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你不应该如此频繁地过度刺激交感神经系统。
You don't wanna stimulate the sympathetic nervous system so much for so often.
这可能会缩短你的寿命。
It can probably shorten your life.
有一类被称为生长激素释放刺激剂的东西，非常流行。
There's a whole category of what are called growth hormone secretagogues, which are very popular.
人们一听到勃起、减脂、能量提升、晒黑，就觉得太棒了。
People hear erection, fat loss, energy, tan, like, oh, great.
这可不是那种你为了去度假就去做的事情。
This isn't the kind of thing you do to, like, go on vacation.
你对这些东西必须非常小心。
You gotta be real careful with these things.
将近七分之一的美国人正在服用GLP-1药物。
Nearly one in seven Americans is taking a GLP-one drug.
百分之二十的人曾经尝试过。
Twenty percent have tried them.
你认为未来会是什么样子？
What do you think the future looks like?
理论上，你可以消除肥胖。
In theory, you could eradicate obesity.
人们最多可以减掉三分之一的体重。
People can lose up to a third of their body weight.
黑色素集中素能让人的皮肤从内部变黑，显著提升能量和性欲，同时大幅促进脂肪燃烧。
Melanotan, which makes people tan from the inside, raises energy and libido dramatically, fat loss dramatically.
BPC-157，即身体保护化合物。
BPC one five seven, body protection compound.
它并不合法，但也不一定被严格执行。
It's not legal, but it's not necessarily enforced.
它们标注为仅限研究用途，不用于人类。
They list them as for research purposes only, not for human use.
我的意思是，谁会在家里对这些肽类物质做研究？
I mean, who's doing research on these peptides at home?
只要你刺激细胞生长，就有可能出问题，进而长出肿瘤之类的东西。
Anytime you're stimulating cell growth, it could start going awry and may then get a tumor or something like that.
如果这在你的可接受范围内，那就由你决定。
If that's within your margins of brisk, then that's up to you.
我想谈谈过去五年里发生的事情。
I wanna talk about what's happened over the last five years.
从八十年代到九十年代，再到二十一世纪初，每个人都想知道能服用什么来增强免疫系统和健康。
Slowly through the eighties, through the nineties, and then the early two thousands, everyone wanted to know what they could take to improve their immune system and their health.
有一种非常有趣的药物，我认为很快就会变得更加流行，那就是
There's a very interesting drug that I think is gonna become far more popular soon, which is
疫情爆发时，人们想知道能服用什么来保护自己。
When the pandemic hit, people wanted to know what they could take to protect themselves.
最先流行起来的是维生素D，它足够安全，医生们也没有反对。
The first thing that broke out was vitamin D, innocuous enough that doctors didn't push back.
这为其他东西打开了大门。
That cracked the door open.
然后力量训练变得主流，随之而来的是对蛋白质、肌酸和咖啡因的关注。
Then resistance training went main mainstream, bringing with it an interest in protein, creatine, and caffeine.
疫苗争论变得激烈，晚间新闻的健康板块失去公信力，人们逐渐意识到：我们每个人都要为自己的健康负责。
The vaccine debate got heated, the evening news health segment lost credibility, and a realization set in: We are all responsible for our own health.
如今，讨论早已超越了Reductratide能否重塑肥胖问题；多肽正在通过配药房和灰色市场流通，我们可能正接近一个临界点——不再只是通过可穿戴设备阅读我们的生理数据，而是开始直接用神经技术编写它，从而控制睡眠、专注力和皮质醇。
Now the conversation has moved well past Reductratide could reshape obesity, peptides are circulating through compounding pharmacies and gray markets, and we may be approaching the point where we stop just reading our biology through wearables and start writing to it, using neurotechnologies that control sleep, focus, and cortisol directly.
a16z合伙人黛西·沃尔夫对话医生。
A16z partner Daisy Wolf speaks with Doctor.
安德鲁·休伯曼，斯坦福大学神经生物学与眼科学教授。
Andrew Huberman, professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford University.
医生。
Doctor.
休伯曼，欢迎来到a16z节目。
Huberman, welcome to the a16z show.
谢谢。
Thank you.
很高兴来到这里。
Delighted to be here.
我想谈谈过去五年发生的变化。
I wanna talk about what's happened over the last five years.
比如，自从你推出播客以来，消费者对自身健康的关注和兴趣急剧增加。
Like, since you launched your podcast, there's been an extreme increase in consumer interest and focus on their own health.
作为投资者，我们过去总觉得人们只愿意在所谓的性或美容药物上花钱，比如保法止和伟哥，但过去五年里这完全改变了，人们现在真的对健康很感兴趣。
Like, as an investor, we used to kind of think people were only willing to spend on what we'd like called sex or vanity drugs, like Propecia, Viagra, and that has totally changed in the last five years, and people are really interested in their health.
我想知道，你认为推动这一变化的主要原因是什么？你的角色又是什么？
I'm curious what you think the major drivers of that have been, and what your role has been in it.
我认为主要的推动力是出现了几种突破性的补充剂，改变了人们对医疗保健的看法，让他们决定要更主动地管理自己的健康。
So I think the major driver was there were a few breakthrough supplements that changed the way that people think about healthcare and decided they needed to be more self directed in their healthcare.
稍后再回到这一点。
Return to that in a second.
我认为另一件事是，健康与健身行业与主流医学以及自我护理发生了碰撞，方式如下。
I think the other thing is that the health and fitness industry collided with mainstream medicine and just self care in the following way.
我小时候，举重的人只有健美运动员、橄榄球运动员和要去参军的人。
When I was growing up, the only people that lifted weights were bodybuilders, football players, and people going off to the military.
有人告诉我，如果你举重，肌肉会变成脂肪。
I was told if you lift weights, the muscle will turn to fat.
如果你停止锻炼，就会觉得健身房里所有人都在使用类固醇。
If you stop, that everyone in gyms is on steroids.
我认为，从八十年代到九十年代，再到二十一世纪初，世界逐渐开始接受这样的观念：存在一些健身方式，能让我健康饮食并照顾好自己。
I think what happened is slowly through the eighties, through the nineties, and then the early two thousands, the world started accepting, oh, there are modes of fitness that allow me to eat healthily and take care of myself.
当然，这其中也有一些极端情况，但它们实际上与正常健康的生活方式是兼容的。
And yes, there's some extremes there, but that it was actually quite compatible with a normal healthy life.
所以在疫情期间，每个人都想知道——这发生在疫苗接种前后——自己可以服用什么来增强免疫系统和整体健康。
So what happened during the pandemic was everyone wanted to know, this was before and after the vaccines, wanted to know what they could take to improve their immune system and their health.
最先引起广泛关注的是维生素D。
And the first thing that sort of broke through was vitamin D.
也许是因为它可以通过阳光照射来增加，而每个人都会接触到一些阳光。
Maybe because it can be increased by sunlight and everyone gets some exposure to sunlight.
医生并没有说不要服用。
Doctors weren't saying don't take it.
关于它的研究结果有些混杂。
The studies on it were kind of mixed.
他们觉得，好吧，大家都开始补充一些维生素D了。
They were like, okay, everyone starts having some vitamin D around.
褪黑素热潮已经来过又过去了，但那是一种激素。
Then the melatonin craze had already kind of come and gone, but that's a hormone.
随着时间推移，人们对体能锻炼的兴趣逐渐增加，不再只是慢跑或有氧运动，而是力量训练开始兴起，嗯。
Then as time went on and people started getting more interested in physical fitness, not just jogging or doing cardio, but as resistance training came in Mhmm.
这不可避免地引发了人们对蛋白质需求的关注。
It inevitably brought with it an interest in protein needs.
那么，你会服用能增加每日蛋白质摄入的补充剂吗？
So are you gonna take supplements that increase your daily protein?
我们可以争论你到底需要更多还是更少的蛋白质。
We could argue about whether or not you need more or less protein.
我不一定认为每个人都需要每磅体重摄入一克蛋白质。
I don't necessarily think everyone needs one gram per pound of body weight.
有些人吃这么多会感觉像中毒一样，不堪重负。
Some people feel kind of poisoned, like overwhelmed when they eat that much.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为你得自己感受一下，你真正想要和需要的是什么。
I think you have to sense for yourself what you want and what you need.
但无论如何，人们开始意识到，如果我要锻炼，那么锻炼前喝咖啡似乎有帮助，然后逐渐地，现在又掀起了肌酸热潮。
But in any event, people started realizing, oh, this is interesting if I'm going to work out, then caffeine before that seems to help, and then gradually now the creatine craze.
挺有意思的是，当我十六七岁的时候，肌酸在健身房就已经很流行了。
It's funny, creatine was something that was popular in gyms when I was like 16 years old, 17 years old.
然后，哦，它还有各种认知方面的益处等等。
And then, oh, there are all these cognitive benefits, etcetera.
所以它们是随着健身热潮一起兴起的。
So they came in with the fitness.
维生素D是在新冠疫情期间流行起来的。
Vitamin D came in with COVID.
在新冠疫情期间，人们激烈地争论是否能信任政府提供的健康建议。
And then with COVID, people were very actively debating whether or not you could trust the government to give you what you needed to make you healthy.
无论你是支持疫苗、对疫苗持怀疑态度，还是反对疫苗，一个明显的事实是：每个人都意识到，我们每个人都要为自己的健康负责。
I think whether you were pro vaccine, vaccine skeptical, or anti vax, what became very clear is everyone realized some bell went off, we are all responsible for our own health.
完全正确。
Totally.
新冠疫情让人们重新意识到自己的生命有限，他们明白，即使每年做一次体检，也不意味着自己就健康、有保障或安全。
Think COVID reminded people of their own mortality, and they realized just because they go to a doctor for an annual physical does not mean they're healthy or protected or safe.
我们在封锁期间看到的许多心理健康问题，都与昼夜节律的紊乱有关。
A lot of the mental health issues that we saw during the lockdowns were disruption in circadian biology.
我知道人们待在室内的时间更长了。
I know people were indoors more.
饮酒也增多了。
There was more drinking.
还有其他很多问题。
There was a bunch of other issues.
但我只想说，一项来自英国、涉及超过八万人的最新研究显示，人们白天越明亮、夜晚越黑暗，他们的心理健康状况就越好。
But I'll just say there's a really beautiful study with more than 80,000 subjects out of The UK that shows, and this is a recent study that shows that the brighter people's days are and the darker their nights, the healthier they are mentally.
这一点对于强迫症、焦虑症、躁狂症、精神分裂症和重度抑郁症患者尤其明显。
This is especially true for people with OCD, anxiety, mania, schizophrenia, major depression.
基本上，所有精神健康问题都会因白天昏暗、夜晚明亮而加重。
Basically every psychiatric challenge is made worse by dim days and bright nights.
因此，我们在新冠期间看到的是，人们在昼夜节律上完全迷失了方向。
So what we saw during COVID was people were just drifting in a circadian sense.
这就像把人们关进洞穴里做洞穴实验，然后新冠就来了，对吧？
It was as if we had put people into a cave and done the cave experiment, and then there was COVID, right?
然后还有疫苗相关的各种事情，说实话，那不是我的专业领域。
And then there's all the vaccine stuff, which frankly isn't my domain.
但对我来说，最重要的是给人们提供一些工具，帮助他们掌控自己的昼夜节律，比如通过长时间呼气来缓解即时焦虑，这种方法能简单地降低心率。
But it was so important to me to give people tools to be able to control their circadian biology, momentary anxiety with things like long exhale breathing, which just simply reduces heart rate.
我们通过一种叫做呼吸性窦性心律不齐的现象了解到，这涉及迷走神经。
We know through something called respiratory sinus arrhythmia involves the vagus nerve.
迷走神经向大脑传递大量关于身体的感官信息，但其中一部分迷走神经是下行的运动神经，负责控制心率。
The vagus is sending a bunch of sensory information about the body to the brain, but then a percentage of the vagus is descending its motor, it controls the heart rate.
因此，当你有意识地呼气时，你会减缓心率。
So when you exhale deliberately, you slow your heart rate down.
你不需要进行呼吸训练。
You don't need to do breath work.
如果你想平静下来，只需做一个长呼气。
If you want to calm down, you do a long exhale.
这些简单的小方法都有明确的科学机制支持，这正是我们最初向外界推广的内容。
And so these little simple things for which there's mechanistic science to support them, that was really what we started putting out into the world.
所以我认为这就是发生的事情。
So I think that's what happened.
然后我们就这样了，我当时真的在一个壁橱里，身边是我的斗牛犬和制作人，还有一个麦克风，就这样向世界讲话。
And then there we were, you know, in my I was literally in a closet with my bulldog and my producer and a microphone and just talking out to the world.
因此，人们开始成为自己健康的主要倡导者。
And so people became really strong advocates for themselves.
他们意识到：天哪。
And they're like, oh, shit.
我得去想办法照顾好自己。
I need to go figure out how to take care of myself.
你怎么看待MAHA在这一 broader 健康觉醒中的作用？
What do you make of of MAHA's role in this broader health awakening?
你认为这对我们的健康会产生什么影响？
What do you think the effects will be on our health?
我故意没有加入MAHA的任何小组，以便保持我说出自己真实想法的灵活性。
Well, I very deliberately not joined a MAHA panel to maintain the flexibility that I want to say what I believe.
一个很好的例子是，我认为他们的一些做法方向是对的，比如改善食品供应，鼓励人们采纳健康行为。
A good example would be, I think that some of the things they're doing are directionally right, trying to improve the food supply, get people embracing healthy behaviors.
这些都和《休伯曼实验室》的理念非常相似。
These are very much like Huberman Lab things.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Mhmm.
同时，我认为癌症的mRNA疫苗是一种变革性的、了不起的、挽救生命的技术。
At the same time, I, for instance, think that the mRNA vaccines for cancer are a transformative, incredible, lifesaving technology.
而且很多资金已经被削减了。
And a lot of funding has been cut.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得，这挺有意思的。
I think that well, it's interesting.
因此，针对呼吸系统疾病的mRNA疫苗资金被削减了。
So the funding for mRNA vaccines for respiratory illnesses has been cut.
我听说，我不确定这是否属实，癌症mRNA疫苗的资金并没有被削减。
I was told, and I don't know if this is true, that the funding for mRNA vaccines for cancers was not cut.
但当时关于这一点的沟通非常复杂，以至于我上了比尔·马赫的节目，说削减癌症研究的资金是愚蠢的。
But there was some very tricky messaging around that at that time, so much so that because I'd gone on Bill Maher and I said, It's foolish to cut this funding for the cancer research.
但后来我接到了华盛顿的电话，说：我们并没有削减那笔资金。
But I got a call from Washington and said, We didn't cut the money for that.
我们削减的是另一笔资金。
We cut the money for the other thing.
我说：好吧。
I said, Okay.
但双方的沟通策略都故意被扩大化了。
But the messaging has been deliberately broad on both sides.
所以现在的挑战是，让我们直呼其名吧。
So the challenge has been that because we now let's just call a duck a duck.
我们有右翼媒体，也有左翼媒体。
We've got right wing media, we've got left wing media.
还有一些中间派人物，比如比尔·马赫，他们只是在客观地发表看法。
And then we've got a few people in the middle like Bill Maher, who are kind of like just calling shots.
我注意到你上了比尔·马赫的节目。
I see you went on Bill Maher.
那期节目真的很棒。
Was a really good episode.
谢谢。
So thank you.
但大部分情况下，这些新闻媒体的点击量和广告收入机制是：不要对另一方说任何正面的话，即使有有利的信息，也要用宽泛的标签来抹黑。
But for the most part, the way that clicks and ad revenue, etcetera, is working for these news outlets is don't say anything positive about the other side, even if there's something that's favorable, and really paint with a broad brush.
双方都严重犯了这个错误。
And both sides are really guilty of that.
左翼一直不支持我认为方向正确的举措，比如改善食品供应、让人们更活跃等，因为他们批评说这只是在泰坦尼克号上重新摆放椅子。
The left has been not supportive of the moves that I think are directionally correct, which are improving the food supply, getting people more active, etcetera, because their criticism is that's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
这就是他们的批评。
That's their criticism.
我的立场是，任何能让人朝着自身健康方向前进的举措——比如积极管理自身健康、调整昼夜节律、减轻焦虑、改善睡眠、吃得更干净、多运动——都非常棒。
My stance is anything that gets people moving in the direction of their own health, doing things that are proactive for their own health, circadian health, reducing anxiety, improving sleep, eating cleaner food, more movement, is fantastic.
这是我想看到的唯一一件事吗？
Is it the only thing I'd like to see done?
不是。
No.
但它确实很重要，因此我会支持我认为好的事情，也会批评我认为不好的事情。
But it certainly is important, and so I'll be supportive of the things I think are good, and I'm going to criticize the things that I think are not good.
我会继续这样做。
And I'm just going to continue to do that.
这意味着我朋友更少，敌人更多。
It means I have fewer friends and more enemies.
我现在已经习惯了。
I'm kind of used to that by now.
你在网上的个性。
Your personality on the Internet.
我经常被称作影响者或健康播客。
I often get referred to as an influencer or a health podcaster.
他们似乎忘记了我接受过的科学训练，但我理解。
They seem to have forgotten my science training, but I get it.
如今五年过去了，我真正明白了媒体是如何运作的。
Now after five years, I really understand how media works.
是的。
Yeah.
部分原因是播客频道的规模，至少在健康领域，已经超过了传统媒体机构。
In part because podcast channels have become bigger than a lot of the at least in the health domain than the more traditional houses.
所以我认为他们称我为MAHA播客。
So I think I've been called a MAHA podcaster.
我不知道他们是怎么得出这个称呼的，因为我根本不记得——
I don't know how they got to that because I don't ever recall-
你其实比MAHA出现得更早。
You also predate MAHA.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
他们是从‘不，我开玩笑的’那里拿来的。
They took it from No, I'm kidding.
是的。
Yeah.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我确实评论过食物指南。
I did make a comment about the food guidelines.
我说我觉得大方向是对的，但我希望看到更多蔬菜和纤维，以及一些低糖的发酵食品。
I said that I thought it was directionally right, but that I would have liked to see more vegetables and fiber, some low sugar fermented foods.
看到这些观点遭到攻击，真的很有趣。
And it's so interesting to see how that would get attacked.
如果我看到类似这样的攻击，我会想，天啊，他们一定是报酬太低，或者太迫切想写点什么来赚点钱付房租了，居然花时间做这种事。
If I see something like that, that I said getting attacked, then I think, wow, they must be so poorly paid, or just so desperate to write something for whatever, $500 or a thousand bucks to make rent, that like, to spend time on that.
我确实认为，我们对什么是新闻的标准已经大幅下降了。
I do think that there's been a real drop in standards of what we consider news.
好的。
Okay.
这让我感到难过，说实话。
And that makes me sad, frankly.
这让我感到悲伤，因为它贬低了整个健康领域。
It saddens me because it cheapens the entire health space.
因此，很容易指出健康博主和生物黑客是如何污染这个领域的。
And so it's very easy to point at how, you know, health influencers and biohackers have have contaminated the space.
但我认为，实际上传统媒体更应该承担责任，因为我们真的在争论膳食指南是否完美吗？
But I think I actually think that traditional media is is more to blame because are we really arguing about whether or not the food guidelines are are perfect?
它们被说成是，哦，现在它们在大力推广肉类。
They they were cast as, oh, you know, now they're promoting a lot of meat.
不是的。
No.
那不是它的本意。
That's not what it was.
如果你仔细看，真的去读过原文，就会发现谷物、水果和蔬菜的份量至少和他们推荐的肉类份量一样多。
If you looked, you act if you actually read it, the servings of grains and fruits and vegetables were at least as high as what they were recommending for meat.
这简直太荒谬了。
So it's it's just silly.
这简直太荒谬了。
It's just silly.
这就像是红衬衫、蓝衬衫那样，就像操场上的争执一样。
It's it's like red shirts, it's like red shirts, blue shirts kind of like a playground.
完全正确。
Totally.
党派立场在其中起作用，事情就变得混乱了。
Partisanship plays, and it gets glitchy.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我现在很享受这种状态，我喜欢自己不属于任何阵营的感觉。
So I'm I'm enjoying now I'm in this place where I love that I don't belong to any camp.
是的。
Yeah.
我感到非常自由。
I feel very free.
有人请我为《纽约时报》写一篇关于mRNA疫苗的评论文章，我说：当然乐意，但我听说——不确定是不是真的——他们并没有削减癌症研究的经费，这就让这篇评论很难写了。
I've been asked to write op eds for the New York Times about the mRNA vaccine thing, and I said, listen, I'd be happy to do it, except I was told, I don't know if it's true, but I was told that they didn't cut the funding for cancer, so that makes it a tough op ed to write.
同时，我也被邀请为MAHA以及NIH提供意见。
At the same time, I've been asked to give my input to folks at MAHA, and certainly NIH.
我一直在幕后努力，试图确保基础研究的经费不被削减，虽然我可能不会为此领功，但看起来经费可能会有2%的增加。
I've worked very hard behind the scenes to try and ensure that funding for basic research is not cut, and it looks like I'm not going take credit for this at all, but it looks like there might be a 2% increase.
维持NIH基础研究经费得到了两党的支持。
There's bipartisan support to maintain funding for NIH research, basic research.
所以你没法把我归入任何阵营。
So you can't put me in a camp.
是的
Yep.
对此我感到很高兴。
And I'm happy about that.
我们来谈谈多肽吧。
Let's talk about peptides.
对。
Yeah.
近七分之一的美国人正在服用GLP-1药物。
Nearly one in seven Americans is taking a GLP-one drug.
百分之二十的人曾尝试过。
Twenty percent have tried them.
这些数字仍在持续上升。
These numbers continue to rise.
你提到过retrutide、GLP和礼来公司的研发管线。
You've talked about retrutide, GLP, and Lilly's pipeline.
你认为在GLP方面，这个融合器看起来是什么样子的？
What do you think the fusger looks like as it regards to kind of GLPs?
然后我们再谈谈其他肽类药物。
And then let's talk about other peptides after that.
是的。
Yeah.
我希望这个类比能成立。
I'm hoping this analogy works.
你知道，我小时候，如果你买得起一辆好车，你就会有一辆好车。
You know, when I was growing up, if you could afford a nice car, you had a nice car.
否则，路上有很多破旧的车。
Otherwise, there were a lot of kind of junky cars on the road.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后出现了信贷这种东西，让每个人都能拥有一辆好车或者租一辆好车。
And then this thing called credit came along where everyone could have a nice car or lease a nice car.
所以你真的看不到那种破旧的车。
So you don't really see that, like, run down cars.
某些地方倒是有的，但总体上真的看不到。
You know, you do some places, but you really don't.
我觉得GLP也是同样的道理。
I I see the GLP as the same way.
过去，某个年龄阶段身材健硕，意味着你经常锻炼；但现在，GLP让人们即使不锻炼也能保持健康体重。
It used to be that being really fit at a certain age reflected the fact that do a lot of exercise, And I think that the GLPs make it such that people can be a healthy weight without having to exercise.
不过我们知道，人们尤其是应该进行抗阻训练来抵消肌肉流失，但Reta TruTide在礼来公司已经完成了三期临床试验。
We know however that people should resistance train in particular to offset the muscle loss, but Reta TruTide went through phase three at Lilly.
人们在相对较短的时间内可以减掉多达三分之一的体重，同时还能一定程度地保留肌肉。
People can lose up to a third of their body weight in a pretty short amount of time with some degree of muscle sparing.
所以这也被叫做GLP-3。
So this is also called GLP three.
它似乎也规避了一些先前GLP药物带来的副作用，当然，没有任何药物是完美的。
It also seems to bypass some of the side effects that some of the previous GLPs created, although no drug is perfect, of course.
但让我觉得Retitrutide真正有趣的原因是，人们已经意识到，通过复合药房，可以以更低的成本或服用更低剂量的GLP药物。
But the real reason retitrutide is interesting to me is that already people have realized that they can get much lower cost and or take lower doses of GLP drugs by going through compounding pharmacies.
礼来公司正在竭尽全力确保复合药房不销售Retitrutide。
Lilly is working very hard to make sure that compounding pharmacies do not sell reditrutide.
复合药房和灰色市场渠道已经出售Retitrutide。
Compounding pharmacies and gray market sources already sell reditrutide.
许多人已经在服用它。
Many people are already taking it.
这并不合法，但也没有被严格执法。
It's not legal, but it's not necessarily enforced.
我并不是建议人们去这么做，但我认为这将改变社会——理论上，你有可能彻底消除肥胖。
I'm not necessarily suggesting people do, but I think it's going to change society where in theory, you could eradicate obesity, in theory.
五年后，你认为有多少比例的美国人会使用GLP药物？
Five years from now, what percent of Americans do you think are on GLPs?
我倾向于认为，仍然有一些人，因为他们一直保持良好的生活习惯，所以并不需要这些药物。
Well, I like to think that there's still some people who, because they've exercised good habits up until now, don't need them.
我不确定为什么我喜欢这样，但我认为，如果能不靠药物就获得同样的效果，那当然更好。
I don't know why I like that, but I suppose if you can get away without having to take a drug and get the same result, that's better.
我猜超过一半的人，尤其是来自肥胖高发家庭或社区的人，都会服用这些药物。
I'm guessing that more than half, especially people who come from families or communities where there's a lot of obesity, are are gonna be taking them.
他们很可能服用的剂量低于处方剂量。
Probably taking them at lower dosages than are prescribed.
我认为你无法控制这些仿制药房和灰色市场。
And I don't think that you can control the compounding pharmacies in gray market.
主要是因为，我可能在这里错了，所以我想谨慎一点，但我没听说过任何严重的不良事件。
Mostly because, and I could be wrong here, so I want to be careful, but I'm not aware of a major adverse event.
这有点像80年代和90年代人们对类固醇的讨论，但那时有人因为暴怒而丧命。
You know, it's a little bit the same way that steroids were discussed in the 80s and 90s, but people were dying going into rages.
他们当时发现，人们出现了很多问题。
They were coming up with know, they're having a lot of problems.
我没听说过有人因为服用BPC 157而死亡。
I'm not aware of anyone dying from taking BPC one hundred fifty seven.
所以还有很多实验空间。
So there's a lot more room for experimentation.
我不是建议人们这么做，但容错空间似乎更大。
I'm not suggesting people do that, but the margins for error seem to be greater.
是的。
Yeah.
我的理解是，这些复方药物本身可能总体上是安全的，但人们担心的是污染或脑膜炎爆发等问题——过去复方药房由于监管不如传统制药严格，曾发生过类似事件。
I mean, my understanding is it's not the like the compounded drugs are probably generally safe, but it's the fear of contamination or a meningitis outbreak or whatever it's happened in the past with compounding pharmacies being just less regulated than traditional drug manufacturing.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这也很有趣，因为当我观察这个肽领域的发展时，它主要围绕GLP类药物和BPC 157（身体保护化合物）展开，这些物质在动物模型中可能加速愈合，也可能不会。
I think it's really interesting too because as I watch this peptide space emerge, which has mainly been been around the GLPs, right, and BPC 157, body protection compound, which may or may not accelerate healing in animal models.
它显然能促进软骨生长、神经再生和血管生成，但如果你有肿瘤，就不希望肿瘤被血管化，这有点令人担忧。
It's very clear that it can improve cartilage growth, nerve regrowth, as well as vascular growth, which is a little bit worrisome if you have a tumor, you don't want to vascularize the tumor.
没有人能对自己进行严格的对照实验，因为他们会说：‘我注射了肩膀，恢复得快多了’，但这些物质是全身起效的，所以你无法比较两个肩膀的情况。
No one has the right control experiment in themselves because they'll say, oh, I injected my shoulder, and I healed so much more quickly, but it goes systemically, so you can't compare the two shoulders.
但没人愿意当对照组。
So but no one wants to be in the control group.
人们只是假设那是BPC，于是就开始服用。
And the people are just assuming it's BPC, they're taking it.
我的意思是，我想我们到现在应该已经听说有不良事件了，但谁知道呢，也许某天会突然冒出什么问题。
I mean, I think we probably would have heard of an adverse event by now, but who knows, maybe some something will pop up.
我认为，特别是关于GLP类物质，曾经有过很多争论。
I think that when it comes to the GLPs in particular, there was a lot of debate for a while.
健身圈的人说，哦，你不需要吃药，只要吃对、多运动就行了。
The exercise fitness community were saying, oh, you know, you don't want to take a drug, you just need to eat right and exercise.
我不同意。
I disagree.
我认为有些人积累了过多的脂肪组织，这已经改变了他们的新陈代谢，甚至可能改变了大脑回路和食欲，而这些药物对他们真的非常有帮助。
I think that some people have accumulated so much adipose tissue that it's modified their metabolism, and even perhaps even brain circuitry and appetite, that it really, really helps them.
显然，行为改变和这些药物的结合才是最佳方案。
And obviously behaviors and these drugs are going to be the best combination.
或者如果你能靠行为调整就更好了。
Or just the behaviors if you can get away with them.
我从未使用过GLP，所以无法谈论使用它的体验。
I've never taken a GLP, so I can't talk about the experience of it.
我尝试过几种肽类物质。
I have tried various peptides.
我试过BPC。
I've tried BPC.
我不确定它是否对我有帮助。
I don't know if it helped me or not.
我并没有受伤。
I didn't have an injury.
我没有注意到自己从运动中恢复得更快。
I didn't notice that I recovered any more quickly from exercise.
我试过松果素作为助眠肽。
I've tried pinealine as a sleep peptide.
它让我每晚有三个小时的快速眼动睡眠，这相当棒。
It gave me three hours a night of REM sleep, which was pretty awesome.
人类数据非常少。
Very little human data.
所以现在我只是——
So now I just-
你还在继续用吗？
Are you continuing that?
不，我现在只服用AGZ，这是实话。
No, I just take AGZ, and that's the truth.
所以你希望有更多数据吗？
So you want more data?
我对使用某种物质有点担心，因为在动物模型中，它被证明既能改善松果体细胞的功能，也可能促进其增殖，而这些细胞负责产生褪黑素，或者松果体中的其他细胞。
I'm a little scared about taking something that in animal models has been shown to both improve the function of, but maybe also the proliferation of pinealocytes, which produce melatonin, or they and other cells in the pineal.
因为任何刺激细胞生长的行为都可能失控，进而导致肿瘤之类的问题。
Because anytime you're stimulating cell growth, it could start going awry and then get a tumor or something like that.
也许你可以更广泛地谈谈非GLP肽的热潮。
Maybe you can just kind of speak more broadly about the non GLP peptide craze.
中国肽类物质在黑市上有很多活动。
There's been a lot of black market activity around Chinese peptides.
我
I
我很喜欢这个术语是怎么出现的。
love how that term has come about.
那玩意儿看起来很可疑。
There's look smack thing.
什么是肽？
What is a peptide?
你推荐什么？
What do you recommend?
人们应该避免什么？
What should people avoid?
简而言之，肽就是一段短链的氨基酸，构成蛋白质。
Short course, a peptide is just a short chain of amino acids, make up a protein.
胰岛素是一种肽。
Insulin's a peptide.
到目前为止我们讨论的所有东西都是肽。
All the things we're talking about up until now are peptides.
所以，'肽'这个词已经被借用，用来指代某一类特定的肽。
So the phrase peptides has been co opted to mean a certain of a click of peptides.
就像人们一听到'类固醇'这个词，就会想到健美运动员，但雌激素也是一种类固醇激素。
Just like the word steroids in people's minds, they think bodybuilders, but estrogen is a steroid hormone.
人们听到这一点时总是很惊讶。
People are always shocked to hear that.
所以如果你服用雌激素，你就是在使用类固醇。
So if you take estrogen, you're on steroids.
好吧，但我们都知道，当人们说'使用类固醇'时，他们指的是什么。
Okay, but we know what people are saying when they say on steroids.
所以要么是雄激素类固醇，要么是雌激素类固醇，还有皮质类固醇。
So either androgenic steroids, they're estrogenic steroids, there's corticosteroid.
好的。
Okay.
同样地，也存在一些用于减少饥饿感和食欲的肽类，比如GLP类。
Just in the same way, there are peptides that are to reduce hunger and appetite, the GLPs.
Reditrutide是最新一代的药物，由礼来公司即将上市，但目前已在市场销售。
Reditrutide being the newest generation, one soon to be released through Lilly, but already out on the market.
这些肽类通过灰色市场销售，遍布整个互联网，商家声称仅供研究用途，不用于人类。
From gray market sources are these sources that are sold all over the Internet that are American or Canadian or whatever, and they list them as for research purposes only, not for human use.
但他们明知人们会服用这些产品，依然在销售。
But they're selling them knowing that people are taking them.
我的意思是，谁会在家里拿这些肽类做研究？
I mean, who's doing research on these peptides at home?
对吧？
Right?
这不属于你，除非你是我家隔壁的实验室，或者其他人的实验室。
This is not your unless you're my lab down the road or someone else's lab.
当然，人们确实在使用这些物质。
Of course, people are taking these.
这些通常来自标榜‘仅供研究用途，非人用’的灰色市场，纯度高达99%，意味着大部分杂质已被去除，但我仍担心长期反复注射含有1%左右脂多糖的物质，可能引发炎症。
They tend to be the gray market sources for research purposes only, not for human use, tend to be 99% purity, which means they've been cleaned of most things, except I do worry a bit about repeated injection of substance that contains 1%, say, lipopolysaccharide, which can cause inflammation.
也许单次注射不会有问题，但长期反复使用，以及其他污染物，就令人担忧了。
So maybe not in one injection, but maybe repeatedly over time, as well as other contaminants.
黑市来源。
Black market sources.
当你听到‘中国肽’时，顺便说一句，我们并不知道所有这些都来自中国。
When you hear Chinese peptides, our companies online We don't know that it's all coming from China, by the way.
它们在这类问题中受影响最严重，但人们提到‘中国肽’或‘黑市肽’时，通常是指那些在网上购买雷替鲁肽的人，而你根本无法确定买到的是否真是雷替鲁肽。
They sort of get hit the hardest in this, but people refer to Chinese and black market peptides as people who are going online buying retrutide, and you have no idea if it's retrutide.
相比之下，灰色市场的供应商虽然未必最纯净，但会提供一份检测报告，写明经过检测，如果报告上写的是雷替鲁肽，或BPC-157，那瓶子里装的就确实是这些成分，别无他物。
In contrast to the gray market sources where they might not be the cleanest, they but give you a data sheet that says this was tested, and if it says retreotide, if it says BPC-one hundred fifty seven, that's what's actually in the vial and only that.
好的，这是一个重要的区别。
Okay, so that's an important distinction.
配药药房一直在配制各种物质，以比制药公司更低的价格销售药物。
Compounding pharmacies have been compounding all sorts of things, selling drugs more cheaply than drug companies.
正因如此，它们颇具争议。
They are controversial for that reason.
我们可以谈谈这个。
We could talk about that.
但还有其他有趣的肽类物质。
But other peptides that are interesting.
不好意思。
Excuse me.
BPC-157用于组织修复、减轻炎症，其LD50值似乎非常高。
BPC one hundred fifty seven for tissue repair, reducing inflammation, seems to have very, very high LD 50.
还没有人真正发现它，但人们已经注射了极其大量的这种物质。
No one's really discovered it, and people have been injecting enormously high amounts of this.
我还没听说过任何不良反应。
I've not heard of an adverse event.
不过我不建议这么做，因为你不想让肝脏或大脑里可能存在的小肿瘤血管化。
I don't recommend doing that, however, because you don't want to vascularize a little tumor you might have on your liver or in your brain.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
但如果是短期使用来治疗损伤，只要在你的风险承受范围内，那就要看你自己的选择了。
But maybe for short term use to treat an injury, if that's within your margins of risk, you know, I mean, that's up to you.
理想情况下，如果你能从配药房或这些灰色市场渠道获取，就不要直接去黑市。
Ideally, you'd get it from a compounding pharmacy if you can, or from one of these gray market sources before you would go to a black market source.
局部注射似乎比全身使用效果更好。
Injecting locally seems to be better than taking it systemically.
口服形式的BPC-157，有多少能进入你的身体组织，目前还不清楚。
Taking the oral forms, it's unclear how much of that BP one hundred fifty seven gets into your bodily tissues.
正如我提到的，褪黑素在助眠方面变得非常流行。
Pinealin, as I mentioned, for sleep has become very popular.
有一类被称为生长激素分泌agogue的物质，非常受欢迎。
There's a whole category of what are called growth hormone secretagogues, which are very popular.
特赛莫瑞林、伊帕莫瑞林、塞莫瑞林、MK677，这些物质都能刺激垂体释放生长激素，但它们本身并不是生长激素。
Tesamorelin, ipamorelin, sermorelin, MK677, these all stimulate the pituitary to release growth hormone, but they themselves are not growth hormone.
它们会增加你夜间深度睡眠的时间。
They will increase the amount of deep sleep that you get at night.
通常你应在睡前三十分钟服用这些物质，最好在此之前几个小时内没有进食，以促进生长激素和IGF-1的分泌。
Typically you'll take these thirty minutes before sleep, ideally not having eaten anything in the previous few hours, increased growth hormone and IGF-one.
我刚才提到的一些物质是获得FDA批准的。
Some of those things I just mentioned are FDA approved.
比如特赛莫瑞林，我记不清具体的适应症了，但用于促进身高增长，或术后组织修复，增加生长激素可能有益。
The cermorelin for instance, I forget the exact indication, but to increase height for instance, or tissue repair after surgery, increasing growth hormone can be beneficial.
有些人直接使用生长激素，但生长激素非常昂贵，比如索马特罗、奥姆特罗。
Some people will just take growth hormone, but growth hormone's very expensive, so somatotrope, omnitrope.
因此，这些肽类物质被广泛使用。
So that's what these peptides are very commonly used.
这些物质都经过了研究，因此只要来源可靠，我们对刚才提到的那些物质有大量的人体数据，而像松果素和BPC-157则几乎没有任何人体数据。
Those have been researched, so assuming the sourcing is clean, we have a lot of human data on the ones I just described, as opposed to pinealine and BPC one hundred fifty seven, where you have basically no human data.
因此，像黑色素细胞刺激素这样的物质有大量人体数据，它能从内部使人变黑，显著提升能量和性欲，并大幅减脂。
So there are human data on things like melanotan, which makes people tan from the inside, raises energy and libido dramatically, fat loss dramatically.
我们把这归类为‘极致愉悦’类别吗？
We put that in the lux maxing category?
我不确定，也许是‘能量提升’之类的类别。
I don't know, or energy maxing or something.
是的，这还挺有趣的。
Yeah, it's kind of interesting.
实际上，黑色素细胞刺激素和一些类似的肽类药物已被FDA批准用于治疗女性性欲低下。
Mean, there's a lot about So melanotin and some similar peptides have been FDA approved for hyposexuality in women.
我认为Vyleesi就是针对女性的药物。
I think that Vyleesi is the drug for women.
男性也会使用。
Men take it too.
我得说，这些药物比如黑色素刺激素风险很高。
I have to say those drugs Melanitan is very risky.
有些皮肤颜色变化，比如皮肤发橙，可能是永久性的。
Some of the skin color changes, the kind of oranging of the skin can be permanent.
你得明白，这可不是为了去度假才做的事。
You have to this isn't the kind of thing you do to go on vacation.
对吧？
Right?
它可能带来更持久的后果，不是
It might have more permanent Not the
婚前。
pre wedding.
男性使用有发生阴茎异常勃起的风险，你知道，那可能是你最后一次勃起，可能持续八小时，但之后就再也无法勃起了，还可能损伤神经和阴茎组织。
There's a risk for man of priapism, which you know, the last erection you may ever have, it might last eight hours, but that might be the last one you ever It can cause damage to the nerves and penile tissue.
所以人们这里一听到勃起、减脂、提神、变黑，就觉得太棒了，但你得小心，这些东西确实容易被滥用。
So people here are like, erection, fat loss, energy, tan, like, oh great, know, and you think you got to be real careful with these things with they do get abused.
但我刚刚提到这些，整个黑色素通路非常有趣，因为它能提升多巴胺水平。
But I just mentioned these things, and the melanotin whole pathway is super interesting because it raises dopamine.
多巴胺和色素沉着通过一种叫做酪氨酸酶的酶联系在一起，这里不深入技术细节，但有些动物在冬天看起来像白化病，眼睛却是深色的，比如北极狐；到了夏天，阳光照射这条通路，增加多巴胺，使毛发变色，然后它们就开始交配。
Dopamine and pigmentation are linked through an enzyme called tyrosinase, not to get technical here, but some animals look like they're albino in the winter, except they have dark eyes, like an arctic fox, and then in the summer sunlight comes, hits this pathway, increases dopamine, pigments the fur, and they breed.
因此，阳光、多巴胺、繁殖力以及这些因素之间存在关联。
So there's a relationship between sunlight, dopamine, fecundity, and these kinds of things.
这相当有趣，对吧？
It's pretty interesting, right?
所以人们正在服用这些物质，它们要么通过黑市获得——我不推荐，要么通过灰色市场——有风险，或者通过配药药房，所以我们现在逐渐进入更严格的层级，最后才是制药公司销售的产品。
So people are taking these things, and they're getting them either through black market, which I don't recommend, gray market, which is risky, or compounding pharmacies, so now we're sort of ascending levels of stringency, and then you get to pharma sells it.
你可以从某家制药公司购买舒梅林。
You can buy surmerellin from one of the drug companies.
你很快就能从礼来公司购买雷特罗肽。
You can buy retreotide soon from Lilly.
价格通常会高出三到十倍。
The cost tends to be, you know, 3 to 10 times higher.
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剂量建议通常更高。
The dosage recommendations tend to be higher.
人们已经摸索出一些自行进行的非正规实验，发现通过服用更低剂量的物质也能达到效果。
People have figured out doing their own kind of rogue experiments that you can get by taking much lower doses of things.
所以，我认为GLP类药物一个更有趣的用途，是我从通过复合药房和灰色市场获取药物的人那里听说的——你其实可以用低得多的剂量达到效果。
So I think one of the more interesting uses of GLPs that I'm hearing about mainly from people getting it from compounding pharmacy and grain market sources is that you can get by with taking much lower doses.
有些人用它来减少对酒精的渴望。
Some people are using it for reducing alcohol craving.
是的。
Mhmm.
用于普遍减轻认知噪音，我觉得这相当有趣。
For reducing just cognitive noise more generally, which I think is pretty interesting.
这或许是个好机会，提一下关于专注力的相关内容，因为我们本来就要聊这个。
And this is probably a good opportunity to just mention things for focus since we were going to talk about that.
你知道，如果你真有大把空闲时间（我确信你没有，因为现在没人有空闲时间），X平台上有一些关于提升专注力药物的相当有趣的讨论，因为所有那些极客都喜欢专注地编程和工作。
You know, if you ever have in your copious amounts of spare time, which I'm sure you never have because no one seems to have it anymore, there's some pretty interesting conversations that have taken place on X about drugs for focus, because all the all the other hackers like to focus and program and work.
我们都听说过莫达非尼，它被用来治疗白天过度嗜睡。
And so we all have heard of modafinil, used to treat excessive daytime sleepiness.
它可能有轻微的认知增强效果，但主要还是帮助集中注意力。
It may have a slight cognitive enhancing effect, but it's mostly a focusing thing.
当你睡眠不足时，它能增加能量。
Increases energy when you have poor sleep.
它最初是为治疗发作性睡病和其他相关疾病而设计的。
It was designed to treat narcolepsy and other things.
有比阿得拉尔更好的药吗？
There Is a better than Adderall?
它和阿得拉尔不同，因为阿得拉尔是一种更典型的安非他明类兴奋剂。
Different than Adderall because Adderall is more of an amphetamine type stimulant.
最近华盛顿大学发表了一篇非常有趣的研究论文，显示阿得拉尔本身并不是关键，但利他林和其他兴奋剂提升专注力的效果，几乎和一整晚好睡眠一样好。
Very interesting paper came out recently from Wash U showing that Adderall, it wasn't really Adderall specifically, but Ritalin and other stimulants seem to improve focus about as well as a good night's sleep.
但很多人并没有获得他们所需的优质睡眠。
But a lot of people aren't getting the good night's sleep they need.
也是因为这个。
Because of it also.
对，没错。
Right, exactly.
它并不是直接提升专注力，而是提升警觉性，让你能够更好地分配专注力。
And it's not increasing focus per se, it's increasing alertness, allows you to allocate your focus.
据我所知，目前还没有任何药物能直接提升专注力。
This is as far as I know, there are no drugs to increase focus per se.
但现在这两者已经足够紧密地联系在一起了。
Now the two things are tethered enough.
你知道，你需要警觉性来开启专注力。
You know, you need alertness to alertness gates focus.
睡眠决定警觉性，除非你服用像阿得拉或莫达非尼这样的药物。
Sleep gates alertness, unless you take a drug like Adderall or modafinil.
有一种非常有趣的药物，我认为很快就会变得更加流行，它已经获得FDA批准，叫Sunosi，拼写是s-u-n-o-s-i，被批准用于治疗白天过度嗜睡，在ADHD的临床试验中表现非常出色。
There's a very interesting drug that I think is going to become far more popular soon, is already FDA approved called Sunosi, s u n o s I, which is approved for excessive daytime sleepiness, did very well in a trial for ADHD.
而且这种药在某种程度上更‘脏’，因为它不仅作用于我之前提到的那些药物所针对的多巴胺和去甲肾上腺素通路。
And it's a little bit of a dirtier drug in the sense that it doesn't just hit the dopamine and norepinephrine pathways that some of the other drugs I mentioned do.
它还会轻微地影响血清素。
It also hits serotonin a little bit.
它带来的警觉性和专注力提升要温和得多。
Seems to have a much gentler arc of alertness and focus.
我得承认，我试过。
I confess I've tried it.
我的意思是，效果有点过头了，我当时就想：我还是先继续用咖啡因吧。
I mean, it was a bit too much, and I was like, I don't I think I'm going stick with caffeine for now.
有些人会服用安非他酮，那种非典型的抗抑郁药，嗯。
People will take Wellbutrin, the anti the atypical antidepressant Mhmm.
低剂量时用于轻微提升去甲肾上腺素和多巴胺，以增强专注力。
At low dosages to increase epinephrine, dopamine a little bit for focus.
我的意思是，很多人都在这么做。
I mean, people are doing this all the time.
尼古丁。
Nicotine.
所以现在有很多人使用兴奋剂来提高专注力。
So there's a lot of stimulant use right now for focus.
所以我认为，如果有一种肽类物质可以安全使用，能够减少系统中的干扰，让人在不依赖兴奋剂的情况下更专注、更主动地分配注意力，那将会非常棒。
So I do think that if there is a peptide that can be taken safely, that can reduce the amount of noise in the system and allow people to be more focused and allocate their attention in a more deliberate way without having to take stimulants, I think that would be fantastic.
我觉得目前兴奋剂的使用过于泛滥了，而我本人可是喝很多咖啡的人，说实话，我也希望有一种药物能提升专注力，但你总得付出代价，要么影响睡眠，要么带来心脏问题。
I think there's an excessive amount of stimulant use, and this is coming from somebody who drinks a lot of caffeine and frankly would love to have a drug that could increase focus, but you always pay the piper somehow, either in sleep or in cardiac challenges.
我的意思是，你不应该如此频繁地过度刺激交感神经系统。
I mean, you don't want to stimulate the sympathetic nervous system so much for so often.
这可能会缩短你的寿命。
It can probably shorten your life.
五年后，积极的健康管理会是什么样子？
What does a proactive approach to health look like maybe five years from now?
你认为需要开发哪些技术来实现这一点？
And what technology do you think needs to be built to enable that?
换个说法，你好像已经在播客里讨论过每一个健康话题了。
Maybe put another way, like, you it feels like you've covered every single health topic on your podcast.
还在继续。
Still going.
你觉得2026年、2027年、2028年你会主要聊些什么？
What do you think you're gonna be covering in kind of '26, '27, '28?
是的。
Yeah.
我们还得做自身免疫和癌症方面的内容。
We need to do autoimmune, cancer.
我们还有很多事情要做。
We we've got a bunch of things to go.
但话说回来，这或许是个很好的机会，可以把阅读和写作融入生物学中。
But, yeah, I mean, maybe this is a good opportunity to kind of weave in reading and writing to biology.
比如阅读，人们现在都在戴睡眠监测设备。
So reading, I mean, people are wearing sleep sensors.
现在这很常见，对吧？
Is commonly done now, right?
但你还不能直接干预睡眠系统。
But you can't write to the sleep system yet.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我认为五年后，我们会回过头说：真不敢相信我们曾经那样。
I think in five years, we're gonna look back and we'll be like, can you believe it?
我们当时还靠降低室温来帮助入睡。
We were like cooling the room to try and fall asleep.
我觉得我们可能还是会用恒温床垫，但那会非常不可思议，因为应该有一种方法，可以通过手掌和脚底放置小型装置，更高效地降低身体核心温度。
I think we'll still have cooling mattresses, but like, it's gonna be so crazy because there should be a way that you could just put like a small like, can cool the core of the body more efficiently through the palms and the soles of the feet.
这背后是有原因的。
There's reasons for this.
那里的血管结构实际上缺乏毛细血管，所以你并不是直接冷却血液，而是本质上在更有效地散发热量。
The vasculature there actually lacks capillaries, so you can pass you're not really cooling the blood directly, but you're essentially dumping more heat.
这是斯坦福大学的一项酷炫技术。
This is a cool technology from Stanford.
我的意思是，不久的将来，你睡觉时手上或脚上戴着一个小装置，你的核心体温就会自然下降。
I mean, I think someday not long from now, you'll go to sleep with a little thing in your palm or on your feet, and your core body temperature will just drop.
是的。
Yeah.
你会戴上一个让眼睛左右移动的眼罩，六分钟内甚至更短时间就能入睡。
You wear an eye mask that's moving your eyes back and forth, and within six minutes or less, you'll be asleep.
早上醒来时，你打开这个装置，它会给你提供10000勒克斯的光照，然后你走出去。
When you wake up in the morning, you'll flip that thing on, it'll give you a burst of 10,000 lux light, and then you'll go outside.
这些技术实现起来非常简单，但目前没人真正去开发，因为我们觉得：‘哦，那就把整个房间降温好了’，或者‘我就在那边看个10000勒克斯的灯好了’——其实把这些设备直接贴合到身体上要容易得多，所以针对睡眠的生物学干预将会是一个重大突破。
These are trivially straightforward technologies to build, but no one's really building them right now because we're like, Oh, we'll just cool the whole room, and I'll look at a 10,000 lux you know, thing over there while I it's it's just it's so easy to move these things to the body, so writing to our biology around sleep is going be a big one.
我现在认为正在发生的其他读取技术，很快也会变成可干预的写入技术，比如我不只是希望看到实时血糖监测，更希望看到实时皮质醇监测。
The other forms of reading that I think are happening now that are soon going to be writing as well, Well, I'd love to see not just real time glucose sensing, love to see real time cortisol sensing.
早晨的皮质醇峰值。
Morning cortisol peak.
获得这一点，我的意思是，这对每个人来说都至关重要，无论男女，绝经前或绝经后，怀孕或未怀孕，儿童，你都需要一个显著的早晨皮质醇峰值，然后在下午晚些时候下降并保持在低水平。
Getting that, I mean, I can't overstate the importance of for everyone, women, men, premenopausal, postmenopausal, pregnant, not pregnant, kids, you want a big morning cortisol pulse, and then you want that to trough in the late afternoon and stay low.
如果你能做到这一点，你就赢了90%的比赛，但我们目前还没有实时的皮质醇测量手段。
You get that and you win 90% of the game, but we don't have real time cortisol measures.
人们
People
正在研究这些技术。
are working on these things.
就目前而言，对于我们的听众来说，已经有连续血糖监测仪了，它们会把一小段牙线样的装置植入皮肤下，实时监测血糖，通常用于糖尿病患者。
Like right now, for our listeners, there are continuous glucose monitors, and they put kind of a little piece of dental floss under your skin that monitors glucose in real time normally for diabetics.
但人们正在研发多生物标志物传感器，可以监测皮质醇或其他多种指标。
But people are working on kind of multi biomarker sensors that could tell cortisol or a variety of things.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为实时监测皮质醇会非常有意思。
I think that real time cortisol would be very interesting.
当然，你在一天中感到压力时，皮质醇会有一些小波动。
Of course, you'll get little blips of cortisol as you stress throughout the day.
真正的问题是，你能否在之后把皮质醇水平降下来？
The real question is, can you bring your cortisol back down afterwards?
如果这些皮质醇波动之后能回落，那就不是问题。
These blips in cortisol aren't a problem if they come back down.
有时，如果整个曲线稍微向右偏移，反而会导致更差的癌症预后和寿命缩短。
Sometimes if that whole curve gets shifted to the right a bit, it's actually worse cancer outcomes, reduced longevity.
有很多理由希望皮质醇的峰值足够高，然后在下午时降至低谷。
There are lot of reasons to want that cortisol spike really big and then have it trough into the afternoon.
所以这是我非常希望看到的一项技术。
So that's one that I'd love to see.
一旦你看到了这个数据，你就会知道，比如在下午五点或六点时。
And then once you see that, you know, if at five or six p.
M.
M.
你的皮质醇水平很高，你知道，你很想找到一种方法来降低它，你可以通过传统的办法，比如长呼气呼吸或短暂冥想，或者吃一些淀粉类碳水化合物来实现。
Your cortisol is riding high, you know, you'd love to be have a way that you could dial it down, and you could do that through conventional methods like long exhale breathing or short meditation, maybe eating some starchy carbohydrates.
人们常常忘记，皮质醇的主要作用是为身体调动能量。
People forget that cortisol's main job is to deploy energy in the body.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这就是为什么它会让你的血糖升高。
That's why it gives you a glucose bump.
淀粉类食物被称为安慰食品是有原因的，因为它们提供的能量有助于皮质醇水平下降。
And there's a reason why starchy foods, we call comfort foods, is that it provides this sort of energy that allows cortisol to come down.
这就是为什么很多遵循极低碳水淀粉饮食的人常常感到压力很大，或处于压力边缘。
This is why a lot of people who follow very low starch diets oftentimes feel really stressed or at the edge of stress.
除非我白天摄入了足够的淀粉，否则我很难睡好。
I can't sleep well unless I've had enough starches during the day.
有意思。
Interesting.
如果我今天没做任何运动，其实并不需要吃很多淀粉。
Now if I haven't done any exercise or anything, I don't really need many starches.
但如果你在进行力量训练，忙碌不堪，用脑过度，四处走动，到了晚上11点已经精疲力尽，倒头就睡，结果凌晨三点又醒过来——我敢打赌，如果你晚餐时吃了一碗米饭，睡眠质量可能会好很多。
But if you're weight training, you're busy, you're using your mind, you're moving about, then it's 11:00 at night and you're fried and you fall asleep, and then you're up at three in the morning, I'm willing to bet that had you had maybe a bowl of rice with dinner, you might actually sleep a lot better.
人们很少谈论这一点，尤其是在生酮饮食的背景下——虽然你确实会获得更多能量，但这可能会严重干扰你的睡眠。
People don't talk about this, especially in the context of ketogenic diets, which sure you'll have more energy, but it can really mess up your sleep.
你听到了吧，晚餐时完全可以吃碳水。
You heard it here, you can have carbs at dinner.
我太喜欢这个说法了。
Do I love that.
请一定要这么做。
Please do it.
求你了。
Please.
事实上，如果你要吃碳水化合物，最好是在力量训练后几小时内，或者睡前三到四小时，甚至睡前两小时左右。
In fact, if you're going to have carbohydrates at any time, it should be within a couple hours after resistance training, or maybe three, four hours before sleep, maybe even a couple hours before sleep.
那些大幅减少碳水化合物摄入的人，睡眠质量不会好。
People who reduce their carbohydrate intake too much are you're not going to sleep well.
就是不会。
It's just not.
远不如你摄入适量碳水时睡得那么好。
Not nearly as well as you could if you had some moderate carb intake.
显然，尽量不要在睡前太近的时间吃东西，是的。
Obviously, want to try not to eat too close to bedtime Yeah.
诸如此类。
And so forth.
所以我认为，整个肽类话题已经无法挽回了。
So I think that the I do think that the whole peptide thing is, you know, the horse is out of the stable.
我觉得五年后，你和我会小酌一杯。
I think in five years, you and I are going to have a little cocktail.
那会是一针或一片药，晚上结合一点松果素和其他成分。
It's going to be one injection or one pill, and it's going to be a little bit of pinealine at night combined with something else.
它会在早上发生，不管是什么东西，你不需要，当然，但 whatever 我需要来稍微提升我的多巴胺系统，确保我摄入足够的微量营养素，也许我会加一点 Clotho 来保护自己免受阿尔茨海默病的侵害。
It's going be in the morning, something, whatever it is that you need to, not you specifically, of course, but whatever I need to ramp up my dopaminergic system a little bit, to make sure that I'm getting enough micronutrients that maybe I'm going to put a little Clotho in there to protect me against Alzheimer's.
我的意思是，我认为所有这些都会变得很普遍。
Mean, I think all of that stuff is going to be commonplace.
就像人们不再害怕维生素D，或者会服用一些肌酸、镁一样，镁现在正成为下一波被广泛接受的补充剂，它们对大多数人来说足够安全，虽然不是所有人，但足够安全。
The same way that people are not afraid of vitamin D, or they're taking some creatine, or magnesium, people are taking magnesium's kind of the next wave of accepted supplements, think, that feel safe enough for most, not all people, but safe enough.
我认为大多数人将来都会这么做。
I think most everyone is going to be doing that.
而且我认为成本会低到足以让‘大多数人’这个说法成为现实。
And I think the cost is going to be low enough that that statement, most everyone, is a real statement.
我喜欢阅读与写作的区分。
I love the read versus write breakdown.
我认为在阅读方面，世界的发展方向非常清晰。
I think on the read side, it feels very clear where the world is going.
ChatGPT 已经是一位了不起的医生，比美国普通人能接触到的普通医生还要优秀。
Chad GBT is already an incredible doctor, better than an average doctor an American can get access to.
它今天对你一无所知，但我们现在正陆续上线健康信息交换系统，也就是构建一些能够整合你所有电子健康记录、可穿戴设备数据、血液检测结果和影像资料的系统，并实时将这些数据输入模型，从而在你出现症状之前就诊断出潜在问题。
It knows nothing about you today, but we have these health information exchanges coming online, you know, function or building something that pulls in, you know, all of your health records from EHRs, all of your wearable data, all of your function blood test results, your imaging, and feeds it into this model in real time where it's going to diagnose issues with you before you even feel symptoms.
我们在新冠疫情期间就看到了这种系统的雏形，当时人们的可穿戴设备在他们还没感到不适之前，就已经察觉到他们感染了新冠。
And we saw like the one point zero version of that in COVID when people's wearables kind of realized they had COVID before they even felt sick.
当我们拥有能够监测更多生理指标的连续血糖监测仪时，诊断和‘读取’方面的发展方向就显得非常清晰了。
And then when we have these continuous glucose monitors that can monitor a whole lot more, Like the diagnostics and read side feels like very kind of clear where the world is moving.
‘写入’这一侧则非常有趣。
The right is super interesting, the right side.
我认为，在这一领域，这个世界还有上百万种可能的发展路径。
And that's where I think there are a million more ways this world could go.
是的。
Yeah.
我从我作为神经科学家的经历中借用了这个‘读取与写入’的概念。
I borrow this read write thing from my life as a neuroscientist.
多年来，我们一直希望绘制出神经系统中各种细胞类型的图谱。
For many years, we wanted to chart the cell types of the nervous system.
这些连接是什么？
What are the connections?
所以你在关注硬件。
So you're looking at the hardware.
然后我们开始记录神经元，单个神经元、神经元群，细胞外、细胞内、钙成像、电压染料。
Then it was, let's record neurons, individual neurons, groups of neurons, extracellular, intracellular, calcium imaging, voltage dyes.
好的。
Okay.
现在让我们进行因果实验。
Now let's do causal experiments.
让我们抑制这些细胞的活动，或增强这些细胞在感知实验或行为实验中的活性，最好是在人类身上，对吧？
Let's quiet those cells, increase the activity of those cells in the context of a perceptual experiment or a behavioral experiment in humans, ideally, right?
但最初是在小鼠身上做的，还有大鼠、猫、猴子、蝙蝠。
But it was done first, mice, everything, rat, cat, monkey, bat.
但最初是小鼠，然后是非人灵长类动物，现在轮到人类了。
But it's got mice, and it was nonhuman primates, and now humans.
当我想到读取和写入我们的生理状态时，就像是先弄清楚正常的活动模式，然后找到简单的方法来实现所需的效果。
And so when I think about reading and writing to our physiology, it's like, let's figure out what the normal patterns of activity are, and let's have simple ways to implement what's needed.
稍微推动一下皮质醇的峰值。
Push that cortisol bump a little bit.
现在这还非常原始，简直可笑。
Right now, it's so crude, it's almost funny.
就像是，服用南非醉茄能减少这种草药吗？
It's like, oh, will ashwagandha reduce this herb?
降低皮质醇。
Reduce cortisol.
是的。
Yeah.
人们早上服用，这毫无意义。
People take it in the morning, that makes no sense.
你希望早上皮质醇水平升高。
You want cortisol elevated in the morning.
人们会在晚上稍微服用一点，是的，它能让他们稍微平静下来，但如果长期服用，可能会产生一些非预期的副作用，所以我总是说，不要长期服用高剂量。
People will take it a little bit in the evening, and yeah, it'll calm them down a bit, but if they take it for too long, it can start to have some off target effects, so I always say you don't want to take high doses for too long.
我们正在降低室温，很好。
We're cooling the room, great.
每个人都应该降低室温。
Everyone should cool the room.
我昨天在酒店把房间温度调低了。
I cooled the room in my hotel yesterday.
我超级、超级、超级喜欢Eight Sleep。
I love, love, love the Eight Sleep.
是的，他们是我的播客赞助商，但我认为这项技术非常出色。
Yes, they're a sponsor of my podcast, but I think it's a phenomenal technology.
以至于我旅行时会非常想念它。
So much that I miss it when I travel.
但最终，我们会通过它来降低体温。
But ultimately, we're going to be cooling the body through it.
只要让核心部位降温。
Just cool your core.
对吧？
Right?
我旅行时应该带个小装置放在脚上，再穿双能冷却核心的袜子，这样就能睡得更好，还能通过在醒来前一小时温暖你的身体和睡眠环境，来显著增加REM睡眠时间，而不依赖任何药物。
I should travel with a little thing I can put on my feet and a socks that'll cool my core so I sleep and wake me up by you know, one way to really improve the amount of REM sleep you get, not taking anything, warm your body in the last warm your sleeping environment in the last hour before you wake.
REM睡眠会增加。
REM levels go up.
所以你希望先保持凉爽，然后变得更冷，最后再变暖。
So you want it cool, then really cold, then warm.
我们不应该如此依赖外部设备。
We shouldn't be relying on external hardware so much.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我不用那些东西，所以我觉得眼罩之类的办法更好。
And I don't and so that's why I think the sleep mask thing, etcetera.
我也认为，这一切真正的终极目标是能够精准调节认知状态。
I also think the real holy grail in all this is the ability to dial in cognitive states.
我不确定，但我认识马特·麦克杜格尔，他以前在斯坦福时我就认识他，现在他在Neuralink。
I don't think I know I'm gonna Matt McDougall, who I knew when he was at Stanford now, is at Neuralink.
他非常出色。
He's phenomenal.
丹·亚当斯，我觉得他们那个团队非常棒。
Dan Adams, I think that group is terrific.
我觉得我们的朋友埃迪·张，加州大学旧金山分校的神经外科主任，非常了不起。
I think our friend Eddie Chang, chair of neurosurgery at UCSF, phenomenal.
读取和写入神经系统，但我认为在未来十年内，我希望能有人证明我错了，但我并不认为你的海马体会以两倍的速度提取两倍的记忆量之类的事情。
Reading and writing to the nervous system, but I do not think in the next ten years I'd love for them to prove me wrong, but I do not think that your hippocampus is going to be pulling in twice as much memory at twice the rate or something like that.
这根本不可能发生。
It's just not going to happen.
我们甚至还没有充分理解海马体在正常情况下是如何做到这一点的。
We don't even understand how the hippocampus does that under normal conditions well enough yet.
但我可以想象，戴上一副眼镜坐下工作时，你的视野会发生变化，同时有一种外部刺激，能提升你的专注水平。
But I can imagine putting on a pair of glasses to sit down and do some work, and your visual field goes, and there's some sort of level of stimulation, external stimulation, that brings your ramps up your level of focus.
你设置一个计时器，在接下来的四十分钟里，你会体验到那种只有在所有条件都完美时才偶尔出现的专注状态，并且在这四十分钟里专心工作。
You set a timer, and for the next forty minutes, you'll experience the kind of focus that you've only had a few times when you had all conditions right, and you'll work for that forty minutes.
然后你点击完成，摘下设备，去做别的事情。
And then you'll click that you're done, and then you'll take those things off, and you'll go do something else.
我喜欢这个想法。
I love that.
我试着让这种状态持续下去。
I try to keep That's that for coming.
这种技术正在到来。
That's coming.
我总是提到眼睛，比如通过移动眼球来帮助你入睡的睡眠眼罩之类的东西。
And I keep pointing to the eyes, like the sleep mask that moves the eyes to make you fall asleep, etcetera.
大多数对大脑和神经系统的干预，可能会通过迷走神经或某些表层刺激来实现，以产生镇静或其他效果。
Most of the access to the brain and nervous system is going to be maybe through the vagus through some superficial stimulation for calming effects or other things.
实际上，迷走神经刺激主要引起警觉，但也许某种非侵入性技术会变得足够先进。
Actually, vagal stimulation mainly causes alertness, but maybe some non invasive technology will get good enough.
目前我还没看到这种技术，但它正在到来。
Right now, I'm not really seeing it, but it's coming.
但通过眼睛、耳朵以及周围浅层神经来调节大脑状态的方法数量真是惊人。
But the amount of things that you can do to modify brain state through this region, just the eyes, ears, and the superficial nerves that run around there, is just phenomenal.
所以，如果我要个人投资于从事这类技术的公司，我会特别关注这个身体区域以及相关技术。
So if I were going to personally invest in any companies that were doing that sort of thing, that's the body area and the sorts of things that I'd be really focused on.
关于人工智能有个问题。
Question on AI.
你因将复杂的健康信息和研究提炼成人们容易理解的内容而声名鹊起。
You rose to prominence distilling complex health information and studies into something that people can understand easily.
现在，人工智能已经能相当好地做到这一点。
This is now something like AI can do quite well.
你怎么看这个问题？
How do you think about that?
你平时怎么使用人工智能？
How do you use AI in your day to day life?
我用Claude来考自己。
Well, I use Claude to quiz myself.
Claude在为我生成知识测验方面非常出色，所以我主要用它来做这个。
Claude is really good at generating tests for me on knowledge, so that's where I've been using it the most.
我很喜欢这个想法：一个我的AI版本或许能制作播客。
I love the idea that an AI version of me could potentially deliver a podcast.
这样我就能做其他事情了。
Would allow me to do other things.
我这话半是开玩笑的。
Sort of half kidding there.
我确定的是，有很多简单的方法可以生成一份清单，列出获得优质睡眠最重要的十件事。
Here's what I know for sure is that there are many easy ways to generate a list of the 10 most important things to do to get great sleep.
根据我们目前所知，确保大脑健康最重要的十件事。
The 10 most important things to do to ensure brain health given what we know.
生成一份清单非常容易。
It's very easy to generate a list.
但既然如此，为什么人们不直接去做这些事呢？
But given that, why don't people just do those things?
我认为这是因为人类大脑中存在某种特性，让我们采纳某种方法或改变行为的概率，不仅取决于我们亲身体验到该行为的有效性，还取决于我们获取这些信息的方式。
And I think it's because there's something about the human brain where the probability that we take on a protocol or change our behavior is highly dependent on, a, of course, the effectiveness of that behavior as we experience it, but also how we learn the information.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当你理解了背后的机制，我认为人们更有可能去实施这些建议，甚至可能改变整个方法的运作方式。
When you understand mechanism, I think it gives a higher probability that somebody is going to implement the advice, and it may even change the way the protocol works.
你可能会说这全是安慰剂效应或信念作用，但也许并非如此。
Now you could say that's all placebo or belief effect, but maybe not.
其中一部分也源于当你理解机制后所获得的灵活性。
Some of it is also the flexibility that's provided when you understand mechanism.
你明白，如果今天早上无法晒到太阳，明天多晒一会儿就行，因为这是一个累积系统。
You understand that if you can't get sunlight in the morning today, you just double up tomorrow because it's a summation system.
这并不是一个窗口，虽然如果连续错过太多天会变得有问题，但一旦你理解了它是如何累积光子等机制时，情况就不同了。
It's not it's a window that yes, if you miss for too many days, becomes problematic, but once you understand how it's summing photons, etcetera.
AI 很可能能够传递这些信息，但我不知道它是否能足够好地构建出来。
AI could probably deliver that information, but I don't know that it can build it well enough.
但也许我只是在说服自己，因为我并不喜欢被 AI 取代的想法。
But maybe I'm just telling myself that because I don't like the idea of being replaced by AI.
但我不确定。
But I don't know.
我的意思是，我可能会去搭建一个平台，让 AI 版本的我来完成这件事，所以我并不觉得‘剽窃’自己有什么问题。
I mean, I'd probably build the platform where the AI version of me was doing it, so I don't I don't have a problem poaching myself.
长寿逃逸速度。
Longevity escape velocity.
是的。
Mhmm.
你觉得这是现实还是幻想？
Do you think that's real or fantasy?
我的意思是，现在人们对长寿的定义有很多曲折的解释，试图说明：我并没有说我们会永生。
I mean, I think the way that people are defining longevity now, it's got a lot of pretzel twists in it to try and say, well, I didn't say we were going to live forever.
上传我的内容。
Upload my content.
如果我们谈论的是目前我们所拥有的这个物理身体，不包括任何植入的机器人结构，我认为基因的上限大约是120岁。
If we're talking about this physical body that we currently inhabit, minus any robotic architecture inserted, I think it's pretty clear that the genetic upper limit is about 120.
而对我们大多数人来说，可能更接近105岁。
And for most of us, it's probably closer to about 105.
所以好好照顾自己，目标是100岁。
So taking great care of ourselves, aiming for 100.
我觉得目标是100岁是我的座右铭。
I think aim for 100 is my motto.
只要目标是活到100岁且健康。
Just aim for 100 healthy.
我觉得这是可以实现的。
I think that's doable.
我非常兴奋。
I'm very excited.
我想这有点敏感，但我对斯坦福大学的托尼·韦斯·科里的研究感到非常振奋，他创办的公司Alqist现在已经出售，该公司探讨了年轻血液和运动后血液中的某些因子如何能 rejuvenate 大脑和身体。
I guess it's a little bit of an edgy topic, but I'm very excited by Tony Weiss Corey's work from Stanford, And he had a company that's now sold, Alqist, which talked about factors in young blood and in exercise blood that can rejuvenate the brain and body.
因此，运动后循环的一些因子确实非常有益。
So some of these factors that circulate after exercise are really beneficial.
是的，年轻血液中确实存在一些有益的因子。
And yes, there are factors in younger blood that seem to be beneficial.
这让人联想到吸血鬼之类的传说，但我们这里讨论的是合乎伦理的手段，前提是伦理地进行。
This gets people worried about vampires and stuff, but we're talking about ethical things here provided ethically.
当然，这些血液是被收集并合乎伦理地提供的。
Gathered and provided ethically, of course.
我觉得真正有趣的是，有一些蛋白质似乎确实具有 rejuvenating 的作用。
What I think is really interesting is that there are some proteins that really appear to be rejuvenating.
我还想，如果明天有人来找我说，安德鲁，为什么不把你运动后的血液收集起来，持续六个月，然后储存起来，这样如果你将来受伤，就能用上自己最健康的血液。
I also think if someone came along tomorrow and said, Andrew, why don't we collect your blood after exercising for the next six months, and let's just bank your blood so that if you ever have an injury, can get some really healthy of your own blood.
我会这么做。
I would do that.
从人工智能和这些可用技术的角度来看，这有点原始，但我们知道输血是有益的。
It's kind of primitive from the standpoint of AI and all these things being available, but we know that blood infusions are beneficial.
已经进行过这方面的临床试验。
There's been a clinical trial for this.
是的。
Yeah.
我们知道，运动后的血液输注更有益。
We know that blood infusions of exercise blood are even more beneficial.
我们还知道，在脑损伤或身体损伤后，血液中会循环一些不仅具有促炎性、而且对所有器官有害的物质。
We also know that after a brain injury or a bodily injury, that things that are not just pro inflammatory circulate in the blood that are bad for all organs.
所以我认为，一个门槛很低但很有用的技术是：在我现在50岁、比70岁时更健康的时候，储存大量我运动后的血液，这样到了70岁，我就能用上我年轻时的血液。
So I think a very low bar, but useful technology would be to bank a bunch of my own blood after exercise, I'm healthier now at 50 than I'm likely to be at 70, I would love my own blood at 70.
每周输一次就行了。
Just get an infusion once a week.
完全正确。
Totally.
我在接受谷胱甘肽和NAD输注之前会这么做，这可能没什么问题，但我不确定它能带来多大效果。
I do that before I get some glutathione NAD infusion, which is probably fine, but I don't know that it provides that much.
最后一个问题是。
Last question.
你养了一只章鱼吗？
You have a pet octopus?
我
I
我养。
do.
这很不寻常。
That is unusual.
是的。
Yeah.
跟我们说说它吧。
Tell us about him or her.
梵高。
Van Gogh.
梵高。
Van Gogh.
梵高。
Van Gogh.
是的。
Yeah.
它是一只《星夜》章鱼，所以叫梵高。
It's a Starry Night octopus, hence Van Gogh.
后来事情变得更诡异了，因为梵高在风扇里丢了一条触手，所以当我还在圣地亚哥的实验室时，还没搬到斯坦福，我研究的是另一种头足类动物——乌贼，它们就像水下的猴子。
And then it got even more eerie because Van Gogh lost one tentacle in the fan, so it was like a So when my lab was in San Diego before I moved to Stanford, I worked on a different cephalopod called cuttlefish, which are like little underwater monkeys.
它们非常聪明。
They're incredibly intelligent.
它们以擅长伪装而闻名。
They're known for being camouflagers.
它们的社会生物学中还有一个奇特的现象：雄性会伪装成雌性，潜入并与其他雌性交配。
There's also this twist in their sociobiology where the males will camouflage as females, infiltrate, and then mate with the females.
因此，我一直在研究它们的视觉。
So I was studying their vision.
它们非常有趣，因为它们拥有全景视觉，而且性格非常温顺。
They're very interesting because they can see in panorama, and they're very placid.
但当它们准备捕猎时，眼睛会移动到前方，产生深度感知和立体视觉来进行捕猎。
But then when they want to hunt, their eyes translocate to the front, and they generate depth perception, stereopsis to hunt.
我非常感兴趣的是，它们是否拥有两种视觉系统，我也对深度感知、捕食行为以及它们与身体状态的关系非常感兴趣。
I was very interested in whether or not they had two visual systems, and I'm very interested in depth perception and and prey capture and how that relates to bodily states.
只是为了把这一点和我们之前讨论的内容联系起来。
Just to weave this into what we were talking about earlier.
当你的双眼聚焦于一个点时，你的唤醒水平、能量和注意力都会提升。
When your eyes are focused on a single point, your levels of of arousal and energy, attention go up.
当你的视线放松，扫视房间的角落、天花板和地板时，往往会让我们进入更平静的状态。
When your eyes are sort of when your gaze is dilated, you're viewing the corners of the room and the ceiling and the floor, that tends to make put us into a calmer state.
有些动物只存在于其中一种状态。
Some animals only exist in one or the other.
我们人类是独特的，能够在这两种状态之间来回切换。
We we are unique that we can switch back and forth.
其他一些动物也可以，但我当时研究的是乌贼。
Some other animals can, but I was studying that in cuttlefish.
当我搬到现在的家时，我把一个画廊改造成了一处生活空间。
When I moved to my current home, I converted an art gallery into a living space.
我在楼下设了一个健身房和一个工作区，那里没有Wi-Fi，我也不把手机带下去。
I put a gym, I put a place to work downstairs where there's no Wi Fi, and I don't bring my phone down there.
我就是在那儿准备播客内容的。
That's where I prepare for podcasts.
我会画画，最近正在为我的书和一些其他项目绘制插图。
I do drawing, I'm doing some illustrations these days for my book and a few other things.
然后我就想，哦，我一直以来都很喜欢水族箱。
And then it's like, Oh, I've always loved aquaria.
我要养一个淡水神仙鱼缸，于是我弄了一个超大的淡水神仙鱼缸。
I'm going to put a freshwater discus tank, and I put a huge freshwater discus tank.
我觉得我又需要头足类动物了。
I was like, I think I need cephalopods again.
于是我养了一只章鱼。
So I got an octopus.
我养了一只星空章鱼。
I got a starry night octopus.
接下来我要对这只章鱼做点事情。
And here's what I'm trying to do with the octopus.
这和人工智能完全相关。
This has everything to do with AI.
我想让章鱼向我报告它在想什么。
I'm trying to get the octopus to report to me what it's thinking.
因为我认为它们非常聪明，我们常说它们就像外星生物。
Because I do think they're very intelligent, and we say, oh, they're like aliens.
它们太聪明了。
They're so intelligent.
但我们得到了它们的伪装能力。
But we get the camouflage.
它们非常有互动性。
They're very interactive.
但通过水下平板电脑、恰当的触屏技术以及人工智能，我希望能让这只或另一只章鱼传达一些它正在思考的内容。
But an underwater iPad and the appropriate use of touchscreen and AI, I'm hoping will allow this or another octopus to communicate something about what it's thinking.
那么，你打算怎么做呢？
Okay, so how would you do this?
对吧？
Right?
所以你不能直接套用典型的大型语言模型。
So you can't apply a typical large language model.
所以你必须根据颜色模式和伪装模式来进行。
So you have to do it based on the coloration patterns, on the camouflage patterns.
结果发现，人工智能可以通过将章鱼的行为与其伪装模式相关联来学习很多东西。
So it turns out AI can actually learn a lot by correlating the behaviors of an octopus with its camouflage patterns.
是的。
Mhmm.
一直以来的问题是，你必须在动物游动、捕食和做各种事情时实时进行这些分析。
The problem has always been that you have to do that in real time as the animal's swimming around, and hunting, and doing various things.
所以现在的挑战是，让它与能提供足够信息的刺激互动，这样这个模型——我不知道该叫它什么，我们还没有比我想得更聪明的人能想出一个不是大语言模型的名称，我不知道，也许是别的东西，与伪装模式相关的东西——能够开始揭示某些伪装模式与特定行为相关，而这些行为又与行为的细微差别相关，然后它就能开始自我学习。
So the challenge now is to get it to interact with stimuli that will give enough information so that this model, I don't know what we call it, we don't have someone more clever than I can come up something that's not LLM, don't know, something else, something related to camouflage patterns, could start revealing that certain camouflage patterns relate to certain behaviors, which relate to certain nuance in the behaviors, and then it could start teaching itself.
然后，这个想法是让人工智能向梵高或其他章鱼展示某些东西——我还有更多章鱼正在路上——以开始影响它们的行为。
And then the idea would be that the AI would present something to Van Gogh or another octopus, I've got more on the way, that would start to influence behavior.
可能不仅章鱼之间能进行对话，而且我还能说话，把它翻译成章鱼语言——不管你怎么称呼它——然后我们就能进行交流。
There could be not just conversations between octopi, but where maybe I could speak, it translate that into octopus, whatever you call it, and then we could communicate.
这就是这么做的原因。
And here's the reason for doing this.
明白吗？
Okay?
所以有一种观点认为，其他动物拥有很高的智慧。
So there's this idea that other animals have all this intelligence.
通常，我们通过行为或它们神经系统或身体的某些高度专业化的特征来衡量这种智慧，比如仓鸮，它们都能完成各种了不起的壮举。
Normally, we measure that through behavior or through some highly specialized aspect of their nervous system or body like barn owls, or they all do these fantastic feats.
或者你看到一些情况，比如我不喜欢看到的——哦，有人教会了章鱼弹钢琴，我确实看到过。
Or what you find, and I don't like it for instance when I see, oh, this guy taught an octopus how to use a piano, I saw that.
这并不有趣。
That's not interesting.
实际上，这仅仅说明人类多么愿意付出努力，去训练其他生物完成一些相对于人类能力而言非常基础的事情。
Actually, all that tells you, that tells you more about how hard humans are willing to work to train a different organism to do something pretty rudimentary compared to what humans can do.
这反映的完全是人类热衷于教其他动物变得更像人类的执念。
It tells you everything about humans' obsession with teaching other animals to be more human.
我感兴趣的是章鱼对世界的理解，以及它能否向我传达这些信息，因为这些是我所不了解的。
I'm interested in what the octopus understands about the world and can communicate that to me because I don't know that stuff.
我可以学会弹钢琴。
I can learn to play a piano.
我为什么要教章鱼弹钢琴呢？
Why would I want to teach an octopus to play a piano?
这太令人着迷了。
That's That's so fascinating.
我觉得你需要
I think you need
整个播客来详述你的经历。
a whole podcast outlining your experience.
是的。
Yeah.
也许当我们把HLP的话题都用完了，就会发生这种情况。
Well, maybe this is what happens when we run out of topics to put on the HLP.
我可能没有像应该的那样清晰地思考这个问题，但不得不说，在做面向公众的健康信息时，你能感受到一种饱和点，我们需要更多的技术和工具，我觉得这很好。
And I'm probably not thinking about this as cleanly as I could or should, but I have to say, just in kind of wrapping this monologue, you get to the point doing public facing health information where you can kind of feel the saturation point, and we need more technologies and tools, and I think that's great.
我真的很期待即将到来的一切。
I really am excited for what's coming.
但到了某个时候，对话会变得清晰，我们需要更多，对吧？
But at some point the conversations become clear that we need more, right?
然后你会想到整个庞大的动物智能领域，人们把这种能力归于头足类动物。
And then you think about this whole vast landscape of animal intelligence, and people have placed this thing on the cephalopods.
它们真的很聪明。
They're really smart.
我的意思是，它们可能像傻瓜一样，只是用色彩让我们眼花缭乱。
They know I mean, they might be idiots for all we know, just dazzling us with colors.
我不认为它们是傻瓜。
I don't think they're idiots.
我认为它们正在感知某种特定的感知领域，并根据我和其他人观察到的现象，认真思考其中的内容。
I think that they are accessing a certain perceptual landscape, and they're thinking hard about what's there based on things I've observed and others have observed.
但我们真的需要找到一种方法，让它们告诉我们它们在想什么。
But we really need to figure out a way to let them tell us what they're thinking.
太棒了。
Amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼，感谢你做客 a16z 节目。
Andrew Huberman, thank you for coming on the a 16 z show.
谢谢邀请我来。
Thanks for having me here.
感谢您收听本集 a16z 播客。
Thanks for listening to this episode of the a 16 z podcast.
如果你喜欢这集节目，请记得点赞、评论、订阅、给我们打分或写评价，并分享给你的朋友和家人。
If you like this episode, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, and share it with your friends and family.
如需收听更多节目，请前往 YouTube、Apple Podcast 和 Spotify。
For more episodes, go to YouTube, Apple Podcast, and Spotify.
在 X 上关注我们 @a16z，并在 a16z.substack.com 订阅我们的 Substack。
Follow us on x at a sixteen z, and subscribe to our Substack at a sixteen z dot Substack dot com.
再次感谢收听，我们下期节目再见。
Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.
提醒一下，此处的内容仅用于信息参考。
As a reminder, the content here is for informational purposes only.
不应将其视为法律、商业、税务或投资建议，也不应用于评估任何投资或证券，且并非针对任何a16z基金的投资者或潜在投资者。
It should not be taken as legal business, tax, or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a sixteen z fund.
请注意，a16z及其关联方可能也持有本播客中讨论的公司的投资。
Please note that a sixteen z and its affiliates may also maintain investments in the companies discussed in this podcast.
如需更多详情，包括我们的投资链接，请访问a16z.com/dislosures。
For more details, including a link to our investments, please see a 16z.com forward slash disclosures.
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