朱迪·穆雷：培养两位世界第一冠军的秘诀

这就是父母的职责，不是吗？

That's the job of a parent, isn't it?

你给他们翅膀，让他们能够飞翔。

You give them wings so they can fly.

他们必须变得独立。

They have to become independent.

他们必须能够独立思考。

They have to be able to think for themselves.

他们必须能够解决自己的问题。

They have to be able to solve their own problems.

如果你是个父母，哦，我们回家路上去麦当劳，因为你赢了。

If you're a parent that, oh, we have McDonald's on the way home because you won.

不。

No.

你输了，所以你得不到麦当劳。

You're not getting McDonald's because you lost.

他们开始觉得只有赢了才被重视，赢了就有奖励，输了就几乎像是一种惩罚。

They start to feel that they're only valued and that there's a reward if you win and there's a almost like a punishment if you Yeah.

别赢。

Don't win.

父母的一句错话、一个错误的举动，或对他们说的话，都可能毁掉一切。我真的很享受观看卡洛斯的比赛。

Parents can ruin everything with a wrong word behavior, a wrong gesture, or what they're saying to them at I have really enjoyed watching Carlos Yes.

你知道的，我去伊比萨，因为我要和朋友一起庆祝。

You know, go to Ibiza because I celebrate with my friends.

我去打高尔夫。

I go and play golf.

我喜欢这样，因为生活不止有网球。

I I love that because there is more to life Yep.

不止是网球。

Than just tennis.

安迪在退役后提到的一件事是，他希望自己能有更多时间去享受成功的时刻。

One of the things that Andy said after his career was he wished he'd had more time to enjoy the successes.

大家好，各位粉丝。

Hello, Insiders.

我是卡罗尔·加西亚。

It's Carol Garcia.

在开始之前，有一件小事要提醒一下。

Before we start, one quick thing.

如果你喜欢这场对话，请点击订阅按钮。

If you enjoy this conversation, hit the subscribe button.

这是帮助我们成长并持续为你带来喜爱的球员和教练的最好方式。

It's the best way to help us grow and keep bringing you the players and coaches you love.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

朱迪，非常感谢你今天加入我们。

Judy, thank you so much for being with us today.

这真的是一种荣幸。

It's really a privilege.

你是怎么开始打网球的？

How did you start with tennis?

我很久以前就开始打了，我想那时候我十岁，那时候球员们用的是木制球拍和白色网球，那时候根本没有迷你网球这一说，也没有缩小的球场和迷你球拍之类的。

I started a very long time ago, I think I was 10 years old and in those days players played with wooden rackets and white tennis balls, you know there was no such thing as mini tennis and you know they abbreviated courts and mini rackets and so forth.

我很幸运，我的父母都是地区级别的优秀球员，等我长大到能握住球拍时，他们就教我怎么打，他们不是教练，但教会了我打球，那是在邓布林网球俱乐部，我是通过实际打球学会这项运动的。

I was very fortunate that my mum and dad were both good regional level players and when I was big enough to hold the racket they showed me how to play, they weren't coaches, but they showed me how to play and that was at Dumblin Tennis Club and yeah, I learned how to play the game by playing the game.

没有人专门教我如何击球或掌握精湛的技术，我只是学会了聪明地打球，所以我战术意识很好，而且是个不错的小小运动员，但那时候在苏格兰，网球纯粹是夏季运动，我们天气很差，所以冬天我会打羽毛球或者其他运动，网球通常只从四月打到九月左右，之后就结束了。

Wasn't coached to how to hit the ball or have great technique and so forth, I just learned to be smart and play the game, so tactically I was good and I was a good little athlete, but in those days tennis was very much a summer sport in Scotland, we have very bad weather and so I played badminton or something else in the winter, but tennis you just really played from sort of April to maybe the September and then that was it.

你现在还打吗？

Are you still playing?

我不打了，是我自己选择不打的，我觉得我的生活已经被网球填满了，所以有空闲时间时，我不想再上球场，因此我不打了，我喜欢匹克球。

I don't play anymore, I choose not to, I think my life got saturated with tennis, so when I had free time I want to be on the tennis court, so no I don't play anymore, I like paddle,

我

I

我挺喜欢打高尔夫球的，虽然打得不多，但大约三年半前我开始打高尔夫，这在苏格兰再合适不过了，毕竟这里是高尔夫的发源地。

quite like pickleball, I don't play at loads, but about three and a half years ago I started playing golf, which is perfect for Scotland, it's the home of golf.

我爱高尔夫，我没想到会如此爱上它，但我真的很享受打高尔夫的乐趣。尽管如此，我仍然参与这项运动，继续与WTA合作开展社区参与项目，这让我有机会分享我开发的所有让网球在入门阶段变得有趣且易于上手的项目、活动、练习和训练方法。

I love golf, I didn't expect to fall in love with it, but I really love playing golf, but I'm still involved in the game, still work with the WTA on the community engagement programme and that gives me the opportunity to share, I suppose all the programmes, activities, exercises, drills that I have developed to make tennis fun and doable in the starter stage.

这正是我一直以来专注的方向。

That's really what I've focused on.

大约在2016年，我完全退出了顶尖赛事，那时我感到压力越来越大。

I came away from the top end of the game completely in about 2016, started to find it very stressful.

我觉得我为联合会杯效力了大约五年，而安迪和杰米那时正处于运动巅峰，我感到压力很大，而我始终希望享受运动的乐趣，于是我决定不再参与顶级赛事，而是回到我最初开始的地方，努力在苏格兰各地推广网球、让更多人有机会接触网球。后来我开始与WTA合作，现在我可以将这份热情推广到全球，这非常有趣。

I think I had done Fed Cup for about five years, Andy and Jamie were at the top of the game and I found it stressful and I wanted to always enjoy my sport, so I just made the decision no more top of the game, I'm going back to where I started and try to spread the love for tennis or the opportunity to try tennis initially across Scotland and then I started to work with the WTA so I can actually do that globally now which is great fun.

是的，我们有机会在美国布朗克斯和利雅得分享了这些经历。

Yeah, we got the opportunity to share two of this experience in US in Bronx and in Riyadh.

我真的很惊讶地看到你在球场上对网球充满热情，努力用简单而有趣的方式教孩子们打网球。

And I mean, yeah, I found it fascinating to see you on court with like so much passion for tennis and like try to find a way to make those kids learn tennis with a simple way and with a fun way.

我认为这非常重要，我们确实需要像你这样的人来传递这份热情。

And I think it's very important and we definitely need people like this to share this passion.

是的。

Yeah.

我热爱我所做的事情，我意识到，自从屏幕普及以来，网球如今已成为一项复杂的协调性运动，孩子们在接触体育时往往缺乏基本的身体技能，而网球现在又要与众多其他活动争夺孩子们的时间。

I love what I do and I realise that tennis is a complex coordination sport nowadays since the advent of screens, children are coming into sports without just the basic physical skills that you need to be able to do, and tennis is competing with so many things now for children's time.

他们可以参与的休闲活动太多了，如果我们不能让这项运动的初次体验变得有趣、多彩、易上手、参与人数多，他们就会转向别的活动。因此，我设计了很多活动，能够做我所做的事情让我感到非常快乐，你也亲眼见过，我们确实能够容纳大量参与者。

There are so many leisure activities that they can do that if we don't make the first impressions of our sport fun, colorful, doable, big numbers, we lose them to something else, so I have created a lot of activity and it gives me a lot of pleasure to be able to do what I do and you know you've seen it in action that we can cater for big, big numbers.

无论是孩子、特殊需求人群、教练，还是家长带着孩子，我们都能在大型赛事的背景下，为网球营造热烈的氛围。

So whether it's kids, whether it's special needs, whether it's coaches, whether it's parents with their children, we can make a big buzz around tennis against the backdrop of the major events.

不错。

Nice.

你曾经是一名非常出色的球员，但后来你还培养出了两位伟大的冠军。

You were a pretty good player, but then like you've raised two great champions.

你当初和孩子们一起打球时是怎样的情况？

How were those beginnings with your kids?

你一开始有没有想过他们会成为职业选手，还是这一切都是自然而然发生的？

Did you had in mind or like a dream of them becoming pros or it just happened in a natural way?

绝对没有。

Definitely not.

我绝对没有这样的梦想。

I definitely didn't have a dream.

这很有趣，因为我觉得有些人以为我有，比如那些做父母的，像泰格·伍兹和厄尔·伍兹在高尔夫球界就是个很好的例子，还有理查德·威廉姆斯和塞雷娜、维纳斯，但我只是希望我的孩子们能享受运动。我年轻时热爱所有运动，当我的孩子还小的时候，我不是教练，但我对运动足够了解——因为我的父母热爱运动，经常和我以及我的兄弟们在花园、大厅里一起玩，不管是什么活动。我知道，如果你从小培养出手眼协调能力、良好的平衡感和敏捷性，这些我们过去习以为常的技能，是因为我们小时候都积极活动，而不是整天被屏幕拴住。我明白，如果在幼年时就发展出这些能力，就能为将来从事任何运动打下坚实基础。有了这些能力，你就能自信而熟练地参与运动，而能玩得好，自然也更有趣。所以我一直和孩子们积极互动，总是在家里、车道上、花园里发明各种游戏。我们当时没钱，天气又差，但我们玩得特别开心。

It's interesting because I think there are people who think that I did, you know, are parents who do, I mean Tiger Woods and Errol Woods is a great example on Golf, Richard Williams and Serena and Venus, but I just wanted my kids to enjoy sport and I loved all sports, you know, when I was young and I knew enough, when my kids were small I wasn't a coach, I knew enough about sport because of my parents being sporty and playing with me and my brothers in the garden, in the hall, you know, whatever it was, that if you develop those hand off or tie coordination skills and good balance, agility, all of these things that we used to take for granted because we all played actively, because we weren't plonked in front of a screen all the time, I knew that if you develop those skills at a young age you're setting a foundation for whatever sport you do, and if you have those skills you can do those sports competently and confidently, and it's more fun if you can do them, So really I was always playing actively with my kids, I was always inventing things we could do in the house, in the driveway, in the garden, we didn't have money, we have terrible weather, got really good.

我最得意的发明之一就是厨房乒乓球：用厨房餐桌，用麦片盒子当球网，买一个乒乓球，用饼干盒盖或特百惠容器当球拍。当我需要桌子吃饭时，他们就坐在地上，直接在地板上玩。我注意到，当他们坐在地上、身体不能自由移动时，就会自然地调整上半身动作，这个游戏迫使他们做出运动中必须具备的某些动作。

One of my best inventions was kitchen table tennis, so the kitchen table, the net was the cereal boxes, I bought the table tennis ball and I used a lid of a biscuit tin or a Tupperware for the bat and when I needed the table for food they sat on the floor and they played it on the floor and I noticed when they sat on the floor and they couldn't move they start to adapt the upper body so the game was forcing them to do certain things that you would obviously need in sport.

通过观察孩子们玩耍，我学到了很多：第一，他们不想听你唠叨，但他们想和你一起玩，而游戏本身就能教会他们。

And I learned so much from observing my children at play that I realized one, they don't want to listen to you talking, but they do want to play with you and the games will do the teaching for them.

这一直都是这样。

And that's how it always used to be.

就像老派的做法。

It's like old school.

就像回到过去。

It's like going back in time.

我的孩子们从小就发展出了良好的身体素质，他们小时候几乎尝试了所有运动，除了滑雪。最终，像大多数孩子一样，他们在八到十一岁之间逐渐专注于其中几项运动。

So my kids developed good physical skills at a young age and they pretty much tried every sport except skiing when they were young and eventually settled on a couple of them as kids do, usually between the ages of eight and 11.

所以安迪踢足球和打网球，杰米打高尔夫和网球，不，我只是希望他们享受运动。

So Andy was football and tennis and Jamie was golf and tennis, so no, I just wanted them to enjoy sport.

这就是我的目标。

That was my goal.

我从未真正想过，有趣的是，现在很多人问我这段经历，我会说，如果我当时知道现在这些事，我可能就不会做了，因为这条路太长、太贵、太有压力，而且你必须自己摸索，因为在个人运动中，责任全在父母身上。

Never really, and it's funny because now people ask me a lot about the journey and I say, you know, if I had known then what I know now, I probably wouldn't have done it because it's so long and it's so expensive and it's so stressful and you have to learn it for yourself because in an individual sport, the onus is on the parents to make it happen.

当然了。

Of course it is.

你要自己找教练、找俱乐部、安排训练、报名比赛、到处陪着、支付所有费用，成为人形ATM和人形洗衣房，在个人运动中你得包办一切，而如果孩子参加团队运动，俱乐部会帮你处理大部分事情。

You you find the coach, find the club, you find the training, you book the tournaments, you hang around, you pay for everything, you become the human ATM and the human launderette, you become everything in an individual sport whereas if your kids are good in a team sport the club takes care of most things for you.

这很不一样。

It's very different.

而且，我想对于孩子来说，当周围都是其他孩子时，更容易保持孩子的状态；而在网球这种运动中，环境比较孤单，孩子很容易陷入成年人的互动模式，这对小孩子来说可能不太理想。

Also, I guess it's, it's probably easier for the kid not to stay as a kid when you're like surrounded by more kids rather in tennis that it's quite lonely, you can easily get into adult dynamics, which might not be ideal for, for a little kid.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这完全正确。

Think that's absolutely right.

我想我们在网球俱乐部做得很棒的一件事是，我最初当志愿者时，孩子们还很小，我参与并不是因为他们的缘故，只是因为那里能让我每天有两小时离开家，让我妈妈照看他们。

And I think one of the things that we did really well at our Tennis Club, I started as a volunteer when my children were tiny, it wasn't anything to do with them other than it gave me two hours out of the house when my mum could look after them.

我按照自己被教导的方式去教他们，教他们打比赛，教他们理解优势和劣势，哪里有空档，如何逼对手跑动来制造困难——这和那些一上来就让孩子从捡球篮开始练的教练很不一样。是的，这就是我开始的方式。后来越来越多妈妈问能不能让她们的孩子也加入，我就开始用网球课程换照看孩子。

And I started to teach the way I had been taught, I taught them to play the game, I taught them to understand strengths and weaknesses or where's the spaces, making people run make it difficult, it was very different from the coaches who start you with the basket, so yeah that was how I started and as more and more moms asked if their children could join in, I started to trade tennis sessions, lessons for childcare.

我说，哦，我可以多上些课，但你们得帮忙照看Jamie和Andy，所以他们就在俱乐部里，身边堆着一大袋玩具，而我在球场上多教一些课。那时他们还很小，但等到他们六七岁，开始能打球的时候——那时候还没有红球、橙球和绿球，只有黄球和全场打法——我们俱乐部已经有几十个孩子在打网球了，简直成了一个充满乐趣的社区中心。那里还有乒乓球、壁球场地，隔壁就是公园，孩子们在那儿踢足球、打板球，就是那种你待着就不想走的地方，到处都是孩子，对他们来说，这从来就不仅仅是打网球，而对我来说，也从来都不是只有我和我的孩子。

Said, oh I could do some more hours, but you need to look after Jamie and Andy, so they're in the clubhouse with a big bag of toys and I'm on the court and I'm doing a bit more, and this is when they're very small but by the time they became like six and seven and they were starting to be able to play and this is before the red, orange and green ball, says yellow ball, full court, There were dozens and dozens of children at our club playing tennis, so it was like a huge community hub for just fun and you know there was table tennis, was squash courts, there was a park next door, they played football, they played, cricket in the park, it was just one of those places where you hung around and there was just loads and loads of children so it was never really ever just about the tennis for them, and I think, for me I was was always loads of kids.

从来就不是只有我和我的孩子。

Was never just me and my kids.

我觉得这对我有帮助。

I think that helped me.

我也是。

Me.

有帮助。

Helped

你觉得你没有给他们施加压力去成为优秀的网球选手，这反而帮助他们与这项运动建立了更健康的关系，对吗？

think the fact that you were not in there putting them pressure to be good tennis players also helped them have a healthier relationship with the sport?

是的，确实如此。

Yeah, very much so.

我认为在俱乐部里，始终是围绕着每一个人的。

I think in the club it was always about everybody.

我想，几年后当我成为国家教练时，我考取了一些资格认证，接着又考了更多，最后拿到了最高级别的认证，我是英国第一位通过这项认证的女性。但我考取这些认证后，依然觉得它们并没有教会我如何成为一名优秀的教练。

And I think that some years later when I became the National Coach, I did some qualifications and then I did some more qualifications and then I did the biggest qualification, I was the first woman to pass it in Great Britain, but I did these qualifications and I still didn't feel like they taught me how to be a good coach.

它们只是给了我大量信息。

They gave me lots of information.

在苏格兰，我没有任何人可以学习，没有成功的先例，没有顶尖选手，没有全职教练，没有国家训练中心，也没有任何基础设施。

I had nobody to learn from in Scotland, no track record of success, no big players, no full time coaches, no national centre, no infrastructure.

但当我通过那门课程后，国家教练的职位空缺出来了，有人对我说：‘你为什么不申请一下呢？’

But when I passed that course, the National Coach job came up and somebody said to me, why don't you apply for it?

我当时想，好吧，我确实有了这个资格认证，但这并不意味着我就是一名好教练。

And I thought, well, I've got this qualification, it doesn't mean I'm a good coach.

我通过了，是因为我聪明，能完成所有的项目和任务。

I passed it because I was clever, because I could do all the projects and things.

我不是因为是个好教练才通过的，但我必须吸收所有信息，并尝试去实践和从中学习。

I didn't pass it because I was a good coach, but I had to take all the information and try and experiment with it and learn with it.

我开始去其他国家参加研讨会和培训，向那些真正懂得如何执教的教练学习。

And I started to go to conferences and workshops in other countries to learn from coaches who knew what they were doing.

还有英国网球协会（LTA），因为他们是女性教练，给了我机会随12岁以下和14岁以下的女队外出旅行。

And also the LTA, which is the British governing body, they gave me the opportunity to travel with 12 and under 14 girls teams because I was a female coach.

当时女性教练极少，所以我有机会外出旅行，也正是从那时起我开始学习，我观察所有人，用老式摄像机拍摄录像——那时候那些设备还算新，但现在已经过时了——我到处做笔记，和每个人交流，我非常渴望学习，因为我希望帮助苏格兰的孩子们，让他们也能拥有其他国家孩子那样的机会。但当我成为国家教练后，我负责的是所有人，而不仅仅是我的孩子，这确实帮了我大忙，因为一对一或一对二的训练压力会非常大、非常紧张。

They had hardly any female coaches, so I got to travel and that's when I started to learn and I watched everybody and I filmed people with the old video cameras, you know the old fashioned They were new at the time but they were old fashioned, and I made notes everywhere, spoke to everybody and I really wanted to learn because I wanted to help the Scottish kids, I wanted them to have the same opportunities that other countries had, but when I became the National Coach it definitely helped me that I was the National Coach and I was responsible for everybody and not just my kids because it can become very pressurized and very intense when it's one on one or one on two.

是的。

Yeah.

你有没有想过亲自担任你孩子的主教练？

Did you ever think about coaching your kids as their main coach?

我教他们到大约11岁和12岁，之后我就意识到，作为国家教练，我不能让人觉得我在偏袒。

Well, I coached them up to about 11 and 12, and then I realized I'm the National Coach, I can't be seen to be favoritism.

假装，是的。

Faking, yeah.

而且，我也意识到，当一个男孩被妈妈当教练，并不是那么酷的事。

And, also I realized it's not that cool to be coached by your mum when you're a boy.

我意识到很多事，但同时在我的职责范围内，我也意识到需要开始组建一支团队，因为一些我们的年轻球员在英国国内层面变得非常出色，我需要有人来帮我，于是我开始招募一名学徒，他当时20岁，是个不错的球员，属于地区级水平，他有着像大卫·贝克汉姆那样的造型——染成金黄色的头发、戴满钻石，孩子们都觉得他特别酷，而我永远不可能有那种酷劲儿。我雇了他，对他说：‘我付不起你工资，但我能给你一个很好的学徒机会，你可以跟我一起旅行、一起工作，等等。’他非常渴望学习，后来他成为了英国戴维斯杯队长，并在多年里担任英国网球协会男子网球负责人。

There were lots of things I realized, but also within my role, I realized that I needed to start to build a workforce because some of our players, young players, were becoming so good in national, as in British terms, and I needed people to help me, so I started to, I took on an apprentice and he was 20, quite a good player, sort of regional level player and he had the David Beckham, you know the curtains, the bleached blonde hair, the diamonds, you know, and the kids all thought he was really cool in a way that I would never be cool ever, and I took him on and I said look I can't pay you but I can give you a good apprenticeship, you can travel, can work with me, whatever, whatever, and, he really wanted to learn and he in time became the Davis Cup captain for Great Britain and the head of men's tennis for the LCA for many years.

所以他就像我的第三个儿子，他的名字叫莱昂·史密斯。

And so he's like my third son, but his name is Leon Smith.

他为自己创造了一段非常出色的职业生涯，但他当初选择信任他，是冒了风险的，不过结果很好。

He made a really great career for himself, but he took a risk with him, but it worked.

对我来说，我可以掌控一切，所有事情始终围绕着我展开，我主导着全局，但我不必事事亲力亲为。

So for me I could set everything, it was always around and I was directing everything but I didn't have to have the direct thing.

但多年来，你知道，当你需要时就会换教练，而家长必须理解所有正在发生的事，因为一旦更换教练，你必须清楚正在训练什么内容，并把这些信息传递下去，因为孩子还小，记不住所有细节，也处理不了这类对话，所以我一直密切关注所有进展，但我保持一定的距离，是的。

But over the years you know you change coaches when you need to and the parents have to understand everything that's going on because when there's a change of coach you have to know what's being worked on, you have to take that with them because when kids are young they can't remember everything themselves, they can't handle those kind of conversations and so forth, so I always stayed very on top of everything that was going on, but I was arm's length, Yeah.

那就是

Which was

你是怎么在关注两个儿子的同时，又做好一个父亲的角色的呢？

And how did you find that balance between like having a look on what was happening with your two sons and also being a parent?

我觉得我最终意识到，做父母比做教练更重要。

I think I got to the stage where I realized it's more important to be the parent than to be the coach.

但我也意识到，就像我之前说的，在个人运动中，父母必须促成一切；而在我们这种资源和基础设施非常有限的国家，教练更不可能做到，必须由父母来推动。

But I also realized that, like I said before, in an individual sport the parent has to make everything happen, and in a country like ours with a very limited resource and infrastructure the coach is even less likely to make it happen, the parent has to make it.

所以我必须学习很多关于网球对我的要求——作为父母、作为教练，以及对我的孩子们在成长过程中的要求。

So I had to learn a lot about what tennis would demand of me as a parent, me as a coach and of my kids as they developed.

我觉得，就像我说的，当我获得国家教练职位时，我经验不足，但充满热情，没人想接这个职位，也没有人会从其他国家来到一个没有国家中心、没有室内球场、没有资金、没有成绩的地方，所以我清楚自己面对的是什么，我真的想尝试一下，但我觉得做父母更重要，而且正是这个角色让我作为父母保持了理智，当然，我也可以在这个职位上为我的孩子们促成很多正确的事情。

And I think that, you know, like I said when I got that National Coach role I was inexperienced, I had enthusiasm, nobody wanted the role, nobody is coming in from another country to somewhere that has no national centre, no indoor courts, no money, no track record, nobody, so I knew what I was getting into and I really wanted to try, but yeah I think it is more important to be the parent and I think it did keep me sane as a parent that I had the role, and of course I could make a lot of the right things happen for my kids within the role,

所以

so

是的，这确实是个非常不寻常的情况。

yeah it was quite an unusual Yeah.

这种情形，我

Scenario, I

我们做过一期采访，采访了伊瓦利奥·维西奇，他是一位非常出色的教练和球员。

We did an interview, an episode with Ivalio Vicic, who's been a great coach and a great player.

他也有一个孩子，大概17岁左右。

And he has a kid also, like, I think 17 or something like that.

我们问他是否想当孩子的教练。

And we asked him if he wanted to be his coach.

他回答说不，有两个原因。

And he was like, no, for two reasons.

第一，我觉得我无法对我的孩子保持客观。

First, I don't think I can be objective with my kid.

总会有一些情绪掺杂其中，所以我不确定自己是否适合这个角色。

There's always going to be some kind of emotion, so I'm not sure I'm the right person for it.

第二，为了区区400分去和孩子争执根本不值得。

And second, it will never be worth it to fight with my kid over a 400 him is.

我不想因为网球而和孩子闹矛盾、产生紧张关系。

Like, I don't wanna be mad with my kid and having tensions on because of Tennis.

我是说，我知道我可以帮他找一个好教练。

Like, you know, I can help him with setting him with a good coach.

如果他需要建议，我可以给，但我更想做他的父亲，这已经够我忙的了。

If he wants advice, I can give it, but I wanna be his father who is like, it's a full time job already.

是的。

Yeah.

这很好。

That's good.

非常明智。

Very sensible.

你如何一直努力让孩子们保持独立，不替他们做决定或过度保护他们呢？

How did you try to always have your kids independent in a way and like not overprotecting them with decision and things like that?

是的，我觉得对我而言，常识一直都很重要，现在常识并不常见，但我会想：我到底在为他们准备什么？

Yeah, I think think was always common sense for me is a big thing, nowadays common sense is not so common, but for me I'm thinking what am I preparing them for?

我的意思不只是在为他们打网球做准备，我是在为他们的生活做准备，他们必须学会独立，学会独立思考，学会自己解决问题，比如自己收拾行李，和我一起去超市，自己挑选零食，自己把球拍送去穿线，了解线的张力，学会适时更换拍柄，学会自己穿线。

I mean it's not just I'm preparing them for playing tennis, I'm preparing them for life, they have to become independent, they have to be able to think for themselves, they have to be able to solve their own problems, so things like packing their own bag, coming to the supermarket with me, choosing their own snacks for example, you take your own racket to the stringer, you understand what tension it is, you learn to grip your rackets in time, you learn to string your own rackets.

如果我们去旅行，无论是带我自己的孩子，我很少只带我自己的孩子，通常都是四人、六人、八人，有时候更多，我开面包车带过的最多人数是16人。

If we go on a trip, whether I was taking my own kids, I very rarely took my own kids, just me and them, nearly always four, six, eight sometimes, the biggest number I ever did in a minibus was 16.

大巴？

Bus?

16人？

16?

是的，我们会从苏格兰一路开车去参加英格兰各地的青少年大型赛事，我们通常离家至少五小时车程，孩子们都坐在面包车里，而我负责开车——那时候允许一名教练带这么多人，但现在不行了。我们车后还挂着苏格兰国旗，一路开去‘征服’英格兰，那种感觉就像是我们对抗他们，我们就像一家人，我想这就是我们成功的原因。

Yeah, we drive from Scotland down all the bigger tournaments for juniors, we're in England, so we were usually at least five hours away from everything, so they're in the minibus, I'm driving the minibus in the days when you could be one coach with this big number, nowadays you can't do that, and I would be driving it down and we have the Scotland flag in the back and we're going to conquer England, you know, so it was always like us against them sort of thing, we became like a family and I think that's why we were successful.

很多优秀的球员和教练都是从这个起点成长起来的，就像一种家庭作坊式的产业，因为我们所有人必须互相合作，毕竟资源有限，我们必须让大家感觉团结一致、目标相同，这非常重要。我喜欢这一切，因为当我打球的时候，机会很少，但我一直热爱团队活动和大规模的集体行动。

Had lot of good players came out of that starter and coaches came out of that starter like a cottage industry because we were all, we had to work together because we didn't have very much and we had to make it feel like we were all on the same page and you know and on a team, so that was a big, big part of it but yeah I liked all of that stuff because I think when I played there wasn't much in the way of opportunity but I always loved the team things and the big number things.

而且我们也明白，如果有16个孩子，就让年纪大一点的和年纪小的配对，他们必须互相照应，要观看比赛、观察对手，如果小的孩子输了比赛，我们就带他们去踢足球、玩水弹大战，或者玩牌，转移他们的注意力，避免他们沉浸在失败中。这是一种非常健康的环境，彼此照顾，从每件事中学习，抓住每一个成长的机会。

And it also understood that, you know, if I have 16 of them, buddy up the slightly older ones with the younger ones and they have to help to look after, they have to watch matches, they have to scout matches, they have to, if the little ones lose a match, you take them away and play football with them, or you play water bomb fights, or you play cards, you distract them from the loss, was a very wholesome environment of looking after each other, learning from everything, taking opportunities to learn.

所以，如果我带他们去海外旅行，我会对家长说：‘你们在机场的值机柜台等我。’

So if I took them on an overseas trip, I would say to the parents, you meet me at the airport and I'll be at the check-in desk for our flight.

我不会告诉他们具体是哪个值机柜台，什么细节都不说，因为我想让家长把孩子送到我这里，然后我对家长说：‘谢谢你们，太好了，接下来就交给我了。’接着我会对孩子们说：‘好了，你们自己去值机。’如果他们的行李超重，就得自己拿东西出来。有个孩子行李超重，打开一看，里面有六瓶Lucazade运动饮料，我立刻说：‘这重量可不行，必须拿掉。’因为我们要付超重行李费，对吧？行李都处理完了，接下来去哪儿？

I didn't tell them which check-in desk, I didn't tell them anything like that because I want them to find parents can bring them to me and I say thank you parents, that's great, you know blah blah blah blah from here and then I say to the kids okay you check-in and if their bag for example was overweight they're like you have to take something out' and you know one kid is like overweight and he opens the bag and it's got six bottles of Lucazade in it, Lucazade Sport, and I'm like that weighs, so you learn from that, no bin, out, because we're not paying for oversized luggage, right, the luggage is all gone, okay where are we going now?

我让他们自己做所有事情，因为现在我觉得父母会陪着孩子，替他们做一切。

I made them do everything because nowadays I think that the parents travel with them and the parents do everything for them.

他们在球场上必须学会自己思考。

When they're on the court they have to think for themselves.

你替他们做所有事，并不是在帮他们。

You're not doing them any favors by doing everything for them.

我觉得某种程度上，有些孩子从很小的时候就在网球或其他领域展现出很多天赋，大家都竭尽全力帮助他们成为球场上最好的自己，但他们不能忘记，作为一个人，还需要发展其他方面——比如个性，以及如何在球场之外照顾自己。

You think in a way there's like these kids who maybe show a lot of talent since very early on in tennis or maybe something else, And they're like, everyone is helping them to become the best version of themselves on the court, but they cannot forget of all the other stuff to develop as a human, your personality, how to take care of yourself outside of the tennis court.

当他们进入职业巡回赛时，可能打球非常出色，却不知道如何应对生活，也不清楚自己是谁、想要什么，这就是为什么他们最终会出现心理问题。

And maybe then they arrive on tour and they're like excellent playing, but they don't know how to figure out life or they don't know who they are, what they want in life and that's why they end up also having problems mentally.

我觉得这是一个非常重要的观点，现在在网球乃至其他个人运动中，这种情况经常发生：父母陪着孩子，为了证明自己的价值，只负责一个球员，却为他们做了远超必要的事情。

I think that's a very good point and I think that is often what happens in tennis and probably other individual sports now, that the parents travel with them, the parent tries to justify their existence because, and they're only responsible for one player, they end up doing much more for them than they need to.

在联合会中也可能发生这种情况，尤其是那些潜在优秀球员数量较少的联合会，他们往往会变得自以为是，因为从小就被当作特殊人物对待。

It can also happen in federations, especially federations that have small numbers of potentially good players, that they tend to become over entitled because they are treated like something special from a young age.

我们从未享受过这种优待，而且即使有机会也不会这么做，因为我明白，即使你团队里有一两个你觉得可能有潜力的孩子，你也需要让他们融入整个集体，因为他们不可能独自成功，如果总是和同一个人训练，那也毫无乐趣。所以我一直理解这种‘大团队’的理念，但我觉得，在当今世界，父母很容易过度干预，这样反而没有为孩子和青少年做好准备。对我来说，青少年阶段是一个相对舒适的环境。

We never had that luxury and never would have done it anyway because I understood that the power is even if you have one or two within your group that you think are the ones that might have a chance, you need to surround them with everybody else because they're not going to get there on their own, it's no fun if you're just practicing with the same person all the time, so I always understood that kind of big number thing, but I think it is very easy in this world now for parents to overdo everything and you're not preparing the kids, and juniors for me is a relative comfort zone.

当他们从青少年赛进入职业巡回赛的未来赛级别时，竞争异常激烈，你面对的是为房贷、孩子、汽车或下一场赛事奖金而战的成年人，只有最坚韧的人才能生存下来，你必须为他们做好准备。

When they go from juniors into the men's or women's tour on the futures level, it's dog eat dog and you're playing adults who are playing for their mortgage or their kids or their car or their money for the next tournament, and it's only the toughest really survive and you have to prepare them for that.

所以，如果你在青少年时期过度溺爱或过度保护他们，你就没有真正为他们未来可能面临的挑战做好准备。

So if you mollycoddle them or overprotect them in those junior years, you're not really preparing them for what might be ahead.

你是不是也觉得，对很多孩子来说，事情过早变得太严肃了？

You think also at the same time, like it gets too serious too soon for many kids?

确实如此。

Very much so.

我经常与非常年幼的球员合作，你知道，LTA体系中的初级赛事——我不确定其他国家是否也一样，但这些比赛完全以胜负为导向，只有赢了才能晋级，所以排名和积分成了人们谈论的焦点：你的排名是多少？你的积分是多少？你必须赢下一定数量的比赛才能前进，但如果你输了，就会处于劣势，甚至可能倒退或停滞不前。

I do a lot of work with very young players and you know, the starter tournaments which are part of the LTA system, I don't know if it's the same in other countries, but you know it's all driven by wins, wins or losses, that you can only move if you win, so you know rankings and ratings become this thing that people talk about, what's your ranking, what's your rating, and you've got to win a certain number of matches to move, but actually if you lose some matches you are disadvantaged and you can go back a little bit or you get stuck.

你还会看到家长不让孩子参加次级赛事，因为他们怕输，一旦在正赛中输了，就立刻把孩子撤出来。

And you see parents not allowing their kids to play in the back draw of things because they might lose, so you lose in the main draw and you just pull them out.

他们因此学不会坚韧和毅力，所以我认为，必须对家长进行更多教育、支持和指导，这在所有运动中都如此，但在网球这样的个人运动中，更需要从一开始就正视家长的角色。

And they don't learn resilience and perseverance, so I think that there needs to be a lot more education, support, advice for parents, actually in all sports, but in an individual sport like tennis, you need to acknowledge the role of the parent right from the start.

如果我们能花更多时间帮助家长理解这段旅程，以及作为父母需要承担什么，教会他们如何应对各种情况，成功的可能性就会更大，因为这必须是教练、家长和球员三方共同协作的三角关系。

The more time we can help the parents to understand the journey and what it's going to demand of them as a parent, help them with how to handle certain situations, the more chance we have of making it work because it has to be the coach, the parent and the player triangle they call it, think.

每个人都需要明白，父母始终拥有最大的话语权，永远都是如此，他们与孩子相处的时间占99%，教练只占1%。

Everybody needs to understand and the parent will always have the biggest say, always, they're 99% with the child, coach only 1%.

所以，我希望能更多地重视对父母的指导和支持。

So yeah, I would like to see a lot more emphasis on parent guidance and support

是的，要教会父母如何在网球中当好父母。

Yeah, all teaching the way parents how to be like good parents in the tennis.

没错，确实如此。

Yeah, it's true.

当你身为父母时，你也在同时努力理解生活。

When you're like a parent, you're also like trying to figure out life at the same time.

你并不是什么问题都有答案。

It's not that you have all the answers.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为关键在于父母是否出于正确的动机，还是因为他们把自己的梦想投射到孩子身上，这可能会让孩子感到压力过大。

I guess what it makes a big difference, no, it's if the parents are there for the right reason or it's because they have like this kind of projecting their dream into the kid and then maybe it's a bit overwhelming for the kid as well.

我认为，通过观察青少年网球中许多家长的行为，我学到了很多关于如何不当父母的经验——当孩子们输球后情绪低落，不愿意和父亲一起回家，因为父亲回家路上会非常生气，甚至一路上都不和他说话，这些信息都是从孩子们那里听来的。

I think I learned a lot about how not to parent by observing many parents in junior tennis, how they behaved with their kids and, or if the kids would come to me and they're upset and they've lost and they don't want to get in the car with their father on the way home because he's going to be really angry with me, he's not going to talk to me all the way home, you learn this from the kids.

孩子们会告诉你这些，这让他们感到焦虑，于是你才明白为什么他们打球时总是充满恐惧和谨慎，不敢冒险，因为他们害怕输球，害怕父母的反应。当然，世界上也有一些非常棒的家长，但小孩子通常不会对父母说：‘你别这样了’，或者作为家长，你不会因为孩子赢了就带他们去吃麦当劳，输了就完全不给奖励。

They're telling you and it's making them anxious and then you realise why they play with fear and caution and they don't want to risk anything and because they're scared to lose because of the way that the parents behave, don't get me wrong there are some very good parents out there, but little kids generally are not going to say to the parents, stop being like that, or if you're a parent that, oh we have McDonald's on the way home because you won, no you're not getting McDonald's because you lost.

他们开始觉得只有赢了才有价值，赢了就有奖励，输了几乎就像受惩罚。因此，我总是建议俱乐部和管理机构在家长支持方面投入更多资源。

They start to feel that they're only valued if win and that there's a reward if you win and there's almost like a punishment if you So don't I would always advise clubs and governing bodies to invest much more in parental support.

如果孩子从小就认为只有赢了才值得被爱，即使他们最终成为职业选手，也很难真正享受这项运动，也很难与这项运动建立健康的关系。

If that kid makes it, if they have learned that they are only worth it or lovable when they win, even if they make it to the pro level, it's going to be very hard for them to enjoy also what they're doing and have a healthy relationship with the sport.

这种观念已经深深植根于他们心中：赢了，他们就是了不起的人；输了，就一无是处。

It's like so rooted inside them that if they win they're a great human and if not they don't deserve anything.

你说得完全对，因为很多人并不理解生命最初七八年发生的事情，会对一个人的长期性格形成产生多大的影响。而这一点，我们所有人都可以帮助家长去理解。我并不是说我是专家，或者我一切都做对了。

You're absolutely right because I think many people don't understand the impact that something that happens in those first seven or eight years of your life and the way it affects the way that you are formed for the long term, and again that is something that we could all help parents to understand, and I'm not saying in any way that I'm an expert or that I got everything right.

不，你见过成千上万的家长，或者你至少

No, you've seen thousands of parents or On you have some

基于你自己的经验。

top of your own experience.

我也有自己的经验，但作为一名教练，我观察过许多父母做得很好的情况。

I've had my own experience, but as a coach I've observed many situations where there are parents who got it right.

有时他们做错了，但能从中学习；但也有一些人一直做错，而这些球员通常坚持不下去，或者最终出现某种焦虑、压力、对赢或输的恐惧，或者缺乏自信，因为他们渴望得到父母的认可——孩子们每次击球都会看父母，心里想着：‘你需要我吗？你看到刚才那一球了吗？’

Sometimes they get it wrong and they learn from it, but there are some who just continue to get it wrong and usually those players don't continue or they end up with some kind of, I don't know, just anxiety or pressure, fear of winning or fear of losing, be either, or lack of self confidence because it's like you want the validation for the parents, or the kids who look at the parents every time, every point, know like the parent is, I need you, oh did you see that one?

或者‘我发球失误时，我爸爸在四比一时就走了。’

Or oh my dad left at fourone when I lost my serve.

你怎么知道他走了？

How do you know he lost?

因为你一直在看啊。

Because you're looking all the time.

我经常看到这种情况，但我想，这正是我们可以帮助父母理解他们行为影响的地方。

I see that all the time but again I think that's where we can help parents to understand the impact of their behaviours.

我给你讲个有趣的故事：2008年美网半决赛，安迪对阵拉法，那天天气很差，他们一开始在阿什球场打，后来改到了路易斯·阿姆斯特朗球场；当时路易斯·阿姆斯特朗球场比阿什球场小得多，而拉法不喜欢小场地，这反而对安迪有利。

I'll tell you a funny story, Andy was playing Rafa, two thousand and eight US Open semi final, there was terrible weather and they were, I think they started on Ash and they ended up on Louis Armstrong and at that time Louis Armstrong was quite a tight court compared to Ash, Rafa doesn't like the tight court, played to Andy's favour.

我爸爸和我那天出去了，因为杰米那天有混双决赛，我们周三飞过去，安迪当时刚打完对德尔波特罗的比赛，赢了，太棒了！接着是半决赛对拉法，还有杰米的决赛，一切都很完美。我和我年迈的父亲一起去看安迪打拉法。

My dad and I had gone out because Jamie was in the mixed doubles final which was on a Thursday, we flew on the Wednesday, Andy was playing Del Potro, as we flew we arrived and he's beaten Del Potro, lovely, we've got a semi final against Rafa, we've got Jamie's final, lovely, me and my dad, quite elderly, And we go and we're sitting watching Andy playing Rafa.

我从不坐在爸爸旁边。

I don't sit beside my dad ever.

他总是批评不断。

He criticizes all the time.

我非常积极，因为我的爸爸总是非常消极。

I am super positive because my dad was always super negative.

所以我完全反其道而行之，因为我深知那种氛围让我多么难受。当时球场很紧凑，我们就在底线后方，安迪回到自己的场地时，他说：‘告诉爷爷，把手放在腿上！’

So I'm the opposite of that because I know what that made me So feel they're playing and the court's quite tight and we're right behind the baseline and Andy came to back his court and he went, tell grandpa just sit on his hands!

我知道我爸爸坐在几排之后——我从不坐在他旁边，他总是一副挑剔的样子，还喋喋不休，我根本不会靠近他。我能想象出我爸爸在做什么：他肯定在那儿嘀咕各种话。孩子们会捕捉到我们的一切行为，这会让他们焦虑。于是我转过身对爸爸说：‘把手放在腿上，别在我视线里瞎嚷嚷，听好了！’周围的人都在问：‘他刚才说什么？’

And I knew my dad was a few rows behind, I never sit beside him, he's awful tuts and comments and I won't be anywhere near him and I could picture what my dad was doing, he'd be like, oh, all this sort of stuff and our kids pick up on everything from us and it makes you anxious, so I turned around and I said to my dad, 'Stit on your hands, don't be out of my room, listened,' and everybody around us was going, what did he say?

安迪说了什么？

What did Andy say?

她说了什么？' 这类话。我当时特别注意周围有摄像机和其他设备，这正是我想表达的：他正处在人生最紧张、压力最大的比赛之一，而我爸爸却在那儿说‘我喜欢这样’，但他自己根本意识不到，孩子们会从我们身上捕捉到一切。

What did she say?' this sort of thing, and I was very conscious of cameras and all the rest of it, and it was, that is what I mean, it's like he is in a really tense pressured situation, biggest match of his life probably at that point, my dad is going, oh I like this, and my dad wouldn't realize, but kids pick up on everything from

是的，我

Yeah, I

记得2012年第一次温布尔登决赛，我紧张得一整天都躲开，因为我知道自己装不出来。

remember first Wimbledon final twenty twelve, I was so nervous that I removed myself all morning just because I knew I couldn't bluff it.

他会说：‘你干嘛这样表现？’

He'd go, what are you behaving like that for?

我当时太想表现好了，于是干脆躲开，我意识到这一点后，就独自离开了，把他们留给团队。

I'd be trying too hard to feel like, and I just removed myself, I recognised it and just left them with the team.

是的，我觉得孩子会注意到一切。

Yeah, I think kids pick up on everything.

那你会给那些有12、13岁孩子的父母什么建议呢？有时候我们能感觉到，他们正在向孩子传递负面情绪、不良举止，或者在最后发脾气。

And which advice would you give to like parents of young kids, like 12, 13, who we can feel sometimes they are behaving that way that they are feeding their kid with like negative emotion or like bad gesture or getting mad at the end.

比如，

Like how,

给孩子施加太大压力。

yeah, putting too much pressure on the kid.

他们应该怎么做，该如何表现。

What they should do, like how they should behave.

我认为在这些情况下，作为教练，你会意识到，即使你在球场上尽全力训练球员，陪他们旅行等等，父母的一句话、一个错误的行为、一个不当的举动，或者他们在家里对孩子说的话，都可能毁掉一切。因此，你需要这个三角关系——需要开放的沟通，让每个人都清楚自己的角色，大家目标一致，知道你们正在做什么，也知道你们希望他们如何与孩子相处，才能营造出最佳的环境。前几天我跟别人讲过这个故事：很多年前，我们在英国U14全国锦标赛上，我租了一辆面包车，带着一群苏格兰孩子，还有另外两位教练帮忙，大概有13个球员。当时正好是决赛，我们有一位女孩打进决赛，还有两位男孩相互对决。这位女孩这一周一直住在便宜的酒店，我们每天坐面包车往返，一起 bowling、一起吃饭，一切都很好，度过了非常愉快的一周。她有机会夺冠，热身时我们讨论了战术，一切都很顺利。她13岁，是家里的小女儿，有两个年纪大很多的哥哥，是家里的宝贝。我们在球员休息区，她再过半小时就要上场了，我离开去处理点别的事，回来时发现她妈妈和爸爸也在休息区，她正坐在妈妈腿上，妈妈在帮她整理装备之类的。

I think in those circumstances, I think as the coach, you realize that you can work as hard as you can with the player on the court and trying to form them, travel with them and so forth, and the parents can ruin everything with a wrong word or a wrong behavior, a wrong gesture or what they're saying to them at home, and that's why you need this triangle, you need open communication so everybody knows their role, everybody's on the same page, they know what you're working on and they know how you need them to be with their child to get the best possible environment around And the I was telling somebody this story the other day that we were at the national championships, British championships under fourteen's many, many years ago and I had loads of Scottish kids down there in my minibus and I had two other coaches helping me, think we had about 13 players, and it was the finals and we have one girl in the final and we have two boys playing each other in the final, and the girl had, we'd been staying in a hotel, a cheap hotel all week, we'd been going in the minibus, we'd been out bowling, food together, everything was great, we had a great week and the girl had a chance to win and she warms up, we go through the tactics, everything's fine, she's 13, she's the youngest in the family, she has two very much older brothers, she's the baby of the family and we're in the player cafe thing, she's going to go on in about half an hour and I went off to check on something else and I came back and in the cafe is her mom and dad and she's sitting on her mom's knee and her mom is flatting her gear or something.

父母没告诉我们，也没告诉孩子他们要来，说想给她个惊喜，结果她又变回了那个小孩子。

The parents didn't tell us or her that they were coming, oh we wanted to surprise her, and she becomes the baby again.

她之前一直独立、坚强，觉得自己能掌控一切，知道自己该做什么，可现在却坐在妈妈腿上，一切都乱了，灾难发生了。

She's been independent, strong, I'm in charge, I'm taking care of whatever, I know what I'm going to do, and she's on the knee and the whatever, and disaster.

比分是6-3、6-1，我试图平静地向父母解释，因为你不希望打击他们来看比赛的积极性，但他们本该提前告诉我们、提醒我们，因为这个突如其来的惊喜太具干扰性了，就在比赛前瞬间造成了巨大分心。

Loves six three six one and I was trying to explain to the parents that they said, oh she played so badly, she whatever, whatever, so I very calmly tried to explain to them because you don't want to discourage the parents from coming to watch, but they should have told us and warned us because that was too big a surprise and too big a distraction right before the match.

这是另一个例子，他们根本没意识到这一点。

So there's another example of they didn't realize that.

但也许这也像一个警示信号，对吧？因为如果父母能给孩子足够的成长空间，孩子不会因为结果而感到被评判，那也许这会是一个积极的惊喜。

But maybe also it's like a red flag, no, because maybe like if your parents are also giving you the space to grow and you don't feel judged based on your result, maybe it's a positive surprise.

也许你只是因为父母到场而感到些许焦虑。

Maybe you are responding with a bit of anxiety to your parents being there.

这已经是一种父母对孩子施加压力的情境了。

It's already like a situation where the parents are already putting pressure on the kid.

更关键的是，她现在进入状态了。

Was more that she's in the zone now.

她准备好了。

She's ready.

她热身过了。

She's warmed up.

她掌握了战术。

She has the tactics.

她随时可以上场。

She's ready to go.

然后突然间，我妈妈和爸爸来了，你又变回了家里的小宝贝，变得软弱、放松，注意力从原本该做的事上分散了，上场后表现就糟糕了。

And then suddenly it's like, my mom and dad are here, and you become baby of the family again and you go soft and and you're relaxed and you're distracted from what you were doing and you go on and you perform poorly.

别误会，我不介意她输了，但是当

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind that she lost, but when

她父母在说的时候，

her parents were saying,

她打得这么差，我心想这又不是我的错。

well, she played so badly with this, this, this and I'm thinking It's not my fault.

是的。

Yeah.

某种程度上，我觉得体育运动不知为何被搞得过于复杂了，应该更像传统学校那样。

In a way I feel like in sports for some reason it's a bit over complicated and it should be more like in traditional school.

孩子回家后，你照顾好他的身心健康，然后选择一所你真正认同其价值观的学校，接着就信任学校。

At the end, kid at home, you take care of the human being, but then you trust the school that they will be able or you choose the school that you really like based on values or whatever, and you trust them.

你不会干涉他们如何教孩子数学或其他任何科目。

And you don't interfere on how they teach that kid mathematics or whatever it is.

体育也应该是类似的：你应该为孩子选择一位你喜欢的教练，但之后就不该过多介入他们如何教导孩子打网球。

And it should be kind of the same, like you should choose a coach that you like for your kid, but then you should not like be at all involved on how they're teaching your kid to be a good tennis player.

我总是努力让家长了解我们正在训练什么、为什么这么做、预计需要多长时间，以及成绩可能会先下滑再上升。

I always think tried to keep the parents informed on what we were working on, why we were working on it, how long we thought it would take, that results might go backwards before they go forwards.

我一直试图帮助他们理解我们这么做的原因和孩子所处的发展阶段，这样他们就能明白，如果成绩突然变差，也不必焦虑，因为这是一段漫长的旅程，对吧？你十一二岁的时候表现不错，但并不意味着你二十岁的时候也会优秀，甚至你可能根本不会继续打球——也许几天后你就突然想换别的事做了，毕竟他们还是孩子，谁也说不准。但家长在这个过程中扮演着非常重要的角色，毕竟我们是环境的产物，从小就被塑造，所以我觉得帮助家长理解这一切至关重要。

I always tried to help them to understand why we were doing what we were doing and the stage of the development so they could understand it and they weren't going to get anxious if suddenly the results were a bit because it's such a long journey isn't it, know, you're eleven and twelve and you're pretty good, if you're pretty good at eleven and twelve doesn't mean you're going be pretty good at twenty and twenty, well you might not even be playing, you might wake up in a few days time and go, oh I want to do something else, you know, you just don't know because they're kids, but the parents play a very big role in the, I mean we're hardwired, we're products of our environments, we're hardwired from a young age, So I think helping the parents to understand everything that's going on.

而且，假如你离职了，退出了这个角色，如果父母完全不了解你之前对他们孩子所做的事，他们又怎么去帮助新教练呢？

And also if let's say you leave your job, you move out of the way, if the parents don't understand anything about what you've been doing with them, how do they help to inform a new coach?

他们需要理解。

They need to understand.

是的，当然。

Yeah, of course.

所以你需要报告和所有这些材料。

So you need reports and you need all that stuff.

我相信应该支持父母并让他们参与进来。

I believe in supporting the parents and involving them.

我不太喜欢他们在我在训练时坐在球场上，但我并不介意他们待在附近，不过你知道，这取决于孩子，但我认为大多数孩子也不希望父母坐在球场上，就像比赛一样，这是一种干扰。

I don't particularly like to have them sitting on the court when I'm working, I don't mind them being nearby at all, but you know again it depends on the kid, but I don't think most kids want their parents sitting on the court either and it's like the match, it's distraction.

就像，你看到那个击球了吗？

It's like, did you see that shot?

或者，哦，没打中。

Or, oh, missed that.

他们得找个合适的地方。

They have to find a good space.

他们可以出现在视野里，因为显然你不希望父母去问孩子：‘你今天做得怎么样？’

Like they can be in the picture because obviously you don't want the parents to ask a kid, oh, what did you do today?

比如，你输了吗？

Like, what did you lose?

不是那种类型的问题，但也不必每天都到场。

Like, not especially those kind of question, but like not there every single day.

作为孩子，我父亲总是会在场，虽然不是真的在电话里，但他总是在我训练时看着我，我记得很多次都会去看他，观察他的反应。

Like as a kid, my father was always like on, not on the call literally, but he was always there at my practices, like looking at me and yes, I remember many times like checking on him and like watching his reaction.

而且，当你在学习正手和反手时，有些练习过程其实并不好看。

And like, I mean, obviously as when you're learning like how to do a fore and back end, there is some practices that are not very pretty.

然后在车里，他会因为我不够好或者错过了那一球而生气或沮丧。

And then in the car after he was mad or frustrated because I didn't do good enough or because I missed that one.

这对我影响很大，因为我是独生子。

And it affected me a lot because I'm only child also.

所以很明显，我可能太想让他满意了，而且他确实因为我练习得不够好而生气。

So obviously like I probably wanted to please him too much, but, and yeah, like he was mad because I didn't practice good enough.

我记得很清楚，他站在玻璃后面走来走去，但大部分时间都在看着我，而且他经常跟我较劲。

And I remember like, I have clear memory of like him behind the glass, walking but most of the time watching me and he was like fighting me a lot.

是的，是的，然后作为孩子，你很难跟他说这真的很难。

Yeah, yeah and then it's how do you it's very difficult for you as the child to tell him that it's very hard.

这时候你就需要教练来帮助他理解，他的行为对你产生了负面影响，因为当你只有十岁、十一岁、十二岁的时候，甚至再大一点，都

That's where you need the coach to help him to understand that his behaviour is having a negative effect on you because when you're 10, 11, 12, well, even a little older than that, it's

你也没有足够的心理工具去理解到底发生了什么。

not You don't have the mental tools also to even understand like what's going on.

你知道自己很累，但你不会反思：我之所以觉得累，是因为我从爸爸那里得不到我需要的爱。

You know that you're feeling tired, but you're not reflecting, oh, I'm feeling tired because at the end I'm not getting the love I need from my dad.

你还太小，无法理解这些。

You're like too young to understand this.

我一直认为，无论是作为教练还是作为父母，都要明白这是一场漫长的旅程，而且我们从犯错、失败和失望中学到的东西更多，只要这些经历能以积极的方式被引导。

I always used to, I think as a coach and as a parent, understand that it's such a long haul and also that we learn a lot more from getting things wrong or losing and disappointments, we learn more from that so long as it's handled in a positive way.

所以我认为，无论是我教的任何孩子，尤其是我自己的孩子，只要他们尽了全力，结果如何我都不在意。

So I think certainly with my, well actually with any of the kids I coached, especially with my own kids, so long as they had tried their hardest, the outcome didn't bother me.

当他们准备好谈论比赛时，我会等他们主动提起，然后只问一些问题，比如：他当时是怎么让你感到困难的？

And when they were ready to talk about the match, I would wait until they brought it up and then I would just ask questions, know, like, so how did he make it difficult for you then?

你觉得他擅长什么？

What do you think he was good at?

你知道你在哪里成功地击中了他吗？

You know, where did you manage to hurt him?

你哪些方面表现得不错？

What went well for you?

类似这样的问题，我在检查他们对比赛的理解，因为当这些话出自他们口中时，你才能真正明白他们是如何解读的。

Those kind of things, so I am checking for the understanding of what happened because when it comes from them you realize what they have read into it.

他们不是在告诉你你希望听到的话，而是在诚实地表达：实际上，他总是把球打得很高的反手位，我根本应付不了。

They're not telling you something that you want to hear, they're being honest about well actually he kept hitting it really high to my backhand and I couldn't deal with it.

那你觉得你本可以怎么做？有没有什么你可以尝试的方法？

Okay, what you think you could have done, was there anything you could have tried?

然后你希望他们自己说，我可以早点上前接球，我可以站得更靠后一点，我可以回一个高远球，不管是什么。

And then you want them to say, I could have come forward and taken it earlier, I could have got further behind the ball, I could have sent the moon ball back, whatever it is.

因为一旦他们开始说，哦，对，好吧，我们下次打球时就改进这一点。

Cause once they start going, oh yeah, okay, well we'll work on that the next time we play.

所以如果你再和他们打，我们会非常放松地提供解决方案和支持。

So if you play them again, we'll be very relaxed, giving solutions and giving support.

你不是一个人在战斗。

You're not on your own.

你并不是永远输了。

You've not lost forever.

我认为这对孩子们来说很重要，那就是犯错没关系。

And I think that's a big thing for kids is the it's okay to make mistakes.

你

You

你知道，是的，我在这里帮你从中学到东西，我们一起去练习改进。

know, yeah, I'm here to help you to learn from it, you know, and we, and we go out and work on it.

安迪总是特别擅长在输掉本不该输的比赛，或者只是普通失利后变得更好。他年轻时输的比赛并不多，但每次输了我都从不担心，因为这反而让他更加坚定。

Andy was always, always really good at getting better after he'd lost something that he felt he shouldn't lose or just losing in general, and he didn't lose a lot as a young junior, he was, but when he did it never worried me because it made him more determined.

每个人都是这样，但他尤其如此。

Everybody's like that, but he was very much like that.

这没关系，我认为如果你的孩子不是这种性格，你作为父母也不需要强迫他变成他不是的那种人。

Which is okay, I think if you're not like that, your dad doesn't need to push you to be the way you're not.

当然，有韧性、不轻易放弃是好事，但你也得接受，也许你的孩子天性不同，并不适合成为职业网球选手，这也没关系。

Of course it's good to be resilient and not give up at the first, but also you have to accept that maybe your kid is different and is not made to be a tennis pro and probably that's fine.

他可以在生活中找到其他方向，这完全没问题。

He can find something else in life and that's okay.

是的，真正能打到职业水平的孩子非常少，极少极少。

Yeah, mean very few kids get good enough to make a career out of it, very few.

这就是现实。

And that's the reality.

你知道，很多家长认为，因为他们的孩子在十岁或十一岁时表现不错，而且得到了协会或什么机构的认可，就觉得未来一定会一路顺遂。

You know there are a lot of parents who think because their child is good at 10 or 11 and they're on track from their governing body or their whatever, whatever, that it's just going to be like that.

不，不是这样的，事情就会是这样。

Well no it's not, It's going be like this.

对。

Yeah.

这正是问题的终点。

That's at the end of the problem.

你有这么多例子，也许我们可以剪辑一下，比如那些从11岁起就只打网球、最终成功的人。

You have all these, maybe we can edit this, but like tough stories of you who was like, since 11, like it's only about tennis and you made it.

所以即使中间有过低谷，到了30岁的时候，你依然处于一个相当不错的位置。

So even if there's been some downs, you know, like at the end you're in a pretty good position at 30.

但当你开始思考，所有那些同样在11岁就走上这条路的孩子——他们去上家庭教育，父亲深度参与，

But when you start thinking, you know, of all the kids who went through the same, which is like 11, you go to homeschooling, your dad is like super involved.

生活只围绕网球，却最终没有成功的人，

It's only about tennis and they never made it.

我真的很想见见他们，因为他们现在可能状态并不好，但没人谈论他们

I really would love to meet them because they're probably not in a very good space right now, but nobody If talks about

从很小的时候，网球就变成了唯一的事情，它成了你的身份。

it becomes just about the tennis from a young age, that becomes your identity.

你就是卡罗琳，那个网球选手，或者安迪，那个网球选手。

You are Caroline the tennis player or Andy the tennis player.

如果这对你奏效了，最终安迪成功了，但我有很多球员并没有成功，他们在整个学生时代、青少年时期，甚至在网球圈的朋友群体中都备受困扰——因为大家觉得你是网球天才，将来一定会成为职业选手，可突然你没成功了，你得向他们解释，虽然不是用这些话，但你实际上在说：我失败了。如果这种心态是‘我失败了’，而你的身份认同是‘我是个网球选手’，那现在我不是网球选手了，我到底是谁？

And if that worked out for you, in the end it worked out for Andy in the end, I have many players that it hasn't worked out for, and they struggle with that all their school years, all their junior years, all their friendship groups out with tennis think you're going to be a tennis player because you're really good, and then suddenly you don't make it and you're having to explain to them, not in these words, but you're actually telling them I failed, So didn't make if that is the mindset of I failed at it, my identity was I'm a tennis player, not a tennis player, what am I?

你的生活中需要其他东西。

You need other things in your life.

你需要教育、社交互动，需要网球之外的其他兴趣，需要一个远离网球的友谊圈。

You need education, social interaction, you need other interests, you need a friendship group away from tennis.

但如果这些不是来自父母，就根本不可能获得。

But if this doesn't come from your parents, it's impossible to obtain it.

没错。

Exactly.

我记得我们刚开始约会的时候，你当时世界排名第四，正经历网球生涯的低谷，她输球时会问我，是否还爱她。

Me, I remember when we started dating, you were four in the world and you were entering kind of a dark moment with tennis, and she was asking me when she was losing if I was still loving her.

从一开始我就想，不管你世界排名是多少，我不在乎，我在乎的是你是不是一个好人，是不是善待我。

And I was like, from the outset, I was like, But how can you I don't care if you're a four, two hundred, you know, like, I care if you're a good human, if you treat me well.

就这么简单。

That's it.

当然，如果你赢了，那很好，因为很有趣。

Then, of course, it's nice if you win because it's fun.

但你能明显看出她很担忧。

But you could really see that she was worried.

她把自己的身份或作为人的价值完全与网球运动员的身份绑在了一起，因此你根本不可能要求她作为一个球员感到快乐。

And it's like, okay, she's really attaching her identity or her value as a human, as a tennis player, and it's impossible to ask her to be happy as a player.

我觉得你刚才说的这一点很有意思，因为你之前提到，你一直试图取悦你父亲，如果你训练不认真、错过比赛，他就会对你发脾气，这种观念从小就被深深植入你心里，至今仍然存在，因为美国的环境。

I think that's interesting what you said there because of what you said earlier, you know that you were always trying to please your dad, your dad would be angry with you if you didn't practice well or missed a match or something like that because that has been embedded into you from a young age and it's still there because of The US that

是的，NGUS项目和其他反应。

you Yeah, NGUS project and other reaction.

对于

For

我看待自己的方式是，如果我没有赢，或者没有站在顶尖位置，没有赢得越来越大的奖杯，我就觉得自己不够好。

me, my way to see myself was like, if I was not winning or if I was not at the very top or like getting bigger and bigger trophy, I was not good enough.

所以我觉得自己作为一个人都不够好。

So I was not good enough as a person.

所以如果我不喜欢自己，当我输球时，我就理所当然地认为，就像我爸爸那样，所有人都一样，

So if I kind of didn't like myself, if I was losing, I was taking it for granted that as my dad didn't kind of, every people was the same,

直到

until

有人告诉你不是这样的。

someone like tell you otherwise.

但最终，这会成为一种障碍。

But also at the end, it's going be like an obstacle.

如果太多东西与你的网球成功挂钩，就会带来过大的压力，而不是压力。

Like if there's too much involved in your tennis success, it's going to be like too much pressure, not too much stress.

我认为，你要想享受这项运动，并愿意快乐地投入所需的时间会很难，因为这是一项艰苦的运动。

I think it's going to be hard for you to enjoy it and be willing to happily put the hours it takes because it's a tough sport.

如果一切都围绕着它，那就太多了。

And if everything is around it, it's just too much.

你最终会崩溃的。

You're going to end up crashing.

我认为这就是为什么我特别喜欢看卡洛斯·科雷亚去伊比萨，你知道的，我和朋友们一起庆祝，等等。

I think that's why I have really enjoyed watching Carlos Correa, you know, go to Ibiza because I celebrate with my friends, whatever.

我去打高尔夫。

I go and play golf.

我特别喜欢这样，因为生活不止网球，现在的赛程排得这么满，几乎没有空间去享受，我知道安迪在退役后说过，他希望自己能有更多时间去享受成功的时刻。

I love that because there is more to life than just tennis and the calendar is so stacked now and there's so little space to enjoy and I know that one of the things that Andy said after his career was he wished he'd had more time to enjoy the successes.

你知道，你周日赢了比赛，收拾好包，当晚就得出发。

You know, you win on a Sunday, you pack your bag, you ship out that night.

你甚至没有时间出去吃顿饭庆祝。

You don't even have time to go out for dinner to celebrate.

我觉得我们也需要一些有趣的东西，你说呢？

You know, I think we need the fun stuff as well, don't you?

是的，我觉得我也是，我从不庆祝什么。

Yeah, I think it's like, me neither.

我几乎从不庆祝。

I never celebrated like barely anything.

我只是觉得这是理所当然的，即使那根本不是件容易的事。

I just kind of, you took it for granted, even if it's not like an easy way at all.

而且你不会，我的意思是，安迪赢的比我多得多，但我也没赢多少，但他总是说，好吧，下一个，我还能怎么做得更好？

And you don't, I mean, Andy won way more than me, but I didn't win that much, but he was like, yeah, next, like what can I do better?

我需要一个更大的头衔。

I need a bigger title.

最后，确实，庆祝是很重要的。

And at the end, it's true that celebrating.

就像你说的，看到卡洛斯以自己的方式享受生活，会给你动力再去尝试。

And like you say, seeing Carlos enjoy on his term, give you some motivation to do it again.

我的意思是，有时候你在场上真的很难受。

Like, I mean, sometimes you are suffering out there.

训练并不总是容易的，你会出汗、感到疲惫。

It's not always easy to train, like be sweaty, tired.

你也会想知道为什么要做这件事，这种感觉能带给你什么，即使你并不完全用它来定义自己，但它确实能给你一些东西。

You want also to know like why you do it and that feeling, like what it gives you, even if you don't only identify yourself with that, but like give you something.

到目前为止，我们已经做了大约50期节目，嘉宾都是大满贯冠军、多次世界第一。

We've done like, well already maybe 50 episodes so far, like grand slam champions, multiple number ones.

最后，我们总是会问一个问题：你会给年轻的自己什么建议？

At the end, we always ask the question, what advice would you give to your younger self?

90%的人都说，要多享受一点。

90% said to enjoy more.

如果当时我能更开心一点，对自己更宽容一点，我依然能取得现在所有的成就。

Like, I would have been able to achieve everything I did having a bit more of fun, being a bit more, like, easier on myself.

你知道的吧？

You know?

没有人会后悔说，我应该更努力一点，或者我希望我赢过某场比赛。

Like, nobody's regretting I should have worked harder or I wish I would have won this or that.

每个人都说，我希望我当时能更享受一些。

Everyone is like, I wish I would have enjoyed more.

因为到最后，如果你一路都过得痛苦，那意义何在呢？

Because at the end, what's the point if you're miserable all the way?

是的。

Yeah.

而且你也不总是痛苦的。

And it's not always that you're miserable.

只是你没有过正常的生活，这不是一种普通的生活。对我来说，很多家长会来找我寻求建议，还有一些年纪较大但已经相当出色的青少年。

It's just that you're not having a normal life, it's not a normal One of the things for me I think is a lot of parents come to me for advice and also older teenagers that they're pretty good for their age.

接下来我该做什么？

What would I do next?

我去英国上大学吗？

Do I go to university in The UK?

我去美国的大学吗？

Do I go to American University?