为什么未来属于人类……加上人工智能 | 萨尔·卡恩与埃丝特·佩瑞尔

你正在收听TED Talks每日节目，我们每天为你带来新想法，激发你的好奇心。

You're listening to TED Talks daily where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day.

我是你的主持人，Elise Hu。

I'm your host, Elise Hu.

我们继续带来原创系列TED Intersections的下一集。

We're back with the next episode of our original series, TED Intersections.

这个节目呈现专家之间无脚本的对话，探讨塑造我们世界的各种想法。

The show features unscripted conversations between experts navigating the ideas shaping our world.

随着人工智能以前所未有的速度重塑工作、日常生活以及几乎所有事物，我们不断回到一个你们很多人可能都在思考的问题。

As AI reshapes work and daily life and just about everything at a speed that's hard to keep up with, We keep circling back to a question many of you may be wondering.

机器无法取代的人性部分是什么？

What part of being human can't a machine take over?

有一个答案令人惊讶，因为它出现在一个意想不到的地方——就业市场。

There's one answer that's surprising because it's showing up in an unexpected place, the job market.

这是一种技能或一组技能，是职场真正需要的。

This is a skill or set of skills that the workplace actually wants.

而且他们不再称之为软技能了。

And they're not calling it soft skills anymore.

他们称之为持久技能。

They're calling it durable skills.

这些是人类技能。

And these are human skills.

这些技能让你成为更好的人。

These make you a better human being.

所以这就是一个例子，说明职业本身在要求你成为更好的人。

So this is an example of the vocation is asking for you to become a better human.

那是萨尔·汗，TED的愿景守护者，也是可汗学院的首席执行官，他整个职业生涯都在重新思考我们如何学习。

That's Sal Khan, TED's vision steward and CEO of Khan Academy, who has spent his career rethinking how we learn.

他正在与关系治疗师埃丝特·佩雷尔对话，她则一直在重新思考我们如何去爱。

He's in conversation with relationship therapist Esther Perel, who has spent hers rethinking how we love.

他们一起探讨了人类如何理解不确定性的历史，我们是真的在变得更好，还是只是在优化，以及我们是否真的开始把爱当作商品来对待。

Together, they get into the history of how we've made sense of uncertainty, whether we're actually getting better at living or just better at optimizing, and whether it's true that we've started to treat love like a commodity.

优化就是人们拥抱浪漫消费主义的时候。

Optimizing is when people embrace romantic consumerism.

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

当他们把彼此商品化的时候。

When they commodify each other.

当他们

When they

带着一份购物清单去寻找人生伴侣。

go with a shopping list looking for a life partner.

他们并非在所有事情上都意见一致，但他们最终都抱有同样的希望，即未来不一定是人类与机器的对立。

They don't agree on everything, but they land in the same hopeful place that the future doesn't have to be human versus machine.

也许可以是人类与机器的结合？

Maybe it can be human plus?

这将在短暂休息后马上为您呈现。

That's coming up right after a short break.

从全球化到创新，从可持续性到市场波动，事情总是不止一面。

From globalization to innovation, sustainability to market volatility, there's always more than one side to a story.

通过巴克莱投资银行的《另一面》播客，探索当今最重要商业和经济议题的不同视角。

Explore different perspectives on today's most important business and economic issues with the flip side podcast from Barclays Investment Bank.

这里有两位研究分析师的精彩辩论，从各个角度获取见解，进一步丰富你的观点。

Here are two research analysts in a lively debate and get insights from every angle to further inform your view.

在你最喜欢的平台上收听《另一面》。

Listen to the flip side on your favorite platform.

在我们的时代，每周都有世界级的研讨会。

In our time is a world class seminar every week.

为什么杰里米是一只孤独的蜗牛？

Why was Jeremy a lonely snail?

三世纪时，约克的线条在做什么？

What were lines doing in York in the third century?

我是米莎·格伦尼，每周我都会与专家嘉宾一起，探索塑造我们世界的各种思想。

I'm Misha Glennie, and every week, I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

这真的是最早几次你能看到有人持续画牙齿的时候之一。

It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth.

我知道这听起来很疯狂。

I know that sounds bonkers.

如果我要定义数学，我会说它是研究结构的学科。

If I was gonna define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

在我们的时代，

In our time,

无论你在哪里获取播客，都可以收听。

listen wherever you get your podcasts

或者在YouTube上观看。

or watch on YouTube.

茶还是咖啡？

Tea or coffee?

喜欢一杯。

Love a cup

一杯茶。

of tea.

那么，今天我们的TED对话开始了。

And now our our TED conversation of the day.

让我担心的是，我们越来越脱离实体世界。

What worries me is that we are more and more disembodied.

我们聚会的次数越来越少。

We gather less.

我们办派对的次数越来越少。

We party less.

我们喝酒的次数越来越少。

We drink less.

我们……

We...

在美国餐厅里做的食物，有74%是在餐厅外面吃的。

74% of food that is cooked in an American restaurant is eaten off the premises.

让我担心的是，我们无法真正应对人类生活中那些杂乱无章的部分，而这是我们被要求去做的。

What worries me is that we can't really deal with the messiness of human life the way that we are called upon to do.

我们该从哪里开始呢？

Where should we begin?

Shana，你先来吗？

Shana, do you go first?

我们认为……

We think...

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

让我想想。

Let me see.

让我……

Let me...

我稍微洗一下牌，趁它还没……

I'll shuffle it up a little while it's not...

好的。

Okay.

我就选这张，以防他们作弊。

I'll pick this just in case they rigged it.

如果你能从头重新设计一个系统，那会是什么，为什么？

If you could redesign one system from scratch, what would it be and why?

我其实……

I actually...

如果你给我那张卡片，我会把它放回碗里。

If you give me that card, I would put it back in the bowl.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

你不回答那个问题吗？

You don't answer that?

不。

No.

因为我实际上不认为我有……

Because I actually don't think that I have...

没有哪个系统我会从头重新设计，但我只熟悉一个系统，那就是心理健康系统。

There is no system that I would redesign from scratch, but there's only one system that I know well, and that is the mental health system.

所以我觉得，在心理健康机构里，无论是制度层面、培训方面、服务提供，还是与法律体系、医疗体系的连接，都有很多可以改进的地方，这确实是一个巨大的系统性改革。

So I think that there's so much that one can do to improve the services in mental health institutionally, training wise, service delivery, interconnection to the legal system, to the medical system, it's a huge systemic redesign.

而实际上，我处理的是非常小的系统，比如夫妻、家庭、团体。

And I actually work with very small systems, couples, families, groups.

我的系统是微观系统。

My systems are microsystems.

你觉得哪个系统你会从头开始重新设计？

What would you say is one system that you would redesign from scratch?

哦，嗯，可能就是这个……

Oh, well, probably the one

这是个很大的问题。

It's an enormous question.

很大的……

A big

很大的……

it's a big...

嗯，你回答得很好。

Well, you had a good answer.

你回答得很好。

You had a good answer.

大家可能期待我回答的那个系统，就是教育系统。

The one people would expect me to answer, this would be the system, is the education system.

我经常说，理想的教育系统应该是高度个性化的。

I talk a lot about that we've always known that the ideal education system is one that's very personalized.

我总提到，亚历山大大帝有亚里士多德作为他的私人教师。

I always talk about that Alexander the Great had Aristotle as his personal tutor.

在人类历史的大部分时间里，如果你有资源，如果你是年轻的王子，你确实能接受很好的教育。

And throughout most of human history, if you had resources, if you were a young prince, you did have a very good education.

快进到两三百年前，我们有了一个非常理想化的概念——大众公共教育。

You fast forward to two three hundred years ago, we have a very utopian idea, mass public education.

但我们必须做出妥协。

But we had to make compromises.

我们不得不把学生分批，让他们以同样的速度一起前进，还要有国家规定的课程标准。

We had to batch students together, move them all together at the same pace, have some state mandated curricula standards.

如果学生没理解一个概念，得了C，那这个C就永远留在他们的成绩单上，他们还得带着这个C继续学习，而不是有机会继续学，把它提高到B或A。

If a student doesn't understand a concept and gets a C, too bad that C is in their transcript forever and they move on having to build on that C as opposed to having a chance to keep learning it so they can get it to a B or an A.

所以，我不会搞一刀切，而是会个性化。

So I would, instead of making it one size fits all, I'd make it personalized.

不是只有一次机会拿成绩，然后带着这个差距继续，而是基于掌握程度，也就是继续学习，就像你今天学乐器或运动，成为奥运选手那样。

Instead of making it you only get one shot to get the grade, then you build on that gap, I would make it mastery based, which means keep learning, which you would do today if you're learning a musical instrument or a sport, becoming an Olympian.

我认为证书也应该这样。

And I think the credentials should be the same way.

高等教育也应该这样。

Higher education should be the same way.

应该看你知道什么，而不是你在椅子上坐了多久。

It should be what you know, not how long you sat in a chair.

但你关注的是掌握程度和知识获取。

But you are looking at mastery and knowledge acquisition.

你定义的教育里，也包括人际关系这一块吗？

Do you include in your definition of education also the relational component?

百分之百。

100%.

而且我觉得这也是被忽视的一点。

And I think this is something that's also been missing.

人们一直强调线下教育重要的一个主要原因，就是它能建立社交联系、让人社会化、学会处理冲突和人际关系。

One of the main arguments people have always given for, especially why in person schooling is so important, is that's a way to build social connection, socialization, learn to deal with conflict relationships.

我同意，我们很多人都是在那里学会这些的。

And I agree, that is where many of us develop that.

但你的成绩单上可不会写你擅长合作、你是个好听众。

But nowhere on your transcript does it say that you are good at collaboration, you are a good listener.

所以我也想，而且我觉得未来几年我们有个有趣的机会，真的可以……

And so I would also, and I think we have an interesting opportunity in the coming years to really

你知道为什么吗？

Do you know why?

为什么？

Why?

因为人际关系技能和关系智能，即使在职场中，也一直被视为软技能。

Because relationship skills and relational intelligence, even in the workplace, has always been considered soft skills.

而软技能过去常被视为女性化的技能。

And soft skills used to be seen as feminine skills.

而女性化的技能往往在理论上被高度重视，实际上却被忽视。

And feminine skills are often highly regarded in principle and disregarded in reality.

现在这种情况正在发生根本性的改变。

And that is fundamentally changing now.

人际关系技能和关系智能第一次真正成为底线的一部分，被视为硬技能。

For the first time, relationship skills and relation intelligence are actually part of the bottom line, and they're seen as hard skills.

如果职场需要它，教育系统也会开始重视它。

And if the workplace needs it, the education system is gonna begin to value it too.

完全正确。

A 100%.

你知道，现在大家都在谈论AI，以及如何培养AI技能，我们正在和一些高等教育机构合作，包括TED和可汗学院，开展一些项目……

Know, all of the talk these days about AI and how you develop skills for AI, and we're working on some higher education initiatives, including with TED and Khan Academy on...

当我们和雇主交流时，是的，他们希望人们知道如何用AI写代码，以及如何使用各种模型。

And the skill, when we talk to employers, yes, they want people to know how to vibe code and do this with that model.

但他们真正看重的，现在他们称之为‘持久技能’的，

But the one they really care about, and they're calling them durable skills now

对，持久技能。

Yeah, durable.

是沟通、协作、创造力、倾听能力和人际关系技能。

Are communication, collaboration, creativity, listening skills, relationship skills.

所以完全同意。

So 100% agree.

但有趣的是，这来自职场，而且它会创造一种……

But it's interesting that it comes from the workplace, and it will create a...

就像职场、经济和技术变革一直在不断改变课程内容一样，现在它也将改变教育中的人际关系层面。

In the same way that the workplace and the economy and the technological changes have constantly changed the curriculum, Now it's going to change the relational aspects of education.

还有最后一件事。

And one last thing.

这个话题我们可以一直聊下去，但关于这一点，我只想说最后一件事。

We could talk the whole time on this I'll one say one last thing about that.

因为有时候人们会觉得，如果你是为工作做准备，那就是职业培训。

Because sometimes people view, oh, if you're preparing people for work, it's vocational.

而他们觉得这比纯粹的学术教育低一等。

And they view that as less than the pure academics.

但这是一个例子，说明……

But this is an example of...

这是一种技能或一组技能，是职场真正需要的。

This is a skill or set of skills that the workplace actually wants.

他们现在不再称之为软技能了。

And they're not calling it soft skills anymore.

他们称之为持久技能。

They're calling it durable skills.

这些是人的技能。

And these are human skills.

这些让你成为更好的人。

These make you a better human being.

所以这就是一个例子，说明职业本身在要求你成为一个更好的人。

So this is an example of the vocation is asking for you to become a better human.

你觉得这个世界需要但还没准备好去面对的那个对话是什么？

What is the conversation that you think the world needs to have yet isn't ready for yet?

我认为，在接下来的五到十年里，我们世界的几乎每个方面都很可能发生重大动荡。

There is a, I think, a high likelihood that we have major disruptions, actually, in almost every dimension of our world in the next five to ten years.

最明显的地方是在工作领域，从Uber司机——现在有Waymo无人驾驶车进来——到呼叫中心员工，再到软件工程师，这些工作要么会被彻底改变，要么可能会缩减。

The most obvious places in the world of work, where anyone from an Uber driver, you have the Waymo's coming in, to a call center worker, to a software engineer, those jobs are either going to be transformed dramatically or there might be shrinkage.

有些人说，哦，新工作总是会被创造出来的，但光有希望不是策略。

Some people say, Oh, new jobs always get created, but hope isn't a strategy.

如果我们不采取任何行动，那不仅仅是——这已经够糟糕的了，因为这些人有家庭——他们不会找到其他工作。

And if we don't do anything about it, it's not just, and this is bad enough because those people have families, they're not going to find other jobs.

这会产生连锁反应。

It has follow on effects.

但最大的影响之一会波及政治，导致两极分化。

But one of the biggest ones is going to go into politics, it's going to go to polarization.

很多人认为，我也同意，我们今天看到的很多两极分化是因为三十年的全球化。

A lot of people think, and I agree, that a lot of the polarization that we're seeing today is because of thirty years of globalization.

但那花了三十年。

But that took thirty years.

如果这只需要三年甚至五年，我们就没有相应的系统来应对。

If this takes three years or even five years, we don't have the systems to do something about it.

所以我认为我们必须进行这样的对话。

So I think we have to have that conversation.

我认为人们会重新寻求超越性的、精神性的东西，随便你怎么称呼它，因为随着AI开始侵入我们过去认为人类独有的领域，我们都会去寻找，一是我们需要工作中的目标。

I think there will be a reemergence of people looking for the transcendent, the spiritual, whatever you want to call it, because as AI starts to encroach on the things that we used to think were uniquely human, we are all going to be looking, one, we need the purpose in work.

如果我们找不到，就会问，嘿，我如何为社会做贡献，我如何养活我的家人？

If we don't find that, Hey, how am I contributing to society and how am I supporting my family?

很难再去想别的事情。

It's hard to think about anything else.

但我们也想思考，我是什么？

But then we also want to think about, What am I?

在这个宏大的事物中，我是谁？

Who am I in this grand thing?

所以这些是我们应该更紧迫地去讨论的话题。

So those are the conversations we should be having with more urgency.

你觉得这些对话是什么？

What do you think are the conversations?

我参与并试图塑造的对话是关于人际关系的。

I mean, the conversation I am participating in and trying to shape as well is the conversation about relationships.

因为我认为人际关系正在经历一场巨大的变革。

Because I think relationships are undergoing a massive makeover.

规范正在我们脚下发生改变，而我们不一定具备相应的技能，因为全球化是一部分，但社会萎缩是另一回事。

The norms are literally shifting under our feet, and we don't necessarily have the skills because globalization is one piece, but social atrophy is something else.

所以我觉得它们比以往任何时候都复杂，尤其是在那些靠协商来组织的世界里。

And so I think they are more complicated than they've ever been, certainly in the parts of the world where they are organized by negotiation.

不再关乎责任、义务、忠诚和社群。

It's no longer about duty and obligation and loyalty and community.

那样你就知道该做什么，该接受什么，知道哪些能改变、哪些不能，也知道哪些决定由你负责，哪些是别人替你决定的。

Then you know what you need to do, you know what you need to accept, you know what you can and cannot change, and you know what decisions are on your shoulders and what is decided for you.

但如果你生活在个人主义模式里，个人是中心，你要去协商、做决定，那你当然有更多自由，但这要求一个非常不同的过程。

But if you live in a model of individualism that puts the individual in the center and you are to negotiate and to make the decisions, then you have a lot more freedom, of course, but it demands a very different process.

而且要求有适应能力。

And it demands adaptability.

要求灵活。

It demands flexibility.

要求出色的沟通技巧。

It demands excellent communication skills.

如果是父亲决定，没人争论，那你真的不需要发展太多沟通技巧。

You know, if it's father decides and nobody argues, then you don't really need to develop many skills of communication.

但如果关键在于被看见、被理解、感到被重视，那么我觉得，有趣的是，我去过很多地方，那里对一切都有宏大的目标，但唯独对人际关系没有。

But if it's about being seen and understanding and feeling valued, then so I think, interestingly, that I've go to a lot of places that have moonshots about everything, but there is not to be moonshot about relationships.

今天的家庭是什么样子的？

What is a family today?

我们如何定义关怀的范围？

How do we define the circle of care?

你知道吗？

You know?

人们想在自己的关系周围划出什么样的界限？

What are the boundaries that people want to draw around their relationships?

你知道吗？

You know?

你必须去协商。

You have to negotiate.

我找到合适的人了吗？

Have I found the right one?

我们是否……

Do we...

我准备好承诺了吗？

Am I ready for commitment?

是否……

Do...

是不是……

Is...

我们想要的东西一样吗？

Do we want the same things?

谁会半夜起来喂宝宝？

Who will wake up to feed the baby?

我们会有宝宝吗？

Will we have a baby?

几个宝宝？

How many baby?

我们想要这个孩子的时候是什么时候？

When do we want this baby?

我们会去看你父母吗？

Will we visit your parents?

我们会去看我父母吗？

Will we visit my parents?

我们会……

Will we...

从小事到大事，没完没了。

I mean, it goes on and on from the small to the big.

现在又变成了什么是AI伴侣。

And now it's what is AI companionship.

这太疯狂了。

It's wild.

别走开。

Don't go away.

我们稍作休息，马上回来继续这段对话。

We'll be right back with more of this conversation right after a short break.

本期节目由Wise赞助，Wise是管理你全球所需货币的智能方式。

Support comes from Wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the world.

你的生活是全球化的。

Your life is global.

你的钱也应该如此。

Your money should be too.

有些服务提供商承诺海外转账不收手续费。

Some providers promise no fees on overseas transfers.

别被忽悠了。

Don't be fooled.

额外费用往往藏在虚高的汇率里。

Extra costs often hide in bloated exchange rates.

选择Wise。

Choose Wise.

你可以用超过40种货币发送、支付和接收资金。

You can send, spend, and receive money in over 40 currencies.

汇率就像你在谷歌上看到的那样，透明可靠。

Count on the exchange rates that you'd usually see on Google.

这就是为什么数百万用户能节省数十亿的隐藏费用。

That's how millions save billions on hidden fees.

聪明选择。

Be smart.

明智理财。

Get wise.

访问wise.com。

Visit wise.com.

适用条款和条件。

Ts and cs apply.

在我们的节目时间里，每周都有世界级的研讨会。

In our time is a world class seminar every week.

为什么杰里米是一只孤独的蜗牛？

Why was Jeremy a lonely snail?

三世纪时，约克的人们在做什么？

What were lines doing in York in the third century?

我是米莎·格伦尼，每周我都会和专家嘉宾一起，探讨那些塑造我们世界的想法。

I'm Misha Glenney, and every week, I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

这真的是最早人们开始持续描绘牙齿的时期之一。

It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth.

我知道这听起来很疯狂。

I know that sounds bonkers.

如果让我定义数学，我会说它是研究结构的学问。

If I was gonna define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

在我们的时代，

In our time,

无论你在哪里收听播客，都可以听到我们的节目。

listen wherever you get your podcasts

或者在YouTube上看。

or watch on YouTube.

茶还是咖啡？

Tea or coffee?

我喜欢一杯

Love a cup

茶。

of tea.

关于我们未来如何相互联系，你最担心的是什么？

What worries you about the future of how we connect with each other?

让你兴奋的是什么？

What excites you?

我喜欢的是，也有让你兴奋的事情。

I love the fact that there is also what excites you.

让我担心的是，我们越来越生活在一个无接触的世界里，你甚至不必离开家门。

What worries me is that we are living more and more in a contactless world, that you don't have to leave your house.

你不需要。

You don't.

你可以养活自己，可以工作，可以锻炼，可以吃饭，可以购物，可以……

You can make a living, you can work, you can exercise, you can feed yourself, you can shop, you can...

我的意思是，这简直……

Mean, it's just...

这真是不可思议。

It's an unbelievable thing.

而这正是大量人际接触点正在消失。

And that is an enormous amount of points of contact that are being deleted.

所以这……

So it...

我们正变得越来越像机器。

You know, we are becoming more machine.

不仅仅是我们在与机器互动。

It's not just we are interacting with machines.

也许机器最终会和我们很像。

Maybe the machines are gonna actually resemble us quite a bit.

让我担心的是，我们越来越脱离实体了。

What worries me is that we are more and more disembodied.

我们越来越少地面对面，在真实生活中。

We are less and less in real person, in real life.

我们聚会少了，派对少了，喝酒也少了，我们……

We gather less, we party less, we drink less, we...

美国餐厅里做的食物，有74%是在店外被吃掉的。

74% of food that is cooked in an American restaurant is eaten off the premises.

所以那整个方面……

So that whole aspect of...

让我担心的是，我们在人际关系中追求的是应用程序给我们的那种可预测性和完美性。

What worries me is that we look for the same kind of predictability and perfection that the apps give us in our relationships to other humans.

我们希望他们同样完美和可预测。

We want them to be just as perfect and predictable.

让我担心的是，我们无法真正应对人类生活的复杂性，就像我们被要求做的那样。

What worries me is that we can't really deal with the messiness of human life the way that we are called upon to do.

让我兴奋的是，我们一些基本的人类需求如此强烈，以至于我们会找到连接的方式，即使是与机器连接。

What excites me is that some of our fundamental human needs are so strong that we will find ways to connect even if it's connecting to a machine.

我们会找到表达我们的渴望、抱负、思念、失落和对被崇拜的需求的方式。

You know, we will find ways to express our longings, our aspirations, our yearnings, our loss, our need for adoration.

而我真正感兴趣的是小团体的激增，新的小团体围绕共同的目标、共同的愿景或一项活动而聚集。

And what I really am interested in is the proliferation of small groups, new small groups that come together around a shared purpose, a shared vision, an activity.

就像你看到的那样，人们厌倦了总是待在屏幕前，面对面见到另一个人或一群人，总有些特别之处。

It's like you see that there's a fatigue of just being constantly on a screen, there's something about meeting another human or humans in person.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

有时候很容易觉得自己生活在历史的特殊时刻，但我确实认为我们正生活在历史的特殊时刻。

It's it's easy sometimes to think that you live in a special moment in history, but I do think we're living in a very special moment in history.

过去几十年里，很多人一直在理论化进入某种奇点的可能性。

A lot of people have been theorizing about entering some type of a singularity for the last several decades.

就我们所知，我们正处在这个奇点之中，无论是人工智能、生物技术，还是操纵人类基因组。

And as far as we can tell, we are in that singularity, whether it's artificial intelligence, biotech, manipulating the human genome.

这些事情都在同时汇聚。

I mean, of these things are converging at the same time.

而奇点的一个特点就是你不知道另一边是什么。

And one of the things that defines a singularity is you don't know what's on the other side.

所以，这本身就令人害怕。

So that, by definition, is scary.

我们害怕那些我们不了解、无法预测的事情。

We're afraid of things that we don't understand that we can't predict.

而且我觉得……

And I think...

而且这正在加速发生……

And it's happening at a accelerating...

所以，我确实很担心。

And so I do worry.

你刚才说的完全正确。

Everything you you just said is 100% true.

我可以插一句吗？

May I say something?

我经常听到这种说法，说我们有一定程度的确定性，而我们一直都有巨大的不确定性，但我们有宗教。

I hear it a lot, this thing about we have some certainty, and we are we have always had uncertainty, massive uncertainty, but we had religion.

宗教是……之间的中介。

Religion was the intermediary between...

我们信任宗教。

And we trusted religion.

信任是未知与已知之间的中介。

The trust is the intermediary between the unknown and the known.

宗教帮助你在……

And religion helped you on the...

应对那些无法理解的事情，比如为什么人们会受苦，不是他们不会受苦，而是如何承受苦难，以及为什么坏事会发生在好人身上，关于道德和邪恶的问题。

Deal with the unintelligible, with why people suffer, not that they won't suffer, but how to bear the suffering, and with why bad things happen to good people, the question of morality and evil.

所以我们有一套系统，帮助我们应对生活中的伦理和存在困境。

So we had a system in place that helped us with the ethical and the existential dilemmas of our lives.

我不认为我们的不确定性更少或更多，除了二战后那段短暂时期，我们那一代人有过一种无限的乐观。

I don't think we were less or more uncertain, except for a very short period in time after World War II where my generation had a kind of a boundless optimism.

但除此之外，我认为我们失去的是过去用来应对不确定性的机制，而不是我们面临更多的不确定性。

But for the rest, I think that what we have lost is the mechanisms that we used to use to deal with our uncertainty, not the fact that we have more uncertainty.

对。

No.

而且你说得对，这是个好观点。

And it's a good point too, because you're right.

在人类历史的大部分时间里，不确定性……

For most of human history, the the uncertainty...

你

Did you

是在宗教环境中长大的吗？

grow up in religion?

我并不是在一个宗教家庭长大的。

I did not grow up in a religious family.

而且……

And, you know, to...

但我同意你的看法。

But I agree with you.

我其实认为你会看到宗教或类似宗教的东西复兴，而且我确实觉得这可能会让人兴奋。

I actually think you're going to see a revival of religion or religion adjacent types of And I actually find that that can be exciting.

我认为那可能会是件好事。

I think that's going to be that could be a good thing.

你说得对。

You're right.

尽管我可能会说，哦，奇点，两三年后会是什么样子？

Even though I might say, Oh, singularity, what's it going to be like in two or three years?

不确定性。

Uncertainty.

实际上，在人类历史的大部分时间里，不确定性就是：我下一顿饭从哪里来？

The reality is, for most of human history, the uncertainty was, Where am I going to get my next meal?

哦，那个邻近的部落要来杀我们了。

Oh, that neighboring tribe wants to come and kill us.

哦，我的孩子可能活不到五岁。

Oh, my child's probably not going to live until they're five years old.

现在，这些大多不是我们担心的事了。

Now, most of those things aren't our concerns.

尤其是在大多数发达国家，我们不用担心吃饭问题。

Especially in most of the developed world, we're not afraid of feeding ourselves.

而更多的是像人类目的、AI能做什么这类更宏观的问题。

And they are these more meta level things of human purpose and what's that AI going to be able to do.

但在某种程度上，一个社会，即使你对庄稼或去哪里狩猎采集食物等有不确定性，至少你对自己在其中的位置是确定的。

But will, to some degree, a society in which, even if you have uncertainty around your crop or where you're going to go find the next food to hunt and gather or whatever, at least you have certainty about your place in it.

你有这种确定性，比如，哦，宗教可以提供一些这样的框架，文化传统，

You have certainty of like, oh, and religion can provide some of that framework, cultural traditions,

就是你在

just where

你

you

的位置。

fit in.

仪式。

Rituals.

仪式。

Rituals.

我觉得可怕的是，我们不知道自己在世界上会处于什么位置。

And I think that's the scary thing is that we don't know what our place is going to be in this world.

但让我兴奋的是，这是一个机会去建立、重建，甚至复活一些我们历史上一直存在的东西，而我们意识到我们需要它们，比如宗教、仪式、其他形式的连接、文化、关系。

And what excites me though is it's an opportunity to build, rebuild, maybe resurrect some of these things that have been throughout our history and we realize we need it, religion, rituals, other forms of connection, culture, relationships.

我们将拥有更多的人才……

We're going to have even more abundance in terms of people...

现在严肃的人们都在谈论治愈疾病、理解宇宙和科学上的突破。

Serious people are talking about diseases being cured and understanding the cosmos and breakthroughs in science.

这太令人兴奋了。

Incredibly exciting.

但这些都是人类加上AI共同完成的。

But they are all human plus AI.

我觉得这……

I think that it's it's...

在这一点上，我们……

At this point, we...

需要改变的是人类与AI的对立关系。

What needs to shift is the human versus AI

必须变成人类与AI的合作。

Has to become the human plus.

这两者结合的力量中蕴含着某种东西。

There is something in the power of these two.

有一种东西能增强我的能力，这让我很感兴趣。

There's something about a thing that augments me.

如果我能很快联系到你……

I mean, you know, if I can call you soon...

我记得那些事实，对。

I mean, I remember the the facts Yeah.

关于第一次……

Of the first...

那个最初的时刻。

The the the first moment.

就像是……

It's like...

我一直很兴奋，因为我能以极快的速度与远方的人交流。

And I was all the time excited about the the rapidity, the speed with which I was gonna be able to communicate with people who were far away.

作为人类，我们还需要学习什么？

What do we still have to learn as humans?

太多了。

A ton.

天哪，我们才刚刚……

Man, we are just come...

我们是真的在让生活变得更好，还是只是在优化效率？

Are we actually getting better at living or just better at optimizing?

我觉得这……

I think it...

这可能是最好的问题。

That is probably the best question.

因为当我想到爱情和人工智能时，我觉得我们现在正在把亲密关系优化成某种可控、可量化、可丢弃的东西。

Because when I look at love and AI, I I think that we, at this moment, are optimizing intimacy into something that is manageable, measurable, and disposable.

而且我们把衡量标准和市场逻辑用在了爱情上。

And we have borrowed metrics and markets to love.

这是最令人惊叹的事情之一……

It is one of the most incredible things that...

因为如果有一样东西从未被数据定义过，那就是爱。

Because if there is something that has never been defined in data, it's love.

它不是……

It's it's not...

它是一种感觉。

You know, it it's a feeling.

它是一种状态。

It's a condition.

它是一种境况。

It's a state.

它是一种行动。

It's an action.

它是一个可以变位的动词。

It's a verb that you conjugate.

它包含太多东西了。

It's so many things.