#723：与马特·科拉洛探讨代理经济的争夺战

我可以在我的服务器上下载它，然后我们就可以使用了。

I can download it on my server and we we can use this.

于是我下载了它，心想：好吧，我们需要给通道充钱。

And so I downloaded it and I was like, okay, we need to we need to fund fund, a channel.

于是我找到了这个Bolt工具，它能让你发送链下比特币到那里，并立即与Phoenix建立通道。

And so I found this bolt this bolt thing, and it'll allow you to, like, send non chain Bitcoin to that, and it'll, basically open up a channel immediately with Phoenix.

所以这里有个Bolt链上通道，把钱发到这里，然后我就能打开通道了。

So just here's the bolt on chain channel, send it here, and then I'll open the channel.

我这么做了，从那以后就一直运行得非常顺畅。

So I did that, and it's been working flawlessly since then.

但另一件事，虽然属于客户端层面，但从商户的需求端来看，真正让我的代理能如此顺畅运作的另一个闪电网络原语是LNURL-Off。

But the other thing, and this is the client side, but talking about demand side from the merchants, the other sort of lightning primitive that exists that has really allowed my agent to do things rather flawlessly is l n URL off.

因为运行的是Phoenix Day，我想：好吧。

And so since it's running Phoenix Day, I like, okay.

你去一些网站测试一下消费吧，比如那些允许你使用Phoenix D服务器上的私钥登录的网站，它找到了LN Markets。

I want you to go test out some spends on some websites, like, some websites that allow you to sign in with the private key on your Phoenix d server using l n URL off, and it found l n markets.

我当时就想，好吧。

And I was like, okay.

它有一个API。

It has an API.

比如，下载API，弄清楚如何登录，然后我们存点钱并进行一笔交易，它五分钟内就完成了。

Like, download the API, figure out how to sign in, all that, and let's deposit some saps and and make a trade, and it did it within five minutes.

所以这实际上只是注入了我的个人偏见和经验。

And so that's actually just injecting my own bias, my own experience.

我觉得，一件可能有益的事情是我们应该尽量让这些网站更容易集成LN URL off，那就是让这些代理能够使用他们的私钥登录。

Like, I think one thing that could be beneficial and we should focus on making it as easy as possible for these websites to integrate as LN URL off is the ability for these agents to sign in with their private key.

我不确定。

And I don't know.

你可能比我更清楚，但如果用户通过LN URL认证并曾经完成过购买，是否可以不给他们弹出验证码之类的？

You you would know better than I, but is there a way to have, an if and function if they sign in via LN URL auth and have made a purchase before, just don't feed them captchas or something like that.

你能轻易地

Could you easily

我的意思是，某种程度上，这回到了我的观点：代理并不太在意具体的API。

I mean, I I think this gets back to, to some extent, my point that agents don't care too much about specific APIs.

所以，无论网站使用LNURL认证，还是要求代理使用某种专有的登录API并用其独特的私钥登录，或者使用完全不同的协议，其实都没关系。

So whether a website uses LNURL auth or whether they require the agent to sign in with some bespoke sign in API and and use their a unique private key for it, whether it's a a totally different protocol, kinda doesn't matter.

比如，你的代理并没有预先编写好针对LNURL认证的代码。

Like, the agent like, your agent didn't have some predefined code for l n u r l auth.

它也没有内置专门处理这一功能的逻辑。

It didn't have already built in logic for that specifically.

它只是说，哦，好的。

It said, oh, okay.

这是我想使用的网站。

Here's the website I wanna use.

它支持LNURL认证。

It supports l n u r l auth.

让我去找一下LNURL认证的规范，然后快速实现一下，当场完成这个操作。

Let me go find the spec for l n u r l auth, and then let me implement against that really quick and just do that on the fly.

所以这是实时完成的。

So it's done on the fly.

它并不关心具体使用什么协议。

It doesn't care what the specific protocol is.

我认为这正是这些智能代理的厉害之处，因为它们相当擅长编写小型软件，只要某个功能简单明了，并能以相对紧凑的方式描述出来，它们就能直接使用。

And I think that's really the cool thing about these agents that because they're fairly competent at writing small scale software, you know, as long as something's straightforward and and can be specified in a a reasonably compact way, they can just use it.

它们根本不在乎。

They don't care.

所以我认为这就是我想说的，没错。

And so I think that's what I I yeah.

我认为这就是为什么这非常强大。

I think that's why think that's really powerful.

关于你提到的商家用它来关闭字幕的问题，我认为在很大程度上，他们根本不需要这样做。

On your point about merchants and using this for turning off captions, you know, I think to a large extent, don't need to.

对吧？

Right?

所有验证码和反欺诈措施的存在，都是因为拒付问题。

The reason for all of the captchas and antifraud and whatever is because of chargebacks.

对吧？

Right?

小型商家经常遇到有人用被盗的信用卡在他们的网站上购物，结果商家最后受害。

Like, small merchants regularly get people who come to their websites and buy stuff with stolen credit cards, and then the merchant ends up getting screwed.

对吧？

Right?

比如，一个常见的骗局（至少以前很流行）是，有人会把商家的产品卖给真正的买家，比如在eBay或亚马逊上，然后当有人从他们那里购买时，他们会用一张被盗的信用卡去商家那里下单，直接把商品发给那个真正想买这件商品的买家——而这个买家其实是从骗子那里买的。

So, like, someone will come to a I think one popular scam, at least a while back, was that people would go sell a merchant's products to legitimate buyers on eBay or Amazon or whatever, And then they would, when someone bought it from them, they would take a stolen credit card, go to the merchant, have it shipped directly to the legitimate buyer who wanted this thing and was buying it from from this scammer on Amazon.

然后商家就会发货。

And then the merchant would ship the good.

真正的买家会很满意。

The legitimate buyer would be happy.

他们会通过亚马逊、eBay或其他平台向骗子付款。

They would pay the scammer via Amazon or eBay or or whatever.

然后，最终，那张被盗信用卡的主人会声称卡片被盗，而这家商户就会遭殃，损失掉这笔钱。

And then, ultimately, the person whose stolen credit card was used would declare their card stolen, and the company, this merchant, would get screwed, and they would lose lose the money.

因此，商家不得不采取各种愚蠢的反欺诈措施，以防止这类骗局破坏他们的利润。

And so that has and so merchants have to do all kinds of stupid antifraud to try to prevent these kinds of scams from ruining their bottom line.

而且，对于那90%以上的交易来说，用户其实并不需要像拒付保护这样的机制，根本没有必要保留这些拒付功能，让商家白白投入资金、时间和精力去应对反欺诈和拒付保护，以保住自己的收入。

And, again, for the 90 whatever percent of purchases where people don't really need that kind of purchase protection that you have with chargebacks, they there's no reason there's no need for these chargebacks to be there and for merchants to be putting in, pouring capital, pouring time, pouring effort into antifraud and chargeback protection to retain their earnings.

撇开Visa每笔交易收取的2.5%手续费不谈，你知道，Visa网络从每笔交易中抽成。

This is I mean, ignore the two, two and a half percent fee that Visa takes for that, you know, the Visa network takes from every transaction.

还有，所有这些商家在反欺诈上投入的人力成本——不仅仅是人力，他们还得雇佣客服人员。

And, also, the amount of human effort tied to this anti fraud stuff that all these merchants have to build and not just human effort, but, like, they have to hire support staff.

这不仅仅是软件工程师的事，他们还得雇佣人员，整合各种验证码系统、反欺诈技术以及机器学习模型来实现反欺诈。

It's not just software engineers, not just, like, they have to hire they have to integrate all this CAPTCHA crap and and anti fraud technology and and ML models to do anti fraud and whatever.

他们还必须雇佣客服人员，与客户沟通，试图辨别谁是骗子。

They also have to hire humans in support to talk to people and try to fish out whether they're a scammer or not.

这对所有小型企业，乃至整个经济来说，都是巨大的负担。

It's a huge drag on all these small businesses and and on the economy generally.

对吧？

Right?

如果我们提供不需要退款保护的选项，他们就可以直接移除所有这些麻烦，所有这些成本就会立刻消失。

And so if we offer options where there isn't chargebacks, they could just remove all this crap, and all of a sudden, all those costs go away.

当然，有些客户可能希望购买时有购物保障，想使用支持退款的支付渠道，这些功能也可以在比特币上实现。

And, sure, some, some customers might want to buy with purchase protection and might wanna use chargeback supporting payment rails, those can be built on Bitcoin too.

对吧？

Right?

你可以让一个仲裁者介入支付流程，在买家确认同意之前不放款，或者处理争议，这些都可以在比特币上实现。

You can have some arbiter who sits in the middle of the payment and doesn't clear the funds until the payment is is not is approved by the buyer and they do dispute resolution, whatever, you can build on a Bitcoin too.

以前就已经有人做过这个了。

It's been built before.

过去对此需求不多，部分原因是比特币支付本身的需求就不大。

There hasn't been a lot of demand for it in part because there just hasn't been a lot of demand for Bitcoin payments.

所以，希望我们如今能改变这一点，增加对比特币支付的需求，那样这些工具或许就会重新出现。

So, hopefully, you know, hopefully, we can shift that now, build more demand for Bitcoin payments, and then those kind of tools might come back.

人们可能会更感兴趣去使用和开发这些功能。

People might be more interested in using them and and building them out.

但确实，商家完全可以去掉多年来积累的这些繁琐东西，直接提供比特币支付。

But, yeah, I mean, merchants could just remove all of this crap that they've built up over the years and just offer payments in Bitcoin.

所以你提到比特币支付在过去的十七年里并没有成功，很多人会指出价格波动，认为作为企业主，以比特币作为记账单位是有风险的。

So you mentioned Bitcoin payments have not, have not won in their first seventeen years, and I think many people would point to price volatility and say using Bitcoin as your unit of account is is risky as a business owner.

针对这一点，你认为为商家提供比特币收款工具的人，多大程度上必须集成法币提现功能，比如自动兑换成美元，或者同时支持稳定币与比特币收款？

So on this point, how imperative do you think it is for people providing these agentic receive tools, Bitcoin receive tools for merchants to include dollar off ramps, like auto conversions to dollars or the ability to receive stablecoin side by side with with Bitcoin.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这对许多商家来说确实很重要，而且有很多支付处理器很乐意接收比特币，并每天或每周一次通过电汇将资金存入你的传统银行账户。

I mean, certainly, it's important for many merchants, and and there are a ton of payment processors that will happily take Bitcoin and deposit money into your traditional bank account via wire once a day or once a week or whatever.

这并不是什么特别新颖的技术。

This is not, like, particularly novel technology.

对于某些商家来说，这将会非常重要。

You know, for some merchants, that's gonna be really important.

对一些商家来说，他们可能乐意接受一些比特币，并实际持有除美元以外的其他资产。

For some merchants, they might be happy to take some Bitcoin and and actually hold some something other than just dollars.

比如，我们看到许多商家对比特币的兴趣已经相当高了。

Like, we've seen pretty good uptake with a lot of merchants just in their desire for Bitcoin.

所以，是的，这确实应该成为一个可选选项。

So, yeah, I mean, that that certainly needs to be an option.

这对许多商家来说都应该是可选的。

It needs to be an option for for many merchants.

并不需要对所有商家都提供这个选项。

It doesn't need to be an option for all merchants.

不是每个人都想要这个。

Not everyone's gonna want that.

但我认为这非常直接明了。

But I think that's pretty straightforward.

现在有很多公司提供这种服务，所以对商家来说这不应该成为问题。

There's a lot of companies that offer that, so that shouldn't be an issue for merchants these days.

它确实带来了一些更多的注册摩擦。

It does have some more onboarding friction.

对吧？

Right?

由于这些平台受到监管，他们必须进行KYC才能完成注册。

They have to do KYC or KYC to onboard for a lot of those platforms because they're regulated.

是的。

Yeah.

而像MoneyDevKit这样更原生的比特币或原生稳定币方案，他们只需安装某个软件包就能完成。

Whereas for something like MoneyDevKit or or something that's more native Bitcoin or native stablecoins, they can just install some software package, and and they're done.

根本不需要真正的注册流程。

There's no real onboarding.

所以，是的，我认为稳定币在这里很有用。

So, yeah, I mean, I think stablecoins are are useful there.

我们只是希望确保它们被用作储蓄部分。

I think we just wanna make sure that they're used as the the savings part.

因此，一旦商家通过更开放的支付渠道收到资金，他们就可以将其兑换成某种稳定币，而稳定币之间存在竞争，因为每个商家可能会根据持有该稳定币所获得的利率等因素，选择自己偏好的稳定币，而这不会影响支付通道。

So once a merchant receives money via a a more open payment rail, they can then swap it into some stablecoin, and and there's there's competition for stablecoins because then, you know, each merchant could have their own stablecoin they prefer based on the interest rate they receive for holding that stablecoin or whatever, and that wouldn't impact the payment rails.

真正的问题在于，当所有支付都通过相同的通道、相同的稳定币、相同的区块链进行时，就会产生一种垄断效应——人们想要切换到新的稳定币时，转换成本会变得无限高，因为整个经济体系必须从使用旧的稳定币转向新的稳定币，这正是垄断效应的来源：最终，这些费用会上涨，我们就会迎来另一个Visa。

It's really when all of the payments flow over the same rails, the same stable coin on the same blockchain that we get this, like, monopolistic effect where switching costs become, you know, infinitely high for people to switch to some new stablecoin because the entire economy has to rotate to using that new one when it was using some old one, and that's where you get this monopolistic effect where, you know, eventually those fees will go up and we'll have another visa.

嘿，怪咖们？

Sup, freaks?

现在，一个比你资金更少的人，正在建立比你更好的比特币头寸。

Right now, someone with less capital than you is building a better Bitcoin position than you are.

他们并不比你聪明。

They're not smarter.

他们也不比你幸运。

They're not luckier.

他们只是以不同的方式应对这次低迷。

They're just using this downturn differently.

少数人会默默做出真正重要的举动。

The small minority will quietly make moves that matter.

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And Unchained wrote a field guide for that small minority.

它名为《衰退期的21个行动》。

It's called 21 moves to make in the downturn.

书中你将学习如何围绕比特币的长期特性调整思维，了解市场低迷时期常见的心理陷阱，掌握实用的积累策略，以及优化储蓄、退休账户和闲置资金的方法。

Inside, you'll learn how to orient your thinking around Bitcoin's long term properties, the common psychological traps that surface during market downturns, practical accumulation strategies, and ways to optimize your savings, retirement accounts, and idle capital.

如果你打算利用这次衰退期，而不是袖手旁观，请前往 unchained.com/tftc 下载。

If you plan to use this downturn instead of watching it pass, go download it at unchained.com/tftc.

网址是 unchained.com/tftc。

That's unchained.com/tftc.

嘿，怪咖们？

Sup, freaks?

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Silent creates everyday Faraday gear that protects your hardware.

我们正在使用比特币。

We're in Bitcoin.

我们有很多硬件需要保护。

We have a lot of hardware that we need to secure.

你的钱包会发出信号，让你容易受到攻击。

Your wallet emits signals that can leave you vulnerable.

你得买点SLNT的装备，把你的硬件放进去。

You wanna pick up SLNT's gear, put your hardware in that.

我这儿就有一个Tap Signer。

I have a tap signer right here.

我用了Silent的卡夹，换掉了我的钱包。

I got the silent cardholder, replaced my wallet.

我之前用的是Ridge Wallet，因为它能防止RFID信号窃取。

I was using Ridge Wallet because it secured against RFID signal jacking.

Silent的卡夹也有同样的功能。

Silent, the cardholder does the same thing.

它更轻薄，放进口袋也方便多了。

It's much sleeker, fits in my pocket much easier.

我还有一个法拉第手机套，可以把硬件钱包放进去。

I also have the Faraday phone sleeve, which you can put a hardware wallet in.

我们实际上也用它来存放家里的钥匙。

We're actually using it for our keys at the house too.

最近发生了好多起抢劫案。

There's been a lot of robberies.

他们有法拉第胸包、法拉第背包。

They have essential Faraday slings, Faraday backpacks.

这是一家比特币公司。

It's a Bitcoin company.

他们采用的是比特币标准。

They're running on a Bitcoin standard.

他们拥有比特币储备。

They have a Bitcoin treasury.

他们通过Strike接受比特币。

They accept Bitcoin via strike.

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So go to slnt.com/tftc to get 15% off anything, or simply just use the code TFTC when shopping at slnt.com.

专利技术，经特种作战部门认证。

Patented technology, special operations approved.

还提供免费配送，快去看看吧。

It has free shipping as well, so go check it out.

在这个交叉领域，你认为目前最迫切需要但尚未存在的最简单应用是什么？

What's the lowest hanging fruit that you wanna see built that doesn't exist right now at this intersection?

我认为关键在于商户推广。

I I think it's really about merchant outreach.

我不了解有任何一个优秀的工具或网站能全面覆盖商户的所有选择。

So it's it's I'm not aware of a good tool of a good site that kind of covers all of the options for merchants.

比如说，我就是一个商户。

Like, you know, I'm a merchant.

我想接受比特币。

I wanna take Bitcoin.

好的。

Okay.

你知道你用的是哪家商店吗？

You know, what store are you using?

如果你用的是Shopify，点击这里，这里列出了所有Shopify的选项。

Are you if you're using Shopify, click here, and here's all your options for Shopify.

如果你用的是自托管的，自托管的是什么？

If you're using your own self hosted what's the self hosted?

如果是W c什么commerce之类的，那么这里列出了所有插件。

W c something commerce, whatever, then you here, here's all the the plugins.

而且，我在意通过本地货币收款，或者在意稳定币，这里就是各种选项。

And, like, I care about receiving money via local currency, or I care about stable coins, and, like, here's here's the options.

我觉得如果有人能做出这样一个平台就好了，让商家能有一个更简单的入口，直接告诉他们该去哪里。

And I think it would be great if someone built that out so that there is a more easy place to point merchants to to say, here's where you need to go.

在那之后，一旦这个系统存在了，就会很清楚哪些地方还存在缺口。

And then on top of that, once that exists, I think it'll be really clear what what holds remains.

比如说，会有一些类别是完全没有选择的。

So, like, you know, there will be there'll be categories where there's no option.

对吧？

Right?

你会说，我正在使用某个特定的电商平台，我希望收款能用比特币，然后我想把比特币兑换成USDT。

It'll be, you know, I'm using this particular commerce platform, and I want payments via you know, I want my payments to come in in Bitcoin, and then I wanna swap to, you know, USDT.

那么结果就是，对你来说根本没有这个选项。

And it'll be well, there's there's no option for you.

对你来说，没有现成的内置方案。

There's no prebuilt option for you.

但其实，所有这些组件可能都已经存在了，可能也有某个插件可以接收比特币。

And there, again, like, all of the pieces probably exist, and there's probably some plug in for that where they could take Bitcoin.

当然，USDT和比特币与USDT之间的兑换服务是有的，但就是没有一个整合好的插件。

And then there's certainly USDT and, like, Bitcoin and USDT swap services, but there's not a cohesive plug in.

我认为，这就是智能代理可以完全构建的地方，因为那些大型基础模块已经存在，只是需要将它们整合成一个针对特定电商解决方案的统一平台和插件。

And then I think that is where an agent can totally build that, right, where there's already the the big building blocks already exist, but they need to be put together into some cohesive platform and plug in for this particular commerce solution.

智能代理完全可以构建这个，有人完全可以在一个周六坐下来，说：‘这个功能缺失了。’

An agent can absolutely build that, and someone can just sit down on a Saturday and say, you know, I this is missing.

我之前和一些商家聊过，他们想要这个功能，但这样的工具根本不存在。

I was talking to some merchant who wanted it, and this this tool doesn't exist.

让我花上三四个小时，用Claude或者其他工具，让它帮我把这个东西构建出来。

Let me just spend, you know, three or four hours with Claude or or or whatever and have it go build this.

我认为，如果我们希望比特币社区发展壮大，真正成为我们理想中的那种货币，我们就必须达到这个阶段。

And I think that's where we as a Bitcoin community need to get to if we want to to grow and and really become the kind of currency that I think we wanna be.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们必须确保那个教育网站经过AEO优化，这样智能代理在做研究时，就能快速找到并理解其中的内容。

We gotta make sure that that that educational website is AEO optimized so that the agents, if they're doing research, they can find it quickly and understand what's going on.

是的。

Yeah.

这件事发生得如此之快，真是令人着迷。

It's it's so fascinating how fast this happened.

这正是我唯一的问题。

That's like the one question I have.

你会考虑Visa、Stripe、Coinbase以及所有这些竞争性的智能支付公司背后的巨额资本吗？它们各自都有利益诉求和主观看法，对这件事该如何发展有着不同的立场。

Would you consider all the capital behind Visa, Stripe, Coinbase, all these competing agentic payments companies with their own vested interest and perspectives and subjective views on on how this should play out.

这确实看起来有点令人望而生畏。

It does seem a bit daunting.

但我认为你的观点和我的观点是：这些工具基本上将执行此事的成本压缩到了接近于零，让你能够与之竞争。

But I think your point and my point would be is, like, the tools basically collapse the the cost to do this to near zero so you can compete.

这完全正确。

That's totally true.

而且，它们都在忙于相互竞争，因为都想夺得王冠。

And also, all of them are busy competing because they all wanna take the crown.

对吧？

Right?

他们都想赢。

They all wanna win.

谷歌、OpenAI、Stripe、Coinbase以及所有人并不是朝着同一个方向努力。

It's not like Google and OpenAI and Stripe and Coinbase and and everyone are pulling in the same direction.

不是的。

No.

他们都在试图竞争。

They're all trying to compete.

他们都想推出自己的解决方案。

They're all trying to have their own solution when.

我认为这给我们带来了机会。

And I think that really gives us an opportunity.

而且，我觉得这件事进展得很快，因此在未来一年内，我们很有可能看到其中一两个解决方案获得大量商户采用，虽然不一定只有一个赢家。

And, I mean, I I think there's it it is moving fast, and so there's a good chance that we start to see some kind of not necessarily winner, but but a lot of merchant adoption in one or two of these solutions over the next year.

所以我认为，比特币社区也需要加快步伐。

And so I think, you know, Bitcoiners need to also move fast.

我们需要作为一个社区，尽快使用这些工具、开发这些工具，并与商家沟通，让他们加入，赶在其他人之前行动，因为只有快速推进，我们才能超越那些也在拼命追赶的公司。

Like, we need to, as a community, be be using these tools and building these tools and and talking to merchants and and getting them onboarded before anyone else does because it's only that it's only by by doing it quickly and moving fast that we can beat these companies that are trying to move as fast as they can.

好的。

Alright.

让我们点名批评一些人，依你看，谁现在行动太慢，做得不够？

Let's call some people out who who, in your mind, is moving too slow, is not doing enough right now.

谁还能做更多来购买？

Who who can be doing more to purchase

我认为，我们有一群对比特币感兴趣、每周六愿意花几个小时了解比特币的人，他们也可以用来体验比特币和这些工具。

I think it's I think it's you know, we have an army of people who are interested in Bitcoin and have a few hours to spare to learn about Bitcoin on a Saturday that they could also be used using to play with Bitcoin and play with these tools.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得，光说‘所有开发者或全职从事比特币工作的人’必须做这些是不够的。

I think, you know, just saying, like, oh, all the developers or all the people who work full time on Bitcoin need to do this.

是的，他们应该这么做。

Like, yeah, they should.

没错。

It's true.

而且我认为我们会继续看到开发者们完善这些工具，也希望在商家端也能有更多关注和投入。

And and I think we'll continue to see developers build out these tools, and and hopefully, you know, I hope also on the on the merchant side and focus on that side.

但我们也知道，单靠我们自己是做不到的。

But, also, you know, we're not gonna be able to do this alone.

所有全职从事比特币工作的人，根本无法完成我们需要的商家拓展力度。

Like, all the the the full set of people who work full time, have a full time job working on Bitcoin is not gonna do the level of merchant outreach we need.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们需要普通比特币用户行动起来，比如这周我打算去和一两个商家聊聊，我已经设置好了我的代理工具。

So there's like, we need we we need the average Bitcoiner to be, you know, saying, this week, I'm gonna talk to to one or two merchants, and I'm I've got my agent set up.

我用的是Cali的Clawy服务，或者我有一台旧的Linux笔记本，上面装了个代理，又或者用Open Claw，然后给它配了个钱包。

I use, you know, Cali's Clawy service or or I I got an old Linux laptop and I put a an agent on there or whatever, Open Claw, and I gave it a wallet.

现在我只想让它帮我购买每月的肌酸订阅。

And now I want it to just go buy my monthly creatine subscription.

所以就让它去办吧。

And so just make that happen.

比如，去联系你认识的不同商家，或者让你的代理去做——好处是你现在不用再亲自做这么多事了。

Like, go reach out to to the different merchants that you have or or have your agent great thing is you don't have to do a lot of this stuff anymore.

你只要让代理去处理就行。

You just ask your agent to do it.

你知道的。

You know?

给它访问邮箱的权限，然后让它给十个不同的商家发邮件，说：嘿。

Give it access to an email account and then have it send a bunch of emails to to 10 different merchants and say, like, hey.

我想做这件事，我不想再操心买这个东西了。

You know, I I I wanna I wanna do this, and I I don't wanna have to think about buying this anymore.

我不想再管理一个可能太快或太慢的自动订阅。

I don't wanna have to manage an auto subscription that may get too fast or too slow.

我只想能给我的代理发条消息，说嘿。

I just wanna be able to text my agent and say, hey.

嘿。

Hey.

去给我买点这个肌酸或者其他东西吧。

Go buy me this this creatine or whatever.

我觉得每个人稍微做一点，我们就都赢了。

And I think just everybody does a little bit, and we win.

说到代理做事情这一点，我们之前稍微提过，但我认为有必要彻底说清楚。

Well, to that point about the agents just doing things, we've touched on it a bit here, but I think it's important to really nail it down.

你觉得对于这个领域的钱包开发者来说，完善的文档和开放的API有多重要，以便这些代理能轻松发现并用于网页消费？

Like, how important do you think robust documentation and and open API is for wallet builders in the space to make it easily discoverable for these agents who are looking to spend on on the web.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

我的意思是，关键在于，这些代理本质上是大语言模型，并不擅长处理大量细微的文档。

I mean, the big thing like, agents are are these LLMs aren't necessarily great with tons of subtle documentation.

就像你提到的，直接使用 LDK。

Like, you mentioned, like, trying to use LDK directly.

是的。

Like, yeah.

我的意思是，代理很难直接使用 LDK 并在相对简单的环境中自行构建自己的闪电网络节点。

I mean, an agent's not gonna do great with directly using LDK and building its own Lightning node using that software in kind of an easy environment.

对吧？

Right?

他们更希望使用 PhoenixD，或者 Cashew 钱包、Money Dev Kit、Albie 之类的工具，这些工具只需一份简单的文档，说明如何通过一条命令安装钱包。

They want to use PhoenixD or, you know, a Cashew wallet or Money Dev Kit or Albie or whatever, where it's just, you know, here's one page document that explains, like, install the install the wallet by this command.

这条命令可以生成发票。

This command gives you an invoice.

这条命令可以查看余额，这条命令可以列出之前的交易记录。

This command checks your balance, and this command lists your previous transactions.

对吧？

Right?

他们想要的是简单、直接、文档清晰明了的东西。

They want something simple and straightforward and well documented and clear.

而且好的一点是，我是说，你用英语写这些内容。

And the good thing is, I mean, like, you're writing that in English.

对吧？

Right?

开发者们其实也想要这样的东西。

It's not like developers also want that.

对吧？

Right?

为代理编写这些东西其实并没有那么新颖。

It's not like this isn't really that novel, like writing things for agents.

其实这和你本来就要写的东西完全一样。

And it's just it's really all the same things you were gonna write to begin with.

所以，没错，拥有这些简单、直接且易懂的 API 真的能让它们顺利运行。

And so but, yeah, having these these simple and straightforward and understandable APIs really just lets them run.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我持乐观态度。

I'm bullish.

我认为商户推广将是至关重要的。

I think I think the merchant outreach is is gonna be imperative.

我昨晚发了这条推文，但我们家正在做电路改造，和施工的电工聊天时，我提到今天得付定金。

And I I I tweeted this out last night, but we're getting some electrical work done in our house and was talking to the electrician who's doing the work and I gotta pay the deposit today.

我就随口说了一句：嘿，如果你愿意接受比特币作为定金，我们可以安排。

And I just threw it out there like, hey, if you wanna take the deposit in Bitcoin, we can make that happen.

他昨晚给我们发了短信。

And he texted us last night.

他说：你知道吗？

Was like, you know what?

我决定接受比特币支付。

I am gonna take it in Bitcoin.

这显然是线下的情况。

Obviously this was meat space.

那是一种非常手工化的生意。

That's like a very manual business.

我想我要表达的是，随着这些足够胜任、能完成大量工作的智能代理的出现，人们正逐渐认识到一个更大的机遇：你可以轻松地帮助那些通常是家族经营、目前仍高度依赖手工操作的小型企业，为它们搭建网站和社交媒体存在感，而这一切都变得轻而易举。

And I think where I'm going with this is I I think one of the larger opportunities that people are recognizing with the emergence of these agents that are that are competent enough to get a lot of work done, particularly in the realm of software engineering is that you can go and basically help these small to medium sized businesses that are typically family owned and very manual at this point and help them build a website and a a social presence rather trivially with these toys.

如果你是一个比特币支持者，又恰好对人工智能的浪潮有所察觉，并意识到当下正在发生的深刻变革，那么当你去帮助这些小企业建立网络存在时，一个简单而自然的想法就是：顺便为它们提供开箱即用的比特币支付功能。

And I think if you're a Bitcoiner is is it caught the AI bug and recognizes the profound nature of what's happening right now, and this is one of your your ideas is just give them out of the box Bitcoin payments as well if you're gonna go and help all these small businesses build a presence on the Internet.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Totally.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我说，实体空间也很重要。

And I mean, look, a mean space also matters.

对吧？

Right?

Square集成比特币支付，意味着美国数百万商家（除了纽约）都可以使用。

The the Square integrating Bitcoin payments means for some million or so merchants in The United States, except New York.

谢谢，纽约。

Thanks, York.

谢谢，BitLicense。

Thanks, BitLicense.

他们只需要进入设置，更改一个选项，就能为部分交易提供比特币支付。当然，比特币支付的占比还不大，但至少不再是零了，而且突然间他们就不用支付任何手续费了。

All they have to do is is go in settings and change one setting, and then all of a sudden they for some subset of their payments, and sure, Bitcoin payments aren't huge, but but they're they're not zero anymore, then suddenly they get no fees.

对吧？

Right?

所以，与其收取百分之二点五或 whatever 的手续费，你现在完全不用付任何费用。

So instead of fees is two and a half or whatever percent fee, you get nothing.

对吧？

Right?

因此，这对他们的收入来说是一大块份额。

And so they they that's a really huge portion of their revenue.

我认为，即使只是针对线下商户、咖啡店等进行推广，也能为这些公司带来巨大改变，让比特币支付在现实世界中从零起步。

And I think just even doing in person merchant outreach for in person payments and coffee shops and whatever can make a huge difference for some of these for some of these companies and to get Bitcoin payments in meatspace off zero as well.

我认为这同样非常重要，比特币社区应该为此付出努力。

And I think that's that's also really important, and the Bitcoin community should be working hard on that.

而且，比如比特币商户社区，是的。

And there's, like, the Bitcoin merchant commune yeah.

如果你在谷歌搜索‘比特币商户社区’，他们会有一个不错的网站，主要面向线下商户和 Square 商户，解释为什么他们应该开启这个功能、为什么应该向顾客提供它，当然，比特币本身也需要被使用。

If you Google Bitcoin merchant community, they have a good website that kind of targets more meat space and Square merchants and explains why they should turn the feature on and why they should offer it to their customers, and then Bitcoin is off obviously also need to be using it.

太棒了，现在 Cash App 已经支持无需拥有比特币即可用比特币付款。

The great day Cash App now, you can pay with Bitcoin without having any Bitcoin.

你只需要在Cash App余额里有美元，它就会自动购买比特币，并在同一次交易中全部发送出去。

So you just have to have dollars in your Cash App balance, and it'll automatically buy Bitcoin and then send it all in the same transaction.

你不需要通知IRA。

You don't have to tell the IRA.

你不应该向IRS申报这件事。

You're not supposed to tell the IRS about it.

这没有任何税务影响。

There's no there's no tax implications.

什么都没有。

There's no nothing.

即使你已经在其他钱包里持有一堆比特币，也可以安装Cash App，存入一些美元，然后用它来消费比特币，推动比特币经济的发展，同时自动补充你的比特币余额。

So even if you have a stack of Bitcoin in another wallet, you know, install Cash App, put some dollars in there, and then go use it to spend Bitcoin and and make the Bitcoin economy happen more, and then you're automatically replenishing.

你并不是在出售你的比特币持仓。

You know, you're not you're not selling your stack.

对吧？

Right?

所以你不再需要卖出你的比特币持仓来推动比特币经济的发展。

So you don't have to sell your sell your stack anymore to encourage the Bitcoin economy to grow.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，以上所有这些，我认为比特币社区了不起的地方就在于，有这么多不同的人在互补的方向上推动发展，我之前也说过几次，但我觉得这真的很好。

So I I all of the above, you know, I think this is the the great thing about the Bitcoin community is that there's so many different people pushing in complementary directions, and I I've said this a few times, but but I think that's really great.

其中一部分会是面对面支付，但我认为我们还拥有比特币历史上真正独特的机遇——代理支付。

And and part of that will be in person payments, but I think we have this opportunity, this genuinely unique opportunity in Bitcoin's history with agentic payments as well.

是的。

Yeah.

还有一件事我们没提到，但我认为应该强调一下作为比较优势。

And something we didn't touch on that I think we should highlight as a comparative advantage.

我认为，虽然我们已经多次提及，但这些不同支付机制的互操作性——无论是eCash、比特币、Liquid上的稳定币、闪电网络，当然还有链上交易——都非常关键。

I think, again, we've alluded to it quite a bit, but I think the interoperable nature of all these different payment mechanisms that exist, whether it's eCash, Bitcoin, stablecoins on liquid, Lightning, obviously, on chain.

我们有Spark，有Arc，但我们忘了提到Arcade。

We have Spark out there, Arc, and we forgot to mention Arcade.

他们推出了一个面向比特币的稳定币和代理支付通道。

They launched some stablecoin to Bitcoin, agentic payment rail as well.

我认为，与你所描述的谷歌、Stripe、Visa、Coinbase、Circle等竞争对手相比，它们之间并不存在互操作性，或者即使有，也相当糟糕。

And I think comparing it to the the competition that you described between Google, Stripe, Visa, Coinbase, Circle, whoever it may be, The interoperability does not exist or if it does exist, it's a bit janky.

但在比特币及其各种子协议之间，由于闪电网络的存在，支付体验却非常顺畅。

But within Bitcoin and the disparate sub protocols that the people are building on, it's rather seamless because of Lightning Network.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的很惊人，因为即使在加密货币领域，这也是独一无二的。

And this is I mean, it's it's the wild thing is that this is actually unique even in crypto.

你看，即使是以太坊生态系统，尽管有这么多二层网络，它们之间也不兼容。

I mean, you look at, like, even the Ethereum ecosystem with all their l twos, the things aren't compatible.

你可以通过桥接在它们之间转账，但你必须知道，你只是扫描一个二维码然后转账，结果钱却莫名其妙地消失了，因为对方以为钱会到一条链上，而你实际上是在另一条链上。

You there are bridges you can send between them, but you have to know to the the like, you just scan a QR code, and then you send money, and all of a sudden, it went into a black hole because they were expecting it on one chain, and you're actually on some other chain.

这太糟糕了。

It's it's awful.

这实际上非常麻烦，而许多稳定币生态系统正是基于这一点构建的。

It's, like, actually really painful, and that's what the stablecoin ecosystem is built on in many cases.

比如，Base 上的 USDC 和以太坊上的 USDC 是两种不同的代币。

And, like, USDC on base is a different token from USDC on Ethereum.

如果你不小心把 Base 上的 USDC 发给了一个期待以太坊上 USDC 的人，钱就会直接消失，你得费劲去查清楚到底发生了什么。

And if you accidentally send the base one to someone and they're expecting it on Ethereum, all of a sudden, the money went into a black hole and, like, now you have to figure out what happened.

这种架构导致了相当严重的用户体验问题。

It's there's actually some really substantial user experience challenges as a result of that architecture.

所以，是的，我认为我们仍需不断努力，确保比特币生态中的所有钱包和用户都能使用同一种语言，即使他们可以选择使用自己生态内的原生方案，也能回退到闪电网络。

And so, yeah, I mean, the I think there's always more work to be done on making sure everyone in Bitcoin, all the wallets, and everybody speaks the same language and can can fall back to Lightning even if they might have an option to to use something more native within their their ecosystem.

但确实，这非常重要，因为它真正实现了无缝的用户体验。我们看到，不知为何，大家总喜欢各自打造一个小生态，然后在里面接入稳定币，接着用这些稳定币在 Stake 和 Shake 上消费。

But, yeah, it's it's it's huge because it it really enables the seamless user experience, and and we've seen, you know, people show up and and and for some reason, there's this trend of everyone builds their own little ecosystem, and then they get stablecoins in it, and then they go buy with their stablecoin at stake and shake.

然后他们会在 Twitter 或 X 上发帖，炫耀自己能用稳定币在 Stake 和 Shake 上购物有多棒。

And then they post on Twitter about how or on X about how how great it is that they can buy with their stablecoin at stake and shake.

但实际上，这一切只是通过闪电网络进行支付，只是背后做了一次兑换而已。

And and all it's doing is buying with Lightning, and it's just doing a swap to buy with Lightning.

因此，这确实是实现比特币支付未来的关键部分，即闪电网络，以及所有这些不同生态系统都能接入闪电网络并实现无缝支付的事实。

And so, yeah, that's that is a huge part of enabling this future of Bitcoin payments is is Lightning and the fact that all of these different ecosystems can just plug into Lightning and get seamless payments.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，在我们当前所处的叙事竞争中，这一点被严重低估了，而且未来只会变得更加重要。

I think it's very underappreciated in terms of the narrative battle that we're currently in and will only increase from here.

我认为，将比特币支付通道作为代理支付集成的价值主张加以强调，目前在这场讨论中并未得到足够的重视。

I think highlighting that as a value prop for integrating sort of Bitcoin rails for your agentic payments is is not giving enough enough credence in this discussion right now.

这确实是一个重要的点。

It is something Yeah.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

我们已经。

We have.

尤其是那些稳定币相关的人。

And especially the stablecoin people.

比如，别管你那区块链和以太坊L2的烂摊子。

Like, ignore the the blockchain and Ethereum l two mess that you have.

但除此之外，你用的是哪个稳定币？

But, also, on top of that, you have which stablecoin?

不只是说好的。

Like, not only okay.

有USDC，但还有USDT。

There's USDC, but there's also USDT.

现在还有GUSD，是某种新的稳定币。

There's now g USD, which is some new one.

还有PayPal USD。

There's PayPal USD.

之前有传言说Stripe，哦，不是。

There was some rumor that Stripe or oh, no.

Facebook现在也要推出新的稳定币，所以会有Facebook USD。

Facebook's now gonna create new ones, so there's gonna be Facebook USD.

所以，突然之间，你在兼容性上也不行了。

So all of a sudden, you don't have compatibility there either.

像稳定币啊，稳定币支付将会胜出。

Like, stablecoins oh, stablecoin payments are gonna win.

那么是哪个稳定币呢？

Well, which stablecoin?

这并不是一个单一的系统。

That's not a single system.

你不能指着说，你知道的，商家只会接受稳定币。

You can't point and say that's you know, merchants are just gonna accept stablecoins.

不。

No.

他们只会接受一两种稳定币，而付款方也只会使用一种稳定币。

They're gonna accept a stablecoin or two, and payers are only going to have a stablecoin.

他们不可能把所有稳定币都作为选项。

They're not gonna have all of the stablecoins as an option.

所以这也不是一个真正的答案。

So that's not really an answer either.

而且，没错，确实有跨链桥之类的东西，但当你面对四五十种不同的稳定币，且它们分布在十到二十条不同的区块链上时，这种复杂性根本无法构建一个统一的系统。

And and, sure, there's bridges and whatever, but when you have 40 or 50 different stablecoins and they're on 10 or 20 different blockchains, there's a lot of complexity there, that doesn't actually build a cohesive system either.

我认为这正是比特币如此强大的原因。

And I think that's that is what's so powerful about Bitcoin.

你说得对。

And you're right.

我认为当我们跟人们讨论代理支付将走向何方时，有必要强调这一点。

I think we need to highlight that when we talk to people about, well, where where agentic payments gonna go.

其实就是，有比特币这个东西，围绕它有各种不同的平台，而你只需用比特币进行结算。

It's like, well, there's this Bitcoin thing that has all of these different platforms around it, and you just settle in Bitcoin.

然后，无论你想使用哪个平台，都可以用稳定币来操作——比如你想要在Base链上使用USDC，也可以做到，然后把它兑换成比特币并完成支付。

And then whatever platform you wanted to use, you can use with a stable coin on on you know, even if you want USDC on base, you can get that, and you can swap that to Bitcoin and and make that payment.

因此，这极大地简化了流程，使其成为一个开放的支付网络，不同于某些稳定币所构建的封闭支付系统。

And so that really simplifies it and makes it this this open payment network unlike some of the closed payment networks from from stablecoins.

是的

Yeah.

我看好。

I'm bullish.

我认为我们能赢。

I think we can win this.

这需要一些努力。

It's just gonna take some effort.

是的

Yeah.

所以最后它是

So last It's

这需要很多努力。

gonna take a lot of effort.

但最后，我们完全可以赢。

But Last We can totally win this.

在进入最后一个话题之前，我想先谈谈这个特定的智能支付主题，即关于Clarity法案和BRCA的最新进展。

Last in this particular agentic payments topic before we get to the last topic I wanna talk talk about, which is an update on Clarity Act and BRCA.

听我讲话的人，比如马特，应该能理解我的意思，但我以前从未做过这件事。

People listening to this, like Matt, picking up what you're putting down, but I've never done this before.

我能做些什么呢？

What what can I do?

这在过去一个月里是我经常问的问题，但我想再特别强调一下，让大家清楚。

Like and this has been a common question I've asked over the last month, but just to really drill it home for people.

这个AI技术到底有多强？

Like, how good is this AI tech?

任何坐在家里听我讲话的人，哪怕从未写过一行代码，也从未接触过开发环境或文本编辑器。

Like, anybody sitting there at home listening to this who has never programmed a line of code in their life, never even hopped into a development environment or a text editor.

他们该如何建立起信心去完成呢？

Like, how can they develop the confidence to end?

你会对他们说什么，来让他们有信心去尝试这些技术？

Or what would you say to them to give them the confidence to go try this stuff out?

是的

Yeah.

或者即使你三个月前试过AI，那也和仅仅三个月前的体验完全不同了。

Or even if you tried AI stuff three months ago, like, it really is a totally different ballgame from just three months ago.

我知道很多人习惯使用OpenAI或谷歌的免费模型，习惯了它们总是胡编乱造。

And, you know, I know a lot of people are used to to often the free models from OpenAI or from Google, and they're used to those hallucinating all over the place.

即使最昂贵的付费模型，也照样到处胡编乱造。

Even the most expensive paid models still hallucinate all over the place.

用它们做人们常做的那些事情时，存在很多问题，而人们却说，是的。

And there are lots of problems for using them in a lot of the ways that people use them all the time, and they're like, yeah.

这些玩意儿真差劲。

These kinda suck.

它们只是马屁精。

They're they're sycophants.

它们会胡编乱造。

They hallucinate.

现在你告诉我，它们在编程方面很厉害。

And now you're telling me they're great at coding.

我其实不太相信你。

I don't really believe you.

每个人都在告诉我，它们在提供各种信息方面很厉害，但当我实际尝试一些案例时，它们真的差劲，还给我一堆垃圾。

Like, everyone's been telling me they're great at at giving all this information, but when I try them for some con for some some cases, they really suck, and they they give me garbage.

现在你又告诉我，大家都说它们在软件工程方面很厉害。

And now you're telling me that everyone's telling me they're great at software engineering.

我不太相信你，因为我在我试过的案例中根本没看到这一点。

I don't really believe you because I don't see it on the cases that I've tried.

事实上，它们在软件工程方面的表现远优于其他大多数任务。

And the reality is they're much better at software engineering than most other tasks.

你知道，复杂的大型软件项目，也许还不能完全独立完成，但对于网站、应用程序，以及利用大型模块构建一个连贯的产品，它们确实非常擅长，而且仅通过对话就能做到。

You know, large complicated software projects, okay, maybe not totally doing it on their own, but for stuff like websites, apps, taking larger building blocks and building a cohesive product, they are really good at, and they really can do it just from talking to them.

所以是的。

And so yeah.

我的意思是，试试看。

I mean, try it.

你确实得花点钱。

You do have to fork over some cash.

你想用最新的模型。

You want the the latest models.

你不应该用那些免费的选项。

You don't wanna be using some of the free options.

它们还不错，但比最新的模型落后了一年。

They're they're good, but they're a year behind the latest models.

而且，最新的模型也只是在过去几个月才真正变强了。

And, again, the latest models only really got good in the last few months.

所以，花点钱，买最新的模型，用最新的Claude、最新的OpenAI，随便哪个，然后用你的Clawy订阅，那是Kalle的自托管代理服务，或者试试Money Dev Kits。

So, you know, fork over some cash, get the latest models, use the latest Claude, the latest OpenAI, whatever, and then, yeah, use it use it with your your Clawy subscription, which is Kalle's self hosted agent service, or try Money Dev Kits.

他们称之为OriBot，你可以直接添加到你的群聊中。

OriBot is what they call it, which you can just add to your group chat.

这并不难。

It's not hard.

我觉得那个是免费的，而且可能不会总是使用最新模型。

I think that one is free and might not always use the latest models.

你得研究一下怎么切换。

You have to look into to how to switch it over.

但你知道的，就试试吧。

But but, you know, just try it.

比如，从简单的东西开始。

Like, start with something simple.

从跟你相关的东西开始。

Start with something that's applicable to you.

你知道的，如果你有家里的蜡烛生意、珠宝生意之类的，就连接上OriBot，说嘿。

You know, I you know, if you have your your at home candle business or jewelry business or whatever, you know, just hook up OriBot and say, hey.

我有个生意。

I've got this business.

我有这些商品。

I've got these items.

把它们放到网站上。

Put it up on a website.

进行集成。

Integrate.

你知道，做钱的开发最容易了。

You know, money dev gets the easiest.

如果你只是想接受比特币，不一定非得用美元。

If you just want to if you wanna accept Bitcoin, you don't need dollars necessarily.

所以如果你在听这个，你很可能是个比特币爱好者。

So if you're listening to this listening to this, you're probably a Bitcoiner.

也许你只想要比特币，不一定非得马上换成美元。

Maybe you just want on Bitcoin, you don't necessarily need to swap it to dollars right away.

只需让它集成MoneyDevKit，围绕MoneyDevKit建个商店，我几乎可以保证它能运行。

Just ask it to integrate MoneyDevKit, build a store around MoneyDevKit, and I can almost guarantee you it will work.

好的。

Okay.

也许不是第一枪，但你就告诉它去修复问题吧。

Maybe not exactly the first shot, but, you know, just tell it to fix stuff.

比如，注意到它出问题了，告诉它哪里不对，三四个小时后，你就能拥有一个能接收比特币支付的完整网站。

Like, notice that it's broken, tell it what's wrong, and in three or four hours, you will have a fully functioning website that can take Bitcoin payments.

它现在真的有这么好。

It it really is that good now.

所以，就去做吧。

So so just just do it.

就去做吧。

Just do it.

就去做吧。

Just do it.

我们由耐克赞助，谢谢你们把这句口号加进来了。

We're we're sponsored by Nike, so thank you for getting that that catchphrase in.

那个还在吗？

Is that still there?

我以为他们已经不用了。

I thought they stopped using that.

真的吗？

Did they?

我会觉得

I'd be

如果他们还在用，我会很惊讶。

shocked if they did.

Just do it.

Just do it.

好的。

Alright.

不过，我们来总结一下，Clarity Act。

Wrapping up here though, Clarity Act.

我有点困惑。

I'm confused.

我只在幕后和凯尔交谈。

I'm talking with Kyle only behind the scenes.

看起来银行、Coinbase、银行游说团体和加密货币游说团体之间的威胁姿态正在加速，而在特朗普政府内部，斯科特·贝森和特朗普本人明确表示：伙计们，赶紧把这事办了。

It seems like the saber rattling between the banks and Coinbase and the banking lobby and crypto lobby is hitting ahead, and and we see within the Trump administration, Scott Besson, Trump himself really saying, hey, guys, let's get this done.

我们必须把这事办成。

We need to get this done.

让我们把它顺利推进通过。

Let's get it across the line.

我认为，很多人——不是所有人，但很多人——都在关注贝森和特朗普的表态，认为：太好了，我们就要拿到清晰法案了。

I think everybody, not everybody, but a lot of people are looking at the posturing from Besson and Trump specifically and saying, yay, we're gonna get the clarity act.

这会是好事。

This will be good.

我不清楚，关于自托管比特币以及自由开源软件开发者编写代码时不必担心被关进监狱的条款，是否仍然存在于《凯伦法案》中。

It's unclear to me whether or not the the language about self custodial Bitcoin and the ability for, free and open source software developers to write code without fearing getting thrown in a cage is still in the Karen Act.

我知道你一直站在推动BRCA并将其纳入清晰法案的最前沿，但我不清楚相关措辞是否仍在草案中，或者能否进入最终版本。

I know you've been on the tip of the spear of of advocating for BRCA and including it in the Clarity Act, but it's not clear to me if the language is still in there or if it'll make it into the final draft.

你在说什么？

What are you what are you saying?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我们也不确定。

I mean, we we don't know.

显然，国会山上有许多争论。

Obviously, there's there's a lots of debate on the Hill.

特朗普说‘不’，这很好。

It's great that Trump said, like, no.

我们仍然需要做这件事。

We still need to do this.

我们必须让这件事成真。

We need to make this happen.

你知道，我们时间不多了。

You know, we're running out of time.

再过不久，整个国会都将专注于中期选举和即将到来的竞选，根本无暇顾及起草新法案，更别提通过了。

In not very long, basically, all of congress is just gonna be on the midterms and and winning their their upcoming elections and not focused on on writing new bills, let alone passing them.

所以，是的，我们必须施加压力，确保BRCA以及对LSP和软件开发者的相关保护条款能保留下来。

So, yeah, there's, you know, there's pressure to be had for for making sure that that the BRCA and and side protection for LSPs and software developers stays in there.

同时，我们也必须施加压力，推动它最终通过。

There's also pressure to be had to to get it over the line.

当然，大型银行担心，它们那种让所有人存款零利息、再把钱贷出去赚取利息的绝佳生意即将终结。

And, you know, obviously, the the big banks are worried that this great cat this great business they have where they pay everyone zero interest and then loan out their money and make interest on it is gonna go away.

我的意思是，这简直太荒谬了，因为上周我读了一篇《华尔街日报》的文章。

I mean, it's the dumbest thing because, you know, I was reading an article in the The Wall Street Journal the other week.

文章提到，实际上，大家已经纷纷把资金从银行转移到经纪账户了，因为经纪账户可以提供借记卡。

I was talking about how actually everyone's already moving their money out of banks and just holding them in brokerage accounts now because brokerage accounts will give you a debit card.

它们还允许你开支票。

They'll let you write checks.

他们还能帮你处理账单支付。

They'll do bill pay.

他们允许你进行电汇。

They'll let you send wires.

他们支持ACH转账。

They let you ACH.

而且，他们的账户还会给你付利息，因为他们会为你持有国债。

And, also, they hold your money in an account that gives you interest because they hold treasuries for you.

现在银行却说：不行。

And now the banks are saying, like, no.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

加密货币不行，因为稳定币无法支付利息，否则人们可能会把钱从银行转移到Coinbase，比如我，我已经不再使用银行了。

Crypto can't because stablecoins can't pay interest because people might move their money out of banks into into Coinbase when, like I mean, I I stopped using a bank.

我现在很多美元都放在经纪账户里，因为是的，我想赚点利息。

I use a a brokerage account for a lot of my dollars now because, yeah, I want some interest.

能拿到比零更高的利息就好了。

It would be nice to get some interest more than zero.

这是最愚蠢的论点，但银行却坚持这个观点，一些参议员也信了，因为他们担心如果银行没钱，就无法放贷，从而拖垮经济。

So it's the dumbest argument and but the banks are standing on it, and and some of the senate is is buying it because they're worried that, you know, if banks don't have any money, they'll stop giving loans, and that'll crater the economy.

而且，嗯，特朗普政府也出来表示，不行。

It's anyway and and, yeah, the, you know, the Trump administration coming out and saying, like, no.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

我们必须把这件事搞定，这样很好。

We have to get this done is is good.

显然，你在Truth Social上发一两篇帖子不可能迫使所有参议员真的说：好吧。

Obviously, you know, one or two posts on Truth Social is not going to, like, force all the senators to to really say, okay.

实际上，不行。

And, actually, no.

我需要放松一下，然后继续推进这件事。

I need to I need to let up on this and and go forward with it.

我们看看他会参与多少。

We'll see how how involved he gets.

你知道吗，他会打电话给一些参议员，说：喂，来吧。

You know, does he pick up the phone and and call some senators and say, like, come on.

赶紧把这事办成吧。

Just get this over the line.

这太蠢了。

This is this is dumb.

我们走着瞧。

We'll see.

但对，我觉得这一切仍然相当不清楚。

But, yeah, I think it's all it's all still fairly unclear.

我不在华盛顿。

I'm not in DC.

我肯定Coinsetters或BPI那些人能给你一个更及时的风向判断。

I I'm sure Coinsetters or BPI or those folks could could give you a a more up to date sense of where the wind

是。

is

但至少目前公开的信息，仍然悬而未决。

blowing, but at least what is public right now, it's still just kind of up in the air.

他们还在继续推进这项工作。

They're still doing work on it.

希望我们能尽快完成，因为如果没完成，据我所知，到了三月，这件事就正式进入初选阶段了。

Hopefully, we get it done soon because if it's not done I mean, what I've been told is basically March, it just starts to become primary.

所以 primaries 已经开始了，在很多情况下，很多人都已经在为连任而斗争。

So it primaries have already started, so in many cases, a lot of people are already fighting the for reelection.

但这只是进入了连任季，结果什么法案都通过不了。

But it just becomes reelection season, and then you don't get anything passed.

如果我们等到下一届国会，你知道，沃伦很可能掌管银行小组委员会，因为如果民主党重新掌控，她将是金融委员会的资深议员。

And if we wait till if we wait till next congress, you know, there's a decent chance that Warren runs the banking subcommittee because if the Democrats retake it, she would be the the senior member on I think it's the finance committee.

我认为她会在金融委员会担任资深成员，然后她就能决定哪些事能推进、哪些事会被搁置，而她根本不可能关心这些事。

I believe she would be a senior on on finance, and then she would get to steer happens and what doesn't, and there's no way in hell she's gonna care about any of this stuff.

你知道，有些民主党人是关心这些事的，但具体来说，她肯定不会。

You know, there's some Democrats who who care about this stuff, but specifically, she certainly wouldn't.

而且她将主导该委员会的事务，这对我们来说非常不利。

And and she would get to steer what happens in that committee, and that's that's very bad for us.

是的。

Yeah.

不太理想。

Not ideal.

马萨诸塞州的人们，我认为是时候站出来了

People in Massachusetts, I think it's time to stand up and

是的

Yeah.

我不明白他们对沃伦是怎么想的

I don't know what they're they're thinking with Warren.

我知道很多民主党人其实明白，但沃伦绝对不希望我们成功

I you know, there's a lot of Democrats, I think, do get it, and boy, Warren does not want us to have.

没错

No.

没错

No.

这再清楚不过了

That's abundantly clear.

你昨天应该听到布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗在有线电视上称她为共产主义者，这基本上就是事实

You should have Brian Brian Armstrong calling her a communist yesterday on on cable television, which was, like Basically true.

这很有趣。

It's funny.

Brian Armstrong被迫比过去十年更努力地为比特币辩护，这显得很牵强。

It's forced, Brian Armstrong to position to, like, defend Bitcoin harder than he has, in the last decade.

确实如此。

Just been Yeah.

一个令人愉快的惊喜。

A pleasant pleasant surprise.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你看，显然，以太坊为加密行业带来了一大堆比特币并不关心的东西。

I mean, look, obviously, Clarity is a bunch of stuff for the crypto industry that Bitcoin doesn't care about.

我的意思是，它主要集中在代币监管上，而这对我们的影响微乎其微。

I mean, it's mostly focused around token regulation that doesn't affect us at all.

但你知道的，嘿。

But, you know, hey.

如果我们能为软件开发者、LSP运营商、ARC服务提供商等争取到BRCA和保护，那我们就必须全力支持整个举措。

If if we can get the BRCA and and protection for for software developers and and LSP operators and ARC service provider operators and and and and and and in there, then we gotta support that whole hog.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你提到了BPI。

I mean, you mentioned BPI.

我知道我说过那是最后一件事了，但你能再给我回忆一下他们本周早些时候发布的关于代理型货币的研究论文吗？

I know I said that was the last thing, but refresh my memory of that research paper they released on agentic money earlier this week.

你对这个有什么看法？

What are your thoughts on that?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你得小心，别过度解读像LLM预测下一个词元这样的事情。

I mean, you know, you have to be careful reading too much into, like, you know, LLMs predict the next token.

对吧？

Right?

现在网上有大量文章说比特币是LLM最好的货币。

And so if there's there's a ton of articles out there about how Bitcoin is the best money for LLMs.

但几乎没有文章说美元是LLM最好的货币。

There's not very many articles out there about how dollars are the best money for LLMs.

所以如果你在LLM里输入‘对于LLM或NAI代理来说，最好的货币是什么？’，它的回答会是：你看。

And so if you start typing into an LLM, what is the best money for LLMs or an NAI agents, the response is gonna be, well, look.

我的训练数据里有这么多文章都说比特币在这方面很棒。

There's all these articles in my training set about how Bitcoin is great for this.

所以答案是比特币。

So the answer is Bitcoin.

但这并不一定意味着这就是正确的答案。

That doesn't necessarily mean that that's the correct answer.

你知道，我认为在很多情况下，这在某种程度上确实是正确的答案。

You know, I think it is, to some extent, the correct answer in in many contexts.

但这并不意味着它就会胜出。

But it also doesn't mean that that's what's gonna win.

即使这是正确的答案，即使AI代理更偏好比特币，但最终人类还是会向它发出指令，比如：嘿。

Even if that is the correct answer, even if AI agents prefer Bitcoin, you know, ultimately, the human is gonna prompt it and say, like, hey.

你能直接买这个吗？

Can you just buy this?

如果OpenAI的ChatGPT托管代理产品——虽然目前还不存在，但我预计将来某天会出现——直接集成了USDC或它们自己的专有支付协议，以便它们能获得收入，比如OpenAI和Stripe的支付协议，理论上它们能从所有这些交易中获利，那么代理就会被指示使用这个协议，然后它就只会使用这个。

And if, OpenAI ChatGPT hosted agents products, which doesn't exist really yet, but I imagine will at some point, has direct integrations for USDC or their own proprietary payment protocol so that they get the money, like, the the OpenAI and Stripe payment protocol where where presumably they would get the the revenue from all of these things, then the agent is gonna be told to use that, and it's just gonna use that.

所以，我不认为我们可以依赖代理更偏好比特币。

So so I don't think we can rely on agents preferring Bitcoin.

很高兴看到它们的训练数据中确实有大量这样的内容。

It it's good to see that there is a lot of that data out there in their training set.

很高兴看到有很多人写文章说比特币对代理来说很棒。

Like, it's it's good to see that a lot of people write about how Bitcoin is great for agents.