybe a cut above. So you have to figure out I think we'll be better off when the tools are being designed for these artists that have And the that'll be interesting to see because we have a bit of a hump to get over, I think, there with the AI tools.

没错。我试用各类AI工具时发现，初次体验非常惊艳，但多用几次就会注意到某些套路在不断重复。这时候你才开始真正掌握用它讲故事的技巧。所以艺术家绝不会被取代。

Right. I find when I'm experimenting with any kind of AI tool that the first time it's really, really cool, and after you've done it for a few sessions, you realize some of the same tropes come up again and again. Right. And that's where you get kind of the more you know, you start to become more adept at at telling a story with it. So I don't think there's any danger that artists are gonna go away.

他们只会转型进化。

They're just gonna transform.

是的，这至今仍是我们的切身体会。我认为在概念上，大多数人和艺术家的第一反应和我当初一样——这听起来像是个糟糕的主意，我可不想让机器抢走饭碗。但当你真正开始使用时，就会意识到：原来我的位置很安全，机器无法取代我的工作，但它确实能帮我完成某个具体环节。

Yeah, that's been our experience so far. I think in concept, most people, most artists, think, our first reaction, my first reaction was like, well, that seems like a really bad idea. I don't want a machine taking over my job. Then when you start using it, you realize, oh, okay, I'm very safe. Machine can't do what I can do, but actually it does help me with this one part here.

你会逐渐发现工作流程中那些能助力的细节，这时它就成了像高级画笔般的工具。我认为到那个阶段，我们就实现了真正能带来益处的突破。

You start finding little parts of the workflow that helps you, then it becomes a tool like a better paintbrush. Then I think at that point we've achieved something that's actually gonna have a really nice benefit, think.

确实。比如我常提醒人们，提花织布机是计算机发展史的一部分，所有这些创新都属于同一谱系。

For sure. I like to remind people, for instance, that the Jacquard Loom was part of the history of computing, and all of these things are part of the same spectrum.

这个历史案例特别值得回顾。每次技术革新出现时，总有人出于正当理由想要抵制，也有人选择拥抱变革。我们常举的例子是摄影与绘画的关系——当然，摄影术刚问世时，很多画家都说这会让他们失业。

That's such a great example to really look back. Every time there's been a technical innovation, there's people wanting to hold it back for good reason, and then there's people who want to lean into it. And then, you know, the example we often refer to is photography versus painting. Mhmm. Which, of course, when photography came around, there were a lot of painters saying it took the painters' jobs.

但后来画家转向更具表现主义的创作方式，虽然至今仍有超写实画家，但更多人得以探索新表现形式，因为摄影承担了记录现实的功能。

But then the painters became more expressionistic and did a whole new thing with that craft that, of course, there's still photorealistic painters today, but many more of them are able to express new kinds of things because photos are doing their job of just documenting what happened. Mhmm.

好奇心在你们工作中扮演什么角色？

How does curiosity play a role in what you do?

其实体现在很多方面。工业光魔和卢卡斯影业的许多发明，都源于个人或团队对某个设想可行性的好奇。虽然这些直觉来自专业人士的研判，但探索领域往往始于有人提出'应该有更好的方法'或'需要实现这个不可能的任务'。

Well, there's so many different ways, actually. A lot of the things we invent at Industrial Light and Magic and inside of Lucasfilm are as a result of a person or a team getting curious about whether something will work. And our hunches in that area, mean, course, they're informed hunches because this is coming from experts, But the areas to explore are almost always as a result of someone saying, I think there's either a better way or this person needs to do this impossible thing. Mhmm. And we've got to come up with some way of doing it.

保持强烈好奇心去追逐这些目标至关重要，尽管过程总是不便——时间永远不够，失败风险常存。但吸引人们加入我们公司的特质，正是这种对现状的不满足感，觉得'现有方案还不够好，我们能做得更出色'。

So getting having that intense curiosity to want to chase those things down, because it's always inconvenient, There's never enough time. There's there's always risk that it's not going to work. But that's one of the things that I think people in general who get who are attracted to this company to work, they come with a lot of curiosity and a little bit of dissatisfaction of the status quo. You're like, the status quo is not quite good enough. We can do this better.

这正是工作乐趣所在。比如我作为策展人，工作本质就是追踪自己极度好奇的事物，因为总会有人产生共鸣。真正令人兴奋的，往往是那些充满风险的可能性——

That is why our jobs are fun. Yes. Because my job as well as a curator is all about just running down whatever thing I'm super curious about because someone else will be curious about that. And if it really gets you excited, if it's usually, it's a risky proposition like

没错。

Right.

在史密森尼博物馆告别火人节。

Quitting Burning Man in the Smithsonian.

我真是太喜欢这个了。

I just love that.

当它真正触动你大脑深处那个让你困惑'为什么我不能这么做？'的点时，而你恰好有机会引领这场变革。

If it really starts to hit that spot in the back of your brain that you're like, Why can't I just do this? And, you know, you get the opportunity to lead that charge.

我特别好奇——在史密森尼做出这样的创新举措时，你们遇到很多阻力吗？那些推动博物馆艺术前沿的人，是否常要对抗现状，还是会收到很多邀请？

So I'm so interested, as I mean, that's an innovative move to do at the Smithsonian. How did you do you run into a lot of resistance, or do people who are pushing the state of the art in museums do is there a lot of resistance to the status quo, is there a lot of, like, invitation?

有趣的是，作为艺术界里少数的手工艺策展人，我们反而有更多自由。手工艺常被视为边缘领域，这让我们能尝试主流艺术界未必允许的事。火人节曾是艺术中被忽视的角落，我开始将手工艺世界与那里的创作联系起来，发现未被重视的价值——这正是我工作中最享受的部分：用不同视角重新发现事物。

So interestingly, again, I'm I'm a curator of craft in basically an art world, and there aren't very many of us. Craft is kind of a sidelight, and I think it gives us permission to do things that you couldn't necessarily do in in the art world at large. Right. So burning man had been an aspect of art that had been pushed off to the sidelines, and I just started to draw the lines between what was going on in the craft world and what was going on out there and seeing the value in something that wasn't valued. And that's, I think, the the most fun that I have in my job is just trying to see something from a different perspective.

是的，然后完成这个认知闭环并带动他人，这大概和你正在做的事异曲同工。

Yeah. And then bring it full circle and bring other people along, which is probably very similar to what you have the opportunity to do.

完全正确。特别是面对AI等新工具时，首先要正确定位——不是取代艺术家，而是赋能创作。让我们的技艺更高效，为每个人提供合适工具。当大家达成这个共识时，我们才真正朝着有价值的方向前进，这非常有意思。

Yeah, absolutely. Especially as we look at new tools, we look at AI, making sure, first, that we position it the right way, that it's not about replacing artists, it's about empowering artists. And making our our craft as efficient as possible, giving the giving everybody the right tools. I think that's when, if people, if everybody gets on board of that, then we're headed in a useful direction, which I think is really interesting.

但我觉得还有一点很有趣：在这个一切追求即时、快速奔向未来的时代，有时回溯过去反而成了叛逆之举。真正拥抱历史教训或杰出先人的智慧。

I think there's one thing though that I find interesting as well, which is that we're in this moment when everything is about now and we're pressing so fast towards the future. Yeah. And then the sort of subversive act sometimes is that looking backwards. Yeah. Actually embracing lessons that we had from the past or amazing people.

我最得意的策展项目叫《弗朗西斯·格莱斯纳·李：谋杀是她的爱好》，关于这位19世纪女性用微型立体模型训练法医勘察犯罪现场的故事。

That one of one of my favorite exhibitions that I ever curated was a show called, Frances Glessner Lee, Murder is Her Hobby, Frances Glessner Lee and the Nutshell Studies of Unexplained Death. Oh. And she was a woman who was creating miniature dioramas that trained forensic investigators how to approach a scene of the crime in the nineteenth century.

所以那是

So That's

这些机会也能将过去鲜为人知的事物重新呈现，引发讨论。你们是否有机会以这类方式融合新旧元素？

it's those opportunities as well to bring these sort of little known things from the past up and have those conversations. Do you have the opportunity to kind of blend old and new in those kinds of ways?

我特别喜欢这个问题。这正是我们的工作方式。有时我们会回顾原版《星球大战》中的那些原始镜头，其中运用的技艺——比如镜头构图这类手法——是永恒的。嗯。所以我们可以向发明视觉特效的先驱们学习，其中有些人至今仍与我们共事，能直接请教他们当年的创作思路。

I love that question. That's exactly what we do. And sometimes we look back at some of those original shots in the original Star Wars, and the craft that went into them is, well, first, things like shot composition and those kind of things, those are timeless. Mhmm. So there's lessons to be learned from the people who invented visual effects, some of whom we still get to work with so we can ask them questions about how they approached it.

比如十二年前我们启动《星球大战7》（J·J·艾布拉姆斯执导）时，虽然计划主要使用CG技术，但我们重新研究了所有微缩模型镜头。我们会问：为什么原版中的AT-AT步行机如此迷人？那个时代有哪些特质值得我们用新工具保留或效仿？

But also, like when we started Star Wars Episode VII, so J. J. Abrams' film, this was about twelve years ago, we went back to all those miniature shots, because we were going do most of it with CG, almost all of it with computer graphics. We went back to those original shots and said, like, what about that Adat Walker is so charming in this original? And what are the things that we want to preserve from that era or emulate with the new tools?

而有些只是旧工艺的局限产物，应该用数字技术改进。典型例子就是飞船——当使用微缩模型时，受限于影棚空间（就像我们现在这个），光源距离最多10-15英尺。你想模拟太阳光，但实际效果有限。当飞船平面较多时，近距离的小型光源会产生特殊阴影。

And what are the things that actually are just artifacts of the old way of doing it, and actually they should just be improved with the new digital tools. So a great example of that is the ships, that when they were miniatures, the lights could only be so many feet away, like the studio we're in now. They can only be 10 or 15 feet away, because at some point you run into the wall. You're trying to simulate a sun, but you can only do so so well with that. And it turns out, like flying a ship that has mostly flat surfaces with a light that's relatively close and can only be so small.

计算机可以完美模拟无限远的太阳光，但均匀照明会显得单调。而较近光源能让飞船飞行时产生更生动的明暗变化。我们既要保留硬阴影来维持真实感，又想要更丰富的层次。这样就能保留舞台摄影的精华，剔除人工痕迹。

If you're simulating a sun, it's like infinitely far away. The computer can simulate it perfectly, but it's a little boring because it's just like an even illumination of light. But if you have a light that's relatively close as the ship flies around, you get more interesting shading. We wanted the hard shadows so you believed it was the sun, but we liked the more interesting shading. So we were able to keep the elements from the stage photography that we liked and drop the elements that made it feel a little bit artificial.

这类细节正是我们痴迷钻研的。

Those are the kind of details we kind of obsess over.

这确实引人深思——我始终认为最精彩的设计创新往往源于限制。而当下我们似乎毫无束缚，AI虽未完全成熟但几乎无所不能。那么该如何主动创造限制，让作品真正富有深意？

So it's a really interesting question because at this moment, you know, I always think that the most interesting design and innovation comes from the constraints. Right. And at this moment, we feel very unconstrained. AI is not maybe all the way there yet, but you can just do pretty much anything. So how do you create the necessary constraint to make something really interesting and meaningful?

这个问题很棒，尤其对叙事创作而言...

Well, I love that question. I think it especially for storytelling

嗯。

Mhmm.

限制塑造故事。观众能产生共鸣是因为理解世界的规则——电影前五分钟建立的设定需要始终贯彻。这适用于叙事的视觉语言、运镜方式。我认为创作者有责任为作品设定规则体系，让观众安心沉浸：'有人深思熟虑过这一切，我们懂这个基调'。

The constraints make the story I think we relate to it well because we understand the world. We understand the constraints of the world, and you set up the rules in the first five minutes of a movie, and you want to adhere to those. So that goes for, I think, the visual language of the storytelling, how the camera moves. It I feel like it's upon us as creators to actually set the rule set for our show so the audience can then relax and go, somebody's thought this through. We know the tone.

我们理解那种感受。你会常听到人们——我就经常听到——谈论他们最喜爱节目的整体基调。当我看到一部制作精良、风格与设计贯穿始终的作品时，我自己也会觉得，这作品值得信赖，可以放松欣赏。嗯。我想在讨论展览、规划博物馆时，这种对设计连贯性的感知也是类似的。

We know feeling. And you'll hear people I hear people a lot talk about tone of their favorite shows. And and myself, when I see something that is well crafted, that has a consistency of style and design through it, I know I'm in good hands, so I can relax and watch the movie. Mhmm. I imagine that's somewhat similar when you're talking about an exhibit, you're talking about a museum, laying that out and feeling that that design.

那种一致性。确实。我在史密森尼很幸运能与出色的展览设计师合作，但关键在于要从头到尾在脑海中构建概念，逐厅精心打造，确保观众既能感受空间氛围，又能欣赏展品本身。

That consistency. Yeah. I mean, I've been very fortunate at Smithsonian to work with some really wonderful exhibit designers, but always it has to be something conceptualized in your head from start to finish and really crafted room by room to make sure that people enter into the feeling of the space as well as just appreciating the object.

是的。通过工作接触，我熟悉了拉菲克·阿纳多尔的作品，看到它在博物馆引发的关注令人振奋——观众能驻足半小时观看展览，因为它极具催眠效果，几乎像致幻体验。这是你希望在整个博物馆界推广的展览类型吗？这类探索是否应该持续深化，还是说现阶段适量即可？

Yes. Through the course of my work, I've become familiar with Rafiq Anadol's work, and I'm just so excited to see the kind of attention it's getting in museums, in where people sit there for half an hour and watch it on exhibit because it's very mesmerizing. It's kind of almost trans inducing. Is this the kind of thing that you would like to see in general in the museum community? This is the kind of exhibit that you'd like to see continued to be explored and pushed forward, or is it just like the right dose of it is what we need right now?

我认为博物馆必须包含这类作品，坦白说希望看到更多。越早将这些元素引入博物馆，全面记录其发展脉络，我们越能真正领略其可能性——既能存档（A点），也能拓宽认知边界。

I think it's important to have it in the museums, and I'd like to see more of it, frankly, in museums, because the faster that we can bring some of those aspects into museums and allow all of the breadth of what's going on in that, the more we can document it, A, but also the more you really get a sense for what's possible.

没错。接下来若能见到这类表达形式的多样化呈现会很有趣。

Yeah. The variety of different kinds of expressions of that might be interesting to see next.

是的。总体而言，目前进入博物馆的AI艺术还远远不够。我看到许多媒体艺术的早期作品都是后来才被大量收藏的，观察这种演进过程本身就充满魅力。

Yeah. I think just by and large, there hasn't been enough AI art that has made it into the museum yet, And I see a lot of the early ages of media art that was collected so much later in the game. And it's still fascinating, because it's the opportunity to see an evolution in progress.

而且这类作品转瞬即逝。它们需要特定配置的电脑和GPU，比帆布油画更难保存维护。

Yeah, and this stuff is so ephemeral. Like, it requires a certain computer with a certain GPU. Like, these are gonna be harder pieces of art to keep and preserve than a painting on a canvas.

其实还有另一层面：我们无需畏惧技术。真正优秀的数字作品理应进入博物馆，与大理石雕塑或传统绘画比肩——当你看到不同形式的真实技艺与价值在同一个语境中交相辉映时，反而会提升彼此的价值。

Well, there's another aspect to that as well, which is that I don't think that we need to be afraid of technology. And people who are doing it really well should be in a museum, and it should be sitting there right next to a marble sculpture or a crafted, you know, a painting, whatnot, because you're seeing different types of true skill and value, and it actually lifts the value of those other things when you see them all in context.

这观点太棒了。乔治·卢卡斯谈及他在洛杉矶筹建博物馆时也这么说过（虽然项目仍在进行，我没有内幕消息）。早期听说他会将古典油画与本身就是艺术品的电影海报并列展出——不确定最终策展方案，但若成真会非常美妙。

I love that. This is the pitch I heard when George Lucas talked about opening his museum in LA, which is still under development, and I don't have any inside information about it. But what I heard early on was that it was going to be classic painting next to a movie poster that was also a fantastic painting. And I don't know if that's how they're gonna end up curating it, but if they do, that sounds delightful to me.

确实。故事的本质永恒不变。真正杰出的作品经得起任何形式的考验。我期待在TED看到更多手工艺与AI创作并置的展示。

Yeah. A story is a story is a story. And if it's a great object, it's gonna survive that. I wish for TED that we would be able to see many more of those handcrafted things next to some of these AI things. Right.

因为我认为这能让两个故事都更丰富。

Because I think it enriches both stories.

是的。它们确实相辅相成。比如我们在《曼达洛人》中有个镜头——我在TED演讲里提到过——将定格动画、实时计算机图形和实景布景无缝融合，上百人能在现场同时构思镜头，在这个既高科技又低技术的系统里制作剧集。我觉得这种组合非常美妙。

Yes. Yeah, they really do complement each other. When we get, like, we have a shot in The Mandalorian that I talked about in my TED Talk, where you we have stop motion animation combined with real time computer graphics, combined with a real set, and it's seamlessly blended between all three of those live on set where a 100 people can compose their shots and and make a show inside this both high-tech and low tech system, which I think those that kind of combination is really nice.

我认为这再次体现了信息的层次感。当你观看时，这种无缝衔接的效果，这种透过不同镜头窥视的感觉，你能感知到却无法分辨转换点，正是这种神秘感让它更具魔力。

And I think it's it's that layering of information again that now you're looking at this and the fact that it's seamless, the fact that you're sort of peering through these different lenses, you can sense it and you don't know where it happens, that makes it more magical.

完全同意。这个词用得百分百准确。就像魔术戏法，你永远猜不透原理。就连看过幕后花絮的人也会说：好吧，我知道用了LED墙，知道做了数字延伸——

Totally. That is 100% the right word for it. It's the magic trick when you could never guess how it would be done. Like, even people who've seen the behind the scenes are like, okay, know they used LED walls. I know they did digital extensions.

但他们绝对想不到还混入了定格动画。一旦开始混合媒介，它就会自然呈现出独特的表现形态。

They would have never guessed it was also some stop motion in there. And as soon as you start mixing the media, it does it informs what it looks like.

那么你有多在意观众是被技术吸引而来，还是被故事本身所打动？

So how much do you care whether people are are coming to the films because they're romanced by the technology or that they're drawn to the story or

噢，故事永远是王道。百分之百。故事和角色才是核心驱动力。我刚接触视觉特效时——尤其当我开始参与设计场景时——比如《游侠索罗》里的凯塞尔逃亡戏，视效总监要深度参与场景设计。很容易就会在设计炫酷飞船镜头时忽略人物刻画。

Oh, I mean, the story is king. Yeah. A 100%. The story has to be the driver and the characters, you know, when I first got into visual effects, especially when I first got to the point where I could help design sequences, because we do a lot of let's say there's something like the Kessel Run or something like that in Solo. The visual effects supervisor has a lot to do with the design of that sequence, trying to make sure we understand how we're gonna approach all those I would easily it would be too easy to lose track of the people when you're just designing spectacular shipshots.

即便明白这个道理，仍会设计过多飞船镜头而忽略演员的面部特写。直到拍摄完成才恍然大悟：故事永远体现在演员脸上。不仅是台词，更是他们对他人台词、对周遭世界的反应。嗯。

And even knowing that, it's still easy to design in too many shipshots and not enough shots where action is going to take place on the actors' faces. As soon as you shoot the whole thing, you realize, oh, of course, every time, I always get reminded, the story's on the actors' faces. They're going to it's not even just their lines. It's their lines, but it's more their reactions to other people's lines, to what's happening in the world. Mhmm.

确实需要一些镜头来交代空间关系，但大部分故事都承载在演员的面部表情上——这很美妙，因为人类天生就爱观察彼此的脸庞。

And you do need a few shots to keep yourself organized in the geography and to understand the story. But most of it's on on actors' faces, which is which is lovely because that's what we love to look at.

你认为目前存在哪些局限性？

What do you see as the limitations now?

哦，我认为继续在片场提供尽可能多的信息时刻是个好机会。LED墙之所以有趣，部分原因在于演员能获得比在蓝幕前表演更多的信息。虽然出于成本、效率或加快进度等合理考量，人们倾向于减少实景搭建而更多依赖数字技术，但确保片场保持其魔力空间至关重要。比如当我们让《游侠索罗》的演员们登上千年隼时，环绕投影屏已就位，但我们事先没告诉他们这装置能实现所有效果。

Oh, I think the I think the opportunity to continue to give that moment on set the most information as possible. So some of the reason the LED walls are fun is because the actors get so much more information than acting in front of a blue screen. And I think there's a temptation to build less and less and to lean into the digital techniques more for cost reasons, for efficiency, to move fast, all sorts of good reasons. But being able to make sure that set stays a magical space. You know, when we loaded the cast of Solo into the Millennium Falcon, and there was a wraparound projection screen, and we didn't tell them in advance that it was it could do everything.

它甚至能完整呈现科舍尔航程。起初我们只展示了星空背景，在他们看来那不过是静态画面。这是朗·霍华德的主意——不提前告知演员。

It could do the whole Kessel Run. We just had stars up there. So as far as they could tell, it was a painting. So they got in there. This was Ron Howard's idea, not to tell him.

就让他们直接登船体验。当时唐纳德·格洛弗还问要不要先彩排，演员们甚至都还拿着剧本半准备状态。他们就按照标记位置坐进了驾驶舱。

Just let him up, get up there and experience. He's like, well, why don't we do a dry run? They're just still holding their script. They're half ready for the shoot. So they sit down in the there's spots.

这位是唐纳德·格洛弗

And this is Donald Glover

嗯。

Mhmm.

菲比·沃勒-布里奇、阿尔登...很棒。记不清那场戏还有谁在场，但这是他们第一次进入驾驶舱，阿尔登饰演索罗。朗开始倒计时'准备...罗伯，启动超空间跳跃'，特效组随即摇晃千年隼，所有演员都惊呆了——他们拉下操纵杆，真的进入了超空间。

Phoebe Waller Bridge, Alden. Nice. And I can't remember who else was in that particular shot, but their first time in the cockpit, Alden was playing solo. And so Ron does the countdown, he goes, Okay, ready, Rob, cue Hyperspace. And so we cue Hyperspace, and the special effects guys shake the Millennium Falcon, and they're just all freaking out in there because they pulled the lever, they went into Hyperspace.

这完全超出他们预期。所有人都在欢呼雀跃。拍摄结束后，我通过耳机听到唐纳德·格洛弗仰头感叹'这是我做过最酷的事'。让首次彩排就如此震撼，会彻底改变他们在银幕上的表现。

They didn't expect this to happen. And, everybody was, like, yelling and having fun. And then I heard Donald Glover say, like, after the take was all over, he, like, leaned back because I was listening on the headphones, he goes, this is the coolest thing I have ever done, which was just I mean, to do that and have that be their first rehearsal, it changes what they're gonna do on screen.

这必定颠覆表演方式。你能让人真正身临其境。

It must transform acting. You can really put people there.

完全正确。当巨型太空怪兽出现在屏幕上，每个人都知道该何时反应。这比对着网球说'看那里，准备，一二三'的效果天差地别。演员们固然出色——

Absolutely. Giant Space Monsters appears on the screen. Everybody knows right where to exactly when to react. You get a different performance than if you're just saying, look at that tennis ball, and ready, one, two, three. Actors are great.

他们能做到。但若能提供真实场景呢？当你思考展品如何引发观众情感共鸣，或如何通过整个展区传递故事与情感体验时，你会尝试用艺术手段营造特定的情感氛围吗？

They can do it. Amazing. But how much better is it when you give them the real thing? When you're thinking about how a piece is gonna resonate emotionally with people walking through the museum or what story you're telling and what you want people to experience emotionally as they've gone through a whole part of an exhibit, what the ways you try to use the art to kind of create certain emotional feelings?

我是说，这就是艺术的本质。当你漫步其中时，如果一件作品没有某种触动人类情感共鸣的特质，它就不会被陈列在博物馆里。所以我认为这正是博物馆展览的精彩之处。对吧。

I mean, that's what art is. You're walking through. You wouldn't put the piece in the museum if there wasn't some kind of an emotional human resonance to it. So I think that's the glory of what a museum exhibition can be. Right.

我特别热衷于在展览中创造事物之间隐秘的关联，因为当你凝视这些展品时，大脑会迸发火花——把某件展品摆在这里，突然之间就改变了整件作品的解读。我觉得这和电影制作非常相似，核心都在于情感叙事。当然，博物馆与电影相似的美妙之处在于，你们通常是集体共同体验这个过程。

I really love trying to create sort of hidden connections between things in the exhibitions as well, because your brain lights up as you're looking at all of these things, and you put this over here, and all of a sudden, it transforms what the piece is about. So I think it's just probably very similar to film. It's all about this sort of emotional storyline. And one of the beauties, of course, of a museum similar to film is that you're bringing people through it typically all together. Right.

一群人共同穿行于展厅，在那个空间里形成多元的体验——他们分享着惊叹之情，当某个人指向某件展品时，就会把其他人也带入那种感受。策划展览最大的乐趣之一，就是看着观众穿行其间，触动这个人的可能并非触动另一个人的那件展品，但他们共同推进着这个叙事。

There's a group of people who were walking through this and having this, you know, multiplicity in that room that are sharing that experience and the awe and the way one person will point to something and it brings others into that experience. It's one of the biggest joys I have putting together exhibitions is watching people walk through them and something that that touches this person might not be the same thing that touches someone else, but they bring each other along on that story.

确实。电影制作也是如此，我们最优秀的部门主管，那些负责节目各个部门的团队，他们会花大量时间研读剧本，理解故事和主题，然后运用各种手段来强化这些主题和情感。有时这表现为技术手法，也就是工艺上的选择；有时则是所有人共同追求的一种感觉。

Yeah. Yeah. That is very similar in filmmaking, where we're our best heads of departments, the teams that run all the different departments that work on the show, they spend so much time with the script, understanding the story, understanding the theme, and then using as many tools as possible to reinforce those themes, those emotions. And sometimes that can be technique, you know, the choices that are made in the craft. Sometimes that's just a feeling that everybody's going for.

就像我最爱的一些电影会有精彩的色彩脚本，早在确定所有设计之前，我们就通过早期建立的色彩体系预知了不同场景的情绪基调。嗯。所以当你回归到这个层面时就会想：好，我们要如何在每个设计中融入这种品红色调，从而让整部电影形成连贯的视觉流动。

Like some of my favorite movies have these wonderful color scripts that even before we know what all the designs are, know what the mood of the various scenes are going be because of the colors that we're gonna establish way early. Mhmm. So then you get back into that, and you're like, okay. How are we gonna make that magenta feel in here as you're adding in each of the designs so it gives the cohesive flow over the course of a movie.

而人文主义本身就是混沌的，人们会带着各自的生活阅历参与其中。

And then that humanism is messy, and people bring their own lives to it.

没错。

That's right.

总会出现你完全预料不到的叠加层次。

There's a whole another overlay that you never expected.

完全如此。

Completely.

其实我最爱的时刻永远是展览开幕——经过数周甚至数年的筹备，在展厅里布展数周后，你已经对眼前的一切感到审美疲劳，完全麻木了。而当第一批观众走进来，他们脸上那种惊叹的神情...

My favorite thing, actually, is always opening an exhibition because after weeks and weeks of, you know, well, you know, years putting together a show, weeks of installing it in the galleries, and you're kind of sick of looking at all of it, and it doesn't register any longer. And then the first people walk in, and you get the wonder on their faces.

丹尼斯·梅林，曾参与原版《星球大战》的视觉特效总监，在谈到《星球大战第四部》时说，那是我们的第一部大片，对吧？他们完成了所有镜头，却只能看到镜头里残留的瑕疵。所有他们想要改进的地方。后来他去洛杉矶好莱坞参加了首映式，和观众一起观看电影时，他满眼都是那些失误，却看到其他人全神贯注于故事本身。这就是他的原话。

Dennis Mearin, who is a visual effects supervisor who worked on the original Star Wars, he said, on Star Wars Episode Four, that was our first big movie, right? They'd done all the shots. They could only see the mistakes that were left in the shots. All the things they And wanted to make then he went to the premiere down in Los Angeles, in Hollywood, and he watched the movie with the audience, and all he was seeing was those mistakes, but he could see everybody else was seeing the storytelling. And that's what he said.

那一刻，他从一个镜头匠人蜕变成了真正的电影人。

That's when he became a filmmaker instead of a shotmaker.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？成为能看见完整故事而非纠结细节的人，我认为这——

Right? Someone who could see the whole story instead of just all the different details, which I think is

某些失误最终反而会成为成品中的闪光点。

Some kind of mistakes of end up being the kind of gems in the end product.

完全正确。完美并非必需。丹尼斯总是这样教导我们。丹尼斯·梅林和肯·罗尔斯顿，这些为经典影片工作的团队启发了我们无数从业者，他们最擅长说：'那边的小瑕疵无关紧要，观众根本不会注意那里。'

Absolutely. Perfection isn't necessary. And Dennis would always be teaching us this. Dennis, Murren, and Ken Ralston, the teams that worked on those original films that inspired so many of us in our craft, they're really good at saying, Oh, that detail over there, it's imperfect, but it doesn't matter. People aren't looking there.

我宁愿把时间花在观众真正关注的画面上。电影史上这样的优秀案例数不胜数。

I'd rather spend the time working on the thing that people are looking at. So there's lots and lots of great examples of films.

我们本就不完美。

We're imperfect.

没错。完美并不总是更好。

Yeah. Exactly. Perfection is not always better.

好的。非常感谢，这次对话真是太愉快了。

Alright. Well, thank you so much. This has been so fun.

真的非常愉快。我很喜欢了解一些关于你们世界的事情，所以感谢你抽出时间。

It has really been fun. I love learning a little bit about your world, so thanks for taking the time.

这是诺拉·阿特金森与罗伯·布雷多为我们的原创系列《TED交汇点》进行的一段对话。访问ted.com观看这场对话及系列中的其他内容。若你对TED的策展标准感到好奇，可前往ted.com/curationguidelines了解更多。今天的节目就到这里，《TED每日演讲》是TED音频合集的一部分。

That was a conversation between Nora Atkinson and Rob Breddo for our original series, Ted Intersections. Visit ted.com to watch this conversation and others from the series. If you're curious about Ted's curation, find out more at ted.com/curationguidelines. And that's it for today. Ted Talks Daily is part of the Ted audio collective.

本演讲内容经TED研究团队事实核查，由我们的团队——玛莎·埃斯特瓦诺斯、奥利弗·弗里德曼、布莱恩·格林、露西·利特尔和坦西卡·桑玛尼翁制作编辑。本期节目混音由克里斯托弗·法伊兹·博根完成。额外支持来自艾玛·陶伯纳和丹妮拉·巴拉雷索。我是艾莉丝·胡，明天我将带着新鲜观点回归你的订阅列表。

This talk was fact checked by the Ted research team and produced and edited by our team, Martha Estevanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Lucy Little, and Tansika Sungmarnivong. This episode was mixed by Christopher Faizy Bogan. Additional support from Emma Taubner and Daniella Balarezo. I'm Elise Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.