格雷格·布罗克曼（第二部分）

他拥有优化领域的博士学位，但同时也非常擅长构建系统，并且已经多次实践过。

He has a PhD in optimization, but he also really knows how to build systems and has done it many times.

因此，这是一种独特的技能组合。

And so that is a unique skill set.

这非常有价值。

It's very valuable.

所以我发现，工程师要想在这个领域创造价值，门槛相当高，因为这些研究人员都懂编程。

And so the thing that I found was that for engineers to add value in this field, you have a pretty high bar because these researchers, they all know how to code.

他们能自己搭建东西。

They can build their own things.

所以你必须比他们自己做得更好。

So you have to do better than they would on their own.

这与你为医生构建系统的情况形成对比，对吧？

And that's a contrast if you're just building for doctors, say, right?

大多数医生可能并不懂编程。

Most doctors probably don't know how to code.

所以，为他们构建比他们自己能做的更好的东西，这个门槛就降低了。

So the bar to do better at building something for them than they could build on their own is relaxed.

因此，我们关注的很多内容是如何确保真正赋能并推动研究人员前进。

And so that a lot of what we focused on is how do you make sure you're empowering and moving forward the researchers?

那天在房间里的人，彼此熟悉程度如何？

How well did the handful of people in the room that day know each other?

有一部分人曾经一起完成过博士课程。

So there was a subset of people who had, they'd all gone through PhD programs together.

他们中有些人曾一起实习过。

Some of them had interned together.

因此，有一群人彼此认识，还有一群人则是刚认识。

So there was a set of people who knew each other and there was a set of people who were newer to each other.

但到那时，我们其实已经经历了一些奠基性的活动。

But at this point, we'd actually already gone through some formative events.

所以从2015年下半年开始，我一直负责招聘，寻找这个领域中最优秀的人才。

So we had really throughout the back half of 2015, I'd been doing all the recruiting to find just who are the best people in the field.

第一次会议是OpenAI的会议，还是一次演变成OpenAI的聚会？

Was the first meeting the meeting of OpenAI or was it a get together that turned into OpenAI?

我认为真正促成这件事的第一次聚会是2015年7月的一次晚餐。

I'd say that the very first moment that was really the get together that set things in motion was a dinner in July 2015.

那次晚餐有萨姆、伊利亚、埃隆，还有其他几位人士参加。

And that that was with Sam, that was with Ilya, that was with Elon, that was with a handful of others.

当时的问题是，现在开始一个真正能实现通用人工智能的实验室，是不是太晚了？

And the question there is, is it too late to start a lab that can actually really get to AGI, right?

为什么说太晚了？

Why would it be too late?

当时感觉DeepMind已经占尽优势了，对吧？

Well, it felt like DeepMind kind of had it, right?

DeepMind拥有谷歌提供的所有人才和计算资源，感觉通用人工智能似乎已经近在咫尺。

That DeepMind had all the talent that they had as part of Google, all the compute, that it felt like maybe AGI was very close.

你真的能聚集一群顶尖人才，全力去实现这个目标吗？

And can you actually get together a group of great people and really go for this?

你会说你是出于与谷歌的竞争才启动这个项目的吗？

Did you start it in competition with Google, would you say?

我不觉得这是竞争，但我认为这是一种互补，对吧？

I don't think of it as competition, but I do think of it as complementary, right?

我认为关于人工智能应该如何发展的观点，这是一个非常根本的立场：我认为每个人都有权参与人工智能的发展。

That I think that my view on how AI should go, and this is very foundational, is that I think that AI is something that everyone deserves to participate in.

对我来说，我们即将构建出极其强大的系统，而这些系统如何帮助全人类共同进步，是可能发生的事情中最重要的事情。

And to me, it felt like we're going to build these incredibly powerful systems and that how they play out for humanity to uplift everyone is something that is the single most important thing that can happen.

参与其中并帮助引导这一方向，确保它真正对每个人都有益，这才是我想做的事情。

And contributing to that and helping steer that in a direction that makes sure it actually is beneficial to everyone, like that's the thing that I want to do.

所以对我来说，这并不是关于谁的基准测试表现更好来回较劲。

And so to me, it felt like it's not about the back and forth on who has the best benchmark.

真正重要的是，我们如何构建系统，以及如何让整个社会与这些系统融合，对吧？

It's really on how do we build systems and overall society that integrates with those systems, right?

这些事物将共同演化。

These things are going to co evolve together.

这是一个比我们今天所处的世界更好的世界。

That is a much better world than the one that we have today.

但这不是任何一个群体能够单独完成的。

And that isn't something that any one group can do on their own.

你当时知道这会是一场多大的革命吗？

How big of a revolution did you know it was then?

你当时能预见我们现在所处的境地吗？

Could you see where we are now then or no?

那时我觉得，如果这件事要成功，就必须是这样的感觉。

Then it felt like if it was gonna work at all, it'd kinda have to feel like this.

我认为我们还没有完成。

And I think we're not done.

描述一下房间里每个人的性格、优势和劣势。

Describe the personalities and strength and weaknesses of every person in the room.

我想说，萨姆是一位富有远见的人。

Well, I'd say that Sam, I think, is a visionary.

我认为萨姆是一个鼓励人们畅想宏大愿景的人。

And I think that Sam is someone who gives permission to dream big ideas.

而且我认为他非常关心他人。

And I think he also cares a lot.

我认为他非常关心人们。

I think he cares a lot about people.

我认为他总是对如何找到解决任何问题的方法持非常乐观的态度。

And I think that he is someone who is, like, always very optimistic about how we can find a way to configure any solution to a problem.

因此，我认为他是一个让你觉得‘这根本不可能成功’的人。

And so I think that he is someone where you feel like, hey, this is never gonna work.

但他总会找到解决方案。

He will find a solution.

是的。

Yeah.

但他始终是一个——

But he is always someone-

他让你相信这个问题是可以解决的。

He opens your mind that it can be solved.

没错。

That's right.

而且也许这还不是最好的解决方案。

And that maybe it's not the best solution yet.

那是

That's

对。

right.

但一旦你知道它能被解决，你就可以去寻找更好的方案。

But once you know it can be solved, then you can work on a better one.

没错。

That's right.

而且这并不是脱离现实的，对吧？

And it's not detached from reality, right?

他就像一个与之紧密相关的角色，我认为他是一位极其出色的促进者，帮助研究人员并将这项技术整体引导到世界中。

It's like kind of connected to, like, I think he's been, he's like an excellent sort of facilitator for researchers and for this overall sort of shepherding of this technology into the world.

伊利亚，我认为他是一位富有远见的人。

Ilya, again, I think is a visionary.

我记得在最初那几天，他说他有一个想法，关于如何解决所谓的无监督学习问题，如何通过观察世界来实现。

I think he is someone who I remember in that very first couple of days, he said, I have this idea I've been thinking about for how we can solve what was called unsupervised learning, how we can observe the world.

那是什么？

What is that?

所以如果

So if

你可以想想人类婴儿是如何仅仅通过观察世界来学习的，对吧？没有人告诉他们什么是对的。

you think about how a human baby learns just by observing the world, right, there's no one saying this is the right thing.

没有人提供输入。

No one's doing input.

没错。

Exactly.

它就这样发生了。

It just happens.

它就这样发生了。

It just happens.

对我来说，这一直是个疯狂的概念：机器如何能在没有人告诉它做得好坏的情况下学会呢？

This was alwaysto me, this always felt like a crazy concept of how can the machine ever learn without someone telling it whether it's doing a good job or not.

是的。

Yeah.

但我们找到了方法。

But we figured it out.

我记得他有很多想法，关于如何真正将其融入机器中。

I remember that he had a lot of ideas on how to really push it into machine.

即使在那个房间里，也会有人觉得这太超前了吗？

Even in that room, would there be people who think that's too far?

在那个房间里，我们立刻开始写下各种想法，那种能量是实实在在的。

So in that room, we immediately started trying to write down ideas and that the energy was just palpable.

在大家齐聚这个房间之前，其中一个关键步骤是2015年11月的那次外部会议。

One of the steps along the way to everyone coming to that room was this off-site in November 2015.

于是我梳理了整个领域以及所有顶尖人才，并不断询问别人：你认识哪些特别出色的人？

So I mapped out the whole field or all the best people and kind of been asking people for who do you know who's great?

然后他们就会把我介绍给那些人。

And then they would introduce me to people.

所以我一直留意着，不断有人向我推荐一个叫沃伊切赫的人。

And so I just kind of kept track of I kept getting introduced to this guy called Wojciech.

我当时就想，好吧，沃伊切赫应该是我必须争取的人。

I was like, all right, Wojciech's probably someone I should go after.

我们已经缩小了目标人选范围，但他们都在问：还有谁会加入？

And we had narrowed down to a set of people, but they were all kind of like, okay, well, who else is joining?

他们说：我很感兴趣，但还有谁在？

Like, I'm interested, but who else is in?

那你该怎么促成这件事呢？

And you're like, how do I collapse this?

我问了萨姆该怎么办。

And I asked Sam what to do.

他建议把大家召集到一次场外会议。

And he suggested to bring everyone to an off-site.

而这时，我真的很感谢约翰·舒尔曼，因为他表示他会参加。

And at this point, actually, remember it was very grateful to John Schulman who had said that he would be in.

所以至少我不是唯一一个已经承诺的人。

So I was at least not the only one who had committed.

我想可能还有一两个人也在，但当时确实还是一群尚未凝聚成团队的人。

And I think maybe there was one or two others who were kind of there, but it really was a group of people who had not yet coalesced into a team.

是的。

Yeah.

我们把大家都召集了出来。

And we brought everyone out.

我们当时在我家公寓里。

We were in my apartment.

我们上了巴士。

We got into the bus.

我们开车去了纳帕。

We drive up to Napa.

就是那一天，所有人都默契十足，对吧？

And it was just this day where everyone clicked, right?

那种能量简直太顺畅了，对吧？

That the energy was just so smooth, right?

那就是人类形态下的心流状态。

It's that flow state in human form.

我记得我们在白板上写下了这个计划，我有一张这张白板的照片，上面是我们的计划。

And I remember that we wrote up on this flip chart, and I have a picture of this flip chart, the plan.

这是一个三步计划。

There's a three step plan.

第一步是解决强化学习，第二步是解决无监督学习，第三步是逐步学习更复杂的东西。

Step one was solve RL, Reinforcement Learning two: Solve UL three: Gradually learn more complicated things.

这实际上就是我们过去十年一直在做的事情。

And this actually is what we've been doing for a decade.

这简直太疯狂了，对吧？

It's actually crazy, right?

我们真的确立了这个愿景。

Like we really set out the vision.

所以这与最初的愿景非常贴近。

So It's very tight to the original vision.

这只是最初愿景的延伸和发展。

It's just the growth of the original vision.

确实如此。

It is.

真的就是这样。

It really is.

当我回顾我们所做的一切时，发现所有工作都是为了实现同一个目标，采用了几乎相同的技术路径和底层理念。

When I look at everything we have done, it has been in service of the same goal with really the same almost technical approach and the same ethos underlying it.

房间里还有其他人具有特别的专业知识、观点，或者与其他人不同，值得描述一下吗？

Any of the other people in the room who had particular either expertise or views or that were different than the others that are worth describing?

是的。

Yeah.

我会说 Wojciech，我至今仍与他密切合作，他也是一个独特的人物。

I'd say Wojciech, and I still work very closely with him, is also a unique character.

他在创意生成方面非常出色，能为任何问题提出极具创造力的想法。

He is extremely good at idea generation, and he will come up with very creative ideas to any problem.

而且他完全不执着于自己的想法。

And then he is also someone who is not at all attached to his own ideas.

对。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

因为如果你容易生气或敏感，就很难保持如此开放的创造力。

Because if you're someone who's going to take offense, then it's really hard to be that generative.

当然，你希望它尽可能好，但不可能所有想法都是对的。

Well, you want it to be as good as it can be, That's they can't all be your right.

我通常在和他们合作时，会认真思考：我们该考虑的边界在哪里？

What I usually do when working with them is really think about, okay, well, what are the bounds on what we should think about, right?

这些是我们不希望涉足的领域，或者这是我们最终需要达成的目标。

Here are the places that we don't want to go or here's kind of the place that we need to end up.

然后，创意生成的过程就会形成一个强大的良性循环。

And then the idea generation process just ends up with this great flywheel.

你是怎么加入Stripe的？

How did you end up at Stripe?

当我还在麻省理工学院时，我一直在创业。

So while I was at MIT, I was building more.

我做了更多的初创公司。

And I did more startups.

从每一次经历中，我都学到了另一件不该做的事。

And from each one, I felt like I learned another thing not to do.

最终，我感觉自己已经足够了解如何成功创办一家初创公司，但我缺少一个关键要素——一个好点子。

And eventually, I kind of felt like I knew enough that I could be successful at doing a startup, but I was missing a key component, which is having an idea.

我一直在观察我的朋友们，他们来自计算机俱乐部，自己创办了初创公司，他们读了硕士，在那里想出了一个很棒的点子。

And I was pattern matching off of my friends who had been in the Computer Club, started their own startup, they'd gone to a master's program, come up with a cool idea there.

我当时想，显然这就是你该做的事。

I was like, well, clearly that's what you need to do.

你需要去读研究生。

You need to go to grad school.

你看到了这条路径。

You saw the path.

是的。

Yes.

但我看到的这条路径实际上太过常规了，对吧？

But the path that I saw was actually too much of the beaten path, right?

常规路径就是：在你的博士项目中发明一些东西，然后把这项技术转化为一家初创公司。

The beaten path is in your PhD program, you invent something there and you turn that technology into a startup.

我记得当时就觉得，好吧，我才21岁。

And I remember just feeling like, okay, I'm 21.

我太年轻了，做不了世界上真正重要的事。

I'm just too young to do real things in the world.

这条路是唯一可能的选择。

This path is the only thing that's possible.

但至少，我可以开始认识那些在做创业的人，因为我上过一门创业课，但根本没用。

But at the very least, I can start meeting people doing startups because I had taken a startup class and it was just not useful.

我想，好吧，这根本无法让我达到我想去的地方。

I was like, all right, like, this is not going to get me to where I want to go.

于是我决定去认识那些在做创业的人。

And so I decided I'd meet these people doing startups.

就在第二天，我收到了一封来自帕洛阿尔托一家支付创业公司人员的邮件。

And literally the next day, I got an email from some people working on a payment startup in Palo Alto.

我当时就想，好吧，我的新目标就是去认识这些人，慢慢学会识别模式。

And I was like, well, my new thing is to meet these people and learn to pattern match over time.

我记得当我见到帕特里克时，我们一见如故。

And I remember when I met Patrick, we just clicked.

他的背景是什么？

What was his background?

嗯，他之前在麻省理工学院。

Well, so he had been at MIT.

所以他和他哥哥——是

And so he and his brother- Did

你是在麻省理工认识他的吗？不是，

you know him from MIT at No,

我没有。

I did not.

是的，但我们有共同的朋友，因为他上过麻省理工，约翰上过哈佛。

Yeah, but we had mutual friends because he had gone to MIT, John had gone to Harvard.

所以是那个圈子里的人在互相打听。

So it was that community that they were asking around.

当然，我的名字在两个圈子里都被提及了。

And my name, of course, came up in both circles.

我记得我飞过去的时候，正在下雨，天气特别糟糕。

And I remember I flew out, and it was raining and kind of miserable.

我记得开门后，我们一刚开始聊天，就立刻产生了默契。

And I remember opening the door and just like, when we first started talking, it was just an instant connection.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得我们的背景在很多方面其实很不一样。

I think we just, like, had this, you know, different backgrounds in many ways.

对吧？

Right?

但我们也拥有非常相似的技术视角。

But also, we had a very similar technical perspective.

就连一些特别极客的事情，比如我们用的同款Kinesis分体键盘，都一模一样。

And like even for very nerdy things, I mean, had the same like split keyboard that we use, this Kinesis keyboard.

我们俩都用Dvorak布局。

We both were Dvorak.

我们实际使用的布局是不同的。

The actual layout that we used was different.

我们讨论了如何为他们系统的防火墙做设计，还聊到了内核里的各种东西。

And we were talking about how to like build the firewalls for the systems that they had and you're talking about, you know, different things in the kernel.

所以我们就像是在技术上产生了共鸣。

And so it was just like we had this, like, technical connection.

我觉得我特别欣赏帕特里克和约翰的一点是，他们和我同龄，却已经在外头干出名堂了，对吧？

And I think that what I also really appreciated about Patrick and John is that they were my age and they were already out there doing things, right?

他们已经创办了初创公司。

That they were already doing a startup.

我当时觉得，这不可能吧。

And I was like, I don't think that's possible.

我们俩之中，肯定有一个人搞错了。

One of the two of us is wrong.

我真的很想知道他是谁。

I really want to know who it is.

是的。

Yeah.

然后发生了什么？

And then what happened?

所以

So

周末过得很棒。

weekend was great.

他们说你应该加入。

They said you should join.

我说，让我想想。

I said, let me go think about it.

我回到了学校。

I went back to school.

约翰周四恰好在城里。

John happened to be in town on Thursday.

所以我就想，你知道的，我大概该做决定了。

And so I was like, you know, I I probably should make my decision.

然后我想，你知道吗？

And I was like, you know what?

我想做这件事。

I want to do this.

因为再说一遍，回到那个关于‘如果这能成功’的梦境算法。

Because again, back to that algorithm of dream of the what if this works.

我觉得我对支付一无所知。

I'm like, I don't know anything about payments.

这不是我从小热衷的问题。

Like, this is not the problem that I've grown up passionate about.

但这些人但

But these people But

你能解决一个真正的问题。

you get to solve a real problem.

是的，解决一个

Yeah, solve a

真正的问题。

real problem.

没错。

Exactly.

这些是我觉得可以向他们学习或与之合作的人。

And these are the people that I feel like I can learn from or that I can work with.

我记得约翰问过我：‘你愿意做吗？’

And I remember John was like, will you do it?

我当时说：‘好吧。’

I was like, alright.

行吧。

Fine.

我会做的。

I'll do it.

我只记得当时心想，好吧。

And I I just remember feeling like, okay.

是的。

Yeah.

就像他们需要我一样。

Like, that They want me.

有这么一个人。

There's someone exactly.

他们需要我。

They want me.

这种感觉真好。

That's a good feeling.

那是一种非常好的感觉。

It was a really good feeling.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我决定在星期四这么做。

And so I decided that on Thursday.

星期五，我花了一整天时间告诉老师们我不去了。

Friday, I spent telling my teachers that I was out.

那进展得怎么样？

How did that go?

有点困难。

It was a little tough.

对你来说有情感上的冲击吗？

Was it emotional for you?

这 definitely 感觉像某种事情的终结。

It was definitely it felt like the end of something.

而且

And

你知道吗，当我告诉哈佛我要离开时，他们说

you know, Harvard, when I told them I was leaving, they said

你会回来的

You're coming

回来的。

back.

你会回来的。

You're coming back.

没错。

Exactly.

我想这大概是为了他们的数据统计之类的吧。

And I think it's probably for their numbers and, you know, that kind of thing.

但 definitely 感觉到，好吧，我明白这背后的逻辑了。

But it definitely felt like, okay, I see how this goes.

麻省理工则稍微不一样，他们跟相关的人谈了，说你每六个月得报到一次，因为如果太久没联系，可能就得重新申请，我们也不太确定。

MIT was a little bit more like, Okay, like talking to the relevant person that they said that, you know, you have to check-in every six months or so because if too long goes by, then, you know, maybe you'll have to reapply and we're not really sure.

而且那种氛围完全不同。

And it just was a very different vibe.

我记得和教授们交谈过，他们都很支持我。

And I remember talking to the professors, the professors were supportive.

我想这是他们经常看到的情况，但他们也确实有点难过，因为我学期中就离开了。

And I think this is a thing that they see and but they were also, you know, I think a little sad to see me go like mid semester.

是的，我非常感激他们提供的指导。

Yeah, I really appreciated the mentorship they provided.

当时我正在上操作系统课程，这是MIT一门著名的课程，由一群非常优秀的教授授课。

Like, was in the middle of the operating systems course, which is this famous course at MIT taught by these, like, extremely good professors.

这门课实在太棒了，我非常遗憾没能继续完成更多的项目。

And it was just such a cool class, and I was very sad to not get to implement further projects.

所以这确实意味着放弃了一些宝贵的经历。

And so it was definitely kind of giving up on some sort of exposure to an experience.

而且和这些人告别也很艰难，对吧？

And it was also hard to say goodbye to the people, right?

那里有这么多我原本去学习和合作的人。

There were all these people that I'd gone there to learn from and work with.

有趣的是，他们中的许多人后来也来到了硅谷，我在Stripe有机会和他们共事，也以其他方式相处了很长时间。

And the funny thing is many of them ended up coming out to the valley, got to work with them at Stripe, got to spend a bunch of time with them in other ways.

所以，这实际上并没有像我当时以为的那样，是一次真正的告别。

So it was much less of a goodbye than I thought it was at the time.

是的。

Yeah.

在你长大的地方成长，并且如此迅速地搬迁，你觉得自己不一样吗？

Growing up where you grew up and moving as quickly as you did, did you feel different?

我确实觉得自己不一样。

I definitely felt different.

对。

Yes.

你感到孤独吗？

Was it lonely?

你觉得自己是个局外人吗？

Did you feel like an outsider?

确实感觉很不一样。

Like, definitely felt different.

我就是完全融入不进去。

I definitely didn't fit in.

对吧？

Right?

还有很多其他孩子喜欢的东西，我完全不懂。

And there was like a lot of things that other kids were into that I just didn't understand.

我记得上幼儿园时坐校车，其他孩子都在跟着收音机唱歌。

Like, I remember being on the school bus in kindergarten and other kids were like singing along to the radio.

但我一句歌词都不会。

And I didn't know any of the words.

我就觉得，根本不知道该怎么跨越这个鸿沟。

And I just felt like I don't even know how to bridge this gap.

所以我有过很多这样的时刻，总觉得我身上有什么地方就是不太一样。

And so I had a number of moments like that where I just felt like there was just something about me that, like, doesn't quite match.

有些是因为活动，比如很多孩子都去打猎，而我家根本从不这么做。

Some of it was about activities like a lot of the kids would hunt, and that was not something that my family did at all.

所以就是有一种非常不同的感觉。

And so there was just something very different.

我曾经短暂地打过冰球。

I did play hockey for a little bit.

我打得不太好，但我当守门员。

I was not very good, but I was goalie.

于是我开始尝试做一些能让我更融入的活动。

So I started to try to, you know, do some activities that would match.

但我记得，我特别在意的一件事是为自己塑造一个身份，因为如果你与众不同，又没有明确的身份，就会很孤独。

But I remember I was one thing I really cared about was carving an identity for myself Because if you're different and you don't really feel like you have an identity, then it's lonely.

但如果你与众不同，同时拥有一个定义你的身份，那你就是在走自己的路。

But if you're different and you have an identity, something that defined you, you're charting your own path.

对我来说，就是当一个聪明的孩子。

And for me, it was being the smart kid.

我记得在小学时，每周都有一次拼写测验。

Like I remember in elementary school that we had a weekly spelling quiz.

流程是这样的：周一，老师会发给你本周的10个或20个单词。

And the way it would work is on Monday, the teacher would give you the 10 or 20 words for the week.

到了周末，老师就会考这些单词。

And then at the end of the week, you'd be tested on them.

周一的时候，老师念单词，你得把它们写下来，这算是一次预考。

And you'd kind of have this pretest on Monday where you'd have to write them down as the teacher says them.

如果你写错了，就得去问其他写对的同学该怎么拼。

And if you got it wrong, you'd have to go ask one of the other kids who got it right how to spell it.

通常我都能全对。

And normally I'd get them all right.

但我记得有一周，我有一个单词拼错了。

But I remember one week I got one of the words wrong.

我记得班上另一个聪明的孩子，他答对了。

I remember another one of the smart kids in the class, he got it right.

我感到非常羞愧，不得不去问他正确答案，因为这会侵蚀我一直以来的核心身份。

And I was so ashamed that I would have to go and ask him for the right answer because that would be just eroding this core identity that I had.

哇。

Wow.

不过听起来这其实挺健康的，你经历了这些，从而不再需要事事都懂。

That sounds like it was really healthy, though, that you got to do that and it set you up to not have to have all the answers.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

我觉得这件事未必是坏事。

I think it was not necessarily a bad thing that happened.

这是个好故事。

It was a good story.

没错。

That's right.

所以当你遇到像帕特里克这样的人时，是不是有种感觉：‘他和我一样’？

So then when you got to meet someone like Patrick, was it a feeling of, Oh, he's like me?

那一定是一种很棒的感觉。

Must have been a great feeling.

确实如此。

It really was.

确实如此。

It really was.

而且他之前创办过一家初创公司，所以他和约翰以前就

And he had done a startup before, so he and John had previously

他当时才21岁，就已经创办过一家公司了。

And he was 21, and he had already done a startup.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yes.

那这件事是怎么发生的？

How did that happen?

所以他们创办了一家初创公司，哦，天哪，我好长时间没想过了。

So they did a startup called oh, man, I haven't thought about this for a while.

我不记得所有细节了，但我想是这样的。

I'm not gonna remember all the details, but I think okay.

帕特里克和约翰在爱尔兰长大，我认为帕特里克通过LIFPS社群认识了保罗·格雷厄姆，他是创业加速器Y Combinator的创始人，而LIFPS是他们非常热衷的一种编程语言。

So Patrick and John grew up in Ireland, and I think that Patrick had met Paul Graham, who runs Y Combinator, this startup incubator, through the LIFPS community, so through the programming language that they were very into.

我认为这就是他后来加入Y Combinator、创办初创公司的契机。

And I think that that was his connection to then doing YC, doing a startup.

这家初创公司被一家名为Live Current Media的公司收购了。

That startup got sold to a company called Live Current Media.

他们为收购方工作了一段时间，但显然这并不是他们想用一生去做的事情。

They worked for the acquirer for some time, but clearly, was not the thing that they wanted to do with their lives.

嗯嗯

Mhmm.

你加入Stripe的时候有多早？

How early were you in Stripe?

在Stripe的早期阶段，我们一共四个人。

So early days of Stripe, there were four of us.

有约翰，有帕特里克，有达拉·巴克利，还有

There was John, there was Patrick, there was Dara Buckley, and there was

我。

me.

嗯嗯

Mhmm.

我刚去的时候，已经有了一些基础设施和一个支付处理器。

And when I first was there, there was some infrastructure and there was a payment processor.

当时我们也不太清楚接下来该怎么做，其中一个想法是：如果我们开发一些应用，然后用我们正在构建的支付系统来支持这些应用呢？

It also wasn't clear exactly how we were going to proceed because there was one idea was, well, what if we build some apps and then use this payment processing we're building to power those apps?

这就是你实际构建东西的方式。

And so that's how you actually build something.

最终，支付处理器可能会成为核心，但这些应用也可能成为方向。

And eventually the payment processor will probably be the thing, but these apps could be too.

当时帕特里克正在开发一个时间追踪工具，这也是其中一个潜在的想法。

And so there was a time tracking thing that Patrick had been working on that was one of the potential ideas.

所以它仍处于初期阶段，但我们已经能看到它的发展方向。

So it's still in this nascent form, but still something that we could see, like the direction of travel.

有趣的是，我之前提到我在麻省理工参加过一个创业课程，课程要求你模拟创办一家初创公司。

And the funny thing, by the way, is that I mentioned that I did this startup class in MIT and that as part of that, you're supposed to build like a mock startup.

而我最终创建的正是一个支付处理器。

And the one that I ended up building was a payment processor.

所以我花了大量时间研究如何在线实现支付处理，结果发现这简直糟透了。

And so I spent all this time trying to figure out how do you do payment processing online and realizing it's horrible.

这太痛苦了。

It's painful.

这就像试图去 PayPal 并阅读他们的文档，想办法注册某个服务。

It's like trying to go to PayPal and trying to like read their documentation, trying to figure out how to sign up for something.

一切都如此晦涩难懂，你不禁会想：怎么可能这么糟糕？

It was just so opaque and you just realize how can it possibly be so bad?

是的。

Yeah.

而这就是 Stripe 的根本突破：我们意识到支付处理完全可以做得更好。

And that was the fundamental unlock for Stripe was this realization that you can do payments processing better.

我记得最初的网站上写着：支付处理没必要这么糟糕。

I remember that the initial website said payment processing doesn't need to suck.

对吧？

Right?

这正是我们的理念：根本没必要这样糟。

And it was just like, like, that is the ethos of just like, it just doesn't need to.

它可以变得更好。

It can be better.

我真的很喜欢这种精神。

And I really like that spirit.

我记得曾经和一位风险投资人谈过。

I remember talking to a VC at some point.

那是上线前的事，但我们已经获得了不少关注。

This was prelaunch, but we had gotten a lot of buzz.

他说：好吧，你们的核心优势是什么？

And he was saying, okay, what is your secret sauce?

我当时说：我们只是做得更好。

And I was like, well, we just do it better.

他回应：不不，别开玩笑了。

And he's like, no, no, come on.

我知道你对每个人都这么说，但她问的是，真正的核心优势到底是什么？

I know that's what you say to everyone, but she's like, what's the actual secret sauce?

我说：我真的不知道该怎么跟你说。

And I'm like, I don't know what to tell you.

我们就是专注于每一个细节，把它们做到位。

Like, that is what we do, is just focus on every single detail and get it right.

所以这其实并不是在创造什么新东西。

So it really wasn't creating something new.

它本来就是PayPal。

It was already PayPal.

只是更好的PayPal。

It was just a much better PayPal.

没错。

Exactly.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

确实是。

It was.

而且我们真的专注于整个体验的每一个细节，从头到尾。

And it was really focusing on the details of the whole experience end to end.

对吧？

Right?

而且真的要思考，因为如果你自己经历过，就会意识到，比如，这个部分，你该怎么注册账户？

And really thinking about just because if you've gone through it yourself and you realize, like, this part, like, how do you sign up for an account?

你该怎么实际连接到API，连接到计算机之间通信的方式？

How do you actually even connect to the APIs to the actual way the computers talk to each other?

你需要针对哪些不同的参数进行编程？

What are the different parameters you program against?

你该怎么决定使用哪种编程语言或哪种封装库？

How do you figure out which programming language to use or which wrapper to use?

所有这些事情。

All these things.

每一件事都可能带来巨大的阻力。

Each one of those can add a ton of friction.

所以如果你只是专注于做好这一项，做好那一项，做好另一项，为自己做好，为朋友做好。

And so if you just focus on, okay, I'm gonna make this one good, this one good, this one good, make it good for myself, make it good for my friends.

实际上，这对每个人都会是一件很棒的好事。

Actually, this will be something nice and good for everyone.

那你为什么离开Stripe呢？

And why did you leave Stripe?

嗯，我在Stripe待了将近五年，四年半左右。

Well, I had been at Stripe for almost five years, four and a half years.

大约在四年左右的时候，我开始思考这是否是我想要长期从事的事业。

And about four years in, I think I started to consider whether or not this was what I wanted to do for the long term.

我看待事情的方式是，假设你的职业生涯以五年为一个阶段。

And the way that I kind of viewed things is like, okay, if you think of your career in five year chunks.

五年是一个合适的长度，因为少于五年的话，很难做出显著的成就。

And five years is about the right length because less than that is kind of hard to do something significant.

我记得当时觉得，我已经把这家公司带到了一个即使没有我也会成功的地步。

And I remember feeling like, okay, I'd gotten this company to a place where it was going to succeed with or without me.

那么问题就来了：我是继续留下，还是去尝试一些新的东西？

And then the question was, do I continue or do I go and do something new?

我对创业这个想法感到非常兴奋。

I was very excited about doing the idea of a startup.

但我记得和帕特里克谈过，他似乎有一些非常有说服力的理由让我留下。

But I remember talking to Patrick, I think he had some very convincing reasons to to stay.

他提到的一点是，要组建一个能够对世界产生重大影响的团队非常困难。

That one point he made is that it's very hard to assemble a group of people that can do significant things in the world.

最理想的情况是，你去创办一家初创公司并取得一些成功。

And best case scenario, you go start some startup and have some success with it.

五年后，你才可能建立起一个能够做事的团队，但你在这里已经拥有它了，对吧？

And then five years later, you'll have formed that group of people that can do stuff, but you already have it here, right?

我们已经拥有一个能够高效完成任务的紧密团队。

We already had this tight group that was able to accomplish things.

那为什么还要离开呢？

And so why walk away from that?

所以这非常艰难。

So it was very tough.

这并不容易。

It was not easy.

我记得当我告诉帕特里克我要离开时，我哭了。

I remember I cried when I told Patrick that I was out.

是的，这真的非常艰难。

Like, yeah, it was very, very tough.

他和约翰为我举办了一场果汁派对。

He and John threw a juice party for me.

这是一次非常温馨的送别。

It was a very, very nice send off.

我回忆起当时思考这个问题时的感觉：如果真的很难组建起一群能成就大事的人，那我必须现在就开始行动。

And the reason that I decided, I remember feeling like, as I thought that through, I was like, well, if it really is so hard to build that group of people who can accomplish significant things, I got to get started now.

对。

Yeah.

听起来你离开是因为Stripe的使命并不是你希望专注的使命。

It sounds like you left because the mission of Stripe wasn't the mission that you wanted to focus on.

这是真的。

That is true.

是的，这是一个美好的使命，我非常支持。

Yeah, it's a beautiful mission and it's one I very much support.

但要说清楚的是，这是否是我必须以任何形式都去追求的使命呢？

But it's different to say, is this one where I will just need to pursue it in any form?

你离开的时候，知道自己接下来要做什么吗？还是只是打算边走边看？

And did you leave knowing what was going to be next or did you leave thinking I'm going to figure it out?

更偏向于后者。

More the latter.

我列出了三个可能专注的领域。

I had a list of three different areas I might focus on.

第一个是人工智能。

Number one was AI.

第二个是虚拟现实和增强现实。

Number two was VRAR.

第三个是编程教育。

Number three was programming education.

对我来说，如果我能以某种方式为人工智能做出贡献，那我就去做。

And for me, it was very clear if I can contribute to AI in some way, okay, I'm doing that.

但我不确定自己是否具备这些技能。

But it wasn't clear to me, do I have the skills?

现在是合适的时机吗？

Is it the time?

所有这些问题。

All those things.

所以另外两个只是备选方案。

And so the other two were kind of backup options.

我知道你曾经写过一本化学教科书。

I understand there was a point in time that you wrote a chemistry textbook.

那是真的。

That is true.

那是什么时候？

When was that?

那也是2008年。

That was also 2008.

所以高中毕业后，我休学了一年。

So after high school, I took a year off.

我在高中期间主要专注于学业，既修了大学课程，也参加了各种竞赛。

And I had spent much of my high school doing academic, both college courses, but also competitions.

我非常投入数学竞赛，也深深迷上了化学竞赛。

I got very into math competitions, got very into chemistry competitions.

我记得十年级时，因为九年级已经学过化学，我妈妈在网上找到了一个化学竞赛，我就随便参加了。

And I remember tenth grade, because I'd taken chemistry in ninth grade, I took some chemistry competition that my mom had found online and just kind of did it on the mark.

我获得了我所在地区的第一名。

And I got best in my region.

我当时想，嗯，这挺酷的。

I was like, okay, that's cool.

我所在的州并没有这个比赛，所以我去明尼苏达州参加。

I got my state didn't really have it, so I was in Minnesota to do it.

我参加了全州的比赛，并获得了州第一名。

I took the statewide one and I got best in the state.

他们邀请我参加国际化学奥林匹克竞赛的培训营。

And they invited me to the training camp for the International Chemistry Olympiad.

也就是说，这是全国前20名的学生。

So it's top 20 kids in the nation.

为此，他们会提前寄一些教科书给你。

And for this, they send you some textbooks ahead of time.

他们说：请阅读这本有机化学教材的第一到第八章。

They say, please read chapters one through eight of this organic chemistry textbook.

这些就是培训营将使用的教材。

These are the textbook we're going use for the camp.

于是我读完了第一到第八章。

And so I read through chapters one through eight.

我没太当回事。

Didn't take it that seriously.

我当时想，看吧，我注定会成功。

I was like, look, I am just destined to succeed.

就是会顺利进行的。

Like, it's just going to work.

到目前为止都顺利发生了。

Like, it happened so far.

我记得我去了化学竞赛的训练营。

And I remember I showed up at the chemistry competition at the chemistry camp.

其他孩子读的不只是那前八章。

And the other kids had read not just those first eight chapters.

他们读完了所有书。

They'd read all the books.

他们读的不只是这一整本书，还有那些厚厚的物理化学和其他书籍。

They'd read not just the whole one book, but all these big fat, like physical chemistry, all these other ones.

我当时就想，等等，什么？

And I was just like, wait, what?

你能做到那样？

You can do that?

那些人真的在做这些？

These other people are doing that?

我记得在为期两周的培训期间，我感到无比沮丧和挫败，因为那些人懂的所有东西我都不懂。

And I remember just feeling so demoralized and crushed for the two weeks of the training because it was just like these people knew all these things that I didn't know.

我们本该为期末考试复习的。

And we were supposed to be studying for the final exam.

我在房间里玩手机游戏。

I was playing cell phone games in my room.

我就放弃了。

I just gave up.

我当时想，根本没希望了。

I was like, there's just no hope.

然后他们宣布了前四名去参加国际赛。

And so they announced the top four to go to the international.

他们说，这四个人都不是我。

They said, these four people, they weren't me.

他们宣布了两名亚军。

They announced two runners up.

他们公布了那两个人。

They announced those two.

不是我。

It wasn't me.

我当时想，我真是二十岁了。

I was like, I am honestly 20.

幸运的是，他们不会告诉你其他人的具体排名。

Fortunately, they don't tell you the ranking of the rest.

我当时想，太差了。

I was like, so bad.

我记得新学年开始时，回望自己那个夏天是如何度过的。

And I remember at the beginning of the next school year, looking back at how I'd spent that summer.

我觉得自己面前有一个绝佳的机会，却白白浪费了。

And I felt like I had this amazing opportunity in front of me, and I'd squandered it.

那种感觉非常糟糕。

And it was a horrible feeling.

我有一种感觉，自己只是随波逐流，以为单靠天赋就能自然达到我想去的地方。

It was this feeling that I had just coasted, that I just sort of believed that talent alone would just get me to where I wanted to go.

我不需要努力。

I didn't have to work hard.

我当时就想，我再也不想有这样的感觉了。

And I was like, I never want to feel that again.

因此，那一年我认真对待了这件事。

And so I took it seriously that year.

我开始学习物理化学。

I started taking physical chemistry.

我选修了有机化学。

I took organic chemistry.

我选了所有这些课程。

I took all these things.

我花了大量时间研究过去的化学竞赛题目，认真学习，并查阅了大量资料，以成为一名真正的竞争者。

I spent a lot of time on looking at old chemistry competitions and learning them and looking through a bunch of different material in order to become a real competitor.

那一年，我入选了前四名的团队，参加了国际化学奥林匹克竞赛，并获得了一枚银牌。

And that year, I made the team of the top four, went to the International Chemistry Olympiad, got a silver medal.

这是一次非常非常棒的经历。

It was very, very awesome experience.

我真的很享受这个过程。

I really enjoyed it.

但对我来说，最大的收获是：你必须始终努力付出。

But for me, the big takeaway was this feeling of you always have to work hard.

我最喜欢的一句名言是关于自行车的：事情永远不会变得更容易。

And one of my favorite quotes is the cycling quote, It never gets easier.

你只是变得更快。

You just go faster.

我认为这一点是我一直奉行的准则。

And I think that that is something I very much live by.

那你是怎么决定写这本书的呢？

So how did you end up writing the book?

我觉得我找到了一种看待化学的独特方式，一种基于数学第一性原理的方法。

Well, I felt like I'd come up with a very unique way of looking at chemistry, a very mathematical first principles approach to it.

因为如果你读大多数化学教科书，它们只是说：好吧，记住这些反应就行了。

Because if you read most chemistry textbooks, it just says, well, basically memorize these reactions.

这些是化学性质。

Here are these chemical properties.

这些是化合物。

Here's these compounds.

但你总会问为什么。

But you always ask why.

比如，为什么会是这样？

Like, why is it that way?

这些原子必须以这种方式相互作用吗？

Does it have to be that these atoms interact in this way?

这个化合物必须是这个颜色吗？

Or does this compound have to be this color?

你是如何从第一性原理推导出来的？

Like, how do you derive it from first principles?

所以，为了在比赛中表现优异，我采取的方法是努力找出背后的规律，而不是仅仅

And so the approach that I'd taken in order to be good at the competitions was to really try to figure out the underlying rules, not the

这在你读的教科书里并没有提到。

Which wasn't in the textbook that you read.

教科书里没有这些内容。

It's not in the textbook.

你必须自己提炼出来。

You have to distill it down yourself.

对吧？

Right?

也许他们试图以某种方式沟通，但那并不是他们花时间去做的事情。

And maybe they try to communicate in some way, but it's like, it's just not the thing that they spend their time on.

所以我整理了这本书的结构。

And so I structured the the book.

我觉得我对化学的教学方式与众不同，我按照一些朋友在数学领域——特别是名为‘问题解决的艺术’的数学论坛——所做的方式来组织内容，那里采用的是非常苏格拉底式的教学法。

I felt like I had a different way of of teaching chemistry, and I structured it in a way that was inspired by some of my friends who had done something similar in math, in this math forum called the art of problem solving, where it's a very Socratic method.

所以这本书里全是问题，但这些问题经过精心设计，每一个都层层递进。

So the book has just questions, but they're intentionally scoped so that each one builds up.

第一个问题从你本应掌握的知识出发，只要你稍加思考，就会明白其中的道理。

And so the first one starts from knowledge you should have, if you just think a little bit, you're like, oh, I can see how this works.

下一个问题是建立在前一个问题的基础上，再下一个又建立在再前一个问题的基础上。

And the next one builds on the previous thing, the next one builds on the previous thing.

在化学领域，你需要一些实验结果。

In the case of chemistry, you need some experimental results.

你会说，比如这个双缝实验。

You say like, here's this double slit experiment.

然后你会想，好吧，这对粒子和波来说意味着什么？

And then you're like, okay, well, what does it mean for particle versus wave?

接着，如果它既是粒子又是波，那么，你知道的，以此类推。

And then, okay, if it's both a particle and a wave, then, you know, and so forth.

这正是我非常想传达给他人的东西，我真的很在意这一点，不只是让这种教学方式只停留在我的脑海里，而是希望其他人也能从中受益。

And this was something that I really wanted to communicate to others, that I really cared about, not just this approach living in my head, but other people being able to benefit from it.

不过，我最终没有完成。

Now, I never finished.

我写到了大约一百页左右。

I made it through about a 100 pages.

如果你感兴趣，可以在我的网站上找到它。

You can find it on my website if you're interested.

但我认为这种精神是我真正想延续下去的。

But I felt like that ethos was something I really wanted to carry forward.

你实际上写出了你希望自己当初能读到的那本书。

You basically wrote the book that you wish you could have read.

没错，就是这样。

That's exactly right.

太棒了。

That's great.

是的。

Yes.

编程与其他活动有哪些相似或不同之处？

How is coding similar or different to other activities?

我认为编程的方式是，你深刻理解某个过程。

So the way that I think about coding is that you deeply understand some process.

你用一种非常晦涩的方式——我们称之为程序——把它写下来，然后任何人都能从中受益，对吧？

You write it down in a very obscure way we call a program, and then anyone can get the benefit of that thinking, right?

人们不需要自己写代码。

People don't need to write the code.

他们不需要了解其中涉及的机械原理。

They don't need to understand the sort of mechanics of what went into it.

我认为还有其他一些非常脑力密集的领域也是如此，比如数学，对吧？

And I think that there are other very cerebral domains that are like this, like mathematics, right?

你认真思考一个问题，然后以一种晦涩的方式写下来，我们称之为证明，但没人会去读这些证明，只有少数五位关注特定领域的数学家才会深入阅读。

Where you think hard about a problem, you write it down in an obscure way, we call it proof, but no one reads those, Only like the five mathematicians who care about a particular domain will really deeply read it.

所以在我看来，编程之所以与众不同，是因为它几乎像魔法一样。

And so I think that what makes coding stand apart to me is it's almost like magic.

你脑海中有一个构想，只需通过描述，它就真的实现了。

You sort of have this vision in your head and you just, by describing it, somehow it comes to be.

因此，在某种程度上，这就像管理一样，你有一台计算机，它会按照你脑海中的愿景，以非常字面的方式执行任务，当你编写程序时。

And so in some ways it's like management, right, that you have a computer that is there to perform the function that you have in mind, the vision that you have, and that it carries it out in a very literal fashion when you write a program.

我认为，这在我所知的其他任何传统领域中都从未见过。

And I think that that to me is something I've never seen in really any other traditional domain.

就像你做的许多其他事情，都无法获得这种同样的杠杆效应，对吧？

Like it feels like many other things that you might do that you just don't get that same leverage, right?

如果你心中有一个愿景，而它 somehow 变成了现实，你却不需要在现实中物理地移动任何东西。

If you have this vision and somehow it comes into reality and that you don't have to physically move things in the world.

它就这样自然而然地实现了。

It just comes to be.

你会更倾向于把它描述为一种语言，还是一种数学？

Would you describe it more like a language or more like math?

我会更倾向于把它描述为一种数学。

I would describe it more like math.

但关于数学，我认为人们有一个误解，那就是数学并不是一加一，对吧？

But the thing about math that I think there's a misconception for is that math is not one plus one, right?

它不是关于这些机械式的计算。

It's not about these like mechanical calculations.

数学是关于宇宙的底层结构，对吧？

Math is about the underlying structures of the universe, right?

它是关于理解不同对象、不同概念之间如何以一种深层的概念方式相互关联，以及这些对象之间的对称性和关系看起来有多么不同。

It's about understanding how different objects, different ideas relate to each other in this deep conceptual way and the sort of symmetries and the relationships between objects look very, very different.

我认为编程也是如此。

And I think that programming is like that.

它真正关乎理解一个网站应该如何工作，用户想要什么，以及在各种边缘情况下事物应该如何表现。

It's really about understanding how should a website work or what does someone want and what are all the different ways that something in a corner case should behave.

如果出现错误，我们该如何处理？

If there's an error, how should we handle it?

所有这些事情看起来有些平凡，但如果你深入观察其底层架构，你会意识到：你有多个系统彼此通信，数据以不同形式存储，像加密这样的概念也被运用其中。

All of these things, they feel somewhat mundane, but if you really look at the underlying architecture, you're thinking about, you have all these systems that are talking to each other, you have data stored in these different forms, you have ideas like encryption that are brought to play.

你如何协调这一切，以交付有用的东西？

And how do you orchestrate all of that in a way that delivers something useful?

因此，在我看来，这正是数学之美被具象化为实用形式的过程。

And so to me, I think it's about the beauty of mathematics that's reified into useful form.

数学是自然的上层结构，还是自然是数学的上层结构？

Is math an overlay on nature, or is nature an overlay on math?

这是个很好的问题。

That's a great question.