为什么各国应像衡量 GDP 一样衡量梦想与抱负 | 兰斯·卡蒂格巴克

你正在收听《TED每日演讲》，每天为你带来激发好奇心的新思想。

You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day.

我是你的主持人，伊莉丝·胡。

I'm your host, Elise Hu.

‘你长大后想做什么’是个普遍的问题，但不知从什么时候起，我们就不再被问起了。

What do you wanna be when you grow up is a universal question, and yet at some point, we stop being asked.

取而代之的是，别人关心的是：你做什么工作？你赚多少钱？

Instead, it becomes, what do you do, or how much do you make?

你假期打算去哪儿？

Where are you going on vacation?

我们越来越擅长达成那些根本不是我们自己设定的目标，拼命往上爬的梯子，本来就是那些已经站在顶端的人设计的。

We've become really good at hitting metrics that were never ours to begin with and climbing a ladder that was designed by those who were already sitting on top of it.

消费者研究员兰斯·卡蒂格巴克决定换种方式提问。

Consumer researcher Lance Katigbak decided to ask a different kind of question.

不是经济增速有多快，而是人们真正梦想的是什么？他们真正追求的是什么？

Not how fast is your economy growing, but what do people actually dream of or aspire to?

在这场演讲中，他分享了自己的发现，并提出了一种目前还不存在的理念。

In this talk, he shares what he found and makes the case for something that doesn't exist yet.

我们每个人长大后，依然想成为某种样子。

We all still want to be something when we grow up.

如果每个国家都有国防部，为什么不能有个‘梦想部’呢？

If every country has a department of defense, why can we have a department of dreams?

稍后休息回来，马上就来。

It's coming up right after a short break.

本节目由Wise赞助支持，全球理财的明智之选。

Support comes from Wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the world.

你的生活是全球化的。

Your life is global.

你的资金也该如此。

Your money should be too.

有些机构声称跨境转账零手续费。

Some providers promise no fees on overseas transfers.

别被蒙骗了。

Don't be fooled.

额外费用往往藏在不透明的汇率里。

Extra costs often hide in bloated exchange rates.

选Wise吧。

Choose Wise.

你可以用它转账、消费和收款，支持40多种货币。

You can send, spend, and receive money in over 40 currencies.

用的汇率跟谷歌上显示的一样透明。

Count on the exchange rates that you'd usually see on Google.

正是靠这个，数以百万计的人省下了数十亿美元的隐形费用。

That's how millions save billions on hidden fees.

聪明一点。

Be smart.

选Wise。

Get wise.

访问 wise.com。

Visit wise.com.

条款细则适用。

Ts and cs apply.

最新的全球新闻，现在触手可及。

The latest global headlines are now at your fingertips.

立即订阅彭博新闻，按你的时间安排获取资讯。

Subscribe to Bloomberg News now and get news when you want it on your schedule.

这些是时长五分钟以内的简短音频报道，为你带来最新新闻及其背景解读。

These are short audio reports five minutes or less that bring you the latest headlines with context.

每天抽几分钟查看一下，轻松掌握全球最新动态。

Check-in throughout the day for just a few minutes to stay on top of the latest news from around the world.

彭博新闻现在全天候24小时，直接在你的智能手机上提供。

Bloomberg News now is available twenty four hours a day right on your smartphone.

今天就在苹果播客、Spotify 或你常用的平台订阅吧。

Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you listen.

彭博新闻现在

Bloomberg News Now.

背景不同，意义全变

Context changes everything.

接下来是今天推荐的TED演讲

And now our TED talk of the day.

你长大以后想做什么？

What do you wanna be when you grow up?

四岁的时候，我想当一名计算机科学家

At age four, I wanted to become a computer scientist.

五岁的时候，我想当吸尘器销售员

At five, a vacuum cleaner salesman.

六岁的时候，我想当神父

At six, a priest.

十七岁的时候，我想当一名获奖的电影导演

At 17, an award winning filmmaker.

到了22岁，终于到了该选第一份工作的时候，我成了管理顾问。

And at 22, when it was finally time to decide on my first job, I became a management consultant.

你长大以后想做什么？

What do you want to be when you grow up?

我敢说在座的每个人都被问过类似的问题，只是可能很久没再听到了。

I'm sure everyone here has been asked some version of that question, but perhaps not recently.

不知怎么的，问题的内容已经变了。

Somehow, the questions have changed.

你平时是做什么工作的？

What do you do for work?

你一年能挣多少钱？

How much money do you make?

你下次假期打算去哪儿？

Where are you going on your next vacation?

我们现在已经沉迷于用这些问题来衡量甚至整个国家的生产力了。

We've become obsessed with asking these types of questions to measure even our nation's productivity.

我们追踪经济增长率、汇款和出口，却从不真正问问这些数字是否反映了人们真正想要的生活。

We track growth rates, remittances and exports without really asking if these numbers reflect the lives that people are trying to live.

我在菲律宾家里就看到了这种体系的问题。

I see the problems with this system at home in The Philippines.

我们的GDP在飙升，但这种增长方式和人们真正想过的生活并不一致。

Our GDP is soaring, but we're doing it in a way that doesn't quite align with the kind of lives that people want to live.

一方面，我们有数百万人被派往国外，去照顾别人家的父母和孩子；还有数百万人被迫熬夜，当家人熟睡时，他们却整晚接听着来自地球另一端的电话，询问银行账户里有多少钱。

For one, we send millions of people abroad to take care of other people's parents and children, and we train millions more to stay awake while their families are asleep so they can be up all night answering phone calls from halfway across the world about how much money is in their bank account.

可奇怪的是，我们还因此得到了奖励。

And somehow, we're rewarded for it.

我们被告知，菲律宾是东南亚增长第二快的经济体，再过几年，就要升级为中高收入国家了。

We're told that we're Southeast Asia's second fastest growing economy, and in a few years, we'll be upgraded to an upper middle income country.

作为一个国家，我们擅长达成那些根本不是我们自己设定的指标，爬着一条早就被坐在顶端的人设计好的梯子。

As a nation, we've become really good at hitting metrics were never ours to begin with and climbing a ladder that was designed by those who were already sitting on top of it.

但如果你去问菲律宾人，他们觉得哪些指标才是真正重要的，会发生什么？

But what would happen if you asked Filipinos what metrics mattered to them?

如果你试着去衡量梦想，会发生什么？

What would happen if you tried to measure dreams?

去年，我和我在波士顿咨询公司的同事们开展了一项全国性的代表性调查，就是为了回答这个问题。

Last year, my colleagues and I at BCG ran a nationwide, nationally representative survey to answer this very question.

说实话，从来没有任何客户问过我们关于梦想的事，但如果你去看看国内最大企业的网站和使命宣言，它们都在试图把自己的业务和国家发展联系起来。

Now, look, no client had ever asked us about dreams, but if you look at the websites and mission statements of the country's largest businesses, all of them are trying to connect their work to national development in some way.

所以我们知道，即使没人问这个问题，答案本身却会吸引很多人关注。

And so we knew that even if nobody was asking the question, the answer was one that many people would be interested in.

我们发现了三件事。

We discovered three things.

第一，我们弄清楚了菲律宾人的梦想是什么。

First, we discovered what the Filipino dream was.

无论哪个社会经济阶层，排名第一的梦想都是获得经济保障，以应对突发的健康问题。

The number one ranked dream across all socioeconomic segments was to achieve financial security to absorb health scares.

但我们学到的还不止这些。

Well, we learned more than that.

我们还听到了一些真实的故事。

We also heard stories.

比如26岁的幼儿教师蒂德里，她的梦想是当选选美皇后、当主持人、从政，还要开一家像祖母那样的美发店。

We heard stories like that of Tidri, 26 year old preschool teacher who dreams of becoming a beauty queen, a host, a politician, and opening a hair salon just like her grandmother.

但目前蒂德里还负担不起这些，因为她还得帮着支付祖父的医疗费用——他刚中风了。

But right now, Tidu can't afford to do that because she still has to help pay for her grandfather's health care bills because she just had a stroke.

第二，我们弄清楚了这些梦想是为谁而存在的。

Second, we learned who those dreams are for.

大多数菲律宾人其实不是为自己做梦。

Most Filipinos don't actually dream for themselves.

他们是为整个大家庭在做梦。

They dream for their extended family.

我们认识了乔伊，一位56岁的广播技术员，大多数夜晚都要从凌晨两点工作到晚上十一点。

We met people like Joey, 56 year old radio technician who works from 2AM to 11PM most nights.

他因为工作需要住在车站附近的寄宿屋，但依然梦想着当农民、社工，还有高中老师。

He lives in a boarding house close to the station given the demands of his job, but still wants to be a farmer, a social worker, and a high school teacher.

但他真的很想退休，每次跟公司提，对方都说再等等。

But he really wants to retire, but every time he asks his company, they say, not yet.

现在他别无选择，还得继续供女儿读书。

Right now, he doesn't really have a choice because he still has to finish paying for his daughter's education.

第三，我们了解到人们对各种机构帮助他们实现梦想的看法。

And third, we learned how people perceived institutions as helping them achieve those dreams.

我们发现，大多数菲律宾人并不觉得公共或私人机构在帮他们实现梦想，所以只能靠自己。

We learned that most Filipinos actually didn't feel like public and private institutions were helping them achieve their dreams, and so they could only rely on themselves.

我们认识了瑞典，一位35岁的新闻记者，多年来一直奔波在不同的外勤任务之间。

We met people like Sweden, 35 year old news reporter who spent years moving from one field assignment to another.

她生了第一个孩子后，决定辞职在家，从车库里做起儿童服装生意，觉得在网上卖童装能给家人带来更稳定的收入。

When she had her first child, she decided to stay home and start a children's clothing business from her garage, believing that making and selling children's clothes online would be a better way of creating financial stability for her family.

现在，她梦想着在商场开一家旗舰店，再为家人买一座山里的第二套房子。

Today, she dreams of opening up a flagship store in a mall for her business and of buying a second home in the mountains for her family.

蒂德里、乔伊、瑞典，还有我们采访过的五百多名菲律宾人，都还想着等长大了要成为什么样的人，他们的梦想看起来似乎触手可及。

Tidri, Joey, Sweden, and a 500 other Filipinos we've interviewed all still want to be something when they grow up, and their dreams seem so achievable.

但不知为什么，对他们来说，这些梦想依然遥不可及。

But somehow to them, they still feel out of reach.

我们把这份报告分享给了客户、商界、媒体，甚至政府官员。

We shared this report with clients, the business community, media, even government officials.

每次他们都会问我们：为什么以前没人做过这件事？

And every single time, they ask us the question, why hasn't this been done before?

为什么我们从来没想过要衡量人们的梦想？

Why haven't we tried to measure dreams?

原因有很多，但我认为，真正有权力提问的人，总觉得他们已经知道答案了。

Look, there are many reasons, but I think it's because those who have the power to ask the question think they already know the answer.

每次我在论坛上问：‘你认为菲律宾人最大的梦想是什么？’，我从没见过房间里职位最高的人答对过。

In every single forum where I've asked the question, what do you think is the number one Filipino dream, I've never seen the most senior person in the room answer it correctly.

他们通常猜一些安全的答案，比如买房，或者泛泛地说‘家庭幸福’。

They usually guess something safe, like to buy a house or something generic, like to have a happy family.

只有不到5%的人能猜对，而且通常是那些职位较低、出身普通家庭、靠自己打拼上来的人。

Less than about 5% of people guess it, and it's usually somebody more junior, somebody who grew up in a lower income family and worked their way up the ladder.

我在想，世界上还有多少国家正经历着同样的事？所谓的‘发展’，不过是盯着某个地方的数字往上走，可老百姓却觉得离自己的目标一点都没靠近，好像唯一的出路就是离开。

And I wonder, in how many other countries in the world is this actually happening, where what we call development is really just watching some number somewhere going up and to the right, but people on the ground feel nowhere closer to where they're actually trying to go than they were yesterday, where the only way up is out.

但等等。

But wait.

我们其实已经有比GDP更好的东西了。

We already have something better than GDP.

对吧？

Right?

国民幸福指数不就是衡量同样的事吗？

Doesn't gross national happiness measure the same thing?

你看。

Look.

不丹的国民幸福指数，我觉得已经重新定义了他们的发展理念。

Bhutan's GNH, I think, has really redefined development for them.

它问的是人们是否快乐，文化是否繁荣，以及是否感到精神上的满足。

It's asked whether people are happy, whether their culture is thriving, and whether they feel spiritually fulfilled.

今天开心，和感觉自己正在靠近梦想，完全是两回事。

But being happy today is very different from feeling like you're coming closer to your dreams.

不丹可能是世界上最痴迷于衡量幸福的国家之一，但2022年仍有约10%的有技能、受过教育的人口选择移民出去。

Bhutan might be one of the most obsessed countries in the world with measuring happiness, but about 10% of their skilled and educated population immigrated in 2022.

也许，用幸福来衡量问题，本身就存在缺陷。

Maybe that's the problem with measuring happiness.

我今天可能很开心，因为该有的都有了，一切顺利，但我未必真的在靠近自己真正想达到的目标。

I could be happy today because I've got everything I need and things are going well, but I might not actually be closer to where I'm trying to go.

我觉得，衡量梦想能帮我们做到的，是不仅看今天的感觉，更要看这种进步的长期方向。

And I think that's what measuring dreams can do for us, look not only at how we feel today, but at the vector of that progress over time.

我觉得我提出的这个想法，并不算离谱。

And I don't think what I'm suggesting is too far off.

毕竟，我们大多数人所在的公司，都有人力资源部门在追踪员工的成长轨迹。

After all, most of us here already work for companies that have HR departments that measure the progression of our employees.

那为什么国家不能设立类似的人力资源部门，来追踪公民的个人抱负与成就感呢？

So why couldn't our countries have HR departments that measure the personal ambition and fulfillment of its of its citizens?

如果每个国家都有国防部，为什么不能有个追梦部呢？

If every country has a department of defense, why couldn't we have a department of dreams?

想象一下，由追梦部长发布的年度国家志向报告。

Imagine this, the annual aspiration of the nation report presented by the secretary of dreams.

报告会分析不同年龄、收入群体和地区的人都在梦想什么。

It looks at what people dream of by age, by income group, by geography.

它还会追踪人们如何形成梦想，如何迈向更大的目标，以及什么时候选择放弃旧梦。

It looks at how people came up with their dreams, how they graduate to bigger ones, and when they decide to give up on old dreams.

想象一下，全国设立追梦中心，你可以参加个人成长的培训，还有经过专业训练的生活导师，帮你保持前进的方向。

Imagine national dream centers where you could attend trainings on making personal progress or social workers trained as life coaches who can help keep you on track.

追梦部可以和卫生部门合作，研究突发健康问题如何影响人们的志向。

Imagine the Department of Dreams could work with the Department of Health to measure how health care emergencies affect ambition.

如果我们从志向和动力的角度来看待这些健康危机，是不是能改善医疗效果？

Could we not improve health care outcomes if you took a lens at how these emergencies affect ambition and motivation?

追梦部可以联合贸易与工业部，确保那些有创业梦想的人真能得到实现梦想的资源；也可以和劳动部配合，确保人们想从事的工作，正是社会正在创造的岗位；还能和教育部合作，为未来的学生培养通往梦想职业的能力。

The department of dreams could work with the department of trade and industry to ensure that when people say they have these dream businesses, they actually get the tools to create them, or with the department of labor to ensure that the jobs that people say they want are the same jobs that are being created, Or with the Department of Education to train future students for those dream jobs.

你看。

Look.

我知道有自由市场，但能不能想象这样一个世界：人们说我想当作家、历史学家、宇航员或精神科医生，政府就回应：当然可以。

I understand that there are free markets, but could we not imagine a world where people said, I wanna become a writer or a historian or an astronaut or a psychiatrist, and government said, sure.

我们会想办法帮你实现。

We'll find a way to make that happen.

如果每个人都在全力帮助他人实现梦想，而且真有政府官员为此负责，这个世界该有多好。

Imagine how much better the world would be if everyone was obsessed with helping each other achieve their dreams, and somehow, there was a government official somewhere accountable for making that happen.

我们在测量梦想这方面还有很多事想做，现在才刚刚开始。

There's so much more we still wanna do in our work in measuring dreams, and we're really just getting started.

首先，我们希望每隔几年就做一次这项调查，看看这些梦想如何随时间变化。

For one, we hope to run this survey every few years to see how these dreams change over time.

我们还想在其他市场开展调查，看看菲律宾人的梦想和马来西亚人、阿联酋人的梦想有什么不同，推动全球各国政府和企业更认真地对待梦想。

We also want to run the survey in other markets to see how the Filipino dream might be different from the Malaysian dream or the Emirati dream and encourage governments and companies around the world to begin taking dreams more seriously.

那就让我们来测量梦想吧。

And so let's measure dreams.

让我们来测量人们心中的梦想，以及这些梦想的内容如何随时间变化。

Let's measure what people dream of and how the content of those dreams changes over time.

让我们看看人们觉得自己相比去年进步了多少，又预计明年能取得多少更大的进展。

Let's measure how much progress people feel like they made versus last year and how much more progress they think they'll make looking into next year.

接着，测量人们是否觉得各种机构是在帮助他们实现梦想，还是在拖后腿。

And then let's measure whether people perceive institutions as helping them or holding them back from achieving those dreams.

然后，创造能让人们真正活出梦想的环境。

Then let's create the conditions that allow people to truly live their dreams.

毕竟，我们每个人都还是想在长大后成为某种人。

After all, we all still want to be something when we grow up.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这是兰斯·卡蒂加布在2025年BCG举办的TED演讲。

That was Lance Katigbak at TED at BCG in 2025.

如果你想了解TED的选题标准，可以访问ted.com/curationguidelines。

If you're curious about TED's curation, visit ted.com/curationguidelines.

今天就到这里了。

And that's it for today.

《TED 每日演讲》是 TED 推出的播客。

TED Talks Daily is a podcast from TED.

本期节目由 TED 研究团队核对事实，由玛莎·埃斯特瓦诺斯、奥利弗·弗里德曼、露西·利特、艾玛·陶布纳和坦西卡·苏恩拉农共同制作与剪辑。

This episode was fact checked by the TED research team and produced and edited by our team, Martha Estevanos, Oliver Friedman, Lucy Little, Emma Taubner, and Tansika Sunglarnivong.

特别感谢达尼埃拉·巴拉雷佐、克里斯托弗·法齐·博根、瓦伦蒂娜·博哈尼尼、常斑斑、布莱恩·格林和莱妮·洛特的支持。

Additional support from Daniella Ballarezo, Christopher Fazy Bogan, Valentina Bohanini, Banban Chang, Brian Green, and Lainie Lott.

更多内容请访问 podcasts.ted.com。

Learn more at podcasts.ted.com.

我是伊莉丝·胡。

I am Elise Hu.

明天同一时间，我会带来一个让你双脚焕然一新的新点子。

I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feet.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

今天的市场变化太快了。

Today's markets move fast.

想在十分钟内掌握关键洞察？来听巴克莱投资银行全新推出的《巴克莱简报》播客。

Get the insights you need in ten minutes with The Barclays Brief, a new podcast from Barclays Investment Bank.

每周，我们的顶尖专家通过犀利对话和情景分析，解读市场核心趋势。

Through sharp dialogue and scenario based analysis, our leading experts analyze key market themes each week.

无论你是管理投资组合，还是领导企业，《巴克莱简报》都能帮你做出更明智的决策。

So whether you're managing a portfolio or leading a business, the Barclays Brief podcast can help you make smarter decisions today.

保持敏锐。

Stay sharp.

保持知情。

Stay briefed.

在你常用的播客平台搜索《巴克莱简报》即可收听。

Find Barclays Brief wherever you get your podcasts.