#719：即使在熊市中，比特币仍在获胜——与亚历克斯·莱什曼对话

我喝这个。

I drink it.

我们的孩子们也喝。

Our boys drink it.

保持水分。

Stay hydrated.

这真是件美好的事。

It's a beautiful thing.

嗯，嘿。

Well, hey.

现在我们的储蓄能获得这笔收益了。

They're gonna get this yield on our savings now.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我本来就可以让他们去办这件事。

It's like I mean, I I could already have them get that.

对吧？

Right?

所以这就像银行账户里一个奇怪的抽象概念，似乎没人真需要它。

So it's it's kinda just like this weird abstraction in the bank account that is unclear anyone really needs.

嗯，现在在国会山，银行和Coinbase之间，这显然是一个争议很大的话题。

Well, it seems to be a big big topic of contention right now on Capitol Hill between the banks and Coinbase, specifically.

我的意思是，这整个情况，还有另一个有趣的子主题，就是这种冲突或交汇。

I mean, this whole and then that's another interesting sort of sub theme, this sort of clash or intersection.

谁知道最终会怎样，但看起来Grayscale的人正在关注比特币和加密货币日益突出，有点紧张不安。

Who knows ultimately what it will prove to be, but it seems like the gratify guys are looking at Bitcoin and crypto becoming more prominent and clutching their pearls a bit.

关于稳定币收益分配的这场争斗非常有趣。

This this fight over sharing the yield on stablecoin is very interesting.

是的。

Yes.

银行不希望稳定币发行方能够向持有者支付利息，因为那样会给他们带来竞争，毕竟这些大银行本质上是在欺骗所有人。

The banks don't want the stablecoin issuers to be able to pay back interest to the holders because then they're worried that that will put that will give them competition because these big banks are scamming everyone, basically.

比如，如果你在大型银行——摩根大通、摩根士丹利、美国银行、富国银行——开的是默认的支票账户和储蓄账户，它们给账户持有人的利率只有0.01%，而这些钱它们白拿白用。

Like, your check your your checking and savings accounts, if you just have, like, the default ones at the largest banks, JPMorgan, Chase, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, they're paying, like, 0.01%, like, of their account holders, and they're just eating all of that money for free.

所以它们并不真正希望出现对消费者如此友好的方式，能获得真正的市场利率。

And so they don't really want super consumer friendly ways to earn actual market interest rates.

所以，是的，它们正在抵制这一点。

So, yeah, they're they're fighting that.

但我们的River平台已经提供高收益利率了。

But, I mean, we already offer a high yield interest rate at River.

比如，你在River存现金，就能获得3.3%的收益，而且是以比特币形式计息。

Like, you have cash in River, you earn 3.3% and you earn in Bitcoin.

所以，金融科技公司其实已经在和它们竞争了。

So, you know, fintechs are already competing with them.

但我认为，银行账户本身普遍具有很强的粘性，很多人一辈子都只用一个花旗账户，他们也甘愿让花旗拿走自己所有的利息。

But I think, like, just bank accounts are so sticky in general that, you know, you get so many people that they've just had a Chase account their whole life, and they're okay just with Chase basically taking all of their interest.

是的。

Yeah.

把资金拿去进行套利交易，加杠杆至10倍，以此获利。

Taking it, putting it in a carry trade, levering it up, like, 10 x more so they can profit.

是的。

Yeah.

这让我想起我之前和财政部的一些人聊过。

That's the interesting I talked to some guys at Treasury.

我在华盛顿参加了一个BPI活动，他们说银行很担心，因为必须平掉这些头寸。

Was at a BPI event in DC, and they're saying the banks are worried because they got to unwind all that.

这迫使它们必须更加聚焦于核心业务。

It makes them have to have a much more narrow focus.

但正如你所说，这些替代方案已经存在了。

But to your point, these alternatives already exist.

在River平台上，只要存入现金，就能获得收益，并自动转换为比特币。

They exist at River with cash in, get yield that's automatically converted into Bitcoin.

我认为这引出了一个有趣的问题，因为目前在国会山，主要的冲突正是Coinbase与银行之间的对抗。

And I I think this gets to an interesting point because, like, the the again, the big clash right now in Capitol Hill is Coinbase towards the banks.

我们想要分享收益。

Like, we wanna share the yield.

市场认为银行在抑制这项创新，不让它进入市场。

And the market's treating this like the banks are withholding this innovation from the market.

如果Coinbase赢了，我们就能获得我们的收益。

Like, if Coinbase wins, we'll be able to get our yield.

就像是，嘿。

It's like, hey.

但这些创新其实已经存在了，这说明我们在比特币上可能面临一个叙事上的问题。

It already exists, which points to maybe positioning in a narrative problem that we have in Bitcoin.

这些事物其实早就存在了。

Like, these these things already exist.

你只需要去寻找，去发现它们。

You just need to find you just need to go out and find them.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗，我不禁想，稳定币的争论是否更多围绕着国际层面的机会。

You know, I do wonder if the stablecoin debate is more around the international, like, opportunity.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但同时，Coinbase 和 Circle 也在关注 Tether 的动向。

But But it's also, like, Coinbase and Circle, see what Tether's doing.

他们心想：我想把他们排除在外。

They're like, I I wanna box them out.

嗯。

Mhmm.

完全正确。

Totally.

我真的认为，我们现在仍处于建设阶段，而当那些基本已成定局的经济力量——比如持续的通货膨胀，不断侵蚀人们的储蓄、美元储蓄——真正开始产生影响时，未来我们会看到大量用户从这些大型银行中撤离。

I I do think that really, you know, we're still in this this build mode, and then when the economic forces that are basically set in stone really start to hit inflation and continue to devalue peep like, people's saving, the dollar savings, we'll we'll see an in the future, we'll see a large exodus from these these big banks.

是的。

Yeah.

记住，我们正在为一个美元仍占主导地位的未来构建金融机构，由于网络效应，你仍不得不使用美元作为交易媒介，但你并不想把它作为储蓄工具。

Remember, we're building the financial institution for a future that's where the dollar is still and you're still stuck using the dollar as a medium of exchange because of the network effect, but you it's not something you wanna be saving in.

因此，我们设想了一个未来。

And so, you know, we we we envision a future.

我们称之为双重货币的未来：人们用比特币储蓄，但仍然主要用美元进行消费和收入获取。

We call it like a dual money future where people save in Bitcoin, but they continue to primarily still spend and earn in dollars.

我们认为，这种账户将取代传统的银行账户。

And we think that that type of account is gonna is gonna replace the the traditional bank accounts.

这正是我们正在努力实现的目标。

And that's what we're building towards.

对于真正相信比特币的人来说，这一点今天已经很有吸引力，但真正的突破在于，当人们真正意识到用美元储蓄行不通的时候。

And, you know, that's this it's pretty compelling today for people who actually believe in Bitcoin, but the real unlock is when people really start to see that saving in dollars just isn't gonna work.

是的。

Yeah.

你会怎么回应那些看到银行争相整合比特币和加密货币，并认为所有以比特币为先、只做比特币的初创公司都会被这些大型机构碾压的人呢？因为这些机构拥有资本、规模和现成的客户网络，可以一夜之间就实现这一功能。

What what would you say to people is who are looking at the banks racing to integrate Bitcoin and crypto and saying that all these Bitcoin startups that are Bitcoin first, Bitcoin only, they're gonna get blown out by these institutions because they're gonna have the capital, the scale, the network effect of a client base already to just implement this overnight.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为我根本不用担心这一点，因为说实话，我不认为摩根大通会在不久的将来把比特币和你的支票账户并列展示。

I think that I'm not really worried at all about that because I like, you know, I don't see a future where JPMorgan is putting Bitcoin side by side in your checking account in the near future.

他们实际上并不相信这一点。

They just don't actually they don't believe that.

他们不相信这样的未来。

They don't believe in that future.

它永远只会是一个依赖第三方的附属功能，用户体验很差，但会有一些人使用。

It'll always be this, like, side thing that uses a third party It's kind of a crappy user experience, and, like, we'll get some people using it.

但他们根本不会去打造一个有竞争力的产品，因为整个组织及其文化基因并不认为这是未来。

But, like, you're not they're not actually gonna build a competitive product because the organization and its DNA does not believe this is the future.

如果他们最终真的意识到这一点并赶上来，那也没关系，你知道的，市场就像潮水，涨潮时所有船只都会被托起。

And so and if it is, and if they eventually, like, realize that and they catch up, well, you know, the markets move like you know, a rising tide lifts all ships.

如果摩根大通最终将比特币作为一级资产整合进来，我们的业务也会随之大幅增长。

If JPMorgan eventually integrates Bitcoin as a first class citizen, we will have grown tremendously as a business as well.

而且这会发生的，因为像River这样的公司已经抢占了市场份额。

And it's it will because, like, a company like River has taken market share.

这就是他们开始这么做的原因。

That's why they would start doing it.

而他们所拥有的惯性是如此之大。

And the the inertia that they have is so large.

他们不会倒闭，但我们所有人都知道，他们只是在努力追赶我们。

It's it's it's not like they're gonna die, but we all it's it wouldn't be like a they would just be trying to catch up with us.

是的。

Yeah.

我也非常认同这一点。

I I'm a big believer in that too.

这就像一场巨大的转变。

This is like a big quittering.

作为早期采用者，你知道，后来的浪潮、后来的用户是否真的在意这一点，我觉得很难相信他们会信任JPMorgan来托管他们的比特币。

You know, as we're early adopters and who knows if the later waves, the later adoption waves, and the people come on those waves care at all that I would find it very hard to believe to trust JPMorgan with my Bitcoin.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，归根结底，他们会关注用户体验，关注他们能得到什么。

I mean, you know, at the end of day, they'll care about user experience, and they'll care about what they're getting.

对吧？

Right?

我认为这就是你竞争的地方。

And I think that that's where you compete.

他们会关注服务、用户体验和经济性。

They'll care about service, user experience, and economics.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为新兴企业确实在用户体验上更胜一筹，而且也更简单。

And I think the upstarts definitely beat on UX and it's easier.

是的。

Yeah.

这其实是另一个有趣的话题，我们正处在AI工具涌入市场的浪潮中。

Well, that's like that's another interesting topic we dive into, like, with this wave of AI tools coming to market.

我好像还没直接跟你聊过这个。

I don't think I've talked to you directly about this.

你们在River公司有在使用这些工具吗？

Like like, are you guys leveraging these tools at River?

如果有，这是否改变了你们对业务未来增长轨迹的看法——不仅从收入和盈利的角度，更重要的是从人员规模的角度？这有没有影响你们的看法？

And if so, has it changed your perspective on what the future trajectory of the growth of your business from a revenue profitability standpoint, but more importantly, like, a headcount standpoint, has it has it affected your views on this at all?

关于这些问题，我脑子里同时有两种相互矛盾的想法。

I have kind of two competing thoughts in my head at the same time about these things.

一方面，我相信随着这些工具的能力持续加速提升，它们将为我们的业务释放巨大的潜力，让我们更快前进。

On one hand, I do believe that as these tools continue to accelerate in their capabilities, they'll unlock tremendous potential to move faster for our business.

它已经在多个方面显著提升了我们工程团队的生产力，但并非所有地方都如此。

It's already in, you know, pretty heavily improved the productivity for our engineering team in a in a number of places, but not every place.

我认为，这些工具真正向人们揭示的是：对大多数事情来说，最难的从来都不是写代码。

And I think that, really, what a lot of these tools are surfacing to people is the hard part was never really writing the code for most things anyways.

有一些任务和构建应用程序或科技公司的方面，现在只是写代码并完成这件事变得容易多了。

There are certain, like, tasks and aspects of building an application or a tech company, where just, like, writing the code and getting this thing done is is, like, just a lot easier now.

但你所做的一切重要事情通常都不是这样。

But all of the consequential things that you do are usually not that.

你所做的事情中重要的部分，通常需要人类来综合复杂信息，运用判断力，并基于对客户群体的理解来优先处理并调整产品。

The consequential things that you do are usually require humans to synthesize complexity and apply taste and their understanding of their client base to prioritize and make changes to the product.

AI正在加速那些让你能够完成这些任务的子任务，但它并没有真正加速我们人类决策中的瓶颈。

And AI is accelerating, like, subsets of tasks that allow you to do that, but it doesn't really accelerate a lot of our human decision making bottleneck there.

我不认为在短期内它会改变这一点。

And I'm I don't see a short term future where it does.

但确实有一些领域，它极大地加速了进程。

So but there are some areas where it is it it really accelerates things.

比如昨天，当我们为我们的客户生成账户对账单时。

Like, yesterday, for example, like, when we generate account statements for our for our customers.

对吧？

Right?

我们过去不得不使用一个PDF工具，先生成数据，然后再用另一个系统来生成PDF文件。

We we historically, we had to use this, like, PDF tool where we, like, generate the data, and then, like, we use this other system that, like, generates the PDFs.

PDF文件非常复杂，很难掌握如何制作它们。

PDFs are, like, super complicated to understand how to make them.

但借助AI，我当时就跟大家说：嘿，各位。

But with AI, I I, you know, I was like, hey, guys.

试试直接现在就生成PDF吧，写代码直接生成PDF，因为这些AI懂得如何制作PDF，它们掌握所有相关信息。

Like, try and just make the PDF directly now from and write the code to just generate the PDF directly because these AIs understand how to make PDFs, you know, and they have all that information.

他们有点犹豫，因为从来没人这么做过。

And they were like, you know, they were like a little hesitant because, like, no one ever's ever no one really does this.

像这样做事非常不寻常。

It's very unusual to do something like this.

我又跟大家说：嘿，各位。

And I was like, hey, guys.

你们看。

Like, look.

现在完全是另一个世界了。

It's a different world right now.

我们就试试吧。

Let's just try it.

我们昨天只花了半天时间做实验，结果竟然完美成功了。

And we experimented for, like, half a day yesterday, and it actually worked beautifully.

所以我们现在可以删除整个这个子系统了，反正我们再也不需要它了。

And so we're able to delete, like, this whole, you know, subsystem that we just don't need anymore.

像这样的事情，真的非常神奇。

And so there are things like that where it's really, like, magical.

但我认为，它并没有帮我们做出更好的产品决策，也没有节省我们在房间里争论正确设计决策的时间。

But I don't think, like it it isn't unlocking us, like, making better product decisions, or it's not prevent it's not like saving us time sitting in a room and debating, like, the right, you know, design decisions.

所以，这就是我两种相互矛盾的看法。

So that those are, like, my two sort of competing takes.

不。

No.

我完全同意。

And I I I would completely agree.

我的意思是，过去一个半月我们一直在大力投入。

I mean, it's been we've been leaning in heavily over the last month and a half.

我的意思是，其实过去两年我们一直在大力投入，但现在，比如这个‘Open Claw’现象。

I mean, we've been leaning in heavily for the last two years, really, but now, like, the the Open Claw phenomena.

我们已经用了这个工具大约五六周了，它极大地扩展了我们的能力。

We've been using that for, like, six weeks now or five or six weeks, and it's really extended what we can do.

至于你提到的品味问题，我确实有很多想法。

And to your point about taste, like, there's a ton of ideas I've had.

我当时想，好吧。

It was like, okay.

我很想做这个，但我们资金有限。

I would love to do this, but we're bootstrapped.

我们一直精简运营。

We run lean.

我们只有有限的精力来尝试这些事情。

We only have so much capacity to try these things.

现在有了OpenClaw，它让我们能够快速推进许多目标，但关于品味，我们重新设计了每周五天的晨间通讯，基本上不是自动化的，而是由AI或一个小工具来构建它。

And now with OpenClaw, like, it's allowing us to, like, sprint towards a lot of the the goals, but taste is like, we revamped our morning newsletter five days a week, and it's pretty much not automated, but the the AI or or a little clanker builds it.

但其中包含大量品味的成分，这是一个我和我的助手马丁之间的协作过程，马丁是更高级版本的Marty，我们一整天都在合作，挑选出那些未被纳入通讯中的故事和结构，这其中有很多如精选之类的品味工作。

But there's a lot of taste, and it's collaborative sort of endeavor between myself and my agent Martin, who's a more sophisticated version of Marty, throughout the day to sort of just, like, get the get the stories that weren't included in the newsletter and the structure, but there's lot of tastes like curating.

但现在我不再需要花两三个小时来实际排版和把内容放进通讯里，而是可以在一整天里，把链接和语音转文字的笔记放进Google表格，记录我想针对某个话题重点讨论的内容。

But now I have the ability instead of spending two, three hours actually formatting and putting putting things into the newsletter, I can just throughout the day put links in a Google Sheets with some notes, voice to text notes about what I wanna touch on with a particular topic.

然后在一天结束时，叫上马丁，说：好了。

And then at the end of the day, hit up Martin and be like, okay.

去查看那个Google表格。

Go to the Google Sheet.

看看我放进去的内容，我们一起把通讯整理出来。

Look at what I put in there, and let's put together the newsletter.

三十分钟后，通讯就准备好了。

And thirty minutes later, it's ready to go.

这种品味极其重要。

Like, that the taste is extremely important.

但在高效完成工作方面，尤其是对于小团队来说，它正在加速这一进程。

But in terms of being able to get stuff done, particularly with small teams, it's accelerating that.

而且我认为外面还存在一个误解：你并不需要工作得更多，但如果你有高度的自主性和意志力，就会像我一样，在过去四周里，我熬夜到凌晨一点的次数比过去两年加起来还多，因为我一想到现在我们可以去追求这些想法，就忍不住行动。

And I think there's a misnomer going around out there too, which is you're you're not gonna have to work more, but if you have high agency and willpower, it's just like I've I've had more one AM nights over the last four weeks than I have in, like, the last two years because I'm just like, oh, we can go after these ideas now.

当然。

Absolutely.

从招聘和人员编制的角度来看，它实际上并没有改变我们的人员编制预测。

And I I I think what it does, and from a hiring perspective and a headcount perspective, is it it honestly hasn't changed our headcount projections.

它只是进一步明确了我们招聘人选的标准。

It's just solidified and hammered home the qualifiers that we have for who we hire.

我们只会雇佣那些具备高度自主性、有品味、能够综合理解业务问题的人，也就是招聘那些具备我们所需特质、能解决这些AI无法应对的真实人类瓶颈的人。

Like, we just will only hire people we think are high agency, who have taste, who can synthesize and understand the business problems, and act like, hire people who have the qualities that we need to solve the real human bottlenecks that still exist that these AIs aren't solving.

通过雇佣更多这样的人，你依然可以完成更多工作。

And you can still get more done by hiring more of those people.

你不需要那些只做琐碎工作、不从第一性原理出发、不理解业务的代码工人。

You just don't need the people who are doing busy work and the code monkeys who aren't thinking from first principles and understanding the business.

这就是我的看法。

So that's my take.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这是一个崭新的世界。

It's a brave new world.

这太有趣了，因为我感觉我们正站在一个临界点上。

It's so funny because I get the sense that we're just, like, teetering.

如今的世界既令人兴奋又完全令人不安，因为我们似乎可以走向许多不同的方向。

Like, the world right now is, like, equally exhilarating and completely unnerving because it's like we can go many different directions.

显然，在地缘政治上，现在所有人都在关注霍尔木兹海峡，思考我们该如何应对伊朗。

Obviously, geopolitically, everybody's meeting the Strait Of Hormuz right now to figure out what we're gonna do with Iran.

我们有，正如我们所说，爱泼斯坦的文件。

We got, like we said, the Epstein files here.

我们有这场人工智能的爆发。

We got this AI explosion.

你看到高密度的垃圾经济正以疯狂的速度加速，伴随着预测市场。

You've got the high velocity trash economy just accelerating at a crazy pace with prediction markets.

现在，注意力市场突然在Zorra上出现了。

Now we have attention markets that just dropped on Zorra.

什么是注意力市场？

What is attention markets?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你还记得Zorra吗？

Remember Zorra?

它就像一个币安。

It was like a coin base.

他们转向了Solana，但现在你可以点

They they pivoted and they're on Solana now, but you can Point

类似空气内容的东西吗？

air content kind of thing?

这不仅仅是这样，人们还可以对趋势下注，基本上跟着趋势走并以某种方式变现。

It's like well, not only that, but people can can bet on trends, can can basically ride trends and monetize it somehow.

我不明白它是怎么运作的，也不明白为什么你会想这么做。

I don't understand how it works or why you would wanna do it.

但嗯，

But Well,

我觉得在过去十年里，尤其是在我们的行业，以及我们现在离开加密货币、转向预测市场时看到的情况是，有一类人专门追逐金融化和新游戏，他们能说服普通人参与，因为他们可以从中抽取利益。

I think I think there is this thing where, you know, what we've seen in the last ten years, especially in our industry, and what we're seeing now leaving crypto and just moving elsewhere with prediction markets is you just have this, like, class of people that chases financialization and new games they can convince normies to to play because they can just extract.

我觉得我们现在正看到这一点。

And I think that's like, we're just seeing that now.

我认为预测市场就是这一点的一个很好的例子。

I think prediction markets is a big example of that.

它确实有一些真正合法且酷的应用场景，比如试图理解将要发生的事情或真相，我觉得这实际上非常酷且富有创新性。

It has, like, some really legitimate cool use cases, like trying to just understand what's gonna happen or the truth, I which I think is actually very cool and innovative.

但实际上，90%以上的交易量都只是体育博彩。

But actually, like, 90 something percent of the volume is just sports betting.

所以归根结底，你拿了这项技术，然后就说：好吧，我们就从那些我们能收割的人群中榨取价值吧。

So it's like, you know, at the end of the day, like, you take this this technology and then it's just like, oh, let's just, yeah, like, extract from a subset of the population who we can farm.

我要说，体育博彩尤其如此，如果你把所有钱或所有时间都花在上面，你不该这么做。

Well, I will say, this is like sports betting is especially if you're spending all your money on it or all your time on it, you shouldn't be doing that.

但如果你把它和DraftKings或者大型博彩公司相比，那就另当别论了。

But if you're trying to compare it to, like, DraftKings or, like, the big books, it's like, okay.

我能理解这个观点，预测市场更有道理，因为没有庄家抽成，你可以同时押注双方。

I can see the argument, like, prediction markets make more sense because there's no house take it big and to play both sides.

它是点对点的。

Like, it's peer to peer.

如果你愿意承担这个风险

If you wanna take that risk

你也可以随时进出仓位，是的。

You can also trade in and out of a position Yeah.

这很有趣。

Which is interesting.

你只能退出。

You can only get out.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

所以，与现状相比，我认为从公平性角度来看，这对消费者整体是有利的。

So, like, compared to the status quo, I think it is net benefit for consumers from a fairness perspective.

但如果你缺乏自控力，你仍然可能在这些预测市场中输掉所有钱。

But if you don't have impulse control, you can still lose all your money in these prediction markets.

我的意思是，真正的争议在于州一级，以前德克萨斯州和加利福尼亚州的体育博彩是非法的。

I mean, the real fight is the state the state level where you had Texas and California had just sports betting was illegal.

现在预测市场却说，哦，我们是联邦层面合法的，你知道的，常规的。

And now the prediction markets are going, oh, we're federally, you know, regular.

我们可以在任何地方开展这项业务。

We're allowed to do this everywhere.

突然之间，加利福尼亚和德克萨斯的所有人都能进行体育博彩了，而他们以前是不能的，这就引发了一个关于州权的大问题，这本身也挺有意思的。

And and then all of a sudden, everyone in California and Texas can now sports bet when they couldn't before, and it's like this big states' rights question, which is also, like, kind of an interesting thing.

我们看看会怎样

We'll see how

这符合

that fits

情况。

out.

这件事最终可能会上诉到最高法院。

It might end up in the Supreme Court.

是的

Yeah.

但我感觉我们正在打这些仗，我认为这场斗争的核心是我们迈向数字时代时人性的本质。

But I feel like we're fighting all these battles, and I think the core of the battle is the the essence of our humanity as we transition to the digital age.

我们会得到什么？

Like, what are we gonna get?

我们会迎来一个时间偏好更低、资本配置更优、激励更一致的比特币标准，还是会一头扎进21世纪的魏玛共和国2.0版本？

Are we gonna get, like, a Bitcoin standard with lower time preference and better capital allocation, better incentive alignment, or do we just steamroll into Weimar version two for the twenty first century?

还不清楚。

It's unclear.

还不清楚。

It's unclear.

我的意思是，我们可能会因此回归到真正重要的事情上，比如，我不知道，一个白药丸场景：这些AI让我们摆脱了邮件工作。

I mean, we might get a it might allow us to go back to focusing on real things, like, I don't know, a a white pill scenario would be these AIs allow us to get out of the email jobs.

邮件工作消失了，每个人都不得不回到做真正事情的状态。

The email jobs go away, and everyone actually has to go back to doing real things.

过去几十年，一切都变成了金融抽象，越来越少的人从事现实世界中的真实工作，也许这种情况会逆转，因为很多事都可以由人工智能完成，我们都回归到制造业、农业之类的领域，是的。

And this, like, you know, the last few decades where everything was just a financial abstraction and, you know, fewer and fewer people did, like, real things in in the real world, you know, maybe that gets reversed because they're like, a lot of that can just be done by AIs, and we all go back to, you know, manufacturing or farming or yeah.

我不知道。

I don't know.

或者，也许所有这些也会因为机器人技术的快速发展而被自动化，然后我们就都陷入困惑：那我们现在到底该做什么？

Or maybe all of that just also gets automated with robotics because the AI advances so fast that and then we're all like, well, what do we even do now?

实际上可能只有上千个人具备足够的主动性和高智商，真正有价值，而其他所有人则沦为永久的底层阶级。

And there's actually just, like, a thousand people who are, like, high agency and high IQ enough to actually be valuable, and everyone else is just, like, you know Permanent underclass.

对。

Right.

没错。

Exactly.

就像，我不知道。

Like, I don't know.

我真的不知道。

I honestly don't know.

但我上周和贾斯汀·穆恩聊过这个话题，我一直试图在脑子里理清这个问题。

But I feel like I had a conversation with Justin Moon last week about this, and it's something I've been trying to grapple with in my head.

我认为尤其是我们这一代人，我们已经摆脱了这种模式，但仍然存在一些关于世界如何运转、人类如何运作的先入之见。

I think particularly our generation, I I think we broke out of it, but there's kind of, like, preconceived notions of how the world works and how humans operate.

我认为其中之一就是，人群中自然存在一部分高主动性的人，以及另一部分则像被氟化物凝视过一样（被动麻木）。

And I think one of those is that there's just, a natural distribution of people who are high agency and those who have the the fluoride stare, if you will.

我真的不知道。

And I I don't know.

我一直在想，如果我们意识到在这个新时代，高主动性是成功所必需的，有没有办法培养和建立一种高主动性的文化？

I've been trying to think, like, is there a way that you could instill and engender a culture of high agency if we recognize it is what you're going to need to have to be successful in this new age.

好吧。

Okay.

我反复犹豫，我完全能理解，而且我实际上更倾向于认为，拥有这种特质和没有这种特质的人本来就是自然分布的。

I go back and forth, like I can totally and I probably lean actually towards there's just a natural distribution of people who have it and people who don't.

但我很好奇，是否能营造一种类似斯巴达式的文化，让人们意识到必须培养出主动性的能力？

But I'm curious, like, is there like a Spartan like culture you could put out there to convince people that you need to develop the skills to have agency.

我认为，随着技术的进步，如果它真的开始取得实质性进展，人们关于集体主义的讨论也会变得越来越有趣，或许人们会以一种全新的方式来思考集体主义。

I think I think they'll also, you know, be it more and more interesting conversations around collectivism, or I think I think people, like, might start thinking about collectivism a little bit differently as the technology progresses, if it really does truly begin to advance.

在过去大约三十年，甚至五十年里，美国人普遍对集体主义持否定态度，因为那时一切对我们来说都运转得非常好。

And and, you know, I think there is, like, this is like, in the last sort of thirty years or or so or maybe even fifty years, you could say, like, Americans, like, frowned upon collectivism because everything was just working really well for us.

而个人主义、独立和高能动性，恰恰能让你变得富裕。

And, like, being individual being independent and high agency just, like, made you wealthy.

但如果这种情况不再成立，集体主义可能会被重新看待。

And if that stops being the case, then all of a sudden, collectivism might start being viewed differently.

等等，先别急。

Like, hold on a second.

我们需要重新思考：我的群体是谁？我该和谁团结在一起，才能确保我们所有人都受益、保护自己，并把我们的群体放在首位，因为现在独自一人已经行不通了。

Like, we need to all, like, who is my group who I band together with to make sure that, like, we all benefit and we protect ourselves and put our our group first because being a being alone, you know, just doesn't work anymore.

也许我们之所以能够拥有这种个人主义精神，仅仅是因为美国过去运作得太好了。

And maybe, like, the fact that, you know, we were able to be have this ethos at all was just because The US just worked so well.

那么，这种趋势的未来会怎样呢？

And, you know, what's the future of that?

只是一些尚未成型的想法。

Just some unformed thoughts.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

因为毕竟，我近距离亲身经历过，它确实带来了巨大的好处，但仍然不够完美。

Because it's all I mean, I seen it up close and personal, like, it's definitely massively beneficial, but it's still it's still not perfect.

比如，我得时不时拍打一下我的老机器，提醒它：你刚才做错了。

Like, I had to slap my clanker around every once in a while, like, hey, you did that wrong.

你还没达到自主运行的水平。

You're not autonomous yet.

是的。

Yeah.

它们不会学习。

They don't learn.

而且我认为，这些技术要真正改变一切，仍然需要一些重大的突破。

And I I think there's still some major, like, break there's still there's some major breakthroughs before these things are actually changing everything.

还有另一件事让我好奇，比如萨姆·阿尔特曼、达里奥等人对外宣传的这些东西，有多少只是他们在推销自己的理念，试图提升估值，再筹集一百亿美元呢？

Well, that's the other thing I wonder, like, much how much of like what's being put out there by Sam Altman, by Dario, others is just like them pushing their book and like trying to get their valuations up, raise another 100 bill.

没错。

Exactly.

很难说清楚。

It's hard to say.

很难真正确定，因为显然这些技术是革命性的。

It's hard to really because, obviously, these things are revolutionary.

但与此同时，它们显然还缺少某些东西。

But at the same time, there's obviously something missing with them.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，这就像是一个经典的问题：为什么我们需要用吉瓦级别的算力、数百兆瓦的电力，以及互联网上的所有信息来训练这些系统，而人类根本不需要这些？

You know, it's it's like that classical conversation of why does why do we need to train these things with gigawatts of compute or hundreds of mega you know, megawatts of compute and all of the information on the Internet when a human doesn't need any of any of that?

你知道，人类并不需要把互联网上的信息告诉它，也能变得有用。

You know, there there's something like fund a human doesn't need to tell the information in the Internet to be able to be useful.

所以，我们在理解智能构建方面，显然缺少了某些根本性的东西。

So, like, there's something fundamental missing in our understanding of, building intelligence.

真正可能令人害怕的是，如果我们弄明白了这一点，那时才真正变得可怕。

And the real maybe scary thing is if we figure that out, that's when it gets scary.

但在那之前，也许这些技术其实只是有点……我不知道怎么说。

And until then, maybe it's actually just kinda like, I don't know.

这些东西同时既非常聪明，又非常愚蠢。

These things are just really smart but dumb at the same time.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's yeah.

我的意思是，我也觉得围绕这个问题的讨论越来越多了。

I mean, I think there's been more discussion arising around this too.

我的意思是，把智能和意识区分开来。

I mean, the the just separating intelligence and consciousness.

比如，如果你没有意识，你真的能称得上是智能的吗？能学习新事物并产生创造性思维吗？

Like, can you actually be genuinely intelligent in the sense that you can learn new things and have creative thought if you're not conscious?

这些事物有可能拥有意识吗？

And can these things ever be conscious?

我认为

I think

答案可能是，总有一天我们会达到那个阶段，但我也不确定它会在未来几年内发生。

the answer is probably at some point, we can get we'll get there, but I'm also not convinced it's, like, gonna happen in the next few years.

是的。

Yeah.

我不确定，也许我错了。

I'm not convinced it's like I could be wrong.

我其实没有，你知道，五年前我根本不会预料到这些技术今天会这么先进。

I I I don't have, like you know, I wouldn't have predicted how good these things are today five years ago.

所以，我想说的是，我们确实应该考虑这样一个世界：这些技术不断 extrapolating，变得越来越聪明，发展速度也在加快。

So I wanna like, you know, I I do think we should consider a world where extrapolating these things, getting smarter and smarter, and accelerating pace does happen.

但与此同时，从第一性原理的角度来看，我很难理解，仅仅增加能量和算力，如何能解决这些系统根本无法学习的问题。

But at the same time, I just like, from a first principle's perspective, I have a hard time seeing how throwing more energy a compute solves that fundamental problem of these things aren't learning.

这些系统并不能处理新颖的任务。

These things can't aren't, like, aren't handling novel tasks.

而且，每次你给它输入内容时，它都有一个上下文窗口，但它什么都不记得。

And, you know, every time you send it something, like, has a context window, it doesn't remember anything.

对吧？

Right?

这些问题正是他们正在努力解决的。

And those are problems that that they're working on.

问题是，这些难题在近期的未来究竟会如何被解决呢？

The question is, like, how will they actually be solved in any near term future?

我不知道。

I don't know.

是的。

Yeah.

是否存在一个像量子计算机中逻辑量子比特的扩展那样不可逾越的问题？

Is there a problem as insurmountable as scaling logical qubits for quantum computers?

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

是的。

Yeah.

那是一个更大、一直以来都是一个大

That's a bigger been a big

你对整个量子计算争论有什么看法？

What are your thoughts on the whole quantum debate?

你知道，我讨厌处于一种立场，即我的论点是赌人类无法解决某个问题。

You know, I hate I hate being in a position where you're where where an arm my argument is betting against humans figuring something out.

对吧？

Right?

所以，我不喜欢那种坐在那里说量子计算永远不会成功，并且给出理由的人。

So, like, I hate sort of being somebody who sits there and says, quantum computing will never work, and here's why.

我讨厌处于这种立场，因为这种说法是无法被证伪的。

And the problem I hate I hate being in that position because it it's nonfalsifiable.

对吧？

Right?

你永远无法证明，他们不会找到某种解决办法。

You can't you can't ever prove like, you can't prove they won't figure something out.

但与此同时，确实也有一定的道理。

And but at the same time, like, there's there is some truth to it.

这确实是个非常困难的问题。

Like, it's a really hard problem.

我觉得这可能被夸大了，但万一不是呢？

I think it's probably overblown, but, like, also, what if it's not?

对吧？

Right?

这里存在大量的信息不对称。

There's a lot of information asymmetry here.

理解量子计算并不容易。

Like, understanding quantum computing is not easy.

这是一个高度专业化的领域。

It's a highly specialized field.

据我所知，确实正在取得实际进展。

And from what I can tell, there is real progress happening.

我认为，如果比特币之所以伟大，在于我非常有信心它在未来十年、二十年、三十年里仍能有效运行。

And I don't think and and if if the, you know, the the what makes Bitcoin great is that I know I have high confidence that it's gonna be functioning effectively ten, twenty, thirty years into the future.

所以我们总是希望这一点成立。

And so we always want that to be true.

我们总是希望人们相信比特币在许多年后仍能正常运行并保持安全。

We always want people to believe that Bitcoin will always function and be secure many, many years into the future.

因此，正因为如此，我认为我们确实需要关注这个问题。

So because of that, I do think we do need to care about this.

我认为我们确实需要，我们正在做。

I do think we need to we we are.

我的意思是，已经有很多开发工作在投入比特币的后量子签名算法，以及向其过渡可能是什么样子。

I mean, the there is a lot of development effort already going into post quantum signature algorithms for Bitcoin and what transitioning to that could look like.

我认为这是一项重要的工作，应该以保守但带有一些紧迫性的方式进行。

And I think that's important work, and I think it should be done with conservatively, but with some with some urgency.

但我们也不希望忽视那些制造漏洞的东西。

But we we also don't wanna brush something that makes that that creates a vulnerability.

这就是我的看法。

So that's my take.

是的。

That yeah.

我完全同意。

I completely agree.

我认为，整个关于比特币及其与未来潜在量子突破关系的叙事中最令人沮丧的是，人们说你们什么都没做。

And that's I think that's been the most frustrating thing about the whole narrative around Bitcoin, its relationship with potential quantum breakthroughs at some point in the future is that people are saying, you're not doing anything.

开发者会采取行动吗？

Will the devs do something?

他说，这已经是一个持续了十多年的话题了。

He said, well, this has been an ongoing discussion for over a decade.

目前有很多研究正在进行。

There's a lot of research being done.

如果你愿意把你的比特币存入一个嵌套在量子抗性塔叶中的地址，那么市面上已经有一些方案可以合并使用。

There's a bit out there that could potentially be merged if you want to put your Bitcoin in a an address that's nested in a a tap leaf that is quantum resistant.

你可能很快就能做到这一点。

You may be able to do that at some point soon.

但正如你所说，你也不想仓促行事，因为可能会引入某种关键漏洞，从而摧毁整个网络。

But then to your point, I mean, you don't wanna rush it because you could you could introduce some sort of critical vulnerability that destroys the network itself.

但我认为，另一个有趣的视角是你这样的人可以提供的：比如，你的业务在向这种方案过渡时，实际操作会是什么样子？

But I think another interesting perspective that somebody like you could provide, like, what what would the logistics of your business, like, the transition to this for your business look like?

如果我们真的要过渡到这种方案，你需要改变多少不同的东西？

Like, how many different sort of things would you have to change if we were to transition to this?

所以这里有几个组成部分。

So there's a few components here.

一个是冷钱包。

One is cold storage.

另一个是热钱包，日常的大部分交易都会通过它进出。

One is a hot wallet, which is where, you know, most transactions are going in and out of every day.

我们可能会这样做：让我们先完全搁置如何处理那些丢失的币，或者那些没有迁移到新的量子安全签名的币。

What we would probably do is so let let like, let's just put totally aside, how do we handle, like, the lost coins or, you know, the the coins that don't get moved over to a new quantum secure signature.

我们就假设，好吧，我们进行了一次软分叉。

Let's just assume, you know, okay, we have a soft fork.

它引入了一种量子安全签名，比如Sphinx Plus，类似于Jonas Nick正在研究的那种。

It introduces a quantum secure signature, like Sphinx plus, like, something like, you know, Jonas Nick is working on.

我们可能会在确信它非常安全之后，将所有冷钱包中的币迁移到这种新签名上。

What we would probably do is move all cold cold storage coins over to that once it was you know, once we felt really, really confident about it.

我们不会立即这么做，因为假设这个升级会在实际可行的量子计算机出现之前很多年就完成了。

We wouldn't do it, like, right away, because presumably, this would be this upgrade would happen many years before a viable quantum computer actually existed.

所以我们会让它自然发展，进行大量测试，并让它在网络上运行一年左右。

So we would, you know, let it run its course, you know, test do a lot of testing, have it live on the network for hopefully a year or two.

我们将所有冷存储的币转移到这种新的签名方案中。

We move all cold storage coins over to this new new signature scheme.

而对于热钱包，我们可能仍继续使用旧的签名方案，但已经开始构建并准备支持这种新签名方案的基础设施。

And the hot wallet, we probably still keep running with the old signature scheme, but we had started building and getting the you know, getting things in place to to support this new signature scheme.

从钱包用户体验的角度来看，无论是个人自托管还是企业用户，都存在许多待解决的问题，因为目前让钱包操作非常便捷的一些功能可能不再适用。

Now there's a lot of open questions from a wallet experience perspective for both consumer self custody and also businesses where some of the things that are make operating wallets very convenient today might not work.

例如，BIP 32 导出机制。

For example, like, BIP 32 derivation.

对吧？

Right?

通过公钥派生地址的能力，像这类工具很可能在后量子算法中不再存在，因此操作可能会变得稍微繁琐一些。

Being able to derive addresses from a public key, the like, you know, by just those tools probably won't exist for post quantum algorithms, and so things might get a little clunkier.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们可能会看到签名时间变长。

We might see Signing longer.

签名，是的。

Signing yeah.

签名时间更长，或者交易本身可能会变大。

Longer or, like, just the transaction might might be bigger.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，交易费用可能会更高。

The you know, the it might be more expensive.

因此，这将不幸地影响自托管的可用性。

And so it would be a it would be a a hit to self custody usability, unfortunately.

但你知道，如果技术真的朝这个方向发展，我们其实别无选择。

But, you know, if that's if that's where the tech goes, it's we don't really have a choice.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我邀请了乔纳斯和米哈伊尔来讨论。

I had Jonas and Mikhail on.

我们谈到了这个问题。

We talked about this.

这正是我认为很多人在急于推动的事情。

That's like what I think many people are, like, pushing a rush to this.

他们没意识到，我们已经有了一整套标准：部分签名的比特币交易、闪电网络、HTLC等。

Don't realize it's like, hey, we have a bunch of standards, partially signed Bitcoin transactions, Lightning Network, you have the HTLCs.

你不能随便现在升级，就把过去十七年构建起来的这一切都搞砸了。

You have all these things you can't just, like, upgrade now and bork all this stuff that's been built over the course of seventeen years.

我的意思是，

It's like, hey.

你必须战略性地思考，协调比特币网络及其所有个体参与者，共同努力。

You have to think through this strategically, coordinate across the Bitcoin network and all the individual actors within it and put a concerted effort for us.

而在硬件限制方面，这实际上为那些能够制造出高性能硬件钱包的人提供了一个商业机会。

And then on the hardware wall side, like, that's actually a business opportunity for somebody who can build a beefy hardware wallet that is like high power.

它能够及时地完成签名操作。

It can actually sign the signatures in a timely manner.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我也这么认为。

I would think as well.

是的。

Yeah.

这将带来新的机遇。

It will lead to opportunities.

就像你所说的，很难分辨出究竟是经济投机者在炒作量子恐惧，还是真正的技术现实。

Like you like you said, it's hard to suss out sort of the economic opportunist pushing the quantum fear versus the actual technical reality.

我认为归根结底，其实没人知道。

And I think the I think that the at the end of the day, really no one knows.

对吧？

Right?

你根本不知道谷歌实验室里某个家伙的脑子里会冒出什么想法。

You you can't you don't know what's gonna come out of the mind of some guy in the lab at Google.

或者是一些模型。

Or some models.

也许模型们真的学会了如何学习，然后他们会说：嘿，猜猜怎么着？

Maybe the models figure out how to learn actually, and they're like, hey, guess what?

我

I

我认为我们确定知道的一点是，自从比特币诞生以来，我们就知道，从理论上讲，物理定律并不禁止这种情况。

think what we do know for sure and we've known for Bitcoin's lifetime is theoretically, like, the laws of physics do not prohibit this.

这只是一个工程问题。

It is an engineering problem.

它并不需要违背物理定律。

It is not a does not require breaking the laws of physics.

归根结底，密码学令人担忧的地方在于，没有任何物理定律能保证某种密码原语是安全的。

And, you know, at the end of the day, that's the scary thing about cryptography in general is there's no law of physics that says a certain cryptographic primitive is secure.

它更像是概率性的。

It's more like probablost.

我们无法证明。

We haven't been able to prove.

这并不难，但我们就是无法证明。

It's not hard, but we can't prove it is.

所以，你知道，数学令人担忧的地方在于，它并不受物理定律的约束。

So, you know, that's the that's kind of the scary thing about math in general is it's not really constrained by physics.

是的。

Yeah.

刚刚做了2025年的回顾。

Just gave the 2025 retrospective.

我们已经进入2026年快两个月了。

We're almost two months into 2026.

你对什么感到兴奋？

What are you excited about?

你期待什么？

What are you looking forward to?

你目前关注什么？

What are you focused on?

是的。

Yeah.

无论是在River还是在比特币整体上现在。

Whether it's at River or Bitcoin generally right now.

在River，我们专注于这个双重货币愿景。

We're focused at River, we're focused on this dual money vision.

我们希望，从历史上看，人们来这里是购买比特币的。

We wanna you know, historically, we were this place where people came to buy Bitcoin.

我们希望成为人们资金的中心枢纽。

We wanna be the central hub for people's money.

我们想成为你进行银行业务的地方。

We wanna be that place where you bank.

所以，对我们来说，今年的未来就是专注于构建比特币银行业的未来，将美元和比特币整合在一个地方。

And so, you know, the future for us is this year, like, focusing on building the future of Bitcoin banking, having dollars and Bitcoin in one place.

我们不是一家特许银行。

We are not a chartered bank.

我们与一家银行合作，提供美元功能。

We partner with a a bank to provide dollar functionality.

但我确实相信，这就是货币的未来，因此这也是我们的重点。

But, you know, I do believe that this is the future of money, and since so that's our focus.

所以我们正在开发诸如账单支付等功能，让你可以直接从River账户支付账单，让在同一个地方使用比特币和美元变得更加吸引人和便捷。

So we're working on things like bill pay, you know, being able to pay your bills from your River account, making it just more and more compelling and easy to use Bitcoin and dollars in one place.

对于更广泛的比特币领域，我认为量子计算相关话题将成为讨论的重点。

For Bitcoin more broadly, I think the quantum stuff is gonna be a big focus of conversation.

我认为我们有机会向人们展示，比特币是世界上最具安全性与确定性的区块链，我们也在思考长期的潜在风险。

I think that we have a big opportunity there to show people that, again, Bitcoin is the most secure and certain chain in the world, and we think about the long tail risks.

所以我认为，在未来一年里，这个话题将成为主导。

So I do think that conversation will dominate over the over the coming year.

我认为，每当量子实验室发布一篇新的博客文章时，都会重新点燃人们对比特币和量子计算的讨论，而每个月发生这种情况时，我们都能为人们提供更好、更完善的答案。

And I think every time a new blog post comes out from a quantum lab, it'll reflame you know, re re reignite these conversations about Bitcoin and quantum, and I think every month that happens, we'll have better and better answers for people.

是的。

Yeah.

这也很有趣。

That's funny too.

我认为我们昨天至少抓住了一些骗子，因为两周前，我们经历了一次大幅的难度下调。

The I think we caught at least some of the grifters yesterday because two weeks ago, we had a large downward difficulty adjustment.

量子领域有很多人说，看，矿工们已经意识到了量子风险。

There are many people on the quantum side saying, look, the miners recognize the quantum risk.

他们正在断电。

They're unplugging.

他们正在放弃自己的投资。

They're giving up on their investment.

当时美国大部分地区正遭遇一场冬季风暴。

This was happening while a winter storm was was taking over most of The United States.

对。

Right.

ASHRAE要么因为参与需求响应计划而关闭，要么由于从天而降的数英寸厚冰层导致数据中心出现中断。

And ASHRAE was either turning off because they were involved in demand response programs or the the actual data center had some disruptions due to inches of ice falling from the sky.

然后昨天，我们的算力调整了14.7%以上，回到了之前水平。

And then yesterday, we had an upwards adjustment of 14.7% or above where we were before that.

所以，这并不是量子原因造成的。

So, well, it wasn't quantum.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

不幸的是，总有人发表错误的观点并走红，突然间，大家都给你发消息讨论这件事。

And so if there's always someone who's got a bad take that goes viral and all of a sudden, you know, everyone's texting you about it, unfortunately.

是的。

Yeah.

再等两周。

Just wait two weeks.

等两周。

Wait two weeks.

好吧，亚历克斯。

Well, Alex.

能和您叙旧真好，先生。

It's always great catching up, sir.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

很高兴。

Pleasure.

谢谢您邀请我参加。

Thanks for having me on.

很荣幸能在这个比特币网络中称您为朋友和同事。

Honored to call you a friend and a colleague in this Bitcoin network.

我们是同事吗？

Are we colleagues?

网络中的同事？

Colleagues in the network?

我们就这么称呼吗？

Is that what we're gonna call it?

我也不喜欢用‘社区’这个词。

I don't like community either.

我觉得我们不能称之为社区。

I don't think we can call it community.

我们是参与者。

We're actors.

是的

Yeah.

网络中的参与者

Actors in network.

这更像是一个数学术语，我想。

This is more of the mathematical term, I guess.

同事这个词是对的。

Colleague is yeah.

我喜欢同事这个词。

I like I like colleague.

是的

Yeah.

兄弟

Brothers.

是的

Yeah.

兄弟。

Brothers.

兄弟。

Brothers.

兄弟。

Brothers.

并肩作战的兄弟。

Brothers in arms here.

我们会把这些报告的链接放在节目笔记中。

We'll we'll link to these reports in the show notes.

继续深入研究。

Keep crushing the research.

这非常有价值。

It's highly valuable.

我认为能够拥有这项研究作为依据很棒，可以告诉大家：闪电并没有消亡。

And I think it's it's great to be able to have this research to point to, to be like, hey, lightning's not dead.

实际上，它比以往任何时候都更好。

Actually, it's better than ever.

是的。

Yes.

个人整体持有的比特币份额在减少，但企业正与政府和机构一起采用它。

Individuals are losing their share of Bitcoin overall, but businesses are adopting it alongside governments and institutions.

不仅仅是那些人们不喜欢的大机构进入。

It's not just these large actors that people don't like coming in.

还有街角的小商户也在参与。

It's mom and pop main street businesses as well.

我认为这对说服持怀疑态度的人非常有帮助。

I think it's very beneficial for the pitch to people who are skeptical.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

对。

Yeah.

很期待分享更多相关内容。

Excited to share more there.

好的。

Alright.

好吧。

Well, alright.

稍微透露一点，作为结尾的小小悬念。

A little tease a little tease to end it.

我们很快再联系。

We'll we'll we'll catch up again at some point soon.

好的。

Alright.

期待着。

Looking forward.

好的。

Alright.

多多保重，各位奇葩。

Peace a lot, freaks.

好的。

Okay.

感谢您收听本期TFTC节目。

Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC.

如果您坚持听到了这里，我猜您从这期节目中获得了一些价值。

If you've made it this far, I imagine you got some value out of the episode.

如果确实如此，请务必与您的朋友和家人广泛分享。

If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family.

我们正努力让更多人知道这个节目。

We're looking to get the word out there.

此外，无论您是在YouTube、Apple、Spotify上收听，请务必点赞并订阅本节目，如果能在播客平台上留下评分，那将非常有帮助。

Also, wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, make sure you like and subscribe to the show, and if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way.

最后但同样重要的是，如果您想提前一天免费收听这些剧集，请务必下载Fountain播客应用。

Last but not least, if you wanna get these episodes a day early and ad free, make sure you download the Fountain podcasting app.

你可以前往 fountain.fm 查找。

You can go to fountain.fm to find that.

每月5美元，让你提前一天获取所有剧集，无广告，支持节目，带来超值体验。

$5 a month, get you every episode a day early, ad free, helps the show, gives you incredible value.

所以请考虑通过 Fountain 订阅。

So please consider subscribing via Fountain as well.

感谢你的时间，我们下期再见。

Thank you for your time, and until next time.