第九十九集：乔纳森·梅里特

如果我的

If my

我们的零食倒是各有各的讲究。

room We we merits our snackers, though.

你吗？

Are you?

这是在管理家庭吗？

Is that running the family?

听我说，接下来我想带我们去这个地方。

Listen, that's where I wanted us to go next.

我不

I don't

知道多恩斯是不是

know if the Downs is

我们的。不。

our No.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

但我真的希望你谈谈佐治亚斗牛犬队，我想听听你的家人对佐治亚斗牛犬队的看法。

But I really want you to talk about speaking of Georgia Bulldogs, I want you to talk about how your family feels about the Georgia Bulldogs.

哦，

Oh,

天啊，我们家对佐治亚斗牛犬队的崇拜简直到了狂热的地步。

man, it is it is it is deeply idolatrous in our family.

我们家有一个完整的佐治亚斗牛犬队主题区域。

We have we have an entire Georgia compound.

是的。

Yes.

这正是我想让你告诉别人的。

This is what I wanted you to tell people.

是的。

Yes.

这正是我想要的。

This is what I want.

我们有一个乔治亚队的奖杯室。

We've got a Georgia, a Georgia trophy room.

每面墙的每一寸空间都布置满了。

We've got, every inch of every wall.

里面都有些什么奖杯？

What kind of trophies are in there?

哦，比如SEC冠军奖杯的复制品、签名装备。

Oh, like replicas of SEC championship trophies, signed gear.

天啊。

Oh my god.

我的意思是，有签名的足球、签名的球衣。

All I mean, signed footballs, signed jerseys.

这太疯狂了。

It's nuts.

甚至连推拉窗都被喷砂刻上了G字母和狗头图案，简直疯狂。

And even like the the the sliding windows are like sandblasted with g's and dogheads and it's crazy.

这太棒了。

That's amazing.

太疯狂了。

It's crazy.

我们有一张佐治亚队的台球桌，上面写着——你会明白的——上面有签名，写着‘冲啊，林赛，冲啊’。

We've got a Georgia pool table, and it says, which you'll understand this, it's signed and says, run, Lindsay, run.

这是由我们全国冠军队的四分卫巴克·巴卢签名的。

It's signed by Buck Baloo, the the quarterback of our national championship team.

你是说你过来亲自在你的台球桌上签名了？

It's custom say you came over and signed your pool table?

我跟你说真的。

I kid you not.

太疯狂了。

It's sick.

我们有个乔治亚风格的厨房，乔治亚风格的浴室。

We have a Georgia kitchen, a Georgia bathroom.

听好了，当你掀开马桶盖时。

Listen, you lift the toilet seat.

人们就能知道你是小解还是大解。

This is how people will know whether you do it in number one or number two.

如果你移动马桶盖，它就会播放《荣耀归于老乔治亚》。

If you move the toilet seat, it plays glory to old Georgia.

哇。

Wow.

他们就会说，哦，是的。

They're like, oh, yeah.

她得在里面待一会儿。

She's gonna be in there a while.

是的。

Yeah.

这得花点时间。

That's gonna take a minute.

我们都是男孩。

We're all boys.

我们家全是男孩。

We're all boys in our family.

所以如果有人进去把座圈放下来，你就赶紧走。

So if somebody goes in there and lowers the seat, you evacuate.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

大家都明白。

Everybody knows.

你听到了吗？

You hear that?

对。

Right.

听到战歌，你就跑。

You hear fight song, you run.

你是三个儿子中的中间那个。

You're the middle of three sons.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

好的。

Okay.

也就是说，我在服用舍曲林。

Which is to say I'm on Lexapro.

我有太多中子女的问题了。

I I have so many middle child issues.

这简直荒谬至极。

It's it's literally ridiculous.

真的吗？

Really?

你的痛苦几乎都能追溯到你是中子女这一点。

Like, you can trace so much of your pain to middle childrenness.

在这里的每一个中子女都在点头表示认同。

Every middle child out here is nodding in agreement.

我保证，每一个在听的中子女都会说：‘哦，没错’，因为你从小就知道第一个儿子是宠儿。

I promise every middle child listening is going, oh yeah, because you grow up with the first son who is the favorite.

他能先做所有事情，然后你的父母就学会了吧？

He gets to do everything first and then your parents learn, right?

所以他们会说：不行，不行，不行。

So they go, uh-uh uh-uh uh-uh.

不，不，不。

No, no, no.

听我说，关键是这样。

Like, here's the thing.

我哥哥去了佐治亚大学。

My brother went to UGA.

对。

Right.

我希望他永远别听我讲他的故事。

He'll never I hope he'll never listen to I'll tell his story.

詹姆斯和詹姆斯当时都在佐治亚大学。

James were at Georgia at the same time, James and

我。

I.

我可以这么说，因为詹姆斯现在是一位非常成功的律师，但在大学时，他经常聚会。

And I can say this because James is a very successful attorney now, but in college, he partied.

他被勒令停学，你知道的，学术观察期。

He was put on, you know, academic probation.

他花了七年才毕业。

It took him seven years to graduate.

现在他拿到了学士学位。

Now he got a bachelor's.

通常有了这个，人们会称你为博士，但他花了七年才拿到学士学位。

Typically with that, you become what people call a doctor, but it took him seven years to get his bachelor's degree.

所以当我准备入学时，我父母说，不行，如果你去佐治亚大学，就不能开车去。

And so by the time I came around, my parents said, no, if you go to Georgia, you can't take your car.

我们不会给你任何帮助，你别想去，所以我去了所基督教大学，因为佐治亚大学已经被排除在外了。

We won't give you any help, you're not gonna go to so I went to a Christian college instead because Georgia was off the table.

好的。

Okay.

所以从小就是这样。

And so it was like that all the time growing up.

但对于排行中间的孩子来说，最让人抓狂的是这一点。

But here is the maddening thing for people who are middle children.

等到父母生到第三个孩子时，他们已经筋疲力尽了。

By the time the parents get to the third child, now they're exhausted.

当然。

Sure.

所以他们已经不在乎了。

So they're over it.

而第一个孩子却成了掌上明珠。

And now you've got the first child who's like the prized possession.

他们得到了父母全部的爱。

They got mom and dad, so first love.

然后你还有最小的孩子，那就是宝贝。

And then you have the last child, that's the baby.

对。

Right.

你知道的吧？

You know?

所以现在父母又重新放松了，约书亚得到的车比我们的好。

So now the parents have kind of opened up again And Joshua got a nicer car than we got.

他什么事都能蒙混过关。

He got away with everything.

他有更晚的宵禁时间。

He got a later curfew.

所以他处在中间，你开始把自己的生活和年长的和年幼的相比，觉得自己不那么可爱。

And so he's in the middle and you begin to compare your life to the older and the younger and it's I'm less lovable.

现在说点实在的。

Now we get real.

是的。

Yeah.

认真对待这一点。

Get real about that.

部分原因是，你觉得自己不被看见，因为你是最少得到关注的孩子。

Part of it is is you don't feel seen because you you're you're the sort of the the the child that gets the least amount of attention.

因此，基于我们童年的创伤，许多中间孩子最终都成了三号人格。

And so a lot of a lot because based on our childhood wounds, a lot of mill middle children end up being any gram threes.

是的。

Yeah.

这太有趣了。

That's so interesting.

这太有趣了，因为我认识的很多三号男性都不是家里的长子。

That's so interesting because so many of the male threes I know are not the oldest children in their family.

没错。

Yep.

所以，这就是全部了。

So there you have it.

那你在家里的排行是怎样的？

That's What which where do you fall in the order?

我是三个姐妹中最年长的。

I'm the oldest of three sisters.

哦。

Oh.

但我们还有和我们住在一起、被我们抚养长大的表亲。

But then we also have cousins that lived with us and were, you know, raised with us.

但在那些真正一直住在一起的人中，我是最年长的。

But of the most of the ones who, like, actually live together all the time, I'm the oldest of

那你跟我们说说吧。

Well, tell us tell us then.

告诉我们吧，安妮。

Tell us, Annie.

让我们看看你的生活吧。

Give us a peek into your life.

作为长子，你童年时有哪些创伤？

How did that what what are your childhood wounds from being an oldest child?

你的创伤是什么，安妮？

What are your wounds, Annie?

说吧，把一切都告诉我们。

Go ahead and just tell us all.

你知道吗，我觉得我成了七号，因为我感觉有责任让每个人都开心。

You know, I think I became a seven because I felt like it was my responsibility to entertain everybody.

让情绪节奏由我来掌控，不管是不是真的该由我来，这都是我的责任。

Oh, it was my responsibility to be the the one who set the emotional pace, whether that was true or not.

我就是这么感觉的。

That's how I felt.

所以

So

我知道在我的情况下，作为长子，有时你几乎会成为替代父母的角色。

I know in my situation sometimes because you're the you on the first child almost in some ways can become the surrogate parent parent at times.

是的。

Yeah.

这可能会引发怨恨。

And that can create resentment.

你小时候有没有过这种感觉，比如：好吧。

Did you ever get any did you ever feel that growing up where you were like, okay.

安妮不得不扮演警察或调解员或父母的角色，你作为长子有没有遇到过这种情况？

Annie has to play this role of policewoman or mediator or parent, did you ever run into that as the eldest?

我觉得更多是因为我最小的妹妹比我小八岁，所以我把自己当成了父母。

I felt more like well, because my youngest sister's eight years younger than me, I put myself in the parent role.

对。

Right.

我当时想，你说什么？你居然让三岁的小孩在船后拖着玩？

Where I was like, what do you mean you're gonna let her tube on the back behind the boat at three years old?

我父母说，我们已经这么做过两次了，你们俩都活得好好的。

And my parents like, we've done this, like, we've done this twice, and y'all are both alive.

对。

Right.

我当时就觉得，她有危险。

So and I was like, she's in danger.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

所以呢，对，

So like, right,

我开玩笑说，我妹妹萨莉是我唯一带大的孩子，你知道吗？因为我觉得父母带得不好，其实他们做得很好。

I jokingly say my sister Sally is the only child I've ever raised, you know, because because I was so certain my parents were not doing it well when they were they were doing great.

他们很清楚自己在做什么。

They knew what they were doing.

我之前从来没带过孩子。

I just had never raised a kid before.

所以我11岁的时候，犯了一堆新手父母才会犯的错误，你知道的？

So I was making all the first parent mistakes when I was 11, you know?

所以我觉得自己对她的责任可能比父母要求我的更多，甚至超出了我该承担的范围，只因为我们年龄差距太大。

So I felt I probably felt responsible toward her more than more than my parents asked me to or more than I should have just because we were so different in age.

这很合理。

That makes sense.

所以那

So that

完全说得通。

makes total sense.

但我觉得这就是为什么我是我们这群人里唯一的七个，因为我的两个姐妹都会说，一个是一岁，一个是九岁。

But I think that's why I'm the only seven of our crew because they would both my two sisters would say they're one's a two and one's a nine.

所以我觉得我是唯一一个明显是表演型的人。

And and so I think I'm the only one who who is the performer clearly.

意思是，我们的工作表现出来了。

Mean, our jobs show that.

是中间的孩子是九吗？

Is it the middle child who's the nine?

不，她是二。

No, she's the two.

有意思。

Interesting.

最小的是九。

And the youngest is the nine.

所以我是

So I

明白。

know.

是的。

Yeah.

因为很多

Because a lot

中间的孩子也往往成为调停者。

of middle children end up being peacemakers too.

我不明白为什么会这样。

And I don't know why that is.

但我经常听到这种说法。

But I hear that all

总是这样。

the time.

我在想，这是否是女性与男性之间的差异。

I wonder if that's a female thing versus a male thing.

比如，是不是男性中间孩子更需要成就，而女性中间孩子更需要和平。

Like, wonder if male middle children need to achieve and female middle children need peace.

有可能。

Could be.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know.

这很有趣。

It's interesting.

这

That's

很有趣。

interesting.

所以，关于九型人格，人们经常问我，我就直接说一下吧。

So Enneagram, people ask me all the time, so I'll just say this on this one.

如果你想要了解九型人格，而且一直听我们提到它，觉得它很有趣，那你会推荐什么，乔纳森？

If you want to learn about Enneagram, and you keep hearing us talk about it, you think it's interesting, I would what's your recommendations, Jonathan?

我通常会说，读一读伊恩·克罗恩和苏珊娜·斯塔布尔的书《回归本我》。

I usually say read, Ian Cron and Suzanne Stabile's book, The Road Back to You.

我非常喜欢这本书。

I love that book.

我觉得，这本算是2.0版本的书

I think, the the kind of two point o book

是的。

Yeah.

在我看来，是克里斯·休伯特的那本书。

Is, in in my view, is Chris Hewert's book.

哦，我也喜欢那本书。

Oh, I love that book.

对吧？

Right?

但它更像是进阶读物，不是入门书。

But it's like a it's like a next it's not an entry book.

对。

Yep.

没错。

That's right.

这更像是一本2.0版的书。

It's it's more of a two point o book.

我也在等《Annieogram》播客。

I also am waiting for the Annieogram podcast.

好的。

Alright.

当我们做零食播客时，我们就该这么做。

That is that is what we should do when we do the snack podcast.

前半部分是零食。

The first half is snacks.

后半部分是我发放Annieogram评分。

The second half is me passing out Annieogram scores.

嗯嗯。

Uh-huh.

给人们。

To people.

是的。

Yes.

我们需要做的是，重新为这九种类型命名。

And we're gonna have what we need to do is, like, retitle everyone of the nine types.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

这更像安妮的风格。

That is a little more Annie esque.

我觉得我们

Think we

需要创建一个

need to That's create an

真的很有趣。

really funny.

我觉得我应该。

I think I should.

我其实特别喜欢人们做测试之类的事情。

I actually kind of totally love it where people like take quizzes and everything.

没错。

Exactly.

哦，我觉得这会

Oh, I think that'll

很棒。

be great.

觉得这真的很有趣。

Think that's really fun.

好吧，你是在佐治亚州长大的。

Okay, so you grew up in Georgia.

是的。

I did.

但你现在已经不住在那里了。

But you do not live there anymore.

不，我住在纽约市。

No, I live in New York City.

我知道你过着我梦想的生活。

I know you're living my dream life.

那是我一直想搬去却从未搬去的城市。

That's the city I never moved to that I always wanted to.

嗯，我知道我常说，你随时都可以来这儿做客。

Well, you know what I've what I've said is, is you always have a place here you can come visit.

如果你决定留下来，我们完全没问题。

If you decide to just stay, it's fine with us.

那就这么说定了。

So it shall be.

你的新书《从零开始学习如何与上帝对话》，我觉得这本书的灵感很大程度上来自于你从亚特兰大南方生活（基督教是日常生活的一部分）到纽约（基督教像一种外语）的转变。

That your new book, How to Speak God from Scratch, I feel like that's so much of what that, where that book even came from was that transition from your like Atlanta Southern life where Christianity is like a normal part up to New York where it's a foreign language.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，我刚搬来的时候，很多人会问：‘你遇到文化冲击了吗？’

You know, when I moved here, a lot of people are like, oh, did you encounter culture shock?

当然，当你从圣经地带搬到纽约市，这种巨大的转变肯定会带来文化冲击。

And, yeah, like, of course, you move you make a move like that from the Bible Belt to New York City, you're gonna encounter some culture shock.

但更关键的是，我遇到了一种语言障碍——不是我不能再讲英语，而是我不能再讲‘上帝的语言’。

But more than that, it was that I encountered this language barrier that it wasn't that I could no longer speak English, but I could no longer speak God.

而且，你知道，我们之前聊过这个，很多人的经历其实都类似。

And and I you know, we've talked about this just oh, and a lot of people experience this, by the way.

我搬来的时候就经历了这个，因为在佐治亚州时，我在教会服事。

I experienced it when I moved because when I was in Georgia, I was I was serving at a church.

所以我一直生活在一种基督教社群的保护之中。

So I was very much insulated in a kind of Christian community.

我上过

I'd gone to

你是说你当时是教会的工作人员吗？

You were serving as like a staff member, is that what you mean?

是的。

Yes.

我在一家教会担任工作人员。

Was a staff member at a church.

你知道，我认识的每个人、和我互动的每个人，都和我想法一致、信仰相同，去的是同一间教会。

I was, you know, so I was really everybody that I knew and interacted with kind of thought like me, believed like me, went to the same church as me.

所以当我搬到纽约时，这不仅仅是——纽约以一种非常鲜明的方式让我体会到，很多你的听众每天外出工作时都会经历的处境，无论你住在哪里，因为你知道，美国正在变化，无论南北东西。

So when I moved to New York, it wasn't just I mean New York does it a very pointed way, I was really experiencing what a lot of your listeners experience every day that they go when they go out and they work and they go to like a secular job and it doesn't matter where you live because, you know, America is changing, north, south, east, west.

你即使住在塔尔萨，当你去上班、参加家长教师协会会议、参加社区活动，或者在环形路口闲逛时，也会感受到这些张力，你很难进行属灵的对话。

You can go you can live in Tulsa and you'll experience these tensions when you you you go to work or you go to your PTA meeting or you go to your community event or you're hanging out in the cul de sac and you're really struggling to have spiritual conversations.

你知道，某些词语会引发紧张，你害怕被看作极端分子或宗教狂热者，或者你只是觉得他们不会理解我的意思，或者我也不懂他们的意思。

And you know, the words create tension or you're afraid that you'll be seen as an extremist or a religious fanatic or maybe you just think they're not gonna really know what I mean or I don't know what they mean.

久而久之，你就干脆不再谈论属灵的事了。

And over time, you just stop speaking God altogether.

在我的生活中，我发现最终我根本不再进行任何属灵的对话。

And I found that in my life that, eventually, I was just not having spiritual conversations at all.

对。

Right.

我很幸运，几周前能参加你的新书发布会，在纽约和你在一起。

And that like, I was lucky enough to get to come up for your book launch and release a couple of weeks ago and be with you in New York.

所以，我参加了几次你出席的活动，听你谈论这件事。

So, and, be at a couple of events with you and hear you talk about it.

你如此清晰地表达出你所经历的一切，这让我非常惊叹。

And it, it just amazes me how well you articulate what you went through.

但具体到每一天，那种感觉究竟是怎样的？

But like, what did that actually feel like on a day?

当你意识到：哦，这些在我过去生活中再平常不过的语言和对话，在这里却行不通了。

Like when you realize like, oh, this language, these conversations that were really normal for me in a former life are not working here.

是的。

Yeah.

这很可怕吗？

Was it scary?

这确实很可怕，但同时也是一些间歇性的不适时刻。

It was scary, but it was also, it was these moments of kind of punctuated discomfort.

你知道，你会和干洗店的人聊天，她会说，哦，我和我的干洗店老板是朋友。

You know, you would have a conversation, you'd be you'd be talking to your dry cleaner and she'd say, oh, you know, I'm friends with my dry cleaner.

她会问，你平时做什么工作？

She says, what do you do you do for a living?

我会说，我是个写宗教题材的作家。

And I'd say, I'm a religion writer.

这就会打开一扇门，引向神学问题、关于信仰的问题，而我发现我真的很吃力。

And that would open up this door to theological questions, questions about faith, and I found that I really struggled.

有人会说，哦，是啊是啊是啊，你从小就是这样长大的，你是基督徒。

Somebody would say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, you grew up like this, oh, you're a Christian.

你对那些罪恶的东西怎么看？

What do you think about all that sin stuff?

而且

And

你根本不知道该怎么回答这些问题，所以最后我会说，我是个作家，写关于文化的东西，你知道的，你总有办法避开这个话题。正如我之前说过的，我很快意识到，写后基督教文化比生活在其中容易得多。

you're like, I you don't even know how to answer those questions, and so eventually then I would say, oh, I'm a writer, I write about culture, you know, you'd have ways to like sidestep it and as I've said before, I realized really quickly, it's a lot easier to write about post Christian culture than it is to live in it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当你真正要与真实的人生活在这种文化中时，那些有血有肉、带着疑问的人。

When you're actually having to live in that culture with real people who who you know, people like skin wearing people who have questions.

对。

Right.

他们直视着你的眼睛。

Who look you in the eyes.

是的，这变得非常困难。

Yeah, it becomes really hard.

而最困难的部分，我认为，不仅仅是与我交谈的那个人常常不理解我的意思。

And the hardest part, I think, is not just that oftentimes the person I'm talking to doesn't know what I mean.

但在这一过程中，我意识到，我其实并不知道自己什么意思。

But through that process, I realize, I don't know what I mean.

我的意思是，这正是可怕的地方，对吧？

I mean, that's the scary thing, right?

实际情况是，当别人逼迫你时，你会意识到，也许你并不像自己以为的那样了解这些意味着什么。

Is the the the actual reality of it is is that when someone else pushes you, it makes you realize, maybe I don't know as much as I thought I knew what this meant.

是的。

Yeah.

说得太对了。

That's exactly right.

它就是

It's

太可怕了。

so scary.

而且

And

我向你保证，如果我们把所有你的听众都召集到一个房间里，发给他们所有索引卡片，然后说——因为我有一个YouTube系列，做的是街头采访。

and I I I promise you, if we could take all of your listeners and put them into a room and we pass them out all index cards and we said, you know, because I have a YouTube series where I'm doing, like, man on the street interviews.

我喜欢这些。

I love them.

它们非常有趣。

They're so interesting.

谢谢。

Thanks.

有趣的是，如果我把你的所有听众都聚集在一个房间里，问他们：你觉得‘福音’这个词是什么意思？

It's funny, like if I put all your listeners in a room and said, what do you think the word gospel means?

你觉得‘罪’这个词是什么意思？

What do you think the word sin means?

你觉得‘恩典’这个词是什么意思？

What do you think the word grace means?

你得到的答案几乎会和人数一样多。

You would get almost as many answers as people.

所以实际情况是，当我们看到那些索引卡片时，它们其实是空白的。

So what happens is as we realize and of a those index cards, by the way, would be blank.

对。

Right.

因为如果你试图定义‘恩典’这样的词，就像定义‘颜色’一样——你一直在用它，但真的很难说清楚。

Because if you try to define a word like grace, it's like the word color or the, you know, you use it but it's really hard to define.

我特别喜欢达拉斯·威拉德的一句名言，可惜没能在我的书里加上：人们常说‘熟悉产生轻蔑’，但实际情况其实更复杂。

There's a quote by Dallas Willard that I love and I wish I had included in my book, you know, there's that old saying that, familiarity breeds contempt and the he process is actually more complicated than that.

熟悉导致陌生，而陌生又滋生轻蔑。

Familiarity breeds unfamiliarity and unfamiliarity breeds contempt.

换句话说，我们可能太常谈论耶稣了，以至于反而并不真正了解他。

In other words, like we can talk about Jesus so often that we don't even really know.

就像你记得腓力对耶稣说的：‘我从未真正认识你。’

There's like, you know, if you remember Philip Jesus I never knew.

是的。

Yeah.

这个人变得如此熟悉，反而变得陌生了。

That that this person can become so familiar, they're actually strange.

你理所当然地认为他们是谁，以及这些词的含义。

You just take for granted what it who they are and what it and what these words mean.

而我这个人靠写宗教为生，却突然意识到，自己早已把信仰词汇中的一切视为理所当然。

And here I was, this guy who writes about religion for a living And I was sort of waking up to the fact that I'd taken all of these words in the vocabulary of faith for granted.

现在，我甚至都不再知道它们意味着什么了。

Now I didn't even know what they meant anymore.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你并没有想：这会是一本很棒的书。

Because you didn't go like, this is gonna make a great book.

而是想：天啊，我的生活正在崩溃。

It was like, oh my gosh, my life is falling apart.

也许，这就是对的。

Like, this may be right.

那么，在它成为一本书之前，你做了什么？

So what do you do before it became a book?

你的现实生活里，当时是什么样子？

Like, what was it like in your real life?

你知道，那是一段时期，我把信仰——而信仰在最好的状态下是整合的——

You know, it was a period where I took faith, which faith is at its best is integrated.

是的。

Yeah.

但我把它变成了一个孤立的东西。

And I made it a compartmentalized thing.

所以

So

信仰可以存在于我的手机里，当我跟家人通话时。

faith could live in my cell phone when I talk to my family.

信仰可以存在于公立学校里，我的教会每周日在那里聚会。

Faith could live inside the public school where my church meets on Sundays.

信仰可以存在，但受到了限制，对吧？

Faith could live, but it was restricted, right?

突然间，我的信仰有了界限。

There were boundaries around faith for me suddenly.

所以信仰不会出现在洗衣店、理发店、晚餐聚会，你知道的，咖啡店里的对话，所有这些地方都超出了界限。

So faith didn't the dry cleaner, the barber shop, the dinner party, you know, the conversation at the coffee shop, all of these things, they were outside the boundary.

所以这些地方都不适用。

So they didn't apply.

现在有个词叫‘代码切换’，我会在那些场合切换语言，用某种语言在那些空间里说话，而在那些空间之外则用另一种语言，结果我过着一种分裂的生活：在某些地方、和某些人在一起时，我表现和说话的方式是这样的，而在其他地方则完全不同，我想今天很多人会说，是的，我也有同样的经历。

You know there's this phrase now code switching, I would code switch, I'd use some language when I was in those spaces in some ways language when I was outside of those and as a result, I had this kind of schizophrenic existence where I acted and talked a certain way inside certain places with certain people and acted and spoke a different way in other places, and I think a lot of people today say, Yeah, I have the same experience.

你走进教堂的门，就像发生了一次蜕变。

You walk through the door of a church and it's like a metamorphosis occurs.

是的，你会开始说正确的话。

Yeah, you like start saying the right thing.

对，对，对。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

这本身也可能很糟糕，因为有些教会与我们生活的方方面面完全脱节。

And that can be bad in its own right because some churches become so disconnected from all of our lives.

但目标应该是让信仰成为一种整合的现实，它被编织进你的DNA，无论你和谁在一起，或去到哪里，这都是你身份的一部分。

But the the goal is is that there would faith would be an integrated reality that it would be sewn into your DNA and no matter who you're with or where you go, that's just part of who you are.

它只是你身份的核心部分，而我意识到的是，我需要我的信仰。

It's just it's just a core part of your identity and what I realized was is I needed my faith.

我当时并不知道。

I didn't know.

我一直以为信仰是整合的。

I always assumed faith was integrated.

我意识到的是，不，我的信仰一直被分隔开来。

What I realized was, no, my faith had always been compartmentalized.

我只是从未走出那些隔间。

I just never left those compartments.

我只是足够幸运，身处那些能让我的信仰发挥作用的环境里，无论是工作场所还是

I just was lucky enough to be integrated or to be isolated in those spaces where my faith could be at work, at

玩耍。

play.

非常有趣。

Really interesting.

当我拥有了比那更广阔的生活后，我才意识到，这只不过是我每周几个小时里才涉及的事情。

Once I had a life that was much broader than that, I was like, Oh, gosh, this is just something that affects me a couple hours a week.

哦，对啊。

Oh, right.

天啊。

Gosh.

当你是一名宗教记者时，这不仅是你的语言，还是你的生计所在。

And when when you're a religion writer, when this is not only your language, but your financial existence.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这太可怕了。

That's so scary.

你知道它为我带来了什么吗？

And you know what it did for me?

这确实是真的。

And this this is true.

我想到了很多成功人士。

I think of a lot of successful people.

我敢打赌，虽然我们是朋友，但从未聊过这个，但我相信这对你也适用。

And I bet, you know, we're friends, but we've never talked about this, but I bet this is true of you.

大多数在各自领域取得成功的人，内心总有一个声音在说：你是个骗子。

Most successful people who are successful in whatever field they're in, they they always have this kind of inner voice that says you're a fraud.

你

You

知道吗？

know?

是的。

Yeah.

你其实没那么聪明。

That, like, you're really not that smart.

你其实没那么有吸引力。

You're really not that compelling.

你根本没什么能给这个世界。

You really don't have anything to offer the world.

总有一天，每个人都会发现真相。

Everybody one day is going to figure it out.

他们终会意识到，我敢打赌，每个人心里都有这种想法，不管是在家、在教堂、在友谊中，还是其他地方。

They are gonna figure gosh, I bet everybody has that in their head about whatever, whether it's home or church or friendships or, you know.

没错。

Right.

你看起来拥有一个成功的家庭，却觉得自己是个骗子。

You have what appears to be a successful family, you feel like a fraud.

你作为保险理赔员做得不错，却觉得自己是个骗子。

You're doing well as an insurance adjuster, you feel like a fraud.

你不必非得是个作家、演讲者之类的。

You don't have to be a writer, speaker, whatever.

每个人都有这种感觉。

Everybody has that.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，这种情况变得更加严重了，因为我当时在写关于这些事情的内容，讲的是作为有信仰的人，我们该如何在文化上保持敏锐。

And it it was really compounded for me in this way that I was like, woah, here I am writing about these things and how we need to be kind of culturally conversant as people of faith.

对。

Yeah.

但我做不到。

And I can't.

我真的无法做到。

I'm not actually able to do it myself.

我以前从读者那里听到的这些矛盾，现在我自己也亲身经历了，这让我内心那个声音更加响亮：‘啊，乔纳森，你只是在装样子罢了，总有一天人们会看穿你的。’

All these tensions that I used to hear from readers, I was now experiencing myself, and that sort of played on that inner voice in me that said, Ah, Jonathan, you're just you're really just faking it, And one day people are going to figure it out.

是的。

Yeah.

你到现在还这样想吗？

And do you still feel that way?

就像，那种声音还那么响吗？

Like, do you feel like it's as loud?

还是这个过程改变了它？

Or did this process change that?

首先，它没那么响了，但我也逐渐习惯了——怎么说呢，我原本以为，要成为一个能开启对话的人，我就是这样的，

One, it's not as loud, but I've also become comfortable in you know, I say, what I think my assumption was coming into this is, is in order to be a conversation starter, that's how I see myself, is like

这真美。

Oh, that's beautiful.

我是一个

I'm a

对话的开启者。

conversation starter.

为了成为一个善于开启对话的人，我原本以为这意味着我必须是个无所不知、总能给出正确答案的人。

In order to be a conversation starter, I assumed that meant that I had to be the kind of person who had all the right answers.

你知道，人们会来找我，而我就像耶稣·胡迪尼一样，能从帽子里变出兔子，对吧？

You know, that people could come to me and I was kind of like, you know, the Jesus Houdini, like I could just pull rabbits out of a hat, right?

嘿，这到底是什么意思？

Hey, what does this mean?

这到底是什么意思？

What does this mean?

那这个又是什么意思？

And what does that mean?

我该如何思考这个问题和那个问题？

And how should I think about this issue and that issue?

如果你这样看待自己，真的会觉得自己是个骗子。

You really can feel like a fraud if that's how you see yourself.

现在我觉得，上帝不仅存在于答案中，也存在于问题中，存在于问题与答案之间的神圣空间里，我可以活在那个空间里，并对此感到安心。

Now I think I'm seeing that there is, that God exists not just in the answers but in the questions and in that holy space between questions and answers and I can live there and I can be comfortable with that.

我逐渐意识到，我所能说出的最神圣的一句话是：我不知道。

I'm realizing that one of the most sacred phrases I can utter is, I don't know.

人们会说，哦，是啊，我该怎么看待做一个基督徒的同时思考税收问题呢？

People go, oh yeah, how should I think about, you know, being a Christian and thinking about taxes?

我会说，我从来没想过这个问题。

And I go, I've never thought of that.

就是，我不知道，而且我也不是什么都知道，这没关系。

Like, don't know and I'm not, and that's okay.

或者比如，嘿，你怎么定义这个词？

Or like, hey, how do you define this word?

你怎么看待神学概念X？

How do you think about theological concept X?

我可以说，是的，我得好好想想这个问题。

And I can say, yeah, you know, I need to think about that.

这是个很好的问题。

That's a great question.

我需要好好想想这个问题。

I need to think about that.

因此，当我逐渐摆脱那种执着于确定性、沉迷于给出答案的自我职业观时，我感觉不再那么像一个隐藏的骗子了。

And so shifting my posture away from that kind of certainty obsessed answer addicted notion of my own vocation, that has really helped me to feel less like kind of a secret fraud Yeah.

不像以前那样了。

Than it used to.

所以我要打断一下这个有趣的对话，简单介绍一下我的朋友创办的Prep Dish。

So I'm just gonna real quick interrupt this fun conversation and tell you about my friends over at prep dish.

如果你之前听过这个节目，应该已经听过我提起过他们，Prep Dish是节省时间、提高厨房效率的好方法。

You've heard me talk about them before if you have listened to the show before but prep dish is a great way to save time and be efficient in the kitchen.

健康饮食。

Eat healthy.

你了解我，我是无麸质、无乳制品的。

You know me, I'm gluten free, dairy free.

所以，这是一种很好的方式，能吃到真正天然的食物。

And so this is a great way to have those kind of meals that are real foods only.

但如果你吃乳制品、面筋，或者吃所有这些东西，这些餐食也同样适合你。

But you can also if you eat dairy, if you eat gluten, if you eat all the things, have that for you too.

这是一些轻松无压力、非常美味的餐食。

It's a stress free, really tasty meals.

而我非常喜爱的创始人艾莉森，正在为我的朋友们提供为期两周的免费试用，这太棒了。

And the owner, Allison, who I adore is offering my friends, you guys, a free two week trial of prep dish, which is awesome.

你可以免费试用两周。

You get to try it for free for two weeks.

这简直是不二之选。

This is like a no brainer.

只需访问 prepdish.com/annie。

Just go to prepdish.com/annie.

如果需要使用优惠码，直接用我的名字 ANNIE（全大写）即可。

And if you ever need to use a code, just use my first name, a n n I e, and all caps.

所以 Prep Dish 就像一种餐食规划服务。

So Prep Dish is like a meal planning service.

每周你都会收到一封邮件，里面包含购物清单和提前准备的说明，这样你一周的所有餐食都已准备就绪。

So every week, you get an email with a grocery list and a prep ahead instructions so that all of your meals are ready for the week.

完全不需要猜测。

There's no guesswork needed.

你可以让Prep Dish为你规划好一切，根本不用动脑筋，这对我特别好，因为我真的很忙。

You can let Prep Dish do all the planning for you don't even have to think about it, which is great for me because I'm just busy.

并不是我不喜欢做饭。

It's not that I don't like cooking.

我只是太忙了。

I'm just busy.

我的日程安排非常紧张。

And I have a crazy schedule.

这对我来说节省了大量时间。

And this is such a time saver for me.

所以，只要在周末花大约一小时，或者再多一点时间准备，我就能为整个星期准备好所有餐食。

So after only like an hour, maybe a little bit more of prepping on the weekend, I have all my meals ready for the entire week.

所以一定要去试试 Prep Dish。

So make sure you go and try prep dish.

我的意思是，为什么不免费试用两周呢？访问 prepdish.com/annie，你的前两周是免费的。

Mean, why not try it for free for two weeks, right prepdish.com/annie, and your first two weeks are free.

再次提醒，是 prepdish.com/annie。

Again, that's prepdish.com/annie.

天啊，我只是觉得应该给人们授权去提问，因为这几年来，这件事彻底改变了我——上帝存在于问题中，而不仅仅存在于答案中，这和我过去相信的完全不同。

Man, I just think giving people permission to because I think this has really changed me in the last few years that God is in the questions, not just in the answers is so different than what I used to believe.

我以前认为，当你处于疑问中时，你就迷失了。

I used to believe that when you were in the questions, you were lost.

也许你的灵魂并没有迷失。

Maybe not your soul is lost.

也许并不是说，除非你找到答案，否则你会下地狱。

Maybe it's not like, well, until you have the answer, you're going to hell.

不是那种意思，而是你觉得自己迷失了，处在错误的位置上。

Not like that, but you were lost and you were in the wrong place.

你当时就在旅途中，你知道的，我想到了《绿野仙踪》。

You were the journey was, you know, I think of like Wizard of Oz.

你那时还没处于对立状态。

You were in the, you weren't at odds yet.

你只是在森林里。

You were in the, in the forest.

我做这件事越久，进行这类对话越多，我就越觉得：不，不，不。

And the longer I do this and the more we have these kinds of conversations, I go, no, no, no.

相信上帝往往就在问题本身中，而不是在答案里，这带来了极大的自由，对吧？

There's so much freedom in believing that God is the destination is actually the questions half the time, right?

他就和你一起在问题中。

Like just he is in in the questions with you.

他并不是在等你给出正确答案。

He is not waiting for you at the right answer.

是的。

Yeah.

我在书中提到一点，指出古代拉比们阅读圣经中的每一个陈述句时，都仿佛句末带着一个问号。

And one thing that I say in the book, point out, you know, that that the the ancient rabbis, they read every declarative statement in the Bible as if it had a question mark on the end.

这是一种邀请，他们会说：上帝就在挣扎之中。

It was an invitation and they would say, God is in the wrestling.

对我们来说，不是说：好吧，我得弄清楚这个问题，必须背下某个神学观点X、Y、Z，然后能向别人辩护。

So for us, it's not, all right, I gotta figure this out, I have to memorize whatever theological point, X, Y and Z, and then be able to defend it to people.

我们认为上帝在那个地方等我们。

That's where we think God waits for us.

但我觉得，这种想法会让你陷入灵性上的封闭，而不是开放。

That though, I think leads you to a posture of spiritual closedness versus spiritual openness.

当你提出一个问题时，你处于一种敞开的姿态，对吧？

And that when you're asking a question, at you're in a posture of open handedness, right?

你的心是敞开的，你的头脑是敞开的，你正在进入、好奇并探索。

Your heart's open, your mind is open, you're entering and wondering and wandering.

我认为，当你开放而非封闭时，上帝往往能最有力地介入你的生命。

And I think that's a place where God can often most powerfully intersect your life when you're open and not closed.

当你说的是‘上帝啊，帮我弄明白’，而不是‘我已经弄明白了’的时候。

When you're saying not I have figured it out, but God help me figure this out.

如果你永远找不到答案，乔纳森，会发生什么？

What happens if you don't ever find the answer, Jonathan?

我想，如果目标是找到答案，那你就失败了。

I guess if the goal is to find the answer, then you fail.

是的。

Yeah.

但这引出了一个问题：目标真的是弄明白吗？

But that begs the question whether the goal is to figure it out.

你知道，当你读经文时，会读到像保罗说的那样，我们如今是透过镜子模糊地观看，就像我纽约洗碗机里每一块玻璃最后都变得模糊一样。

You know, you read the scripture and you read things like when Paul says that we, you know, we see through a dim glass, you know, which is about the way that every glass turns out in my New York dishwasher.

然后你会想，我需要点洗碗精。

And you think I need some Jet Dry.

没错。

That's right.

但你知道，这种观点认为你透过它看，一切都是模糊的。

But you know, this notion that you look through it and it's foggy.

但保罗说的是，当我能看清楚的时候，不是在这里，而是在这里之后。

But what Paul says is, he says, When I will see clearly is not here, it's after here.

所以对他而言，目标并不是拥有一块晶莹剔透的玻璃，因为他知道这永远不可能实现。

So the goal for him is not to have a crystal clear glass because he knows it's never going to happen.

如果目标如此，你将会在灵性上感到极度挫败。

And if that's the goal, you're going to live life spiritually frustrated.

真正的目标是学会一种超自然的从容，去接纳这种朦胧。

The goal to learn a kind of supernatural is to develop a kind of supernatural comfortability with the haze.

这真的很棒。

That's really good.

你是否终有一天能看得清清楚楚？

Will you ever get to a place where you see clearly?

不会。

No.

我认为不是在这辈子。

I think I I I not in not in this life.

我觉得很多事情往往会变得更清晰，你知道的，但那是在一个谱系上，它们永远不会完全变得清晰。

I think that things often get clearer, you know, but it's it's kind of on that spectrum, but they never totally clarify.

这太有趣了。

It's so interesting.

有时候，我一些非常保守的福音派朋友，比如我有牧师朋友，他们基本上坚信自己在神学院时所相信的一切。

Sometimes, some of my real conservative evangelical friends, like I have pastor friends, and, they basically believe everything they believed when they went to seminary.

他们完全没有调整自己的想法吗？

They haven't adjusted their thinking at all?

是的。

Yeah.

他们更擅长为这些观点辩护，并不断阅读那些相同观点的新翻版。

They're better at arguing it, and they keep reading new regurgitations of those same views.

我经常半开玩笑地对一些朋友说，天啊，能在22岁之前就搞懂上帝，一定很棒吧。

And I've often said to some of my friends, of jokingly, I say, man, it must be great to have figured God out by the time you were 22.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，我每天都在意识到自己并不知道。

I mean, I'm realizing every day that I don't know.

我的书里引用了一句话，我想是托马斯·默顿说的：关于上帝最根本的认识，就是认识到我们并不认识上帝。

I I have a quote in my book from, I think it's from Thomas Merton, who says the ultimate knowledge about God is the knowledge that we do not know God.

这才是终点。

That's the destination.

终点就是达到这样一个境地：我说，我其实并不认识上帝。

The destination is arriving at the place where you say, I don't actually know God.

如果我能了解的关于上帝的一切是一片海洋，那我只拥有一滴水。

That if I took if everything I could know about God is an ocean, I have a droplet.

是的。

Yeah.

就是这样。

That's it.

这不是很有趣吗？

Ain't that funny?

因为感觉我们对他非常了解。

Because it feels like we know him so well.

我觉得我了解他。

Like, I feel like I know him.

我觉得我懂他，你知道的？

Like, I feel like I get him, you know?

然后你就会想，天啊，我的视角太渺小了。

And then you go like, man, my perspective is so small.

而且我们在对上帝的认识上不断成长。

Well, and we grow in the knowledge of God.

但很多人不知道的一点是，这让我在书中反复思考很多不同的词语。

But see, one thing that a lot of people don't know, and this goes back to I wrestle in my book, as you know, with a lot of different words.

我曾考虑过用‘不’这个词，因为约翰使用‘不’这个词时说：我把这些事告诉你们，是要让你们知道自己有永生。

I thought about doing the word no because the word no, particularly as John uses it, John says, I have told you these things so that you may know you have eternal life.

我们通常从认知的角度理解‘不’这个词，比如你会说，从小到大，你确定如果你死了，你会去天堂吗？

We think of that word no in cognitive terms, like so that you would, you know, we would say growing up, do you know for sure that if you were to die, you'd go to heaven?

这是一种认知层面的确定性，但约翰在希腊文中使用的‘知道’这个词，并不是认知上的知道，而是经验性的知道。

And that's kind of a cognitive, like it leads to certainty, but that word know that John uses in Greek is not a cognitive knowing, it is an experiential knowing.

好的。

Okay.

我告诉你们这些事，并不是为了让你们了解上帝，那种‘了解’是认知层面的知道。

I have told you these things not so that you would know about God, that's cognitive knowing is know about.

‘知道’意味着亲身体验，我想到了我最喜欢的圣诞电影之一《极地特快》。

Know is to know I think of it as a you know that one of my favorite Christmas movies is Elf.

是的。

Yes.

他说，圣诞老人，我认识他。

And he says, Santa, I know him.

他的意思是，我亲身经历过他，对吧？

He's saying, I have experienced him, right?

对。

Right.

不是圣诞老人，我能说出关于他十件真实的事。

It's not Santa, I can name 10 things that are true about him.

是的。

Yeah.

是圣诞老人，我接触过这个人，所以有一种熟悉感，让我可以说：哦，对了，当我进入那个情境时，我知道上帝就在那里，因为我认识上帝，因为我体验过上帝。

It's Santa, I have encountered this person so that there is a familiarity so that I can say, oh yeah, when I step into that, I know God is in that because I know God because I've experienced God.

这就是约翰的意思。

That's what John is saying.

我告诉你们这些，是为了让体验神圣的大门被一脚踢开，现在你们可以迈入其中。

I have told you these things so that the door to experiencing the divine has been drop kicked open, and now you can step into that.

对大多数人来说，目标不是认识上帝，而是了解关于上帝的事。

For most people, goal is not to know God, it's to know about God.

所以他们一生都在忙忙碌碌地背诵新的、所谓的关于上帝的真理，而不是以开放、好奇的心态进入上帝的同在，说：上帝，请在你遇见我的地方遇见我，让我感受并体验你的同在，好让我更认识你，而不仅仅是更多地了解关于你。

And so they they spend their all of their lives scurrying around memorizing new, quote, truths about God rather than just entering into God's presence with that questioning open handedness to say, God encounter me where I am and let me feel and experience your presence so that I would know you better and not just know about you more.

天啊，尽管这听起来很荒谬，但圣诞老人和精灵的对比对我来说很容易理解，因为就像威尔·法瑞尔在那部电影里扮演的精灵那样，叫什么来着？

Man, as silly as it is, that elf Santa Claus comparison is is very easy for me to think about because if if Will Ferrell as the elf at what's his name in the movie?

是精灵吗？

Is it elf?

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

这是创伤。

It's It's trauma.

哦。

Oh.

每个人都在向他们的内心大声呼喊。

Everyone is screaming it into their at their

他们真的在大喊大叫。

They're literally yelling.

巴迪。

Buddy.

巴迪。

Buddy.

巴迪这个精灵。

Buddy the elf.

对了，就是这个。

There we go.

大家。

Everyone.

大家，你们已经喊了八秒钟了。

Everyone, you've been yelling it for eight seconds.

我知道。

I know.

对不起。

We're sorry.